Cultish: Is Contemplative Prayer New Age? w/ Marcia Montenegro, Pt. 2

All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults My name is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co -hosts here.

I am joined back by my trusted Super sleuth up in your brand -new super secret headquarters over in Utah.

How you doing, man? How'd you enjoy part one of our conversation with our favorite Kraken? Man, I always love having the

Kraken on well what I'm trying to do right now is I'm trying to not think right? I'm thinking maybe the best episode of cultish ever would be the silent

To just be silent the whole whole hour. It'll be a contemplated the coldest contemplative hour

Well, I would contemplate pun intended that there would probably be a lot of people to be like what's going on I think they forgot to upload their audio.

So That being said we are joined by Marcia Montenegro. I think

I'm just gonna play the clip again We usually only play in part one, but you are a favorite Kraken. So here we go Release the

Kraken All right, so we have you back we were this is a part two of our conversation.

We're talking about contemplative prayer and I think we did a hope good giving people a general overview of what's going on.

This is another example of really syncretism, this is New Age ideas mystical thinking that's sort of trying to be syncretistic blending itself in In cloaking itself in Christian terms it is very much the case

Marcia was there anything you want to elaborate on from our from what you we talked about in the first part of our series or What are your what are your kind of your initial thoughts from where we ended off?

Okay, I do want to make a point that I don't normally say well contemplative prayers New Age I say that it overlaps with the

New Age and there's some influences there Because of the syncretism and the mysticism which overlap with kind of New Age thinking so it's kind of complicated because I don't want to label things

Unfairly or in a misleading way But I mean I it there I did talk about the overlap with the

New Age and the mystical stuff that that does overlap very well and That the methods certainly are not biblical.

They're mystical I Think that would it be okay here to mention there be still

DVD. Oh, yeah. Yeah, let's mention that Okay, because I talked a bit about I think we mentioned

Richard Foster and Dallas Willard And the spiritual formation programs Dallas Ward actually was the one who put spiritual formation programs into many seminaries

And and I first heard about that from actually a person who was in one of the programs and was very disturbed

By one of the assignments he had which he did not think was biblical and he wrote me about it

But you know that that has been a lot of people have complained about those programs well,

Richard Foster and Dallas Willard who knew Thomas Keating and How close an association they had

I don't know but when Thomas Keating was alive They did have a link from their renovare website to Thomas Keating's Contemplative I think it's called contemplative outreach

I think this was the name of his website and I think it's still up. But of course, he's not around so they they had some kind of link to him and They did a

DVD called be still Which came out around 2005 2006.

I could be a year off there. Maybe to not as late as 2007 and this

DVD basically introduced the concepts of Contemplative prayer or sort of paving a way for it to the

Evangelical Church That's what it was and they had various people on here.

It wasn't Dallas Willard and Richard Foster talking. In fact, I'm not even sure they talk at all on the

DVD. They produced it They have other people on there. They have Beth Moore on there Who makes some very emotional statements typical of her?

Priscilla Shire makes some statements at that time. She was not that well -known. She's much more well -known now

But she is on board the contemplative train very much. So and And then we had there was a professor at a

Baptist seminary. I was very shocked by some of the things he said on the DVD He talked about his favorite

Saint was Francis DeSalle's Because he'd seen a statue of Francis DeSalle's in the corner of a church and somehow this

Had made an impression on him and Francis DeSalle's became his favorite

Saint well, I looked up Francis DeSalle's because I didn't really know anything about him and apparently he was one of the

Catholic priests who led the counter -reformation So I thought it was kind of odd for a

Baptist Someone who teaches at a Baptist seminary to Find Francis DeSalle's sort of a heroic figure.

I just found it everything about that DVD was so off So I wrote an article on it if people want to read it

But I think that DVD had an incredible influence and helped also pave the way this stuff was already beginning to come in There's lots of tentacles of the contemplative prayer movement such as something called listening prayer

So there's listening prayer, which is very much like contemplative prayer Where some of the same practices are used?

Yeah, and and you know, there's just these kind of I How do you say that word I read orations?

Am I saying that right? I iterations. I think yeah, is that the word? I believe so it's the word coming to me, but You know,

I think it's kind of stance it means variations of the same thing May be labeled differently.

So it's not always point people aren't going to say well, let's do Contemplative practices so they may say something else, you know, let's just let's just let's just get quiet and Let's listen for God or Oh another.

Oh, you asked me earlier about some of the phrases that you hear the big big biggie I didn't mention is the still small voice

From first King's first Kings 19. Yeah, I think That's the biggie that is used.

I heard Thomas Keating. I use it in his talk when I heard him I just read it recently

In a post I was reviewing for this program it was either about John Mark Comer or Peter Scizzaro who two of the people who are

Big on board on contemplative stuff and push it. They also both endorse the enneagram So there's another example of the enneagram contemplative connection.

Yeah so This what was I just saying before that?

Oh, yeah, there's still small voice. That is so misused So I write about that in my article on Thomas Keating on his lecture.

Okay. Well, why don't we do this night? And that's a good I appreciate you giving all the insight on that. I'm gonna give just a quick example

I pulled up this is just I looked up Earlier a while back the just an example of someone is this from a website giving instruction on how to do contemplative prayer

Just so people can kind of give an example of what that actually looks like This is from the website. There's some basic instructions and then

Marcia We will of course will let you give your thoughts in this so from this website

It says this is some basic instructions. This is a centering instructions for a centering prayer or mantra

First step says choose a prayer word or phrase that is simple that may be prayed over and over step to Relax and focus your breathing allow the breath to come naturally neither fast nor slow rest in the presence of God and In an attitude of love and emptying yourself of everything else that is worrying or otherwise unhelpful

The prayer word or phrase will help you do this Begin to then begin to say a prayer or phrase repeatedly and gently

Then if any distractions or memories keep returning as they will gently put them aside with the prayer word then the last step it says be aware of God's presence and love then it goes on to say here are some possible prayer words or phrases and they quote

Galatians 5 22 through 24 talking about the fruit of the Spirit which is love joy.

Peace patience kindness goodness Trustfulness gentleness and self -control and but it's saying specifically to choose any of those words

Within contemplative prayer and so then they give an example a title for God Jesus Jesus Lord God God of love spirit of truth or a prayer may be formed from different phrases

Come Lord Jesus or Jesus Christ or God my father or Holy Spirit and then it's just choosing all this has touched my heart

Hear me be with me be my guide help me give me faith But it's kind of giving all these words to say over and over and over again.

So just give us some examples of why Why is this problematic or is this something that you know, you can maybe some

Christians say I can justify this I mean, maybe it's good to try and set your main thing at Colossians, right?

Sets your minds on earthly things not on things on heavenly things non things below, right? How do we unpack this?

What are your initial thoughts Marcia? Okay. Um, first of all This is these are techniques.

They're teaching So it's a technique that is supposed to produce a certain result and that is not what

Christianity is about Christianity and Christianity what happens flows from our relationship with God and our our

Attitude towards him and our receptivity to his will that then then the

Christian life flows from that So it doesn't flow from techniques techniques may seem to work

Superficially or in the short term, but they won't hold out in the long term or they may become you know

They may actually grow into something worse Where you're relying on the techniques and your relationship with God thins out as a result

So this is it. These are techniques secondly There's no support biblically for the need to repeat

Certain words or phrases even if they're from the Bible that doesn't mean repeating them has any kind of good effect

Now they're saying to do this because it keeps you focused and keeps you from being distracted

That's exact. That's exactly what partly what a mantra is for in Hinduism It's it goes beyond that in Hinduism.

The mantra actually is supposed to have this Kind of supernatural spiritual effect, but part of it is to is a mind thing.

It's a mind manipulation and If you are really doing that you could actually in my opinion you could hypnotize yourself

Because you're repeating and you're trying not to think so And you're sitting there very still and they tell you about how to breathe which is very typical, too

And obviously they want you to disengage from everything Because the assumption is unless you disengage from everything

You just aren't going to have that really meaningful deep communion with God, which is a false idea

We can have I can have communion with God when I'm having a conversation with somebody

I have prayed sometimes during a conversation somebody when I felt the need for the prayer

I can pray, you know when I'm walking To get a drink of water

I can pray you don't have to have this utter Focus and disengagement with the world.

That's an Eastern Eastern religion and New Age concept So they have an assumption there that's completely false

That is the basis for all these instructions and it gives the impression to people that yeah

If I'm not, you know, if I'm distracted or I'm thinking of other things or I'm worried, you know, I'm not really going to have

That you know connection with God, you know And now I know it's true if you're really worried about something and it's just really bothering you then it's hard to focus

But you know, then you sit there maybe read some scripture ask God to help you to focus, you know

You just start praying I mean I find when I start praying the things I was worrying about Tend to go away because I'm focused on what

I'm saying to God and what I want to what I want to say to him And what I want to ask help for yeah, so, you know

Then the other things kind of fall away at least during the prayer and I usually feel a lot better after the prayer

We're after reading scripture scripture will also do the same thing it will you know, whatever it is.

It's bothering me or I'm anxious about Reading God's Word helps me either deal with it or helps me set it aside

So there that's what God's Word is living and active

Hebrews 4 12 Contemplative prayer techniques are not living and active.

They're dead techniques from men Yeah, what are your thoughts

Andrew Yeah, I have a I have a question for Marcia so thinking about like the being what they would say is being still or this unthinking or this

Unverbal type of prayer in order to avoid yourself from any form of material Let's say

What is the word I'm looking for distortion in between your connection with God and yourself and contemplated prayer?

Is there a relationship for them between like let's say like almost a pure Gnosticism in a sense that there's this

Spiritual self, but then there's also this one self that's tainted with material Reality in order to find the true self you must rid yourself of this material

Miss in order to have this oneness with God. Is there this type of thinking within the contemplated contemplated prayer circles?

Yes, I I think there I don't know if they consciously are aware of that or think that but I think it definitely is

There it certainly implies what you just said that there's something that has to be set aside

From the mind from the material world from the worries Otherwise it's going to get in the way of this connection with God and you won't have that deep

Connection or real connection or you won't have the real experience of God's presence and they often frame things

They will address people who they know are Have anxieties are worried or feeling that they're not spending enough time with God and they'll say well, are you feeling anxious?

Do you feel like you really don't have time to pray? Do you feel hurried when you pray do you forget to pray and they bring up all these?

Problems that are very real for people and then they say well Here's the answer see you can do this and then you're going to feel this deep powerful

Presence of God and so people hearing this think well, and then they're using scripture and they think well this is you know, most people

I would think think it's biblical, especially if these are Christians telling them to do this and They think we'll see that's what

I need to do. That's exactly what this be still DVD does By the way It sets up this this thing shows people hurrying around this mother rushing her children to school this man rushing off to work catching the bus and then it all this harried people and Then it shows these peaceful lakes out in the country and it says so you really need you know this

You need this rest from all this hurry and worry and here's how you you know, basically they're saying here's how you get it

You do this so Yeah, it is sort of Gnostic in the sense that it's very private.

It's very subjective It's this inner kind of thing and it's experience oriented

Yeah, so so just for me to try to think like level -headed Lee as well So I'm sure you'll be able to give me lots of information here

It seems like a reverse form of like divination and occultism because like when I think of divination and occultism

I think of using actual objects right in the material world in order to manipulate this physical world

With the mechanisms from the spiritual right to get what you want. Like that's right sorcery is about How how is this different than divination because to me it sounds almost exactly the same but you're not using physical tools

Maybe you do in Lectio Divina. You might use physical tools You might have a physical object in front of you or like a mat that you sit on when you're using that Specific Ritual that you do but um is what is the difference essentially between contemplated prayer and divination?

Is there a difference? How can we think level -headed Lee about that? well, I Don't know if I've ever thought about comparing them.

So this is a new one You know, well divination is seeking information through reading hidden meanings or through supernatural means

That's really what divination is this is kind of like seeking an experience with God through techniques

I don't know. I don't know that they would use the word supernatural. I'm not sure You're using these techniques or methods for a connection with God So in a very broad sense if you say divination is getting a connection

With some spiritual source to get information and And contemplative prayer and contemplative practices are getting a connection with God through a technique

It's there's kind of a similarity there I mean, I wouldn't say it's the same thing, but there is kind of a similarity

And both are certainly of course divination is condemned by God And I think using techniques to try to have an experience.

It's kind of like you're trying to Summon God it's like you're you're calling up God you're conjuring

God Through these techniques and some of some of the other variations

I mentioned listening prayer there's another one now that's getting more popular because people are asking me about it is imaginative prayer and also imaginative scripture reading

Where they read scripture and then you're supposed to see yourself there, which is okay I mean,

I don't have a problem really because I tend to do that Anyway, if I'm you know, hearing a passage of scripture and Jesus is you know having a conversation or healing someone

You know, I tend to see it and I might even see it as though I'm there just because I'm imaginative but then you're supposed to see yourself there and then maybe

Jesus looks at you and then you're supposed to think okay. Jesus is gonna say something to me.

What does he say to me? Well, I'm sorry, but you aren't really there and Jesus is not

You can imagine him saying something but that is just your imagination But they actually are teaching this now and somebody just messaged me a few days ago and said what do you think of this?

I was in the class at church and we were told to do this and was this exercise of Putting himself in the story and supposed to see

Jesus and then Jesus was supposed to say something to him and he was supposed to Write down what

Jesus said to him or something and I'm like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. It's not real So that's imaginative prayer.

That's kind of an extension or maybe fallout from this contemplative prayer I think it already may maybe existed before I don't know but it's becoming a little more well known now, so What am actually

I'm glad you asked that question because it's reminding me that I did I have said in the past These techniques are pagan because it is like conjuring up God You know,

I'm going to really have this connection with God now if I do a ABC I will have a deeper connection and I will have an experience of the presence

Yeah, I've got right and like I mean even like not looking like worst -case scenario

At least he might have a situation where there's kind of like I haven't have knots Like a I have sort of a special deeper connection with God because I'm doing this contemplated practice versus someone who's just Following the

Lord's Prayer. Do you think that's a dangerous byproduct of that? Yes, elitism.

It's elitism and it does produce elitism it definitely does and people

You know seem to think even if they don't say it outright that this is the more superior and deeper way

To connect with God and to experience God it that that is definitely there and I I call that an elitism

Which you also find in the new age. Mm -hmm. And so That's another dangerous part of it because in some people may actually feel they should be doing that You know, it's like well, gee, you know,

I just go to bed and I say this prayer or I say the Lord's Prayer You know sometimes and you know, maybe

I need to be doing more Gives people the idea they need to be doing more, you know reading the

Bible and doing normative prayer is not sufficient That message is definitely there because that's how they sell it.

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Yeah, no. No a great point. Great point Well, why don't we do this? Let's go ahead and just jump into maybe give some examples of how this is infiltrated the church

So when we think for example, you know We bring up names like Richard Rohr or other people that are more on the side of a lot more progressive

Evangelicalism so you think of an organization like focus on the family, right? What comes to mind when you first think of them?

You're thinking of very really traditional conservatism like focus on the family a very conservative

Patriarch you pray to your article view of the world Definitely if you look at James Dobson, he's always as typically affiliated himself with Republican presidents the whole time when he's done his ministry

Even growing up as a kid I remember being influenced by a lot by focusing the family like adventures in Odyssey Was a big fan of the show back in the day as a kid

There's a magazine by them actually called breakaway, which is kind of like the magazine for boys Right, I think they had a magazine called

Brio which is kind of like it was the alternative to 17 magazine so there there are a lot they have their arms in a lot of different places, but there was a

Article that was written called questions and concerns about contemplative prayer Can you tell us

Marsha real quickly because we're going to talk about the article. How did this article come about I? Think came about from a reader or listener who wrote them

Listener, I guess asking them for feedback on the contemplative prayer I can't remember exactly how the question was framed and they they said yes

We want to address that and then they basically wrote kind of an article laying out

Why they think this is a good method and why it's okay hmm, and Then you had written a response to it a letter as well.

I wrote a response to their yeah to their answer to that question Pointing out the flaws in their defense of contemplative prayer and the misuse of Many scriptures and biblical figures they referred to.

Mm -hmm. Was there any communication between you and focus on the family? Do you ever reach out or this is just something that you just sort of know?

It was a it was a public article and I made a public response to it exactly

I usually don't have time to try to contact people I'm going to critique I have done it a few times and it's never produced anything good it's either produced nothing or it hasn't produced anything a

Value and and I tell people I can't be an activist and a researcher and a writer and do my ministry

I have there's certain roles I just can't I don't have time for so I put the information out there then if you want to contact the person organization

Right, especially if it's somebody that you like or you followed You know or benefited from and you're concerned then you reach out to them, you know

Because I'm not even a big fan of focus on the family. So, you know So that that would and I know they have gotten a little more progressive lately

But I was still pretty shocked at their defense of this because not so much that they were defending it

But the way they defended it, okay. All right. Well, let's just do this I'm gonna read just a little bit from the article and then

Andrew Okay, that's as well to you can jump in here and you can just kind of give your own thoughts I got the it's been a while since you wrote the article and I'm sure a lot of this stuff will come to mind

So this is at the very beginning of the article This is focused on the family asking questions about whether or not contemplated prayer is new age

So this is at the very beginning of the article It says the fact that an idea looks or sounds like quote new age mysticism at first glance

Doesn't necessarily prove that it is quote new age mysticism You have to dig deeper to get to the heart of the matter

This is a case where the spiritual danger of jumping to unwarranted conclusions is very present in real indeed

Let's take a look at the scriptural evidence. It was not the wind It was not in the wind the earthquake or the fire that the

Lord spoke to Elijah it was in the still small voice of intimate personal communications first Kings 1912

David highlights the value of this type of spiritual discipline in Psalm 4 for when he writes meditate within your heart on your bed and be still and another psalmist similarly represents the

Lord as exhorting his people Be still and know that I am

God you mentioned that in part In part one a little bit go ahead and unpack this for us

Okay, this is just a great example of a really a lot of people's thinking in regards to a prayer

I mean a practice like contemplated prayer. What are your thoughts on that Marcia? Yeah Well, of course, they're misusing be still which

I had mentioned before actually is more about it's more rebuke or reprimand from God To stop striving to stop to recognize he is in charge

Israel's enemies are going to be dealt with Israel needs to trust him. That's kind of the very short nutshell message of Psalm 46 and it's not about prayer meditation or sitting still to hear

God or Experience God so that's a complete misuse the David part

Also does not that's not about a meditative Technique, you know in David, can you read the part that they quoted from David again?

The David part where it's on 4 -4 Reasons, but it's what in your it says meditate within your heart on your bed and be still

Okay, so I would want to look that up in different versions And then I would want to look at a lexicon because I know that a lot of times in the

Old Testament Heart means the whole person. It means you're you're

It means the totality of you it's you it's your mind it's your will and it's your emotions

So it's you so meditate on your heart I Would and I also want to see the rest of the psalm too because that you have to look at the context and I probably

Looked at it. And of course like I like you said, I wrote that what maybe two or three years ago I'm not sure and so I don't remember everything but Usually when

David's talking about that It's like he's focusing on the Lord and he's he's turning to the

Lord to trust him Either to because he's seeking an answer. He's seeking guidance and he's trusting him

It's not a technique. This is about this is more about an attitude. It's an attitude towards the

Lord Under what I say without looking at the rest of the Okay Yeah Some of my thoughts

I think I think it they show a little bit more of where their positions at a little bit later in the article

But I would have to agree with Psalm 440. You'd have to look at the language. I was looking it up on logos and It does there's other words for instead of meditate also ponder

But at the same time we got a look at the the ancient language see what is going on here

Look at the context but there's a difference between context and using proof texts right because I think what we're seeing here if you read the article a little bit further is

Actually where they get themselves in quite the conundrum with contemplated prayer because if you look at further in the article

It states listen, I'll read it and I'll explain why I say there's a conundrum It says it's even possible to trace the strain of spirituality to the

Apostles themselves Peter for example saw visions on the roof of the house of Simon the Tanner acts 10 9 through 16

Paul speaks of having been caught up to the third heaven where you heard inexpressible words Which is not lawful for a man to utter 2nd

Corinthians 12 2 3 4 Then there's John who's encounter with the risen Christ while in the spirit of the Lord's Day gave us the book of Revelation Now, how do they get themselves in a conundrum here?

Does contemplative prayer give you the ability to now have canon have scripture from God that must be?

Recorded that all men should they're they're not only permitted Right, but commanded and exhorted to read here and understand the scriptures question six from catechism, right?

Like that's what if you're going in contemplative prayer and these same things are occurring for you

It must be written down and I must look at it as the revelation from God I think they shoot themselves in the foot a little bit

Referring to contemplative prayer in saying well, that's what happens with the Apostles Well, if that's happening with you, then this must be scripture

I wouldn't be able to see it any other way Right. I think that's a good point. And also those three examples you gave are of course not contemplative prayer

There there's something that God did God gave Peter the vision on the rooftop, right?

God revealed those the Revelation the book of Revelation to John and gave him those visions to write down and told him to write him down and Though I forgot the third example, there was the rooftop

John there was one more Anyway, all of those wanted that was the other point

I wanted to make so I'm glad you said that in Contemplative prayer you're doing something.

That's why I called it a pagan technique. You're doing something to bring something about Supposedly Whereas in those examples

God and you and in the Bible God initiates Everything if someone has a vision it's because God gives that person a vision if you know

He tell it's a taking Paul up to the third heaven. That was the other example, right? well, God did that Paul didn't sit down and and do some kind of Meditation to get out of out of his mind or whatever you want

However, you want us and and Paul even says he doesn't know if he was in the body or out of the body So we don't even really know what happened.

Was it a vision or did he actually go there? God just give him a vision. We don't know God doesn't tell us and furthermore.

God told Paul not to tell anybody And you know told him this was to humble him Yeah, so, you know, this is not and and none of those examples have anything to do with contemplative prayer

That is that is the really almost funny part. They give those as a defense

Seemingly for contemplative prayer and none of those were the result of any kind of prayer or have anything to do with contemplative prayer hmm

Yeah, I really was floored when I read that. I remember reading that I was like, where did they get this?

What are they talking about? It's like they were really reaching. It's like they were really reaching Yeah, you talked in Marsha the earth for episode one kind of talking about the history behind of how even ancient

Contemplative prayer and how it was syncretistic back then. It's later in the article It says on the basis of this bill talking about using those proof texts specifically and then they add on they say quote on the basis of this biblical foundation a strong tradition of Christian contemplation and mysticism has grown up within the church over the past 2 ,000 years many of the early church fathers of the first three centuries of the

Christian area era men like Gregory of Nysa Gregory Naseous a basset basal of Caesarea John Chrysotom, I think that's how you say it and Anthony of Egypt or contemplators who had mystical experiences in prayer their tradition has nothing to do with the depersonalizing self

Agnegating nirvana seeking spiritual practices of the Hindus Buddhists and New Agers. So they're trying to make that argument that Contemplative prayer at least the writer of this article.

This is something completely Originating Christendom and there was nothing syncretic. How would you respond to what they're stating in this article?

Yeah, that's another element which I hadn't mentioned that desert fathers and now they say desert fathers and mothers

So they you know, they want to be include the women, of course So that's always the phrase now and I'm always you know

I remember when people used to bring up the desert mothers and fathers and of course, they're referred to of course, it's wrong to say they did the enneagram, but they're also used to try to support the enneagram and I'm always like well, you know, whatever the desert fathers and mothers did that needs to be looked at in the light of Scripture because my

Standard of the standard for a Christian should not be what the desert mothers and fathers did whoever they were and whatever they were doing it should be we're is that what they did or taught is

That in Scripture and as and I have not done a study of the desert fathers and mothers I've read about a few of them, you know

I've heard about Anthony out in the desert and they had visions and they were very they were aesthetics It was an aesthetic movement.

My understanding is it was an aesthetic movement I think they were escaping persecution at least partly or that's how it started and they were out there

Kind of in hiding and a lot of them became aesthetics which means they you know would go on these, you know go without eating

Maybe try to pray all the time or some kind of practice and of course the New Testament Speaks against asceticism

Asceticism is not Christian. So first of all, if some of them were practicing asceticism

That's not even biblical and if you go without eating for a long time and you're isolated And maybe you're doing things like trying to connect or pray with God all day, you know, you might have visions

I wouldn't be surprised if you had visions You know from lack of food or lack of water or whatever and you're gonna

I guess think these visions are from God well, they're not necessarily from God so to me

I Just personally just kind of I'm not saying none of them had anything

Good to say or that none of them really did. I'm not saying they weren't Christians I'm not saying they didn't really know

God But I'm saying their experiences have in my opinion have nothing to do with a Christian life

Hmm. I mean, I don't get I'm not that's I'm not fed from the Desert Fathers I'm Fred fed from God's Word and my relationship with Christ.

That is the true source of life and when we start looking outside of that to traditions or Something that a group of Christians did in the fourth century, you know, yeah, you can look at it for historical interest or Research or whatever, but that isn't that shouldn't be

The way to inform your faith unless it matches with the Bible. Mm -hmm

Yeah and even if you look at the basic definitions of mysticism even if you look at and how people are practicing it if you look

Within those definitions. There is an assumption of a worldview of one ism When it comes to mystic practices where it's it's a coming to a deeper

You're going into certain practices to get into some sort of Altered state of consciousness to come to within some sort of mystic revelation of yourself that you're part of this divine consciousness

I mean you just look up mysticisms research it What's the conclusion of that?

And I think one of the errors in my opinion that the person I'm sure this person is genuine and sincere, but I think one of the errors that they're making is that The Church Fathers are not the standard scriptures the scriptures are and in this case even even the sounds you're trying to make an assumption that mysticism is fundamentally originated within Christianity at least this aspect of contemplative prayer the fundamental assertions within a

Mystical worldview or antithetical in many ways it kind of denies that the two ism

Which is which is which is the categorical distinction that Paul made in Romans one of about what separated the gospel of From all the different pagan worldviews of the ancient times that he was dealing with for sure

Andrew, what are what do you have some additional thoughts? No, I think that's I think that's a good a little summary there

We got it We got to be really careful when we're reading a response from someplace that also doesn't cite anything from these people

They just mentioned the names in order to give it authority But I see no information or quotes even from these people

If we if we really did care about the person who's asking the question and wanted to give a good response

We should at least have some type of information for them to make their own decision This article in itself just seems like an end -all be -all

This is what the answers is and there is no room for questioning which is where I have a little bit of an issue

With it. We should we should question it and like Marcia said the Kraken like Asceticism especially if it's practiced by these early

The early church fathers here if they were or not church fathers, but the desert fathers We got to be wary of that Especially in terms of thinking about fasting like Marcia was talking about we talked about this in our

Church of Wells Episodes that one of the leaders mentioned having visions after they fasted for X amount of days

Well, who is the first person to show up to Jesus when he was fasting for 40 days, right?

It was the devil in the only way Jesus besides being

God through the power of God He was perfect in every way. He cast down the devil with what the words of God not unthinking

He was actually two real words and the Word of God written in Scripture the words of God itself

So, how are you gonna guard yourself? Right in this type of contemplative prayer when you're not supposed to think of even the scriptures

Like how can you guard yourself anything? yeah, that's a good point because the Bible says in several places the the

Word of God is the sword of the Spirit and And in Revelation that vision and of Jesus coming coming to conquer the wicked

It says he has in his mouth this the sword the sword of the Spirit. I believe it's a sword

It's a two -edged sword. It's the Word of God I think it's something like that, but I know the sword of the Spirit is the

Word of God. And so That's very true. And like you said Jesus answered with words and I wanted to quickly piggyback on what

Jerry said about mysticism the classic definition of mysticism is unmediated contact with God Unmediated That's a classic definition not necessarily

Christian just mysticism because you find it everywhere You find it in all religions like Sufism is the mystical

Child of Islam and you know, you just have all kinds of mystical sects that are offsprings of other religions and so You know, that's it's unmediated

Contact with God or whatever is conceived of as God the divine the source of all whatever it's called.

Mm -hmm What would be some examples Because a big not just in contemplative prayer, but you're focusing on people who are in the new age or different new age practices

What would be some if you do a side -by -side comparison of other people who are in the new age who are practitioning?

I'm thinking of for example the Hare Krishnas We had an episode when we first started right right when we launched we had a guy

Alexander Larson who Was spent 10 to 15 years of his life as somebody who is a

Hare Krishna devotee and he'd always talk how they do those repetitions over and over and over again and Eventually that gets you into a very altered state of conscious.

Yes. You see that example What are some examples that come to mind for you? in the new age

What are some examples in the new age that are similar to contemplative prayer that you well a lot of the well new agers who?

do Eastern meditation Some of them would have mantras There's a famous mantra from Tibetan Buddhism om mani padme hum

Which I used to say when I was meditating I would say either whisper it or say it in my head

I later did not use a mantra, but initially I did and in of course transcendental meditation

When you're initiated they give you a mantra which they tell you not to tell anybody.

I didn't do TM, but I had I knew people who did and I I've known about it in my ministry and they give you a mantra to repeat

So there's some examples I don't think all new agers are into this repetition.

That's not a Uniform thing in the new age. It's more people who are maybe into certain kinds of either

Eastern Meditation or some other kind of meditation where they've been taught to use certain words

Sometimes it's more a focus on things. It all depends on what you're doing. The new age is just so vast and It's so complex that you can't say one thing.

That's true for all the new age But you know, I think the the connection really is the mystical

Aspect of of Trying to trigger Although you don't think of it that way you're triggering an experience a spiritual experience, okay?

No, I think that's that's the connection that's the similarity with the new age, okay, no that that's very helpful.

I appreciate that. Thank you What's a couple of other things that come to mind as far as as well proof texts that are brought up To try and justify contemplative prayer.

There's the account in the Gospels how Jesus went away Into the mountains to pray. I think oh, yeah

Yeah I think there's an assumption and I just I was trying to think of that in the minds of someone who had just if I Contemplate of prayer there probably would be an assumption that you need to get away from everything and somehow

Getting up into the mountains to pray means sort of isolating yourself from everything material maybe emptying your mind

Well, is that how they interpret that and then how would you respond to that? Yes. I've had many people say to me

Well, you know Jeeve and Jesus went off and meditated and my answer always is that were the word meditation is not even in the

New Testament And it never says that Jesus went off to meditate It says he went off either to pray and at least once it says he went off to be alone because the crowd their crowds were following him and Wouldn't leave him alone basically in some cases.

So he went off to pray and he went off of course to pray To the father and it makes sense that he would go off alone

I mean, you're probably things he was saying that was just between him and the father and not for the disciples to hear or maybe

It been his you know, his he was a man. He was tired. He had thirst. He had hunger

He got tired and he needed to be away so that you know, there's nothing unusual about that and has nothing to do with Contemplative prayer and also

I forgot earlier. It came to me and I didn't say it the word meditation in the Old Testament Doesn't have to do with the technique it has to do with pondering and reflecting usually

God's Word so you're pondering and reflecting on God's Word or on who God is and It's a it's actually using the mind.

You're actually using the mind And so it's the opposite of trying to put all the thoughts aside and to try not to think it's the opposite But the word meditation because it's used today and the meaning of it tends to be more of the more

Eastern especially in the secular world an Eastern kind of technique

Although a lot of people don't know that but that's what it is It's the opposite of biblical meditation

So the word is confusing and misleading to people because they think you know, well biblical meditation.

Well, that's what I'm doing Mmm, okay, and then one other one and Andrew I'll let you jump if you have any ones you anything you want to bring up and I just thought of this

I thought about maybe playing devil's advocate a little bit I'm trying to think of like well if I was if I felt like I was listening as reading an article of yours and I Was trying to I just need to defend myself.

What's the reverse I can think of to justify? This and what came to mind at least for me was first Samuel Chapter 1 and verse 12.

This is the context Hannah who is barren And she's wanting to have a child and it's but and she's her husband

I just had like enough is enough go go to the tabernacle and go pray about it. And this is verse 12

I was talking about Hannah and It says and she continued praying before the

Lord Eli observed her mouth Hannah was speaking in her heart only with her lip only her lips moved and her voice was not heard

Therefore Eli took her to be a drunken woman and then Eli said to her how long will you go on being drunk?

Put your wine away from you and then Hannah goes and explains herself So I would think so that somebody would have that position.

Well, she's just speaking in her heart and her lips are moving So maybe this is really some sort of form of Contemplative prayer her own version of prayer.

She is doing to express the emotions towards God, right? So, how would you respond to that as say

I was I'm somebody trying to justify my actions a contemplated prayer How does the cracker respond to that?

Okay All right, I will rise to the assignment To your challenge.

Yes. Yes My answer would be that she's praying verbally because her lips are moving

So, you know, she's praying Not saying the words out loud, but I guess she's just you know

Saying them in kind of a whisper. Sure. Her lips are moving as she's not speaking, but she's speaking in her mind

It says in her heart and like I said earlier that that can be mine to heart also means mine

So we have a heart mind dichotomy, which is another result of Contemplative prayer movement and it's a false dichotomy.

So I also address that and so There's nothing there that's contemplative.

And of course You know it who was it Samuel miss Yes in first Samuel.

This is the communication between Well, this is Eli the problem. I'm sorry. Yeah, it's Eli, right?

Sorry Eli I knew I knew Samuel didn't sound right Eli, you know just assumes she's been drinking because he sees this woman standing there, you know with her lips moving and he thinks well

You know, this woman is drunk and maybe most people didn't pray like that. So he just made a long assumption

So I think she was just I think she was praying. She just wasn't speaking out loud and That to me is not a base that doesn't give any endorsement

Also beyond that that's narrative and we don't get doctrine from narrative we need to have it backed up somewhere else

Where it's not just narrative where somehow there's an instruction or something is said, you know

And in a propositional way that says you should do this right now, you know, that's it's just narrative

That's the problem also with the passage about Elijah in the cave and the still small voice

That's a narrative and on top of that Elijah was a prophet, you know, and so I'm not a prophet

I don't think if I go into a cave, I'm not going to expect God to somehow summon me But what's interesting about that passage is the still small voice because I let me just say something about this that's a trend that is a disputed translation because The word there also meet can mean stirring or breath or even kind of a whisper or went like a little breeze

So it's it can be interpreted and it is if you look at different Translations, they will they don't all interpret it that way.

Sometimes it says there was a stirring So it wasn't really it doesn't say there was a word because then that gets

Elijah's attention He goes out the mouth of the cave and that's where God speaks to him and God speaks to him verbally in Words because that's how

God communicates with us. You know, I always want to say hello the Bible's in words, right?

Right all words There's no pictures. There's no comics. There's no videos

It's not a hum a high hum, you know, it's all Verbal words that how that is how

God spoke to the prophets as far as we know and it certainly is it's recorded That's how the

Bible is written. It's all verbal. It's language language comes from God and So, um, you know one of my professors said

I asked him once I knew what he was gonna say because he taught Hebrew I said so what's the language in heaven and he said Hebrew, of course

So, you know God uses words and The still small stirring whatever it was some kind of noise got

Elijah's attention in Contrast God was working differently there than on Mount Sinai when he had the lightning and the thunder and The loud noises the crashing loud found thunder that showed everybody

God's presence Now God's showing his presence in the absence of all of that You know, it's just and then you can go on and make you know, go on from there and make all kinds of I guess

You know theological points But the bottom line is that that is not an endorsement of sitting and trying to listen for God's voice

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Gotcha. Gotcha. No, I appreciate that and I think this is I think everything you're you're talking about elaborating on even these full two episodes

Just in this aspect of contemplated prayer just shows Really just the danger of just the and also just the allure

That yeah, is that that I just want to have that little secretive thing that maybe no one else has

But when you actually just look biblically of what we have as Christians just the connection our union with Christ You think about in Ephesians?

We've been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ and the accessibility Have that came at an immense cross at immense cost when

Christ what was crucified on the cross and And now the access that we have to the

Father through him being our mediator. I think it's just we tend to very quickly forget just What we have and then in exchange for somehow this weird esoteric contemplative nuanced mysticism

Andrew what are your thoughts or do you have what are some questions? You may have either proof text or any other ideas of what would come to mind if any devil's advocate things come to mind for You what are your thoughts?

It's hard for me to do the the devil's advocate So I was like pulling up first Samuel one if you just read literally the verse before it says that she's praying and it gives

You the first half of the prayer. She's literally speaking to the Lord Whether it be in her heart, you know

It tells you that she's not doing what contemplative prayer is asserting into the scriptures

So that's what we have to have in our minds is we when we hear things About the presuppositions behind contemplate to prayer and the proof text that they're using

Well, let's see if they're trying to assert anything into the Bible in general, right?

Like you're talking about even with Elijah Well, it doesn't say Elijah did some type of contemplative prayer technique for this still small voice

It doesn't say that the Lord actually came to him the way I came to him What we see all throughout the scriptures is that the

Lord comes to us the Word of the Lord appeared to Abram, right? And like I said with almost every single

Prophet in the major and minor prophets when there's a prophecy or something's going to happen This is the Word of the Lord appears not that they do

XY or Z to make these things happen I mean Jesus is our mediator.

He has been the mediator from the Old Testament in to the new right? He's the Lord of Glory.

It's him always Intercessing for the father on our behalf without him from old to new

We wouldn't know the words of the Lord in general like that It's it's so glorious.

Like you said Jerry that we have something so much greater than any form of contemplative prayer Yeah it ever offer which is free and unashamed access to the

Father through the blood of Jesus Christ and like To really hold on to that as Christians to understand that there is no

Ritual that needs to be done in order to have a deeper relationship with the father Because if you think there's some outside ritual that needs to be done in order to grow your relationship with the father

You're not actually relying on the ritual that's already been performed when Jesus Christ's blood was shed on the mercy seat

Tetelestai it is finished. We need to rely on what Jesus has done and through him have our relationship with the father grow

So not that our will tries to bend the will of the father But instead in prayer our will aligns with the will of God like that that's the point of prayers for us to grow in relationship with the father and Well in the knowledge of our

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit the Trinitarian God in Order to love him like it's a it's a beautiful thing.

Like God doesn't need God doesn't need our prayers, right? Prayers to help us grow in relationship to him and to be conformed into the image of Christ It's it's kind of it's so much more simple and so much more freeing.

I think yes. Yes this others This other stuff. That's the other thing is contemplative stuff can become very legalistic where you know the other language that's used with it as the disciplines and So you have all these disciplines that they try to get from the

Bible and I have pointed out There is no discipline of silence and there is no discipline of solitude taught in Scripture Yes, people went off to be by themselves

But that is not teaching us to practice a discipline of solitude and there's absolutely no discipline of silence so And I took all the verses that that have been used for that and showed that they do not teach that Yeah, so each these disciplines now it now, you know, it depends a lot in what you mean by that word

The discipline of prayer if you just want to say well that's trying to get into a habit of prayer

I'm not against that but they usually are going way way beyond that and saying These are the ways that you are going to be transformed.

This is what Ruth Haley Barton says in her book. She's talking constantly about Transformation this is how you get transformed and she has all these methods and techniques

She goes at great length and speaks beautifully about them. She's a good writer and she talks about them in personal ways and some of them are very

Emotional and touching but none of it is is biblical. It's none of it's taught biblically

It's just all her whole that's her realm. It's like the Ruth Haley Barton contemplative realm and What's going on?

You're like in another room And I have gone so far as to say because this is my feeling in the last two years

Especially that content that connect contemplative practices or contemplative spirituality is a counterfeit

Christianity, I think it is a counterfeit Christianity that is seeking not that the people teaching it or seeking us

But the spirit behind it is is It is trying to replace the

Holy Spirit and God's Word Just like the enneagram. I think the enneagram does the same thing in a different way

But I think that's what the contemplative prayer actually may be even bigger than the enneagram because it's kind of swallowing things in its path and I Believe it's like a replacement for the

Holy Spirit and for God's Word because whenever you find it you find a downgrading of doctrine

You find we're into this tend to not like it if you want to be really doctrinally correct about things

Not in a legalistic way, but you're just like comparing things with scripture scripture and saying well,

I don't find that You know supported or I think that's a there's a problem with that because it conflicts with this

Biblical teaching then you're being you know, then you're kind of being like a maybe a Pharisee or something

Yeah, do you think there's also a danger amongst Christians who would go about to practice contemplative prayer?

That there's order creates a code a necessary codependency upon These sort of repetitions or contemplations where if they think that if I do this methodology

Maybe this will come about But then if it doesn't come about because sometimes God answers our prayer by saying no that maybe they make all of a sudden think

Well, what's wrong with me? What am I doing wrong? Very similar to a lot of times people in the word of faith movement where if you're not healed you didn't have enough faith

Do you see a correlation there? I Think maybe it's a little different because they're not really seeking

Necessarily they may be see well she talks about seeking answers in her book, but it's it's so complex and involves so many factors that That in some way you're going to get an answer somehow because they're just so many options in there

For how things are going to work and it's not so much like you're praying and seeking an answer and then you you know

You you see is how's God going to answer this or is he going to just work another way? Or is this just not going to happen the way

I'm thinking it might happen It's more like you try to get in this in this state

Where you're looking the answers could come almost from anywhere. I almost feel like sometimes it's almost like looking for signs

She doesn't say that and I haven't seen anyone say that but that's the this is something I have to think about more

Because I've really just kind of started Noticing this that it's almost like looking for signs and things

That you're going to interpret as God's answer because they're not looking they're not looking and basing it on God's Word And I don't mean that God won't answer your prayer in a

Circumstance because he might you might pray for a job and it's Lord if you want me to have this job and then you might

Get the job and you would think okay. God's allowing me to have this job That's an answer to prayer and that's an answer in a circumstance

But it's it follows a pattern in Scripture Whereas these other things are more like interpreting all these different things a certain way because they don't have any objective

They don't have any they're not basing it on anything objective I think that's what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, and when that happens you can get all kinds of interpretations So I think either the person will feel they aren't doing the practices enough or they aren't doing them correctly if they feel they're not

Connecting with God or they may just start interpreting things Incorrectly as the answer, right?

Yeah, and I think one of the things that that's really important I think and you can be a thoughts March is that a conversation like this

People might feel a little bit confused, but I think a lot of that just comes from the nuance Of something that is very much trying to differentiate between False and true.

So I mean anything of a correlation So I think about the we're in a spiritual spiritual warfare, right?

So you think about a definitive battle, right? so you think about the Revolutionary War and think of a particular battle that was definitive

Americans are on this side then British are on this side Versus there's the AMC show for it that came out.

I think it was in 2014 at 14 called turn which was all about spies Is the spies that work for George Washington?

But then you have spies in the British side and you kind of don't know Maybe somebody's really a turncoat or somebody's actually working as a double agent.

So you're actually both sides are infiltrating each other So there's a lot of nuance between who's really who's really on whose side?

Very left and right. So when we've had you on discussing for example Witchcraft and we were answering the claims of which talk this would be an example of way out there where you're looking at stuff

That's definitively new age Definitively a cultic and everyone would probably look at let's say yes

That is very problematic. We need to give an answer to that when you're looking at something like this.

This is a lot more Nuance and kind of intermixed and there's a lot of murkiness.

Do you think that's a fair assessment? Yes, absolutely. And I think that is one of the difficulties of addressing this area and why

I've had to do so many articles and Facebook Because there are so many aspects to it, you know,

I haven't even you know, we've probably haven't even addressed You know 20 % of it on these two programs and it or we probably address the majority

Areas of it, but they're just you know to go into it in more detail It you just can't get there because it takes too much time and people don't need all that anyway but there's so many little threads from it and so many people connected to it and So many different words used for it that sound innocuous that that and people hear it and they they don't want to write that off because they think well

Maybe this person is a Christian. Maybe they have a point and Without knowing what it's really about without really knowing the distinction between this and biblical prayer and biblical practices

It's very easy to to get confused about it. Yeah, I think it's very Confusing and nuanced and Difficult to parse to parse out the truth from the false in this area

I mean I've had to do a lot of thinking When I'm writing about it because I want to be very clear in what

I'm saying and I want to make sure Representing the scriptural teachings Ver and why are these teachings false, you know?

I want to be totally clear on that at least in my own mind not that I'm always right

But I'm trying to be Clear and it's difficult. It's difficult for me.

And this is something I've dealt with for many many years. I started reading Thomas Keating and Basil Pennington in the 1990s as a

Christian. Mm -hmm. And so You know, I I was beginning to see the problems there, but I couldn't even articulate them yet.

It's took me a long time To with a lot of reading and thinking so it is it is it's a lot

It's a big it's a big area to try to digest. Hmm, Andrew. What are your final thoughts as we wrap up here?

Yeah, I could see a lot of spiritual not necessarily abuse but trauma occurring when people are having these forms of Contemplative prayer and they see let's say or let's say imaginative prayer for example

And they see Jesus look at them Say they're imagining the upper room discourse and then all of a sudden Jesus looks at them and says something to them and then they base their life off of this and they go and they talk to other people about what

Jesus had said to them even though It wasn't Jesus, you know and people then make life decisions and then things happen and there's upsets, you know, it's dangerous

I mean Joseph Smith even started a school of the prophets himself He later disabanded it because many people were having revelations, right?

But he wanted to be the ultimate revelator But then we see in 1984 in American Fork, Utah the school of the prophets happening again

Mind you it's not the mainstream LDS organization that's practicing this But then there's the Lafferty brothers where they have a revelation for blood atonement to kill their sister -in -law and their niece, right?

So the the danger is is if you think you're hearing the voice of God and someone else's how do you discern between what is?

What is right and what is wrong? Yeah, if everything is so subjective I think pain trauma

Comes from these and Marsha. I agree with you from what you said earlier. I don't think it's the spirit of God That's behind it.

Definitely I think it's more of a spirit of confusion of something that's trying to take you away from the Word of God in your relationship

With the Holy Spirit. I it's hard for me to understand The benefit of something when you can't even know it's true

I know the Word of God is true because God says so and it's a revelation

Outside of my sense experience in the sense that is the objective Word of God Whereas Contemplative prayer or any revelation given from it is purely subjective in nature and altogether

Meaningless compared to the Word of God, right and very private. It's very it's also often private

It's like for me in the message for me and not that God doesn't ever have a message for you

But it's people are thinking this is all from God and that's that to me is also the big danger is that They they may start having ideas about who

God is and who Jesus is based on these experiences and You know if it takes you away to see it

This seems much more exciting than sitting down and doing a Bible study to a lot of people not to me doing a

Bible study Is exciting because I love I love I love studying the Bible I just really love it and I like Bible studies

But a lot of people either haven't been You know haven't been taught rightly how to do it or have had maybe bad teachers or who knows what and or they see it as sort of dry and boring and This is much more exciting because see you can experience the presence of God and one thing

I know is a former New Ager and I think every former New Ager will agree with me on this Experiences are addictive.

They are like a drug and when you start having what you think are spiritual experiences You want more of them and you will never have enough of them

But you will keep trying to have them and that's that to me is another big danger of this area

All right. Yeah, I definitely would agree with you. Well Marcia. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing with us

This has been another great experience with the Kraken. We'd love it as always to have you on again just real quickly

Where can people find out more about you? What's kind of your What's your home address on them internet

I am and I am a solo social social media person. So I am only on Facebook I'm not on those other places.

That's Facebook is all I can handle I have a ministry page called Christian answers for the new age that you can like and follow you can message me there

Or if you can't find it for some reason you can and if you can find me although there are other Montenegro's believe it or not.

You can message me. I try to check my message requests and Also, I have a website

Christian answers for the new age org Go to the articles page and you can see articles on a lot of topics including

Several related to what we talked about today contemplative prayer an article on Thomas Keating the be still

DVD Psalm 46 10 and and other things so please

Go there and you can also do searches on Facebook or on Google for my

Facebook posts or you can contact me if there's a particular area You want to know about and I will try to find if I've done a post on it.

I'll give you a link Excellent. Excellent. Well, I think thank you again for coming on and yeah

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