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00:01

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it!

00:08

Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie? Or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional?

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Delusional's okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

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So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me!

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YES! I got it! What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

00:38

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

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Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

00:58

That's a joke, pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

01:08

What is up, guys?

01:27

Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world.

01:33

Hope you guys are having a wonderful time in quarantine globally. Hope you're blessed.

01:40

Hope it's going amazing. Hope you haven't killed one another. That's right, yes. Hope you're staying safe, staying healthy, and all the rest.

01:48

I'm Jeff the Calm of the Ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there. What up? This is the gospel heard around the world.

01:53

Coming at you guys from Apologia Studios. That's A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A studios dot com.

02:01

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02:09

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02:20

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02:26

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02:39

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02:46

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02:52

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03:56

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04:55

You are one of the reasons this is all happening. You're the means in which it takes place.

05:02

So how are you doing, dude? I'm hanging in there. I'm kind of frustrated with just the stupidity of this quarantine stuff.

05:12

It's making it really difficult to get anything done. People are getting quickly to the breaking point I'm seeing. We were like, all right, two weeks, three weeks, yeah.

05:20

Okay, not being able to really go anywhere and do anything. And then also seeing the impact that it's having on our neighbors.

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It's officially over 20 million unemployed are filing for unemployment right now.

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And those numbers, I think those are drastically off because that's not taking into consideration the people that aren't filing for unemployment yet.

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Or they just had their hours cut. And you've got to also take this into consideration. Whatever you think about the issue, there are human beings, image bearers of God that are here right now.

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You also have many people who are here illegally. True. Right? And they have families. They're here.

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Again, this isn't a conversation about whether they should be here. That's not the conversation. It's just image bearers of God that are here who are impacted by this that aren't in that system.

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They're not letting you know. So I think the numbers are much higher than that. And it's going to continue onward. Are you saying that the gas station on Chandler Boulevard has had a lot of men standing up recently?

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That one Circle K that's all the day workers, you know, where you go get the day workers on. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yes. Or not Chandler, sorry, on Arizona. Arizona, yes. Downtown Chandler. Okay, I was like Chandler. Okay, yes. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

06:31

I've gotten messages from friends from particularly across the United States of America, but also globally talking about how they've lost their jobs.

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I got actually a really sad message from somebody that was in Africa that is stuck in their home right now, quarantined.

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They've quarantined the entire building. These people can't get out even to get food right now. They're believers.

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They're really struggling. I mean, just how are we going to get food? I mean, because they're quarantined to the degree that they weren't even allowed out to do that sort of thing.

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So getting access to somebody to go get you food and bring it there. I mean, just tough, tough situations. And you're even seeing things happening right now.

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Michigan, was it Michigan? Huge protest forming. I didn't see that. A lot of people coming in. I believe it was

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Michigan. Maybe somebody on the feed can correct me on that one. So things are starting to take place in terms of people saying, hey, wait a tick.

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The numbers aren't what you said. And we deal with this sort of thing all the time. And we're not destroying the global economy or my family and business to do it.

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And so what gives? People are asking those questions. And we ought to care about those people because they are also our neighbors that we need to love.

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And that, of course, is not ignoring the fact that we have to take this virus seriously and protect one another. But we're encouraging balance.

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Balance perspective, love for neighbor that is going across the board to everybody. So with that, today, a very exciting episode we're doing today.

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Today we are actually going to do some epic debate moments. We're going to play some clips from some epic debate moments.

07:55

And we're going to answer some questions from you guys, our audience. That's what the plan is for today. Some of you guys put questions into Apologia Studios' feed on Facebook.

08:04

If you're not there right now, go like Facebook, Apologia Studios, and make sure, don't like Facebook, like Apologia Studios on Facebook.

08:11

And make sure you guys get in the know as to what's coming up and going on. You got something you want to say?

08:16

I was just going to say, we're getting all manner of questions right now coming in. Oh, everybody's throwing it. All over the board.

08:21

I'm so sorry, guys. Everyone watching on YouTube live right now. We actually asked the questions yesterday. And so there's a ton.

08:27

There's like hundreds, I think, between my thing and then the Apologia Studios. I'll see what I can do.

08:33

Maybe we'll just do this again next time. Let's see here. Here, quickly, tattoos, yes.

08:39

Flat Earth, no. What are your thoughts on tattoos? Well, I don't know. I guess, just for fun,

08:45

I'll answer that one quickly. What are your thoughts on tattoos? Body art that you see right here isn't what's being referred to in the book of Leviticus.

08:53

Oftentimes, people will apply the passage that's seen in the book of Leviticus. And they'll say, cutting or marking your body, that is forbidden.

09:01

And so those are sinful. I just want to say, when you do an historical analysis, which we should always be doing when we're reading the word of God, not taking our current circumstances or perspectives or thoughts and just forcing them into the text and placing them over, that's called eisegesis.

09:19

But when you take an historical analysis of the text, the passage on tattoos, about cutting or marking your body, it's specifically in reference for the dead.

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And there is, well, there is and there was a very pagan practice of ancestor worship.

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And that's cutting or marking your body as a form of ancestor worship. It does still take place in the world today.

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It does. It was, of course, ancient, and it's also, of course, modern. And the cutting or marking your body for the dead that's referred to there is in reference to that sort of pagan cult practice of ancestor worship.

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And when you're looking at things like this today, it has nothing to do with ancestor worship, cutting or marking your body for the ancestors, those sorts of things.

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Really, you do see a lot of warnings in the law of God and the Torah against this kind of syncretism, and that's adopting the practices, the worship practices and the lifestyle practices of the pagan culture around about them.

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But this one specifically is related to ancestor worship and has nothing to do with modern body art.

10:24

And it's interesting, if you look in the book of Revelation, it appears that Jesus in the book of Revelation has a tattoo on his thigh.

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So it's interesting. Yeah, it is interesting. And by the way, not literal. But if it was a sinful thing to have body art, then why is he being described in the book of Revelation as having something on his thigh, a mark on his thigh?

10:43

So what you're saying is we should take the entire book of Revelation literally? Well, no. But the point is, if it's an abomination or sinful thing to have any kind of body art or marking on your body, then why is it described of Jesus in the book of Revelation?

10:58

Again, there's a lot of symbolism going on there, but you don't take a sinful symbol and place it on the body of Jesus.

11:05

So that was at least an answer to what's going on in the chat right now. I encourage you guys, again, to go to apologiastudios .com

11:11

to get more. I wanted to start with this just because I think it's important and it might be helpful for everybody who's just in quarantine right now, especially for our brothers and sisters that are in California right now.

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This is from a day ago. California governor Newsom outlines six steps for reopening the state.

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Now, many of you guys will remember that California was one of those first states that was a fast mover, right?

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Coronavirus, COVID -19, shut down San Francisco. I mean, that was one of the first things

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I saw was Washington, San Francisco. And San Francisco was like, look, what was it, two or three week quarantine?

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It was like shutting the city down, quarantine. It was like, wow, big drastic step there. And then of course, it just started falling like dominoes across the

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United States of America. But California has taken some drastic measures and has a shelter in place order, stay at home order.

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You've seen people who are paddle boarding out in the ocean by themselves being ticketed or cited or arrested for paddle boarding on the ocean.

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That's a significant social distance right there. So, I mean, there's been some drastic measures.

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My concern is for Californians who are struggling with how am

12:26

I going to feed my family right now? That's a normal concern for Californians. It is, right?

12:32

No, I know it's weird because one of the things I was thinking, Luke, was San Francisco is so dang expensive.

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I mean, it's intense. Just go look up some documentary videos or videos on YouTube or wherever you get your video stuff from on San Francisco like rent,

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San Francisco rent prices. People have done like stuff like walkthroughs of their apartment. They're like, hey, I pay $3 ,000 a month or whatever.

12:56

It's a tiny little studio. Is that why there's so much feces on the ground? Yeah, they got the homeless issue in San Francisco.

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Yeah, I guess people be pooping. I guess. Isn't there a poop map?

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It's called SnapCrap. SnapCrap. And it's pretty awesome, actually. I saw a video on it.

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If you find a pile, you mark it. And it goes up on the app. Like San Francisco, right?

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Yeah, and so basically the entire city is just brown. It's got like little brown poop emojis. Oh, no kidding.

13:27

Like the whole city. Wow. It's sad. Well, so with that, so there was already problems to begin with apparently, but now we're being thrust into more problems.

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And so if you guys have been tracking with us over the last couple of weeks, if you listen to the messages we've given at Apology at Church or if you listen to Apology Radio or if you listen to Pastor James on The Dividing Line, you've heard some of what our concerns are.

13:50

And that is just in terms of the impact this has on our neighbors and our children and our future. We need to show consideration and love for those people and those issues as well.

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And so Governor Newsom outlined six steps for reopening the state. And I wanted you guys all to hear that because I think it is actually very interesting.

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We're talking about people who need to eat and work today. And there are six steps, he says, yesterday for reopening.

14:18

The ability to do six things. The most important framework is our capacity to expand our testing, to appropriately address the tracing and tracking of individuals, the isolation and the quarantine of individuals using technology and using a workforce that needs to be trained and an infrastructure that needs to be in place in order to begin the process to transition.

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I'll talk more about that and we'll be more prescriptive in terms of what that looks like.

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The second phase is maintaining our vigilant on protecting the most vulnerable populations in the state of California from infection and spread.

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Primarily our seniors, those with immune order issues and specific strategies and interventions around addressing the needs of our homeless as examples of addressing those vulnerable populations as a top priority.

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Number three is addressing, again, the ongoing needs of our hospital and alternative care delivery system to meet the needs of potential surges as we adopt new strategies, as we...

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Now this is something you see a lot. Isaac, leave that up for a second here so everyone can see that.

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This happens a lot when you see the major media talking about coronavirus and COVID -19.

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They will show numbers like this from John Hopkins updated April 14th, 2020 and it'll show countries with the most cases and you'll see

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United States is leading the world in most cases, 597 ,825 cases of coronavirus and then you're moving your way down to see

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Italy, Germany, France, United Kingdom and all the rest. Well, I'm gonna just speak to that for a second. It's interesting because when you look at this, this number here, you're thinking to myself, oh my goodness, this is serious.

16:16

By the way, it is serious, but this is like catastrophic pandemic. Look, America has the most right now globally but actually when you look at this in the context of the size of your country and numbers of people that it's impacting,

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United States actually would be lower on the list in terms of percentage and mortality and those sorts of things and so I'm amazed at how the national media will play with the numbers in this way by making it look a certain way but when you actually put it in context, you see, oh wait a second, it's not quite the black plague or black death.

16:58

It's not quite what they're trying to demonstrate here. The numbers actually have remained pretty consistent in terms of like the mortality rate of coronavirus like 1 % and lower.

17:09

You're not even taking into consideration the fact that it's demonstratable and it's admitted to that you have people being deemed a death from coronavirus that didn't necessarily die from coronavirus.

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It's just sort of being said, we'll just call that one a coronavirus death. It's like, wait a second, you can't do that because that's going to mess the numbers up.

17:32

Yeah, look at the numbers of heart disease and diabetes and all these other things that normally kill people.

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Why have those numbers plummeted so drastically? Isn't it interesting? Yeah. So you have the fudging of the numbers with people being scored as a coronavirus death who didn't actually die from coronavirus and then you have the fact that many, many people, and this is demonstratable, you can show this, many, many people have pointed out that coronavirus is actually here much earlier than we were suggesting or we understood and a lot of people have had coronavirus or have coronavirus that did not report or are not reporting.

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So in terms of the mortality numbers, when you put all that together, it actually lowers the number in terms of the mortality aspect of this.

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And people might be saying, are you just trying to minimize this? My answer is no, no attempt at minimization at all.

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It's just a question of wisdom for the government. How do you manage a viral crisis in an appropriate way that is not heavy handed and not destructive?

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You don't want the cure to be worse than the disease. Nobody wants that, I suppose. I hope so.

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And so you have to ask the question with real numbers and real wisdom because it's something that Tucker brings up on his interview with the

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New Jersey governor. You've got on record more people dying from the flu.

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Why didn't you take these steps for that? And there's really no answer to that. And it's again, please hear it in categories.

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It's not comparing COVID -19 to the flu and saying it's the flu. It's just saying the numbers of mortality have to be compared.

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You've got to do that aspect because you have people dying from the seasonal flu, by the way, with a vaccine.

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Isn't that interesting? More people dying of the flu with a vaccine available. You've got to compare mortality rates and numbers and put them side by side and say, okay, are we actually handling this appropriately?

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And how do we get people to not starve to death? That's all. So a little bit more from the governor.

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The stay at home orders ultimately and eventually the prospect of increased infections and spreads, we need to make sure that that infrastructure is protected and to make sure that those assets are well -prepared.

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PPE, not just again, the masks and ventilators and gowns and shields, but also making sure that we have a myriad of other protective gear for that workforce and to make sure that we're capable from an

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ICU perspective and hospitalization perspective to meet any additional surges. The fourth frame is to continue the work that we've been doing on a weekly basis.

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And that is to engage academia, to engage our research partners, to engage those that are on the front lines and they happen disproportionately to be here in California, companies like Gilead, companies like Genentech, credible operations of support that are coming from our hospital systems,

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UCs, Stanford, USCs, Scripps and others, including our national labs to make sure that we're really advancing and continue to promote more protocols on therapeutics, which are profoundly important as we bridge ultimately towards the herd immunity and the vaccine within, we hope, the next year or so.

21:07

Sorry, I didn't do the vampire cough there. Sorry, it's not what you think, it's allergies. A year away from a vaccine.

21:18

That's interesting. I've even seen this. That's crazy. Well, I've even seen the talk regarding the vaccine, talking about reopening states when a vaccine is available.

21:27

And you're like, wait, wait, a year from now? Yeah, it's insane. You're talking about like desolation.

21:33

It's gonna be like Mad Max, beyond the Thunderdome. It's gonna be intense. It won't be possible and people won't tolerate it.

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At least in the United States, they won't. I can see riots forming over something like that waiting that long. Number five is the incredible importance of redrawing our floor plans.

21:51

And that is quite literally a responsibility if we are moving into a next phase of our businesses so that we can practice safe physical distancing within the premise of a business, within and around a school site, and facilities large and small, public and private, all throughout the state of California.

22:16

So quite literal strategies, guidelines, and expectations on what physical distancing would look like within those facilities, not just broadly out on the streets, our parks, playgrounds, and in our coastlines.

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And finally, our capacity always to turn on that faucet again and reinstate more vigorous controls.

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And that's just a process that will perhaps be the most challenging if indeed we lean in, but we have to then lean back out as we toggle from stricter to looser interventions back and forth.

22:54

So, a lot there, and just wanted to play that so everyone can kind of hear what is being said in terms of reopening and how things are going to be restructured.

23:03

I just want to point out, I think it's important to point out that one of the things that our government, well, governments in general tend to forget this, well, unless you're a complete

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Marxist society or communist society, they just maybe assume a different direction. But they seem to forget that, like for example,

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United States of America is a constitutional republic system. That's what it's supposed to be, a constitutional republic.

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And so we are not in the United States of America subjects. We are citizens. And we are the ones through industry, through the marketplace, through working and laboring with our hands and creating technologies and businesses and markets and all the rest.

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We are the ones providing the funding and life to the government system.

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And what seems to be forgotten, say, in California and some of these other states, is that there is no government funding without the private sector and the citizens actually producing.

24:06

So there is such a thing as government, right? There is no government without money.

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And money isn't created by the government. Money is created by the citizenry. We create industry, the marketplace, and money.

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And money is supposed to go voluntarily from us to fund a government that is functioning for the purposes of justice and protecting the righteous.

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But they just seem to forget this, that there is no position for governor without the marketplace feeding that.

24:38

So if you choke off the life that funds government, eventually there is no government, unless, of course, it becomes totalitarian and essentially says, well, now you're all subjects and we will own everything.

24:53

And there is no private property. See the difference? You see the difference? And you're seeing the pressure now being applied that could lead to a more communist version of the

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United States of America, right? Because you've got to ask those deep questions because that's a different system altogether. No private property.

25:13

The government owns it. Everything is owned really not by you, but by the government. And they control everything.

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And so they think, well, this is all ours. Nobody owns any private property. But the United States of America was essentially born out of a

25:26

Christian view of reality and life and justice and finances and all the rest and government. And so there's a different view of how government should work.

25:34

And it's supposed to be the citizens that form the government and ultimately really are in charge of this whole thing because it's a government by the people, for the people.

25:46

Do you get it? Big difference. By the people. We form the government, right? By the people, for the people.

25:53

But communism doesn't think that way. But it seems like a lot of these governors are forgetting how all this is supposed to work here.

26:00

Right? It's us that make your job, not you giving us the right to have a job.

26:07

You work for us, my friend. Did you see the Arizona Department of Transportation just finally shut down?

26:15

I was like, thank you. Finally. That's all it took was the Corolla virus. The Corolla virus.

26:20

For the Department of Transportation, a completely unneeded and unnecessary governmental program to shut down.

26:26

So kudos. Kudos on that. All right. I hate everything about the DMV. All right.

26:34

Let's go to this clip. I think it'll really be enlightening.

26:40

Instructive in many ways. Okay. So this is Tucker Carlson. And by the way, just so you know,

26:46

I got to state this because people are going to see this and you sort of load assumptions in. You're seeing two Christians who are quote pro -life and now we're playing a clip from Fox News.

26:56

I just want to make an observation here. I just played a clip from MSNBC. We are not the typical red state conservatives that are sort of like blind followers of the

27:05

Fox News kind of a thing. But Tucker Carlson had a great interview here with the governor of New Jersey.

27:13

New Jersey has an extremely high rate of a tightly compacted population, extremely high rate of COVID -19.

27:22

But I highly encourage everybody, go look at this interview. Just look up Tucker Carlson, New Jersey governor, and it's about 15 minutes in length.

27:31

It's a really good one. And it's very revealing. But Luke and I wanted to play this particular portion for everybody.

27:37

This is the portion where Tucker really challenges the governor of New Jersey on the restrictions around religious worship.

27:46

And I'll let Tucker do the talking here. You guys just check this out. I noted before 15 congregants at a synagogue in New Jersey were arrested and charged for being in a synagogue together.

27:59

Now, the Bill of Rights, as you well know, protects Americans' right and shrines their right to practice their religion as they see fit and to congregate together to assemble peacefully.

28:12

By what authority did you nullify the Bill of Rights in issuing this order? How do you have the power to do that?

28:20

That's above my pay grade, Tucker. So I wasn't thinking of the Bill of Rights when we did this.

28:25

We went to all... First of all, we looked at the data and the science and it says... That was epic.

28:31

I can tell. That was excellent. That was a great moment and very revealing.

28:38

That's the first thing that crossed my mind when I saw that was that's so revealing that you today can get to the position, the role of the governor, what's the ultimate seat in a state, and not know the

28:55

Constitution. How about the Bill of Rights? Can we at least have that? Didn't know it. He's like, well, that's above my pay grade, baby.

29:02

No, that you're supposed to be the expert in that. You're supposed to be the expert in that. You're the governor of a state in this union and it's a constitutional republic.

29:12

We have a Constitution. We have a Bill of Rights. These are inalienable rights. In other words, they're not rights given from the government to the people.

29:20

They're rights that are assumed. They're rights from God. There's transcendence to those rights.

29:26

Here's a governor who's like, it's above my pay grade. Bill of Rights was in my mind when

29:32

I was doing this and Tucker's right. He's like, well, I can tell. That's a problem. This is a real problem.

29:38

That exactly is what your pay grade is. That's what you're supposed to do. I'm wondering, am I wrong on this? No. But isn't there supposed to be, there's a swearing in thing for governors as well.

29:49

I would hope so. The president goes up and swears. Police officers go up and swear. Doesn't the governor of a state also put his hand up and swear?

29:58

Maybe not in New Jersey. Maybe not in Jersey. We've got brothers and sisters in Jersey. You guys maybe let us know.

30:04

As the governor raises his hand and say, I'll protect this thing. I'll uphold it. I'm pretty sure.

30:10

When you go and you enlist in the military, you go into a room and one of the first things you do is raise your hand.

30:18

That's kind of the thing for government and defense is you have to protect that thing. It's above his pay grade.

30:25

The first bill, number one. Amendment one.

30:31

We're not even asking him to get to five. No, just one. Number one. Did you even crack it?

30:37

One. I'll uphold it. Number one. What does that mean? It's above my pay grade. Wasn't thinking about that.

30:43

Well, maybe you should. I think a lot of politicians are going to be losing their jobs after we get through all this.

30:51

Boy, I hope so. Their incompetence is being exposed very quickly. Is that a wrong thing to suggest?

30:57

I don't think so. Is it a wrong thing to suggest that if you are a politician during this time and your actions are in fact unlawful or violate other human beings, that you should actually lose your job?

31:09

I would think so. I think that that's appropriate because that works in any private industry. If you stink at your job, if you fail at your job, if you lose the company money, if you're hurting employees, you get the boots.

31:24

Why does an elected official not have the same standard applied in terms of legislative issues, law?

31:33

It's important to think about. So where are we at in time? Perfect. Commercial time. Look at that. Perfect. This is perfect.

31:38

All right, guys. Exciting stuff we have for you guys. Trust me, you want to stay with us. I'm going to play you a clip in a moment.

31:44

Some will make you laugh and some are going to make you really think hard. I'm going to play a clip of an epic debate moment.

31:49

It's a real short one with Dr. White versus a Hebrew Israelite. Then I'm going to play a clip of Dr. Greg Bonson debating

31:56

R .C. Sproul on apologetic methodology. It's actually, I think, one of the most important parts of their debate. I'll play a clip of that.

32:03

I'll tell you where to get it on YouTube and stuff. And then we have some more stuff. And then we're going to answer questions.

32:09

Very excited about the show today. Stay with us. Quick commercial break. And then we'll be right back. Tell everybody about the show.

32:14

I think you're going to have a lot of fun and you're going to learn a lot on the other side of the break. Be right back. At the

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33:21

Lordship of Jesus Christ over all life and culture. I want their faith to not just be something that stands, but something around which culture can be built.

33:42

We want students who can think critically about arguments, but also about the culture around them, that can then speak clearly to it, and that also have the ability to influence and shape because of the power of their message, because that's really what the gospel does.

33:57

The gospel throws down all the arguments against it. It speaks to the hearts of people. It influences, and it changes.

34:10

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34:24

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36:12

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36:25

Everybody, welcome back. Thank you so much for watching Apologia Radio. Get us at apologiastudios .com,

36:30

A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A studios .com. Go there to get more. Also have an announcement to make, very exciting announcement to make.

36:37

We're making some changes. It's amazing what quarantine will do for you. I mean, we haven't really stopped.

36:43

No, it's actually gotten busier for us. It has gotten busy, but it actually does give you a little space because you're like, well, I can't really go out and do anything myself right now.

36:51

I guess I'll put some more time into this. And we are upgrading Apologia Studios in some pretty significant ways.

37:02

And there's gonna be some announcements made about shows like next week with Jeff Durbin. Very excited.

37:07

You guys will be very excited about what we're gonna announce for that. And just in terms of Apologia Radio, we're gonna kind of go back to our roots in some ways.

37:15

Some of you guys love the old style of Apologia Radio. We did kind of some more fun moments and fun elements on top of some deep theological stuff.

37:24

And so we're gonna be doing that. And the look and the feel itself is gonna be very, very different. So very excited about that.

37:30

And that's one of the blessings of quarantine. So praise God for that. But that's coming very, very soon. All right.

37:36

So we're gonna do epic debate moments here. And let me just get this set. We're gonna do some epic debate moments.

37:42

We'll see what we have time for because we also wanna get to your questions. This is not my video, but this is one of those mic drop videos, like a minute and a half long or so.

37:54

Some of you guys may remember, when was this, two years ago? I don't know how long.

37:59

Time just totally threw me off here. Maybe it was more than that. But Hebrew Israelites somehow got into an engagement with Dr.

38:07

James White. And it was really interesting because I've run into Hebrew Israelites a couple of times, not a lot.

38:13

And it's not my area of expertise. I know some fundamental aspects of Hebrew, the

38:18

Hebrew Israelites, but it's such a splintered movement itself. It's hard to really sort of pin them down.

38:25

But there are some aspects that are sort of pillars to that movement.

38:30

But it wasn't Dr. White's area of expertise either, but he just jumped right into it and talked to one of the leading people.

38:38

And so I encourage you guys all go check that out, Dr. James White, Hebrew Israelites. Go look at the, it was like several days of debates or something.

38:46

It was a lot. Yeah, I don't remember how that worked. It was a lot, but this is one of the moments that was interesting.

38:52

What you'll find with Hebrew Israelites is oftentimes they don't really have any mastery of the language.

38:58

They'll make all kinds of really just wild claims about history that are just in fact false, fallacious.

39:07

They'll make claims about the language itself. And that's really how they kind of get things over on a lot of unsuspecting

39:12

Christians is they'll make claims about languages, Hebrew language and the Greek language even.

39:18

And maybe the Christian also doesn't have a command of the language. And so they sort of just go, I don't know where to go with that.

39:23

But this was an epic moment, I think, of Dr. White in his discussion with one of the

39:29

Hebrew Israelites. And it was in reference to the language issue. And so I want to invite you guys all to check this out and enjoy.

39:37

In Hosea, the second chapter in the 16th verse, and it shall be at that day, say of the most high, that thou shalt call me

39:45

Ishi and shalt call me no more Bailey. When you look at that word Bailey that derives in your strong accordance, you can go there from the word

39:56

Jehovah or the Tetragrammaton. So we began to scribe that name in reference.

40:03

Back then, the Mazarites just continued it. Bailey? Wait, wait, wait. Bailey is from Baal, sir.

40:11

That's from Baal. Sir, you think I don't know Baal? That Bailey is from Baal? You just said it was from the

40:17

Tetragrammaton. Sir, this is what you need to do, okay? Go.

40:23

Do you have your strong concordance? Sir, sir, I don't use strong concordance. I teach Hebrew. I feel so proud of Santa Ria Jaded for the answers for freedom, man

40:33

Cause I love this, this is what I got and all I need I really thought I had to clean up So that's the Thug Life video.

40:39

Instead of going to the video itself, it's just somewhere right there. But the best part of this is, if you watch the interaction here,

40:46

I want you all, I'm going to play it again. I want you to watch Pastor James' face When you know

40:53

Pastor James, he's such a sweet man and he's such a gracious man and consistent man.

40:58

But he cares about the truth, deeply cares about the truth. And he deals with a lot of different debate opponents.

41:04

And he's in a lot of moments like this. But if you watch his face, you can see his mind working.

41:10

Watch his face when these suggestions are being made about the language and just watch how he's trying to be measured. And he finally realizes what the guy is saying.

41:18

I just want you to just pay attention to Pastor James' face. That's all. Here you go. Or the Tetragrammaton.

41:24

So we began to... Wait, let me get back. Sorry. Let me get back. When you look at that word belly, that derives, in your

41:32

Strong Concordance, you can go there, from the word Jehovah or the Tetragrammaton.

41:37

So we began to scribe that name in reference. Back then, the

41:43

Masorettes just continued it. Bailey? Wait, wait, wait. Bailey is from Baal, sir.

41:49

That's from Baal. Sir, you think I don't know Baal? That Bailey is from Baal? You just said it was from the

41:55

Tetragrammaton. Sir, this is what you need to do. Okay? Go.

42:02

You have your Strong Concordance? Sir, sir. I don't use Strong Concordance. I teach Hebrew. I feel so proud of Santa Ria.

42:09

Okay. Just wanted to just see that. I like the dunce cap. That's my favorite part. Yeah, that's the best part. All right.

42:14

So that was an epic debate moment between Dr. James White and the Hebrew Israelites.

42:21

And let me just pull up the next one. This one. I was going to say, that's what we called getting whitewashed.

42:27

Yes. Yeah. Oh, that's right what it was. Right, whitewashed. That's right. What did we have for the other ones? It was whitewashed and Bonson busted.

42:35

Yeah, Bonson busted. Bonson busted, whitewashed. Teach me how to Dougie. Teach me how to Dougie. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Bring it back. Yeah, we'll bring it back.

42:41

There you go. Okay. That's why it's good to have Luke. He has the memory of an elephant. He really does.

42:47

And the stomach. No, he does. Luke's is very valuable because his memory about details is actually pretty excellent.

42:54

So this is an important one because this was when

43:00

I discovered years ago that this had happened, I was elated. I was so grateful.

43:07

And I was surprised as to how many people did not know this debate took place because it's such an important one.

43:13

There was, it seems like it was a small gathering just by the audio itself. I don't know.

43:18

I'm just kind of guessing, but it seems like it was a smaller room. Like I said, just how the audio sounds. But this was a debate over apologetic methodology between Dr.

43:28

Greg Bonson and R .C. Sproul. Now, I love both of these men. We would say both these men are heroes.

43:34

They're giants of the faith. But I believe that Dr. Greg Bonson is one of the greatest, probably the greatest

43:40

Christian philosopher in the history of the Christian church. If you were to ask me, I'd say greatest gift in terms of debater,

43:48

I would say it would be Dr. James White in the history of the church. I don't think anybody in the history of the church has debated globally more people, top representatives from such a variety of different worldviews than Dr.

44:01

White, among almost 200 moderated public debates globally against the best of the best and all these other systems.

44:08

And so he's a great defender of the gospel. So in my mind, and this is my opinion as Pastor Jeff, I think that Dr.

44:14

Greg Bonson is the greatest Christian philosopher in the history of the Christian church and very consistent.

44:21

He's thought these issues through. He was just a great gift and blessing to the Christian church. And at the same time,

44:26

Dr. R .C. Sproul, one of the greatest thinkers and theologians in the history of the Christian church and communicators of theological truths in the history of the

44:36

Christian church. I really believe that. And now this is the two of them going head to head. Now, if you're like, I have no idea what apologetic methodology means and why this is important, it's very important about how you defend the

44:47

Christian faith. So if you believe that defending the Christian faith is important, that it matters, then apologetic methodology ought to matter to you in terms of how do we faithfully, coherently, meaningfully defend the

45:02

Christian faith. It matters a great deal. And so that's what's happening here. Encourage you all to listen to the entirety of the debate.

45:10

It's in two parts right now on YouTube. CMF, Covenant Media Foundation, has owned the rights to this for a long time.

45:18

And a lot of times you couldn't get this stuff free or accessible. You had to go to cmfnow .com to get it.

45:24

But it's at least up right now on YouTube. I'm not sure if they, I hope they got permission for this. But both parts,

45:30

R .C. Sproul versus Greg Bonson, apologetic methodology. This section,

45:35

I believe, was one of the most important sections in terms of the dispute between Dr.

45:43

Bonson and Dr. Sproul over apologetic methodology. It came by way of a question coming from one of the people in the audience.

45:52

Some of the audio is not great, and so you'll have to forgive that. But I encourage you, for your own benefit, fight through the difficulties of something recorded in probably 1992 to get at the heart of this issue of apologetic methodology.

46:09

Here we go, and Isaac, you can show the screen as well. Fresno. Stan, stand up when you ask your questions and tell us your name.

46:17

My name is Greg Fresno. R .C., you recall when I went up to Atlanta and asked a question which

46:22

I think is perhaps not right along those lines of argument, but it has to do with immediate and immediate logic.

46:30

What is your standard for making a decision, thinking God's happening? And I asked you the question that if Satan came up and tempted

46:38

Eve and said, you know, did God tell you? And she looked at the tree and instead of saying, yeah,

46:49

I'll take it, she said, no, I'm getting fat, I better not take it. I asked you that question and you said you'd ponder it.

46:56

I would like to ask the same question, Mr. Bonson, I ask him that question when I return, because I think it deals with the question of on what standard should she have made her reply?

47:09

Now, I did make a mistake then when I said, as far as my communication to you, that she was simply to make just this reply.

47:17

It had to be her reply, but on what standard would that reply be made? So that if she had said, no,

47:24

I'm getting fat, I won't take it, would she have sinned? Now, I know, you know, granted that that's not how it happens, but this is the point of the argument.

47:36

Now, I'd like to also ask Mr. Bonson the same question.

47:50

Well, before she ate the forbidden fruit and was fallen,

47:56

I figure she had the most fantastic figure in the world and she wasn't the least bit worried about getting fat. Okay.

48:03

All right. That's right.

48:11

That's the name of the tune. Greg, I'm not sure

48:18

I understand that question. Did you understand that question?

48:23

Yeah. Could you? Could you help me with it a little bit?

48:30

I'll give you something to shoot at. Okay. Okay. I'll give an answer and then, you know. We'll be all right if he answers it first, so then that may be a clarifier for questions in my mind.

48:38

As I understand it, Greg is asking about the moral foundations of epistemology. You see,

48:44

Eve is confronted with the situation. Satan says, take the fruit. God says, don't take the fruit.

48:50

She's got to make a decision. On what grounds ought she to make the decision? And by grounds here, we mean what rational grounds should she use?

48:58

And by ought, we mean what morally was her duty? And I was searching quickly here.

49:04

I'm afraid the exact address escapes me. But Paul warns, you see, the church at one point, that he doesn't want the church to be deluded by the, how does he put it now exactly?

49:21

As I recall it, something to the effect, with the subtlety with which Eve was led astray. The subtlety with which she was led astray.

49:27

That is, it's not simply that she was led astray, but it's the very subtle reasoning by which she was led astray.

49:34

And what was the subtle reasoning of Satan? Have God said that? That is, he questioned the authority of God's self -attesting word.

49:43

And I would answer as a presuppositionalist, as much as it is the heretical hypothetical, what if Eve would have done this, that, or the other.

49:50

If Eve would have remained pure in the sense that, in the external sense, she did not eat the fruit, but would have done it because she was afraid she'd lose that marvelous figure she was given at creation.

50:03

She would have, in fact, have sinned. Because the question of the fruit wasn't the question of some magical potent or anything like that.

50:10

It was a question of obedience to the lordship of God alone. And in this case, as C .S.

50:15

Lewis has made so very clear, and he's not a presuppositionalist, Lewis says that that command was totally arbitrary on God's part.

50:22

It wasn't because the fruit was poison or anything like that. It was just to see whether she would have an obedient frame of mind.

50:28

And so I'd say if she, in fact, didn't eat the fruit in order to save her figure, she would have then shown that she was using a criteria which was immoral.

50:36

Because the real issue was whether she would be submissive to God's laws and not her own. Boom. You might be wondering, what's that got to do with apologetics?

50:46

Everything. Everything. It's the moral foundations of epistemology.

50:51

I like how Dr. Bonson put that. The moral foundations of epistemology. And if you're like, what is epistemology?

50:57

It's what you're doing every single day, all the time. It's a big fancy word that just means theory of knowledge.

51:02

How do you know what you know? What are you certain about? How are you certain about that? Are you certain about anything? Can you be certain about anything at all?

51:09

For example, if someone says, no, you ought to love your neighbor rather than eat them. That's a moral ought.

51:15

And I said to you, do you know that? And someone's like, yeah, I know that. Are you certain about that? Yeah, I'm pretty certain about that.

51:21

Well, you can ask a Christian that, and they would say, I know that. I'm certain about that.

51:27

The atheist would say, well, maybe in different strokes for different folks, I guess. Like, I don't know. We are all just, you know, bags of stuff in a purposeless universe, so they can't have certainty about it, which is a good way to sort of press on them.

51:39

But from a Christian perspective, when you say that you know that you ought to love your neighbor rather than eat your neighbor, there's a reason how you know that.

51:48

And if I asked you as a Christian, how do you know that you ought to love your neighbor rather than eat them, generally the believer starts going, well, let me show you what

51:56

God says. He says here and here. So there's epistemology. There's your theory of knowledge. It's a revelational epistemology from a

52:03

Christian perspective. God says, and that's how I know. Now, the conflict between apologetic methodologies comes, say, between a transcendental methodology or a methodology that's a revelational epistemology at the bottom versus, say, an evidentialist school or some people might say a classical school of apologetic methodology, which is where Dr.

52:26

Sproul was coming from. And there's a few moments with Sproul here, even Bonson goes, well, everything you just said was pure presuppositionalism, and it was wonderful, where Sproul's reformed.

52:36

So he essentially kind of has to live in both worlds between apologetic methodology.

52:42

So I think he was inconsistent at some points, and it's obvious. But Sproul would essentially try to grant everything that scripture says about the condition of man and his reasoning capabilities and all the rest, but he would say, no, but we can use this criteria over here rather than the self -attesting word of God as the basis.

53:01

We can use human reason and something sort of out here, kind of,

53:07

I'm gonna say it here, but I think in a neutral zone, not resting on the authoritative self -attesting word of God, to get to the existence of God or whatever we're trying to demonstrate.

53:18

The point of that part of the discussion is that Dr. Bonson is demonstrating that there is a moral foundation in that conflict in the garden where God gave a command.

53:32

And here's what we need to consider when we're thinking about the word of God and epistemology and apologetics. God gave a command in the garden.

53:38

And yes, as C .S. Lewis says, it was totally arbitrary. It wasn't like there was something magical about the fruit or evil about the fruit.

53:45

It was just a very rudimentary experience where you've got two naked people and a forest, pretty much, right?

53:52

And so God says this, but not that. It's as simple as that. Nothing magical or crazy about the fruit. It doesn't matter what kind of fruit it was.

53:58

It was, God says this, but not that, right? You do that, you die, right? Now, here's what you need to think about.

54:05

When God said that, what morally ought Eve to have done and on what basis should she have made the decision?

54:14

Should she have made the decision to not eat the fruit on maybe her own internal monologue?

54:19

Like, I don't know, it might taste bad. No, okay, I won't eat it because it's not appealing to me.

54:25

I'm not really hungry right now. Or like they were saying in a joking manner, like, well,

54:31

I shouldn't eat the fruit because I'm getting kind of fat and maybe I'll get fat. So, okay, so she has external obedience, right?

54:39

She didn't eat the fruit, but she actually sinned. Why? And if this is the heretical hypothetical, as Bonson says, she would have sinned because there's a moral element to that self -attesting authoritative word and our response to it.

54:55

There really is a moral element. She wouldn't have been obedient because she wasn't not eating the fruit because God said.

55:03

She had some other criteria over here that she was using as the ultimate standard instead of God's self -attesting revelation.

55:11

And if you're asking, whatever does this have to do with the issue of apologetics, brothers and sisters, everything, everything.

55:19

Because we have to ask the question when we're defending the existence of God or any particular element of the

55:25

Christian worldview, are we defending that on the basis of the self -attesting word of God as the principium or are we defending it on some other grounds?

55:36

If we're defending it upon the other ground, that grounding becomes the reference point instead of the word of God and his revelation as the reference point.

55:48

You see how it kind of works together in terms of apologetic methodology? It's an important question to ask, important issue in front of us and we're running out of time, aren't we?

55:59

Okay, let's go right. So that was two. That was two. Anything you want to add to that? I was just going to say that's why it's called presuppositional apologetics because to have a starting point, you have to presuppose something.

56:12

So a Christian wouldn't say, well, they shouldn't say, well, you can't eat your neighbor because it's gross or you can't eat your neighbor because it would harm them and you have to go further.

56:22

Well, says who? Says who? And so that's obviously how you would press an atheist, for example, but a

56:29

Christian should be pressed the same way. So an evidentialist may say, well, it harms them.

56:36

There's your evidence, but there's more to it than that. Right. And the amazing thing about evidentialists, our evidentialist brothers, is that there's so much of the

56:45

Christian worldview and word of God in them that a lot of times I believe, and I mean this as humbly and as graciously as I could possibly say it, they don't realize that they're actually standing quietly on the

56:56

Christian worldview and God's self -attesting word but trying to argue for it on some other element but they just can't get away from it.

57:04

Yeah. You can't shake it loose. And neither can the atheist. Right. He can't shake his knowledge of God loose either.

57:11

Right. Even though he's not depending upon special revelation, in some cases he is though. Like you have guys like Dan Barker and other atheists who were raised in a

57:21

Christian context that are explicitly saying, well, I really love the love your neighbor as you love yourself kind of stuff.

57:28

And that's explicitly holding onto special revelation, but there's also natural revelation or the revelation from nature that they can't escape in the first place.

57:36

They can't shake God loose anyways. And so big discussion to have, but that's just a flavor. If you're like, man,

57:42

I want to know more about this, then go listen to the debate between Bonson and R .C. Sproul. Go listen to it and then pick up Presuppositional Apologetics by Greg Bonson or Always Ready by Greg Bonson.

57:52

Or both. Or get them both and then get, don't do it first. Please don't do this first. Don't do it first.

57:57

Don't get Van Til's Apologetic Methodology by Greg Bonson before you've read those books as starters.

58:03

Really encourage you to start those other books first in terms of getting the scripture underneath you and then get into the deeper, deeper, more complex thought of that issue.

58:10

Okay, here we go. So everybody now, we had questions coming in to our channel or our page on Facebook.

58:18

And we told you guys we try to get through some questions and answers. I'm going to try to do what I don't normally do and I'm going to do it fast.

58:26

Okay? So I'll try to just give you blips and maybe we'll find time for more at another time.

58:31

But some of these I want you to answer too. All right. Julie, forgive me for not saying your name right,

58:37

Julie Cerniglia, Cerniglia? Beautiful name but I have no idea how to say it.

58:44

She said, here's my question. You guys have changed the format a lot over the years. When will you bring back the silly games and kick back in the beginning, naming movie titles or guessing songs?

58:53

I kind of miss the more laid back episodes. I mean, they're all great but I miss the laughs. You all have a great sense of humor.

58:59

It's coming. Julie, it's coming and hopefully in the next 45 days you're going to see a brand new look and theme and feel and we're going to bring a lot of that back.

59:09

So thank you for that encouragement. We miss it too, to be honest. Yeah. We love that too. Next, Mike, let me go to this one first.

59:19

Matthew Van, these are such tough names, guys. Matthew Van Manen, he says this,

59:26

I'm curious about the nuts and bolts of Apologia Church. As a smaller church, you seem to have a huge impact and engage in the culture with the gospel.

59:35

My question is, what does a regular week at Apologia look like? Do you guys just have regular prayer meetings slash

59:41

Bible studies or do you have a host of additional ministries programs that you guys do? Do you guys dedicate part of the church for work with more internal ministry and then some for outreach or are you guys ruthless in cutting non -essential programs?

59:55

We all know time is limited and I just want to know how Apologia Church as a whole uses their time. Wow, that's a good question.

01:00:03

Well, we don't really have programs so I think and I'm assuming he's asking like church programs.

01:00:11

I guess maybe we have Wednesday reach groups or small groups that meet throughout the valley for families to get together to pray, to worship, to fellowship.

01:00:19

We have a Thursday advanced theological training to raise people up for ministry. It happens

01:00:25

Thursday nights. Tuesday is our youth group. Tuesday we have time for the youth to get together. We're a family integrated church but we do have time for them to get together.

01:00:33

So I guess as far as programs go that would be about it but yeah, I mean a typical week for us is Thursdays is our recording day typically so anything we record we try to cram cram, cram and into one day.

01:00:45

By the way, do you know now that we watch those videos all the time this is way off subject I apologize Pastor James says cram a lot.

01:00:53

He does. He's been watching. He says it a lot. He's been watching. So anyways, so we try to cram all that in on Thursdays.

01:01:00

You know, Sundays are dedicated to church you know, corporate worship and then you know, the rest of the week it's with the body.

01:01:09

It's, you know, counseling. We obviously do a lot of evangelism. Pastor Zach does a lot of that and so basically if we're out on the street we try to have a camera.

01:01:21

So, you know, just how we're able to impact globally through us through a small body of people is just through social media and through the dim internets you know, and so we're doing a lot with a little but yeah, we're constantly constantly busy and our phones are always going off and we're always with our church every day face -to -face on the phone.

01:01:43

Our church body has access to us 24 hours a day. We're with our members constantly.

01:01:49

We're always if we're here at the office and studio we have appointments where we're face -to -face with members.

01:01:56

We're dealing with issues of counseling prayer, encouragement, whatever the case may be taking care of people's needs.

01:02:03

What you see coming out of Apologia Studios is a very very very limited view of what's taking place at Apologia Church.

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Our our first and foremost dedication is to the body of believers at Apologia Church.

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We just try to be very very good about our impact in the public square. We try to use as much technology as we can.

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You're just seeing what we do. We were doing this stuff before there was cameras on us. We were out doing evangelism, hitting the streets, preaching the gospel.

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We just have flipped the cameras on and we share it with all of you and we try to make it in a way that looks really really great and glorifies

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God. So, hope that's a good answer for you, Matthew. Let's see here. This was a good one.

01:02:47

Michael Dionisio. I hope I said that right. He says, have you heard that Bill Gates and his cohorts are pushing for a chip to be put into people's arms that would carry all of the person's information as well as be their means of buying and selling.

01:03:05

A cashless society and a new world order, question mark. Would that mean

01:03:10

Revelation 13, 16 through 18 should be viewed from a futuristic understanding? Michael, that's a fantastic question.

01:03:17

What I would encourage everybody to do is, well, start with our series if you really want to get into Great Tribulation stuff which is where many of the main questions come from in this context.

01:03:29

Start with our series we did on the Great Tribulation. Read the last days according to Jesus. Listen to R .C. Sproul's lectures on the last days according to Jesus.

01:03:36

I think they really bless you all. But in terms of the book of Revelation, again, I'm trying to do this fast. Forgive me everybody for speaking so fast here.

01:03:44

But the book of Revelation I believe was written before the destruction of Jerusalem. I think that could be demonstrated internally, biblically from the text itself.

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The temple is still standing. John's told to go measure it in the book of Revelation. You'd be hard pressed to really believe or defend the fact that that temple is gone.

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It was the central part of their worship. No mention of its destruction but it's still standing and he's told to measure it in the book of Revelation.

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But also the fact that the time indicators in the book of Revelation demonstrate that these things are soon to take place.

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I mean as a matter of fact you read the first chapter of the book of Revelation in the first couple of verses and you're going to see the time indicators right there on the page up front.

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It says the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.

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He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ even to all that he saw.

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Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it for the time is near.

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You also have the fact in verse 7 it says he is coming with the clouds and every eye will see him even those who pierced him and all the tribes of the earth will wail on account of him.

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Tribe. Tribes of the earth, the land. Very Jewish context. Also any of those people that pierced

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Jesus hanging around today? No, they're not. But they were before the destruction of Jerusalem. Keep going through the book of Revelation and you'll see the time indicators very clearly.

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These things are soon to take place. The time is near. And you also see in the book of Revelation context.

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You have two major antagonists in the book of Revelation. You have Jewish antagonism and you have Roman antagonism.

01:05:29

The beast I believe is Rome. Seven -headed, ten -horned beast. Rome is known as the

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Septimontium. It's on the back of their coins. The city of seven hills.

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It had ten imperial provinces. You say, seven -headed, ten -horned beast to a first century

01:05:46

Jewish Christian living under Roman rule. No problems in understanding what's happening there.

01:05:52

Seven -headed, ten -horned beast. But you also have the fact that there's this discussion about those who say they are

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Jews and are not. They lie. They're a synagogue of Satan. Jesus is addressing the

01:06:03

Jewish issue very specifically in the book of Revelation right there. But you also have the clear persecution of the

01:06:10

Jews and the Romans on the Christians. Now, question. When did that take place in history? Well, we know that it took place actually during the 60s of the first century shortly before the fall of Jerusalem.

01:06:21

Not the hippie 60s. Not the hippie 60s. 60s, first century, baby. No numbers before it. The 60s.

01:06:27

And it took place before the fall of Jerusalem. You went from primarily

01:06:33

Jewish persecution of the early Christian church to now you have the Jewish and Roman persecution of the

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Christian church. And who really headed all that up? Well, it was Nero. Emperor Nero.

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And Nero was a beast. He was even described as a beast in early writings.

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He was a disgusting, evil man. Just a couple things if you haven't heard before. Nero was known for amplifying the worship cultists of the first century

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Caligula really got that going in terms of worship of the emperor as God.

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But Nero just sort of like let's do that and made it a real, real thing setting up temples all over for himself and all the rest.

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But Nero was a disgusting man. He apparently was a ginger too. That's what they say. He was what now?

01:07:23

A ginger. A ginger. I think he was. Did you see that picture? That was the ugliest picture. If that's what Nero looked like it's like, ew.

01:07:29

Anyway, so Nero castrated and married a 10 -year -old boy. Nero kicked his pregnant wife to death.

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There is a whole slew of stories in terms of this man's beastly nature. We know that after there was a fire in Rome that attention was now directed towards the

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Christians. Blame is that direction. But you also have the fact that the early Christians are not saying Kaiser Curios.

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They won't do it. They are saying, no, Jesus is Lord. You're the emperor. We'll respect you and honor you and obey you but you're not

01:07:59

Lord. Kaiser Curios we can't say. So Nero would have Christians rounded up in the streets and he'd have them brought to his garden parties and they would tie

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Christians up on these stakes and he would ride his chariot through them in the garden parties where they were wrapped in pitch and set on fire like Roman candles.

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You also have the fact that Nero and if you have little ears maybe turn it down for a second but you should hear this in terms of the beastly nature of Nero the kind of disgusting man he was.

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Nero would have Christians tied to a stake naked and then he would actually wear the skins or the furs of animals lions, bears or what have you and he would actually attack the naked

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Christians that were tied to a stake to eat their bodies or their genitalia. He was a disgusting evil beast and he was part of the persecution of the

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Christians in the first century. So again context revelation if you want to read further on this go read

01:09:01

Dr. Gentry's book Before Jerusalem Fell to see all the historical evidence the biblical evidence to show the early date of the book of Revelation.

01:09:10

However, the context of the Jewish persecution and the Roman persecution and you get into Revelation 13 it's important to note this and I'll just say this as quickly as possible

01:09:20

John, people have said could be accused of plagiarism by today's standards. What's that mean?

01:09:26

Over 400 verses in the book of Revelation over half of those verses are direct quotations or allusions to Old Testament passages.

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So over half the book is taken from the Old Testament and planted into the new and worked out from there and people say well that could be plagiarism in today's standards.

01:09:44

Well, okay. Well that means something though in terms of how you interpret it. You can't go to the book of Revelation with the

01:09:49

Gentile understanding of this world and this book and try to import those things into the text or you're going to have whores drinking blood riding seven -headed ten -horned beasts.

01:10:02

Where's she at? Is she anywhere local to you? I think maybe there's a few of those on Van Buren in Phoenix but I think we get the point.

01:10:10

I don't really think that we're all understanding this oh this is literal. Right. So it's not to say if it's literal it's meaningful if it's symbolic it's not.

01:10:21

No. Listen, the priesthood was a symbol and it was meaningful about Jesus.

01:10:27

The temple was a symbol and it was meaningful about Jesus. The sacrifice was a symbol and it was meaningful about Jesus.

01:10:33

So we can't say oh I really want literal rather than symbolic. No, you get both in the Bible but which book are you in?

01:10:40

Right? Like you got to read Luke and his historical narrative differently than you read the book of Revelation.

01:10:47

I hope you're doing that. So when you look at the book of Revelation you have to understand that John is a Jewish Christian Jewish follower of Jesus enduring persecution from the

01:10:57

Jews and the Romans at this time and then John is in the midst of this this is before the fall of Jerusalem I'm arguing but he gives you this really amazing thing here watch this it says this in verse 5 of chapter 13 and the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words and it was allowed to exercise authority for 42 months the beast is allowed to exercise authority for 42 months it opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God blaspheming his name and his dwelling and that is those who dwell in heaven also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them and authority was given it over every tribe people and language and nation well that could aptly describe in the day of the

01:11:46

Roman Empire the Roman Empire authority over the Roman Empire all those nations all those peoples very very clearly but note this

01:11:54

I think it's powerful 42 months the beast is given authority for 42 months to make war on the saints and to conquer them anybody know the amount of time historically that is allotted for the neurotic persecution of the

01:12:13

Christians in the first century anyone have a guess of how long that took place in history 42 months 42 months now

01:12:21

John says the beast is going to be given 42 months to make war with the saints and we know from history that it was 42 months that Nero did actually make war with the saints 42 months but this is amazing too it says if anyone is to be taken captive to captivity he goes verse 10 of chapter 13 if anyone is to be slain with the sword with the sword must he be slain is this a prediction about the death of Nero well you've got persecution of the saints

01:12:50

Nero did that for 42 months he killed by the sword but then there's this prophecy here about this by the sword he must be slain anybody know how

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Nero died by his own sword by his own sword so listen to this you're a

01:13:05

Christian in the first century you're undergoing intense persecution many people are on the run it's a scary time to be a

01:13:12

Christian to be faithful and you're hearing now John he says hey I got the revelation of Jesus Christ don't worry hang in there soon to take place judgment is coming this beast he's going to persecute for 42 months but he's going to die by the sword that's an encouraging word to early

01:13:28

Christians I would argue very encouraging but here we get into the famous section of the mark of the beast and this is very very important I would say this no

01:13:37

Bill Gates his stupidity and foolishness on many levels and any chip that he wants or chips with data in them in terms of like buying and selling commerce those sorts of things has nothing to do with Revelation 13 and I think

01:13:56

I can demonstrate that to you here if you look through chapter 13 I'm already going long here so I'm going to do my best to go fast just to give you the bullet points here it says in chapter 13 that verse 16 also causes all both small and great both rich and poor both free and slave to be marked on the right hand or the forehead so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark of that has the mark that is the name of the beast or the number of its name of its name its name and it's interesting when you actually know the background of the

01:14:33

Old Testament here I just want to ask you a question okay just pause for a second and be willing to challenge your traditions if you don't agree right now and you're like this seems crazy and all the rest

01:14:41

I just want to encourage you to just stop for a second and think about your tradition and challenge it test it maybe I'm wrong okay so test me challenge this you're reading a book that is almost entirely a quotation and pulling from the

01:14:54

Old Testament and you've got John pulling from Old Testament imagery and allusions and symbolism and he says to Jewish Christians living in the first century he says to them that this beast is going to want a mark on your right hand or your forehead can you tell me anywhere else in the

01:15:13

Bible where that terminology is used about a mark on your head and your hand anybody?

01:15:19

no? it's at the very beginning of Judaism Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4

01:15:28

Shema Yisrael Yahweh Eloheinu Yahweh Echad Hear O Israel The Lord our

01:15:34

God The Lord is One Hear O Israel The Lord our God The Lord is

01:15:40

One but it doesn't end there in Deuteronomy chapter 6 where God says that that famous section that was part of the morning and evening prayers it says and this is powerful and this is so every

01:15:53

Jew knows this my point is here is every Jew knows this he says you should love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul with all your might and these words that I command you today shall be on your heart you shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise you shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as front lists between your eyes you shall write them on the door posts of your house and on your gates so what is supposed to be on the head the forehead and the hand of every follower of God of Yahweh a box with scripture in it yeah exactly do you think that God was literally saying like everyone walk around with this thing bound on your head and your hand like jiggling around all day long is that really what's

01:16:43

God saying there no no the point was is that listen your forehead your head in Jewish thought represented ownership who owns you

01:16:52

Yahweh owns you you're under his authority a sign on your head was not a literal sign some

01:16:59

Jews actually thought it was literal and started doing stuff like that silly right but that's not what God is saying here your head symbolized ownership authority right so having

01:17:08

God's name on your head was I belong to Yahweh I'm his subject I worship him and his mark on your hand your right hand symbolized your work your labor if you didn't have the use of your right hand you were useless because right handed society right minded society right handed minded society so your hand symbolized your labor your work listen what you do so what's the point here love

01:17:36

God with all heart soul and might God's the only God he's the only one he is supposed to be on your head and your hand you're owned by him and everything you do in this world is in him that's what

01:17:50

God is saying all of it when you walk by the way when you raise your children teach put it on your gates

01:17:56

God is the only God and I belong to him and everything I do is in him now you're a Jew in the first century and you know that you're supposed to have

01:18:02

God's name on your head and your hand his mark here and here you're owned by him and everything you do is in him now the beast is saying no no

01:18:12

I want that place of ownership Kaiser Curios right

01:18:17

Kaiser Curios and what was Caesar Nero what was he doing to the early

01:18:23

Christians during the time of the 60's before the destruction of Jerusalem and the war between the Romans and the Jews what was he doing he was cutting off the

01:18:31

Christians ability for life but also their ability to worship in many ways buying and selling here

01:18:38

I would argue is not commerce it's a symbol that's used in the Old Testament actually for worship it's connected to worship if you have questions about that I encourage you guys to get the book

01:18:50

The Beast of Revelation by Dr. Kenneth Gentry I don't have the time to go into all the details here but this is very worship this is soaked in worship language and here's the final summary

01:19:03

I'm not supposed to go this long but I love to talk about this stuff and I think it's important and I guess a lot of people are talking about Bill Gates and Mark and everything so hopefully this will be useful so it says this the beast wants to cause them to be marked on their hand and their head and it says so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark of that Mark that is the name of the beast and the number of his name this calls for wisdom stop okay stop here's now here's an understanding who's the beast you're being told who the beast is we're being told divine revelation here who's the beast it's not a literal mark because listen the mark on the head or the hand of the early

01:19:43

Jews wasn't literal right so how all of a sudden does it become a microchip and literal it wasn't literal for the

01:19:50

Jews it wasn't literal here there's a context to the passage but listen it says this calls for wisdom verse 18 let the one who has understanding alright everyone listen up all my

01:20:01

Jewish brothers and sisters Christians like this is a message now right communicated

01:20:08

I'm going to tell you who I'm talking about okay here it is this calls for wisdom let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast for it is the number of a man and his number is some of you guys just thought 666 no it is not 666 the number is 666 yes it matters so here's

01:20:34

John saying I'll tell you you have wisdom let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast for it's the number of a man a man his number is 666 now the

01:20:48

Romans and the Jews well ancient cultures did this they would use their alphabet and it doubled as a numbering system you already know this like if I tell you right now what's the

01:21:01

X Roman numeral X you would be like that's 10 what's V well that's 5 you know we get how that works right so ancient cultures would use their alphabet as a numbering system as well well the

01:21:13

Jews did that too they did and here's John a Jewish Christian saying let him who has wisdom or understanding calculate the number and his number is 666 well lo and behold what does 666 come out to William Gates Bill Gates what does it come out to in a

01:21:33

Hebrew cryptogram what's it come out to Neron Kaiser Nero Caesar why so John can't in the first century context with the

01:21:43

Neronic persecution of the Christians just come out and say hey everybody I'm talking about Nero I'm talking about Nero he's using very

01:21:50

Jewish symbolism very Jewish language to communicate a message about hope for those early Christians this beast is going to persecute you for 42 months he's going to die by the sword he wants his name his mark on your head and your hand and his number is 666 he's about to be destroyed 666 is

01:22:06

Neron Kaiser and isn't it cool I love this isn't it cool that there's an early translation of the book of Revelation by Christians an early translation of the book of Revelation by Christians into Syriac I think it's my mind is going the

01:22:26

Syriac version I think where for some reason this is weird the early translators of that book of Revelation when they translated into their language oddly they changed the numerical value what would possess a

01:22:40

Christian to mess with God's word like that that's crazy they changed the numerical value in their language to not 666 but to 616 how dare you what are you doing messing with God's word well it is interesting that in their language their cryptogram to get

01:23:02

Nero Caesar to spell out has to have the numerical value of 616 isn't that interesting early

01:23:09

Christians were actually changing in the translation the numerical value so that it could spell

01:23:14

Nero something to think about and if you want more on this read The Beast of Revelation by our friend

01:23:20

Dr. Kenneth Gentry read Before Jerusalem Fell by Dr. Kenneth Gentry he's an expert in these areas can

01:23:28

I go to just one more question I think I know we're going over sure I was just going to say too you can also go to apologiestudios .com

01:23:34

and just in the search bar put in end times and we have a whole manner of hours worth of shows on this subject yeah

01:23:42

I hope that was helpful for everybody alright just quickly Alex Youngren said sorry if this has already been answered what is your scriptural backing for the idea that the dietary laws or holiness code are meant to be done away with coming from a place of curiosity not challenging your knowledge or understanding that's okay

01:23:59

I just understand acknowledge the continuity of the law until proven otherwise to be done away with according to scripture very good that's right so you see in the

01:24:07

New Testament the apostles always assume the continuity of the law and it's just assumed all the way through until they have divine word or revelation to explain how something has changed in the administration or how it's to be applied all the rest encourage you guys to look at two things one listen to my online radio debate discussion with Andy Stanley on this subject on the end of that we talk through this you get more details on that I also did a lecture on the law of God I'm trying to think of the title just look up Jeff Durbin Law of God and I think

01:24:41

I have a full lecture on this particular one but I would just point out the New Testament tells you those things have fallen away for example when

01:24:49

Peter is told to go up and kill and eat and he's talking about that's unclean I can't do that and don't call something unclean that I've called clean well there's explicit word from God about eating unclean animals in terms of now that wall of separation between Jew and Gentile that training wheel of separation is now done away with so the gospel goes forth but further

01:25:10

I would just say the stronger argument is what's stated in Ephesians chapter 2 when it talks about there is neither

01:25:16

Jew nor Gentile male nor female Jew nor Greek we're all one in Christ Jesus the description there is how now the dividing wall between us has been done away with and that specifically has to do with the laws contained in ordinances that is the holiness code law that stuff of course is meant to go away it was just training wheel stuff to teach the

01:25:40

Jews holiness and separation separation from the pagan culture and the unbelieving world they were supposed to live in a way where they were separate it was teaching them holiness but now with Christ and the

01:25:54

Holy Spirit and the new covenants we don't need the training wheels anymore we don't it doesn't mean that those things don't still speak to what

01:26:02

God calls us to holiness and separation it's just that those training wheels are now gone it's explicitly taught

01:26:08

Ephesians chapter 2 let's see here Kyle Smith asks Jeff I've heard your testimony how you thought you were saved but was living a life that makes you think you weren't saved my question is did you get baptized a second time after you knew you were truly saved should a believer who thinks they may have been a false convert be re -baptized

01:26:29

I would argue no and that is because water baptism doesn't justify you save you that is a work of God in regeneration in terms of God brings a person to spiritual life he grants them the gifts of faith and repentance

01:26:48

Philippians chapter 1 29 Ephesians chapter 2 2

01:26:53

Timothy 3 I'm losing the verse here where Paul says the

01:26:59

Lord's servant must be patient when wronged able to teach in humility correcting those who oppose themselves if perhaps

01:27:05

God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth so God does that leading to the knowledge of the truth he brings life to repent and believe and that takes place we would say before baptism consistently and all the time throughout the

01:27:21

New Testament I know our Presbyterian brothers here are going to struggle with hearing this but the pattern you see in the New Testament is people believe and they're baptized you see it in Acts chapter 10

01:27:30

I believe where the apostle Peter is preaching the gospel brings it to the Gentiles they hear they believe and then can anybody forbid water so that these who have received the word like we have can now be baptized they receive the word and then were baptized and so what

01:27:45

I would say is is that baptism is an important part of Christian life

01:27:50

Christian obedience to the ordinance of the church to the sacrament of the church but water baptism

01:27:56

I would say is not salvific in nature in terms of like I know lots of people that were baptized as babies and they're apostates now it didn't save them it didn't grant to them eternal life right

01:28:10

I know that's an important discussion to have this could be a longer discussion today but we would argue no you don't have to get re -baptized say for example you have a person who was at a youth camp they're 14 years old everybody's walking up down the line you know praying the magic prayer and then they got baptized and then they realize when they're 22 years old

01:28:30

I never even understood the gospel I didn't really believe in Christ I would argue trust in what the

01:28:38

Bible says is the source and means of your salvation that's Jesus Christ and faith in Him that's how you are justified before God apart from works eternal life is through faith in Jesus Christ okay now the thief on the cross believed in Jesus never got down for baptism right because it was faith that joined him to Jesus Christ now here's the thing if somebody said

01:29:02

I believe in Jesus but I don't want to get baptized I would say you probably don't really believe in Jesus yeah do you get the difference you probably why don't you want to be identified or be in that have that union with Christ displayed before the world why are you avoiding that probably because you don't truly trust in Jesus Christ because someone who trusts in Jesus Christ wants to get in that water wants to make sure the world sees that I'm joined to Jesus I want this thing but I would not argue that you should get re -baptized

01:29:35

I would actually argue pretty violently against that don't get re -baptized because I don't want you trusting your baptism you need to trust in Christ and if you're thinking well you gotta get re -baptized gotta get re -baptized it's a fake baptism it wasn't real

01:29:50

I would say wait wait wait wait no it's Jesus it's faith in Jesus alone that joins you to him and eternal life is there it's not through this thing now again

01:30:03

I'm gonna say at the end of this if somebody says they believe in Jesus and they don't wanna get baptized my suspicion is maybe you don't really trust in Jesus so yeah because baptism is a public proclamation so if you don't wanna get baptized it's probably because you're afraid or ashamed yeah and that's the whole point of baptism so was this helpful everybody because if it was if you're blessed by it we got a whole lot more questions to get to if you put a question in the feed we're gonna try to get to them alright we're gonna try to get to the questions maybe next week we'll go back to it we'll go through some more

01:30:40

I hope this was a big big help to everybody blessing to hear these things and we're encouraged by all of you guys and you're praying for us blessing us go to Apologia Studios right now sign up for all access be a part of this ministry together with us and if you haven't done so yet go to endabortionnow .com

01:30:58

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