Road Trip DL from Virginia

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Started off with a little ministry report from the G3 Conference and my time in Pennsylvania. Then we talked a little bit about the Master's Seminary controversy, then about the debate from Saturday afternoon, and finished up with a response to Costi Hinn about Doug Wilson and Michael Brown. An hour and twenty minutes.

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00:35
Well, there we go. I have to hit that extra button whenever Richard's doing this greetings and welcome to the divide
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Well, he's always doing this but welcome to the dividing line. Here we are I'm not gonna tell you where It's somewhere between Gettysburg and Conway, Arkansas.
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How's that? Really nice spot nice folks here and a super solid 5g ultra fast connection and So we're very very very thankful that some little kids walking by The Sun will be off my head here in a while so the the glare will will end as the
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Sun is setting here in in the east and So I'm really honestly excited to be with you.
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Let me just explain some people I guess there are some people actually suggesting that I had gone into hiding or something
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Because of criticisms of things I said Actually What happened was
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I I messed up pretty badly And oh by the way, do you see this here
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I I'll forget this if I don't mention this some guys gave this to me in in Loisville It's a little
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Facsimile of p52 and It fits perfectly up here, but you can't see it up there.
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So I I stuck it down here for now I'm not sure how we're gonna get that into the shot there because that's not a good spot.
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But Anyway, thanks for that. I appreciate that guys really do It's it's super cool.
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Anyway What happened was I You can travel long distances in Arizona in a short period of time
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Because we have big wide roads and they're straight and you go really fast on them. Okay and so I'm like 35 minutes from Apologia, but I think
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I'm 35 40 miles probably about 40 miles But you get to get there so much faster because of things called freeways in Pennsylvania Unless it's two spots that happen to be on a freeway
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You Can look at the distance and I I did all my calculations in Arizona thinking or maybe
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Texas thinking or Western thinking That's what it was Pennsylvania is forests hills and Agriculture corn fields everywhere and All those are two two lanes 45 max
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And then you'll always go you got corners and steep hills and turns and then you always have to drive through little towns at 25 miles per hour and So I had sort of figured yeah,
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I'm close enough here there that while I was driving everywhere And unlike this
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KOA the KOA I was at in Gettysburg Basically doesn't have Wi -Fi.
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Oh, okay. It has a free unsecure Wi -Fi signal mice my system wouldn't even hook up to it's like no, that's not scared.
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No, I could play with that and So even the cell coverage there was one bar
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Very minimal we tried Yes, we've we've got satellite capacity
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But it was fully wooded. I mean there wasn't there wasn't enough of the sky available to do anything
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So we were just out of it. I just there was nothing I could do and Chris Arnson, of course had me scheduled pretty much every single night as he always does
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So it I really didn't have any extra time to be trying to sneak something in anyways so this is this looks like it is
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There we go Now it's at least Even I was
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I was wanting to go like this. Okay. So anyway, so no we weren't hiding. I was busy speaking
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Okay, Chris and I did spend one day at the Gettysburg battlefield, but we I spoke that night we we traveled from there and It was it was a lot of fun to do stuff with with Chris again
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But here we are and I just let me very quickly say some quick. Thanks Of course
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Chris Arnson all the stuff that he arranged the debate we will be talking about the debate here in a little while and The other speaking that I did in the general
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Lloydsville Carlisle Harrisburg and to the east general area is is where I was speaking and You know that take took a lot of work before that, of course we were at g3
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I haven't had opportunity to talk about That very much, but I just wanted to thank
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Josh and Virgil and Scott and Kathy Stewart with with sovereign all the guys with g3.
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It was a really wonderful time I Really really enjoyed the opportunity to speaking at the conference
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Extremely encouraged by all the people who came up to me once again And people always come up to me and say
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I know you've heard this a thousand times before and it's it's true. Sometimes I have but to just Realize the unique blessing that we have had over the past number of literally
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Only what 15 years When you really have the web doing what the web is doing right now
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And we don't know how long we're gonna have access to that in the future But just the the ability to have global ministry
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From an RV out in the woods like I am right now. It's just truly amazing.
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It really really is and I'm very very thankful for it. And so to hear the testimonies of people coming to know the
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Lord people being brought out of False faith being encouraged in the true faith
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It's it never really does grow old and so there at g3 We had all sorts of opportunities of talking to people and of course, we had the fun at the
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Museum of the Bible where even though they wouldn't let me do a tour officially we ended up doing that anyways sort of and just a just a grand time with You know the first edition of Erasmus and facsimiles of p75 and p72 and and Vaticanus and and all sorts of stuff like that.
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It was you know, Wycliffe Bible attend Oh Bob It was it was really really really enjoyable to do that there at Museum of the
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Bible So I'm glad I got a chance to see that and to meet all of you there then up to Pennsylvania and Everything everything that took place there the debate on Saturday afternoon like I said, we'll get to that as well and So I also want to thank very much.
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Dr Kyle Daimler who is a member at the the Church of Living Christ in Lloydsville Which was that beautiful facility we had for the debate and then
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I preached there yesterday yesterday morning on the sufficiency of Scripture and And So, dr.
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Daimler put me back together again, I've You know, I I we can't really afford to to pay
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Dr. Weibro to travel with me Separate units and her and her family is that but that wouldn't work really well.
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So It's tough for me when I travel to be away From the best chiropractor in the world.
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I don't know how you all that don't go to chiropractors survive to be honest with you but he saw me last
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Wednesday and then I woke up Sunday morning with a banging headache
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I Theorized it was because I was looking left for like three hours during the debate
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That may have may have triggered something. I don't know, but I just contacted Chris He got hold of dr.
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Daimler and Dr. Daimler grabbed his portable Table and took care of me before service before I preached so I didn't have to fight through all that stuff
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So I very very very thankful for for that. He's an excellent chiropractor and and that's that's great.
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So thanks to everybody did all that People who gave us rides and and when we were in well and a certain
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Person who gave me rides. Let me park my truck at his house and and All that fun stuff that we had going on up there just lots of folks have made all of it worthwhile just one thing to note the
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Panel discussion That we did the second day at g3
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You know, you just get assigned to panel discussions and Sometimes Once in a while, they're interesting most of the time it's sort of same old same old and It just fills time
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I Had no idea what to expect with this one because Virgil Virgil Walker was leading it and then you had me
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And then You had Jenna Ellis who represented
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Grace Community Church in their lawsuit with the state over the shutdown stuff, which they won
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But she's much better known for Representing Donald Trump and I had met her over dinner
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Speakers dinner the night before and I was just I didn't really get into stuff.
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I was just sort of listening from the outside But it was very very interesting and then
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I'm sorry I Just got all set up and stuff like that and Delano Squires, there we go.
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It just the old brain has to you know, sir, sir got an 8088 processor,
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I'm afraid and it just Some of you have no idea what that means But some of us lived with 8088 processors before the
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Pentium came along anyways So as the four of us
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Virgil Delano Jenna and myself I didn't know what to expect It hasn't to my knowledge been posted yet It was fire
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I Mean, I guess that's how you're supposed to describe things. I was fire and use your fire emojis and stuff like that.
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Um Was really good it was we we worked really well together
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It was the first time I had ever been on a Panel discussion where when
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Virgil said we're out of time the audience started chanting
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Go longer go longer go longer. I had never Normally when you get done with the panel discussion, it's like thank you very much.
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Thank you very much We or you could have ended ten minutes ago. We would have been fine That's normally how it goes.
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Not this time. They want us to keep on going and When it gets posted
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I'm gonna make sure everybody knows cuz it was it was It was really good the
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Lord blessed and it was it was really really good So we'll make sure to get that one out there and make sure everybody knows.
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Yeah Did you see this story? It just you know how you'll get notifications thrown up and this is thrown up on top of my zoom thing but about the
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FBI 30 some -odd agents heavily armed agents Busting into a pro -life guys home because of something last year or some
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Person outside of the abortion clinic got in his kids face and he pushed the person
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You know when you when you talk about the left's
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Personal thugs who would ever thought how quickly We could degrade to a level beneath where the
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Soviets were because I mean, this is the KGB These are these are just that would never happen
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To an LGBTQ Activists, it would never happen to a Democrat This is so Obviously politically motivated it is so obvious that it's the people in the regime punishing the people.
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They don't like That I I sent it to Jeff and said well get ready
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Because that's kind of thing that's gonna happen It is amazing the speed at which the fabric of a law and order is being shredded purposefully by the people on the left and We'll see what happens in November about that.
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But yeah, that was a there was a notification that popped up about that Okay, there's a lot of stuff that's happened since last week and Let me let me start off with this
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I mean aside from talking about what we just did We're already 15 minutes in so I obviously have been addressing these things already
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When I made reference to master's seminary And on a webcast a couple months ago
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A Lot of people misunderstood why that would be relevant. I am deeply concerned about a form of neo scholastic ism
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That is manifesting itself in the Reformed world amongst
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Reformed Baptists in particular but also amongst Presbyterians as well and We have obviously spent hours on this program talking about These issues and delving into Dr.
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Carter's book and Reading, you know, we started off providing a response to James dole's all and raising questions and issues related to The issue of biblical authority
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Exegesis natural theology speculative philosophical theology confessions creeds and we went from Truly truly speculative
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Discussions about the relationship and nature of God's attributes ad intra and And Inseparable operations and whether you whether saying
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God accomplishes his will there is no contradiction the Father Son Spirit or perfect unity. That's not enough
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You literally have to say that whatever God does add extra outside of being internal is a
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Trinitarian act leading to confusion about incarnation and Spirit's role and it just Exegetically, it's it's amazing.
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Anyway, it's amazing how you went from that Necessarily and very quickly to the issue of authority and If you push back against the people pushing this neo scholastic ism
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Then you are called a biblicist and that term biblicist is said with a hiss It is a pejorative.
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It is an insult and The whole reason
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I mentioned masters was and every person in this audience knows anything about the school and Is more than 10 years old
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Knows that in 2012 10 years ago if you had spoken to any staff member any professor and master seminary and Asked him if they were a biblicist to a man
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They not only would have said yes but they would have seen that as a compliment and a high compliment at that and so as I have been discussing
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Who is promoting? great tradition exegesis and interpreting the
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Bible in the light of the great tradition and The the whole and I don't like using the term classical theism thing because that's been stolen.
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We're all classical theists again, the open theist came up with the term classical theists and Nobody has any more bona fides in Arguing against open theism than I do
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You could put all of my critics all of them who meet together like they did back around April 19th 20th
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You could put them all together And they haven't done nearly as much In actually engaging with open theists as I have
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But They've stolen that term and so they're using it in a specific way So it's not it's not the classical definition of classical theism.
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It is a much more specific assertion that would include a
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A Elevation of creedal statements and creedal positions elevation in the sense that You are viewing
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Those creedal statements as necessary to the proper interpretation of Scripture itself. And So we've talked about these issues and said hey, there's just there's a lot here that we need to be thinking about and talking about in regards to the relationship
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You know when people freak out when I said the Council of Nicaea is true because what it's taught is in Scripture Not because the
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Council of Nicaea said it So denying that councils in of themselves have inherent authorities separate from the divine revelation of Scripture people freak out
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You're denying Nicaea denying nothing at all. I'm saying what everyone in 2012 would have agreed with me about And so again the whole the whole reason that I mentioned masters is when
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I tell people that people look at me and go Masters, that's actually a compliment
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That's that's a compliment that masters would be so well known for being Biblicist That's a compliment now by the way, there are
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Professors at masters that are not promoting this kind of stuff and are not trying to push this kind of stuff and that's great
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That's wonderful and and I pray for their success but That was the whole point was that if if this stuff can rear its head at masters
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It can go anywhere. There is none of our institutions are Immune and in fact it is in my opinion it is the it's the nature of Graduate Christian education that we have created
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That leads this issue I've bemoaned it many times how many times I said in this program that all
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Christian scholars should have to read 1st Corinthians 1 and 2 You know every six months and be reminded that the wisdom of the world is foolishness
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Because of the tremendous temptation that exists to To Want to see at the table and to imbibe in and embrace a form of Scholasticism that is not properly
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Subjected to the ultimate authority of Scripture and So that was that was the whole point there and the the reference to The Recommendation that had been given to Masters or one of the primary leaders of masters
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By a well -known evangelical there's no one can question that it happened The point was again.
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There's this constant pressure on all of our institutions to be
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Almost ashamed of being biblicist and of course that has become a part of this you know Over and over and over again well you that's just biblicism
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And it said that's against this and that's against and you're against I see and all the rest of guys have Neo -sassinians biblicist that was part of the connection by the way was was right there and so I Understand that it has been decided that the seminary is is going to Specifically take a stand against and oppose
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EFS, and that's that's their that's their choice I do not
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I do not believe in EFS never have But I believe that the best
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I believe is the only Meaningful weighty Refutation of EFS is a biblical one.
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It's an exegetical one If you if you
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If you refute EFS with speculative philosophy
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Then EFS can use speculative philosophy to re -establish its position and The the
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Children of God the sheep of Christ will be Fundamentally Convinced by the voice of Christ in his word
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Not by what pretends to be the voice of Christ through some form of Speculative philosophy and things like that And if you by the way if you would like tremendous example and rich remind me
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I need to When I type up the blog I will forget. There's just this is the kind of thing that just goes in one ear out the other
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So remind me I listened to I've been doing a lot of driving many many hours and many of those hours.
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I was I was Preparing for the debate on the way out here Those were not wasted hours, but I'm glad I'm not gonna have to continue that particular aspect any longer but I I listened to and rich listened to a
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Webcast that dr. James dole's all did well. He was the guest and Not overly surprisingly.
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I mean there seems to be a pattern here I listened for example.
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I played a portion of Carl Truman's comments on that webcast with the two young men who one was
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Catholic one was Orthodox and they were both formally reformed and I played that one section interactive that one section that That you had from Truman and I Listened to this webcast
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James dole's all did with a Roman Catholic Who I guess became a Roman Catholic from being an atheist all on the basis of Philosophy And I don't remember how long ago along it was was that about an hour and a half
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I think Maybe a little bit longer than that. It was fairly lengthy and It was just I mean they're both very very brilliant philosophers but there was exactly one scripture reference even referred to and not exegeted just simply a meaning was assumed yeah, and I already have and That there there was not enough
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Divine revelation in this conversation to You know if you were a thirsty man, and that was water.
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You'd be dead in no time it was It was best example. I've ever heard of surely speculative philosophical
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Chatter And that was its only value to me to be perfectly honest, but that was its only value to me
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I Mean I was listening to what they're saying, but it was just sort of like Man if I had an hour and a half on a webcast
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There are about a hundred and fifty nine Thousand topics that I would find to be far more edifying to an audience than that one
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And I never want listened to wait waste another hour and a half like that again But I'll link to it so you can listen to yourself so you can hear
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What we're talking about you can you can hear it for yourself and I'm just Absolutely convinced that there there is no future for this
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Ninety nine point nine nine percent of people in the church Would listen to five minutes of that and go
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Why am I doing this I don't see its role of edification.
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I don't see that it represents anything the Apostles taught or believed and If we go that direction because we're afraid of being called a biblicist
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That's that's not gonna that's not gonna bode well for the future so I Saw some stuff.
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I have not had I just simply did not have time especially since if I see something while driving Then I'm really can't follow it up on anything until I get where I'm going and stuff like that But I saw some confusion as to why
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I had mentioned Craig Carter and something about the TMS Journal that one episode that one
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Volume of the journal did have a bunch of the major leaders in the neoscholastic movement speaking there
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Writing there, but when I made reference to Craig Carter, I was making reference to his book which
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Specifically promotes the necessity of being a Platonist Christian But you know, that's it's just all there
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So I need to track more of what was said down so I could be a little bit more specific in my responses to that But there's some clarification to start with in regards to why even mentioned masters.
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Well because Because there's been a change and everybody knows it and I'm concerned about the direction of what that change is if it includes any kind of neoscholasticism that would include a concern about quote -unquote businesses
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It just astonishes me that anything like that could ever happen and astonishes everybody else that I've mentioned it to and So that's what that was all about and I'm not sure if that was understood
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By those who took issues with it. Okay, so there's a There's that That's not over with yet.
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But one of those big big big honking units It's trying to get up a hill over there if you can hear something in the background
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And I just I'm 44 feet long. I actually backed out of a gas station a couple hours ago
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I think I would have hit my I think I would have I think I need 13 to rich things
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I only need 13, but it was only 13. So I backed out of it but that thing that baby over there is a whole lot taller than me and a whole lot longer to and Yeah, yeah too much stress it was bad enough today it's very windy today and it was a crosswind
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One thing when it's a headwind another thing was tailwind when it's a crosswind You guys slow down Because you're just magnifying the effect of the wind the faster you're going
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So it made for a little bit longer longer drive than normal. Yeah pulling in right over there I'm not sure if you can nope can't see that there yet, but They're they're pulling it across the way so this is live folks.
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Yeah, it's the real thing. It's nice to be back Okay over the weekend well,
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I mean I'm gonna let's let's the debate Did I expect what happened in the debate now?
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If you've not watched the debate, I guess I should go spoiler alert or something I'm not sure if we've grabbed it yet and Since we delayed the start they started the live stream.
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So there's like 20 minutes of dead air at the beginning. So If you grab the posting that they did you just want to fast -forward past them
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Great man, they you would think that they did debates there regularly because they had everything that the tables were perfect and It's really nice They did a really really great job with all of that stuff
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For those of you who had never heard of the Van Cleek father and son team, they're both
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Peter Van Cleek senior and junior I hadn't until about three weeks ago either and What had happened and in fact the guy that the guy that's sort of responsible for all this who had contacted
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Chris Um, he had been told that Kent Hovind had said
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I would never debate him and So Chris is like would you debate
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Kent Hovind on the King James days? Yeah. Sure. Why not? I mean,
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I've criticized him and so I'll back it up. You bet and so Chris contacted
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Kent Hovind and Bob way too busy for that no can't do that and So Chris starts looking around and once Chris starts looking around Chris is gonna find somebody eventually,
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I mean that's you know, the bloodhound will find something for you to chase and hunt eventually and so he got in touch with Peter Van Cleek and contacted me
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I'm Not sure if If squirrel wants me to do this, but are you listening right now?
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Gene I'll wait Gene if you're if you're actually listening right now. Let me know because I just got a text from from squirrel and I'm wondering if squirrels wife calls him squirrel now that that would probably be a scary thing but Somehow Chris got hold of Yes, okay.
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Hey, it's listening live so you're okay Gene Clyde, everybody knows squirrel.
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He's he's probably the most famous rodent on the internet And he's
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I'm not sure if he's driving right now, but he's heading same place. I am because He's taking the class.
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I'm gonna be teaching He said Van Cleek's explanation of how he arrived the text was the worst word salad
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I've ever heard outside of politics Yeah. Yeah in general, that would be true
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He mentioned during the debate how many minutes of My lectures and stuff he listened to as if that was supposed to mean something
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I purchased four of his books The last one
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Okay, the last one Was well, they're all self -published and the last one
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Was self -published in June of this year So there are very few people that have ever heard of the
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Van Cleek hypothesis But I converted you know,
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I got him on Kindle confirmed mp3 and And invested many hours driving listening to all three volumes and His little book about poking the bear which was without a doubt the worst book
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I had ever read Expressing Radical skepticism about textual criticism.
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I mean he makes Bart Ehrman Sound like like a fundamentalist. It's just it was
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Gail rippling arrest bat Very very plain to me that dr.
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Van Cleek has never done any textual critical work And why would you if you if you believe the
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TR is the autograph? What a waste of time to be doing textual critical studies of Monogamy stay off at John 118.
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You already have the original the rest of it's a waste of time, right? Yeah must be So it was just filled with errors it was horrible that You don't really get to the meat of anything
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Because the first few first volumes philosophical and it's it's reformed epistemology
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It's planting out which planting and never applied this stuff to the text of scripture because he knows it's an obvious category
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Er, we're talking about historical facts historical datum Um It's the third book where you finally get into it and I quoted some of that I didn't quote as much as I would like to have in in the debate, but That's where that's where the substance was anyways, and so, um,
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I Had a feeling which direction was gonna go and I just want to make sure everyone understands
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How dangerous TR only is and is and how that was illustrated by dr.
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Van Cleek's argumentation Because and I point this out a number of times during the debate He kept saying he kept criticizing me for all sorts of things
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Evidently for being old and crusty and almost dead and so I go But he kept criticizing me he's telling you that your belief in the
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Bible should be different than your belief in Any other Christian doctrine now that involves clear
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There's a clear error there again Because when you say belief in the Bible Everyone can tell there is a fundamental difference between believing that God has spoken believing in divine inspiration believing that there is a word from God that has been committed to writing and Determining Recognizing that at Revelation 16 5
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The Texas Receptus that he believes is the autograph has a reading that no one before Beza had ever seen and of course is our
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You know, I I know You raise anything like that to dr. Van Cleek.
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It's like well, we don't know that Um Once you start with a
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TR then you can you can make any argument you want But but there's no manuscript, but it might have been there might there might have been something
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Somewhere at some point in time so any reading at all You can go
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We don't know. I mean just because we have sermons and commentaries and manuscripts and But but it might have been there, you know
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That's the exact Argumentation that Mormons use to defend the Book of Mormon that the Muslims use to defend the
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Quran. It is identical and the door opens
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It's windy outside obviously I didn't get it latched all the way so Make sure yeah, no, no, no, no mad hordes of TR only us outside with with their trinitarian
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Bible Society TRs sharpened to sharp points ready to finish me off Just check look around Anyway But here's again, here's the important part when he said over and over again
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He's telling you your belief in the Bible should be different than his document said yes Determining What the manuscripts read at Ephesians 3 9 is not the same thing as believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ They're not the same kind of belief
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One is a central object of faith. The other is a historical reality Determined by the examination of manuscripts and So when you think about what they were really saying what he was really saying is the belief that the
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TR is the autographs is on the same level of Necessity as the resurrection of Jesus Christ And I think he probably would argue that you really can't know the resurrection of Jesus Christ apart from that Absolutely certain text and that requires you to have the
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TR But when you don't recognize You know, I didn't get into it.
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I wanted to have more time to get into it The I wanted to Point out to him and ask him questions about where for example
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Gregory of Nyssa Gregory Nazianzus Regularly gave readings
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Differently from the they were different with the TR Are they part of the church? Were they were they denying
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God's truth by giving a different reading from the TR and He knows that those are issues that he's supposed to be dealing with and so they've come up with these phrases that really have no meaning canonical iterations
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Canonical iteration they made it up. Nobody has any idea what it means but Those manuscripts were a canonical iteration at that particular point in time
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It's funny he can know what the canonical iteration was of those manuscripts point time But he can't show us TR at any point in time prior to Erasmus interesting, but that confusion of How we have faith in the
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Trinity the deity of Christ the resurrection of Christ the cross atonement and how we determine the readings of Disputed texts conflating those two was one of the clearest demonstrations of the fact that he his system is utterly incoherent and cannot even
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Be considered to be a viable option for anyone who wants to seriously deal with the text description it was
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Truly amazing to hear it. It really was now I And I don't even know honestly if I watch the video if I'll get to see much of this
43:09
Because back when I debated Bart Ehrman people told me afterwards that he was making strange faces and the camera normally wouldn't be on You know if I'm speaking cameras could be on me not on the other guy.
43:20
And so I Had caught a few things during the Erman debate, but I'm told it was much much more intense the the behavior of my opponent who then
43:35
In his closing statement did proclaim himself the winner of the debate and I always
43:42
I always chuckle especially when young men Feel like they have to proclaim themselves the winner of the debate in the closing statement
43:52
That normally tells you the exact opposite Had actually taken place in the course of the debate itself
43:59
But I have seen TR only guys. Oh, that was great. That was wonderful Why can't answer any question and you know for him to say you didn't answer any of my three arguments arguments were absurd
44:11
That's why oh and and then base a
44:18
Bayesian analysis of the probability that the TR is the autograph
44:26
Bayesian analysis requires you to assign a A Level of probability for certain aspects and You know the level of probability that the
44:40
TR reading Ephesians 3 9 is original is about 0 It is 0 for Revelation 16 5 close to 0 for Revelation 14 1
44:50
And there are numerous others That we could do we could look at you put all that together and a serious
44:56
Bayesian analysis would be Extremely small probability but the whole idea of the
45:03
TR is this text just sort of floats around it's It was amazing, but again,
45:09
I'm thankful for having had the opportunity of once again demonstrating that TR only in the
45:17
TR only ISM is Functionally no different than King James only ISM. It really isn't it has the same goal.
45:24
Dr. Word's right about that and it is just as circular and just as incapable of producing a meaningful argument as King James only
45:36
ISM as well, so There's there's that okay Last thing for today
45:44
That will sneak in here over the weekend. Everyone has noticed that there was a
45:53
Another explosion of what I call DW DS Doug Wilson derangement syndrome and It's very obvious to me very obvious to me what launched this one
46:08
Last you know earlier in the week, maybe even a week before you had the was it meet the press meet the depressed
46:19
Did the interview with Doug and talked about Moscow and Seeking to bring a
46:27
Christian culture to that small town and and Doug had owned The interviewer is dead.
46:34
I mean When she says what about gay marriage? Well, no, there wouldn't be a gay marriage even as though it's a law of the land
46:41
Well, you mean like Roe was He had received a lot of good press and And so there are just certain people there is the examining
46:56
Moscow website Twitter people who are anonymous who say they we have multiple ministers that we are accountable to But we can't tell you who they are who we are, but we're accountable, you know, right?
47:12
You know, these are mudslingers that that are absolutely focused upon the past they
47:20
Everything they say has been responded to over and over again and over and over and over and over and over again over the years
47:29
But Then You know, so you're used to that you're there are just certain people
47:39
That if Doug Wilson's name is mentioned that's what you're gonna get you're gonna it's the same old stuff
47:45
Well, there is a child abuse. It's like and so What was different was
47:56
I think it was only yesterday maybe the no no, no, no, no, no, no, it's Friday or Saturday Sorry Friday or Saturday Kosti Hinn Got things rolling by citing a no co -radio episode
48:14
With Mike Abendroth and And You know basically said he's not benign
48:21
We need to be warned about this man and stuff like that. So I'm sorry So I listened to Mike's podcast and he had a guy and I had never heard of before Sounds like a really young guy.
48:32
I've since discovered he's written for or been discussed on The Heidel blog so he's he's with our
48:42
Scott Clark and There is one thing that is Absolutely 1 ,000 % certain the last person who has any credibility in talking about Doug Wilson is our
48:53
Scott Clark The man is the king of Doug Wilson derangement syndrome if Doug if Doug dove into a
49:03
Into a lake and saved a baby at the risk of his own life
49:09
Our Scott Clark could not find anything positive to say he would find some grounds
49:14
For saying that That that was an example of the federal vision. I mean, that's just a fact.
49:21
I mean the large majority of people who have been following this for a period of time at all have recognized that our
49:27
Scott Clark is Utterly imbalanced on this issue not doesn't even try does not even pretend to try his
49:40
Detestation of Doug Wilson and Sadly as a result anyone who would have dinner with Say something positive about Doug Wilson even debate
49:50
Doug Wilson. Um It's just wow. And so as I listened,
49:56
I didn't realize I didn't know the connection to our Scott Clark and Heidel blog as I was listening to the noco radio episode, but I was just sitting there going
50:03
Man, the animus this guy has he's he's judging Doug's heart.
50:09
He's judging his motives He's claiming to know I mean, they're just they're just assuming over and over again and Mike you did it, too
50:16
You did it to Mike. Love you, but you did it, too You're assuming, you know what this man's intentions are and they're all negative
50:25
They're all just just horrible There is no attempt to be fair there's no attempt to be balanced there's no attempt to have another side nothing
50:34
At all and then it got to the end of the episode and Mike says I'm not listened to the interview that he did with James White Which was on what subject again?
50:47
Oh the federal vision And and who debated Doug on whether Roman Catholics are brothers sisters to Christ, which is a related subject in 2000
50:56
That would be me Who's today Doug more than almost anybody else? That would be me Um, yeah, but I'm not gonna listen to where you asked him about the subjects that Are at the heart of all this but I will listen to an acolyte of our
51:14
Scott Clarke So I was really disappointed in Mike and in that in that episode and then so Kosti Hinn's throwing this out along with the
51:26
Examining Moscow people and so there is there is not even a pretense on The part of any of these folks to be fair None, it's just nope.
51:39
We've already made the decision that Wilson is a heretic and a danger and so we don't need to be fair You know, that's like trying to be fair to the
51:48
Pope. No one's fair to the Pope Well, actually I've always tried to be and that's gotten me into trouble
51:55
Because there have been a number of times people misrep they misrepresented John Paul the second they misrepresented Ratzinger They even misrepresented
52:02
Francis. You don't even have to try to misrepresent Francis, but I point out to people You know, that's not really what he was saying.
52:09
No, that's But it's the Pope we don't have to worry about it. Yes, we do.
52:15
We're supposed to be truthful We're supposed to allow the other side to have a say risk But you know, there's something about every side seems right until the other side comes along and ask questions, you know that thing and so So I just basically, you know,
52:28
I felt it was necessary I said to Kosti on Twitter I said brother you're
52:35
You're you're not utilizing sound sources here. You know, you're not being fair and so somehow
52:45
In his response, he brings up Michael Brown And and I'm like Well, here's
52:55
September 24th is two days ago. I Had said to him many apples oranges and pears getting mixed together
53:02
Michael and Doug are very different people and the issues at hand are in very different realms My complaint is the sources you're relying upon anonymous or filled with animus.
53:11
Did you watch my interview with DW? and His response was
53:16
I don't see a date on this one I'm not sure why I think from what Rich said it was this morning, but I don't know
53:22
I Did and respectively I think you lack discernment. He dances with double talk like Bill Johnson I know everything's
53:31
I'm nuts and you're James White, but you're human and Michael Brown somehow missed your scope So what if you are blind to Doug Wilson as a
53:37
Mark Driscoll 2 .0? Okay Rats I was gonna do this
53:48
I was gonna do this, you know Well, I'll tell you what
53:55
I'll do. I I was I was gonna do this, but I will I'll do
54:00
I'll drop a time index YouTube link into the description. Okay, so Not not quite as efficient and effective but since I forgot to queue it up then it's best
54:13
I can do the category errors again here are
54:22
Amazing. First of all Kosti if you think I'll act a sermon then what questions should I have asked?
54:29
Um, I asked him about model covenantalism I asked him about stuff that Norm Shepard had said
54:35
I asked him about stuff that Kosti I was I Was attacking the federal vision when it first came out and I don't think you were in ministry yet so Um, what discernment was
54:50
I missing when he says he dances with double talk like Bill Johnson There is absolutely no
54:57
No comparison. I've read Bill Johnson books. I've read Doug Wilson books
55:03
You are wrong. Not even close. I'm I'm Concerned that someone could even make a comparison to be honest with you as to your discernment to very honestly along those lines
55:16
What double talk what double talk did he did he give be specific Be very very specific as to what double talk
55:24
I didn't catch Because my gut feeling is you know when
55:29
I have my sweater best dialogues with With Doug, for example, we had this sort of this dialogue where we talked about Chesterton Basically when you when you get an opportunity to really sit down with someone
55:49
And what I appreciate about Doug is Doug respects me enough to give Thoughtful answers
56:00
You you and we end up discovering that we're a lot closer and we thought we were and that We're both a little bit closer in the middle
56:09
Then we we thought we had been out here And so be specific
56:15
Tell me why I should think your knowledge of the federal vision material and the fact that I differentiated
56:25
Doug Wilson from Peter Lightheart and others We have blog articles.
56:30
I think which was saying from 2003 Where where I recognize the difference
56:39
Between where where these people were coming from No one today
56:45
Even cares to just that you just throw them all in one big lump one big pile. You don't you don't notice any differences
56:53
I did Because you have to if you're gonna be fair if you're gonna be honest if you're gonna be Christian about it
56:58
I mean we have to have this highest standards along those lines. So you just have to um, there is no connection between Bill Johnson and Doug Wilson and Let me give you another reason why now
57:09
I've never met Bill Johnson So I cannot comment about Almost anything about him but unlike almost all the critics of Doug Wilson, I have met
57:20
Doug Wilson and I have eaten dinner in his home
57:28
I've gone to Sabbath dinner with he and his family. We've sat for hours Just a few months ago.
57:34
We sat for hours during a Sabbath dinner Arguing text criticism because we don't agree on that Though he certainly would not take
57:44
Van Cleek's perspective thankfully, um, I have Had private conversations and in his office a taco time.
57:54
That's the best place in the world to have private conversations taco time. Wonderful and I I've said this on the program.
58:04
I've said this on on Twitter. I Will say this about my friend
58:10
Doug Wilson with whom I Again, I think I don't think he's debated anyone more often than me
58:18
The man first of all is Who he is in every context
58:26
I've never seen and believe me. I've been around a lot of Christian superstars
58:33
Who were one thing on the stage? Something completely different in the green room and very different in other aspects of their life and I don't think that's a good thing.
58:46
Personally. I Certainly strive for that not to be the reality for me And I think most people would would say yeah, you're pretty much you're pretty boring wherever you are.
58:56
It's true Um He is who he is in every situation
59:05
His focus remains the same and All I know is that the people who assume and the the guy on noco radio
59:20
The assumption all the way along was he's lying he has bad motives
59:28
I haven't lived with the man, but I've spent enough time with him and that's not
59:35
Doug Wilson Your animus is misplaced it is false and it's slanderous and Needs to be repented of to be perfectly honest with you because you don't know you're going completely on secondary
59:50
So second third fourth hand sometimes anonymous sources No, it was in a book.
59:56
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. It was in a book Written 20 years ago and everything else spoken on the subject has been ignored, you know,
01:00:03
I Just hope especially for you guys that have been doing all this stuff where you get
01:00:09
People who've been disciplined or something like that and they all get together and they're all angry and they say bad things about Those of you who are ministers
01:00:19
It's gonna happen to you too and When it does
01:00:25
I just hope you remember That you didn't give grace to somebody else. So if you're gonna be asking for grace, you're gonna have to be going
01:00:31
I Need to repent of what I did when I didn't give grace before Because it's real easy to do the slander thing.
01:00:40
It's real easy to do the animus thing Until you're the one who is the object of that slander in that animus that is not deserved
01:00:51
Just just be warned just be aware there are so many times when when things happen in a church and as a minister you can not say anything in your own self -defense because you will
01:01:07
Expose things that would ruin people's lives every minister in the audience knows exactly what
01:01:14
I'm talking about exactly what I'm talking and It's only the people who evidently haven't been in the life of the church enough to have experienced that Who would?
01:01:28
Dare to then join in Stoning somebody else based upon the same stuff
01:01:40
So I Went back to Doug but and Michael Brown somehow missed your scope.
01:01:46
So what if you are blind to Doug Wilson as a Mark Driscoll 2 .0? Again I don't know how anyone can even begin to make a connection to Mark Driscoll and Doug Wilson.
01:01:57
It's That's like confusing me with Kareem Abdul -Jabbar. I mean there is no discernment there at all
01:02:05
Category error on steroids with nuclear radiation and mutations
01:02:13
But The link that I'm going to post I will time index it is
01:02:21
To the debate that Michael Brown and I did with two homosexual ministers Just a couple years ago was that 2018 or 2019?
01:02:31
I think it may have been 2019 Well seems like another lifetime, you know, you could fly places and things like that all pre coded and I will link to the
01:02:47
First rebuttal period and I'll give you the background and there's a reason for it.
01:02:54
Michael and I had were you staying the same hotel and we met in my room and Really?
01:03:01
All we discussed was how we're gonna handle the opening statement. We decided to split it exactly in half and That may gave us each 10 minutes.
01:03:11
And if you watch the debate Nailed it because he and I both have to do stuff where we have to be very honest
01:03:19
Very accurate in time. He has a Nationwide program. So he has a certain thing called a clock that you have to you got to be in and out at certain times
01:03:27
And I've done programs like that anyway That was all we talked about We didn't talk about how we were gonna do anything else
01:03:39
We're just both experienced debaters. And so we didn't really need to and then we had a time of prayer together you watch the debate
01:03:49
The homosexuals gave their presentation and We gave ours and in our rebuttal we remain seated at our table and After the debate was over People literally came up to us and they asked us
01:04:10
Did you all memorize your rebuttal and even
01:04:16
Mike and I? when the debate was over there's a There's a little delay before the rush of people start coming up and want to make comments and take pictures and sign books and do all that kind of stuff and I was putting a sort of putting stuff away and I just I just looked over it
01:04:37
Mike and He looked over at me and I said What happened in that rebuttal period?
01:04:46
And he just shook his head and he said that was a god thing
01:04:54
We were finishing each other's sentences We there was a flow to that rebuttal
01:05:02
I could see why people thought we had pre memorized it because It just it was harmonious and It was utterly unrehearsed utterly undiscussed you simply had two ministers of the gospel both of whom have debated homosexuality and same -sex mirage and everything else for years,
01:05:30
I mean other than Bob Gagnon a few other people. I mean Mike and I have been some of the most some of the earliest and the most vocal People debating this particular subject we have
01:05:45
Both published And so We just wanted to speak
01:05:53
God's truth and we spoke the exact same truth from the Scriptures to those two two people and I can remember them just looking over us like What did we get ourselves into and they they wanted to hear what we had to say?
01:06:09
It was it's really amazing and Similar thing had happened when he and I in 2010 had debated two
01:06:19
Unitarians We were finishing each other's sentences. We were absolutely on the same page and again
01:06:26
No communication before the debate at all It was simply a common commitment to the
01:06:33
Word of God. Now. We have also debated each other and Michael tell you that I sat down across from him at a
01:06:44
We were staying at a resort in Malaga, Spain Before we recorded those
01:06:53
Debates that we did on divine healing on Revelation TV and I Straight up told him that I felt it was
01:07:07
Completely wrong for him to go have gone on with your uncle Benny him And he explained his motivations but he has since then said, you know what in hindsight you're right shouldn't have done it
01:07:24
But I told him straight up because that's what you have to do and You have to take those risks sometimes though It really wasn't a risk because I felt like our relationship was
01:07:39
Strong enough to handle that kind of thing and has to if we're gonna be debating each other on other subjects The point is this
01:07:51
You can You can say what you want But I have seen both of these men in very different contexts faithfully deliver the message of the gospel in the power of the
01:08:10
Holy Spirit now It sounds like a lot of people out there are saying both these men are non -christian heretics,
01:08:22
I mean there's I Know that there are people who say that of both of them and there are probably people a lot of people would say it say
01:08:29
It of both of them There's some who might say of one and not the other and vice versa. I suppose my knowing them personally is not
01:08:43
Does not give me infallibility, but it certainly gives me a big advantage over you a big advantage over you and Especially because I've known both of them in the context of working together with them and in debating against them and in Disagreeing with them and there's almost nobody else
01:09:06
Who can make that claim with those two individuals? So who should we believe the person who has spent hours these individuals and engages individuals and Worked these individuals or somebody reading anonymous stuff on the internet or stuff from people that are so filled with animus that they
01:09:26
They can't speak Coherently when speaking about this person because they have so much
01:09:34
Anger about them. I think the answer is fairly clear And I'll leave that to other people to decide but it's certainly sufficient for me and so I'm going to Stand firm with those folks who are saying to everyone who is currently jumping on the
01:10:00
Well, in fact, I saw just as as we were getting started I saw your
01:10:06
I saw the comments of Kosti Hinn That He should
01:10:11
Doug should run for political office I Just saw your last message and I'm not sure what this is.
01:10:23
So you can hear me, right? Yep. Okay so I have a question here on this subject and on the basis of the fact that it seems that so many who have followed the lead of Doug Wilson Batman and Michael Brown Batman and You say otherwise and they go
01:10:47
Doug Wilson Batman and Michael Brown Batman, and that's that You know for those of us who are extremely dense and Unable to hear your words in your actual intentions
01:11:02
When you say that you dined with them that you've been in their home or Michaels, or I'm sorry
01:11:07
Doug's home Do you broken bread with him? I did my laundry in his house.
01:11:13
We're not talking about some polite I'm gonna just bite my tongue and say what the
01:11:22
You know Things are all real nice, etc. These guys are accusing you of being compromised
01:11:30
These guys are accusing you of looking past all these issues and never bringing any of them up with these men
01:11:38
They are accusing you of I mean, well Kosti's said it directly you lack discernment here
01:11:45
They are saying that you're so close and friendly to these guys that you just can't see the problem and I hear that and in Going on I believe well
01:11:59
No I've been working with you now for 35 years if that's an isn't scary enough all by itself the fact that you hang out with me
01:12:07
But Go for it, buddy. Yeah, there you go but to be extremely frank
01:12:17
You were we were on the cutting edge of federal vision before as you said
01:12:24
I would just want to drive this home before there was such a thing as a blog you were blogging
01:12:29
We were sitting there with a stick and a rock of software Stringing together language on a screen.
01:12:37
It was 800 by 600 and You were going after federal vision tooth and nail
01:12:46
Now what a lot of people don't realize that 2004 debate I organized it
01:12:52
I'm the one that plotted it. I'm the one that put it all together. You guys did the debate but the entire event
01:12:59
I'm the one that even sold the tickets Okay, we I organized it and I remember very clearly you making distinctions in 2004
01:13:13
Look this guy of all the federal vision you made me listen to Steve Schlissel Well, is it is it
01:13:21
James James Baric? Is that his name or what? I?
01:13:26
had to listen to the Schlissel and Baric and I had to listen to all these guys and If you want federal vision as Doug said in the interview with you and the sweaters vest dialogue
01:13:40
I don't know the difference between the the strength of the beers that he was mentioning but you know, what was it stout and Another one wheat
01:13:54
But I presume that meant that you know This guy's a whole lot stronger on it.
01:14:00
And if these guys were honest if they were honest they would go back and they would listen to the stuff that I had to listen to back then and They would find out what federal vision to its core
01:14:13
Really was well know what they would what they would recognize is there has never been a single federal vision
01:14:20
Well, that's true, too But things that they tried to agree on but they never really actually and this is what
01:14:25
I brought out then They never really actually did agree. No. No, they didn't key core issues that was so that goes to the next question and that has to do with something that I Just think it's the most ridiculous accusation platforming the idea that you would go to a conference because so -and -so's on stage too and That means that you must think that so -and -so is okay, and I sit back and go
01:14:54
Why are you why are you demanding that we surrender the ground you go to a conference you've been invited and let's say
01:15:03
It's an eclectic conference. It has got a lot of different guys from a lot of different perspectives and they demand that your perspective be absent
01:15:12
That's crazy Well, and all of it comes down to fundamentally
01:15:19
Forcing people to say are you saying? That Michael Brown or Doug Wilson, whatever the context is
01:15:27
Is an unbeliever and on what grounds on what basis? Well, they're saying worse. They're saying they're not they're not only unbelievers.
01:15:33
They're liars Yeah, they're they're they're deceivers. Yeah, and I'm I'm just too naive to see the the deception and you know, then you then you look at the clarity of their confessions of faith and You just go wow you guys are pretty bold Especially for someone that Look, Doug has been in the lion's den.
01:16:00
Mike has been a lion's den I've been the lion's den. Most of these guys have never been lines.
01:16:05
Yeah. Oh, no There's a lot there lions den is the internet well, like I said, they're sitting in the cheap seats in the nosebleed section and They're talking and pointing at the quarterback going
01:16:17
I could be so much better than you tossing the peanuts down on the field. Yeah, exactly. That's the problem and so Yeah, yeah, but but people need to see and have discernment here that the arguments that are being made boil down to guilt by association and Every step you're not allowed to be seen
01:16:41
Alongside these people Because X Y & Z or so -and -so says
01:16:47
X about them It's not just being seen alongside these people when
01:16:52
I'm on Man Rampant when we're doing the sweater vest dialogues if I'm on line of fire
01:16:58
I'm identifying them as my brother, right? Oh, it's it's You know,
01:17:04
I you have to conclude that I'm an idiot. I'm an idiot or maybe I'm a deceiver, too That's the only place that this kind of stuff can go and it's it's it's sad
01:17:14
I do have a question for you though. Why why is the why is the rich cam not working?
01:17:19
Oh the rich cam Let's see here Just wondered, you know if that's just not something you can do when you're when you're doing that kind of thing or not but don't worry about I just just just just wondering because this voice is just floating wafting across the the airwaves and There you go anyway,
01:17:41
I've gone over my time and You know what? It almost looks like there's snow behind me, doesn't it?
01:17:47
Trust me. It's not That would be that would be that would not be good. I don't want to pull my unit in snow but it is gonna be a beautiful evening here wherever it is
01:17:59
I am and I I Tomorrow is an extra long day.
01:18:05
So I don't know That I'm going to be able to get in in time to To to do another program maybe respond to some of the stuff that will come from this.
01:18:15
I don't know. We'll see But it's gonna be I Extended tomorrow so that Wednesday would be a shorter day and I could
01:18:24
I could get into Conway early enough to attend a staff meeting In essence is what I'm gonna try to do still don't know if I'm gonna make it but we will see
01:18:32
But I am so thankful to have had the opportunity to get this program in and To catch up on a lot of the stuff that had happened and to say thanks to many people that helped make the past two weeks so great and I've got one more intense weekend
01:18:52
Teaching from I think 8 a .m. To 4 p .m. Two days in a row then 8 a .m. To noon on the third day
01:18:57
I think is how the schedule goes And really I'm gonna be going all day long because we're gonna do some stuff in the evening and so it's gonna be a really intensive period of time and then getting home and getting to hug
01:19:14
Little Ransom and Reintroduce him to his grandpa who he's only met once when he was just barely born and that'll be that'll be great and That'll be super so thanks everybody who makes this possible again the reason that we can buy the gas and Do these types of things go to the churches that I went to last week in Pennsylvania some of which are out in Literally the middle of nowhere.
01:19:42
There is no way I could ever get to those places if I was flying Just it just wouldn't happen but because we have this little unit
01:19:53
Then it then it can happen and so you make that possible we appreciate that and Those churches appreciate that as well, too.
01:20:01
So And I'm also appreciative of high quality internet I'd like to encourage all koa's
01:20:09
To obtain high quality in it. That would be that'd be great anyway, thanks for listening to the program today and To to squirrel and to the other students heading to Conway looking forward to breaking bread and teaching history and doing all sorts of fun stuff like that while we're there and That's gonna be an exciting time.