Beckwith Interview Review Part I

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James white Well, here we go again every little bit something comes up that Requires us to once again focus attention upon what really matters focus attention upon How the gospel and what the gospel means and how we're to stand for the gospel and everything else and Over the weekend

Frank Beckwith Appeared on stand to reason with Greg Koukl and I had the opportunity of listening while writing yesterday to the

To the interview and Likewise noted that on the blog at stand to reason

Dr. Beckwith was making some comments. And so I began to respond. I would invite you to read the comment thread for yourself

I honestly think it speaks for itself pretty clearly One side brings up lots of issues and one side doesn't respond to those issues, but moves on to the things it is amazing

That those who have reputation as being focused like a laser in Debating issues like abortion when it comes to Rome all of a sudden words no longer have meanings and we can well

So it depends on how you define those things amazing how that works, but What I wish to do today is play portions and comment on things that are being said if you'll notice

There is a current discussion. I just posted a few moments ago In response, dr.

Beckwith assertion. He didn't read indeed read the Council of Trent. I don't know how what he said

In this interview fits with that, but we will see I don't know that he's going to comment anymore

His last comment was that he's a 46 year old man, and he's tired Well, I'm almost 45 and I'm quite busy too.

But when it comes this issue I am NOT tired and by God's grace will never become tired because this is the whole reason that we are here this is where The rubber meets the road now the interview began with Greg Koukl making it very plain that he expected

There to be disagreements during the course of the interview So let's

I think it's important to point this out because later on all of a sudden That that sort of changes not on Greg Koukl's part but on Frank Beckwith's part looking for here in our conversation together is clarity and not agreement and There are going probably

Frank and I are going to disagree on a lot here in the next two hours And and I need to confess at the outset a little bit of discomfort with that.

I'll tell you the listeners I mentioned this to Frank earlier in the week when we met together at Summit Ministries in Colorado where we were both speaking

We have two hours to talk together about a topic We both care deeply about and I suspect that the major portion of the time will be disagreeing

And I don't think we've hardly ever disagreed Frank on anything.

We really care about in the pen now notice Sounds to me

Like Koukl is saying we are going to disagree and that indicates to me that there is going to be some back -and -forth

There's going to be dialogue going on here. This isn't just a time for Frank Beckwith to utilize stand to reason as a means of sharing his journey

I Don't know how you could possibly expect a ministry that has been as clear in Taking a stand on certain issues as stand reason is how could you expect that you'd be given two hours of time to?

Share your journey. That's what the journey home is for. He's going to be on that next month and that's where That's where the softballs get pitched and he gets to do whatever he jolly well wants to do as far as you know sharing his journey goes

But that's not what I expected this to be and I don't think anybody else did either now. What were the sources in?

That's Frank Beckwith looked at in regards to his conversion. There are a couple places where that came up.

Here is one section I'm not I'm not playing the entire interview I'm just playing portions of the of the interview and we're going to be examining examining those

You know, I was once a fundamentalist now. I'm a Catholic type book right and they were not that convincing

You know and and and those weren't maybe the best books for me to read initially, but they got me you know looking at other sorts of questions about the church fathers and the history of the church, but none of that really

Didn't seem to make much of a difference to me I was at immediately after that or a couple of months after that I ascended to the vice president or the president -elect status of ETS and put together the program and The furthest thing from my mind was becoming

Catholic then in October of 2006

I I was invited to speak at the University of Dallas to a to the

Society of Catholic social scientists. I was invited to deal with a paper

Offered by or presented by Jay, but you chef key, right? We know Jay and he's a he's a convert to Catholicism as well, right?

And so I gave it was actually a about a 15 -minute response to Jay We're you know, just like you and I mean,

I don't think I disagree with I mean he dealt with natural law stuff and actually dealt with some of the criticism of natural law by thinkers and now you

Coco said uh -huh there and and covered him over but The paper was in defense of natural law against reformed thinkers

Okay, keep keep that in mind. I think that's somewhat relevant and the next morning my wife and I had breakfast with Jay's wife and Jay and we and Frankie broached the topic of Catholicism Frankie's my wife, right and we talked for about three hours and I think

Some of what you know, I had some pretty serious questions to ask especially About some of the doctrines that That I think most evangelicals are uneasy about and you know, the purgatory

Mary stuff. Mm -hmm Just in passing. I would never ever describe my

Relationship to Roman Catholic doctrines as something. I'm uneasy about That's that's not the language of a convinced

Protestant. Well, I'm uneasy I mean, I'm uneasy with the Jehovah's Witness doctrine that Jesus Michael the

Archangel I'm uneasy with the Islamic denial of the crucifixion. No, that's it's not a matter of uneasiness

This will come out more I think as we consider what is said during this interview and The authority claim and justification kind of all wrapped in there, right?

I mean for me ultimately the issue of justification really was the linchpin and something that actually

Didn't I had not overtly thought about until after the November meeting at ETS what happened is that after that meeting with Jay?

You know, he offered to talk with me Privately over the next couple months and that never happened.

What happened was we just had a just very busy So I went to ETS Was elected president that the meeting

I thought went very well, we had some very good speakers and then in January of this year,

I Took it upon myself to Sort of go to a kind of reading marathon to try to read as much as I can on these questions

Now for those who maybe have been living under a rock since early May This is dr

Frank Beckwith who at the time is can his Reversion back to Roman Catholicism was president the Evangelical Theological Society and I want you to keep the time frames in in light here

He's just talked about January of this year January 2007 that's not very long ago when this reading marathon begins and lasts for between 90 and 120 days

Whatever time was allowed during that period of time. I don't know he does not mention but that's this year All right, we're not talking about multiple year studies here we're talking about something over the course of three or four months and Though I read first of Mark Knowles book is the

Reformation over read a number of actually a portions of a of a book by Wolfhard Pannenberg and by the way,

I reviewed Mark Knowles book just a few weeks ago here on the program. I read the review that I wrote for the

CRI Journal And if you're wondering the Mark Knowles book is Reformation over the answer he gives is yes

And Mark Knowles now at Notre Dame Shockingly enough, I Carl Lerman who both

German Catholic Lutheran and German theologians caught the condemnations of the Reformation era.

Do they still divide? read the portions of the Catholic Anarchism and Just just read it just lots of stuff and In March I began to really start to think

Okay read lots of stuff Salmon's infallibility Church Whitaker good any of those works

I don't see any evidence of it if they if he did read those that then he doesn't Consciously seek to provide any apologetic response to them in in what he what he says now

One of the things is extremely troubling to me and this comes out more than once Is the dr.

Beckwith is now asserting? That the reformed view of salvation can be found in the

Bible and history as Can the Catholic one and it's the reason he's gone back to Catholicism is is he feels that it better?

accounts for the biblical evidence But both can be found Now, why would that bother me so much real simple folks?

Here's where the rubber meets the road if that's true, then the Bible is insufficient to even define what the gospel is

And if you can't define the gospel there can be no church discipline there can be no proclamation

There can be no apologetics. There can be nothing it's all a matter of personal private opinion or you sign that over to somebody else in essence and That I think is one of the major problems.

Okay, go ahead justification. Yeah for me there were Well, let me

Let me just tell you sort of my thought process and then I'll sort of explain to you why

I think How I came to draw the conclusions I did about the

Catholic view of justification I mean the first thing that that occurred to me while reading the vast amounts of material and and by the way

I had been like you Taught by John Warke Montgomery at at Simon Greenleaf and one of my professors at Back then at Simon Greenleaf was

Michael Smythe and I had taken a course on the history of the church And so, you know one of the benefits of having educated by Lutheran hmm is that you do get a real sense of what happened during that time and Of course,

I had a pull out of mothball some of my old books I had not read a lot of these things for some time because it just wasn't the center or focus of my ministry work

Which I think we all of us can probably speak to that at some point, you know Tend to concentrate on one area and not really

Keep up on everything. So I The thing that occurred to me was that I think you know having read the

Catechism as well as some contemporary Catholic authors and even going back to the

Council of Trent that I think that the Catholic view is Biblically and and historically defensible now what the one thing

I did conclude though is that I think that the reform view Is also biblically and historically defensible is

I think the scriptural data on the topic That is everything from what we get in Romans to Hebrews to Galatians and even the words of Christ and the

Gospels gives us a Wide range of ways in which justification or eternal salvation is

It and I I think at the end of the day that the Catholic view is the one

There's a I'm sorry about that is the one that best explains these things. So at the end of the day

It's basically a matter of taste, you know, he's just decided the Catholic view does a little bit better job But hey, you know what they're both there

And if that's the case, this is all just a matter of personal opinion and to be honest with you I think what we're going to discover as we listen to this over time is

That one of the things that Beckwith is confused as he just doesn't see why people are so upset about this because see he's a philosopher and He was raised as Roman Catholic.

He was trained in Jesuit institution and I as I said on the blog today have never heard him.

I've and someone like to point me to this I'd like to read it, but I have never heard About a soul -shattering

Confession making Change of heart to where he embraced the gospel of grace over against The preaching of the

Roman Catholic Church. I don't I have never heard him speaking about anything like that I don't know that he's written about those fundamental foundational things and So you have someone he himself will say in this interview

I still had the Roman Catholic view of the purse of the human person Well, if you still have the the view of the of the human person

You're still in opposition to the Reformation even if you claim to be a Protestant and there are lots of Protestants today

How many times have I pointed out how many Protestants are inconsistent? They they actually are on Erasmus's side against Luther that they they aren't

Catholics But they don't really have any reason not to be because when it comes to the nature of the will and grace

Not a TV show, but the will and grace that they hold their own Catholic perspective and So it's not that big of a jump for him.

This has just been a paradigm shift rather than the earth -shaking idea of Having a heartfelt commitment to the gospel of grace and now a heartfelt commitment to Rome's gospel

This is a paradigm shift. And I think that's one of the reasons that he's a little bit confused as to why people are so So very strong about this

Now Greg Kochel is being accused by Jimmy Akin and others people on the STR board of having

Steamrolled tried to steamroll Frank Beckwith, I think it's completely and grossly unfair the fact matter is only one of the two sides presented anything biblically meaningful at all and For a

Protestant to define why Greg Kochel is a former Catholic. He was raised Roman Catholic.

So he's giving his reasons Why he does not agree with her Roman Roman Catholicism says he's walking on eggshells the whole time you can tell he's doing everything he can

To try to avoid a necessary offense, but the fact the matter is his presentation had

Bible to it it used biblical passages and in context and showed biblical knowledge and Beckwith didn't

He's a philosopher not a theologian and so people all he was he was just really mean to him. That's baloney

That that's just baloney and here's a good example of it. Here is where Greg Kochel raises key issues

He knows what the issues are. He knows what's at stake. Here is the gospel I don't get any feeling that Beckwith sees it that way.

He doesn't see this as if he see well, they know they're both there You know, I just it's just a matter of taste here

I'll defend my taste but you know, they're both there and Kochel saying wait a minute. They can't be both there They're contradictory to one another.

They if they're both there then God has mumbled to us in his revelation and Kochel recognizes if that's the case then all this stuff where we say

God has spoken clearly to social issues We're pulling the wool over people's eyes If we can't even define the gospel

How in the world can I look somebody straight in the eye and say God has spoken to the issue of abortion or homosexuality or?

anything else He recognizes that Beckwith if he does doesn't doesn't bring it out in this is this has been a big deal for me when

I left the Catholic Mid -60s haven't been I guess I would say a faithful but spiritually nominal

Catholic I wasn't you know I was just 16 at the time and so I had grown up with this and I was I Was wedded to that way of thinking as a youngster and a member of my family

You know how that happens with family old background cultural this and that and then when I became someone

I who was thinking for myself in this I had to decide whether I actually believe these things when I then in 1973 became a follower of Christ I heard a gospel message that was quite a bit different than had ever been delivered to me before in the multitude of Roman Catholic churches that I'd been in and having gone through Four years of Roman Catholic schooling and then

CCD after that up to high school. So which was Catholic Christian doctrine I guess is what it stands for but right the catechism stuff and What set me free as a follower as a new follower of Christ is the contrast that I saw in the message that I was being

Communicated by my brother Mark and other Christians at the time and that and that that's what informs this question

And so my question is this it is the Christian immediately forgiven and cleanse of his sins in virtue of his faith in Christ and therefore can have the assurance of eternal life as a present possession and not just a future hope and I take

Rome's answer to be no I'm gonna give you a lawyerly answer. It depends what you mean by each well

Stop it right there. I'll give you a lawyerly answer. No, give me the real things to stand up and be counted

It's one or the other Well, it depends what you mean by all those things. No, do you have eternal life as a present possession right now and anyone who knows historic

Roman Catholic theology knows these things about Mortal sins and venial sins and purgatory and all the rest of stuff and How you can commit mortal sins and lose the grace of justification and you grow in the grace of justification

There are many people who are the sons of God at one point But then lose that standing become the enemies of God blah blah blah blah blah blah

Anyone who has practiced Roman Catholicism throughout their entire lives, especially back in the 40s and 50s and before Vatican II You know is sitting here

Listen this guy going does he has he actually talked to a priest yet or anything like that? Really wondering what what the world's going on and What do you mean?

I give you a lawyerly answer see Coco was focused He's asking the right stuff and he's just not getting answer

I mean when when a Christian is and I think your understanding of I think Protestant justification is pretty straightforward when the

Christian Genuinely, and I'm not just talking about you know, the hope that springs up and they don't have the root and so they die away

But there's a genuine turning to Christ in genuine faith and so there's a regeneration that happens part of the package is a justification that secures for the follower of Christ at that point eternal life in Virtue of the fact that the work of Christ has been applied to their life and because of that the good news becomes good news

We know we have eternal life as a present possession And that's not a statement that lacks humility because there's no personal merit that's involved in that statement

It is fully and completely in the merit of Christ. And therefore I could say as a follower of Christ that Because of what

Jesus did for me I am not only forgiven but cleansed of all my sins and when I die I can go directly to be with Christ because to Be absent from the body is to be present from the

Lord It's that kind of thing and that bears no resemblance to or very little resemblance to what or let's say it's different in key

Areas than what I understand Rome to be saying then and even now I think it bears that I think there are actually close resemblances.

Let me start sort of Parsing out these terms and I'll explain to you why I kind of agree with this view and that you presented and disagree with it

I agree with it in so far as the Catholic view is that That at conversion or regeneration a person is in fact

Cleansed of their original sin and they are a child of God and they are in the kingdom now

Did you catch that cleanse of their original sin? well Coco found it's Sought to and didn't want to let that one get by when you say so cleanse of original sin

But not any subsequent sins would that be fair or clarification? I believe the death of Christ does cleanse those subsequent sins, but those subsequent sins that we commit

We have to confess for now Coco had been very straightforward he had been clear here Does Beckwith just not know the

Protestant position or is he playing games when he says? Well, the death of Christ does cleanse those but they have to be repentant.

In other words Sacramentally, we have to avail ourselves of this grace of Christ to the sacraments of the church

Which is not what Coco has just said so just be straightforward with it.

Just be straight No, I don't believe that any longer and here's why It drives me nuts and people go.

Well, you know, I can sort of agree with this and I could sort of agree with that Nope Speak the truth with clarity folks.

Don't confuse the issue and there in other words It is the death of Christ that in fact does cleanse us

Yeah, eventually, but your one is not cleansed until one goes to confession. Is that right? Or something akin to that You are we're trying to explain this today you are in fact forgiven for all your sins

Christ does cleanse you but part of the process of of when one becomes a

Christian is is The internal workings of God's grace to change one to conform to the image

Yes that I that I agree with and that's what we would call sanctification And that I think that's where the real rub is this that the

Catholic view Includes within justification sanctification. Okay, and One by the way does not have doubts about one's salvation

During while one is a practicing Christian that is It isn't as if and I think you know, you and I Grew up in roughly the same time.

I was went to catechism just like you did and and I think it was presented in a way that was

Inaccurate and part of it is the horrible Catechization that a lot of people underwent during the times right after right and that that may be true

But that that raises other difficulties that we can get to later but but just for clarification then if I is as a

Protestant Christian and Feel that the scripture teaches that my all of my sins are cleansed irrespective of my confession at some future date

Failure to confess some sin according to my view now is not going to change my eternal destiny because I am presently a present a possessor of eternal life and that's

It's true of the Catholic view to and in so far You certainly when

I go to confession, I don't remember every single sin, right? and Not all sins are of the same gravity

So, you know, it isn't as if the Catholic view is that my gosh every day

I'm wondering whether I'm going to lose my salvation or not I've got to live a perfect life actually that is a sign of a lack of faith in God's ability to infuse his grace into you

Yeah, well, it's partly because there's different sins like cardinal sins venial sins and mortal sins and only the mortal sin

Cardinal sins only cardinal virtues. Okay, bro There are cardinals, but they're one of whom live there.

Sorry, there are sins of Cardinals, okay All right but their venial sins and their mortal sins in other words there are sins that you can lose your salvation if you're if you haven't confessed and there are but but see that in itself indicates it seems to me that that salvation then is is

Something that is can is continuously in question That is you don't possess eternal life at the moment

You possess the possibility of having eternal life in the future because you may commit one of those sins

And I remember in the list of mortal sins when I was a kid That could disqualify you from from going to heaven included missing church eating meat on Friday masturbation all you know just Couple just to cite a few these are the kinds of things that if you did them and didn't go to confession or say a sincere act of contrition

That you were then in Jeopardy of going to hellfire isn't is that the way you understand it now?

That's not the way I understand it I mean mortal there are mortal sins and they do separate us from the love of God that but we won't tell you which ones

They are they're just not those separate from the grace of God But those sorts of Those sorts of sins have to be committed with a certain

Intent to them that is it isn't I mean there the church does take into consideration the fact that people can commit sins for example like in a

In a legal case where there could be mitigating sir, right? I understand and I'm with that at all

I'm just trying to go draw a distinction between two different views in which Understand my view that you're the forgiveness is a past act of God in my life and it will never has to be repeated because I have been born again and brought into the kingdom and am currently as a possessor of eternal life and there are many passages that make this very clear and On the

Roman view then I wouldn't have that it's not that kind of thing which is I mean it seems to me which is why

Confession and is important and mortal sins are a factor in the equation and purgatory enters in etc

But you see I I think now I want to Tweak the paradigm here in this sense

I the paradigm it seems to me You're looking at the Roman view as if it were a forensic view that is you're looking at the actions of the individual

Christian as if they somehow count towards or subtract from salvation, but the

Catholic view is not that at all It's that we have a we we walk with Jesus and we allow him the opportunity to change us as we

Cooperate with him throughout our lives, so we the this sort of what you just heard is the modern

American Catholic way of taking the entire elephant of the sacramental system with all of its penances and confessions and masses and and and and works of contrition and and and Final absolutions and and and all that stuff and and putting it under this teeny tiny little napkin marked

I walk with Jesus and and That's how you get it all in there see is that's just all walking with Jesus see and Roman Catholics you know who are older Roman Catholics who've been through this and they remember father

O'Malley are sitting there going That's what that was all about really Wow, that's not what father

O'Malley said, but hey, you know it's it's it's a new day clearly There are people within the

Catholic community who obsess about these things in ways that are unhealthy and I think ultimately sinful

Obsess about them unhealthy and sinful. This is an unordained brand -new convert

Revert sorry Who is who is now telling us? What's sinful? God just got to point that out.

This is not the magisterium speaking so for me the the thing that I found actually the most amazing about the

The view that That I suspect you're defending and I'm not

I don't want to you know Assume something that that's inaccurate But that in fact that Christ righteousness is not infused in me at all that it's just imputed

That is it's a kind of legal fiction Mm -hmm and that to me is is something that I just don't think the scriptures well now immediately

I Have to ask the question had he ever as an evangelical

Written in defense of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ had he ever refuted The blasphemous assertion he just made and I considered a blasphemous assertion.

It is common amongst Roman Catholic apologists, but it is just that That when God imputes the righteousness of Christ, I mean, this is a legal fiction

I mean, I've heard Jerry Madetik say that and Robertson Jenna say that and Patrick Madrid say that and that's where he's gotten this

But when he was a quote -unquote evangelical Did he have a heartfelt? Conviction that the only hope that he had before God was the imputed righteousness of Christ I don't think if that was actually where his heart was at one point that you could so flippantly and so Easily make that kind of statement now without immediately launching into an in -depth defense of your apostasy from it because that's what it is and So at one point

I didn't play the section but at one point talks about what I was one side thinks I'm an apostate Ha ha ha ha and he laughs about it.

Now. I don't know if that was meant about me or not. I have no idea But I'm not sure that he is an apostate on that level because I I'm really struggling to find any meaningful evidence

That this man was anything ever more than a lapsed Catholic who had been in evangelical circles was never

Challenged he still had Rome's view of man Rome's view of grace Rome's view of law natural law the whole nine yards

He was never challenged on those things and gets into his midlife and goes, you know, what I don't go back to Rome I don't if someone would like to provide me with some evidence

That that's not the case Well, then you might have a grounds for saying that someone has committed an act of apostasy, but until you have that clear

Compelling confession of faith. I I don't really see it. That's the that's a really solid ground to to go after personally but if he did

Then I have to ask you if you have a problem with the term apostasy of a problem of the Bible It does no one commit apostasy anymore

Or are we just so postmodern and politically correct we just were embarrassed by biblical cat it's not it's not a legal fiction

It's just what you have not been transformed in actuality into a sinless person

But it is forensic in the sense that God made him who knew no sin to be sent on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in him and so in terms of the forensic or the bookkeeping if you will

God sees me as Jesus because he saw Jesus as me and this is why

Paul can say in Romans 4 For him who does not work But believes in a

God who justifies the ungodly to him. It's reckoned notice reckoned there. That's a bookkeeping term

It's reckoned as righteous I could agree entirely Frank with your comment just earlier that Jesus participates with us and helping us to grow in our actual

Progress of living a sanctified life But that is something I can walk safely with him

Because of the fact that the question of my eternal security the my eternal forgiveness

Has been has been settled and I think this is why Paul makes the point in Romans 5 where he says therefore being justified by grace

We have peace with God Through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have received our introduction into this grace in which we stand

To me, that's a very different message than not only did I get as a youngster But what I've heard since then from everyone except for you just now and making these very very qualified distinctions about faith and justification

Yeah, I mean everyone on the Roman Catholic side. I should say. Yeah now well now that is an exceptionally important statement again

I you know, I applaud Greg Kochel in regards to what he just he just said

That was a clear presentation of justification by grace through faith the nature of that imputed righteousness and all these other things and you're not

Going to get you know much of a response in this particular context And what he's trying to do is is lay out where the differences are

He's trying to lay out these these two these two aspects. I was just noticing someone in channel was asking a question

I know I would like to have answered and that is where did he go to church? Where was he a member? Because I have called and people oh you're just terrible you're just so mean -spirited you're such a nasty man

I had said that I believe that his church should put him under discipline should excommunicate him

What a shocking thing when people oh, you're so mean Who what happened to the

Bible folks? What happened to the Bible what what happened to honoring

God's truth and isn't there such a thing as church discipline if someone Apostle if someone becomes an atheist does your church go?

Well, have a nice day Well, we won't we won't say nothing about that. Is that is that how you do things?

I Mean, come on Well, you don't want to say Rome's. Yeah. Yes, I do. That's you know, looking looking history, by the way

Just in case you caught it Greg misquoted Romans 5 1 it's therefore haven't been justified by faith not justified by grace

But therefore haven't been justified by faith. We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ And of course from my perspective that is the issue that needs to be focused upon is

What is the nature of the peace that that Frank Beckwith claims to have today?

Well, of course James 2 came up and I Clearly do not believe that That Frank Beckwith has looked at anything that I've written on the subject 24 page chapter in the

God who justifies anything like that But here's the the commentary on James 2 there. I believe in them and well, right

I do think though that When Paul talks about us being a new creation all those passages have to be accounted for to as well as those passages that talk about You know, and I know they're

I'm at a site passages that I know their answers to I'm just gonna sort of just lay them out there things where Paul talks about working out

Your salvation if you're in traveling, right? Oh, that means to write the even the the James I found by the way in the

James to the answer to James to Just to be unconvincing Did you read my answer to it or someone else's or I've not read your you need to read my answer to it it's on our it's on the website where a because I do a piece between James 2 and Romans chapter 4 and And I might from what

I've read. I think that I come down on some maybe similar to where Well, maybe you would hear

I don't know and Roman Catholics have said this is a passage that talks about what happens with the genuine Genuinely regenerated person they demonstrate certain things as characteristic of their life and those who just have the word faith attached

Yeah to their their convictions and nothing to demonstrate that it's real We have no good reason to trust that but go ahead and I do think that when you look at the way in which faith

Is presented in Scripture? There is a deeper connection between love and hope and the way in which people

Conduct their lives as a manifestation of that faith. Mm -hmm, and and I do and I do believe that that that sanctification is in fact important in in contributing to How God makes a judgment about us in the answer?

I know there's a there you I think right now We're really at a watershed here because the as I read the scriptures the judgment that God has already

Has is to make about me has already been made and it's been made in virtue of what

Jesus Christ has done You know that we have an advocate in the Father in Christ Jesus And so it is it the the it is the evidence for others eyes

And I think this is pretty clear in James chapter 2 that I have been justified The works that I do is evidence for the others eyes.

It isn't evidence for Christ. I mean in time and the Father Jesus or rather Paul writes in Titus that we have been washed and cleansed not by our works in any sense

But by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit God has done that work in us You know that you've got to understand the

Catholic view when it comes to now I Forget the name of the tactic you call it when you reel off a bunch of Bible verses and the person talking to you can't

Respond. Oh, well, it's Okay. Well, I hope I'm not committing that that would be the that would be the steamroller tactic

Yeah, that's the person who keeps interrupting and and I'm just making the point showing the verse that seemed to support

Yeah point of making but I know it may be difficult to respond to every single verse But at least in part of this like I said clarity not agreement

I think that there are two distinct views that are working here in terms of justification Yeah, and that's part of what

I want to get to and it is and okay I'm sorry, but that was an accusation that hey, you're just throwing out his

Bible verses No, the Bible verses that he's using are expressing his own position and Beckwith has no response because that's not where his faith comes from That's not where his it has not been working through these issues these texts and drawing authority from them that has led him to Rome This is a philosophical paradigm shift for him.

It's not well I Worked through all these things because if you had just finished a number of soul searching months working through those things

You would have responses. You wouldn't be stumbling over yourself trying to remember what verse was which this would be fresh on your mind

I'm sorry, but that When I do debates on these subjects on the subject of justification, let me tell you something

I remember what the verses are. They're going to be coming up And I remember what my my understanding of them are and I have to question whether there has been any

Serious review of these texts or if it's just you read, you know, Jimmy Aiken go. Oh, that sounds good

You know, I'll go with that type of a situation now In what

I have read online from dr Beckwith he kept bringing up the point that in this

January starting January of this year in this reading marathon That Protestant friends suggested he read the

Council of Trent now nowhere does he say and I said them Well, of course, I have read the Council of Trent.

I have theological degrees. I would study these things never says that Instead he talks about how surprised he was when he read the

Council Trent now if he had read the Council of Trent years before Why would you be surprised when you read it again?

Is the idea that well, I I forgot everything it said I Didn't understand a word it ever said is that the idea

I Want you to listen to what Frank Beckwith says here because on the comment thread now

He's saying see you're not even reading me charitably because I clearly had read the

Council of Trent All right now he's saying he had read the Council of Trent before and now he just rereads it in January of this year listen to what he says here and Tell me how someone

Who has read the Council of Trent in the past could say what he says here. Well, go ahead

Frank. Yeah now, you know that There's a number of things that that you know

I've I've had to work through intellectually and spiritually through this entire process and one of the things that You know some of the passages you mentioned

Especially when the term law is used I mean, it's clear to me from reading a number of these passages that when

Paul talks about especially in in certain sections of Romans but not the entirety of Romans that he's talking about the

Mosaic Law and he's actually addressing the question of those Jewish Christians that were requiring

Other Christians to have to go through the Mosaic Law in order to be joined the church That's the sort of thing that I think he's dealing with in those cases now

Kogel's about to say well, don't you see it has a wider application? But by the way, that is such an old

Roman Catholic argument that Go look at even Jonathan Edwards work on justification by faith and even he responds to that I mean how easy is it to go to the

Book of Romans and say okay? You want to limit law that way and so it's not relevant to the law of Rome and to the the sacramental system

What did Paul say for by the law is the knowledge of what? Sin so if it's just the ceremonial stuff

How does that bring about a knowledge of sin? No, this is the very law that shows us that we are sinners

This is God's revelation of our sinfulness, which would be the highest revelation of God's law

How could there be some other law that well, it's okay to fulfill that one plus faith, but it's just not this highest law

I'm just a little interesting here. Here we go. It's counsel. You don't think there's any in a sense Parallel to that even if it's not precisely the

Mosaic law that's in view, but any other system of human works that is placed I think that's absolutely right.

It also could also apply to any human works that are done without the grace of God in other words One is saved a new and by the way, that's

Roman Catholic buzz speak Works done by the grace of God equals sacraments See when you do those works, but you're doing about the grace of God that's what makes it still gracious see and that's how you get around those biblical texts as if the

Judaizers didn't say God's grace is involved But that's another surely that if they wanted to regenerate it initially holy by the work of God in his grace

That is pretty clear. Mm -hmm. And that's the view that's been held From Augustine believe it or not through the

Council of Trent Mm -hmm, if you read the Council of Trent, which by the way really shocked me I was

I I expected to read the this sort of horrible Document, you know requiring people to stick pins in their eyes and you know and flagellate themselves

Oh, and it turns out that there are things in there that that are that are quite amazing That that that that the initial grace is given to us by God In fact, there's a condemnation in there for anyone who says that our works apart from grace

Okay. Well, here's the way I mean, this is so and I thought to myself I had not been told I had been Misinformed right?

Okay. Here's this is an important juncture here for me. Now. Did you hear that? Let me If you read the

Council of Trent, which by the way really shocked me, why would it shock you if you've read it before? How could it shock you if you read it before?

How can that be I don't understand that I Expected to read this sort of horrible document, you know requiring people stick pins in their eyes, you know and flagellate themselves you've read this before and You've you you read that before you had pins sticking in eyes and flagellation when you read the

Council Trent years before and it turns out

How would it turn out if you've read this before that there are things in there that are quite amazing How could be amazing you've read it before?

That the initial grace is given to us by God. Yeah, you know, um, that's basic Roman Catholicism 101

I mean that is just as basic as it comes in fact and here's and People if you have listened to the dividing line at all, you know that starting in at least 1989

I started harping on one thing I started harping on one thing and Everybody we can document this to the hilt

What have I said since at least and maybe before but in my recollection at least?

1989 what have I said? The issue was at the Reformation. What have I said about Protestants today who go?

They read the Council of Trent and they go look The Council of Trent condemns those who think that you can be saved without the grace of God Look Rome talks about the grace of God.

Let's all get together And what have I said? for coming on 20 years now

I've said it so often that as soon as I start saying it some of you will finish it before I do the issue at the

Reformation was never the necessity of grace it was always the sufficiency of grace

You can document that in the fatal flaw 1989 you can document it in the debates that I've done since then and That stands as the issue to this day

So here's someone going There's a condemnation in there for anyone who says that our works apart from grace can save us well really

Okay, now we're at square one now we are at where it's a battle was fought which means you were never at square one

How could you find that fascinating or informative if you had read the work before I?

Mean I thought to myself I had not been told what do you mean told if you read the work before Why would you need to be told?

The very fact that you're using this terminology Makes it very difficult. Oh, no. No I had studied. I've read it before well, then why are you saying?

I had not been told Why would you need to be told if you've read it before I had not been told

I had been misinformed How can you be misinformed when you read it yourself? I'm sorry, but are these not are these not meaningful questions if words have meaning

Then I don't understand the conflict between oh, yes I'd read the council trend before and oh,

I was expecting this horrible document where you stick pins in your eyes What what where do you sorry?

I'm a published author I've written or contributed to over 20 books and no one

Can come to me and go man? That is you are so you have so contradicted yourself. You are so confusing and what you said on this can't do it

You can't do it. Sorry just just not not possible to do so there's there's the Trent quotation right there now here is where Coco smacked it out of the ballpark

But he didn't even really try because it's it's I guess it would be better to say the Beckwith absolutely fumbled the ball

Because here Again, Coco's trying to get to the issue of the gospel.

He's trying to get to how important. This is how definitional this is and listen it

There was nothing in this interview that would even begin To cause me to want to join the

Roman Catholic Church nothing absolutely nothing and If there's anything that should cause you to go

Running out of the room It would be this following exchange, okay?

Well what I meant by psychological inducement is it's one thing to have some feature in the in the church

That is an encouragement for you to do those other things and certainly I wouldn't again say that or take exception with that My in it and some people believe they're going to heaven and that's just a psychological commitment, too

But I'm citing the text that seemed to say clearly that this eternal life is something that I possess now And that is a that and that is the particular thing that I'm putting my trust in in terms of my assurance and not any

Capability I have in the future of kind of working that out in a particular way and certainly no need of subsequent kind of Weekly or temporal forgiveness that I would get from a priest that would keep me qualified for that grace.

Does that make sense? Not really, okay When you when you came back to the church

You you went to confession that's when you did and as I read your piece if I did if I'm not misquoting it

You said you went to confessions to receive receive Absolution of your sins and my thought at that time was was

Frank in virtuous faith in Jesus Christ not already Absolved and cleansed of his sins before he went back to the priest or has he been in a in a state of mortal

Threat this entire time until he went back now Perfect question perfectly valid focused fair No steamrolling

Here's the response or maybe there's some third alternative But were you forgiven before then or not?

before I could go to Look, I don't look only God knows

Look, did you hear that? Only God knows I mean,

I I'm left absolutely speechless that the president of the evangelical theological society

Can make a move like this that is going to impact so many people and when asked a simple

Direct question about the forgiveness of his sins. He's left going. I God knows

There you go, I When I heard that I just about rode right off the the trail

I was riding at the time I I'll play the rest know based on your understanding. I mean just I was

I was Confident that I was a Christian right Lee and and that I was going to heaven, right?

so you accepted the Catholic understanding of the relationship that I have with Christ and The sorts of things that are required of me.

I went to confession and It's not the priest that absolves me of my sins

God that absolves me of no I understand that and I didn't mean to suggest that it was the priest that did that but they but but but but but but a consistent sound

Orthodox Roman Catholic would say but the sacramental means by which God provides the mechanism whereby forgiveness can take place is

Through the sacerdotal priesthood, which is why the priest is called an altar priest who's another

Christ So let's not let's not allow the well, you know, it's God that's doing the absolution.

Yeah but if you have the opportunity of going to the priest and You don't and you don't desire to do so.

Do you get absolution? well, the liberal The liberal

Catholic will say I'm sure because they're ushering everybody into heaven these days, but the historical

Theological statement of the church. What is it? If you have the opportunity to go and receive priestly absolution

Refuse to do so. Will you receive it? That's the question priest was an important step to initiate the absolution that came from God So therefore the absolution wasn't there beforehand and came as a result of from God through the priest to you is my question

Is my was my point or question that it sounds to me. That's what you're saying. I did it I did it out of obedience.

Okay, and it whether God had absolved whether in fact

How God works it out. I'm not I'm not okay and it wasn't meant to be it returning.

I had to do that Yeah, it wasn't and I respect that there wasn't meant to be a trap You just used the word absolution which implied that there wasn't absolution beforehand

Which would be consistent with my understanding of the way that grace works through the Roman system

But would be inconsistent with my understand. There you go. I Well, I did it out of obedience

But I don't really know if that was necessary for the forgiveness of my sins or not

But I was told to do it. So I did it that's what you just heard and Roman Catholics get upset when we point out that many times when we dialogue with old -time

Roman Catholics What is their fallback answer to almost anything because my priest told me?

Oh We've got better answers than that. Well Okay But isn't that what we just heard in essence?

I did it out of obedience I was told to do it and you know, I don't know if it actually absolved me of my sins you know

God's one absolves me of my sins, but you know, I have to do a priest if I'm gonna be a member of the church and there you go, you just So Coco's trying he's really trying to to drag

The the distinctions out and and to let people see where the differences are

So, how do you do that? What was the one debate that we did? That most clearly showed the differences between the two views of justification

It wasn't on justification was it? No, it was the debate with father Peter Stravinsky's on purgatory and Maybe Greg Coco's seen it.

I don't know but he wants to ask a question about purgatory piece of the puzzle here

That seems to tell me much more about the de facto situation of justification in the

Roman Catholic Church Can you explain a purgatory to me as you understand it to be in the Roman system?

Okay theological system I mean can we and I You know, I'm not done with my story yet, but I haven't really told every my entire thought process

Yeah, well part of it is I wanted to be able to get to some of these these kind of theological issues that people are

Raising questions about including me and a lot of the listeners, too So, okay. Let me let me just I'll do it real brief then in terms of the doctrine purgatory first thing you you've got to understand and and I will and I've said this to many people and I think

I may have said This to you last week at at some of ministries when it comes to When one enters a theological tradition

It doesn't mean that one Did you catch that when one enters a theological tradition?

That's not your standard conversion terminology Has the same sort of confidence in every single doctrine?

Okay, that one may fair enough and I think this is probably true of most evangelicals Now did you catch that when you enter into a particular theological tradition

You may not have as much confidence of every particular doctrine. Wait a minute. Excuse me. Um, I don't know

I don't know how many times I've debated sola scriptura now debated it against gerrymatid ticks and and Mitch Pacwa and When I when

I read the surprised by truth books like the first one a whole bunch of those folks all list the same thing as reasons for the conversion which is

They lost confidence in sola scriptura and why they lose confidence because if you have sola scriptura

Then you don't really know see and once you have an infallible agitator now you really know and see and someone can tell you exactly what you need to believe and If you have an infallible church that has defined day feed a by faith

It is a definition of what you must believe to be in association with the

Roman Catholic Church day feed a dogma these Doctrines such as purgatory which has been defined that way then how can you have less confidence in it?

Than anything else. I mean Isn't it a sort of a all -or -nothing situation?

How do you get the right to choose which dogmas to believe didn't the Pope back in? the early 1980s when he came here to the

United States when he was in LA didn't he preach against Cafeteria -style Catholicism where you get to pick and choose which dogmas you like which ones you don't

I Think that's what he did. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's exactly the Hitch there and I think what people are thinking is yes, but Rome makes a different authority claim, which you've been underneath That's right now now now in terms of the doctrine of purgatory perk it is a

Without getting into much detail I mean, there's a there's a lot of people out there who are much more adept at me than me in dealing with this issue

But I will tell you the way I understand it that the purpose of purgatory is ultimately

To rid us of the temporal effects or consequences of sin not the eternal consequences of sin people that Go to purgatory

In fact are people that are destined for heaven. They're on their way, right? Way out. The other thing is that the church is actually quite

Modest about what it claims about purgatory whether it's a place or a state or whether there's even anything

Like temporal sequential of event. Mm -hmm Now I love this because you know clearly he's been reading the good old

American stuff here the the modern sanitized versions of purgatory and This is why

I tried to ask Stravinsky's he didn't want to go for it about the

The Marian blessing where you know wearing the scapular, you know

The promise is given that if you die wearing the scapular that Mary will descend By particular day of the week to take you out of purgatory before the weekend comes type of a situation

How does that work if there's no time and? There's this big building in Rome called st.

Peter's and it was built with this money that people gave for indulgences and those indulgences promised a certain amount of time out of purgatory and the people came and saw relics would get a

Certain amount of time out of purgatory and so all of a sudden, you know The church for hundreds of years made big bucks out of teaching that purgatory was this period of time?

And in fact every vision that you would have of Saints and purgatory would be related to time But now that that's not really popular in the

West now. We don't have to worry about time in purgatory anymore So, you know, it's this wonderful way of just you know

We just ignore our history and just sort of go maybe whoops But we just can't go with an infallible whoops because we're infallible.

So we don't infallibly whoops. See is this how it works at Ratzinger before became Pope actually talked about this in books and so The problem this is that this is the issue that that this is actually faced

This is why you find the doctrine of purgatory very early on in the Christian Church the doctrine of purgatory very early on wrong what you find are

Elements that over time not taught as doctrines but elements that over time come together

To form the doctrine of purgatory. I would love to debate back with on these things He's never gonna do it and I would hope that he wouldn't actually to be honest with you

But it's clear. He's never even listened to debates on this. He's never even listened to the other side He doesn't know the responses that have been offered to these things.

Listen to my debate with Stravinsky's It would be very useful. I think to to look at what refrigerium referred to as something

Clearly what he's done is he's read some of these Roman Catholic apologetics works, but he's never listened to the other side He's not he's not examined the other side the problem with this you had

Christians who were regenerated came to Christ Committed after they became

Christians committed grievous sins were forgiven did penance as a result of not not to absolve their sins, but in order to Discipline themselves so they can become more virtuous people as a result of of their confession

They would die and so the thinking was well How do we account for the fact that one cannot be in the presence of God unless one is?

Holy and one has not achieved holiness in this life. And so the inference is well, there must be a state somewhere between Before heaven in which this sort of thing

Occurs and there are a number of scriptural passages that are it. There's obviously not explicit

But but the assumption is that at least there are principles that are in place from which one could argue

So so basically even though those principles are directly contradictory to this straight didactic teaching concerning the forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ and nature of justification if one

Begins with that understanding of relationship between Grace and justification then the doctrine of purgatory actually makes sense.

This is why for example someone like CS Lewis Annotate the possibility, right? Well, you know, it seems to me the answer to the question that is raised

How could this be is in the scriptures quite clearly that Jesus Christ is the one who has made them those people

Pure and clean, you know your sins and transgressions. I will remember no war now listen to the rest of this exchange very carefully because I Again, I ask you to consider how could someone who truly?

once Confessed and truly believe that the entirety of his standing before God He recognized the justice of God and the punishment of his sins

He recognized his abject poverty before God and that the only hope a person has is the imputed righteous of Christ He's that seamless garment before I in which

I stand before God if a person who truly understood that Could say the things that you're about to hear in this exchange that we have a great high priest over the house of God We can draw near with a sincere heart and full assurance of faith having our hearts

Sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. He who promised is faithful We have

Christ who has done that cleansing for us and therefore there's no need for any place like purgatory Which is why purgatory is never mentioned in the

New Testament. Why does I mean? Why what's the point of sanctification at all then?

Sanctification is developing our souls to be more. What is the point of sanctification?

How could someone who was once Supposed to be a teacher in the church even state that you would automatically know that the answer is well

The scriptures tell us that we are being conformed to the image of Christ and then in Romans chapter 8

We will be glorified with him if what if we suffer with him So there is this process where God glorifies himself by conforming the

Saints to the image of Christ It's all about the glory of God Unless that wasn't his theology then either or like Christ in this life

Why the so when you die though what happens well, I'm not exactly sure but I'm not sure why how does how does why invoke something?

Like purgatory extra biblically when when there's no need to I think what happens is we go to when we see him

We would be like him because we will see him as he is now. It wasn't by the way It wasn't I didn't invent the doctor.

No, I'm talking about Rome here. Not you. Of course not right something that has deep in ancient No, I'm sorry that was

The next section and we're as you can tell we're going along the next section is where Beckwith, you know Complains about sort of feeling like he's been hoodwinked or so that kind of response.

What was that all about? I Mean, well, I didn't invent the the doctrine purgatory as if as if Coco was saying that he was the point was that the

Roman Catholic posits this unbiblical concept of purgatory to answer the question of in essence how sanctification is completed

Because they confound justification sanctification but sanctification the process Deny the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ and therefore this state of sanctification that you reach becomes the ground upon which you're

Acceptable in God's sight that was the fundamental issue of the Reformation Again, the nature of one standing before God roots.

Yes, right And this was actually at the end of the day This kind of leads me to the kind of a segue to two things

I was going to say I had finished saying and that is it Frank we got one minute before the end of this hour Okay, you know, but I think the doctrine of purgatory is like any sort of of Theological term that is used to account for something right and so for example,

I would say the term Trinity Yes, I'm with you on that. I mean the right terms that are not founded.

I'm not just Everybody who knows me Knows that there is one thing the

Roman Catholic apologists do that absolutely makes me livid and it was just done

You take some Roman doctrine That has no meaningful foundation in Scripture at all, whether it be the sacerdotal priesthood purgatory indulgences papal infallibility

Marian dogmas, whatever and You defend it by defaming and blaspheming

God's revelation of himself as triune in Scripture Well Trinity's not found the

Bible. So you don't really need to find a name. It's talked about purgatory as if the overwhelming testimony of inspired

Scripture to the fact there is one true God and Three divine persons that share that one divine name is to be in any way shape or form paralleled with human false doctrines like purgatory

How dare you how dare you?

I Would not want to stand before a holy God someday and explain why in front of all those people

You did that. Oh my How dare anyone do such a thing absolutely incredible not straining at the fact that the word purgatory is not there

But the concept is so central to the whole enterprise you'd expect there would be something like a straightforward Characterization of this as it fits into the description that Rome gives it as it's it's go ahead

So you're assuming though that the only data we get for theology is the Bible Well, I know there is another of course now, but okay

Then that's another discussion that will take up we can take up in the next hour And I I just realized here my original commitment was to let people weigh in here and there you go.

I mean yeah He's exactly right the only way to defend purgatory is to abandon solo scriptura and To open the door to other sources of divine revelation.

That's the only way it can be done and so That's it, and I wish they've been able to get to that But when we gather together we went ten minutes long today

We'll try to even do so on Thursday, but on Thursday. We'll continue reviewing this with dr.

Beckwiths complaint I was just looking for a safe place to share my journey well

Is that is this really about Frank Beckwith It isn't it's not about him.

It's not about you, and I This if you don't see this transcends us you're missing the whole point folks

We'll continue talking about in the next buying line see on Thursday. God. Bye You The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at six oh two nine seven three four six zero two or write us at p .o.

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That's a o m i n Org where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks join us again this