Pre-recorded Message by James about Attacks by Dan Corner (Once Saved, Always Saved)

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May 12, 2001

Rich Pierce introduces the relevant tapes that demonstrate the dishonest misrepresentation behind his attacks against James White. Corner claims that Dr. White was unwilling to debate him, which is backed up by careful editing of a secret recording, but the reality was that Corner refused to do any debates in which Dr. White did not agree to neglect to mention any aspect of the foundation of Reformed theology that would be used to refute Corner in a real debate.

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00:00: Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
00:08: Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation and now with today's topic
00:19: Here is James white and good afternoon. Ladies and gentlemen. My name is Rich Pierce sitting in for dr
00:24: White today and well, hey, you know, I'm Getting a little bit more settled in than I was last time around it had been a while before I'd sat in the big chair and Boy, I tell you
00:36: I gotta tell you, you know, you sit in this chair and this man has got so many gadgets on his computer
00:42: It's incredible. I'm sitting here looking the the weather report today in Phoenix is that it's currently 98 degrees humidity is 14 %
00:52: We're looking at a high of a hundred and four today with a low of 68 degrees Can you believe all this, you know, we even go as weathermen for Phoenix and everything.
01:00: It's it's incredible, but Anyway, we've had a little bit of a change of plan today.
01:06: The idea originally was that I was going to be interviewing. Dr Rick Walston whom we unfortunately haven't had opportunity or ability to get a hold of yet, and we're gonna have to delay that and maybe
01:19: Have a chat with him next week I was originally of the impression that dr.
01:26: White's response to mr Dan corner was about a half an hour long and that dr. Walston and I would have
01:33: Another hour to work with after that and then this morning I came in started setting up open up the file that dr
01:38: White left for me and it's an hour long and I really don't feel that I can give dr
01:44: Walston justice to be able to put all of his comments in there and be able to talk about all the things that we wanted to talk about in in a half an hour, so what we're gonna do is hopefully be able to reschedule that program and and and give that the kind of time that it deserves and Today, we're going to go through and listen to a pre -recorded program that dr.
02:05: White did for us before he left for Indianapolis, which is where he is today and Speaking at a cults conference, and we're going to Address an issue the latest if you will
02:21: Shot from Dan corner now if you're not familiar with Dan corner You may want to take a look at a guy or a website at a omen dot or web page at our website
02:32: A omen org forward slash and this is all caps. Oh s a s stands for once saved always saved
02:39: Dot and then lowercase html and that will give you an introduction to mr.
02:46: Corners Silliness in the meantime, I want to before we get started with this
02:54: This tape that dr. White made for us. I want to read an email that I got recently from a gentleman apparently mr corner in his latest shot across our bow has also decided to Email a bunch of folks regarding a a
03:12: Real audio tape that he's done An audio file that he's done and you're going to hear a portion of that today in dr.
03:21: White's commentary And I want to just read this for you real quick dear James. I recently received an email from Dan corners ministry
03:29: I'm not sure how or why but I did of course he's still challenging you to a debate
03:36: Here it is for your perusal Greetings in Jesus name We must we just put a new audio file up which gives solid clear evidence
03:44: Regarding who is not willing to debate the subject of eternal security. Is it Dan corner or Jim white?
03:51: Please see the following link and click on it and it gives the link the almost debate with James white on eternal security
03:59: According to true grace teaching eternal life is also a hope Titus 3 7 yet to be reaped to Galatians 6 8 and 9 in the age to come mark 10 through 30 to 10 30
04:10: For only the ones who persist in doing good Romans 2 7 and do not grow weary and give up Galatians 6 9
04:18: And then the gentleman comments after receiving this my advice And I think the exasperation that he's about to express is shared by a lot of folks
04:28: Simply debate him if you have the time and run the other issues
04:33: God sovereignty, etc in through the back door Well, I don't think that would fly and I think dr.
04:39: White's explanation of the matter would give clear and convincing evidence of that. So Warren if you're ready in the other room, let's go ahead and start.
04:48: Dr. White's comments. I Your character and I'm faced with such a dilemma even now as I respond to a recording
05:06: Made known to me recently by a friend of mine, Florida by mr. Dan corner. Mr.
05:11: Corner runs Evangelical outreach and for some reason since about 1998 at least mr.
05:18: Corner has decided that I'm a good target to shoot at and And for some strange reason he feels that it's
05:30: In his best interest to attack me and others, but especially me these days seemingly on the subject of My belief in the perseverance of the
05:41: Saints or what he calls once saved Always saved back in 1998.
05:46: I had received a note from him Says again my original offer stands
05:52: I will gladly debate the subject of my new book with you Maury Hunt Ankerberg or Hanegraaff Please do not tell anyone
05:57: I'm unwilling or misrepresent me in some other Way and then in August of that year
06:05: I got a note from him that said I'm having a radio interview out of California in about a week and a half
06:11: I plan to expose you and others as Some who have refused to publicly debate me on the subject of once saved always saved in an equally timed
06:18: Fair exchange of ideas, of course, if you change your mind by then I won't include you along with the others But I sincerely doubt that you will since you apparently are afraid to debate this particular issue with me signed contending for the faith
06:32: Jude 3 & 4 Dan corner Well my response to him even though it is on our website if you'd like to read it
06:39: I think is relevant because it really nothing has changed. It's just a mr. Corner has now by the use of digital editing and very unfairly
06:52: Misrepresenting events of June of last year 2000 He has again launched an attack upon me
06:59: That is simply deceptive and I believe the facts as they'll be presented to you will
07:04: Demonstrate that and I will then allow you to decide what that means in regards to the honesty integrity
07:12: And credibility of mr. Corner. This is my response to mr Corner back in 98 and it's us remains just as valid today
07:21: Hi again, Dan been a while since I've gotten a note from you You need to realize Dan that the number of folks talking about exposing me for this or that is
07:29: Legion Just do a good web search on my name sometime You've got your Roman Catholics and your
07:34: Mormons and your Jehovah's Witnesses and your atheists and especially your King James only type folks The list is long and distinguished.
07:40: So someone threatening to expose me is almost humorous However, what is not humorous is the fact that you know, the statement is untrue while you claim your book is irrefutable
07:52: You know that I have invited you to debate I invite you to debate on the fundamental issues that give rise to the one topic you have made your life's work or so It seems
08:02: I have explained logically and biblically that the issue of the perseverance of the Saints or the perfection of Christ's work as Savior is based upon more fundamental questions specifically the sovereignty of God in election and Predestination and the nature of man is sinner specifically his deadness and sin
08:19: You have refused to debate those issues against me insisting that I skip past the fundamental issues of disagreement and Debate an issue that can never be resolved unless the basics are covered first.
08:31: I would like in your position Dan to that of a person who insists that I debate him on the subject of the procession of The Holy Spirit without first addressing the issue of the
08:39: Trinity itself In fact, I recently got a series of emails from a fellow who denies the deity of Christ and the person of the
08:44: Holy Spirit Now wouldn't you agree that it'd be very silly of me to debate this person on whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the
08:50: Father and the Son without first discussing the more fundamental issues of the deity of Christ and of the holy personality of the
08:56: Holy Spirit and the Trinity itself Such seems obvious in the same way as I have explained to you
09:01: The perseverance of the Saints is a divine truth plainly presented in passages such as John 6 37 through 40
09:08: But any meaningful discussion requires that the foundation of the truth be debated that being the ability and willingness of God to save perfectly in Christ Jesus said that it was the
09:19: Father's will that he lose none of those given to him by the Father if You deny the Father is even able to give any to the
09:26: Son so as to entrust their salvation to his hands You are obviously not going to see or accept the teaching of such passages
09:34: So Dan, let's be honest I do radio programs all across the United States on a weekly basis if I want to threaten folks with Exposure as you have done to me
09:42: I could do it with far more regularity than you could ever hope to do but I refuse to behave in such a manner I know
09:47: I've invited you to debate the real issue and you have declined preferring to stay with the one issue You have made your crusade in life
09:53: If I wanted to go on nationwide radio and expose Dan I could do it But I have no interest in such things
09:59: I know and you know and most importantly God knows that I've responded to your challenge in a biblical and logical manner
10:05: If you were an honest man, you will say on that radio interview James White being the Reformed theologian
10:11: He is has insisted that we debate election Predestination and the deadness of man in sin before addressing the issue of the perseverance of the
10:18: Saints and I have declined his invitation If you are not an honest man, you won't bother being accurate in what you say in either case
10:27: Dan God knows the truth I hope you will do what is right? So that was sent to mr.
10:33: Corner in 1998 and Really the situation pretty much stayed exactly like that until June of the year 2000 when
10:43: I went to st. Louis and what I would like to do is just give you a brief background and Then I am going to play a little less than a half hour segment of the program
10:55: That I appeared on the Tim and Al program that is on I believe KJ SL in st.
11:00: Louis and Let's you hear for yourself. What took place now. The problem is you're not going to hear
11:06: Dan corner on that program And here's why what happened was The people who were bringing me out
11:14: Arranged to have me on the program to talk about the Potter's freedom which had just come out a few weeks before that and I said that would be fine
11:23: I had been on with Tim and Al on the phone a number of times and so being in studio Since I was right there in st.
11:29: Louis. Anyways would be fine a Few days before I headed out to st. Louis. I was told by the folks who are arranging it
11:35: Hey, they're looking at possibly having an Armenian to debate you. Well, okay, whatever.
11:41: I'm used to that too then the day before I left as I was packing we were in our chat room and One of the fellows who was involved in bringing me out said hey, they've they've gotten someone to debate you
11:52: I said, okay Who's that? Well a guy named Dan corner And I said Dan corner.
11:58: He's not gonna debate me on the issue of my book Well, he wants to debate you on One saved always saved and I said, ah, don't you realize?
12:08: Dan corner has been invited to debate me before and he will not debate anything But just his narrow view of the evangelical view of one saved all was saved.
12:18: He will not deal with the real issues He will not deal with the sovereignty of God divine election.
12:24: He will not deal with unconditional election he won't deal with the atonement he won't deal with any of those things and This this isn't gonna happen.
12:31: I can just guarantee it's not gonna happen. So I flew out st. Louis and we went into the radio station next morning and I walk in and sit down in the studio and It's a little bit different at KJSL that the two hosts are in a different studio
12:47: You're actually in a separate so you can see them through a window, but you're not in the studio with them a little bit unusual and The first thing
12:55: I'm given is a fax of a contract That mr.
13:01: Corner has faxed the station. I've never seen anything like this before I've This first time anyone who was good to be doing a radio discussion that I've ever seen a faxed contract
13:13: I have done more radio debates than than I can possibly imagine Just did debates on homosexuality and abortion on the radio and it never crossed my mind to send a contract
13:27: That I'd be asking the other person to sign That would say things that would they would say what they could and could not discuss it just I don't know
13:36: I just don't think like that and So I started reading through this contract and and Tim and Al weren't happy about it
13:42: I started reading through this contract and I get to the point that says that the subject will be once saved always saved and the
13:49: Discussion will not go into any of the other points of Calvinism. So immediately what you've got here is
13:56: Mr. Corner saying I won't debate a Calvinist on this subject Instead I will tell the
14:02: Calvinist what he must believe and I will force him to debate what
14:08: I'm comfortable debating Because I'm not comfortable debating what he believes I want him to debate what
14:13: I'm comfortable to believing so I'm gonna try to get him to sign a contract That says that he will not
14:21: Present his own position because that's what it is Any logical or rational person can recognize that to tell someone you will not discuss any other element of this is
14:34: Absolutely positively absurd. It makes no sense. And so I said to him guys
14:40: Look, I I was asked to talk about the Potter's freedom. This contract says I can't This contract says
14:46: I can't address those issues at all. I Signed this contract.
14:55: This is absurd and no person their right mind would sign this. This is this is a joke and So they tried talking to mr
15:01: Corner and the producer tried talking to mr Corner and then Tim and Al for some reason wanted me to talk with mr.
15:07: Corn. I think I spoke with him twice And what I'd like to do by the way, it's very obvious as we will hear a little bit later on Mr.
15:12: Corner recorded all of this on the phone. I Don't remember him telling me he was doing that. Maybe you did I don't remember but if he has the whole tape
15:20: I would like to challenge. Mr Corner right now and I would like to ask anyone who's actually interested in this to contact mr
15:26: Corner and to challenge him his website's evangelical outreach one word org. There's an email thing down at the bottom.
15:33: Just click on it and Send him an email and say mr. Corner make available
15:39: The tape of all of the conversation because see, you know, what's really sad.
15:45: Is it in this? Audio file has been placed on the internet by mr. Corner He only plays one little section and he stops it.
15:54: He I mean you can hear it. It's it'll it's very plain We hear he stops it in the middle of what
15:59: I'm saying He is making the statement why I know that you you would not to debate this subject without discussing the other issues of Calvinism and I say of course and then
16:09: I went on and explained that it has been explained to him more than once All he does is just quote the words, of course then stops it cold in the middle of a sentence
16:19: I Want to challenge Dan corner play the whole thing?
16:26: Let your listeners let your followers know you had to stop it right there because the simple fact matter is folks
16:31: What you'd hear after that and what you'd hear and everything that I said to mr Corner and what you're going to hear on the radio program is
16:39: Exactly what I had said to mr. Corner in the letter that's been posted on our website since 1998.
16:47: I Didn't change anything and my debate challenge to mr. Corner still stands if he will actually debate the whole issue, which he absolutely positively refuses to do and So this conversation took place.
17:03: Mr. Corn said, okay. I'm not gonna do it. I If you won't sign the contract if you won't say that you won't discuss any other elements of Calvinism Then I'm not gonna do it.
17:12: And so he wasn't on the program And so we just had an interview on the subject of the Potter's freedom. What's fascinating then is that a lady called in you'll hear the call and She and her husband
17:26: I believe have a radio program on the same station and they're big fans of Dan corner and She wanted to call in and say
17:34: I had ducked the debate Now you'll hear what happens, but the fast Absolutely fascinating thing is mr.
17:42: Corner in his audio file, which we're gonna play for you as well play the whole thing for you Faults me
17:49: Because I have never responded the invitation That took place on that radio program the the radio program hosted by these other folks to be on there to debate.
18:00: Mr Corner on once saved always saved He does sort of mention that it did play hours later
18:07: What he doesn't mention is it comes on at midnight? So in other words,
18:13: I guess this is so important that even though I'm traveling I'm ministering at a church
18:19: I'm staying in a hotel That I was supposed to take time to go buy a radio and stay up to midnight and beyond To listen to Dan corner on a
18:32: Great a call -in talk program that airs at midnight. That's what
18:37: I was supposed to do Well, you know what? I was doing the midnight folks. I was
18:43: I was sleeping That's that's generally what I tried to do at midnight. I think it's good thing to be doing is sleeping
18:50: So it was it's it's amazing What mr. Corner is saying?
18:55: But I think that the the facts will will show that Well, there's there's just a little bit of desperation here.
19:02: So what I'm gonna do first is I would like to play for you the 26 minutes 55 seconds of the
19:11: Tim and Al show and With the issue with mr. Corner will come up but notice what the actual subject of The discussion is it's
19:20: Calvinism because that's what they asked me to do. So let's listen in Jane White has put together the the new book the
19:28: Potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal of Norm Geisler's chosen but free and You know, it kind of surprises me.
19:38: Although I haven't read Norm Geisler's book, but I have I have With only one exception and that is just an answer that he gave in in one of his question -answer books
19:49: I have not been disappointed by Norm Geisler's work good research good, man Well, yes and and Norman and I have been
19:56: Very friendly with one another we've had more than one dinner and lunch together And I hope that that friendliness can continue but there needs to be a discussion of important issues
20:05: I knew that chosen but free is coming out In fact, ironically chosen but free is published by my own publisher
20:11: Bethany house publishers, you know, I have many books The Forgotten Trinity the King James only controversy all of that stuff
20:18: But Norman and I are on opposite sides this issue and I think it is a healthy thing
20:23: When people can disagree in a way that is respectful You will not discover any ad hominem attacks upon Norman Geisler as an individual in this book
20:33: It is focused upon the issue and the issue is the issue of the Reformation and that is does
20:39: God save by his grace? alone or does God attempt to save making grace one of two forces involved in salvation and the great issue of the
20:48: Reformation was between the Technological or theological terms or monergism and synergism monergism the idea that God's grace actually accomplishes what he intended to do in the saving of his elect people and Synergism being the idea that God's grace cooperates with and works with man's will to bring about salvation at some times
21:09: But in other times not to bring out salvation so that grace can try to save but at times fail to do so Okay The one thing that confuses me on on irresistible grace
21:20: Explain that for folks who are not familiar with that Well, I think you need to go back a little bit because just as you can't immediately jump into discussion of the perseverance of the
21:29: Saints for example Irresistible grace is a is a point down the line of argumentation the the position that I espouse and defend as being the
21:39: Consistent biblical presentation is that you have a sovereign God who is the potter who creates?
21:44: Mankind that you have man who has fallen into sin who is as a result enslaved to sin and spiritually dead
21:51: You have the decree of God that is Unconditional to save and elect people for his own grace in his own glory not for anything that they have done in fact
22:00: And not any person who has ever saved deserves it earned it bought or did anything else that God is glorifying himself and himself
22:07: Alone in bringing about that salvation that Christ dies perfectly in their place bearing their sins in his body on the tree
22:14: And then the phrase irresistible grace simply means that when the time comes in God's sovereign decree
22:20: That the dead sinner is going to be raised to spiritual life that that grace that accomplishes that cannot be
22:28: Resisted by the dead sinner in the same way that when Christ comes to the grave in John 11 and says
22:33: Lazarus come forth There's no argument on Lazarus's part when Jesus Christ says
22:39: Lazarus come forth Lazarus comes forth well Here's here's where I get confused on this because I'll give you my testimony readers digest condensed version
22:46: I was a religious teenager I I would read my mom would read me
22:52: Bible stories not was not read in a Christian home about Daniel and all these people who stood up for their faith, and I thought
22:58: I could do that and so I was a good sinner I tried hard I thought
23:04: God grated on the curve, and I had a girlfriend and I compromised there But I thought that my good works would certainly outweigh my bad points, and then when
23:12: I heard the gospel August 16th 1971 I was first of all mad because I've been doing good works for nothing
23:20: And I was thinking of all the fun. I was missing and the second thing that was going on in my head is
23:27: I know I need and and I need to acknowledge this But I don't want to do that right now and John Gregory kept saying today is the day of salvation today
23:38: They call and so I finally Received Christ to get rid of the guy because he was he was irritating me
23:46: So I didn't we talked about irresistible grace. I I did not want to get saved.
23:52: Okay, and it is a thing I Maybe I'm proving my own point. I think my mind
23:58: I'm I am resisting and I'm resisting and I'm resisting and and finally
24:05: Not a genuine conversion mind you it's to get rid of the guy, but it's stuck, and I don't know if that makes sense
24:10: Well, I think you need to remember that the most fundamental issue here that that unfortunately is not discussed a whole lot in our modern
24:16: Text is what the Bible teaches about what sin does to man the scriptures say in Romans 3 11
24:22: There is none who seeks after God Now talk about going against the grain of our modern culture where we build entire churches on the idea
24:29: There's all sorts of people who are doing exactly that But the scriptures teach us that man outside of regeneration man who is dead in sin
24:36: Man who is as Jesus taught in John chapter 8 enslaved to sin is the enemy of God he does not have anything within him that would present to his will godly desires and therefore any type of desire that a person has any type of of Desire the person has to read the
24:53: Bible or to go listen to I didn't catch the name of the person you mentioned but to go hear a person preach or whatever it might be he came to me comes from God and When God raises a person to spiritual life
25:04: He gives them a new nature that new nature is one that loves Jesus Christ That new nature is not one that is is that does it not mean that a person has immediate full understanding of everything there is
25:14: No in the Bible We're not born in the family of God with a with a THD in theology to where we we understand everything there is to know but we know who
25:21: Christ is we know what our need is we know what sin is and The desire of our heart is to be obedient to Christ and to follow him as best we understand that and that's why we go
25:30: To the word that's why God has given us the church That's why God has given us people to teach us and to mentor us and so on so forth
25:36: So when we're talking about irresistible grace What we're saying is is that if God chooses an individual to bring them into salvation that at a point in time and I don't know
25:45: I can't look at you and you can't look at me and know when that point in time was But that God is going to do a work in your heart, and he's going to raise you to spiritual life
25:53: He's going to give you the gifts, and this is another area of Controversy the gifts of faith and repentance that faith is something that is done by a person who is spiritually alive not by this person
26:03: Who's spiritually dead and that as a result this individual is going to be saved infallibly by the work of Christ in his place?
26:11: And everything that I do as a Christian is a response to what God has done for me What you were doing was response to what the
26:18: Spirit of God was doing in your heart And when that took place I cannot tell you I've counseled many a person said you know as a young person
26:25: I had strong religious experiences Then during my teenage years and this was my experience during my teenage years for about three or four years
26:31: You wouldn't have recognized me as a Christian And yet God drew me back to himself
26:37: And I do not believe that I was saved and lost and saved and lost and all the rest of this stuff
26:42: I believe God has been faithful to me since since you mentioned a specific date March 15th 1967
26:49: I believe that God has been faithful to me I have not necessarily lived a life at all those times that has been honoring to him
26:57: But he kept me from doing anything that would be greatly dishonoring to him during that period of time He's been faithful to me and the testimony of Scripture is
27:04: God is faithful I'm so glad that when Paul writes to the Philippians or when he writes these others
27:09: He says my confidence is in what is it in you is it in the Philippians know my confidence is in the
27:15: God Who has begun a good work within you and I think that really goes back to the primary and fundamental issue
27:21: And that is does God save perfectly or does God attempt and try to save does the triune
27:26: God? We've all done my book The Forgotten Trinity last week. We did a debate on oneness Here we have
27:32: God the eternal Father Decreeing the salvation of an individual the Sun dying to assure it the
27:39: Holy Spirit coming to bring spiritual life Are we going to say that the work of the triune God can be frustrated and stopped mighty will of the creature?
27:48: That is the fundamental issue, and I do not believe that the Scriptures teach us that the will of the creature
27:54: Overrides the will of the Creator. I believe God is the Potter We are the pots and that's why
27:59: Ephesians 1 Romans 8 and 9 John 6 They're all right there in Scripture in fact if we have a few moments
28:06: I'd like to make sure that we at least get an opportunity to look at one of those passages John 6 37 through 39
28:11: I think is why don't you do that now go ahead well? You know I remember once sitting down with a fellow And he wanted to talk about these things and I turned to Ephesians 1 he said notion if you don't show it to me in Red it is isn't there and he had hit a disease of hyper red letterism
28:25: And but it is there in the red and in John chapter 6 he was of Jesus exactly the red the red letters of the
28:31: Bible Which no one ever actually dreamed of doing until about a hundred years ago, but anyways
28:36: Jesus taught very clearly in the synagogue in Capernaum and he had 5 ,000 people who had just watched him do a miracle and I mean talk about flunking a church growth class
28:46: Jesus has 5 ,000 people chasing around and by the end of his sermon he has 12 I mean he's driven them all away because he directs them to himself
28:54: And he says you people need to come to me to have freedom and they're offended by that And in John chapter 6
29:00: Jesus says these words all that the father gives me Will come to me and the one who comes to me
29:06: I will certainly not cast out for I have come down from heaven not to do my own will
29:12: But the will of him who sent me and this is the will of him who sent me that of all that he has given me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
29:18: We've got to hear those words gentlemen These are the words the Lord Jesus Christ And he says to us first of all all that the father gives him will come to me not some
29:27: Not a major portion of all that the father gives me will come to me and the giving of the father in the language must precede the coming of the person to Christ all who are given by the father to the son as a
29:43: Result of that being given come to the son and as a result of that the one who comes to me
29:49: I will certainly not cast out. That's why I said a number of minutes ago
29:54: I cannot discuss the perfection of the work of Christ's salvation why it lasts without dealing first with the foundation of why that is
30:04: Eternal security is the last phrase of verse 37 But you never ever discuss a sentence by cutting it in half
30:10: And so it is one whole all the father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me
30:16: I will certainly not cast out and then in verses 38 and 39. This is beautiful We have the incarnate
30:21: Lord Jesus who is eternally existed Telling us what the father's will for him is we are given an insight here into the very internal workings of the
30:31: Godhead itself And the son tells us that it's the father's will for him that of all that he's been given
30:38: He not lose anything, but raise it up on the last day now Let me ask you something guys If the
30:44: Lord Jesus says the will the father of him is that he lose none that are given to him here
30:49: My questions does Jesus always do the will of the father? Yeah, is Jesus able always to do whatever the father would do if I said to you guys
31:00: Hey, I I'm teaching Hebrew for Golden Gate Seminary this fall I teach Greek one year Hebrew the next year and if I said, you know what?
31:07: I need you guys to fly out to Phoenix on a particular night when I'm teaching Hebrew and fill in for me and teach the
31:13: Nif all verb forms in the Hebrew language Would that be wise for me to ask you to to team teach that well, we'd love to go out to Phoenix But would
31:24: I be much of a wise professor to ask you to to fill in for me and teach Hebrew We probably wouldn't say anything until we got
31:33: Obviously that would not show a lot of wisdom on my part, but we recognize in John chapter 6 This is the all -wise
31:39: God Expressing his will for the son So obviously if the son always does the will of the father and the father is not going to ask anything of the son that the
31:47: Son cannot do Therefore as a result I as I I insist that the words of the
31:52: Lord Jesus are that all that the father gives him Have absolutely positively no possibility of not being saved for one simple reason not because of anything in them
32:02: But because Jesus Christ is Capable and will always do the will of the father and that must mean that his work on the cross
32:11: Actually accomplishes the means by which he can save all those that are given to him Now would you agree with DL Moody the the whosoever wills are the elect and the whosoever won't so the non -elect?
32:22: Yes from our perspective. I would agree that that is how we perceive things But remember when we talk about whosoever will the scripture tells us in the very same passage in John 6 44
32:32: No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day
32:38: So there is an inability because of as Jesus said he who commits sin is the slave of sin
32:44: Jesus has to liberate us. He has to free us from that slavery. And so when we talk about the whosoever wills
32:50: I Will to come to Christ but I will to come to Christ because Christ has first freed me from the slavery of sin and Drawn me to himself by his sovereign grace and that that really
33:03: I think Gentleman is the reason why you're looking at the only person who since 1984 has been standing outside the gates of the
33:11: LDS temple in Salt Lake City during every single general conference the Mormon Church There's nobody who doesn't believe this.
33:18: It's been standing out there passing out tracts and sharing the gospel You know why because they say oh those are the hard cases.
33:23: Those are the tough folks guys My god is not stopped by any power in heaven earth when he decides
33:30: By his sovereign grace to save one of his elect people Mormonism can't stop him and the
33:35: Watchtower Society can't stop him and the New Age can't stop him Nothing can stop him when the spirit comes to bring spiritual life to that person
33:42: He's gonna do it and that's why we're the only ones that are up there But haven't you found that many of our friends who take the
33:48: Calvinist position say well I don't know I might be leading somebody the Lord who doesn't belong to the Lord No, I've never heard that from a from a person who understands that because I can't do that I can elect is and you know
33:59: Yeah I don't know who the elect is and that's why I can proclaim the gospel to everyone and leave and see I don't have to Shave off the rough corners of the gospel because since Christ has his elect
34:11: He has his sheep his sheep hear his voice. They will not be offended by his truth So I don't have to shave off the corners of the gospel and try to make it more palatable to modern man
34:21: I can preach the entirety of the gospel knowing that Christ's sheep hear his voice and they'll follow but remember in John chapter 10
34:27: Jesus says the Jews the reason you don't hear me is because you're not of my sheep. Yeah You're your father the devil.
34:34: Yeah. Yeah. All right. We'll take your calls now at nine six nine sixty three hundred
34:39: Give us a call. You're gonna be talking with James White the author of the Potter's freedom What's with the dudes at the door the
34:45: Forgotten Trinity so many other great books. Give us a call nine six nine sixty three hundred
34:50: Good morning, Kathy. Good morning. It's a shame that he declined the interview with mr.
34:55: Corner. No, I don't know what happened was Mr. Corner wanted it limited to eternal security and as James pointed out
35:03: James Why don't you go ahead and explain to Kathy by the way, Jerry and Kathy will have Dan corner on at midnight tonight
35:08: Go ahead. I think it'd be good to explain what happened there. First of all, I had no idea that mr Corner was arranged until yesterday.
35:16: I would have explained to everyone if they look at our web page www .aomin .org that Mr.
35:23: Corner has challenged me to debate that issue before and I said sure I will but first we'll do we need to discuss the Sovereignty of God and we need to discuss the deadness of man and sin
35:31: Because any reformed person such as myself believes in the perseverance of the Saints not because of anything in ourselves because the perfection of work of the work of Christ in our behalf and So it is a it is an artificial thing.
35:44: It's basically asking me to defend something. I don't believe to defend the eternal security of the believer without for example reading
35:51: John 637 and Since nothing had been said to me. No one had asked me. Okay, are you willing to?
35:57: To do this anything else? When when we saw the quote -unquote contract that was faxed over that said no other issues of Calvinism will be discussed
36:06: I said hey, you're asking me to believe something that I don't believe and that's that's not what I was asked to do
36:11: And it was mr. Corner that made the decision that he would not desire to do that So I think it's important that that that is understood
36:18: I would be glad to debate Dan corner in a public setting if he would be willing to debate the actual issue and the issue is
36:27: Is there a a divine decree of God whereby he has an elect people is man dead in sin?
36:33: And is the result of the work of God and behalf the elect people such that they cannot fall from that position
36:39: That is theirs. Okay with that in mind. May I just make a Brief comment here and then you can come in after that, but I just like to say that Calvin's heart was not spiritually enlightened, but rather darkened as a result of his murderous unrepentant hate for servitude
36:54: He was spiritually incapable of rightly dividing the word of truth and furthermore
36:59: Calvin's teachings declared Jesus work on the cross was in infinite because according to that teaching
37:06: He did not shed his blood for every human, but only for the elect. Well, there's a couple things there.
37:11: Let's let's interact I think it's important Kathy that we interact because when when you say things it's important that both sides are
37:18: Able to address that and it would be interesting to hear your responses now I am very familiar with the cervidis incident and you are aware.
37:26: I would assume that Martin Luther Had agreed to the death penalty for Anabaptist long before the cervidis incident that in point -of -fact
37:35: Cervidis have been condemned by the Inquisition He had escaped the night before his burning by the Inquisition that every one of the
37:40: Swiss Cantons agreed that he had to die as a heretic against the state and that while I myself
37:47: Probably would have found myself in prison in Geneva that if you use the standards you're using
37:53: There was no one prior to about the 16th century That you could point to as a Christian after the time of Augustine Because during that period of time you had the state church and I would agree the state church is wrong
38:05: However to make the statements you do and to judge his heart I think is is completely and totally erroneous and ignores not only what cervidis attempted to do but the fact that cervidis wanted to go to Geneva and to take on Calvin and Tried to get
38:18: Calvin in prison and put to death. So let's let's deal with all the facts there Okay, the problem with that though is once again, there's no way a
38:26: Baptist knows. He's elect. He doesn't even know Well, that's not the issue. We were just discussing and since you moved on to another one
38:31: Let me address the second issue that you raised and that was that was the issue of the Atonement There's a difference between what you said and what the facts really are
38:40: Let's let's try to lay them out the doctrine the Atonement laid forth by Calvin and I would say by earlier church fathers and I believe very clearly in the book of Romans is that the death of Jesus Christ is
38:51: Infinite in its ability to save all those for whom it is made. The question has to be asked. What was God's intention?
38:58: To save well, if you just you can call it absurd if you'd like But the question is of no effect to anyone's salvation
39:06: Well again, you're putting predestination before the cross of Jesus Christ and all well
39:11: Actually, the cross of Jesus Christ was predestined according to Acts chapter 4 verse 28 and not mankind
39:16: Oh, well again, let me let me just explain what we're trying to talk about here I think it's very important that we understand that the book of Hebrews tells us that by one
39:24: Sacrifice upon the cross Jesus Christ perfects forever all those who are sanctified the death of Jesus Christ actually
39:32: Accomplishes something it's not merely theoretical It does not fail at any point in time in behalf of anyone for whom it is made.
39:39: So I think Ma 'am, ma 'am, could we talk about one subject at a time?
39:44: could I ask you possibly if you do believe that Jesus Christ bears the sins of any particular individual and yet fails to bring
39:51: About their redemption. Is that your position? It's it is a mutual agreement that we join to the cross a
39:59: Mutual agreement, right? We come to the cross to die That is where we die and there we receive the heart of Christ to live the life of Christ in us
40:09: Okay, but could you answer my question please that cross is actually blasphemy could could you ask can you answer my question, please?
40:16: Is it your position that Jesus Christ purposefully took on the sins of let's come up with an individual
40:22: Let's let's call this person John Smith. Okay, let's talk about specific individual John Smith That it is
40:28: Christ intention to save John Smith by he bore all of his sins and their punishment on the cross in their behalf and Even though those sins have already been punished once it is your position that Christ can fail to save this individual and that in point
40:43: Of fact that individual will be punished a second time for the same sins that Jesus was punished for in hell for eternity
40:49: Is that what you're saying Paul said Paul said I don't preach anything But the cross him crucified and that is our life a crucifixion the life of suffering to deny ourselves
41:00: To turn from our ways into yes Well as Paul said in Galatians 2 20 said
41:05: I have been crucified with Christ, but that's just not just the opposite I think conclusion has to be drawn there that sense
41:11: I have been crucified with Christ and that he lives in me That is the very foundation of the security of the salvation that is mine
41:18: So are you saying that a person in hell who for eternity blasphemes God's name and is under his punishment could likewise?
41:26: Quote Galatians 2 20 and say I have been crucified with Christ I'm saying sir.
41:31: What you're saying is blasphemy. Could you just answer the question ma 'am? Yes, or no thing that you have if the believer is has a conditional security well and again
41:40: I'm saying to you you're making the work of Christ dependent upon something that I do and I reject on the basis of the
41:46: Fact that Hebrews chapter 7 says that Jesus Christ is able to save to the uttermost that endure to the end
41:52: No, it does not say those that endure to the end Hebrews chapter 7 says those who draw near unto God by him
41:57: Let's let's try to quote those passages correctly And it is not my enduring to the end that makes Jesus Christ a
42:03: Savior my enduring to the end is his work in my Life, but sir, I believe I'm saved, but I can turn my back on the truth at any time because because it is not the life of going and sinning and living a life of Premeditated sin of going and denying the cross.
42:21: I'm on I agree with you a thousand percent That's the Christian life That's that's not the case at all ma 'am
42:29: And it is a gross misrepresentation of the Reformation churches to believe that they say you can go out and live a life of sin
42:35: The history the history is very clear The teaching is very clear that we believe that when
42:40: Jesus Christ saves someone he then works in their life And that in point of fact the faith that he gives since it is divine and does not fail
42:48: Is a faith that will result in a life that is honoring glorifying to God but I would point out to you ma 'am that by adding your works to the work of Christ and saying the work of Christ outside Of your works cannot bring about salvation
43:00: Then in point of fact I would suggest to you that you are very much in league with Rome in its teaching on that subject
43:06: I have no works. It's his works in me and those works So if they're his works in you can he fail to bring those works about only if I don't let him so he can fail
43:15: To bring those works about that's a midwife. There's a living sacrifice one other thing I have a friend that's living in open rebellion been saved for 20 -something years
43:23: Living in it living in open rebellion to God and you would tell me that person saved or never has been saved
43:29: And I would say they've never been saved. They're living over rebellion. Yes That's exactly what the Apostle Paul taught exactly what
43:35: John taught he said those who are born of God are not sinning They are not continuing to sin and so again the biblical position is very very consistent on this point
43:45: Well you I agree with you there if you're if you're born again You will not continue to walk in open rebellion against God, and if you do then
43:54: I do doubt your salvation However, I do know that those there are those in the scripture that have turned their back on God and were once enlightened of the truth and once served
44:04: God in in faith and obedience and love and And endurance and they turned when it got hot well
44:11: I'm very thankful that the Lord Jesus is my Savior that he's not a co -savior He's not dependent upon me Jesus says that he will save all those who are given to him by the
44:19: Father He will not fail to do that And that's why he is truly a perfect Savior, and that's why the glory goes to God and to God alone
44:27: And that's why I started with John chapter 6 verses 37 to 39 because that is a very clear biblical truth
44:33: And we will thank you Kathy will be listening to your program tonight at at midnight tonight Friday night
44:38: Saturday morning Well, I hope you enjoyed that interesting dialogue that took place especially with the caller
44:46: Especially since you're going to get to hear her again except on her own program and this time with mr.
44:52: Corner, but please notice we did explain exactly what took place and I think if mr.
44:59: Corner is an honest man, and he provides the entire tape you will hear that was said on the air about the reasons
45:07: For the non -appearance of mr. Corner will be verified and verified completely and I believe that he is well aware of that fact
45:16: So with the facts now in evidence, let's listen to what mr. Corner says in RAM file that is available on his website
45:30: Sometime our ministry has received numerous emails from various cronies of Jim white in essence these emails
45:37: State that I Dan corner would not debate Jim white on the believer security or that I even backed out of a debate
45:44: Friends, these are nothing but lies the real truth in all this is Jim white will not debate me on the subject of my 801 page book the believers conditional security in my book
45:56: I refute eternal security or the perseverance of the Saints on June 16th 2000
46:01: Jim white and I almost had a debate over the radio out of st. Louis, Missouri, but he
46:07: Refused as you will soon hear the following dialogue occurred between Jim white and myself
46:12: I was on the phone and he was at the radio station in, Missouri Listen to white first state that he didn't know
46:19: I'd be on the air with him until the day before And then that he was not willing to debate me on the subject of the believer security alone without veering off to the other points of Calvinism for your information staunch
46:33: Calvinist Arthur pink Thought that eternal security could be disproven without considering any of the other four points of Calvinism.
46:42: Unlike Jim white Again, it was clearly white who refused to go through with bait as you will soon hear for yourself
46:50: Listen carefully as Jim white begins Mr. Connor, I didn't know you're gonna be on no one's talked to me about anything
46:57: If I hadn't been in a chat room yesterday, I wouldn't even know that you were going to be here So I have nothing to do with what's been set up I was told
47:04: I was gonna be talking about my new book and that there's gonna be some discussion of the doctrines of grace all the rest of this stuff is
47:11: Total news to me as I walk through the door, so I'm afraid I'm not able to be of much assistance in working out
47:17: Whatever issues it is that you have But that's that situation that I'm facing
47:25: I've got a new book out. That's what I was told. I'll be talking about and that's all I know What they told me was that we would be debating the subject of the believer security and not veering off to any of the
47:36: Other points of Calvinism now, I know you're not willing to do that. That's correct There it is.
47:43: You heard it for yourself I said the Jim white quote what they told me was that we would be debating the subject of the believer security and not
47:51: Veering off to any of the other points of Calvinism now. I know you're not willing to do that Unquote and in response to my statement
48:01: Jim white answered back quote. That's correct Unquote here is that audio excerpt once again listen to that part a second time
48:14: What they told me was that we would be debating the subject of the believer security and not veering off to any of the other
48:21: Points of Calvinism now, I know you're not willing to do that. That's correct Also, please be informed that I have a fax copy of the debate rules with white for the same day
48:34: Signed by both Tim Barron's and Al gross the radio host a copy of these
48:39: We mailed out to anyone who requests a copy and sends a self -addressed stamped envelope to evangelical outreach
48:46: PO box 265 Washington PA 15 301 as for the debate rules of the almost white versus corner debate on the believer security
49:01: Finally white's image and all of this is being protected fallaciously, it was announced over the radio that I Couldn't make it for this white debate on eternal security as you will soon hear
49:15: It was also mentioned that some kind of extenuating circumstances came up on my end
49:22: This is how I was misrepresented even though I was already Connected by phone to the radio station and spoke to the radio host as well as Jim white himself
49:34: This false information about me not being able to make it for the bait
49:39: He's mentioned about five and a half minutes into the following radio interview excerpt
49:44: I had with the Thornburgs that Discussion with the Thornburgs occurred only about 15 hours after my almost debate with Jim white
49:55: Listen carefully to how I was misrepresented and white was protected over the radio in st.
50:02: Louis Also, listen for the offer Jerry Thornburgh extended to mr
50:07: White to debate me on his radio show on eternal security, which
50:13: Jim white has never taken me up on to date Jerry and Kathy Thornburgh as you listen over the next hour call in and take part as we discuss biblical truths and current events
50:25: And now who are Jerry and Kathy Thornburgh with the power of truth? Wake up st.
50:35: Louis you're listening to the power of truth broadcast. I'm Kathy and I'm Jerry We're glad you tuned in tonight and we pray tonight that you will have something that we will say or something
50:48: The Lord will do that would cause you to wake up if you're out there driving around in your car.
50:53: You're out there Listening on your radio. Maybe you're laying in the bedroom. You can't go to sleep right now
50:59: You tuned us in and you don't know why but I believe the Lord had you tune in So don't turn off that radio dial.
51:07: We're gonna have a special guest tonight His name is Daniel D Carner and he's written a book the believers conditional security and as we're on tonight
51:18: We're going to give our telephone number here. This is a live call -in and we're going to have you
51:24: Call in with us and ask questions today for Dan and I'm sure he will have some answers for you.
51:31: It's about Once they've always saved is it real is it? Our false, what do we do with that doctrine?
51:40: Where do we go with it? How do we live our life if we're once saved always saved do we live in the holiness of the scriptures?
51:48: Do we continue to sin every day? Maybe a hundred times? I've heard some say even 1 ,500 times
51:54: I don't know. It just seems like they Constantly say they sin and they just have to sin.
52:00: It's just the way it is Dan's written a book and I was going to tell a little bit about it.
52:06: But Jerry, did you have something you want to say? We'd like to say tonight we're going to talk just about that.
52:15: We're going to talk about a new creation reality In other words, we're going to be talking tonight about the truth of who we really are in Christ Do we have power to walk in the spirit which the
52:27: Bible says we must about in fact The Bible says the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk in the spirit and not after the flesh
52:35: That means that we're to be in a right standing with God and you know, he creates a new spirit in us
52:41: I like that that he creates a new spirit in us. He gives us a new heart He writes his laws in our hearts and then he empowers us.
52:50: Oh I like that word empower. We're empowered by his spirit. Praise the Lord. Praise the life I'm gonna quote
52:55: Dan's book here. It's something that he said in it before we get with Dan, but here it says
53:02: Each generation of believers must contend for the faith that God has once for all entrusted to the
53:09: Saints that's Jude 3 Jim Carol man Balaam observed that culture the unpaid bills of the church
53:17: He meant that when truth is not sufficiently emphasized in time error will be accepted as truth modern
53:25: Wesleyan Armenians are too silent about the issue of the believers security
53:32: By the turning the 20th century. It was assumed by many that Calvinism had expired
53:38: Methodism moved on to embrace evolutionary theory and the social gospel most of the popular
53:44: Bible teaches teachers today except the premise of Arminius but the conclusion of Calvin Then as a pastor had read about scholars he
53:58: I mean he read after scholars and Studied under professors who held different views after years of careful investigation.
54:07: He believes the Word of God finally teaches one a man and mankind is sinful by nature and In practice to God has provided the possibility of salvation to all
54:18: Three we must respond to God's enabling grace and I say enabling grace because I hear irresistible grace so much for Saving faith is moment by moment trusting in the person and work of Jesus Christ five
54:35: Covenants are conditional and may be broken six. All of life is on a probationary period seven final
54:44: Apostasy is a real possibility Yet the grace of God is not only able to keep us from falling but to complete the work of sanctification in our lives
54:58: In your book you quote a friend of yours saying if everybody goes to heaven that says they're going to heaven
55:04: God will have to deputize the angels to keep an ardor Dan are you there right now?
55:12: Yes, I am that quote was from a friend and I was just wondering is there anything you want to add to that quote as far as the
55:20: He would the Lord would have to send angels to deputize those that are in heaven right now
55:26: Well, that was quite a quote I believe it was from the forward of my book one of the three doctors that wrote the forward
55:34: I believe they are the ones that actually Wrote that and that was who you quoted but it certainly was a very very good quote
55:42: Very accurate very scriptural and I can give an amen to that and there's no doubt about it
55:48: Not everyone that says Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom. Jesus said only those who do the will of the
55:53: Father we were listening to a broadcast early this morning that you were supposed to be involved in and The gentleman said that you couldn't make it or there was some kind of extenuating circumstances that you couldn't be there and Is there a reason why you weren't there this morning or yes, let me just in brief
56:14: Maybe take 30 40 seconds and make a very quick comment and it's this
56:22: I'm going to be very brief about what happened this morning on the Tim and Al show with their guest Jim White is very disturbing to Me that something was said over the air
56:32: Indicating that I backed out of the scheduled debate with white on the believer security when in fact it was white
56:38: That would not debate me on the subject of believers for security
56:44: I have a document in my possession signed by Tim and Al That the debate topic was to be the believer security and not any of the other four points of Calvinism But white would not go along with that topic of debate
57:00: This is all I have to say at this point on all the neighbor with you Sometimes we're with you know, it was a little bit of blessing here
57:08: We can get mr To go ahead and have that debate with you on eternal security because I think myself
57:13: I read your book Dan and I know you do know your subject I can tell you put a lot of research into this book and and between you and me as a minister
57:23: I really enjoyed this book as a work in my Library because as a reference work because it really is full of information and I I would recommend the book to anyone
57:33: It really is a good Foundational recommendation of book and it's just something that I have enjoyed a whole lot reading
57:42: Well, there you go. I Think it's very very obvious when you listen to the
57:51: Conversation on the phone That there is a sudden drop at the end of what?
57:56: Mr. Corner plays it is very very obvious that I continued on from that point
58:02: And had I think probably in the previous portions of our conversations. I know there was two times when we talked as I recall
58:10: Explained what is on our website explained what I've explained here That it would be absolutely silly for me to demand that.
58:19: Mr. Corner Represent a position. He doesn't believe I might as well send a
58:25: Know that he's gonna be on a radio program arranged to get on it and send him a contract that says that He has to defend beliefs that are not his own and that he can't wander off into areas of Arminianism That he can't mention free will
58:39: That he can't mention that man really isn't dead in sin, but is capable of doing things. He can't mention universal atonement
58:46: He can't mention any of those other things That would be ridiculous it's artificial and it makes absolutely positively no sense and so let me reiterate
58:56: We have challenged. Mr. Corner to debate the real issues Calvinism versus Arminianism the fundamental issues of God's Sovereignty and his ability to save over his perspective of a very anthropocentric a very man -centered
59:14: Theology he refuses to do so that remains the fact and about the only further thing that I can say to mr.
59:21: Corner in light of his recent claims and his Giving of only a little portion of the facts is from one of my heroes and one of my favorite television programs
59:33: Mr. Corner, this is for you Goodbye Well folks, this is
59:39: Rich Pierce again, and that was very enlightening we're gonna go ahead and take a long break now and The telephone number for you to call for us to discuss this whole thing from what you've just heard
59:50: And we do hear a lot about Dan corner in our circles 866 8 5 4 6 7 6 3 and just another word of advice.
01:00:01: We're not going to be able to interview. Dr. Walson today, we're gonna postpone that and hopefully have him on in a couple of weeks
01:00:07: We have finally talked with him and again 8 6 6 8 5 4 6 7 6 3 and we're back with the dividing line today my name is
01:00:16: Rich Pierce, and I'm sitting in for dr. White today and the dividing line in the big chair and sitting here having a bunch of fun with a lot of his gadgets on his computer and Talking about Dan corner again,
01:00:29: I want to announce that let those folks know who may have tuned in Looking forward to hearing from dr.
01:00:36: Rick Walston today of Columbia Evangelical Seminary and talking about some of the rantings of Gary Novak We're going to postpone that show for a couple of weeks and hopefully be able to dedicate the entire show to that subject
01:00:50: At that point in time, but in the meantime, we're talking about Someone else who's been ranting lately and that's
01:00:57: Dan corner and It I have to tell you that I remember when
01:01:02: James told me about this incident He called me from st. Louis and said you're not gonna believe what
01:01:09: Dan corner has done now Because the interesting thing is is that when James and I found out in the chat room the day before His interview in st.
01:01:20: Louis Both of us said there's no way that Dan corner is going to go through with this. He will not under any circumstances
01:01:28: Be able to discuss or have an open dialogue or have an open debate
01:01:35: With James White without tying his hands behind his back and that's really what this is all about this kind of Tactic that mr.
01:01:44: Corner has been pressing everyone around him who disagrees with him On is is a very sly one it seems but really it's tantamount to going into the boxing ring with Muhammad Ali or maybe
01:02:02: Somebody like George Foreman and then saying George we want your trainer to tie your hands behind your back
01:02:11: And tie them real tight. And by the way, if any of the string that's tying your hands together
01:02:17: Happens to slip. Well, you can't use your hands to hit me. I can hit you all
01:02:23: I want but the the only thing you can do is smile and you can't use the the tools that that make you such a great in the ring and That's the entire
01:02:38: Approach here. It is I think It's reprehensible It is reprehensible that mr.
01:02:46: Corner makes People honestly think that he can hold his own in debate
01:02:54: And I don't think even the folks that are his followers Agree with that. It is a circumstance where and I'll give you an example here.
01:03:02: I have up in front of me on Bible works here on dr. White's computer John 637
01:03:09: That says all that the father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out now
01:03:17: Mr. Corner based on the quote -unquote contract that he would have had dr.
01:03:22: White sign Could have objected to dr. White using that that verse because that goes to limited atonement that goes to the sovereignty of God in in Salvation that goes to All kinds of different things.
01:03:41: He could have said that that but yet if you think about it It's eternal security
01:03:47: The point is is when you're going to take your opponent in any circumstance of debate
01:03:53: And say that he can't address a particular issue that he can't say certain things then
01:04:01: There's nothing honest about that There is nothing honest about that and then for mr.
01:04:08: Corner to have pulled the stunt that he did of having a contract there a contract sitting at the station
01:04:17: That well if you really want this debate that by the way if we hadn't have found out through the back door through a
01:04:25: Manner in which that we weren't supposed to find out That Dan corner was even going to be on the station
01:04:31: All we were told was that there was going to be an Armenian there and who wanted to debate him We would never have known
01:04:39: James would never have known until he got to the station that Dan corner was there and I found Interesting that mr.
01:04:46: Corner referred to this contract as the quote debate rules and because the two talk show hosts
01:04:54: Signed the thing somehow it's legitimate This is an ambush This is a
01:05:00: Dan corner ambush. And this is Dan corners mo. This is how he does things and he likes to set up his
01:05:09: Well, it seems to want to set up James White over and over and then sit around and flex his muscles and Scream from the rooftops how great he is when
01:05:19: James White says you're kidding You're crazy. There's no way I'm gonna do that Did You notice at the end of mr.
01:05:28: Corners comments that he said That it was announced errantly
01:05:37: That mr. Corner didn't make the meeting because of extenuating circumstances or that something came up if you listened to Both sessions the part that James played which was from the program itself in the morning that he was on and even the phone conversation which corner didn't even play the entirety of By the way,
01:06:04: I would be interested if anyone in Missouri in the state of Missouri knows whether or not it is legal to tape a conversation where only one member of the people on the phone
01:06:20: Knows that it's being taped because I can guarantee you there's no way James White would have consented to To that conversation if he'd have known that it was being taped
01:06:31: Because he knows Dan corner and his mo and he knows you can wouldn't throw him
01:06:36: Put it past him to do this And sure enough he did But it's it's interesting that he announced that it was there was extenuating circumstances that something came up Really needed to set the record straight something sinister is going on here doggone it and we can't have that Can't have these
01:06:55: James White people saying this. You know who it was said by It was said by the
01:07:00: Thornburgh's on their program at midnight Dan corners allies.
01:07:06: Do you know why it was said by the Thornburgh's? It's pretty clear to me. It's pretty clear to me
01:07:15: They were embarrassed by the fact that the man put a contract out there in front of him and when James White wouldn't sign a
01:07:20: Contract tying his hands behind his back It was downright silly Dan corner backed out
01:07:29: He backed out simply because James wouldn't give in to his little game
01:07:38: You know folks oftentimes I get phone calls from people I Get emails from people
01:07:44: One guy emailed me a couple of weeks ago and wanted me to fill in the blanks on an interview that he put together that somehow was going to trap us with a newspaper man from Egypt interviewing
01:07:58: Moses and I was to fill in the blanks of my answers to the interviewers questions
01:08:06: This is not a game. We're very serious
01:08:13: Dan corner Gary Novak and people like this guy who wants to have an interview with Moses through us
01:08:21: This is games this is mind games It is not worthy of the kind of attention that he's been getting
01:08:33: The bottom line to all this is is that again? It's disingenuous I Would also like to note note something else that in the in the
01:08:45: Interview that mr. Corner was not a part of by his choice by his choice
01:08:54: The host asked a question about irresistible grace If James had signed that contract the host would not have been able to ask about that he would have been unable to ask about it and I'll tell you what we're gonna go ahead and take a call here because we are running short on time
01:09:14: We've got about two or thirteen minutes left in the program and Joni are you there? Yes?
01:09:20: Oh, Johnny? I'm doing good and Warren in there. I'm getting a little bit of feedback.
01:09:26: We want to if we can how are you sir? Dan corner corner yes
01:09:40: What I was told that he was a Baptist that denied eternal security. That's the best of my knowledge
01:09:45: I haven't actually looked into what his denominational affiliation is I Would find it interesting if he was even consistent with that No, I I think you're gonna find that You might even find them.
01:10:04: I'm guessing here, but even within KJV only circles there might be a problem with eternal security but you have to understand that bad
01:10:13: Baptist tend to be a little bit of maverick and They They tend to be a little bit of you know
01:10:23: Running against the grain. That's why there's always so much controversy or whatever in the Southern Baptist Convention is you know?
01:10:29: Somebody's always trying to stir up a little trouble in there So I I don't know that you can always find that the the
01:10:36: Baptists and my being a reformed Baptist I can say that that they're always going to be always on the same page
01:10:49: Well this is the thing is he he has challenged James a number of times to my knowledge and then brags about it on his website
01:11:02: To debate eternal security but You can't you can't bring into the argument into the debate how you get there
01:11:13: Essentially it would be like my saying okay Dan corner. I want to debate the if you will insecurity of the believer against you
01:11:25: But you can't talk about the first four points of our minion ism Okay under any circumstances you can't bring any passes scripture passages that you think would
01:11:37: Would go after an unlimited atonement. You can't bring into any
01:11:43: Of the other issues that might Bring into the other four points of our minion ism into the discussion
01:11:50: I won't allow it you have to sign this contract Tying your hands behind your back saying you can't do it
01:11:56: That's tantamount to do it to what he's doing with James the bottom line is you've got a guy who genuinely knows he can't
01:12:02: He can't engage the entire argument. He's not capable of it and therefore he's trying to pad the stack the deck
01:12:14: So that he can try to play a little game on eternal security, but he's not serious.
01:12:19: This isn't a serious Person well have you ever Attempted to maybe tell him okay?
01:12:26: We challenge you to a debate, but you're gonna have to go by our rules. Oh, yeah Well he ignores it he wants again.
01:12:35: This is someone who's interested in a monologue not a dialogue So he just wants to hear himself you know making noise and And and you know popping himself up and Not not actually getting out there and doing the the back -and -forth
01:12:52: But if you look at the the page that we have at al min org forward slash all caps
01:12:57: OSAS dot lowercase HTML You're gonna see the dialogue that took place between him and James And you're gonna see how silly all of this really is when it all boils down to what?
01:13:12: This guy's the little game that this guy's playing No, it's specifically about the charges that he just leveled where he is now saying he's now bragging to people that James White refused or backed out of a debate and That never happened
01:13:34: And what kind of a scholar is this guy or is he a scholar? I don't believe he's a scholar. No you've basically got a guy who has a one -note tune and that's
01:13:44: Once saved always saved is a heresy That's his approach, and he wants to beat that horse as long and hard as he possibly can get away with And what about the members of his church or well?
01:13:57: I mean, I know you don't know the denomination, but Isn't there anyone that knows him that would say you know what among his movement there are those that would say he's off the wall
01:14:08: Well, I I don't know. I don't know how much of the Interaction you got to hear when
01:14:14: Kathy called the program when James was on Some of the notes
01:14:21: I took about that She brought up Michael Cervantes, which is a red herring
01:14:26: She she She articulated a lot of what is being circulated, and it's basically legend more than it's more legend than truth anymore
01:14:36: Lot of what's being circulated in those circles James challenged her a number of times to interact with him okay, and To have a dialogue and not once Did she actually interact with any of his points?
01:14:55: I loved her point about a mutual agreement but he kept trying to bring up points for her to actually deal with and be able to have a
01:15:06: Dialogue where the both parties are actually able to have a cogent conversation that goes back and forth
01:15:12: One person makes a point the other one responds to that point and then makes a point and yada yada yada We've heard it before it's called debate right and it's it's very simple
01:15:21: It's not a difficult concept to to grasp But this
01:15:27: I think is the mentality in the manner in which the folks that hang out with mr.
01:15:34: Corner, this is the approach they take and their presupposition is very simple and It's very dogmatic
01:15:42: I'm right you're wrong. I'm saved you're gonna burn in hell, and you're leading everybody that listens to you there with you okay, and Historically the only thing
01:15:55: I really know about Servetus of course I listened to the debate between James and That one is
01:16:00: Pentecostal gentleman Who debated on the dollars Robert Sabin right that's right.
01:16:06: Yeah, and the Robert Sabin his entire first Period of speaking dealt specifically and exclusively on the story of Miguel Servito to read it and The only thing
01:16:20: I knew about him historically is that he denied the doctrine of the Trinity Apparently what you're saying is he also believed he did not believe in eternal security
01:16:29: Servetus I don't know I I don't even know if I think the thing is again This is the horse that they like to beat over Calvin's head see her whole point was
01:16:38: Calvin was unregenerate Calvin was a murderer That's that's the charge they want to lay at Calvin's feet hoping that all the dominoes that follow
01:16:49: Calvinism ie Calvinism Will fall as a result of that Well that's something
01:16:59: James brought up, okay, and she ignored it She ignored it and I think that's that's the big challenge that you get in trying to to be able to deal with these folks and the approach
01:17:11: That they take is they are genuinely unwilling to actually interact
01:17:18: To I mean genuinely interact with the the whole of the subject or even part of the subject
01:17:24: I think I think you would find that even if we were to capitulate and go into that environment
01:17:32: Of simply dealing with eternal security mr. Corner would be accusing us of violating that right and left every time we opened our mouth
01:17:41: Because the bottom line is again The rule of the game is
01:17:46: I can hit you, but you can't hit back right That's that's the that's the whole thing here, and so James White if mr.
01:17:55: Corner or any of his followers are listening here the unambiguous response to this situation is
01:18:02: Clearly from James White Dan corner stop mouthing off Debate debate in an open environment in public have a time to debate
01:18:15: No limitations of subject matter debate the whole issue You want to debate
01:18:21: Calvinism which ironically if you go to his website? It says if you have questions about eternal security once saved always saved
01:18:31: Calvinism and Arminianism Ritus Now why is it that he's willing to entertain questions about Calvinism?
01:18:42: on his website if if it's off the point know that Arminianism and Johnny you and I've had this conversation before Arminianism and Calvinism are systematic theologies
01:18:57: They are a chain That you have to have each of the links intact
01:19:05: For them to work And if you pull one of the links out of the middle of the chain of Arminianism It falls apart and the same holds true with Calvinism.
01:19:14: It is a systematic theology and If if you know if he wants to get honest about this whole thing
01:19:23: Then he needs to be willing to stand up and defend his systematic theology
01:19:31: When they speak of the issue of Miguel Cervantes or Michael Cervantes, are they are they
01:19:38: Somehow just using it only to discredit Calvin or are they using him to align themselves with him?
01:19:45: Because I know he denied the Trinity. So I'm wondering if they're denying the Trinity as well. No, I I have never heard in Arminian In any discussions
01:19:53: I've ever had Actually try to side with or take Cervantes is a point of view because even in his denial there
01:20:02: I think it was a little bit on the strange side of How he approached? The the subject of what he taught about God It was very unique even in history as I recall
01:20:15: But I've never heard any Arminian try to grab hold of his arguments and use them
01:20:21: I think the bottom line is is that they saw Calvin's position of being the pastor at Geneva and The the responsibilities that go along with that post at the time
01:20:35: Giving the fact that the state was the church and the church was the state and they were wed He also had to be the prosecutor so he was surveyed as his prosecutor and what surveyed us walks into the church in a town where there's a warrant out for his
01:20:48: Arrest and he sits in the front row of Calvin's in front of Calvin as he's preaching a sermon
01:20:54: He's going to get arrested and he knows it and he was tried he was convicted for heresy and back then there was a penalty for heresy and You and I may not agree with that but We have to give the whole story behind that but the thing is these folks just simply want to discredit
01:21:13: Calvin and anything that came with John Calvin and his teachings Well, according to or remember in the clarification that James made in the debate against Robert Sabin.
01:21:23: He did point out that Mr. Servetus wasn't exactly a saint himself.
01:21:28: Yeah, he did try to Do some things to Calvin as well Well, I just learned
01:21:36: Johnny that we've had a little bit of a computer problem in the other room and we need to end the show so thank you for calling today,
01:21:44: I sure appreciate it and folks Don't don't believe everything that comes along in the form of quote -unquote
01:21:54: Experts Dan corner is not one and he's simply not a bit of a bill able
01:22:01: To defend the whole position that he takes and it's just that simple Anyway, thanks for being on the door being with us on the dividing line today.