December 16, 2019 Show with Jeff Kingswood on “From the Lips of Little Ones: A Study in the Catechism (For Very Little People)”

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This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com

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this is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 16th day of December 2019

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I'm thrilled to have back on the program someone who is a absolutely phenomenal preacher and teacher his name is

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Jeff Kingswood he is also pastor at Grace Presbyterian Church of Woodstock Ontario Canada I always look forward to hearing him speak at the

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Banner of Truth East Coast Ministers Conferences in Elizabethtown Pennsylvania and also when the church where I am a member

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Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle Pennsylvania has the opportunity to have Jeff speak from our pulpit he is pastor at Grace Presbyterian Church of Woodstock Ontario Canada which is a congregation within the

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Associate Reform Presbyterian Churches in Canada and today we are going to address a book that has been updated in a new version from Crown and Covenant Publications From the

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Lips of Little Ones a study in the catechism for very little people and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor Jeff Kingswood Hi Chris it's good to be with you again today

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I want to give our listeners our email address right away if you have questions for Pastor Jeff ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA and Pastor Jeff before we go into our subject at hand From the Lips of Little Ones a study in the catechism for very little people please tell our listeners for those of our listeners who have not yet heard you on the show do not know anything about Grace Presbyterian Church of Woodstock Ontario Canada tell our listeners about that congregation we're a congregation as you've noted of the

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Associate Reform Presbyterian Church we're a denomination mostly southern but has expanded into Canada in the last 25 years and made up mostly of folks who have left mainline congregations at least the initial core groups of those congregations and that was the core group of our congregation and since then we've been blessed over the last 19 years here in Woodstock to grow and currently we have about 300 people worshipping with us from a wide variety of backgrounds some just being attracted for one reason or another to this church others converted under the ministry here and so we've been blessed to see a growth and a large proportion of our congregation is made up of children and so the catechism has played a significant role in the life of our congregation and before he relocated or returned

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I should say to Scotland Sinclair Ferguson pastor to church in your denomination in the south then that's right at First Presbyterian Church Columbia South Carolina great well

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I also had the privilege I don't know if I ever told you this but years ago

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I tragically backslid into alcoholism and that was a sin that I had abandoned for 18 years when

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I became a Christian and tragically returned to it for a period but I went to a

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Christian rehabilitation and recovery ministry in Boone North Carolina and that was

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Hebron Colony Ministries I cannot stop singing the praises of that wonderful ministry Hebron Colony Ministries where I returned to a right state of mind and sobriety and while I was there the only local minister who would regularly visit me there was

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Pastor Larry Young who is a pastor in a ARP church in the

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Boone North Carolina area yeah that's right yeah he's a guy I didn't know that no you hadn't told me that yeah well he's a dear brother and he still remains in touch with me and hope he's listening today as a matter of fact

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I would be amiss if I did not mention that my guest today is the cousin of Cy Tenbrugengate who is a dear friend of mine who

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I've interviewed on this program and who is very well known as one of the leading apologists in the presuppositional apologetics movement and so I just wanted to give

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Cy a plug I look forward to having him back on my program as well a very dear friend and a very brilliant brother whom

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I love to interview and I'd love to see him in action in debates and so on his website is proof that God exists org proof that God exists org and also our guest today is the father -in -law of Pat Daly the general manager of the

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United States headquarters of Banner of Truth and why don't you tell our listeners I'm sure that the vast majority of our listeners are very familiar with Banner of Truth already but we do have new time new new coming listeners first -time listeners and we also have quite a number of new believers in our audience we have people who aren't even

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Christian in our audience we have Muslims and atheists agnostics we have members of the

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Church of Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy and other churches outside of evangelical

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Christianity who listen so why don't you tell our listeners about this wonderful ministry Banner of Truth Oh Banner of Truth is a ministry that was founded in 1950s by a gentleman named

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Ian Murray he was working as an associate pastor with the

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Reverend Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones at Westminster Chapel in London and they were doing a series of studies in church history and one of the men in the study asked

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Pastor Murray where the the resources where the primary sources for a lot of the information he was conveying to the group were from and he said oh they're these old books and the fellow said well where can we get these old books he said well they're not in print anymore and so that was really the genesis of the idea of Banner of Truth it began with a couple of Puritan republications and that continues to be the main focus of the work publishing

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Puritan and and other historic reformed works that are no longer in print and make them available to people again and also we have living authors some nice people are surprised to find that out but we and also we have a conference ministry so we have conferences for pastors and elders in the

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United Kingdom and we have two conferences currently in the states one the

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East Coast conference and a West Coast conference and then we also have an Australian conference that happens biannually so those those are the foci of our our work and I am blessed to be one of the trustees of this organization and it's a real privilege to to be able to put these kind of resources into people's hands amen and I always find it a blessing when

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I discover men even from outside of the Reformed camp who have discovered and fallen in love with Banner of Truth and of course one would expect that it won't be long before they are also included in the

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Reformed camp as they're reading Banner of Truth books. Usually that's how it goes. Yeah and the website for our listeners who are unfamiliar with it is

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BannerofTruth .org. BannerofTruth .org. Do you happen to know the theme of the 2020

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Banner of Truth East Coast ministers conference yet? Oh I wish. Ask me that a little earlier.

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Give me two seconds I'll come up with it. Okay while you're looking for it I want to plug my friend Pastor Larry Young's website.

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Pastor Larry Young who I mentioned just moments ago who used to visit me at Hebron Colony Ministries in Boone, North Carolina.

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He is the pastor of Brookside Presbyterian Church which is an associate Reformed Presbyterian congregation and the website is

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BooneBrooksideChurch .org and Boone is spelled B -O -O -N -E

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BrooksideChurch .org. Pastor Larry Young if you're listening Pastor Larry I love you and I have never forgotten your kindness toward me visiting me regularly while I was at Hebron Colony but have you found that information yet?

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I've got it right here the theme is going to be communion with God teaching us to pray and the speakers

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Lord willing will be Ian Hamilton, Sinclair Ferguson, who you've already mentioned,

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Chad Vegas from California, Michael Haken from Southern Baptist Seminary, John Payne from South Carolina and Craig Troxell.

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Yes. OPC pastor. Okay well I'm very familiar with all of those brethren except John Payne and I'm looking forward to getting to discover

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John and his ministry and perhaps get him on this program as well. Well this book that you have written, first of all,

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From the Lips of Little Ones, A Study in the Catechism for Very Little People, what was updated from the original that Crown and Covenant publications has brought back into print?

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I elaborated a little bit in the introduction, did some work there, changed a few things, looked at some treatment of different topics that I wasn't really happy with.

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The book was originally a series of Sunday school lessons that I had worked on in the late 80s and early 90s and was put into print by Crown and Covenant 10 -11 years ago now,

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I guess. And as you mature and you look at things, you look at them with a critical eye and say,

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I think that needs tweaked and this needs improved. So they let me look at a few of the lessons for different questions and amend them or completely replaced a few, actually.

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And then there were just a few typos and some scripture references that I wanted to adjust as well.

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So just some tweaking, mostly a few. If you have an old copy and you're going to get your hands on a new one, you'll notice a couple of sections.

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One of the days may be a different illustration or something a little clearer than it was originally,

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I hope. Well, I want to read a commendation for this book written by the aforementioned

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Ian Hamilton, who has been a frequent speaker at Banner of Truth conferences, including the one that's coming up in 2020.

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Ian Hamilton says, Pastor Kingswood's use of scripture to explain and apply scripture is a model that will educate parents as well as their children.

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I wish I had possessed this excellent resource when my wife and I were raising our four children.

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I have already recommended it to our children for them to use with their grandchildren, with their children,

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I'm sorry. And then we also have a name that we haven't mentioned yet, but whom I have interviewed on this program.

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I'm utterly amazed by Ryan McGraw, such a brilliant brother and almost a, the closest thing

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I can think of is a computer -like mind when it comes to instant recall when you ask him questions about nearly anything.

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He's on the faculty at the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

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He is actually the Morton H. Smith Professor of Systematic Theology there, and he's also the son -in -law of a local pastor here,

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Deckard Stevens, who is a co -pastor at the Carlisle Reformed Presbyterian Church here in Carlisle, PA, a

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Presbyterian Church in America congregation. But Ryan says, Jeff Kingswood leads parents through using the

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Catechism with the Bible in order to know the Lord through the Bible. His plan is brief, easy to follow, full of scripture, and will make life easier both for parents and children.

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Two very powerful commendations for this book. Before we even go into the theme of the book, because I have a feeling that you don't cover this specific topic much in your book, but we have a listener.

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We have B .B. in Cumberland County, PA. B .B.

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asks, I have seen in the congregation where I am a member that there are children who are constantly misbehaving and not paying attention, and even those that are quiet are usually coloring in books and so on.

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Do you approve of this? And also, on top of that, do you have any recommendations and counsel on how to further ensure your children will not only be quiet and stop fidgeting and making a scene, but also actually listen to what they are hearing from the pulpit?

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That's a big question that you get often from young parents and sometimes from disturbed older folks.

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Of course, we don't agree with children being disruptive in worship, and as far as kids coloring, it depends,

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I guess, is my answer to that one. I'm not in favor of giving them coloring books, but sometimes children...

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I've received colorful bulletins with key words from the servant written down in crayon, usually misspelled, but at least they're taking things down, so that's wonderful.

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I often tell young parents that success with your children, success being kids who are involved in worship, who are paying attention, who see worship as something that's interesting and exciting, it begins at home with family worship.

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You can't expect kids to sit through a service that lasts an hour or an hour and a half if they can't sit still during family worship that might last 10 or 15 or 20 minutes.

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So really, it begins at home with family worship, training our kids to pay attention to the

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Word. In family worship, you can interrupt the reading, you can ask questions to pull them back into the discussion.

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You know your kids best. You know how they think, how they're processing things, and so family worship is a great training ground.

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I know one mother in our congregation who actually asked if she could bring the kids in during the week, and she practiced.

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She told them if they weren't going to sit still during church, they'd come in during the week, and they would practice. They'd put a recording of a sermon on, and she would sit with them and train them to sit and to look up the hymn references.

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She put a lot of effort in that, and it paid off. The kids did come around, but it begins at home, like so much of the

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Christian life. If you expect Sunday morning to be the solution to your children's religious and spiritual issues, you're working at a deficit.

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The Word certainly, in the proclamation of it in public worship, is powerful and effective, but if it's being bolstered at home with family worship and training there, and that's one of the reasons

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I wrote the book, it's so much more powerful.

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And I have parents who come to me as well before worship, and we have a thing that I'll call key words.

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So the parents will say, do you have a key word this week? And I'll let the kids, through their parents, know what key word that they can look for in the sermon and actually count how many times they hear that key word.

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Wow. I just heard that as a recommendation for a Sister in Christ in the congregation where I am a member,

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Grace Baptister. She was saying that that would be a great idea for the children when they are capable of doing that kind of a thing, to even have a checklist for a number of words, not just one.

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Yeah, that would be a great idea. Yeah, if you can ask your pastor ahead of time for some words that will make a frequent appearance in the sermon topic for that week, and either maybe print it in the bulletin for the kids to use, or have parents make up their own list, or have the pastor send something out.

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It's tremendous, and the kids get excited. You can see them look at their parents when the key words mentioned, and they make a note on their paper.

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And we encourage kids to be in worship from a very early age.

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We have nursery for nursing infants. Sometimes moms just need a quiet place to go, or a crying baby just won't settle, and so we do have nursery care.

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But we also have a training room in our sanctuary, which is a soundproof booth, essentially, with pews in it where parents can sit with their children and train them, and be able to have a little bit of dialogue that you wouldn't be able to do in the sanctuary, but training their children to be in worship, although they're isolated sound -wise from the worship.

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Well, you know, I might as well take one more question that is likely off -topic, but I'll get this out of the way.

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I'm not trying to minimize the importance of the question by saying getting it out of the way, but I want to have the main portion of our interview on the subject at hand.

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But we do have an anonymous listener who asked something that's somewhat relative to what you were just saying.

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An anonymous listener says, what are your views of the family -integrated worship movement? I have heard very positive things about it, but I've also heard very disturbing things about it, how they have divided churches, and sometimes wound up disciplining people for unscriptural reasons, and sometimes these issues become nightmares in congregations and in the personal lives of families.

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Yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with the family -integrated thing.

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I see some imbalances in it. There is to be a distinction between the family and the church.

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The church is not the family, and the family is not the church. And that distinction needs to be maintained.

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Having said that, I am very much in favor of children being a part of worship as early as possible, and encouraging that, and encouraging family worship at home.

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But the family doesn't drive the church, and we need to be careful there.

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We maintain the distinctions and the authority structures that Scripture sets out for the church, and that the family agenda doesn't drive the church.

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The church continues to be a distinct society in Scripture and in Christian practice over the centuries.

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Having said that, like I said, I do encourage families to have their children in church at a very young age, and encourage that worshiping together.

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And we've been very blessed to see the results of that. Yeah, one of the things that concerns me about the movement, and I don't want to broad brush the movement, because there are a number of people in the movement that I don't think are guilty of what

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I'm about to say, but there is a tendency amongst some in the movement to be very harshly critical, even to the point of slander,

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I believe, towards those who don't agree with them on every jot and tittle, towards churches that have nurseries, towards churches that have a children's worship service, even if you disagree with that concept,

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I think that you have to be reined in or restrained in how you criticize brethren who do have those things.

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Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a liberty of conscience in some of these things that need to be exercised.

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And you know, my wife was in effect a single mother on Sunday. She sat in the pew by herself with six kids, and you know, there were days when one of the kids was just having one of those days, and the nursery was a blessing to sit with five instead of six and one of them just off for whatever reason.

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So you don't know what's going on in other people's lives, you don't know some of the stresses and strains that they're undergoing.

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I'm always uncomfortable when you... there certainly are biblical principles, foundational principles, the importance of a family being in worship, all of those things.

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But we need to be very careful in judging other people's motives and even methods. I think we need to be as charitable as Scripture allows us to be in those things.

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And by the way, B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the anonymous listener, you have both won a free copy of From the

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Lips of Little Ones, A Study in the Catechism for Very Little People, and if you could both provide us with your full mailing addresses.

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Obviously, the individual who chose to remain anonymous, we will obviously not expose your identity on the air, but please give us your full name as well as your full address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

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can ship these books out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. We want to thank also

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Danielle at Crown & Covenant Publishers, or Publishing, I should say, for making this book available for a limited number of our listeners today.

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It's actually Crown & Covenant Publications. My eyesight is going here. Crown & Covenant Publications.

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We want to thank Danielle again for providing us with these books that we are able to give away, and if you want to look up more information about this book and other books that they publish, go to crownandcovenant .com.

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Crownandcovenant .com, we hope to remember to repeat that information later, and of course, we always ask that our listeners, if you are purchasing books written by our guests, go to cvbbs .com

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to purchase them because Crown & Covenant will not at all lose in that situation because cvbbs .com

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has to purchase the books from Crown & Covenant, so everybody wins, both our sponsors at cvbbs .com

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and the publishers, crownandcovenant .com or whoever the publisher may be in other interviews.

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Well, the title that, once again, of the book that we are addressing today is,

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From the Lips of Little Ones, a Study in the Catechism, and again, for the sake of our new listeners or young believers, or meaning young in the number of years or months that they have been a believer, or for the non -believers or the people who are outside of Christendom, catechism, sometimes in the ear of a modern evangelical or a former

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Roman Catholic, whomever that may be, they immediately conjure up ideas of Catholicism and things outside of biblical

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Christianity, and obviously that is far from the case. Protestants have historically used catechisms as teaching guides, and the catechisms, if they are good catechisms, if they are biblically faithful catechisms, will have

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Scripture as their guide to teaching and educating and catechizing children or even adults when it comes to the main principles and teachings and doctrines of Christianity that we are to learn and embrace.

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But if you could explain a study in the catechism, the subtitle of your book.

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The Study in the Catechism for Very Little People is actually my daughter's title.

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She came up with that. And this is a catechism that was originally written by an elder in the

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Presbyterian Church of the middle 19th century, and Joseph Engels in 1840 wrote this catechism, and it's based on the shorter catechism, which is, of course, part of the

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Westminster documents, which were done in the mid -17th century.

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And the idea of catechizing children goes back right to the early

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Church. There's evidence of catechetical instruction. In fact, new converts were known as catechumens, and they were trained in the doctrines of the

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Church by this question -and -answer methodology where a question is asked and the right answer is trained into the person so that it becomes almost automatic.

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But along with that, it's important that we remind people that the catechism is like a map.

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It provides us with direction to key doctrines, key places in the

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Scriptures, and it's a map that guides and directs us in finding what the

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Scripture says and summarizing what the Scripture says. And it should be driving us all the time back to the

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Scriptures. If it's not doing that, it can be dangerous. That's true.

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A catechism isn't an inspired document. It's a human aid to help us in understanding the

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Scriptures. And if it's not driving us back to the Scriptures, it's not doing what it was intended to do. So it's a map, and if you're always looking at the map but never going places, you're spinning your wheels.

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And the same thing if you just memorize the catechism but never going to the Scriptures, you're missing the point.

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And so in writing this devotional study, my intention was that Monday to Friday I would provide parents with a

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Scripture passage and explain a little bit, provide some discussion questions, and so that the children would be learning the catechism questions and answers, but also seeing every day the

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Scriptural foundation for these questions and answers. Why do we say that?

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Well, this is what the Bible says. And the emphasis is very much Monday to Friday in these daily devotionals on the biblical foundations of these doctrines that we're talking about in the catechism.

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And I'm going to ask a question of a listener, and then have you answer it when we return from our first break.

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We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who asks,

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I know that your guest is a Presbyterian pastor, and you, Chris, are a Reformed Baptist. I was wondering how much overlap there is in From the

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Lips of Little Ones in regard to Presbyterian distinctives and Reformed Baptist belief that both hold in common, meaning both

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Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist. And I will have you answer that when we return.

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If anybody else wants to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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And always remember, give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the U .S .A., and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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We'll be right back with Jeff Kingswood and From the Lips of Little Ones, a study in the catechism for very little people.

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today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything In It, at wng .org

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forward slash podcast. That's W for world, N for news,

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G for group, dot org forward slash podcast. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and my friend

37:44

Chris Arnson and I are excited to be attending another G3 conference together in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, January 16th, through Saturday, January 18th, on a theme that is vitally important to all of us,

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Worship Matters. I'll be on the speaking lineup with Eric Thomas, Joel Beeky, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Phil Johnson, Tom Askell, Votie Balcom, and the world -renowned preacher, teacher, and author,

38:07

John MacArthur. A fascinating new addition to the roster is Kosti Hinn, nephew of the notorious false teacher,

38:14

Benny Hinn. Kosti has repented of the word -faith heresies of his youth, and is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and cessationist in California.

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Come join me and Chris Arnson at G3 2020, January 16th through the 18th, in Atlanta, by registering at g3conference .com.

38:31

That's g3conference .com. See you there. Yes, I hope I do see you there, at the G3 conference, and register soon, not only to attend, but if you are a ministry leader, like a parachurch ministry leader, or if you're a business owner,

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I would strongly urge you to register for an exhibitor's booth as well, because there will be, no doubt, over 5 ,000 people there.

38:57

They always have over 5 ,000 people at the G3 conference. And with John MacArthur added to the lineup,

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I am strongly confident they will have over 6 ,000 this January. That's January 16th through the 18th, in Atlanta, Georgia.

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Go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com. We are now back with our guest today,

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Jeff Kingswood, pastor at Grace Presbyterian Church of Woodstock, Ontario, Canada, a member of the

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Associate Reformed Presbyterian Churches of Canada, and we are discussing a newly revised edition of a book that he originally wrote about a decade ago,

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From the Lips of Little Ones, A Study in the Catechism for Very Little People. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

39:37

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

39:43

USA. And Pastor Kingswood, our previous listener, basically wanted to know if there's enough content in there that both

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Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists agree upon, that Reformed Baptists can comfortably use this as a catechism or guide when catechizing their children.

40:04

Right. That's a good question. Well, the children's catechism is based on the shorter catechism, the

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Westminster. And of course, the Westminster was the original document that the 1689

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Baptist Confession was based on. And the vast majority of the material is identical.

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And there are obviously some differences in church government and the understanding of baptism.

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In the children's catechism, I think there are probably three questions that our

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Baptist brothers and sisters would take issue with. Those are questions 129, 130, and 131, which ask who are to be baptized, and the answer is believers and their children.

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And then it talks a little bit about, in the next two questions, about the basis, the biblical basis for that assertion.

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Now, I've explained a Presbyterian view here in this catechism, which is what we hold to and our church holds to, but I've had many

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Baptist friends come up to me and express appreciation for the book.

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There are 145 questions altogether over 72 weeks. And so three of those questions and two weeks would be affected by the subject of baptism.

41:29

I've had a couple of Christian schools, Baptistic Christian schools, use the book, and they've asked me for permission then just to insert a sheet for those weeks that they've written along the same basis that they use in their school to supplement their understanding of the church's position on baptism.

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So there are obvious differences. We can't just paper over those that are there, but it's really a very...

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I mean, it's less than, you know, 1 .5 percent of the content actually deals with that subject.

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So I think it can be used with profit for believers of all sorts of backgrounds, and if you want to amend the content as you go through with your kids on those two chapters, or those two week studies, and those three questions, feel free.

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It's all provided as a guide, and I say at the beginning, parents are free to, obviously, to use it as they see fit and to amend the material, and there are discussion questions that are given as guidelines, but the ball really is in the parents' court with this.

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It's just a tool for parents to use in training their children. So if you order the book from cvvbs .com,

42:56

identify yourself as a Reformed Baptist, and you'll get a free bottle of white out. I'm only kidding. We have several questions from Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

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Grady, I hope you're still listening, because every one of your questions has been answered already, so if you want to send in a different question, please do so, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

43:20

Perhaps I'll ask one of Grady's questions, because perhaps you can expand upon it. He asks, does the book line up with one of the

43:30

Protestant catechisms? Well, wouldn't you say that all of the creeds and confessions of the

43:39

Reformed faith, as you just said, there's only three questions that have any violation of doctrine with Reformed Baptists, but when you're talking about those who endorse or embrace the three forms of unity, those who embrace the

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Savoy Declaration, those who embrace the 39 articles of religion in the Anglican Church, the

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Reformed Anglicans, those who embrace the 1689

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Confession, and I don't know if I've overlooked any, but really, you know, nobody with any of those creedal or confessional statements as a part of their life and piety and faith would have any problem with this.

44:23

No, I agree. The doctrines contained in the shorter catechism, and obviously the larger catechism, are generally

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Catholic, multi -Catholic, universal. They are things that the church, and especially the

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Reformed churches, churches with a Reformed background, but as you say, the 39 articles, or even

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Augsburg to a large degree, they would be able to agree with most of the assertions in the children's catechism.

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The agreement is far greater than the disagreement, and so this book is solidly based on the shorter catechism in the

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Confessions that came out of the Reformation era is striking. They almost all deal with the

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Ten Commandments, they deal with the Lord's Prayer, they expound basics like justification and sanctification, and the fall into sin, and so just logically proceed through the

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Christian life, and the unanimity on most of those subjects is always,

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I think, surprising to people who've not studied it before. But as they do study it, and as they look at these, there's obviously development.

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John Huss wrote a bohemian catechism a hundred years before Luther, and if you look at that catechism, we'd say, well, we agree with 99 % of that catechism.

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And it's dealing with fundamentals of the Christian faith, and it's not seeking to exploit areas of difference or inculcate unique theological perspectives.

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It majors on the majors. It is a children's catechism, and so it majors on the fundamentals of the

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Christian faith. So I think just about any believer,

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I've even had some Arminian brothers and sisters say that they've used it with profit. Right, I've even seen and heard

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Arminian pastors quote from the Westminster Catechism when it is agreeing with whatever it is they're preaching about.

46:50

I mean, obviously, the great historic creeds of the faith contain much of which all those whom are truly born again believe.

47:01

Right, absolutely. Well, you know, I think that's a good thing for you to perhaps summarize right now.

47:08

What are some of these major themes that parents should emphasize with their children?

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Obviously, I'm assuming you would think that would be inappropriate for parents to overemphasize.

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I'm not saying that they shouldn't ever mention them or teach their children about this, but to overemphasize things about eschatology, overemphasize things about ecclesiastical matters, church polity, and so on.

47:32

What would be the major themes of the Bible that a proper catechism should emphasize?

47:41

Well, this catechism begins, the children's catechism begins with creation. And, you know, who made you?

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That's the first question. And then what else did God make? Why did God make you in all things, you know, for his own glory?

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And then it goes on to talk about how we can glorify God and who is God. And it explores the

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Trinity very simply, briefly, talks about the omniscience of God, the omnipotence, the omnipresence of God, and explains those things in a way that the children can understand them.

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Then it goes to the scriptures and talks about the Bible and the doctrine of inspiration.

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Then we get into Adam and Eve and their creation and fall. And then, following the fall, of course, we get into God's dealings with men in the covenant of works and the covenant of grace and how

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Jesus Christ has fulfilled those covenants.

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And it talks about Adam as our representative head in the covenant of works, Jesus dying for his elect people, and the work of the

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Holy Spirit in regeneration, then the work of the Spirit in sanctification. And then we get into some of the work of Christ, particularly on the cross, and what the significance of his suffering is on the cross, and how we come to believe by the work of the

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Spirit in us. Then the sacraments, we talk about that, as I've mentioned.

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We talk about the Lord's Supper, we talk about baptism, we talk about the offices of Christ in his work as a prophet, priest, and king for us.

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And it goes through the Ten Commandments and explains very clearly and concisely, although they do tend to be the longest questions in the

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Catechism, but explaining what the role of God's Word in the

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Ten Commandments is in the life of a believer, both in showing us our sin and also then showing the redeemed people how

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God calls us to live as new people. It also deals with the

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Lord's Prayer, the petitions within the Lord's Prayer. Well, that's the structure of the Catechism. By the way, I have to add here how blessed

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I was, how extremely blessed and filled with joy I was to see a video that my friend

50:28

Susan, who actually led me to Christ in the 1980s, she showed me a video of her grandson and neither

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Susan's son nor his girlfriend, who are the parents of this boy, are born -again believers, yet anyway.

50:47

I have confidence that they're being drawn. But their child, Susan's grandchild, was so proud, and I don't mean this in a bad way, was so happy, is a better way

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I guess I should put it, to show his grandma that he wanted to please her, that he recited by memory the

51:06

Lord's Prayer. He's five years old, and I was just so happy to see this young man

51:12

Noah, if you're listening, Noah Ignacio, read from, or not read,

51:18

I should say, but recite from beginning to end by memory the Lord's Prayer. And what a joyful thing that was.

51:26

And I'm sure that that is a key thing in the life of children, that they should be fully aware and be fully able to memorize and recite and repeat, because of the major themes that are in that prayer alone.

51:40

Absolutely. Yeah, it's great. It is a constant delight to me when the kids in the congregation, we have a program where the children memorize the

51:51

Catechism 25 questions at a time, and then when they've got 25, they come into my study with their mother or father, and they recite those 25, and they get a prize, a small book to read, or sometimes in the summer

52:05

I have gift certificates from our local ice cream place. So when they get 25 questions, they recite them, and then when they do the whole thing, they come in and they recite all 145 answers to the

52:20

Catechism, and it's just such a delight for me as a pastor to see these kids.

52:26

I think the youngest we've had do the whole Catechism was four years old, and most of them are five or six years old when they do it, and it's just a delight to see these children being able to tell you what the petitions of the

52:39

Lord's Prayer are, to recite the Lord's Prayer, to be able to recite the commandments. Just to have that framework there, that scaffolding already prepared in their mind, even if they don't understand everything that they're saying completely.

52:54

They've got the framework, and then as they sit under the ministry of the Word, as they study the Word themselves, that scaffolding will be filled in, and the framework will be filled out, and they'll have an understanding and a place to put things as they learn them.

53:14

It's just delightful to see the light coming on in young life that way. We have to go to our midway break right now.

53:21

It's the longer than normal break that we have here, because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida airs this program twice daily in a pre -recorded format, and they, according to FCC regulations, have to localize their programming to Lake City, Florida.

53:36

So while we air our globally heard commercials in the midway break, they air all of their local public service announcements and other things that are local in Lake City, Florida.

53:46

So please be patient with us as we take this longer than normal break, and use this time wisely. Please write down questions to Jeff Kingswood about his book,

53:55

From the Lips of Little Ones, and also write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them whenever possible.

54:03

Keep in mind that the more often you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they're going to remain our advertisers, which means that we will more than likely remain on the air for a longer future, because we depend upon the advertising dollars from our advertisers in order to exist.

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The advertising dollars from our sponsors are crucial to our existence. They are essential to our existence.

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So please patronize them as often as you can, and further ensure that you will do that by writing down their information during their advertisements.

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But also remember, send in a question to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

54:42

to Jeff Kingswood. Of course, we will accept questions on a broader theological spectrum than merely what is contained in From the

54:50

Lips of Little Ones, but we obviously prefer questions on anything regarding children in the

54:56

Christian faith. We'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

55:02

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, host of A Visit to the Pastors Study, and I am so thankful to be part of the advertising family right here on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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If you live on Long Island or if you're visiting the metropolitan New York area, I invite you to join us for worship at The Haven on Sundays at 4 30 p .m.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time, and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift, or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. I'm so grateful to our sovereign

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God that while manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron at a major Bible conference, I providentially met

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Johns County. Andrew is certainly the kind of pastor that is a perfect match for my radio show, and has already proven to be an ideal guest.

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I'm Pastor Andrew Smith, and I'd like to urge you to consider joining Christ Reformed Community Church of St.

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It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnzen was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year.

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It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, so tons of stuff going on, tons of great speakers.

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That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

01:11:50

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget folks, every time you purchase books from solid -ground -books .com,

01:12:00

you are helping to further ensure a longer future for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, because Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of solid -ground -books .com.

01:12:11

They are a key sponsor of this program. So please, with all the upcoming holidays and special events, as well as to replenish your own library and for your own personal edification, please always remember solid -ground -books .com.

01:12:27

And always remember to mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when you purchase anything from solid -ground -books .com.

01:12:35

We are going to be returning with our guest, Jeff Kingswood, momentarily. We just have some upcoming announcements that we need to remind you of.

01:12:43

First of all, although they are sold out, I just want to remind our listeners to please look for me at this week's conference in New York City, The Foundations Conference.

01:12:55

Their website is thefoundationsconference .com if you want to keep updated on future conferences.

01:13:01

They are sold out, but if you are already registered to attend this wonderful conference, please look for me in New York City.

01:13:11

This will be Thursday and Friday of this week, December 19th and 20th, in Manhattan, and I look forward to seeing you there.

01:13:19

I also look forward to meeting not only new friends that I have never before had contact with, but also looking forward to seeing some old friends there as well, and I'm sure there will be many at the

01:13:32

Foundations Conference in New York City. This coming January 9th, Thursday, January 9th,

01:13:38

I am holding my next Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, at the

01:13:44

Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall. It's absolutely free of charge. It is open to all men in ministry leadership, whether you are a pastor, whether you are a deacon, whether you are a leader in a parachurch organization.

01:13:59

We would love for you to register. Absolutely free of charge, as I said. Our keynote speaker this

01:14:05

January 9th is evangelist Justin Peters of justinpeters .org.

01:14:11

You may be familiar with him from John MacArthur's Strange Fire, a conference that he had not long ago.

01:14:19

Justin Peters was one of the featured speakers on the roster at that event. He is also a world -renowned evangelist known for being someone who was born with cerebral palsy, and he has as a key element of his ministry exposing the charlatans and the heretics and the deadly and damning deceivers in the

01:14:41

Word of Faith movement. Well, if you want to hear Justin Peters, absolutely free of charge, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:14:50

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. As long as you are a man in ministry leadership, you will be registered for this free event, and you'll also get many free books donated by almost every major Christian publisher in the

01:15:02

United States and the United Kingdom. So, in other words, every man there will be leaving with a heavy sack of dozens of free brand -new books.

01:15:11

This has been going on since the 1990s. It was the brainchild of my precious late wife, Julie, and continues on after her entering into glory with Christ for eternity in her memory and in tribute to her.

01:15:24

And so I hope that you could join me not only for an excellent message, I'm sure, by Justin Peters, but also a fun time of fellowship and feasting and this wonderful banquet hall that the

01:15:38

Carlisle Fire and Rescue Department has for the community here, and I look forward to seeing you there.

01:15:46

If you want to register for free, just call me at 631 -291 -7002, 631 -291 -7002, or email me at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:15:56

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. Then, coming up later on in January, from the 16th through the 18th,

01:16:06

I will be there once again for the fourth year in a row, manning an exhibitor's booth at the

01:16:12

G3 conference in the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia.

01:16:19

College Park is a suburb of Atlanta, and this Georgia International Convention Center is actually connected by rail, a very short rail trip to the

01:16:29

Atlanta airport. This January, the theme is Worship Matters, and there is absolutely, as always, an extraordinary lineup, a very long and a very deep lineup of pastors and speakers on the roster there.

01:16:46

We have, first of all, we have Josh Bice. If you've never heard

01:16:52

Josh Bice before, you've got to hear him speak. He is really a gifted preacher. He is the founder of the G3 conference and pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia.

01:17:03

He is on the roster. We have Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a longtime dear friend since 1995, brilliant apologist.

01:17:14

We have Phil Johnson, the executive director of John MacArthur's Media Ministry. Grace to you.

01:17:21

We have my friend Todd Friel of Richard TV and Richard Radio. We have Derek Thomas, world -renowned

01:17:27

Presbyterian author, preacher, teacher, and conference speaker. Dr. Tom Askell, please pray for Dr.

01:17:34

Askell. I hope he's going to still be on the roster there. He recently collapsed and was unconscious after preaching.

01:17:40

This is just about two Sundays ago, I believe. He is recovering, and I hope he has recovered enough by the time

01:17:47

January 16th rolls around to still remain on the roster at the G3 conference. Stephen J.

01:17:54

Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries.

01:18:00

Kosti Hinn, who is the nephew of the notorious charlatan and heretic Benny Hinn. Kosti doesn't mind me describing his uncle that way because he says that much and more, having as a major emphasis of his ministry the exposing of the deadly and damning deceivers within the

01:18:16

Word of Faith Pentecostal movement. He has repented of those heresies himself as a Reformed Baptist pastor.

01:18:23

He was in California, as Dr. James R. White mentioned in an ad you just heard recently on the show, but he has been called to another church in Arizona where he is now pastoring.

01:18:32

He's not only a Reformed Baptist, but he's also a cessationist now. I'm looking forward to hearing him speak at the

01:18:38

G3 conference. And, of course, John MacArthur himself has been added to the lineup. I would be there even if it was just John MacArthur all by himself.

01:18:46

So if you want to join me from Thursday, January 16th, through Saturday, January 18th at the G3 conference at the

01:18:51

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

01:18:57

As I said earlier, if you are a leader in a parachurch organization or a business owner and you want to promote whatever it is you're doing to a large number of people, well, the

01:19:08

G3 conference would be an ideal place for you to man an exhibitor's booth just like I will be manning for the fourth year in a row.

01:19:14

There are typically over 5 ,000 people there. I think with John MacArthur added to the lineup, they'll have over 6 ,000 people.

01:19:20

That's just an educated guess. But if you want to either just register to attend or also to man an exhibitor's booth, go to g3conference .com,

01:19:29

g3conference .com. Make sure you tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnsen at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

01:19:35

Last but not least, if you love this show, IronSharpensIronRadio, you don't want it to disappear, please go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com,

01:19:43

click support, then click, click to donate now. We are in urgent need of your donations. There are still bills in December we have not been able to pay, and of course

01:19:52

January is even more of a frightening scenario as far as paying our bills. Please, if you haven't donated in a long time, if you've never donated, or even if you've recently donated but have the extra funds to donate again, please be as generous as you can and as frequent as you can with your donations if you love the show and don't want it to go away.

01:20:12

Go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. You can also mail in a check the old -fashioned way to the address that will appear on your screen when you click support at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

01:20:24

The caveats that I try to remember to remind you every day are, please never, ever, ever siphon money away from your local church where you are a member.

01:20:33

In other words, don't siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church where you are a member in order to give to IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

01:20:41

Never do that, and never put your family in financial jeopardy if you are having a hard time making ends meet by giving to IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

01:20:48

Those are two commands of God providing for church and home. Providing for my show is obviously not a command of God, but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, please donate as frequently as you can and as generously as you can at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

01:21:03

Click support, then click, click to donate now. If you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:21:09

and put advertising in the subject line. We certainly could use, in an urgent way, your advertising dollars.

01:21:15

And also, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, you are living in rebellion against God, I have helped a number of people find churches wherever they live, all across the globe, where they have joined and become members, or where they have recommended them to family, friends, and loved ones who need churches in whatever area of the world they live in, or where they have visited on vacation.

01:21:38

In fact, I just recommended an associate Reform Presbyterian Church in Canada to a listener who is looking for a church in that area.

01:21:45

So, send me an email if you need help finding a church, to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:21:52

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address to use to send in a question to our guest,

01:22:00

Jeff Kingswood, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:22:06

And Pastor Jeff, we have a question from Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and Christian asks, knowing that there is a divide between Reform Baptists and Presbyterians, and even

01:22:23

Reform Baptists, I'm sorry, and even between Reform Presbyterians themselves, on the issue of whether to view children of Christian parents as a mission field, or as Christians until they prove otherwise by their beliefs and actions, how does this book handle, if at all, that controversy that divides people in the

01:22:47

Reformed faith? The book itself doesn't address that question.

01:22:55

It simply is a tool for discipling our children and pointing them to Christ.

01:23:04

The book doesn't, you know, assume that children are regenerate.

01:23:13

We don't believe that baptism makes our children Christians, but it does bring them into the visible

01:23:21

Church, the body, the community of the body of Christ, and there they can be nurtured in understanding and sit under the ministry of the

01:23:31

Word and be pointed to Christ. They need to be converted. There's no question about that, and that's my personal view on that, and I think it's the view of all

01:23:42

Orthodox believers that our children need to come to that point where they cross from death unto life.

01:23:50

That happens in their life at some point. We don't always have the ability to pinpoint it, but the book is deliberate, and the

01:24:03

Catechism is deliberate, in constantly pointing to Christ, pointing us to our

01:24:09

Savior, pointing us to that need for reconciliation with God, and it's foundational to the message of it.

01:24:18

So there's no presumptive regeneration going on here in the understanding of the book. There's no agenda that way.

01:24:25

It is a simple tool for discipling our children and pointing them to Christ.

01:24:32

Amen. So you would agree, and I'm assuming this is where our listener was coming from, you would agree that it's dangerous to presume that our children are saved just because they were born by Christian parents and are being raised and nurtured in a

01:24:49

Christian household. There can be a danger of just assuming, and this is, by the way, not something that is exclusively done, sadly, by Pado -Baptists.

01:25:00

There are many, especially in the Bible Belt, there are many Baptists, Southern Baptists, and I'm not nitpicking on Southern Baptists because many of my friends who are

01:25:11

Reformed and who are in the Southern Baptist Convention will say this very freely and openly that Southern Baptist churches have been notorious for, in the

01:25:21

South, in the Bible Belt, when a child turns a certain age, maybe 12 or 13, they will automatically get that child baptized, regardless of what kind of profession of faith that child may have.

01:25:34

So this is a dangerous thing, and this is something that appears to me, the banner of truth, has historically opposed also, in general.

01:25:43

Absolutely, yes. Absolutely. That presumption is a pernicious sin.

01:25:49

I mean, look, we can go through the Scriptures and see instance after instance where that idea of a presumption is shown to be a deadly disaster.

01:26:02

We can think of, well, Jacob at Esau, or Romans 9, but we can look at the sons of Eli, we can look at the children of David, you know, all in the covenant, but how many of them were faithful and had a real relationship with the

01:26:19

Lord? Just over and over we have instances of that. No, we need to be continually pointing our children to Christ, and if you want to use the term evangelizing our children, that's fine.

01:26:32

I would rather say that we're constantly discipling them and pointing them to the

01:26:39

Savior, and calling them to that personal faith that they need to have.

01:26:46

They can't presume on their parents' faith or riding on the coattails of their grandparents.

01:26:52

It is something that they need to deal with, and the Catechism clearly points to that reality and that need.

01:27:00

Amen. Well, thank you, Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island. Make sure we have your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com

01:27:08

can send you a copy of, a free copy of From the Lips of Little Ones, and that is thanks to our very generous friends at Crown and Covenant Publications, and once again, their website is crownandcovenant .com,

01:27:23

crownandcovenant .com, and we would urge you, if you are purchasing this book, whether you've won a copy for free and want to buy additional copies, or whether you didn't have an opportunity to win a copy, please buy these books from cvbbs .com,

01:27:40

because Crown and Covenant Publications doesn't lose out at all by you doing that, and you're helping one of our sponsors, cvbbs .com,

01:27:48

to remain in existence through your patronage of them as well. So, you're killing two birds with one stone by ordering the book from cvbbs .com.

01:27:59

We have a listener, Ronald, in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

01:28:07

Ronald asks, I know that there is even some scientific evidence, as well as historic evidence, that singing things enable children to remember them more strongly and clearly.

01:28:21

I don't know if your book covers this, but do you concur that if you teach your children to sing truths, they will remember them more likely than just reading them in word form?

01:28:35

Yeah, there's something about singing that certainly implants the word in us in a different way.

01:28:41

I've visited elderly people in nursing homes who seem to be non -communicative, but if you begin to sing a psalm with them, they'll start singing it with you, and there's something about the way that singing implants information in us that's different.

01:29:01

And so, singing is great, and Judy Rogers, who some of your listeners may know.

01:29:06

Oh yeah, I love Judy Rogers, and I have even arranged concerts for her, and I am still in regular contact with her.

01:29:15

What a gifted woman she is. Absolutely, and she's done a number of the questions and answers and themes of the

01:29:23

Catechism in some of her CDs, and I would very much encourage your listeners to grab some of Judy's CDs.

01:29:32

I don't know if Cumberland Valley carries them, but they can certainly get them for you. Yes, they do carry some of them.

01:29:39

I've seen them there, and if they don't have the specific CD that you want, in fact, if you first go to JudyRogers .com,

01:29:49

JudyRogers .com, you can make a list of all the CDs that you want and then order them from CVVBS .com.

01:29:56

Right. Well, Judy has some great songs, and we played them over and over and over again in our band on our family journeys, and our kids certainly did learn a lot of these

01:30:07

Bible truths through the music of Judy Rogers and her putting the Catechism and its themes to music.

01:30:15

And, in fact, one of our ads just a few moments ago featured the voice of Judy's brother -in -law,

01:30:24

Joe Moorcraft, who is endorsing the New American Standard Bible, another key sponsor of this program.

01:30:33

Let's see. I want you to basically to make sure that we have this covered before we take any more listener questions.

01:30:41

I want you to really emphasize right now the most essential reasons why someone should not only get a hold of your book, but also begin, if they have not already had this as a part of their normal Christian life at home, the issue of catechizing children, not only allowing leaders in a church to be involved in that, but also in the home.

01:31:09

You already mentioned when we were talking about the pros and cons of the family -integrated worship movement that there is a distinction between the home and the church.

01:31:21

But one thing that we agree upon that certainly must be present in both the church and the home is the catechizing of children.

01:31:27

So if you could basically line out or spell out the essentials of having your book and also catechizing children.

01:31:39

Right. You can't begin early enough. I'm always struck by how well children are able to assimilate these truths and to do the work of memory.

01:31:55

It's hard work for parents to repeat these questions and repeat them.

01:32:03

But the thing is, you'll be learning doctrine while you're doing it. You'll be learning the questions and answers as you go along, which

01:32:10

I suspect most parents would benefit from. So what we're doing is, as I've said, we're building a framework.

01:32:18

We're giving our kids a framework that as they grow and as they begin to understand biblical truth, they'll start to go, oh right, that fits in there.

01:32:29

And they've got this skeleton. And then as they grow, as they study the scriptures themselves, as they study them with you in family worship, the skeleton begins to be fleshed out and they begin to see the whole.

01:32:45

And the catechism provides that framework. It provides a structure for our children to think

01:32:50

Christianly. And we live in an era where we're thinking is disordered.

01:32:58

The foundations are wrong and so everything else is wrong. And the catechism provides a foundation and a framework that points our children back to the scriptures, back to the scriptures over again.

01:33:11

But they'll know where to go in the scriptures. They'll know where to find the answers to their questions.

01:33:17

They'll be able to understand the reasons why the

01:33:22

Apostle Paul is saying these things about justification. And that framework can't be built early enough.

01:33:33

And as I said, we have had kids as early as four years of age do the entire catechism, and most of them five, six, maybe even seven years of age.

01:33:43

And then they move on to the shorter catechism in our Sunday school program, or in their homes with their parents.

01:33:50

And it gives them patterns for thinking, it points them back to the scriptures, and it just enables them as they grow in family worship, in the worship of the church, to know how this all hangs together.

01:34:11

And they don't have a Sunday school faith where they have a whole bunch of Bible stories that are disconnected, that end up usually being moralistic in their application.

01:34:22

Instead, they understand how these Bible stories fit into God's plan and purpose for the redemption of his people.

01:34:29

And catechetical instruction has been used by the church since the earliest days.

01:34:35

And it was rediscovered, well, as I said, with us even 100 years before the Reformation, but it was rediscovered by the

01:34:41

Reformed churches, and has been used ever since. There are a variety of catechisms out there, and if you don't want to use the children's catechism, that's fine, but find something that enables you to systematically go through the doctrines of the

01:34:59

Word of God with your children so that they have that foundation, so that as they go on in life, they'll be able to understand what they believe and be able to articulate it.

01:35:11

I was at a Presbytery examination of a student once who didn't do as well as he'd hoped, and I said, you know, if you had memorized the answers of the children's catechism, let alone the shorter catechism or the larger catechism, you would have done much better in this examination.

01:35:29

I have eight -year -old children in my church who could have answered a lot of the questions that you missed because they're being catechized, and their parents are taking the time to explore the scriptural foundations of these questions and to make application to the lives of these kids.

01:35:46

It's a treasure, and I can't emphasize enough how valuable it is in the lives of the children we've seen in my congregation and the testimonies

01:35:57

I've had from others, and even I've had mothers who are homeschooling who are using this as part of their

01:36:04

Bible curriculum who've come to me and said, you know, I have children who have disabilities, mental handicaps, who are able at least to articulate the basic questions and who light up when you ask them these questions.

01:36:22

You know, who made you? Why did God make you? And they're just able to begin to articulate what they believe as Christians.

01:36:32

Wow, praise God. Praise God. Yeah, it's just, the fruit is wonderful. We have an anonymous listener who says,

01:36:39

I have witnessed that among the most prevalent sins among our young children are greed, made evident in their unwillingness to let their siblings or other children play with or even touch their toys, or jealousy of attention.

01:37:01

We have children, when they notice another sibling or another child being paid attention to over and above themselves, they immediately throw some kind of tantrum or become disruptive in order to draw attention to themselves and rob that attention from the other child.

01:37:19

Do you agree with this assessment, and do you have any other sins that are prevalent amongst young children that perhaps catechizing them would aid in getting them to reach a point of repentance even in their young and childlike hearts and minds?

01:37:35

Well, if you get to the catechism treatment of the Tenth Commandment and coveting, certainly you'll have an opportunity to address those sins.

01:37:44

James tells us that, you know, why do we have issues with this area?

01:37:52

Well, it's because we covet and we want and we don't want with the right motives, and we don't get what we want, and so we sin there.

01:37:59

You know, it's not just children, it's part of the human condition, but it certainly needs to be addressed and needs to be addressed early.

01:38:09

And the catechism does deal with the Tenth Commandment. I had a grandmother who used to, she had ten children, and eight children, sorry, but the other grandmother had ten.

01:38:21

She had eight children, and she would randomly give gifts to her children, not on their birthdays, not on any special occasions, but she would just give a gift, and she'd give it to one of the children.

01:38:34

Now, over time, they all got the same number of gifts, probably, or close to it, but what she was teaching them was that, you know, we don't all get treated the same all the time, and you need to learn to delight when someone else is delighting.

01:38:50

And so she would just randomly gift her children and then discipline and disciple the others to teach them that they needed to learn to delight in the blessings that others had received.

01:39:05

I thought that was a wonderful pattern for teaching our children this lesson early in life.

01:39:14

We have another anonymous listener who asks, is it proper, biblically speaking, to reward children with gifts for obeying their parents, and even for learning correctly a catechism and other things that please the parents and, of course, please

01:39:32

God? I'd be careful about rewarding them with gifts for basic obedience.

01:39:39

There is an obedience that is required just because you are the parents and they are the children, and God has ordained that authority structure, and they need to learn that obedience isn't always immediately rewarded.

01:39:56

Sometimes the rewards are long -term. But we do use it in the catechism structure.

01:40:02

When the kids do 25 questions, they come and they get a reward. They get a toy or a book or an ice cream gift certificate, and they're just worth a few dollars, but they're just an incentive.

01:40:16

And I don't think there's anything wrong with using incentives in teaching. I think it has its value, and it might be a chart with the gold stars like teachers used to do.

01:40:27

I don't know if they still do, but there are different ways you can incentivize and reward kids.

01:40:33

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that. But when it comes to basic obedience,

01:40:43

I hesitate to use just behavior mod on our children, and that's what rewards tend to be.

01:40:48

It's like training a dog. You can get a dog to do just about anything, and I think if you bribe your children, you can get them to do just about anything, but it's not teaching them the principle that you want taught.

01:41:01

You want that obedience to flow out of a heart condition, not just a desire for rewards. So it gets tricky there.

01:41:08

But I think in terms of helping them to learn the catechism, you could just say, I'm your parent.

01:41:13

You need to learn the catechism. That's fine. But I think a little sugar along with the medicine sometimes helps it go down.

01:41:22

We're going to have you hear a question, and then we'll have you answer the question when we return from our final break.

01:41:31

This is a much more brief station break than the last one, but if you are listening and you want to get in line to ask your own question,

01:41:40

I urge you to send in the question very quickly because we are rapidly running out of time. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:41:51

But we have Christopher in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks, should parents and other

01:42:00

Christians who are adults be very careful about embarrassing children in public when we are catechizing them along with other children and they get answers wrong or they just refuse to cooperate with the study?

01:42:16

How do we handle this delicately without candy coating the disobedience or the unwillingness of the children to learn at the same time not unnecessarily embarrassing them and having the appearance of cruelty?

01:42:32

We'll have you answer that when we come back from our final break. Remember, folks, if you want to send in a question, do it immediately to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:42:39

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That's liyfc .org. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

01:45:48

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

01:45:57

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how He shall be worshiped and how

01:46:03

He shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

01:46:11

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

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God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship.

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Performed with faith, joy, and sobriety. Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

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.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

01:46:57

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

01:47:14

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

01:47:24

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post -Tenebrous Luxe Bible Rebinding.

01:47:31

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post -Tenebrous

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Luxe is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

01:47:46

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my

01:47:56

Nestle All in 28th edition, with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a

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French tannery used to rebind a Reformation Study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

01:48:14

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

01:48:24

For more details on Post -Tenebrous Luxe Bible Rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

01:48:32

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. When Iron Trumpets Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:48:49

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

01:48:57

Iron Trumpets Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

01:49:03

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the

01:49:08

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

01:49:16

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

01:49:26

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Samson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

01:49:33

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

01:49:41

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

01:49:49

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the

01:49:54

Church Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

01:50:00

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Trumpets Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

01:50:09

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trumpets Iron Radio.

01:50:18

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:50:34

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

01:50:40

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

01:51:27

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net, that's hopereformedli .net,

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or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:51:43

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:52:02

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

01:52:08

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

01:52:16

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled

01:52:21

Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

01:52:27

Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

01:52:35

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

01:52:43

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

01:52:56

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

01:53:01

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

01:53:12

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

01:53:19

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878, 1 -800 -669 -4878, or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

01:53:33

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Linbrook Baptist Church on 225

01:53:41

Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

01:53:48

Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

01:53:54

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

01:54:02

We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

01:54:08

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

01:54:14

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

01:54:24

That's linbrookbaptist .org. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

01:54:34

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:54:42

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

01:54:49

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

01:54:55

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

01:55:08

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

01:55:21

Their website is cvbbs .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ.

01:55:33

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com. That's cvbbs .com.

01:55:41

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And you can also call cvbbs .com

01:55:49

at their toll -free number. And remember, you can only get contact with a human being

01:55:55

Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 4 30 p .m. Eastern Time. If you call outside of those hours, you will get a chimpanzee answering.

01:56:03

I'm only kidding. Call 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231,

01:56:10

Monday through Friday, 10 a .m. to 4 30 p .m. Eastern Time, if you choose to order by phone. And remember to ask for From the

01:56:16

Lips of Little Ones, the book by our guest today, Jeff Kingswood, A Study in the

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Catechism for Very Little People, published by Crown and Covenant Publications. That's cvbbs .com.

01:56:29

And now we are back with Jeff Kingswood and our previous listener, who

01:56:35

I can't remember if that listener was anonymous or not, but the listener asked about keeping children from being unnecessarily embarrassed in the way we react to them incorrectly answering or not answering at all catechism questions when there are other children present.

01:56:53

Yeah, it's a good question. We encourage this catechetical training to take place at home.

01:57:01

The parents prepare the children. They know their kids. They're not going to be out to embarrass their kids.

01:57:07

It's done in an atmosphere of loving nurture. They come to do the catechism for me, and there are times when

01:57:15

I'll ask a question, and they'll answer the two questions down. They've jumped ahead somehow, and I'll just gently remind them, say, no, you're answering this question.

01:57:24

Let's go back. And sometimes they need a prompt, and once the pump is primed out, out comes the answer.

01:57:31

So the idea is gentle nurture and not just robotic recitation.

01:57:38

We want these answers to be something the kids delight in.

01:57:44

At home, there are going to be days when you've got to repeat the question 20 times before you get it into them, but as far as embarrassing them, that's why we encourage it to be done in families.

01:57:58

Now, when they're a little older, we do do catechetical training with the kids, and the teachers are sensitive to that, and you quickly know which families are doing the homework and which aren't, and so you don't single out families where you know the kids just aren't going to be prepared, and you go talk to the parents, and that's what our elders do.

01:58:17

They go to the parents and say, hey, you know, our teachers have noticed that your kids are just not regularly prepared for class.

01:58:26

Is there something we can do to help? Is it a time issue? Whatever it is, and usually the response is positive.

01:58:36

Sometimes you get some pushback, but it's voluntary, not required. We encourage parents to do it, and we encourage them to do it in the setting of their home where it's a loving, nurturing setting for that.

01:58:50

Well, I want to remind our listeners that you can learn more about Grace Presbyterian Church in Woodstock, Ontario, California, Canada, gracepresbyterian .ca.

01:59:07

Also, don't forget about Banner of Truth, the ministry where our guest serves as a trustee, banneroftruth .org,

01:59:15

banneroftruth .org, and to find out more about their 2020 ministers' conferences, and don't forget to go to cvbbs .com

01:59:26

to order the book that we have been discussing today by our guest. That's cvbbs .com,

01:59:32

and that is to order the book, From the Lips of Little Ones.

01:59:39

Now, I just want to thank you, Pastor Jeff, for being our guest today. I look forward to your frequent return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater