Reforming FBC Bagdad (Interview with Zachary Cutts)

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00:18

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

00:21

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist, and I'm excited and honored today to welcome my guest, Zachary Cutts of the First Baptist Church of Baghdad.

00:33

Now it's not often that we get someone all the way from Iraq to come and visit with us.

00:39

Not quite.

00:40

Baghdad, Florida.

00:41

See, before I met you, I didn't even know there was a Baghdad, Florida.

00:45

Most people don't know about it.

00:46

Can you tell us about where it's at? We are near Pensacola, is the best way to explain it.

00:51

That's the closest major city to us would be Pensacola.

00:54

Okay, and you mentioned Milton earlier, isn't it? Yes, yeah.

00:56

We live in Milton.

00:58

Baghdad's pretty much Milton.

01:00

Gotcha.

01:00

Gotcha.

01:01

What is your position at your current church? I am the Ministry Operations Manager.

01:07

They like to call me Mom, but I would not answer to that, but that is the acronym.

01:12

The Ministry Operations Manager.

01:15

I help the elders.

01:16

That is my position.

01:17

I am there as their right-hand man.

01:19

Now are you on staff as that? Yes.

01:21

That is my staff position.

01:23

Oh, good.

01:24

Okay, so you're full-time ministry? Not full-time.

01:26

It is part-time.

01:27

We are pretty much all part-time.

01:29

We all are bi-vocational.

01:32

So, you know, full-time ministry, but bi-vocational is the best way to look at it, because all ministry is full-time.

01:39

But, yeah, I have a full-time position as a groundskeeper at another church.

01:45

Oh, okay.

01:46

So, I get to cut grass during the week and do ministry on the weekends and all kinds of fun stuff.

01:52

And your husband and a father.

01:53

Yes.

01:54

Yeah.

01:54

One thing.

01:55

She's not on camera right now, but I'll wave at her.

01:57

Your lovely wife is with us.

01:58

Yes.

01:58

My wife is here and my daughter.

02:00

Yep.

02:01

Over in the dark corner there of the studio, and we're proud to have you guys with us today.

02:08

You came on the program today.

02:10

We had a conversation about your church having gone through a time of reformation.

02:15

Yes, and still going through a time of reformation.

02:18

Yeah, wonderful.

02:19

And that's what we want to talk about today.

02:21

We're going to talk about God-reforming churches.

02:23

And what's great about today's program is we're doing this before our church is having our conference.

02:29

We're having a Bible conference in March on the subject of revival.

02:34

But we're not talking about those one-week revivals that churches often have, which is just somebody comes in and preaches a message and some people get saved and they call that revival.

02:43

But what we're going to be talking about is God's work in people's heart over time and how real revival often shows itself not in a single moment, but over a period of time, sometimes over multiple lifetimes.

02:57

And we see that in a church.

02:58

So we're going to be talking about that some when we get to that portion.

03:01

But as you know, you've seen the show.

03:04

I have.

03:04

Yeah.

03:04

And you're a listener, a watcher, and I want to say thank you for that.

03:11

But you know that on the show we do other things.

03:13

But I will say this.

03:14

If you're interested in just hearing about Zach's story, about the story of their church and the Reformation, there's going to be a time stamp in the description below that you can jump to and you can go right to that if you want to get past the preliminaries.

03:28

But we like you to stay for the preliminaries because we like to have a good time on Conversations with the Calvinists.

03:33

So we're going to now move to our next segment, which is called Craziest Things This Week.

03:42

Craziest Things This Week is when I allow my guest to be surprised by something that I thought was crazy.

03:50

I don't know if you've seen it.

03:51

Now this particular video, again, was taken from an online source.

03:55

I have no idea where this church is.

03:56

I have no idea who these people are.

03:58

And this is in no way intended to demean them in any way or anything like that.

04:04

This is just something that I think is a little crazy.

04:08

When you see it, I think you will agree.

04:11

And I just want your initial response.

04:13

If you were in a church, this happened.

04:16

And the guy is apparently preaching on Ephesians 6.

04:50

Very large sword.

04:52

That was quite the sword.

04:55

So have you seen that video? Yes, I have.

04:58

Okay, what was your thoughts when you saw it? We actually just finished a series in Ephesians, and we did the exact same thing.

05:04

No, I actually, what's funny is I saw it because of you.

05:09

I saw you post it on Twitter, and so I was like, I'm going to pretend like I didn't see this.

05:15

I'm not going to comment on it, because I'm like, he's going to show it to me, and it's going to be hilarious.

05:18

That's right.

05:19

So I didn't comment on it when you posted it on Twitter.

05:22

But I will say the thing that I noticed was the bell.

05:24

That's the part I like the best.

05:26

Just the ringing of the bell was pretty hilarious.

05:28

Nice.

05:28

That's a good catch.

05:29

I didn't think about that.

05:30

I don't know what part the bell is in the armor of God, but I was all for the ringing of the bell.

05:37

What got my attention most about that video is I am, as most people know, I do karate.

05:43

I've done karate for almost 30 years now, and I have a small collection of swords that I have gotten over the years.

05:52

I like weaponry, so I have my sword collection, my knife collection, things like that.

05:57

Was that a good technique he was using? Not at all.

06:00

That's a good question, actually.

06:03

No, there was a point at which he almost whacked somebody's head off.

06:07

I don't know if anybody goes back and watches that.

06:09

There's a point where there's somebody walking by, and he draws the sword back, and I was like, that sword has to weigh several pounds, and if it were to just whack somebody, I mean, it could take off a limb.

06:22

I don't think it's fake.

06:24

No, no, it looked real.

06:25

And this is where the silliness of hyper-ultra-charismaticism can take us, where instead of just preaching the word and having God change hearts, we end up with, well, what's the craziest thing we can do? Well, let's swing a sword and maybe whack somebody in the head.

06:47

Then we'll prove whether or not we're really healers.

06:50

There's a certain limit that I'm okay with when it comes to illustrations, dancing around with a sword and ringing a bell and running around like crazy.

06:57

That definitely crosses that limit.

07:01

Absolutely, absolutely.

07:03

All right, well, we come now to the part of the program where we talk about our giveaway, and we try to give away stuff periodically on the program, and many of you have been donating things to the program for us to give away, and I want to give an immediate thank you for everyone who's made a donation.

07:17

And this week, we're going to be giving away D.A.

07:20

Carson's The God Who Was There, not only the book, but also the leader guide, and I'm going to employ Zachary's wife to help me.

07:29

I have all of the names that were given to us that went on to our YouTube page and left their favorite Southern phrase, so I'm going to ask Zachary's wife if she'll come over.

07:39

She won't be on screen, unfortunately, but she's going to just reach over and pull a sheet.

07:45

All right, very good.

07:47

Thank you so much.

07:49

Now, I'm going to hand this sheet to Zachary.

07:51

Don't look at it yet.

07:52

Okay.

07:52

And I'm going to ask you to pick a number, one to four.

07:56

Three.

07:57

All right.

07:58

So the number that he's picking is the number three, so the winner is the third one down on that sheet.

08:03

You're going to pick it up, tell us the name of the person, and you're going to tell us what their favorite Southern phrase is.

08:11

Number three is Travis Van Meter.

08:14

Oh, that's a pastor, Pastor Travis.

08:16

I know him personally.

08:17

Okay, awesome.

08:18

Good deal.

08:18

My favorite Southern phrase is, the devil is beating his wife, referring, of course, to the phenomena of the sun shining while it's raining.

08:29

Oh my goodness.

08:31

I've heard it, but okay.

08:34

I've never used that one.

08:35

I've never, me either, but I'm familiar with it.

08:38

Travis, thank you for being a listener and viewer of the program.

08:42

Thanks for being my friend as well.

08:43

Like I said, he's a pastor down in the Ocala area.

08:46

We met last year at a church camp, and he's a wonderful man of God.

08:50

And I want to say thank you for watching the program, and you will be receiving a copy of The God Who Was There and The God Who Was There, Leader God, which is nice that it's going to a pastor.

09:01

You may be able to use that in some way for your church.

09:04

So thank you, Zachary, and thank you, Mrs.

09:07

Kutz, for helping us.

09:08

Emily.

09:08

Emily is her name.

09:09

I haven't said her name yet.

09:10

Emily and Hadassah is my daughter.

09:12

Aw.

09:13

Emily is my wife.

09:14

Hadassah is my daughter.

09:15

Awesome.

09:15

Well, thank you, Emily and Hadassah, for helping us with our giveaway this week.

09:21

All right, Zach, well, now we're going to move on to our game, and our game is called National Treasure.

09:29

Now National Treasure is not about the movie National Treasure with Nicolas Cage.

09:33

National Treasure is a game that is designed by me to take a pop culture icon, a person from popular culture, someone who we might say is a national treasure.

09:44

I'm going to name a person from popular culture, and you have to tell me why I might think that person is a national treasure.

09:52

Now we don't know each other super well, so this is going to maybe be a little bit more difficult because you're not trying to tell me why you think this person is.

09:59

You're telling me why I would pick this person.

10:02

What makes this person a cultural phenomenon? And what stamp have they left on the popular culture scene? And so again, and this all started, for those who don't know, this is a game in my house because my children, I one time mentioned Tom Selleck, and my kids didn't know who Tom Selleck was.

10:23

Now I don't know if you guys do.

10:25

Okay, all right.

10:25

Because Tom Selleck, it hurt my heart that they didn't know who Magnum P.I.

10:29

was.

10:30

And I said, this man is a national treasure, and you don't know.

10:33

And my kids were, no, you need to know.

10:37

And so I introduced them to Magnum P.I.

10:40

All right, so we're going to now do our national treasure game, and I'm going to give you a name that is relevant more recently because you're not an 80s kid.

10:53

See, my 80s, you go to my Twitter page, it says lover of all things 80s, especially 80s movies.

10:58

That's what I do, is I know 80s stuff.

11:01

But I'm going to give you something more recent, and I want you to tell me why you think this person would be relevant.

11:07

And remember, you're at relevant to me, relevant to me, why this person would be relevant to me.

11:13

All right.

11:14

The name is George Clooney.

11:19

George Clooney, relevant to you? George Clooney.

11:26

Think hard.

11:26

Think about me, if you know me.

11:28

And maybe you don't know me as well, but ...

11:31

Man, I can only think of why he's relevant to me, so I'm just going to guess that because it's going to be a wide open guess.

11:36

I love Ocean's Eleven, so ...

11:37

Oh, man.

11:39

Ocean's Eleven is good.

11:41

Ocean's Eleven is good.

11:42

That's one of my favorites, so that would be where I would go, would be Ocean's Eleven, but ...

11:48

Yeah, it was good.

11:50

It was good.

11:50

It was good.

11:51

I would have said the worst Batman.

11:53

That was why.

11:55

Yeah, I should have thought comic book superhero.

11:58

Batman, that's me.

11:59

Yeah, yeah.

11:59

George Clooney, even though I'm one of those guys who would watch a terrible superhero movie any time, so I still watch the George Clooney Batman with my kids, because it's clean and it's fun and it's based on the same camp as the old Adam West Batman, so George Clooney gets a pass, even though he himself has said he did the character wrong, I still enjoy it.

12:25

I still think it's a lot of fun.

12:26

All right.

12:26

So thank you for playing my game, National Treasure, and that, again, is patent pending.

12:33

Well, now we come to the part of the program that is most important, and that's where we talk about the story of Reformation within Baghdad Church.

12:41

Now you and I have talked a little bit about this off air, and we've shared a little bit online, but I really want to begin by sort of asking you a series of questions, and just let you have the time to expand and tell the story, because I love to hear stories of churches that are moving in a good direction.

12:59

We know so many churches are going in bad directions.

13:02

So many churches are going towards things like Bethel and all of these other directions of this sort of hyper-charismania stuff, but you guys are going the other direction.

13:13

You guys are going in a reformed direction, which, again, is close to my heart, because our church went through a time of reformation, and it's still, I mean, I would say we're still reforming, right? Yes.

13:22

Yes.

13:22

Semper Reformanda, always reforming.

13:25

So tell me your church's FBC, so First Baptist Church.

13:30

Yes, First Baptist Church.

13:32

Give us a little bit of a history of the church.

13:34

I'm not exactly an expert on the history.

13:38

I know it's been there for over 100 years.

13:41

It's been there for a long time, been through many different pastors.

13:45

I will say it's gone through its series of very strong anti-Calvinist leanings, and then it has recently, over the last five years, shifted back in the other direction with the elder that was there when I got hired.

14:02

He had been there for a few years doing music ministry, youth ministry, associate pastor ministry.

14:10

The pastor that was there at the time stepped down.

14:13

Pastor Stephen got hired on as the pastor.

14:17

He is a Calvinist, and so he didn't immediately say, we're Calvinists now.

14:21

He just taught the Bible and taught it faithfully as he saw it.

14:25

All right, everyone, I'm here.

14:26

I've come, and Calvin has come with me.

14:29

It's like, you ever see, oh goodness, the Doc Holliday, what is it, Tombstone? Tombstone, yeah.

14:36

I'm coming, and Hades is coming with me.

14:40

Yes.

14:41

Well, okay.

14:42

Somebody's going to tag that.

14:43

Somebody's going to say, I compare John Calvin to Hades.

14:47

Exactly.

14:48

All right, so I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

14:50

No, no, no, you're good.

14:51

So, yeah, he came in, just kind of taught the Bible faithfully, but at the time we had no official reformed position.

14:58

I, at the time, wasn't even a Calvinist.

15:01

When I got hired, I was actually into the Leighton Flowers, Soteriology 101 kind of Okay, we're not allowed to use that name on this program.

15:10

Oh, we're not allowed to? No, I'm just kidding.

15:11

Is it going to be censored because I mentioned it? No, no, no, but if you use his name, he will know.

15:16

Oh, yeah.

15:17

Yeah.

15:17

I would love to be featured in a Leighton Flowers video.

15:20

That would be hilarious.

15:25

Trust me, it's not all it's cracked up to be.

15:27

He's going to have to edit out all of the things I say this morning.

15:30

I'll say something about it because it just happened to me yesterday.

15:34

I was driving home and my phone started blowing up and said, hey, you're on Soteriology 101 and I was like, no, I'm not.

15:41

I'm in my truck.

15:43

I'm headed home.

15:44

And it was a little surreal seeing your face and your name.

15:49

But he was not ungracious.

15:52

I disagree with most of what he said, but I was thankful that he said some nice things that were, I think, were brotherly.

16:02

No, he seems like a nice guy.

16:03

Yeah, so in that sense, if he does hear this, I hope he hears that, that I was appreciative of the tone.

16:10

I didn't think it was mean-spirited.

16:12

But go ahead.

16:14

So yes, if we get, you mentioned the name, so that's where you were.

16:17

You were in the, you were in the, going in the.

16:19

Yeah, so I was very much into, they didn't yet call themselves provisionalists.

16:23

It was still traditionalists at the time.

16:26

So that was kind of my mindset when it came to election and predestination.

16:30

But he even asked me, he was like, are you a Calvinist? I was like, I'm not.

16:34

And he's like, that's fine.

16:35

We'll hire you anyways, as long as you believe the gospel and you have good doctrine and have all the other areas.

16:40

And so got hired on as a youth minister.

16:45

And then really things didn't start changing into the direction that we're going.

16:50

I was in 2018 when I got hired.

16:53

Things really started taking off in 2020, but I don't know how far you want me to get into telling that whole part of the story, because there's a whole lot of details once 2020 hits.

17:02

Well, I am curious, because that's, we're talking now, we're getting into pre-COVID, right before COVID.

17:08

Did that have a big effect? It did.

17:10

That wasn't the kickoff for us.

17:15

One of the biggest events that took place in our church in a tragic way is we had a deacon die.

17:23

That was one of the biggest, very tragic, young, not expected to be a thing that would happen to our church at all.

17:32

And so that was one of the biggest transition points, because he was the main children's church leader.

17:39

So that's going to, further on, once we get into that part of the story and how that transitioned, we had the question of, how are we going to replace this man who was leading in our children's church ministry and was doing a great job at it? What are we going to do? How are we going to move forward? And then COVID also shut things down around the same time.

18:01

So that was a big part of our transition.

18:05

Well, I do have two questions to ask, because as you're leading through the story, two things pop into my mind.

18:12

Are you guys family integrated now? Yes.

18:15

Okay.

18:15

So did you guys become family integrated by necessity, or was it a mixture of necessity and conviction, or was it only conviction? Yeah.

18:26

I'll explain exactly how it happened.

18:28

So we're having meetings together, staff meeting.

18:31

We've got deacons, people on staff all together, gathered together to say, how are we going to bring back children's church? How are we going to make this happen? So a whole bunch of ideas were thrown out, or thrown in, I should say.

18:47

And some of them I was very much against, but I was just the youth minister and I have these older men in the faith.

18:54

I have my pastor there.

18:55

So I'm just trying to be quiet and just take in everyone's opinion.

19:00

We had ideas from the youth leading children's church, and children's church having an entire service on Sunday mornings, meaning they would have their Sunday school class, which then would lead into children's church, and the youth would have their Sunday school class, which would lead into children's church.

19:18

That idea scared me, because then they would never be with the adults.

19:22

They would never – there would be no gathering whatsoever of the church, because Wednesday nights we're kind of separated, and then Sundays we would be separated.

19:31

So I'd be like, when exactly are we gathering together? So I voiced that opinion, just me and the pastor.

19:39

We talked about it, and he agreed, of course.

19:42

He was like, yes, we need to have times where we are together.

19:45

But at the time, we were making an awkward transition to where he's like, we'll have children's church.

19:52

We'll have full-time children's church, but instead of having youth teach it, how about you teach it? And he asked me to teach children's church.

20:00

And so I took that as an opportunity to essentially train the children in what a church service – and kind of a, to use the word, liturgy – kind of what that would look like, the actual order of a service.

20:16

And so we sang hymns, we took an offering, I preached a sermon, we had our version of an invitation closed with a hymn.

20:25

We had times of prayer.

20:26

We made it look exactly like our Sunday morning church service, just in children's church.

20:32

I didn't do games.

20:33

I didn't do a lot of anything like that.

20:35

I just wanted them to get used to sitting, singing songs, and listening to preaching, and being able – because I knew eventually they would be back in the church.

20:44

And so I was going to prepare them for it and get them ready when we went to the family-integrated side.

20:50

So that was before we got shut down because of COVID.

20:55

Once we got shut down, we started having some one-on-one conversations, me and the pastor, and he was saying, when we go back to church, how do we want to handle children's church? What do we want to do? Because I also am involved in music ministry.

21:13

I was playing drums at the time.

21:15

I'm doing a lot more than that now.

21:17

So he was like, I know you want to get back into doing music.

21:21

What do we want to do as far as children's church? And I had, in my desire to grow as a youth minister, had started just randomly looking up YouTube videos of people and YouTube ministry, people that I trusted.

21:36

And I came across Vodie Bauckham.

21:39

And I looked up – The gateway drug to family integration.

21:42

Yes.

21:43

I had seen a video of his before where he was essentially talking about how he left youth ministry altogether, stopped doing conferences, stopped doing all of those things.

21:55

And he himself and his church went completely family-integrated.

21:58

And the first time I saw that video years ago, I ignored it because I'm a youth minister.

22:03

There's a good way to do youth ministry.

22:05

I'm not going to go that extreme.

22:07

And then I went back in 2020, watched it again.

22:11

And I was like, oh wow, he's just being biblical.

22:14

Like everything he's saying makes perfect sense.

22:18

And so I presented that idea to Pastor Steven.

22:22

I said, hey, this is what I've been watching.

22:24

This is what I've been learning from.

22:26

He also is a great respecter of Vodie Bauckham.

22:28

And he was like, I agree.

22:30

When we go back, let's just bring the children into the service, but just don't say anything about it at first.

22:36

So that's what we did.

22:37

We went back and they were just there.

22:39

And then we slowly started making the process where we were going to become more family-integrated.

22:48

And that before it was official, we kind of stepped away from a lot of big youth events and a lot of youth ministry things.

22:56

And one of the things that I wanted to do to help with the transition was I started a family discipleship class, which was the idea behind that was not just for us to show up so I could disciple the families, but instead I would help in training parents to be able to do family discipleship at home and to understand why are we going in this direction.

23:20

So I literally promoted it as if you want to come argue with me, if you're mad at me for getting rid of youth group, if you are wondering why we don't have children's church, please come to this class and let's have a discussion and see if we're being biblical in the decisions that we make.

23:35

Did you have a lot of pushback? Did you find yourself – was there some arguing? There was a little bit, not so much arguing.

23:43

The people that had any kind of pushback were people that saw great results of people being saved from children's ministry and youth ministry.

23:51

So faithful members, not people that are troublemakers, not people that are busybodies, but people that are like, hey, we've seen youth that are in this church that are saved because of these ministries.

24:02

Sure.

24:03

We've had – I had one lady specifically was like, I'm saved because of youth ministry.

24:09

Like I wouldn't be saved because my parents were unchurched and I – like this is what led me to Christ.

24:16

And so there was a big discussion of how would we still minister to the youth and the children whose parents are not going to come to a church building.

24:26

And that's the most difficult part when you come to the idea of family integration is you kind of lose the – just drop your kid off and let them go to youth group if there's not that type of ministry there.

24:41

But that goes into further things that I've seen other churches do that help with that and other ministry areas.

24:48

At the church I was at before, which did have children's church, we had what was called our LEAF ministry.

24:54

And if you were a LEAF parent, you had a kid essentially that was assigned to you because we had a bus ministry and they'd go pick up about 50 kids, bring them to the church.

25:04

And if you know – if you have 50 kids with no parents there on a Sunday morning service just running around, somebody has to be the adult that rambles up these kids.

25:14

And so they – at Ferris Hill Baptist Church, they started what was called their LEAF ministry.

25:19

And so we had trusted members of the church that essentially adopted these kids into their family.

25:25

So they – like you're going to come sit with us, you're going to hang out with us, you're going to – if we take the Lord's Supper and you're able to do that, you're going to take the Lord's Supper with us, you're going to do all of those things.

25:36

But we haven't quite got to that point at Baghdad yet where that's needed.

25:40

But that is definitely something I'm praying and thinking on is what happens when we just have random children that might get dropped off and feel like they don't have a place to go.

25:51

Yeah.

25:51

And I've had that question in our church.

25:53

How do you minister to kids whose parents aren't here? If you're doing everything through the parent.

25:57

And we do a similar – you talked about the discipleship class.

26:03

We do something called Dads and Dudes where I focus primarily on ministry to fathers.

26:09

We do it once a month where the men meet at 6.30 on a Saturday morning and we talk about how's your family worship, how's it been getting the kids to church, how's it been sitting with your kids in church.

26:22

Because I mean if you've got – like us, I mean we've got six kids, two are adults but four are 10 and under.

26:28

It can be hard.

26:29

And my wife's like a single mom because I'm not able to help.

26:31

I'm up on the chancel preaching.

26:33

I can't be down there.

26:34

And when I say like a single mom, you understand what I mean.

26:36

She doesn't have – so thankfully there are people who will help out, who will wrangle.

26:42

My dad and my stepmom thankfully are members of the church and they can help.

26:46

But that's what we talk about is we talk about in Dads and Dudes how to do that.

26:51

And one of the questions that often does come up is what do you do about the kids who don't have parents? And it is – I like the adoption idea and that's sort of the language we've used.

27:02

If you see a child who needs attention, then give them that attention.

27:11

And again, I love the idea that you guys chose – and I know this isn't at your current church but at the other church – you guys chose the respected, trusted people to handle this.

27:23

Yeah.

27:24

You had to sign up and essentially be approved to be a leaf parent.

27:28

You couldn't just randomly grab a kid and be like, that one's mine.

27:32

So who's this guy we don't know who just adopted 14 kids? Yeah, absolutely.

27:38

All right.

27:39

Well, I do want to – I have another question that came to mind while you were talking and that – because you talk about Stephen, the pastor, as being very willing to have his mind changed.

27:56

How old is he? He's a couple of years older than I am.

27:59

Okay.

28:00

So I thought he was a younger man.

28:02

Yes.

28:02

And I haven't even gotten to the point of our – we also merged with another church and so I haven't even gotten to the other elder yet.

28:10

That's another big part of our actual Reformation story but we'll get to that once we – Yeah, yeah.

28:15

I want to get there.

28:16

But the thing that was – and I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush but I've been doing this for a while and I have found that a lot of people get set like concrete gets set over time and people tend to get set in certain ideas.

28:37

And a younger minister sometimes will be more willing to listen to correction than an older minister.

28:45

And again, please, I know somebody's going to email me and say, well, I'm an older minister and I'm not unteachable.

28:49

I'm not saying older ministers are unteachable.

28:52

Yes.

28:52

But I see myself getting older.

28:55

I feel myself getting older as age creeps in and you begin to get very solidified sort of in this is what I've done, this is what works, this is what I'm going to continue to do.

29:08

Yeah.

29:09

So when you told me that you went to him with a Votibachum message and you challenged him on family integration and he said, let's do it, I was like, this is a young guy.

29:20

And I will say in most of those situations when it comes to our ministry, Stephen and I have pretty much always lined up even if we haven't had a conversation yet.

29:31

So me being able to come to him and say, hey, this is what I've been looking on, usually 99% of the time means that God's already been working on his heart on those things and he already shares the same convictions.

29:42

Very few times, if any, has it been like, you're wrong, and he changed his mind because I was right.

29:48

Normally, he knows exactly the direction we need to go.

29:52

He's got the wisdom to do it in the right timing, whereas I, a lot of times, I'm like, let's rush through this, let's just run into it.

29:59

And I'm being taught that reformation, a lot of times, is a slow turning of the ship.

30:05

As Pastor Austin, who is our other elder, he has said that many times and used that kind of language that it is a slow process to reform a church.

30:14

Some things feel quick and sudden because if you just get rid of a program and it's just gone, well, that's pretty sudden.

30:21

But overall, reformation is a slow, lifelong process.

30:26

Well, I want to hear about Austin in a minute, but before, I want to capitalize on something you just said, which is it's true.

30:34

It's not only a long process, but it's more than just what people think it is.

30:38

Some people think reforming a church is introducing Calvinism and introducing reform doctrine when that may be the least of the changes.

30:51

Oh, yeah, yeah, I've got things to say about this.

30:53

Yeah, because, I mean, ultimately, where someone stands on the doctrines of grace is important, but I don't know about you, but we have people in our church that aren't fully convinced Calvinists.

31:05

Oh, yeah, we definitely do.

31:06

Yeah, I mean, and that's fine.

31:07

We don't consider them less than or outside the kingdom, but we all are in mission together to preach the gospel and teach together, right? And so that's not the primary.

31:22

Even though that's what we teach and this is what we believe, that's not the thing that binds us.

31:27

The thing that binds us is the gospel.

31:29

And so, but you said you had something you wanted to add.

31:31

Yeah, I was going to say the biggest part of our reformation so far has not been turning Calvinistic, though, and we'll get into this part of it.

31:44

We are adopting the 1689 Confession, so we've been going through a class on Wednesday nights and we've told members, hey, show up because we're going through this entire confession, going through a study that Chapel Library puts out so that we're able to kind of understand this and we will most likely eventually adopt this and this will be our confession.

32:07

But other than that, our reformation hasn't been so much about the soteriology and Calvinism as much as are we doing church biblically? Is the way we're ordering our service, is the way we're doing things on a Sunday or during the week, how we're operating as a church? And so I believe, though I believe in the doctrines of grace, I think a church could reform itself and be biblical in how it does church, even if they're not Calvinistic.

32:36

I think they should look into the ideas of, are the ways that we're handling our worship and our preaching and the ways we do church, is it just lined up with the Bible? Before you even get into the idea of how are we saved and as far as God's sovereignty.

32:54

So our focus right now has not even really been on Calvinism, it's more been on how you go from being a more traditional Southern Baptist church, which has a certain structure that most Southern Baptist churches in the South have, to transitioning to be a reformed Baptist, but still Southern Baptist church.

33:17

You're totally speaking my language and the reason why I say that is because we went through a period in 2008, you've probably heard me talk about this on the program, where we went through our time of reformation and what was born out of that was not so much the reformed doctrines as even though that was part of it.

33:35

I wrote a book, The Biblically Functioning Church, which I'm going to give you a copy of by the way.

33:41

Don't let me forget.

33:42

I'm going to let you take that.

33:42

I have one on my shelf I can give you.

33:45

That is, what it was, was an entire year worth of preaching on ecclesiology and it was my, the book is the distillation of those sermons because you're right, the thing that we recognize we needed to reform was our church ecclesiology, not, yeah, the doctrines of soteriology, those are important and please don't think for a second I'm saying those don't need to be reformed.

34:11

They do.

34:11

They do.

34:12

Yes.

34:12

But the thing that is so vital that so many people miss is how the church functions and we see in a lot of Southern Baptist life and I'm not a Southern Baptist but I did attend a Southern Baptist seminary so I can say, I went to Jacksonville Baptist Theological Seminary.

34:33

I feel like I can speak at least somewhat familially with this, like I'm part of the family even though I'm not in the family.

34:40

I'm like a distant cousin and I do think a lot of the problem in Southern Baptist life is the, for lack of a better term, the ecclesiastical polity.

34:52

How we do church and whether it's, we've already talked about youth ministry or just the overall structure of who is the, what's the authority in the church? Is it the deacons? Is it the pastor? Is it the word of God? Yeah.

35:08

And how do you guys manage that? Do you all have a constitution? So we are in the process of kind of changing and reforming bylaws and bringing in a covenant and all these different things because we actually, and this is where my dates are going to get kind of hazy, but within the last year we have merged with another church.

35:34

This is not really my story to tell, but I'll give my side of it.

35:39

If you ever had Steven and Austin in here, they could give you the full details of it and it would be awesome.

35:44

But we went through a season in our church where our worship pastor at the time, so we had Steven, then the worship pastor, and then myself.

36:00

The worship pastor was forced to resign.

36:04

And so then it was just me and Steven and Steven had really this time where he said he was really close to kind of being like, all right, I think this is the end for me.

36:15

I think God is bringing this to the end of my ministry, like things are not going well.

36:20

And so he was in his house, he's able to, at the time was able to come home during his lunch break.

36:28

And so he was there just randomly one day, normally wouldn't be there during that time.

36:33

And he was just kind of sitting there praying and just kind of in a, I guess you could say a depressive state and he gets a knock on his door.

36:43

And there is a man there that had randomly shown up to the church.

36:48

His name is Austin and his church was looking for a building where they could meet in and they also, he's a part of First Love Ministries, which is a publishing ministry that sends out reformed material, I guess I should say, all over the world.

37:08

And so he was like, we need a place where we could meet as a church.

37:13

And eventually the conversation came where we could store some books.

37:17

So they joined in, they had a good conversation, and they had a conversation about how his church was reformed.

37:26

1689, their church was called Christ Evangel.

37:30

So they were a small body and they would meet an hour building after our service.

37:37

So they would meet about one o'clock after our church service was over.

37:42

And so eventually what ended up happening is more and more conversations between Stephen and Austin were happening to where eventually they felt the conviction and eventually shared it with me of, let's just merge the churches together and actually have a dual eldership.

37:59

Because right now we have two churches with one elder.

38:02

Let's have something close to an actual multiplicity of elders, completely on equal ground, like one of them is not the boss of the other, completely equal, and actually join those churches together.

38:15

And it has been a great blessing.

38:18

That took place really about close to six months ago now, but the process has been like a year long of us walking through that.

38:28

So now we've got a whole lot of things going on ministry-wise because Pastor Austin was involved in many things, mission trips to Nigeria, the Philippines, like multiple different things he was involved in through First Love Ministries.

38:46

And so those things have now become part of the ministry of FBC Baghdad because now we are all FBC Baghdad.

38:55

So it's been a very exciting time of reformation and being able to kind of change how we are structured and it is great to have more than one elder.

39:08

As I said before, they are bivocational.

39:12

Austin works for First Love Ministries and he is also able, because of that, he's able to be up at the church throughout the week.

39:20

Pastor Steven has a secular job for the city.

39:23

He does IT.

39:25

So he's pretty much gone during the week.

39:28

Now with the dual eldership, Austin is able to be at the church during the week, which is good to be able to have somebody there that can show up there, be able to have times of discipleship and do those different things.

39:42

So they've been able to kind of carry each other's burdens in a way that have been really good.

39:46

And then like I said before, I'm kind of the right hand man to both of them that if they need something from me, they come to me and they ask for it and I'm able to kind of help and support them in both of those things.

39:57

Yeah, you're the mom.

39:58

Yeah, I am the mom apparently.

40:00

Yeah.

40:01

Well, that's interesting.

40:03

I'm always curious about structure in other churches and so like we have three elders here.

40:09

We're all ordained.

40:09

We're all pastors in the church, but I'm the primary preaching pastor.

40:15

Is there, how do they do that? Are they pulpit sharing or how does that work? Yeah, it is.

40:23

Well, like I said, we just finished the book of Ephesians.

40:26

So since we're kind of still going through a transition period, the last chapter of Ephesians, Pastor Austin taught all of it because Stephen wanted to kind of expose the church like, hey, this is how he preaches.

40:40

This is who he is.

40:42

But it is pretty much been not broken down percentagely, but it's as 50-50 as it can be.

40:50

They pretty much not necessarily go back week to week.

40:53

They might do one person does this series of verses and then the next person will do the other.

41:00

They kind of plan it out how they want to do it, but there's not an official like teaching pastor or elder and then another elder.

41:10

They both teach and preach pretty equally.

41:15

And then we did just start back our Sunday night service.

41:18

We brought that back and we have a time of preaching and service that leads into our prayer meeting.

41:24

And right now, Pastor Austin is preaching through the book of Jude on Sunday nights.

41:30

And so it's pretty equal.

41:31

I wouldn't say that either one of them is the primary teaching or preaching pastor.

41:37

It's pretty 50-50.

41:39

Nice.

41:39

Nice.

41:40

All right.

41:40

So getting back to the transition, because what you just said was very interesting of how two churches merge, become one church, and in one sense, two churches that only had a single elder, which is, I would say, a less than optimal situation.

42:01

In my book, I talk about how you need a plurality of elders, and I do believe the Bible calls for a plurality of elders.

42:08

I also say it's better to have no elders than bad elders, but that's another conversation because bad elders are tough, but when you get good godly men that come together and work together and have a desire to work together, then you have something special.

42:24

That sounds like what you guys have, and so that's wonderful.

42:29

So the merging of the two churches, and this is First Baptist Baghdad, how was that received by the members? That's a question I have because, I mean, sometimes people have a feeling like this is mine and that's theirs.

42:49

Have they come together and really – It has been good, and we had a lot of really long conversations about these things in the form of business meetings, which all SBC churches, they love their business meetings.

43:04

Oh, yes.

43:04

So I say that sarcastically.

43:06

Oh, yes.

43:07

God bless the business meeting.

43:09

Yes.

43:10

So one of the great things is because they were meeting at the church, they also at the time gave Pastor Austin office space in Pastor Stephen's office.

43:23

So he was up at the church kind of helping with our ministry areas already, and we were also having some crossover where we were helping them – helping Christ Evangel and helping Austin with the ministries that he was doing as well.

43:38

We even supported them financially to send him – I believe it was to Nigeria, if I'm detail correct.

43:45

About a year ago now, they needed some money for a plane ticket.

43:50

Our church said, let's do it.

43:51

And we gave to it.

43:53

So there was an investment in each other's ministries and a love for the members of each church before we ever merged.

44:02

And so it was kind of presented as, you guys are already doing this, why don't you just actually make it official and really follow through with this? And so there were the original fears of, okay, if we adopt this church, if FBC Baghdad takes in Christ Evangel, are we just going to do everything they're doing and kind of give up what we're doing? And so we had to assure them that neither church is giving up their ministries, neither church is giving up the missions that they have been called to, that it's literally a merging together and a working together.

44:39

And at first, joining together, it felt like two churches kind of just meeting together because you have members of different churches that are now all sitting together.

44:50

But over the past few months, we've had a lot of good times of fellowship with these members.

44:56

And to me, at least, it doesn't feel like two churches anymore.

44:58

It feels like we are now one church and we are now FBC Baghdad, and we're very excited with the members that we gained through this process.

45:08

Well, praise the Lord for that.

45:10

So Austin's church was already 1689.

45:13

Yes.

45:14

But the FBC Baghdad was not, but you guys were already going in the direction of reform.

45:20

Not yet.

45:23

So what we have done is on Wednesday nights, we started a class called Confessions, Creeds, and Catechisms.

45:32

And so what we did...

45:34

Which I'm sure is super popular in Southern Baptist life, because those three things are usually not...

45:40

All about confessions and creeds and catechisms.

45:43

So we walked through, I believe we did creeds first.

45:46

We walked through like the Apostles' Creed.

45:49

We walked through and it kind of said, you know, this is what you pretty much have to believe to be a Christian.

45:54

Like this is kind of your basic, this is what we believe.

45:58

This is our creed as Christians.

46:00

This is what it means to have a creed.

46:03

And we went through kind of the history of that and taught through those things.

46:08

And then we went through the Baptist faith and message.

46:12

Went through the entire thing, taught through it.

46:15

Really not to shut it down, but to actually say, this is why we still hold to this.

46:21

This is why we believe what it says here.

46:24

We might change some wording here or there, but this is why we can hold to the Baptist faith and message.

46:30

And then we brought in the, to teach, the 1689 to really show these things don't contradict each other.

46:39

You are able to be Southern Baptist and adopt the Baptist faith and message and what it...

46:44

Because it's very general.

46:45

There's not a lot of things that are very specific in the Baptist faith and message.

46:49

Yeah, I know a lot of Calvinistic pastors who would feel like they can still affirm it, especially certain portions of it, which can be read in a Reformed or non-Reformed way.

47:00

And so we, that's kind of how we handled it is we really kind of walked the church through this idea of knowing what the creeds are, knowing what we believe, having this idea of, we actually, I think we moved to catechism after that when we taught through, I believe it was Spurgeon.

47:22

Spurgeon.

47:23

Spurgeon's catechism and walked through that and went through all the verses and had some good conversation through that.

47:30

And then now we're slowly finishing our study through the London Baptist, the Second London Baptist Confession, the 1689, because we always get stuck on some conversations.

47:42

They always come in, especially Pastor Austin, who'll be like, hey, I'm going to cover three chapters tonight.

47:47

We'll get like three questions in and then a conversation happens for the next hour.

47:52

But we're wrapping up that study and going through the technical details of how we adopt those things and work on bylaws and all those things that are not really fun that nobody wants to hear about.

48:06

But they're all official things that have to happen.

48:09

Oh yeah, and when those things get out of order, they can really be potentially problematic.

48:15

Especially as your church grows and people begin to hold onto those things and say, well, this is the way this bylaw says we have to do it this way.

48:24

There's a legality to it where you really have to make sure that you're following everything that's official.

48:33

So with that in mind, I do want to transition to another series of questions if that's okay.

48:40

Because I feel like I have a pretty good idea of sort of what has happened and I'm very thankful for what God has done in moving your church in this direction.

48:48

And the part that I wasn't aware of until just now was that the merging of the two churches has really brought a new church to life.

48:59

Two churches gave birth to a new, even though it's still FEC Baghdad, it's a new body.

49:04

It's a mixed between two churches have become one.

49:08

And there's a blessing there.

49:10

We've had a few times where there have been churches that have closed, like there was a Presbyterian church that closed nearby and several of their members came here and are still here.

49:23

That was over 10 years ago and they became members here and loved it and we love them and they were just the sweetest people.

49:32

And even though there was a few things that we had to get over at the beginning, little differences, obviously there's a little something about water that distinguishes us.

49:44

But we were able to talk through those things and work through those things and they became members here and it's been wonderful.

49:51

So with that in mind, I want to begin to sort of ask this question and that is, as you are going through the London Confession, as you're looking at these more Calvinistic things, what are some of the concerns that people are raising in your classes and things? Because I know what I hear, but I just want to see if it's similar to the things that I hear when I'm introducing someone who's never heard of it or someone who's not convinced about it to the subject of Calvinism.

50:28

So where we're at right now with the people that will actually show up and have a conversation, we're not having a lot of pushback when it comes to really the concept and the category of Calvinism.

50:44

Obviously we've taught through the ideas of not only of God's sovereignty, but providence and how God even uses not only the good things, but he uses sinful things.

51:00

Pastor Stephen likes to mention quite often that even the crucifixion of Jesus was said to be predestined and the things that Herod and Pontius Pilate and the Jews, that those things they carried out what the hand of God wanted them to carry out.

51:18

They were predestined to do those things.

51:21

So he kind of uses that to point to, well, if God can predestine that, then the things that are happening in your life, like yeah, he's predestining and working those things out too.

51:33

Even the things that would be considered maybe sinful, whether it's on your part or someone else's part.

51:39

Like God is sovereign and above things in a way that my brain can't understand it.

51:45

And so we've kind of been drilling that concept home for a while to where there's not a lot of pushback on God's sovereignty, or even if you wanted to say God's control, whatever words you wanted to use.

52:02

I'm comfortable with any of it because he created everything knowing everything that would happen.

52:08

There's some level of control no matter what view you take, unless you're an open theist, but I'd say open theists are ridiculous.

52:15

Yeah, that's a bridge too far.

52:19

I don't throw around the word heresy a lot just because I think it's too overly used.

52:25

Every time somebody says something people disagree with, oh, that's heresy.

52:28

Oh, that guy's a heretic.

52:29

And I just, I'm over that.

52:31

I can't, I just don't have the patience for that anymore.

52:36

But there is times when the H word, the heresy word is necessary.

52:46

And if open theism isn't at least somewhat heretical, then how would we even define heresy if we can't say that if God doesn't know the future because the future hasn't happened and therefore the days fashion for me were not written by him when I was in the womb, you know, which is what Psalm 139 seems to indicate that my days were fashion for me before there was one of them.

53:19

Um, but if God doesn't know the future, if God doesn't, if God's in time experiencing time as we do, and this is my understanding, maybe you could correct me.

53:31

Is that the open theists, what they say, right? God is experiencing time as we do.

53:36

I would, from what I have seen, um, and this, I want to sound gracious when I say this, but from what I have been exposed to, whatever definition you give of open theists, it won't be good enough unless you agree with open theism.

53:52

Um, that's what I have experienced in the forums and the message boards is like, whatever you say about their idea of God's knowledge and whether he knows the future or whether he doesn't, um, I have never seen a Calvinist give a definition that they accepted as, even if you read back to them what they said, they still would be like, well, we don't believe that.

54:13

Um, and they would say the same thing about Calvin.

54:16

That's a good point.

54:17

That's a good point.

54:18

Cause you know, we often do, you know, we dismiss our critics by simply saying, well, you just don't understand the position and it's, it's, it is dismissive to hear people say that to you.

54:30

Um, and especially when they're not being clear, you know, we'll be clear.

54:35

Does God know the future? Does he don't, you know, or the way I've heard it explained is, and I get that there's this idea of like dynamic omniscience and there's different ideas behind, um, behind, um, open theism.

54:48

But the way, the general explanation that I have heard is that God knows everything that is possible to be known.

54:58

And they would say that a future that has not happened yet, God knowing it is similar to God creating a rock that is too heavy to lift.

55:10

Um, they see it as being something that's absurd, that of course God knows all things, but the future is not a thing because it doesn't exist because it hasn't, it hasn't happened yet.

55:23

Um, that's, I think that would be probably the best representation of what I have heard.

55:27

Yeah.

55:27

And I've used that same, the same phrase cause I've heard it.

55:32

I heard it in a debate with Dr.

55:34

White when Dr.

55:36

White debated an open theist and I don't remember who it was, but the guy said, God knows all things that can be known, meaning the future because it hasn't happened is unknown because it hasn't happened.

55:48

And again, it goes back to my question of, well, are my days fashioned or not? Does God know when I'm going to die? And someone, if somebody says no, it hasn't happened yet, that, that bothers me on a, on a, on a level of, uh, understanding who God is.

56:07

Yeah.

56:07

And, uh, Dr.

56:08

James White also points out, I believe it's in Isaiah, um, where he points out the difference between the true God and the false gods as God is able to declare the end from the beginning.

56:20

And he's able to actually say, Hey, this is what's going to happen.

56:23

I'm going to speak it, say it, and then it's going to be carried out.

56:27

It's going to happen.

56:28

And so that's one of the proofs that he is God is that he knows the future both because he knows it and also because he is working all things out and he is, he is carrying out his plan.

56:39

We know that's true.

56:40

Um, but that is one of the things that's different between a false God and the true God is the false gods were not able to say, Hey, this is going to happen.

56:48

Even, you know, predicting the birth of Christ, being able to predict the different prophecies to say, Hey, this is going to happen in the future.

56:57

God's able to do that because he is God.

57:00

Amen.

57:01

Amen.

57:01

Absolutely.

57:02

Absolutely.

57:03

Well, brother, I am.

57:04

I've really enjoyed this conversation and we're getting to where we're close to the hour mark now.

57:08

So I want to start drawing to a close, but was there anything else about the story about FPC back down? And we sort of gone into a little open theism conversation that we went in all kinds of different directions.

57:17

I do that.

57:17

I tend to spider web often and that's fine.

57:20

That's what, that's what's great about having a conversation.

57:22

You know, we didn't come in here with a script.

57:24

Yeah.

57:24

I wanted to hear the story about your church.

57:26

I wanted to hear about the reformation.

57:27

I love the story of two churches becoming one.

57:30

I love the story of the pastors working together and being men of God that respect and trust each other.

57:38

I love you being a mom.

57:39

That's great.

57:41

Somebody's going to, somebody's going to make a meme out of that.

57:43

Yeah.

57:43

Zach, the mom.

57:44

Yeah.

57:45

But you know, but, but helping those men coming alongside of them, ministering with them, you know, that, you know, really serving the church, but serving them.

57:56

And so I'm thankful to hear all those things.

57:59

But, but I know you came here today to share things is I don't want you to feel like you didn't get to share any.

58:04

So there is one very important thing that if I didn't share, they'd be like, you wasted your time going to Jacksonville.

58:09

And that is, we do have a conference coming up.

58:13

First Love Ministries is putting on a conference being hosted at FBC Baghdad that is on the topic of regeneration and understanding the new birth.

58:24

It is a free conference.

58:26

One area that I dropped the ball is I was supposed to bring you a box of books from the First Love Ministries that I did not bring.

58:33

So I will make sure that those get to you.

58:35

We've got all kinds of awesome books picked out to be able to, to get to you.

58:39

So I'll make sure we put together that box from First Love.

58:44

And so we've got a conference coming up March 3rd through the 5th, first weekend of March.

58:51

So we've got a conference on the topic of regeneration and we've got people flying in from all over the country, both to speak and to attend this conference.

59:01

And we're hoping that we'll have also members or people from the community that will show up to this conference and be exposed to a different idea of regeneration and being born again than maybe they've ever been taught because they haven't heard it from a reformed point of view.

59:17

So we're hoping it kind of changes some hearts and some minds and kind of shifts people's theology when it comes to these things and just gives us a great time of fellowship and to go deeper in this knowledge.

59:30

And so we'll have some speaking times, times of preaching, our main sessions, and we'll also have some breakout sessions as well.

59:39

And it is free.

59:41

I'll have to get you the, I know I sent you the flyer, I'll have to send you the website where you can actually just go on and has like five different times where you can click here to register, click here to register.

59:52

So you can click, go on there and register and it is a free conference.

59:56

And so we're trying to get the place packed out to be able to come for that.

01:00:00

It's going to be good.

01:00:01

Wonderful.

01:00:02

And conferences are often very expensive.

01:00:06

So to hear you guys giving this information away for free and serving the body.

01:00:12

Free resources because it is a first love ministry event.

01:00:17

We will also be giving out a lot of free resources, free books on.

01:00:21

So it's definitely something that just members of different churches should come to.

01:00:27

Pastors will be there and it'll be a great gathering of multiple types of people.

01:00:34

Wonderful.

01:00:34

Well, yeah, well definitely if you're in the Baghdad area, in the Milton area, Pensacola area and you're interested, the website is? I will have to send it to you.

01:00:46

The website will be in the description.

01:00:49

I know if you Google first love ministries, it's one of the ones that pops up, but there's more than one that pops up.

01:00:55

So I want to make sure people get the right one.

01:00:57

I understand.

01:00:57

Well, we'll get that.

01:00:58

We'll get that in the description of the video.

01:01:01

And I mean, I'm interested in it.

01:01:02

I love the idea of the conference.

01:01:04

I've been, I told you before, I've been out to Milton a few times for conferences.

01:01:07

It's a little bit of a drive from here.

01:01:08

You made the drive today or yesterday, so, you know, it's a little bit of a, a little bit of a hike, but definitely worth it to, to get to be spending some time with God's people and learning about the word.

01:01:20

Well, Zach, I want to thank you again for being on the program today, sharing your church, sharing your family, sharing your wife and daughter here with us and coming in and spending time with me this morning.

01:01:32

I really appreciate it.

01:01:33

Thank you.

01:01:33

It was great.

01:01:34

And as always, I want to thank you all for being with us today on Conversations with a Calvinist.

01:01:39

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01:01:46

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01:01:52

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01:02:05

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01:02:11

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01:02:16

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01:02:23

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01:02:31

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01:02:34

May God bless you.