Cultish: Is Contemplative Prayer New Age? w/ Marcia Montenegro, Pt. 2

All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co-hosts here. I am joined back by my trusted Super sleuth up in your brand-new super secret headquarters over in Utah.

How you doing, man? How'd you enjoy part one of our conversation with our favorite Kraken? Ah, man, I always love having the Kraken on.

Well what I'm trying to do right now is I'm trying to not think right? I'm thinking maybe the best episode of cultish ever would be the silent.

Episode to just be silent the whole whole hour. It'll be a contemplated the cultist contemplate of our. Actually, well, I would contemplate pun intended that there would probably be a lot of people to be like what's going on.

I think they forgot to upload their audio. So. That being said we are joined by Marcia Montenegro. I think I'm just gonna play the clip again. We usually only play in part one, but you are a favorite Kraken.

So here we go.

Release the Kraken.

Contemplative Prayer, Syncretism, and New Age Overlap

All right, so we have you back we were this is a part two of our conversation. We're talking about contemplative prayer and I think we did a hope good giving people a general overview of what's going on.

This is another example of really Syncretism, this is New Age ideas. Mystical thinking that's sort of trying to be syncretistic blending itself in Cloaking itself in Christian terms. It is very much the case.

Marcia. Was there anything you want to elaborate on from our from what you we talked about in the first part of our series or What are your what are your kind of your initial thoughts from where we ended off?

Okay, I do want to make a point that I don't normally say well contemplate prayers New Age. I say that it overlaps with the New Age and there's some influences there. Because of the syncretism and the mysticism which overlap with kind of New Age thinking so it's kind of complicated because I don't want to label things Unfairly or in a misleading way.

But I mean I it there I did talk about the overlap with the New Age and the mystical stuff that that does overlap very well and That the methods certainly are not biblical. They're mystical.

I.

Think that would it be okay here to mention there be still DVD. Oh, yeah. Yeah, let's mention that. Okay, because I talked a bit about I think we mentioned Richard Foster and Dallas Willard. And the spiritual formation programs.

Dallas Ward actually was the one who put spiritual formation programs into many seminaries and and I first heard about that from actually a Person who was in one of the programs and was very disturbed by one of the assignments.

He had what she did not think was biblical and he wrote me about it. But you know that that has been a lot of people have complained about those programs. Well, Richard Foster and Dallas Willard who knew Thomas Keating and How close an association they had I don't know but when Thomas Keating was alive They did have a link from their renovare website to Thomas Keating's Contemplative.

I think it's called contemplative outreach. I think this was the name of his website and I think it's still up. But of course, he's not around so they they had some kind of link to him and They did a DVD called be still.

Which came out around 2005 2006. I could be a year off there. Maybe to not as late as 2007 and This DVD basically Introduced the concepts of contemplative prayer or sort of paving a way for it to the Evangelical Church.

That's what it was and they had various people on here. It wasn't Dallas Willard and Richard Foster talking. In fact, I'm not even sure they talk at all on the DVD. They produced it. They have other people on there.

They have Beth Moore on there. Who makes some very emotional statements typical of her? Priscilla Shire makes some statements at that time. She was not that well-known. She's much more well-known now.

But she is on board the contemplative train very much. So and and Then we had there was a professor at a Baptist seminary. I was very shocked by some of the things he said on the DVD. He talked about his favorite saint was Francis DeSalle's.

Because he'd seen a statue of Francis DeSalle's in the corner of a church and somehow this Had made an impression on him and Francis DeSalle's became his favorite saint. Well, I looked up Francis DeSalle's because I didn't really know anything about him and apparently he was one of the Catholic priests who led the counter-reformation.

So I thought it was kind of odd for a Baptist. Someone who teaches at a Baptist seminary to Find Francis DeSalle's sort of a heroic figure. I just found it everything about that DVD was so off. So I wrote an article on it if people want to read it.

But I think that DVD had an incredible influence and helped also paves the way this stuff was already beginning to come in. There's lots of tentacles of the contemplative prayer movement such as something called listening prayer.

So there's listening prayer, which is very much like contemplative prayer. Where some of the same practices are used? Yeah, and and you know, there's just these kind of I How do you say that word? I read orations.

Am I saying that right? I iterations. I think yeah, is that the word? I believe so it's the word coming to me, but You know, I think it's kind of stance it means variations of the same thing May be labeled differently.

So it's not always point people aren't going to say well, let's do Contemplative practices so they may say something else, you know, let's just let's just let's just get quiet and Let's listen for God or Oh another.

Oh you asked me earlier about some of the phrases that you hear. Yeah, big big biggie. I didn't mention is the still small voice From first King's first Kings 19. Yeah, I think That's the biggie that is used.

I heard Thomas Keating. I use it in his talk when I heard him I just read it recently In a post I was reviewing for this program it was either about John Mark Comer or Peter Scissor who two of the people who are Big on board on contemplative stuff and push it.

They also both endorse the enneagram. So there's another example of the enneagram contemplative connection. Yeah.

So.

This what was I just saying before that? Oh, yeah, there's still small voice. That is so misused. So I write about that in my article on Thomas Keating on his lecture. Okay. Well, why don't we do this night?

And that's a good I appreciate you giving all the insight on that. I'm gonna give just a quick example I pulled up this is just I looked up Earlier a while back the just an example of someone this is from a website giving instruction on how to do contemplative prayer.

Just so people can kind of give an example of what that actually looks like. This is from the website. There's some basic instructions and then Marcia We will of course will let you give your thoughts in this so from this website.

It says this is some basic instructions. This is a centering instructions for a centering prayer or mantra. First step says choose a prayer word or phrase that is simple that may be prayed over and over step to.

Relax and focus your breathing allow the breath to come naturally neither fast nor slow rest in the presence of God and. In an attitude of love and emptying yourself of everything else that is worrying or otherwise unhelpful.

The prayer word or phrase will help you do this. Begin to then begin to say a prayer or phrase repeatedly and gently. Then if any distractions or memories keep returning as they will. Gently put them aside with the prayer word.

Then the last step it says be aware of God's presence and love then it goes on to say here are some possible prayer words or phrases and they quote Galatians 5 22 through 24 talking about the fruit of the Spirit which is love joy.

Peace patience kindness goodness trustfulness gentleness and self-control and. But it's saying specifically to choose any of those words Within contemplative prayer and so then they give an example a title for God Jesus Jesus Lord God God of love spirit of truth or a prayer may be formed from different phrases.

Come Lord Jesus or Jesus Christ or God my father or Holy Spirit and then it's just choosing all this has touched my heart. Hear me be with me be my guide help me give me faith. But it's kind of giving all these words to say over and over and over again.

So just give us some examples of why. Why is this problematic or is this something that you know, you can maybe some Christians say I can justify this. I mean, maybe it's good to try and set your main thing at Colossians, right?

Sets your minds on earthly things not on things on heavenly things non things below, right? How do we unpack this? What are your initial thoughts Marcia?

Okay. Um, first of all This is these are techniques. They're teaching. So it's a technique that is supposed to produce a certain result and that is not what Christianity is about. Christianity and Christianity what happens flows from our relationship with God and our our Attitude towards him and our receptivity to his will that then then the Christian life flows from that.

So it doesn't flow from techniques. Techniques may seem to work Superficially or in the short term, but they won't hold out in the long term or they may become, you know. They may actually grow into something worse.

Where you're relying on the techniques and your relationship with God thins out as a result. So this is it. These are techniques secondly. There's no support biblically for the need to repeat. Certain words or phrases even if they're from the Bible that doesn't mean repeating them has any kind of good effect.

Now they're saying to do this because it keeps you focused and keeps you from being distracted. That's exact. That's exactly what partly what a mantra is for in Hinduism. It's it goes beyond that in Hinduism.

The mantra actually is supposed to have this Kind of supernatural spiritual effect, but part of it is to is a mind thing. It's a mind manipulation and If you are really doing that you could actually in my opinion you could hypnotize yourself.

Because you're repeating and you're trying not to think. So and you're sitting there very still and they tell you about how to breathe which is very typical, too. And obviously they want you to disengage from everything.

Because the assumption is unless you disengage from everything. You just aren't going to have that really meaningful deep communion with God, which is a false idea. We can have I can have communion with God when I'm having a conversation with somebody.

I have prayed sometimes during a conversation somebody when I felt the need for the prayer. I can pray, you know when I'm walking. To get a drink of water I can pray you don't have to have this utter.

Focus and disengagement with the world. That's an Eastern Eastern religion and New Age concept. So they have an assumption there that's completely false. That is the basis for all these instructions and it gives the impression to people that yeah.

If I'm not, you know, if I'm distracted or I'm thinking of other things or I'm worried, you know, I'm not really going to have. That you know connection with God, you know. And now I know it's true if you're really worried about something and it's just really bothering you then it's hard to focus.

But you know, then you sit there maybe read some scripture ask God to help you to focus, you know. You just start praying. I mean I find when I start praying the things I was worrying about. Tend to go away because I'm focused on what I'm saying to God and what I want to what I want to say to him.

And what I want to ask help for yeah, so, you know. Then the other things kind of fall away at least during the prayer and I usually feel a lot better after the prayer. Or after reading scripture scripture will also do the same thing it will you know, whatever it is.

It's bothering me or I'm anxious about. Reading God's Word helps me either deal with it or helps me set it aside. So there that's what God's Word is living and active. Hebrews 4 12. Contemplative prayer techniques are not living and active.

They're dead techniques from men.

Contemplative Prayer, Gnosticism, and Subjective Experience

Yeah, what are your thoughts Andrew.

Yeah, I have a I have a question for Marsha so thinking about like the being what they would say is being still or this unthinking or this Unverbal type of prayer in order to avoid yourself from any form of material Let's say What is the word I'm looking for.

Distortion in between your connection with God and yourself and contemplated prayer? Is there a relationship for them between like let's say like almost a pure Gnosticism in a sense that there's this Spiritual self, but then there's also this one self that's tainted with material Reality.

In order to find the true self you must rid yourself of this material Miss in order to have this oneness with God. Is there this type of thinking within the contemplated contemplated prayer circles?

Yes, I I think there I don't know if they consciously are aware of that or think that but I think it definitely is there. It certainly implies what you just said that there's something that has to be set aside.

From the mind from the material world from the worries. Otherwise, it's going to get in the way of this connection with God and you won't have that deep connection or real connection. Or you won't have the real experience of God's presence and they often frame things.

They will address people who they know are. Have anxieties are worried or feeling that they're not spending enough time with God and they'll say well, are you feeling anxious? Do you feel like you really don't have time to pray?

Do you feel hurried when you pray? Do you forget to pray and they bring up all these problems that are very real for people and then they say well. Here's the answer. See you can do this and then you're going to feel this deep powerful presence of God.

And so people hearing this think well, and then they're using scripture and they think well, this is you know. Most people I would think think it's biblical, especially if these are christians telling them to do this.

And they think well see that's what I need to do. That's exactly what this be still dvd does by the way. It sets up this this thing shows people hurrying around this mother rushing her children to school this man rushing off to work.

Catching the bus and then and all this harried people. And then it shows these peaceful lakes out in the country. And it says so you really need you know this you need this rest from all this hurry and worry.

And here's how you you know, basically they're saying here's how you get it you do this.

So.

Yeah, it is sort of gnostic in the sense that it's very private. It's very subjective. Um, it's this inner kind of thing and it's experience oriented.

Yeah, so so just for me to try to think like level-headedly as well. Uh, because i'm sure you'll be able to give me lots of information here.

Uh.

It seems like a reverse form of like divination and occultism because like when I think of divination and occultism I think of using actual objects right in the material world in order to manipulate this physical world.

Uh with the mechanisms from the spiritual right to get what you want like that's what the sorcery is about. Um, how how is this different than divination. Because to me it sounds almost exactly the same but you're not using physical tools.

Maybe you do in lectio divina. You might use physical tools. Uh, you might have a physical object in front of you or like a mat that you sit on when you're using that, uh specific, uh. Ritual that you do but um is what is the difference essentially between contemplative prayer and divination?

Is there a difference? How can we think level-headedly about that?

Well.

I don't know if i've ever thought about comparing them. So this is a new one. Um, you know, well divination is seeking information. Um through reading hidden meanings or through uh supernatural means um, that's really what divination is.

This is kind of like seeking an experience with god through techniques. Um, I don't know. I don't know that they would use the word supernatural. I'm not sure.

Um.

You're using these techniques or methods for a connection with god, so In a very broad sense if you say divination is getting a connection um with some spiritual source to get information. And and contemplative prayer and contemplative practices are getting a connection with god through a technique.

It's there's kind of a similarity there. I mean, I wouldn't say it's the same thing, but there is kind of a similarity. And both are certainly of course divination is condemned by god. And I think using techniques to try to have an experience.

It's kind of like you're trying to Summon god. It's like you're. You're calling up god. You're conjuring god. Through these techniques and some oh some of the other variations. I mentioned listening prayer.

There's another one now that's getting more popular because people are asking me about it is imaginative prayer and also imaginative scripture reading. Where they read scripture and then you're supposed to see yourself there, which is okay.

I mean, I don't have a problem really because I tend to do that anyway, if i'm You know hearing a passage of scripture and jesus is. You know having a conversation or healing someone, you know I tend to see it and I might even see it as though i'm there just because i'm imaginative but then you're supposed to see yourself there and then maybe At jesus looks at you and then you're supposed to think Okay, jesus is going to say something to me.

What does he say to me? Well I'm, sorry, but you aren't really there and jesus is not really saying anything to you. You can imagine him saying something but that is just your imagination. But they actually are teaching this now.

And somebody just messaged me a few days ago and said what do you think of this? I was in the class at church and we were told to do this and was this exercise of putting himself in the story and supposed to see jesus and then jesus was supposed to say something to him and he was supposed to Write down what jesus said to him or something and i'm like, wait a minute.

Wait a minute. This is not real. Um, so that's imaginative prayer. That's kind of an extension or maybe fallout from this contemplative prayer I think it already may maybe existed before I don't know but it's becoming a little more well known now.

So.

Quite i'm actually i'm glad you asked that question because it's reminding me that I did I have said in the past These techniques are pagan because it is like conjuring up god. You know, i'm going to really have this connection with god.

Now if I do a abc I will have a deeper connection and I will have an experience of the presence.

Contemplative Prayer, Elitism, and Spiritual Superiority

Yeah, i've got right and like I mean even Like not looking like worst case scenario, at least you might have a situation where there's kind of like a have and have nots like hey, I have sort of a special deeper connection with god because i'm doing this contemplative practice versus someone who's just Following the lord's prayer.

Do you think that's that's a dangerous byproduct of that?

Yes, elitism. It's elitism and it does produce elitism. It definitely does and people You know seem to think even if they don't say it outright that this is the more superior and deeper way. To connect with god and to experience god it that that is definitely there and I I call that an elitism.

Which you also find in the new age and so. That's another dangerous part of it because and some people may actually feel they should be doing that. You know, it's like well, gee, you know, I just go to bed and I say this prayer or I say the lord's prayer.

You know sometimes and you know, maybe I need to be doing more. They gives people the idea. They need to be doing more, you know reading the bible and doing normative prayer. Is not sufficient it. That message is definitely there because that's how they sell it.

That's how it's it's marketed.

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Back to the show. Yeah, no, no great point. Great point. Why don't we do this? Let's go ahead and just jump into maybe give some examples of how this has infiltrated the church. So when we think for example, you know.

We bring up names like richard rohrer or other people that are more on the side of a lot more progressive Evangelicalism so you think of an organization like focus on the family, right? What comes to mind when you first think of them you're thinking of?

Very really traditional conservatism like focus on the family a very conservative Patriarchal view of the world. Uh, definitely if you look at james dobson. He's always has typically affiliated himself with Republican presidents the whole time when he's done his ministry.

I think even growing up as a kid I remember being influenced by a lot by focus on the family like adventures in odyssey. Was a big fan of the show back in the day as a kid. Uh, there's a magazine by them actually called breakaway, which is kind of like the magazine for boys.

And then yeah, i've seen that right and then I think they had a magazine called brio. Which is kind of like it was the alternative to 17 magazine so they're they're a lot they have their arms in a lot of different places, but there was a Article that was written called questions and concerns about contemplative prayer.

Can you tell us marcia real quickly because we're going to talk about the article. How did this article come about?

Um, I think it came about from a reader or listener who wrote them. A listener, I guess asking them Uh for feedback on the contemplative prayer. I can't remember exactly how the question was framed. And they they said yes, we want to address that and then they basically wrote kind of an article laying out.

Why they think this is a good method and why it's okay. And then you had written a response to it a letter as well. I wrote a response to their yeah to their answer to that question.

Um.

Pointing out the flaws in their defense of contemplative prayer and the misuse. Of many scriptures and biblical figures they referred to.

Was there any communication between uh you and focusing the family? Did you ever reach out to them or this is just something that you just sort of no.

No.

It was a it was a public article and I made a public response to it. Exactly. I usually don't have time to try to contact people that i'm going to critique. I have done it a few times and it's never produced anything good.

It's either produced nothing or it hasn't produced anything of value and. And i've tell people I can't be an activist. And a researcher and a writer and do my ministry. I have there's certain roles I just can't I don't have time for so I I put the information out there.

Then if you want to contact the person or organization, especially if it's somebody that you like or you followed.

Um.

You know. Or benefited from and you're concerned then you reach out to them, you know. Because i'm not even a big fan of focus on the family. So, you know. So that that would. Um, and I know they have gotten a little more progressive lately, but I was still pretty shocked.

At their defense of this not so much that they were defending it but the way they defended it.

Okay. All right. Well, let's just do this. I'm going to read just a little bit from the article and then and okay thoughts as well. You can jump in here and you can just uh, kind of give your own thoughts.

It's been a while since you wrote the article and i'm sure a lot of this stuff will come to mind. So this is at the very beginning Of the article this is focused on the family asking questions about whether or not a contemplated prayer is new age.

Uh, so this is at the very beginning of the article. It says the fact that an idea looks or sounds like quote new age mysticism at first glance Doesn't necessarily prove that it is quote new age mysticism.

You have to dig deeper to get to the heart of the matter. This is a case where the spiritual danger of jumping to unwarranted conclusions is very present in real indeed. Let's take a look at the scriptural evidence.

It was not the wind. It was not in the wind the earthquake or the fire that the lord spoke to elijah it was in the still small voice of intimate personal communications first kings 1912. David highlights the value of this type of spiritual discipline in psalm 4 4 when he writes meditate within Your heart on your bed and be still.

And another psalmist similarly represents the lord as exhorting his people. Be still and know that I am god you mentioned that in the part. In part one a little bit go ahead and unpack this for us. This is just a great example of a really a lot of people's thinking in regards to a prayer I mean a practice like contemplated prayer.

What are your thoughts on that marcia?

Yeah, well, of course they're misusing. Be still. Which I had mentioned before actually is more about it's more a rebuke or reprimand from god. To stop striving to stop to recognize he is in charge. Uh israel's enemies are going to be dealt with.

Israel needs to trust him. That's kind of the very short Nutshell message of psalm 46 and it's not about prayer meditation or sitting still To hear god or experience god. So that's a complete misuse the david part.

Also does not that's not about a meditative Technique, you know in david. Can you read the part that they quoted from david again?

Uh.

The david part where it's on four four. Where he says meditate in your it says meditate within your heart on your bed and be still.

Okay, so I would want to look that up in different versions and then I would want to look at a lexicon because I know that a lot of times in the old testament Heart means the whole person. It means you're you're um.

It means the totality of you. It's you it's your mind. It's your will and it's your emotions. Uh, so it's you so meditate on your heart.

Um.

I would and I also want to see the rest of the psalm too because that you have to look at the context. And I probably looked at it and of course like I like you said, I wrote that what. Maybe uh, Two or three years ago.

I'm not sure and so I don't remember everything but. Usually when david's talking about that it's like he's focusing on the lord and he's. He's turning to the lord to trust him. Either to because he's seeking an answer.

He's seeking guidance. And he's trusting him. It's not a technique. This is about this is more about an attitude. It's an attitude towards the lord. Andrew that's what I'm saying without looking at the rest of the okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, um some of my thoughts. Uh, I think I think it they show a little bit more of where their positions at a little bit later in the article. But I would have to agree, uh with psalm 440. You'd have to look at the language.

I was looking it up on logos and uh. It does there's other words for instead of meditate also ponder but um at the same time. We got to look at the the ancient language see what is going on here. Look at the context, but there's a difference between context and using proof texts, right?

Because I think what we're seeing here if you read the article a little bit further is Actually where they get themselves in quite the conundrum with contemplated prayer because if you look at further in the article.

It states listen i'll read it and i'll explain why. I say there's a conundrum. It says it's even possible to trace the strain of spirituality to the apostles themselves. Peter, for example saw visions on the roof of the house of simon the tanner acts 10 9 through 16.

Paul speaks of having been caught up to the third heaven where he heard inexpressible words. Which is not lawful for a man to utter second corinthians 12 2 3 4. Then there's john who's encounter with the risen christ while in the spirit of the lord's day gave us the book of revelation.

Now, how do they get themselves in a conundrum here? Does contemplative prayer give you the ability to now? Have canon have scripture from god that must be recorded that all men. Should they're they're not only permitted, right?

But commanded and exhorted to read hear and understand the scriptures question six from catechism, right? Like that's what if you're going in contemplative prayer and these same things are occurring for you.

It must be written down and I must look at it as the revelation. From god, I think they shoot themselves in the foot a little bit. Referring to contemplative prayer and saying well, that's what happens with the apostles.

Well, if that's happening with you, then this must be scripture. I would I wouldn't be able to see it any other way.

Right. I think that's a good point. And also those three examples you gave are of course not contemplative prayer. There there's something that god did. God gave peter the vision on the rooftop, right?

God revealed those the the revelation the book of revelation to john and and gave him those visions to write down. And told him to write him down. And though I forgot the third example there was the rooftop john there was one more.

And.

Anyway, all of those one that was the other point I wanted to make so i'm glad you said that. In contemplative prayer you're doing something. That's why I called it a pagan technique. You're doing something to bring something about uh supposedly.

Whereas in those examples god and in the bible god initiates everything. If someone has a vision it's because god gives that person a vision. If you know, he tell it's just taking uh, paul up to the third heaven.

That was the other example, right? Well, god did that paul didn't sit down and and do some kind of Meditation to get out of out of his mind or whatever you want. However, you want and and paul even says he doesn't know if he was in the body or out of the body.

So we don't even really know what happened. Was it a vision or did he actually go there or did god just give him a vision? We don't know god doesn't tell us and furthermore god told paul not to tell anybody.

And you know told him this was to humble him. Yeah, so, you know, this is not. And and none of those examples Have anything to do with contemplative prayer. That is that is the really almost funny part.

They give those as a defense. Seemingly for contemplative prayer and none of those were the result of any kind of prayer or have anything to do with contemplative prayer.

Hmm.

Yeah, so I really was floored when I read that. I remember reading that and I was like, where did they get this? What are they talking about? It's like they were really reaching. It's like they were really reaching.

Yeah, you talked in uh marcia the earth for episode one kind of talking about the history uh behind of of how even ancient Contemplative prayer and how it was syncretistic back then. So later in the article it says On the basis of this talking about um, you know using those proof texts specifically and then they add On they say quote on the basis of this biblical foundation a strong tradition of christian contemplation and mysticism Has grown up within the church over the past 2 000 years.

Many of the early church fathers of the first three centuries of the christian area era men like gregory of of nysa gregory Nazius basil of caesarea john Chrysotem, I think that's how you say it and anthony of egypt were contemplators who had mystical experiences in prayer.

Their tradition has nothing to do with.

The.

Depersonalizing self. Agnegating nirvana seeking spiritual practices of the hindus buddhists and new agers. So they're trying to make that argument. That contemplative prayer at least the writer of this article.

This is something Completely originating christendom and there was nothing syncretistic. How would you respond to what they're stating in this article?