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Alright everybody, welcome back to the channel.
It is Friday, which means we have almost gotten through another week.
Thank God for that.
I gotta tell ya, I hope your week was very productive.
Mine was moderate.
There was a few days where I kinda got distracted and wasn't able to get as much done as I was hoping, so...
You know, we'll try it again next week, you know what I mean? We'll try it again next week and that's all we can do is move forward, so that's what we're gonna do.
But I did want to say thank you so much for everybody who's reached out to me.
A lot of people found the discussion, the very brief discussion we had on blasphemy laws in the last episode, they found it very helpful.
And I'm very glad that you did, because I'm not a newcomer to this.
I've thought quite a lot about blasphemy laws and things like that, and so I'm glad that you found it helpful.
You know, it's very important to revere the name of Christ and to honor the name of Christ.
Have you had this experience? Because I don't know, some of you guys maybe didn't come to Christ as an adult.
I did, and when I converted to Christ as an adult, I was living in New York City, I had a lot of degenerate friends and stuff like that.
And one thing I kind of noticed over time, as they realized that I wasn't just a fling kind of thing, I was taking it very seriously, I noticed they stopped cursing using Jesus' name around me, you know what I mean? And in fact, sometimes they would slip up and they'd say, you know, that kind of thing, and they would apologize to me.
I never told them to do this, it's just something that naturally happened, it was almost as if I was just a walking blasphemy law.
And they kind of watched their mouths around me a little bit.
And I have had experiences too, where I've, you know, I'm with someone, you know, and things like that, and I've just kind of asked them politely, you know, if you could not do that, that would be nice, you know, that kind of thing.
And people usually respect it.
I think that's a good thing, that people kind of feel the need to sort of not curse Christ's name or blaspheme Christ around you.
That's a good thing, and I think that that's very helpful to people, even unbelievers, that's helpful to unbelievers.
It's actually a good thing for unbelievers to be concerned about blaspheming Christ, and things like that.
There were certain jokes that people used to tell to me, and they stopped over time.
And there were certain things that people would talk about around me, and they stopped over time.
And I think that's a good thing, you know what I mean? And there's a role to play for the civil governing authority there.
Some people took exception with the fact that I would kind of relate the family unit and the father with his sons to the government.
And they said, I don't want government to be my daddy, you know, and things like that.
And, you know, a couple things about that.
Number one, I didn't come up with that example.
That was Owen's.
So I was responding to Owen's example in the family and saying how actually in the family, that isn't how it would work.
So if that's your reasoning or that's your example, it's a terrible example.
In fact, it shows you why the government should do it.
But I got to be honest with you, those of you who are reformed, you need to understand that there is an aspect of the government that does relate to the familial relationship, you know what I mean? The commandment to honor your father and mother applies to many circumstances, including our posture when it comes to the government.
Now, I know for Americans, that's like, you know, everyone's breaking out in hives here.
Because in some ways, we don't want the government to be daddy.
Like I don't want, like I tell my children what to eat, you know what I mean? Like I give them certain foods and I refrain from giving them certain foods and things like that.
I control my children's diet.
I don't want the government controlling my diet per se, but there are aspects of the honor that's due to your father and mother that carry over, that apply to the honor that's due to the civil governing authorities.
And so, you know, those of you who are reformed, you ought to read your reform documents to make sure that you're not, you know, confused on that point.
There is an aspect of the government that is similar in some way.
So I think Owen is actually right to bring that up, although he's wrong in what he thinks it means.
You know what I mean? So anyway, we're going to get much more into that, you know what I mean? This is just off-the-cuff comments here.
And what I'm planning on doing with the blasphemy videos that we do is I'm planning on actually writing a script.
And I know that's crazy and I know you might not like that, but A.D.
Robles might have to write a script for that one.
Because I want it to be short enough to consume, but chock full of information.
That's what I'm hoping.
So anyway, let's get into this, because I'm really enjoying this.
I thought I was going to really not enjoy this, but I am enjoying this.
So let's get into it.
Another clarification, too, within this Christian nationalism debate is I think a lot of people are trying to lump post-millennials into Christian nationalism.
So if you are a post-mill, you're automatically some form of Christian nationalist.
How would you clarify that a little bit more and maybe push back against that? A lot of post-mill guys are Christian nationalists, but not all post-mill guys are.
So that's what I would say very quickly.
There's different streams of Christian nationalism and there's different streams of post-millennialism.
There are some like Jonathan Edwards or James White at the school at which I teach.
We're faculty members together.
And he would argue from his post-millennial convictions that you preach the gospel and that's how the world becomes Christianized.
And I don't hold that view.
I would argue against that view, but that's Jonathan Edwards' view, and Jonathan Edwards is my favorite theologian.
So that's a viable view.
But the argument that we are going to make the world more Christian by law primarily is a different stream from that.
And that's one that I would have concerns about as well.
I think there is still a case you can make for theonomy, for example.
But that is not what I would find in Scripture myself.
But there are some in the post-millennial crowd who believe that the world is going to be Christianized, yes, by the gospel, but also by getting laws on the books.
That's how you kind of prepare the world to be Christian.
And I just find no grounding for that in the New Covenant.
I want good law, but I don't think that's going to make the world Christian.
The world becomes Christian when Jesus comes back and makes it His footstool.
That's when all the sad things come untrue.
That's when evil is undone.
That is when Jesus reigns visibly on earth with His people.
We yearn for that.
I fear many people are being pulled away from New Testament imperatives, including to simply have faith and to suffer for Christ because the times are so dark in Canada, America, and beyond that people are almost like the trusting Christ by faith thing isn't getting it done.
We need something stronger.
We've got to take this back.
You don't understand.
It's spiraling out of control.
I don't demean those people.
It does feel that way.
But that doesn't mean we shift, I would argue, out of the mission of the church.
This lady looks so uncomfortable.
I've been thinking that the entire time.
We've been watching this for 15 minutes now.
She just looks so uncomfortable.
I don't know if she is or not, but she looks like it.
She's just almost like, get me out of here.
Anyway, here's Owen with his negative approach to things.
For a gospel-centered guy, allegedly, the gospel is not how we make the world more Christian.
That's what he said there.
It's pretty weird.
I've never heard that one before.
I'm not going to get into the post-millennialism debate.
You guys know I'm post-millennial, but I don't make a big deal about it.
In fact, maybe some of you guys don't even know that I'm post-millennial.
You've never met a post-millennial like me where I don't ever talk about it.
You've never debated someone like me before.
I'm post-millennial, but I haven't told anyone about it in a long time.
That's one of those things that when someone's post-mill, you know in the first five minutes of meeting them because they have to tell you.
But I'm not going to get dragged into that debate because it really makes no difference.
It doesn't make any difference because faithful Christianity played out in every sphere of life, whether you have an optimistic view, whether you're pessimistic, whether you're a mixer, you're a millennial, you're post-millennial, you're pre-millennial, whatever it is, faithful Christianity in your spheres of authority, and it applies everywhere, should result in the same thing.
You know what I mean? And that's the thing.
Like, you know, Christian nationalists, there's all kinds of different eschatological views within Christian nationalism, and it really makes no difference whether you think that, you know, you get my point.
So I'm not going to get into it.
It's good stuff.
I just wanted to comment on her.
She just looks very, you know.
...to make disciples and now try to Christianize society.
I do not think we are called to do that.
I think we are called to do the harder thing.
Sorry, I'm going on here.
We do the harder thing of having faith, suffering for Christ, standing for righteousness.
And honestly, my sister and her husband gave us a great example of that in the last few years by God's grace.
Right, but there's so much packed into this.
He's just such a weasel.
Like, either the harder thing is to stand for Christ.
Well, what does that mean, though? That's what we're talking about.
Christian nationalists are talking about standing for Christ.
Like, what do you mean, stand for Christ? Well, what I mean is, don't do anything.
That's not what he means, but like, the point is, like, stop using these platitudes.
We all agree with the platitudes, but there's content there.
There's content there.
Ay yi yi.
A few of the other questions we have.
What if, just call me crazy.
What if, what if we could live by faith and seek to pursue a situation where this poor woman's husband was never arrested in the first place? Because the government understood that the church was a vital part of culture.
It was a vital part of the nation.
And so, come what may, like, that's a real stand.
Come what may, you know, COVID, whatever.
We're going to have church.
The churches will be open.
What if we created a situation where the government specifically recognized the church of Jesus Christ as a necessary, vital organization that even in the midst of a pandemic would stay open? Wouldn't they call those things, like, necessary or workers or something? Because they made a distinction.
Like, some businesses were necessary, some businesses weren't.
Like, why would that be bad all of a sudden? Why is the only way to Christian faithfulness just to suffer it out? So we don't even try to have a situation where her husband doesn't get arrested.
Right? Where the government recognizes the church as a vital institution that must be allowed to meet even in the midst of darkness, even in the midst of pestilence or even fake diseases.
Like, whatever.
Like, why would that be unfaithful? You're not really living by faith if you're doing that.
Why? Why? Doesn't this need to be challenged? It's like it doesn't necess—it doesn't—I think a lot of the anti-Christian nationalist sentiment is just due to a lack of imagination.
Right? Like, what if? What if we could create a situation in our country where that would never happen? Because we all recognize that the church is vital.
The church of Christ is a vital institution.
Jesus Christ is Lord, and we are going to worship him and honor him as Lord.
And no matter what is happening, we're not going to shut down the church because Christ, the worship of the Lord, that's something that this nation prioritizes.
Why would that be unfaithful? Why would that be less faithful? Like, I don't know what he would call it, but he obviously seems to think that the most faithful thing is that they're persecuted but they endure.
Yes, that's great.
If you're going to have to be persecuted, sure, you need to endure.
And that's wonderful, and that's a beautiful example of faith.
But that's not the only thing that could happen.
I just don't understand.
It's a lack of imagination in many situations.
This is not going to be the last time that you talk about Christian nationalism.
Can it be? Can it be the last time? You're already in it.
You are Maximus, the gladiator within the Colosseum, fighting against the Christian nationalists.
And now you're going to get hammered because of that comment.
Is there any further clarity you would like to provide based off what you have said on stage here at G3? I said what I meant to say.
I didn't misspeak.
I quoted Stephen Wolfe at length.
I tried to be very fair to him in my pre-conference message.
That's where I really engaged him.
Yeah, you really need to try again a little harder.
It reminds me of Zach Wilson in his most recent press conference.
Yeah, I'm a Jets fan, you know.
Zach Wilson in his most recent press conference.
This guy's the worst quarterback that I've ever seen.
I haven't been a football fan for that long.
He's the worst quarterback in the league.
I would argue he's probably the worst backup quarterback in the league.
So there's like 60 quarterbacks in the league that are better than him.
He's awful.
And he says in his last press conference, I promise I'm trying to get better.
You need to try a little harder, my friend.
I'm sure you tried, Zach.
I'm sure you tried.
But we're going to need you to go ahead and try a little harder.
Owen Strawn is the Zach Wilson of theology.
I'm sorry, Zach.
That's messed up.
I'm sorry, Zach, man.
I shouldn't have said that.
I waited months to engage him.
I wanted to track him and see his thought and see where he was coming from and was I misreading him.
It took a long time to do that and a lot of prep to do that.
Yeah, Zach has been in the league three years.
You know? Zach has been watching the film, watching the tape, watching other quarterbacks.
Zach Wilson, he never looked happier than when he was second string.
When Aaron Rodgers was here, I feel like Zach had a glow about him and he had a new restored confidence.
Zach was very happy being backup quarterback.
Now that he's playing.
No, I mean, I have major concerns about Steven Wolf and the book, The Case for Christian Nationalism.
I don't know where his heart is.
I want good for him.
I want him to know the liberation of the gospel and to not be making new laws that are binding people.
I want him to know the mission of the church.
It is not the case that if you're a preacher or a theologian, then you go by the Bible.
But if you're in political philosophy or politics, you leave the Bible behind and you just kind of pull from history and philosophy and a little bit of scripture.
No.
See, it's wrong from the start.
His work has the wrong foundation.
The foundation of anything.
If that's the case, Owen, I dare you.
I dare you, Owen, to tell me where in the scripture you got your belief in the U.S.
Constitution.
Again, I'm pro-constitution.
Where in the scripture do you get this idea that it should be a fundamental human right to be able to blaspheme Christ? Because that's how you interpret the Bill of Rights.
That you must be allowed to blaspheme Christ.
Where in the scripture do you get that idea, Owen? You're posturing as if you're this biblical stalwart.
Everything you believe comes from the Bible.
Show me where that comes from in the Bible.
You must be allowed to blaspheme Christ.
It's not there! Obviously! It's not there! It's just like...
There's so many things you could say to that.
I just told someone this recently.
I'm a Christian nationalist.
I'm more on the theonomic strain of it.
I'm on the theonomic strain of it.
That's kind of where I'm at.
Just full disclosure.
But I'm not like a deranged theonomist.
I understand that there is some contextualization that needs to get done when it comes to the law of God.
But I'm just curious.
It's like...
Anyway.
I'm a mechanic.
The scripture is good for morality and for the faith, but as a mechanic I guess you have to look at the scripture too for how to take apart or a carburetor.
I think what we do has to be the word of God.
Now some disciplines are going to engage with that more than others directly.
If you're a math prof, you're not citing 50 bible verses a class, for example.
So let that be said.
But on the issue of what is the state and what is a nation and what is a citizen and what is liberty, these are all things that are touched on by the scripture.
They are touched on! And that's why Stephen touches on the reformed tradition! Because the reformers, they derive their beliefs from the scripture.
And you admitted he touches the scripture too.
They are touched on.
But Owen, what's the form of government when it comes to the scripture? What does it command? How should we organize ourselves? There's stuff in there about it.
But I want to know, what does it say about democracy, for example? What does it say about free speech and things of this nature? Free religion.
Owen, I believe in free religion! What are you talking about? It's so hypocritical.
And I think everybody can see it.
Everyone that's not super deranged about this can see that it's just, he's not playing fair.
He can draw from unscriptural things when it comes to his belief in the freedom of religion and things like that.
But Stephen can't to argue against it.
But the thing is, it's all irrelevant anyway because the whole point is that this is the reformed tradition, the tradition, Owen, that you would claim to revere.
We should be able to agree on these things.
We'll quote Calvin.
And we'll say Calvin said this.
If you go to the citation of Calvin, you're going to get his biblical warrant and things like that.
This is the whole point.
It's like we cite these people that if you're going to be consistent, Owen, you're calling Stephen a heretic here.
He doesn't understand the gospel.
He said something kind of similar to me too, Owen, if we're being honest.
You do these things that if you were going to be consistent, you'd have to cast Calvin into the lake of fire as well.
And this is why we have a problem here.
Because you're just not using equal balances.
You want to use one standard in one situation, a different standard in your situation, and you're not playing what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
You're being a hypocrite.
You're being tribal.
You're not holding yourself to the same standard you're holding Owen to.
Or, Owen.
Stephen to.
You're just not.
A lot of people pointed out how he talks about the Constitution.
I'm not going to nitpick here too much, but I do agree with a lot of these comments where he says things like, there was one comment in particular, I think it was Nicholas.
Nicholas, I appreciated this comment.
This was you.
You said, the way he says, I believe in the Constitution, it's almost in religious language.
It's a matter of faith to him.
I believe in the Constitution.
I agree.
He slips into religious language quite often when he talks about these modern views of the Constitution is really what it comes down to.
It's not really even the Constitution.
It's like the Constitution since 1960.
It's very interesting how you see, they almost slip into, just naturally, this is very religious.
This is a point of faith for them.
They would never admit it, but the way they talk about it, it's as if it is.
...in the Scripture, and so I have real concerns about this system, but my prayer, this is the only thing I would add.
I tried to articulate it earlier, but these aren't my enemies.
Stephen Wolfe isn't my enemy.
Christian nationalists aren't my enemies.
I want their good, but the only foundation, the only sure foundation in life is the Word of God and what it teaches, sound doctrine, and so I pray.
I don't know where they are.
Some of them, I fear, need conversion.
Some of them may need to just grow in the faith.
My prayer is that this whole conversation will yield those good effects, and that's why, Johnny, I'm not engaging it a lot on Twitter.
I'll say my piece here and there.
I'm glad you're saying that, because people are wondering like, hey, are you going to sit down with these people to have a conversation? This is going to be a great question here.
I'm going to back up just a little bit, because John is about to ask a very good question, and so I can't continue right now.
I've got to finish up my day, but yeah, you know, again, John Root here is doing a great job with this interview, because he's asking...
He's not pushing back, obviously.
That's not what his role is.
He's just here interviewing the teacher, essentially.
Owen is teaching and pontificating, but he's asking good questions, right? He's not letting Owen just kind of go wherever Owen wants to go.
He's asking important questions that people like me would ask if I was in the position, so again, John, hats off to you, man.
Hats off to you, and I hope there's no hard feelings with the joke I told.
I don't take it back, obviously.
And if you want to call me a...
That's the thing, he said, imagine if the situation reversed, and I called him a hoodrat, you know what I mean? If you called me a hoodrat, I would've...
I mean, I don't think I'd look like a hoodrat, but if I was wearing something hoodrat-ish, is my hat...
Is this just a 5950? I don't know.
But if you did, it would be okay.
You wouldn't have to repent, or apologize, or anything like that.
It's totally fine, you know? So I hope that, you know, we can...
I hope we can be friends.
Let's put it that way.
But this is a good question that he's going to ask.
I cannot wait to get to it.
I'm kind of sad that I don't have the time to do it right now.
By the way, before we finish this interview, this video, I am going to be talking to a real-life kinnest next week.
That's right, a real-life kinnest.
The people that you have been told are a threat to the Church of Jesus Christ.
I'm going to be speaking to a real-life kinnest next week.
It's not going to be recorded or anything.
It's just an informational type thing.
But if you have specific questions for this kinnest, and I mean, like, I'm not calling him a kinnest.
I mean, he's calling himself a kinnest.
Seems like a good guy.
I just kind of perused his Twitter feed.
Seems like an interesting character.
So, if you have any specific questions, shoot them over my way.
I'll...
You see what I can ask him and things like that.
You know, and...
Oh, by the way, I was fully disclosure.
I said, hey, you know, I'm a Puerto Rican married to a white girl.
So he knows that, and he didn't rebuke me.
So at least, hey, there's a feather in his cap.
At least not yet.
In any case, I'm just messing around.
I hope you found this video helpful.
God bless.