Protestant & Catholic Discussion, 2/19/2019

CARM

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00:02

All right, I started this about a minute early and put the links up so people can check it out.

00:10

Hopefully, it'll work out fine, everything will be fine. And let me just check a couple of settings.

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I'm going to keep talking while I'm doing that because it helps fill the time. There we go.

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That's good. All right, so I'm live on YouTube and also live on StreamYard.

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Now what I have to do is go and put the information on Facebook, the

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CARM Facebook, which I said I would do it a little bit before six. Let's see if I can get that going.

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All right, there we go. All right, now post, there it is.

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Okay, so here we are. Hi, Bill.

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Hi, Terry. How are you? Hello, Jimmy. Decaf coffee.

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That's good. Man, it is. Oh, that's nice. All right, so, well, you know, as you're listening,

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Laura, I think you might find, hopefully, that I'm patient and I try and be loving to the people with whom

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I disagree. And so hopefully that'll happen. People will come in, the

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Catholics will come in, and we can have a discussion. That's what I'm hoping. I'm not against Catholics.

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A lot of Roman Catholics think I hate them. I don't. This is strictly an issue of the gospel and my desire to get that gospel preached and taught to as many people as possible.

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And having studied the cults for 40 years and false doctrines for 40 years, I'm convinced that the

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Roman Catholic Church preaches a false gospel. And so in light of that, here we have this opportunity to have a discussion.

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And I don't know if the Catholics are going to show up. You're welcome to participate.

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In fact, I think Charlie might be in. And so I'll put this here.

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And there we go. So if you want to participate in the speech, you know, by speech, via speech, you click on that link.

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But, you know, as a lot of you are already on the YouTube link, you can go there.

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And I'm not exactly sure how it works on the on the Facebook page,

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I think. Because I'm sending it on Facebook. It should be there as well.

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And let's see. Whoops. I get that out. OK. OK.

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Hold on a second. Do you want me to post the info on your forum or do you want to do that?

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I think it'd be I didn't put your.

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Forum on it. OK, here goes. So I'm going to go into the

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Catholic Forum and get all the information here again.

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Let's see if they participate. And there we go.

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His idea there. I'm blaming him. All right. So now it's on the

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Catholic Church Reformation Debates Forum. Hopefully it'll kick in in a second here.

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Got a lot of things going on and usually takes a minute or two for things to happen. Hey, Andrew. So, Andrew Graham.

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Yeah. Hey, Matt. Hi. How are you doing? Pretty good. Just thought

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I'd jump in and see if I can put in 10 cents worth or whatever it is. OK. Are you

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Catholic or I don't remember. I talked to so many people. I can't remember. I'm Protestant. But I will tell you so far as I know that I need

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God. He doesn't need me. That's how it works. Yep. Yeah, pretty much.

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So if I've got that understanding correct, then I guess I'm a Calvinist. OK. Well, good.

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Here's all the info. Let me do it this way. We're still hope that hopefully this works.

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I just put a bunch of stuff in. I think we'll see what happens.

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Did it go all the way? Yes, it did. All the text worked.

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Good. If people want to put other places, that's fine. So believe it or not, let me tell you what's going on here.

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As you guys know, I'm very much against Roman Catholicism. I consider it to be apostate. It doesn't mean

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I hate Catholics. It doesn't mean I'm going to yell at them. It doesn't mean I'm going to curse them like they do to me. And so I was invited to participate in a very large

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Facebook group run by Catholic.

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And he's the one who suggested I do this. He's a nice guy. He knows,

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I believe, that the gospel of Catholicism is false. He doesn't yell at me, doesn't curse me out.

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He understands that it's a loving thing. And I'm trying to get across. And so a few days ago,

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I remoted into his computer. There's a safe way to do it. And I helped him do some stuff.

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And, you know, no big deal. And so he said, hey, why don't you come on in and see if you can do a

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Q &A. Now, I've offered this before on that forum.

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And the Catholics don't show up. They say all kinds of stuff. They want to debate me.

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They want to correct me. They want to, oh, fine, let's have a discussion. And then they don't show up. And then they complain about it.

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Oh, I'm not going to go where you're in control. Well, you know what? Have, I don't care, have the

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Catholic Robert Sledge guy do it. I don't care. He can be in control.

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It doesn't bother me any. I'll answer questions. But anyway, so he asked if I would do this.

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I said, yeah. One of the other things he actually asked me to do was to get on and do a discussion where I would defend

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Calvinism. The Roman Catholics really don't like Calvinism. And something I find over the years

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I think is interesting is that cults and Catholics do not like Calvinism.

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And I think I know why. Because it takes salvation out of their hands and puts it in God's hands.

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That's what I think. What do you think, Andrew? I know you're muted, but what do you think? Yeah, I just read it because the background noise is never going to get on again.

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Sure. Yeah. What do I think? Well, yeah,

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I hesitate to lump them in the same categories as JWs and Mormons and the usual suspects, shall we say.

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But I definitely, definitely agree that it is full of at least alarm bells for me to stay out of it.

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I'll try and list them. I think my major case, they've given me the evidence recently, is the way they title their books.

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So one of the latest ones I know of is the book titled The Bible is a

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Catholic Book. Yeah. These type of things. Yeah.

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And the other claims that they like to make is they are the first pure Christians. Yeah. Well, you know,

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I've written. I have massive issues with that. Oh, I do, too. They gave us the

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Bible. They're the author of the Bible. They're taking credit for what God did. And I ask them, did they give us the

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Old Testament? Well, no, but we're the ones who decided that it was part of the canon. No, it was already part of the canon.

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They already recognized. The Jews are the ones who recognized that. It wasn't the Catholics that did that.

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Yeah, and they left one and two Maccabean out, and they put the apography in. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

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Yeah. Bill Chibberis. I hope I pronounce his name sufficiently well.

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Yeah, he's in close enough. How do you pronounce your name? Hey, you know,

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I'm better. I'm here. So, Matt, I can hardly hear you.

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Sure. If the Romans, if you think Catholicism is apostate, were they once a

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Christian, or how would I know what I'm saying? Well, see, how

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I look at it is in part out of ignorance, because I don't know the history of how the

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Roman Catholic Church got its start. But when the first church began, it was the

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Christian church, and it was written about in the Book of Acts. That's the early church. That's the earliest of church.

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That's where we see Christian truth. We see it in the Ephesians. We see it in the Galatian church.

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We see it in Colossae. We see it in these areas. Well, they were persecuted because the

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Roman Empire was against Christianity for a long time. Nero was killing Christians in the 60s.

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And so Christians were fleeing to the hills. All right. Well, there is no real ecclesiastical organized structure at this point, because a lot of people are fleeing.

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Now, there's different churches. There's different places. And this is where I need to study more or have a historian teach me, say, yeah, this area of geography, they were pretty free.

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This one over here, they were not. Overall, they were persecuted this way. They kind of kept their head down low, that kind of thing, because in that kind of a context, you don't find the official church.

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And so he was killing a lot of people, basically, Daniel. Nero would light the

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Christians on fire for his orgies and stuff like that. Go on post. But at any rate, so when

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Christianity started taking over, becoming popular, then they could start having councils.

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Well, what I understood was in the issue of the Donatist issue, the

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Donatist issue was there was a persecution going on, and certain Christians gave sacred documents over to the unbelievers, who then destroyed them.

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And then when the persecution ended, the Christians repented, should they be allowed back into fellowship with the church.

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And so the Donatist discussion came, and bishops gathered, presbyters gathered, and they discussed these things.

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That's what I see as being the real beginning of the Roman Catholic Church, in that it had an ecclesiastical organization at that point.

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Now, that's just my opinion. I'm not going to die in that hill. And so from then on, now what

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I need to find out is what doctrines came into the Catholic Church at what point.

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And the one that would convince it for me is that when apostate is definitely the issue of works righteousness, where they would say that salvation is by grace through faith and works and things like this.

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That would mean it's apostate. Whenever that became official, that would be a designation of apostasy.

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I think another one of their apostasy that would designate it would be the issue of raising

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Mary to the level of a semi -goddess. And so this is an apostate thing because it's going against the scripture of elevating a creature.

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And that's just clear. So one of those or both of those would be historical markers for when the

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Roman Catholic Church and its official ecclesiastical slash political combination decided to include those things.

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And that for me would convince me that that's when it became apostate. So I don't look at the Roman Catholic Church as being the true church.

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The true church is comprised of the believers. Those who are indwelled by God. Second Corinthians 616,

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First Corinthians 316, Philippians, I mean, John 1423. These are the things that make us born again.

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You know, the presence of God indwelling us. We're made new creatures. Second Corinthians 517. And so this is not the issue of the true church.

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And so I think the Catholics just miss so much when they fail to see what the true issues are.

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Anyway, you asked me that question. It's a long answer. Has the Mary dogmas came in the 1950s?

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Oh, no, there's more. More than that. Yeah. It was way earlier than that.

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The Marian dogmas. Let's see. Let's see. I don't know. I can just type this in.

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Chronology of Marian doctrines. Let's see.

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And I could do some research, write an article on this as well. So. Rome depicts

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Mary as protector, protectrix, but the departed of the advocate. So that's the 100 to 206.

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An inscription says that in his letters, Ignatius of Antioch makes five references to Mary as virgin and mother.

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And, you know, it'd be worth to go through these and go through them, take a few days, look them up and things like that.

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And by the way, guys, I'm going to share a link with you. I have found something that I think is just invaluable in my research on the early church fathers.

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And it's done, I believe, by Catholic, a Catholic group or whoever, whatever. And I have to admit, it's really well done.

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It really is. And so if you were to put the link in here, for example, right there.

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If you were to go there to that link and type in, you know, for example, let's say

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Colossians 2 .14. Then what it does, I'm really impressed with this.

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This is, it's so well done. It really is. What it'll do is it'll go through all the church fathers.

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And then it's brilliantly done. I'm really impressed with it. And it lists up the verses, the references inside the apostolic fathers and highlights the references inside of those things.

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It's great. So I spent some time yesterday and today looking about the

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Eucharist and found even more quotes from the church fathers that said that the

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Eucharist is symbolic. Now, that's not to say that some, and this is more research I've got to do. I'm just kind of rambling here, but more research

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I got to do, is a lot of the church fathers would say that this is his body and blood. But what does that mean?

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What do they mean by it? Do they mean that in, with and under the real presence, it becomes the element, the elements become the body and things like that?

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To what degree? And you can't find that. At least I didn't. In all the research I did, I didn't find any of that.

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So now you have to interpret what they meant by those statements. And anyway, it's a problem. But nevertheless, it's a great resource.

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And so I've been spending more and more time on there. I just got to look up a verse. And like I did on, oh, where was it today?

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I'm doing research. Matthew 26, 28, I think it was. Let's see. On, let's see.

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Matthew 26, 28. Yeah.

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This is the blood of the covenant, which is poured out. I say to you, a drink of the fruit. Take ye this my body.

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And I was doing research. I put in that verse, for example, Matthew 26, say 26.

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And then what I can do is once all those come up, I can just do a control F and look for the word symbol, look for the word represent.

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And then it gives you the highlights that you can go read the context and see what they're saying. And you know, when

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I've done this before, I find that the statement, the universal or the unanimous consensus of the church fathers is not true.

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It is not true. It is just not true. Not in every doctrine, that's for sure.

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Anyway. You know, Matt, when I talk to Catholics, I ask them, I go, can you show me where in your sacraments, not your sacraments, but the catechisms, the councils and manmade traditions, are they inspired by God?

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And they can never come up with that. I mean, it's basically, it's not inspired by God. So we must go to the

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Bible for resource. Now you're saying, okay, say that again. I didn't quite follow you.

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Can you show me where in your catechisms, manmade traditions and councils and church teachings that they are inspired by God?

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Can you hear me okay? There we go. You mean whether catechism is inspired by God or the tradition is inspired?

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Catechism, they would never, they wouldn't say that it's inspired. Church councils, you know, the council of Trent. Yeah. Well, you know what?

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The council of Trent bound itself. It cannot go against what's revealed in the council of Trent.

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And if they do, ooh, really problematic, which is why we have set of accountants. Yes. Yeah.

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All right. Exactly. When was the council of Trent? I'm sorry.

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When was the council of Trent? When was it? Yeah. The council of Trent.

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I forgot the exact information. Yeah. It was just as a result of the reformation, actually.

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Oh, okay. That's just after. Okay. Right. Just after. Because the reformation, they were going back to the

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Bible. And they were reading what the Bible said and believe what the Bible said instead of traditions that were imposed.

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The problem here is that when you're an official church and you have this power of dogma and proclamation and you make a statement, well, then you've got, the statement isn't exactly biblical.

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You've got to find a way to make it work. Now I'm going to say this. I think the

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Roman Catholic Church is brilliant in its ability to construct an interrelated kind of a system of thought that has consistency.

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Sometimes it's very deep. And it doesn't mean it's true, but they do this. The Mormons do the same kind of a thing.

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This is why I recognize it in the Catholic Church. If you're inside the Mormon worldview, things make sense until you start really examining, applying logic, and then the worldview collapses.

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The same thing with Catholicism. But they have this pretty sophisticated interwoven system of thought.

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And what I find fascinating is how the Roman Catholic is so loyal to the true church.

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They're not loyal, in my opinion, to Jesus. And I'm not trying to insult a

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Catholic, but I think they're more loyal to their church than to Christ and to his word.

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That's my opinion. What do you guys think? Well, I see them streaming like ants out of some of the churches when they're going through communion.

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You know when they are. There's a church at Sunnybank in Brisbane. It's right on the corner near a train station.

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And, yeah, the crossing's there. It's like a flow of people coming out of the church directly onto the street and going back.

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And then they go the other way, coming in for their communion and their confessions or whatever they want to do,

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I guess. I've never been in the church to see what they do. I don't want to, to be totally honest with you.

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But, yeah, just the way I look at it, it's like it's a workspace religion automatically. If I don't go to this, then this isn't going to work.

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Right. And they have condign merit, congruent merit, strict merit definitions, and things like that. But this tradition thing happens inside of Protestantism, too.

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My first pastorate was an assistant pastorate at a Dutch Reformed church. And my last name is

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Slick. I don't know if you know much about Dutch. But I remember,

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I still remember, you know, I'm six feet tall. I'm looking down at this lady. She's shorter than me. And, you know,

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I was introduced as Dominee, which is, you know, teacher. I don't need that. Just call me

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Matt. It's fine. But they had their tradition. And so she said, well, what's your name?

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I said, Matt Slick. She said, your last name is what? I said, Slick. And she looked at me and said, Slickstra?

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She could not get out of that mindset of the Dutch tradition. And we ended up butting heads, the church and I, over the next year and a half.

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I mean, politely, but over issues. And I saw the tradition that happens in Protestantism. People like tradition.

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They find security and regularity. And, you know, it happens.

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And Slick being German wouldn't have helped you either because the Dutch and the Germans were at each other's throats.

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Yes, pretty much. Most of the

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Cold War and World War II. That's true. Oh, yeah. Now, Crystal asks a question.

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Why do they teach that Mary was sinless? Because of Luke 128. It says this.

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And coming in, he said to her, greetings. Actually, it says in the

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NSB, favored one. Highly favored one. And some say it means full of grace.

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The unfortunate thing is that it's karytomine in the Greek, which means highly favored one.

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And the phrase karytos, karytos, that's right.

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Full of grace is not used there. But it is used in John 114.

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And I'll explain this. But they say that she's full of grace because if she's full of grace, then she can't have sin in her because she's full of grace.

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So is demons. That's the argument. So John 114, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory and the glory of the only begotten, full of grace and truth.

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Okay. Full of grace and truth. That's what it says right there. So Jesus, obviously, was full of grace and also truth.

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And so we have that phrase right there, full of grace. And it's karytos. Well, it just so happens that someone else was full of grace and truth.

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And that was Thomas. Excuse me, Stephen. Okay. Go to Acts.

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I got to find the exact verse. Acts chapter six. I believe it is six. And come on, full of grace and power.

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Six, eight. And Stephen, full of grace. Platos karytos is the same phrase.

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Full of grace and power. Now, the logic here, you have to ask, if Mary was sinless because she was full of grace, then was

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Stephen sinless because he was full of grace? And it actually says in the Greek, full, platos, or platos, and karytos, or karytos, grace.

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Full of grace. That's what it says. Luke 128 doesn't say that. Luke 128 says highly favored one.

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And that is karytomene. And so that's what it is. But it comes from, what it means is to grace, highly honor, to greatly favor.

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Spoken of only in the divine favor as to the Virgin Mary. Luke 128, karytomene.

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And that's the only place that occurs in there. She's highly favored. And she was. She was very blessed.

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But if the logic is full of grace, which is an incorrect translation, means that she's therefore sinless.

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That's what I've heard from Catholics. Please come in and correct me if I'm incorrect. That's what I've heard.

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Well, then why is not in Acts 6a, Stephen, who's full of grace, also sinless then? Good question.

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And also, is full of grace in Luke 128, is that only found in the

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Latin Vulgate manuscript? Yeah, I believe it's in the Latin Vulgate.

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You should know all this stuff. I studied it a long time ago and I've forgotten a lot of it. It was Jerome who mistranslated it into the

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Latin Vulgate and put full of grace. And he built a doctrine on this. I think that's correct.

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I think I remembered it correctly. Does that answer your question, Crystal? If you guys have questions, you can put them in.

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In fact, let me check on the Catholic Church and Reformation Debates Forum.

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And so I'm seeing if anybody there is asking any questions. What I'm going to do is type in there and put the word test from C -C -T -R -D -F.

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And I'm going to see if it shows up inside of my

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StreamYard, if it goes in. If it does, then I'll know that the questions that they put in there in the comments come into here.

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And I'll wait for it just a little bit and see. But I don't think it's going to. I think that if they – no, it won't.

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Of course it won't. What am I thinking? Because this is not streaming to that. It would have to be on the –

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Okay. It wouldn't do that. My bad. All right. Yeah. You said to truth before,

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Mary was full of truth and Jesus was full of truth. Did I say that?

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Jesus' level of truth and standard. No. You know, full of grace, but grace and truth.

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Well, Jesus is full of grace and truth. Or a different standard of – I would have thought

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Jesus would have been a very different standard of truth than Mary's truth. Well, if I said that she was full of truth, then

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I mistook. I misspoke. Maybe you didn't. But the whole Catholic thing is

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Mary's full of grace and truth if she's without sin, and Jesus would have been full of grace and truth, but on a very different scale, if you will.

28:59

Right. And that would be something to talk to Catholics. You know, I've studied Catholicism for years, and to be honest, there's a whole bunch more to learn.

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Really, there is. In fact, I don't know how many of you guys have seen my outlines on Calvinism. You ever seen that?

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No, I haven't personally. And it's on – I published it on –

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I'm bringing it up on my thing here. I published it on Amazon, and it has – how many pages is it?

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82 pages. I've got 82 pages of notes, okay? 82 in that, and that's 25 years of notes that I put together and, you know, use.

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My outline – Sounds very deep. What's that? Sounds like it's quite deep.

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Oh, yeah. It's just an outline, and it's just how I arrange my information. The outlines of Catholicism is 133 pages, and I've only been working on it for a couple of years, and it's 133 pages.

30:07

Hey, Matt, how can Catholics get around in Luke 147 when Mary said, my

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Lord and my Savior? Well, what they're going to say in Luke 147 is that she saved him, that God saved her from becoming a sinner.

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Oh, no. That's just not funny. And you ask them, and they can't prove anything.

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Well, you know, they can't prove it. Not in Scripture.

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Maybe in tradition they can. Oh, they can't prove it. No, no. It's not an issue of that.

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Yeah. I'm trying to – sorry.

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The Catholic guy's asked me to try and get this thing going inside of his group to try to make it work.

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Mm -hmm. And I'm trying to do a watch party, but I can't get the watch party to work.

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So I can put it on his page. I cannot try. I think maybe Facebook is penalizing me for doing watch parties.

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I did a watch party on Reformed Coffeehouse. For here? Yes. For this show?

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Maybe you could do it on them, too, because he's asking, and I don't want to impose. Which Facebook page is it?

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It's – here, let me put the URL in. And there we go.

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So he trusts me. He said he would give me the admin username and password so I could add it into StreamYard so it could feed in there.

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And, of course, you know, I would never abuse that. But I said, well, let's see if he can figure another way, you know.

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But – and I'll only do this if he says it's okay. I'm not going to, you know – so he said it was.

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So that's the – that's it. That's the URL for the Facebook one.

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Yeah. So I'm hoping that some Catholics will come in and we can have a discussion and stuff like that.

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That's what I'm hoping. But each time it comes up to something live like this, they don't show up.

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And then they say, well, you could debate me. And then what happens is, you know,

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I have so much to do. I have 32 notifications waiting for me in the past 10 minutes in Facebook.

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32. And, you know, and let's see how many emails have

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I got. I've only got 843 on info at CARM .org.

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Mad at CARM .org, 634. And I've got other ones. I'm not going to say which ones they are.

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I don't want those to get inundated either. There's one with 1 ,008. There's another one with just 11 because I moved stuff out of that one.

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So, yeah, I got, you know, it's hard to keep up with everybody. And so one guy on that forum, what he did was he started saying that, you know,

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I was a coward. And the other guy said, oh, Matt refuses to answer. I'm like, I don't see everything.

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But these guys, so few of them have any tolerance or show any love of the spirit. Yeah, most certainly.

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Got a couple of questions, Matt. They might be off topic. My neighbor wants to argue that Jesus married

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Mary Magdalene. And he can't seem to get his facts around that.

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And we have regular discussions on theology. And that's usually where the brakes get put on for me because as far as I am concerned,

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Jesus did not marry. I don't know of any evidence from the

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Bible. I can't think of any reference to which

34:31

I can take him, but he likes to take me to places where he thinks that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus.

34:40

Well, you know, people say those kind of things, but you can't demonstrate from Scripture that it's true. There's sort of beautiful comments that have alluded to that kind of a thing, but it's just not true.

34:50

So just ask him. You have to demonstrate it's true, but otherwise it's just his opinion.

34:56

And that's it. Yeah, that's what I figured. It's tough to get him around to anything other than that.

35:04

So I guess it kills that one. Remember, proof is different than persuasion.

35:11

Yeah, yeah. And my brothers have another struggle with the genealogy of Jesus.

35:18

Which relates to Matthew and Luke where he differs.

35:25

Matthew and Luke 3, yep. Yeah. How can that be explained?

35:32

They're ex -Christians. They're ex -Christians. They're atheists now.

35:40

So it's kind of they think they know the Bible. And I can't explain anything out of that.

35:53

I can't snap them out of their mindset of we don't need God. Yeah, hold on a second.

36:00

I'm going to. Hold on a second.

36:28

Okay, hold on a sec.

36:34

I don't know if you can hear me. We're typing about trying to get this on the Catholic board feed. Yeah, that's okay.

36:42

Take your time. He wants me to do it. He's a nice guy. But I can't get it to feed.

36:49

Wait a minute. There it is. Is that it? Or is that? Yeah, it's on. But it's not live.

36:57

I don't know how. I'm still trying to figure everything out. It's there. I put the link there and stuff like that.

37:04

All they got to do is just come in and take a look. They can go into the. All they got to do is go click on the

37:10

YouTube thing. They can be in there typing. They can click on the link.

37:15

They can participate. There's a stream out link. The link works. I came in via it. Yeah, it's easy.

37:23

Unless they're cowardly themselves. So what he may do is he may give me the username and password to log in under his username.

37:32

It would have to be his username and password to do it. And then I could add it. I could shut this one down, go in, restart it, add his thing in and be back up and running in like three minutes.

37:42

And then I could do this again. But that way it would get fed on his system.

37:47

But that would mean me having his username and password. And I don't really feel comfortable with that, but he could do that.

37:53

And then he could just change the password when we're done so that I don't have it anymore. But he said he'd trust me to do something like that, which

38:02

I consider quite appreciate that. I would trust you. People would trust me.

38:09

I wouldn't trust anybody else. I hope people trust me.

38:17

But, you know, my YouTube channel is very small, and I talk about Asperger's syndrome and epilepsy and dealing with life that way, which links me to Christianity.

38:28

Do you have Asperger's? Yes, most certainly. Yeah, my grandmother had it too.

38:36

Oh, wow. It's not very common among females. No. And she was extra special.

38:43

She was one of the RAAF nurses who went into Japan after the dropping of the second atomic bomb and took care of the

38:54

Japanese. Wow. Wow. And she kept very silent about it too.

39:01

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, she definitely had it.

39:07

We know she had it. Yeah. Yeah, it's something I've had to struggle through my whole life.

39:15

I've gotten a lot better at it. So does anybody have the ability to start a watch party on the

39:23

Facebook thing and put in the Catholic, go to the Catholic thing?

39:29

I think you have to go in and add it to your

39:35

Facebook, and then you can do it. So we should have worked on this earlier.

39:41

But, you know, it's just working out bugs. That's what happens. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have all your own problems too.

39:48

Yeah, I get a lot of stuff. I'm actually working on a novel, and I use some spare time, usually after midnight.

39:56

I'll edit for a while and then I go to bed. So I didn't get much sleep last night because I was editing.

40:02

I got to find an editor who likes sci -fi who can go through it once, who doesn't know about my story, because when you've written it and you go over and over it, you start putting in words because you know what you mean to say.

40:17

You're not hearing it. I would say send it off to Hugh Ross because he'll put you in a place.

40:23

That's fine. Well, this is fiction, you know, and no Christianity is in it. But there's actually a couple of things

40:29

I've woven into it from a Christian perspective without people knowing it. Yeah.

40:35

But Hugh Ross is also an Asperger's as well, and he also has a whole lot of things.

40:40

Yeah, and don't watch Star Wars or Star Trek with him because he'll tell you how bad it is and how anti -scientific it really is.

40:49

Oh, you mean Star Trek? Yeah. Oh, it's horrible. Yeah, and Star Wars as well.

40:56

Oh, Star Wars is even worse. But Star Wars is probably the better ones for me, and Star Wars was destroyed when

41:04

Jar Jar Binks was added. I just can't take it anymore. You know, I just get overloaded with the

41:10

Star Wars stuff. It's just special effects action so much. It's like, what's happening?

41:17

And it's just I get overloaded, and I've lost interest in it. I remember when we saw the last one, we went out to a big party.

41:23

We went out and watched it in the theater. I was bored halfway through. Like, you know, if it was an end right now,

41:30

I'd be fine. And I'd just go home. And then the next day, I wasn't even thinking about the movie. You know,

41:35

I wasn't even thinking about it. Yeah, well, it's so unreal that you can't even do it. So, you know, I was just thinking he is a – what is he?

41:42

He's not a cosmologist, but he's one of those sorts of things too. Right. But he's very good.

41:50

Reasonstobelieve .org, that's his website. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's good. I used to know a guy who worked with him, went to college with him.

41:58

What was his name? He works with Hugh Ross. Is Fred a tip of my tongue?

42:05

Yeah, Reds. No? Oh, man.

42:12

Charlie, Spine does not recommend you, Ross, for several reasons. Okay, Charlie.

42:19

I recommend him for a little bit because he at least tries to put something between the old age link and the young earth link.

42:29

That's my reason. Okay. I would recommend a book to you called

42:38

Refuting Compromise by Jonathan Safarteh. Safarteh? Mm -hmm.

42:44

Yeah, I have most of his books, actually. Yeah, most of –

42:51

I have The Greatest Race on Earth. Yeah, most of Refuting Compromise is on the web available, either him going through it personally in a lecture or the text itself.

43:05

Yep. Yeah. I've seen him. He's a legend, and he was interviewed,

43:11

I think, on Vocab Channel a couple of months ago. Yeah, I think he's the chess champion down in New Zealand, played 12 people blindfolded and beat them all.

43:24

Yep, that's exactly right. Who's that? Jonathan Safarteh. Jonathan Safarteh. Wow. He works with CMI, Creation Ministries International, sorry.

43:37

Exactly. Yeah, he's got a mind like a steel trap. It's sharp. Yep, and he's

43:45

American -based now, but he has been Australian -based. Mm -hmm.

43:53

But he is a good writer. Definitely. Greatest Race on Earth I would recommend to anyone.

44:00

Of course, it's a spoof of the greatest show on Earth. All right.

44:08

So I'm trying to help this guy get his own StreamYard thing going, so he can go, he can move over there, and the

44:13

Catholics can have a discussion with him. If any Catholics are out there and want to ask any questions, please feel free.

44:23

So I was hoping this would work. Maybe we could – I don't know. We'll see if we can figure it out.

44:30

Trying to get to the Catholics can ask questions. I wish I had some Catholic questions to ask, but I can only ask from the

44:38

Reformation viewpoint, because that's basically the only way that I can conclude myself to be.

44:45

Okay. Well, I've definitely reformed myself. Oh, come on.

44:50

How come I can't edit that? Okay. I do have a person I used to be in contact with who was trying to tell me that he was from the reform to the

45:01

Catholicism viewpoint. So – Has this happened? Yeah. And, you know, he's strong in his view, and I'm strong in my view, and we just can't agree.

45:11

But he's a really nice guy. Have you heard me go over Colossus 214? Maybe, but memory jog, to say safely,

45:22

I would better say no. Well, put the link back in.

45:27

Link for what, Bill? Colossus 214, I think, proves

45:32

Catholicism false and Calvinism true. Let me grab my Bible.

45:38

I can go through it. Here it is.

45:47

Old and faded, but it's a good Bible. As long as it works. Well, it's falling apart now.

45:53

And I have to find it via the back, which is where my content is.

46:01

Okay. I'm just trying to do two things at once, which is why I'm half kind of participating a little bit, trying to get this going.

46:12

The normal watch party won't work, and I don't know why.

46:20

Okay. So here I am. And let's see.

46:26

I'm going to go into my own Facebook group and give it a try again.

46:42

What the heck? Okay. Let's try this. Oh, man.

46:51

Colossus 214. In my opinion, it is, in my opinion, it's a single most profound verse that supports

46:59

Calvinism in the entire Bible. I believe it supports.

47:11

Let's see. Perseverance of the Saints, limited atonement and unconditional election.

47:23

That's what I think. Yeah. Anyway, I'm trying to do the. Let's see.

47:32

Hang on 214. Did you say? Yeah. Colossus 214. Okay. So having wiped out the handwriting requirements, it was against us, which was contrary to us.

47:42

And he has taken out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Right. Is that right? Yep.

47:49

And so let's see. Hey, you know what? Let's see. Start a watch party. Oh, I think

47:55

I got it. They changed something. Okay, hold on. Okay.

48:02

I'm going to get going. I think I got it. Okay. I'll explain in a second here.

48:09

I think I got it. Okay. Let me turn this.

48:16

Now I'm going to turn this down. I can hear myself. So now I can turn it down.

48:28

I can't stop it. And I got a sound. Okay. There we go. Got it.

48:33

Okay. Now it's working over there. Finally. And I did the watch party thing over there.

48:40

Facebook changed himself. Now, why do I say that Colossians 2 .14 proves

48:46

Calvinism? Okay. Look at, I'm going to read out of the same Bible that Paul the

48:52

Apostle used. Okay. So I'm going to go to Colossians 2 .13. And then we'll, some

48:57

Catholics are going to ask some questions. I guess we'll get to that. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.

49:10

Verse 14, having canceled out the certificate of debt, consisting of decrees, which is hostile to us.

49:15

So I'll go to the King James version. It says, having forgiven you all your trespasses, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances.

49:24

Okay. What version are you using, Andrew? I'm using a new King James. Okay. Go to the new

49:30

King James then. Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us. The reason the translations are doing different, doing this differently.

49:39

I'm going to go. Let's see. Colossians 2 .14. Certificate of debt, record of debt, handwriting of ordinances, handwriting of requirements, the bond.

49:55

Let's see. Certificate of indebtedness, the written code, certificate of debt, and handwriting of decrees.

50:03

So these are the, I've got all those translations. I have a comparison thing in my Bible program. All right.

50:08

Why so different? Because of the Greek word, and I'll explain, and then I'll put this together.

50:14

The Greek word is kairagraphon. Kairagraphon? Kairagraphon.

50:22

Let's see if I can put it in the text here. Let's see if it'll do Greek. Hey, it does,

50:27

I guess. Let's see if it goes in there. All right. So kairagraphon, what does it mean?

50:35

Okay. This is just out of a lexicon right here. And come on, it's got to get in there.

50:46

Okay. And so what it means is a handwriting of record of debt, a note written by the hand, which makes one obligated to fulfill what is written.

50:56

So there's two main things we can read into this to understand what the handwriting of ordinances is.

51:03

It could be the law, because it says in verse 13, having forgiven us all our transgressions.

51:12

And that's what it says. Having forgiven us all of our transgressions, and having canceled out the certificate of debt.

51:20

So you see that these things are related, and both of them are in the same tense.

51:26

They're aorist, active, participle, singular, nominative. Having, having canceled, having forgiven.

51:33

So that's just a structure of the thing. Having canceled, having done the certificate of debt, having canceled, having removed our transgressions.

51:42

So most commentators I've looked at hold the idea that the certificate of debt is our sin debt.

51:49

So let me work with that for a little bit. Jesus said that, he said in, let's see, here we go.

51:57

He said, our father, heart and heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come. Forgive us our debts, in Matthew 6, 12, but in Luke 11, 4, he said, forgive us our sins.

52:08

Jesus equates sin with legal debt. Okay. And sin is breaking the law of God, 1

52:14

John 3, 4. And Jesus said on the cross, John 19, 30, he said, to Telestai, it is finished.

52:21

And, but that word to Telestai was, has been found on some ancient tax receipts and just handwritten with a different hand to Telestai means it's been paid in full.

52:34

Jesus paid our price on the cross. He legally did this. Now, if we look at the verse, if we go with this means a certificate of debt as in the sin debt.

52:45

Okay. Which I think is what it is, but it could be the sin debt or it could be the law. And either way you want to look at it.

52:52

I think both, both needs to be dead. Don't they? What do you say?

52:58

Go ahead. I would say that they were both one in the same and we need to have both of them paid anyway, before we've got any hope.

53:07

That's right. Because our legal debt is by the law. Okay. Now I'll teach about that a little bit.

53:13

So let's work on the sin debt, but it says here, the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us.

53:20

Well, that's why we have a sin debt because of the decrees. Don't lie. Don't steal. We've broken those laws. We have a sin debt.

53:26

Was hostile to us. He's taken it out of the way, having nailed to the cross, having canceled it.

53:32

Now here's the question. When was it canceled? At the cross. At the cross. Okay.

53:39

Is the sin debt canceled when we believe? Yes. Because it's up to the cross.

53:48

No, it's canceled. At the cross. Canceled at the cross. But the cross happened 2 ,000 years ago in 1987 or whatever it is.

53:56

Is that right? It happened 2 ,000 years ago. Yeah. Right? So our sin debt is not canceled when we believe.

54:05

It's canceled at the cross. At the cross. So is it canceled at our death? What? Is it canceled at our death?

54:15

At our death? When we die. No. Nope. Now let me go sideways a little bit with you.

54:22

All right. Go to Romans 6 and go to verse 6. Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him.

54:33

Okay. When were we crucified with Christ? When we were crucified with Christ 2 ,000 years ago.

54:40

2 ,000 years ago. Yeah. And it says we died with Christ, Romans 6 .8. How do we die with Christ?

54:47

How are we crucified with Christ? There's a doctrine called federal headship where the male represents a descendant.

54:52

So Christ represented us. He represented us. And so we died with him. So the people in hell, did they die with Christ?

55:00

No. No. Well, they died in their sin.

55:05

They died in their sin. They didn't die with Christ. Now check this out. Romans 7, starting at verse 1.

55:13

Do you not know, brethren, for I'm speaking to those who know the law, that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives.

55:20

For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he's living. But if her husband dies, she's released from the law concerning the husband.

55:28

Released from the law if he dies. So then if while her husband is living, she's joined to another, she shall be called an adulteress.

55:34

But if her husband dies, she's freed from the law. Why? Because he's dead. He's no longer under the law.

55:40

Okay. Now look at verse 4. Therefore, my brethren. Someone's calling me.

55:49

Why am I getting a call right now on Skype? Hold on. See who it is.

55:56

This is interesting. So very interesting. Okay. Well, it's going to get better. I don't know who's calling me or what's calling me.

56:03

What's going on? I don't know what's going on. I'm not going to whatever. People are messing with me.

56:10

It often happens. Oh, Robert's calling. Hold on a sec. Oh, I just now saw that it was him.

56:21

Is that the Catholic guy? Yeah. Yeah. Let's see. I'm calling him back. It was on Facebook.

56:28

So hey, Robert. Yeah. I didn't know what that ringing was, so I got a little confused. They're hearing me talk.

56:34

They're not hearing you talk, though. So I got it working.

56:42

I got the watch party working. Finally. Yeah. They buried it.

56:48

They did something different. So I got it working. Well, I'll tell you what.

56:54

What I can do is I can help you again do the StreamYard thing. Right.

57:02

But I didn't know how to do it. I mean, I've done it, but they changed where those things was. I had to go searching, and then

57:07

I found it. So I got it going on. I don't know.

57:21

Well, watch party could be shared a video Facebook by your phone, not on the thing. It's a whole other thing. But look, now

57:28

I'm in there teaching on something. I mean, yeah. But I'm teaching on Colossians 2 14.

57:36

It proves Calvinism. It says no Catholics are in here except for traditional Catholic, which we'll get him in later.

57:42

I already started this before he came in. So if you want. Yeah. Yeah, I know.

57:53

Yeah, that's right. Most apologists are Calvinist, but it is because they read the

57:59

Bible so much. So let me get back in there. Why don't you come on in? Why don't you come on in? Here's the link.

58:06

Tell you what. Let me do this. I'm going to. That's fine.

58:16

I'm going to do is if I can do this, get a I'll put the link.

58:26

Yeah, I told you about that. What to do. Look in there. There's the link. If you click on that link, you can get right in.

58:36

That's the one. And then you can get right in and you can be in with us. Okay. All right.

58:47

No, no, no. That's not team viewer. That's not team viewer. This is StreamYard. If you click on StreamYard, you can actually get into our conversation and say things and talk.

59:02

I'll tell you what. We'll have to do another time because I'm talking to them. But if you copy the StreamYard, put it in your computer, it won't work on the phone.

59:10

Then you can get in on the computer. Okay. It's right there.

59:20

I put it in the link there. StreamYard .com. Oh, in our thing.

59:32

Our chat right here. In the Facebook call. Yeah. Tell you what.

59:50

Yeah. Just go over to this type. All right.

59:57

Call me back if you have a problem. Okay. Because you got the information right there. Just go to your computer. Type in your browser.

01:00:03

StreamYard .com forward slash those numbers. You'll get in. All right. Numbers and letters.

01:00:11

Yeah. Yeah. You'll be in the group with us. Okay. Okay. Talk to you later. Okay.

01:00:18

All right. Now. So where was I? Colossus 214. Oh, I don't know. I was laughing at you telling that most apologists are

01:00:26

Calvinists. Not in this country. When I went looking online to try and find some, they were all

01:00:34

Catholic. I should say most

01:00:40

Protestant apologists are Catholic. Before I met Dan Patterson, I knew no apologists within Australia.

01:00:49

Wow. Well, I'd love to. I want to go to Australia, too. I'd love to go there and do some teaching. But I may be leaving these shores anyway.

01:00:58

You want me to get back to Colossians 2? Colossians 2, though. Romans 7, won't we?

01:01:05

Oh, yeah. Romans 7 verse 4. Okay. Now. Okay.

01:01:14

So we died with Christ, crucified with Christ. We died to the law through Christ.

01:01:21

Right. Now, check this out. This is Romans 5 .13.

01:01:29

For until the law, sin was in the world. But sin is not imputed when there is no law.

01:01:36

Okay. No law, no sin. Yeah. If you're going to be a Christian, you have to know the law. If we've died to the law, then the law doesn't have jurisdiction over us.

01:01:44

And then we could make the case and we don't sin anymore. It's called a now and the not yet in theology.

01:01:51

We do, but we don't. So we have looking at two things at once. But the point is that when we go back to Colossians 2 .14,

01:01:59

it says, the sin that's cantled at the cross. Now here's a question. Can you go, can you be damned?

01:02:07

Can you go to hell for a sin debt that's canceled? If it doesn't exist.

01:02:14

Wouldn't have thought so. How could you go to hell? How could you be judged if your sin debts canceled as Colossians 2 .14

01:02:21

says? You can't. You can't. Because it would be unrighteous for God to send someone to hell if their sin debt is canceled.

01:02:29

As verse 15 goes on to say, 2 .15, talking about having disarmed principles and principalities and powers, made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

01:02:47

And I'm assuming that it's the death. Would that be correct? Well, we're doing version.

01:02:54

Let's just stick with Colossians 2 .14, okay? Yep, yep. That's okay. I was just thinking 15 makes the difference of principalities and powers makes absolute disarming.

01:03:03

The triumph was at the cross. But we're talking about the issue of the propitiatory sacrifice.

01:03:10

The propitiatory sacrifice out of 1 John 2 .4 and 4 .10 is a sacrifice that removes wrath.

01:03:17

Because to propitiate means to remove wrath. It doesn't mean to make it possible. It means it's done.

01:03:23

If the sin debt is canceled at the cross, then we have questions we have to ask.

01:03:29

One, I think Robert was in and he lost, okay, let's get back in.

01:03:36

If it's canceled at the cross, not when you believe, not when you're baptized, it's canceled at the cross.

01:03:41

All right, now, can you go to hell for sin debt that's not there? It's canceled, it's removed. You can't because it's not there.

01:03:48

There's nothing there. Well, wait a minute. People go to hell. Mark 3 .29, Matthew 25 .46,

01:03:54

Revelation 14 .11, 20 .10. They go to hell. So then how is it possible that Jesus paid the price and canceled the sin debt for everybody who ever lived?

01:04:07

Can't. Can't, so this has to be limited atonement.

01:04:13

You only call the sins of the elect, which proves unconditional election also.

01:04:22

Because unconditional election means that God is the one who's chosen us for salvation. Second Thessalonians 2 .13.

01:04:29

And so he's chosen us, we're predestined from the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1 .4 and 5. Hold on a sec.

01:04:38

Which also covers irresistible grace too, doesn't it? It could.

01:04:47

Okay, hold on. And so, yeah, he dropped out.

01:04:52

Okay, so it definitely shows unconditional election because Jesus atoned for the elect.

01:05:01

That's unconditional election, unlimited atonement. And if your sin debt's canceled at the cross, then it's perseverance of the saints.

01:05:08

Because it doesn't have anything to do with your ability to keep yourself right with God. No. And it could be, we could stretch it a little bit,

01:05:16

I think, for irresistible grace, but that means that at the time of regeneration, you can't resist

01:05:22

God's saving work. That's what that means. But I say that this verse definitely shows three aspects.

01:05:33

Unconditional election, unlimited atonement, irresistible grace. I think it's a very, very powerful verse.

01:05:39

If, however, it's the law that is being referred to then. Well, if it's the law, then the law is canceled, but without the law, sin is not imputed,

01:05:48

Romans 5 .13. And you can't have sin anyway, and you're still back to the same problem. This verse, in my opinion, proves

01:05:56

Catholicism is false. It proves Arminianism is false. And it proves that limited atonement is true.

01:06:03

That's my opinion. Well, I would agree that our atonement is very limited.

01:06:10

It has to be. We limit the scope, others limit the power, right? Because we are in a state of total depravity, and I totally get the tulip principle.

01:06:21

I've been taught that, well, most of my life, because I spent many years in the

01:06:27

Presbyterian church and in the Westminster Presbyterian church when it was here in Australia, ironically planted by Americans, and we had that jumped into us.

01:06:40

Yeah, good. Okay, I think I'm getting it. Sorry, I'm doing several things at once. We've got people who want to get in, and someone wants to take a minute.

01:06:48

I think you can only get five in the room at once, can't you? Six. Six, okay.

01:06:53

Six. Well, if you need me to drop out, I can drop out. Okay. Just saying. But Robert was in, and then he dropped out.

01:07:02

I'm trying to - And Bill's back. Yeah. There.

01:07:13

It should work. And if he does get in again, we'll get him on here.

01:07:20

Okay, let's get traditional Catholic on. Yep, let's do that.

01:07:27

Okay, now you're in traditional Catholic. Okay, here it goes. Okay, what?

01:07:34

Okay, Colossians 2. Yeah, if you just back up a little bit, and you see that Colossians 11 through 12 is speaking about baptism.

01:07:43

So Colossians 14 is referring to baptism. So in other words, our sins are being forgiven, and we're being justified by Jesus Christ.

01:07:52

That's what it's referring to, but it's referring to the waters of baptism. So the waters of baptism is when the certificate of debt was nailed to the cross?

01:08:03

Well, let's go ahead and take a look at it. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. You said it's baptism, which is mentioned earlier.

01:08:11

And he talked about baptism and the covenant relationship. And then in verse 13, when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made your life together with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.

01:08:23

Now, he canceled it, but if you're looking, what version of the Bible are you looking at? Well, I'm looking at the

01:08:32

Most Holy Family Monastery's website right now, and they have all the verses listed where, I don't know which

01:08:37

Bible version they've taken it from. Okay, well - They have all the Bible verses listed whereby it proves baptism from the

01:08:45

Bible. Hold on, hold on, hold on. What, I'm trying to find out what version you're in. Give me like the first, what it says, it says in Colossians 2 .14,

01:08:55

it says, my version says canceled out the certificate of debt.

01:09:00

What does yours say? Yeah, canceling out the certificate of debt, that's referring to when we go ahead and we get water baptized.

01:09:08

Would you hold on, I'm trying to ask you a question. I said, what does your version say?

01:09:14

I'm just trying to know what the version is. Yeah, I just told you that I'm looking on the

01:09:19

Most Holy Family Monastery's website and they don't list the version, so I don't know what version they do. I asked you,

01:09:25

I said, what did the word say? I understand, but I already told you that it's listing

01:09:31

Colossians 2, 11 through 12, it doesn't show 14, I'm simply making the case that 14 is a continuation of Colossians 11 through 12.

01:09:39

Then get a Bible that has the verse in it. Well, I can give you Colossians 11 through 12 and you can look at that and then you can find out which -

01:09:45

I'm looking at 11 and 12, but we're talking about verse 14. I understand, but you wanna know the version, right?

01:09:51

So I can give you 11 through 12. Okay, what's - Then you can know what version that he's using.

01:09:59

Just give me the first five or six verses of verse 11, words of verse 11. Okay, in Jesus, it has

01:10:06

Jesus in parentheses, also ye are circumcised with the circumcision. In?

01:10:14

Yeah, in Jesus, but Jesus - You're circumcised with a circumcision made without hands and in putting off the body of the sin?

01:10:22

Yeah, it says in Jesus, but Jesus is in parentheses. I understand. And then it says, also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands.

01:10:35

Okay, well, tell you what, trying to find out what. In him also you are circumcised with a circumcision made without hands by putting the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ.

01:10:47

Yeah, that's the RSV, okay? And then the RSV says, having canceled the bond, which stood against us with his legal demands, he has set this aside, nailing it to the cross.

01:10:59

So you need to, you can't have a discussion if you don't have the whole verses there, okay?

01:11:05

So it's the RSV, go to, just go find the RSV and so that you can then know what we're talking about.

01:11:14

Well, I know what we're talking about because it says right there what it's talking about. It says buried with him in baptism. So 14 is obviously, 14 is a continuation of this.

01:11:24

It's speaking, the entire passage here is referring to baptism. Okay, what was canceled at the cross?

01:11:30

What was, what do you nail it to the cross? In verse 14. Our sins, our transgressions. Good, so it says in the beginning of that, it says canceling the bond, canceling it.

01:11:42

What was canceled at the cross? Well, at the cross, the old covenant laws were canceled.

01:11:51

Okay, so the old, so the law, the old covenant law is canceled, okay? So there's no more law? No, there's law under the new covenant, but the old covenant law is abrogated.

01:12:01

Old Testament law is canceled, right? And that's what it's referring to. It's referring just to the

01:12:07

Old Testament law, that's all? Correct, because the moral laws are still in existence because we see

01:12:13

St. Paul. Okay. Well, you just asked me if that's all. I'm explaining to you, that's not all.

01:12:19

And I'm trying to explain to you why that's not all. We see that St. Paul is referring to moral laws and telling those in the church that they must keep the moral laws, which means that we must keep laws.

01:12:33

Okay, so the law that you said is canceled in the Old Testament includes love the

01:12:39

Lord to God without all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbors yourself, right? Well, the thing is, is the ordinances and rituals that were canceled, as for the love

01:12:52

God, those laws - He doesn't say that. You asked me a question, do you want me to answer? Yeah, I want you to answer truthfully and accurately according to the word of God.

01:13:00

It doesn't say that. I'm trying to answer if you would just allow me to answer. You did, it doesn't say that. In the middle of my answer, you're cutting me off.

01:13:08

I'm trying to give you an answer. We've talked so many times before, I know how you operate, you're very difficult. Well, why don't you simply let me answer?

01:13:15

If you're gonna ask me a question, why don't you just allow me to answer? Stop whining, just answer the question. Okay, don't interrupt me.

01:13:22

I'm not gonna interrupt you, if I want to interrupt, come on now. Okay, so therefore you don't want me to answer the question.

01:13:28

I'm asking you to answer the question. Okay. Do it according to the scripture.

01:13:34

Okay, so anyway, you asked me a question with regards to love for God and love for neighbor.

01:13:40

There are laws in the old covenant that you can say that was with regards to love for God and love for neighbor.

01:13:48

But even if they had these laws, no one was justified unto salvation because they carried out these laws.

01:13:57

The only way you're justified unto salvation is if you persevere under the new covenant, not the old covenant.

01:14:05

I was just asking you, what was canceled according to verse 14? And I just told you,

01:14:11

I just told you, the old covenant laws were canceled. The old covenant laws. I just told you. Okay, then

01:14:17

I asked you, and then I asked you, because the old covenant law includes love God and love your neighbor. Was that canceled as well?

01:14:24

I just gave you the answer. Everything I just said, apparently just went right over your head.

01:14:30

It's either yes or no. Was it canceled with, because you said the old Testament law is canceled.

01:14:37

The law includes love God and love your neighbor. I just want to know, since you're saying the old

01:14:43

Testament law was canceled, if that's canceled with it, since it's part of the old Testament law. Okay, let me repeat what

01:14:49

I just said since it went over your head. I said that the old covenant laws, the old covenant laws of rituals and ordinances were canceled.

01:15:01

They were replaced with the new Testament, but under the new Testament, we still have laws.

01:15:07

The same laws with regards to loving God and loving your neighbor still apply.

01:15:15

But as we saw with Jesus, when he was referring to the old laws, he said that they're not done away with, but we're to understand them in the correct way because old laws were nothing more than a foreshadowing of what the true law always was, what the spirit of the law always was.

01:15:35

And the spirit of the law always was to love God and with all your heart, mind and soul and to love your neighbor.

01:15:42

So that is a continuation. That is something that we must continually do.

01:15:48

But as with regards to washing hands, not eating pork, stuff like that, whatever those rituals and ordinances were under the old covenant, we are not obligated to follow those laws anymore because those were done away with.

01:16:04

That's what Jesus is speaking of there. The problem with having a dialogue with you, and I've had so many with you,

01:16:12

I ask a simple question and you go on for so long. What I do is I just tune you out and I wait till you get done because you have a habit of not answering the question.

01:16:21

You wanna go on - I just answered it. I answered it. No, I don't know what you answered. Because I just tune out and I'm waiting, waiting for you to finish.

01:16:29

Well, it gives you the answer right there, Matt. It says baptism. You just ignore what scripture says.

01:16:34

Hold on. No, I don't ignore the scriptures. You said what was canceled was the rituals and the ordinances, right?

01:16:40

That's right. Okay. Can you show me from the text that it says it's the rituals and the ordinances that were canceled?

01:16:47

Well, I have to show you from that, from that passage right there, I have to show you that?

01:16:53

I mean, are you living under the old covenant right now? Are you engaged in these rituals and ordinances?

01:16:59

You're practicing it? I'm just asking you to demonstrate. Well, then we're in agreement, right? We're both in agreement that they're done away with.

01:17:04

So why would you even ask me that question? I'm asking you to back up what you assert. Please show it to me from that scripture.

01:17:11

That's what it means. Yeah. It's not in that particular scripture right there.

01:17:18

It doesn't say specifically that. If it's not there, then you just interpret it according to your preferences and your understanding, what you think, what you wanted it to be.

01:17:28

Well, I'm doing exactly what you're doing. You're interpreting it. Not only my interpretation is correct and yours is wrong.

01:17:33

Well, I'm just going with what it says. Having canceled the bond, what's the bond that was canceled?

01:17:41

What do you think the bond is? What was canceled?

01:17:47

I don't know. I don't know. I'd have to go ahead and look at the Greek and see exactly what it's saying and look at different passages.

01:17:55

In the Greek, it's keragraphon, which is a hapics legomena. It only occurs right there. Comes from the, it's a compound word, ker, hand, graphe, writing.

01:18:04

It means handwriting, a handwritten document of legal indebtedness. Okay. That's referring to the old covenant.

01:18:13

Then it's the old covenant. Let's just go work with it. Well, if you want to say that. So it was canceled at the cross, right? Yes. Okay.

01:18:21

So the old covenant was canceled at the cross. That's what you're saying? The old covenant? But I thought you said it was the rituals and ordinances.

01:18:27

So which one is it now? Well, the old covenant was made up of rituals and ordinances.

01:18:33

Okay. So the whole old covenant is canceled, which means it's no longer valid? Yeah, it's no longer valid.

01:18:40

It's been replaced by the new covenant. Are the 10 commandments still valid? Like, don't lie, don't steal.

01:18:46

Well, the 10 commandments are still valid because Jesus said to keep the commandments. Which commandments? The 10 commandments.

01:18:53

Where'd he say that? Well, see, he doesn't specifically have to say the 10 commandments because the church is what gave us the

01:19:00

Bible. And the church is the one that says that he was referring to the 10 commandments. Jesus either said that or he didn't say that.

01:19:08

Well, he did say that because the church says he did. And the early church father said he did.

01:19:15

And so therefore we know that he did. Show me the verse where he says, keep the law. I don't have to show you the verse unless you can show me the

01:19:22

Bible where it says that all of the teachings of the Christian faith can only be contained in the Bible. You said that Jesus said to keep the 10 commandments.

01:19:31

I'm asking you to, you said Jesus said it. I'm asking you to show me the verse where he said it. Well, I just told you, I don't have to show you in the

01:19:37

Bible unless the Bible says that all the teachings of the Christian faith must be contained in the Bible. And I'll tell you what, since you're not able to answer the question and the thing that you assert, and you're always like this, you're always argumentative.

01:19:49

You're always so difficult. We're just gonna move along. When you go look for the verse, when you're ready to define that verse that Jesus said what you said, great.

01:19:59

But if not, you need to retract it. So let's, hey, Rob, I mean, Robert's here.

01:20:06

How are you doing, buddy? Hey, good, good. Okay, everybody. Now I know what's going on.

01:20:13

I don't know, the other guy's name is Rob too. I don't know. Yeah, traditional Catholics, we go back years.

01:20:19

So we go back years. So he's like that. Traditional Catholics are just incredible to deal with.

01:20:25

He in particular, and I'm trying to be nice to him. Do you know how many of them have canceled me out of Facebook?

01:20:31

Oh my God. Oh man, it's just, I asked him a question and he goes on to pontificate.

01:20:36

It's just, it's just a practical question. Anyway, so everybody, Rob is the guy, Roman Catholic.

01:20:43

Treat him nicely. Everybody will. But he's the Roman Catholic guy who runs that, you do run that large thing, okay.

01:20:54

And we've got a Facebook. I wish we could link this, but we still haven't figured out how to do that.

01:21:01

Well, I know how to do it. You see, I can get this to go straight into yours, but I would, you know,

01:21:07

I'd have to have your username and password that you log in with. Oh, is that what it is? But now I couldn't do that myself by having,

01:21:15

I couldn't, is there a way I could transfer everything? No, you need to create a

01:21:21

StreamYard thing. And I would come into yours. It'd be like this. And then you would just run it.

01:21:28

You just click on me and I'm in and we're talking. And then that way it goes on to the StreamYard. That's the way to do it.

01:21:33

All right. Right, right, right, right. It's tough to figure out. You know, I helped you before and I'm not mad at you or anything, because it was a lot, you know.

01:21:41

No, there's a lot of stuff to, yeah. My mind, it just disappears. And since you're a Roman Catholic, I can see why it's difficult.

01:21:48

There you go. I accept it. Now, that was a joke, folks. And he got the joke.

01:21:55

And I know that Catholics are gonna say, who's insulting you? Exactly. You know, it's like, oh, man.

01:22:02

They don't. Yeah. Isn't that the very definition of a joke? It insults one other person, at least.

01:22:11

There we go. Someone says, finally, a Catholic. Yeah, there you go. Oh, that was the other guy,

01:22:16

I think. Anyway, so Rob's a real nice guy and he doesn't yell and scream at me if I say something he doesn't like.

01:22:24

No. So, and the same vice versa. If he says, he thinks I'm wrong, which I've seen him tackle some of the things

01:22:31

I've said. He goes against what I say. Okay, let's talk. Right. That's how it works.

01:22:36

The other guy seems to want a pontificate, like you said. He wants to be able to tell you what he's believing, but he's not, you know, inclusive.

01:22:45

He's not incorporating your information into the discussion, you know?

01:22:51

Yeah, that guy, that's a bad representation of Catholicism. No, I don't think he's a, you know,

01:22:57

I don't think, well, I don't know, that's just my opinion. He follows the SSPX, the

01:23:03

Holy Family, you know, that guy from New York that -

01:23:09

Yeah, yeah. He's not a brother. He lives in his mother's basement.

01:23:15

He's not a, I read about the guy already. I mean, he's - Yeah, people have said that he would destroy me in the, get him on the show.

01:23:23

Come on in. Give me a break. Give me a break. The guy doesn't know crap. He doesn't even know, he doesn't even,

01:23:30

I don't even know if he has a theology degree. I don't even know how he could afford some of the commercials that he puts up, but.

01:23:40

Well, I don't have a theology degree either. To be totally honest with you.

01:23:49

Yeah. Yeah. I have to do a lot of research to get to the

01:23:54

Greek. Like, you know it off the top of your heads, Matt. I mean, it's, that's amazing. No, I've forgotten a lot, but, you know,

01:24:05

I had four and a half years of it in college and seminary. But I'll tell you, it was hard.

01:24:14

And, you know, I can look at a Greek text and I've forgotten a lot of the vocabulary now, but I can just go, oh, that's what that's basically talking about.

01:24:20

Sometimes I understand it really well. Sometimes I say, I have no clue what it's saying. And that's to go into the Greek and then look.

01:24:25

But because I know, you know, the accusative, the dative, the genitive, the nominative.

01:24:31

And I know parts of speech, declensions. I know conjugations and some vocabulary.

01:24:38

I can figure things out, but I'm not that good at all. But you know,

01:24:44

I got tools. Let me ask you a question. A lot of Catholics will say that in Acts 9 .31,

01:24:52

the word, the church that's being used in that verse, the church throughout, is translated in Greek as Ecclesia Catholos, which is

01:25:06

Catholic church in, I guess, in English. How do you - Oh, I see what they're doing. Tell me what your perspective is on that.

01:25:14

Okay. What I could do is I'll share my screen with you, okay? You guys could see.

01:25:20

Okay. Let me go into this. I see that splashed all the time everywhere.

01:25:29

Okay. All right. Now, so this right here, under this right here, this blue area right here, this is how it works.

01:25:43

Excuse me, 9 .31. So what I do is I click here, church.

01:25:49

Now, what site are you on? Are you, is this a site or is this - This is my Bible program,

01:25:54

Logos. Oh, okay. Okay, I see. It's the best there is. Okay. In fact, watch this.

01:26:00

I got to invest in it. Watch this. I can go, I have a Catholic arrangement. I'll get back to where we were here.

01:26:08

And in the Catholic arrangement, Catechism of the Catholic Church. Yeah, I can see it now.

01:26:13

It's a little - Yeah, I get all this stuff. I can go into Islam. Oh, wow.

01:26:19

And it'll go in, it'll do, here's the Quran, different Qurans and commentaries.

01:26:25

Different translations into Arabic stuff, too. Yeah. I can do stuff on the Septuagint, Jehovah's Witnesses, eschatology, philosophy.

01:26:34

If I click philosophy, then I can have all these books. So what does the Greek say in that there, in that phrase?

01:26:42

We'll get back to it. And - I'm really curious about that. Yeah, it's, yeah, they don't understand what they're saying.

01:26:49

And I understand why they're saying it, but it's wrong. So this is what we're having here.

01:26:54

I'm going to get this going again. Because the church throughout would sort of, you know -

01:27:00

It's not a good argument. Yeah, it would sort of demonstrate universality, but it's,

01:27:07

I don't know if it translates into Greek the way I said it does. Here it is right here. Can you read that?

01:27:13

I don't think so. It's all kind of small. It's very garbled. Let me do this.

01:27:19

It's not magnified big enough, you know? Okay, how's that? A little better.

01:27:25

A little better. Best to marry, enjoy. Okay, I can see a little bit. So here's, so the church throughout all -

01:27:30

Oh, there it is. Yeah. Okay. It's the church throughout, yeah. So this is the Greek, ekklesia and kath.

01:27:36

Okay. Which just means throughout. So what we have is ekklesia katha, or ekklesia kath, basically.

01:27:44

Okay, now they're saying that means a Catholic church, because ekklesia means church. Ekklesia means, it's just church.

01:27:51

Kath just means throughout. Wow. That's all it means. And it's not catholic.

01:27:58

No, no, it's not, but they're saying that it means katholos. I don't know why it's missing the

01:28:05

O -L -E -S, but. Oh, they got it wrong. See, let me explain something here. So I can write this out.

01:28:11

Let me do this. Oh, my wife just closed my door.

01:28:17

Okay, so in Greek, well, we do it in English. Watch this. This is a actor.

01:28:23

I'll make it bigger. Okay. You can see this is a noun, and the noun is declining.

01:28:40

This is called declension. Okay. This is an illustration of it.

01:28:47

It's called declension. Nouns decline, verbs parse. Okay.

01:28:54

Actor, actors, actress, actresses. This is the basic root.

01:29:01

Okay. Right, right. And so we have words like blue, bluish.

01:29:11

You can even say something has been blued. Okay. It still means the same thing, generally.

01:29:16

It's still blue, you know. It's, they're different forms. They're called cognates. Okay. Now, so what we have here in this is ecclesia has its way of declining and kath, which is from kata.

01:29:36

It's the verb, it's the word kata, a preposition down here in the bottom left. That's the word it is.

01:29:44

It's two, five, nine, six. And two, five, nine, six is the

01:29:50

Strong's Concordance where a guy named Strong's years and years and years ago went through and took every single

01:29:55

Greek and Hebrew word of the entire Bible and assigned numbers to them. And so that it's a great tool.

01:30:03

So I just go here and click on this and it shows up here. And so if I click the lunida kata, markers of a point in time, which is simultaneous of the overlaps at another point of time.

01:30:17

So - It doesn't say katha, it says kath, K -A -T -H. Yes, because it's a cognate. Okay. It's just another form of the, this is the lemma, the lemma right here.

01:30:29

That's what that is. It means the root word, like actor. And this would be like actors, actors or actresses.

01:30:38

Okay. It's the same thing, it's a different form, right? Right. So actor and actresses means the same thing, but a little bit different.

01:30:47

Because one is - But what does kath mean in English? It doesn't. It's not that, it's not in English.

01:30:53

It just means, it's a Greek word. Right. That's it. It just means through.

01:31:01

Now, I'm interested if the Eastern Orthodox understand that as a, like, you know, that it means

01:31:08

Catholic church. And I wonder what the Eastern Orthodox would say, you know? Well - Because they're

01:31:13

Greeks, right? But it doesn't say Catholic. But isn't it also a declension?

01:31:21

You know - No, no, no, no. What I should be saying, no, the word katha, from best of my recollection, does not go down into the word

01:31:28

Catholic, which would be adding a lambda, which is the L. It's just not there, okay?

01:31:36

So I could, theoretically, if we can find this, declension of, for example,

01:31:43

Ecclesia. And see if I can find a place that shows a declension chart.

01:31:51

Okay. And in Greek. And I'm looking for, you know, so I could probably find it right now,

01:31:58

I just don't have it. Right, right, right. So - I just thought I'd ask about it. But so, when they say it means

01:32:04

Catholic in the Greek, no, it's not what it means. The word here, all, is halas, or alas, okay?

01:32:13

And there's different words in Greek for all. Yeah, you can see it says halas, right? Kathaholos, katholos.

01:32:21

Kathaholos, but it's two different words. It means through, all. Throughout - See, throughout means, throughout says kath, and then all means holos.

01:32:33

If you put it together, honestly, you know, instead of saying - Yeah, what they're trying to do is make something, thereby forcing, so this is what the cults do.

01:32:41

And I'm not trying to be mean, but the cults do this kind of thing. They'll go into the Greek, and they'll say, see this word over here, this word over here, put them together, and this is what you get, that's why we're true.

01:32:49

That's not how you do things. It's not the word butterfly. Butterfly is, you know, butter and a fly, but it comes to this one thing, butterfly means something different.

01:33:01

Well - But one, you know, from the perspective of saying church, throughout, and then space, all, as church, you know, universal.

01:33:14

Yeah, they're actually reading too much into it, because it doesn't say universal.

01:33:19

But throughout all, couldn't mean universal because throughout everywhere is a universality, isn't it?

01:33:26

I mean, in a sense, if you wanted to define it, yes, or synonymous. I believe the word is katholikos, and I don't know if it occurs in the

01:33:42

Bible. So let me do this, let me do this, hold on. Okay, let's see.

01:33:49

That's an interesting thing that I brought up, so I'm just curious about it. I see it everywhere.

01:33:55

Yeah, it's not a good argument. It just doesn't work, okay? But if they, you know, but if they bring in that, you know,

01:34:07

Ecclesia, which is church. Church, right. You know, and then they bring in kath, and then they bring in all, meaning a whole

01:34:16

S, and they bring it together. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you see their mindset?

01:34:23

Yeah, they're inventing something that's not there. Well, they're not inventing this. They're actually seeing those three words together.

01:34:31

Yes, but they're inventing. And they're putting them together. But what they're inventing is by changing the two words into one in English, by saying kath and holos, holos.

01:34:42

They could, they could. But it's incorrect. In Greek, there's at least two words that I know of for the word other, or like another, and other.

01:34:52

And it's holos and etheros, holos. Then what does the word in Greek Catholic mean?

01:34:58

I mean, it came from Ignatius of Antioch. We do read that in his letters. So what is the origin of that word then?

01:35:05

I believe it means universal. Right, it does. And even if it, even if, the problem is, let's just say it says the church is universal.

01:35:16

What they're doing is they're saying, see, we're taking a Greek word that means universal. And we translate it into the, we interpret it into the

01:35:23

English as Catholic. And our word, our name is Catholic. So therefore we're the universal church. Mm -hmm.

01:35:29

Well, there's, let me tell you what they're telling. They're saying that it's both an adjective and a pronoun.

01:35:37

Just like the name, just like the name of Peter, for instance. He could have a little stone.

01:35:43

I know you call it a little stone. He could have a little, there's a meaning behind every name, in other words.

01:35:49

So they're saying basically that this type of language can have also a pronoun meaning and also an adjective meaning, you know.

01:35:59

Depending on its context and its usage, yeah. Right. And that's what

01:36:05

I just brought up. I just brought it up. So the word for basically for universal is

01:36:11

Catholic. Is Catholic, I looked it up on there or something. Catholicos, Catholicos.

01:36:19

Oh, wow. Okay. Where did you get that? I just looked up.

01:36:25

I looked up. I forgot how I did it. I found it. Let me just give you the.

01:36:33

It's pretty interesting. And here's the link, okay, to what I found, okay. Let me write it down for myself.

01:36:39

All right. So you go there, you can see the Greek word. That's a really good research guide you got.

01:36:48

I can research like you wouldn't believe. How much is that? Is it like 150 bucks or 200?

01:36:55

It's more like it's hundreds of dollars. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, I've used it for 30 years or however long.

01:37:03

Oh, I see. A long time. Very useful. But so what we have is Kappa. We have the

01:37:09

Greek. For constant. Let me get over to it. Where'd it go? Okay.

01:37:16

It's right there by next to that, yeah. So what I'm gonna do is put this Greek word in here into the stream.

01:37:23

Yeah. Okay. So Kathalikos, there it is. So it's a Kappa, Alpha, Theta, Omicron.

01:37:31

K -A -T -H, the Theta is a TH. Omicron, which is an O. And when we go into the

01:37:38

Greek right here, there is no Kathalikos. It does not, it's not there in the

01:37:43

New Testament. It's not there. Okay. Okay. Okay. So what they're doing is they're saying this.

01:37:49

They're saying that we have Kathalikos, and then we have Kos, which is a different word, and Alas, which is another word.

01:37:58

And because they sound similar, then they're putting them together to try and - They are.

01:38:03

They're putting it together, absolutely. Just like, well, the church throughout all is also kind of, you know, separated.

01:38:10

Church is separated, throughout is separated, and all is separated. So, you know, I guess,

01:38:15

I don't know. They're saying that those are the, I'm trying to figure out what my, the

01:38:22

English - But look at this. So let's look at this actually. Check this out. This is the word

01:38:27

Ekklesia. Yeah. All right. And it's G1577.

01:38:33

That's Greek. That's church, yeah. Click it, and here it is, right? And it says, called out, which is from Ekkla, yeah,

01:38:44

Ekkaleo. I know, right. Ekkaleo. So that the, or the, oh,

01:38:50

I just clicked on the word. I can't see it too well. I can just see your, yeah. And here it says Eklektoi.

01:38:57

Okay. Now, what's interesting is, let me show you something. See if I can find this.

01:39:08

I got this. Oh, dang it. I had it right there before.

01:39:15

I've got so many other things I got going on. But I've done the research on that word.

01:39:22

And I'll just tell you, I don't get into finding it. No, that's fine, that's fine. So the, here, watch this.

01:39:29

So that's the word Ekklesia, okay? E -K -K -L, all right? Right, right, right. For example, if you go here to Ephesians 1, 4, he chose us, okay?

01:39:43

Now look, it's Ekleg, Eklegamai, and it's 1586, where before it's 1550 something.

01:39:52

They're closely related words to be chosen. E -K -L, and here the church is

01:40:01

E -K -K -L. Right, it's different, they're variations, right? Variations, but they're different words, but they're closely related.

01:40:09

This is 1577, and this is 1586.

01:40:18

So if we go, for example, 1577, Eklesia, we see that there's lots of words that are similar.

01:40:29

And I can read them, you can see them in there. Ekla -o,

01:40:35

Ekle -o, Eklesia, Eklino, Ekl -o, Ekl -o, and the ek means to be called to the out, getting it out of.

01:40:44

The church is the called out one. I'm getting a bunch of messages on my messenger saying you're not responding to anybody.

01:40:56

I'm not responding to anybody? I don't see anybody other than Charlie Spine, some guy.

01:41:02

Well, here's the thing, they can be on. They can be on, tell me, I think they're not.

01:41:08

Oh, you know what, I'm getting private messages. I didn't see them before, I remember, so let me go to this.

01:41:14

There's gotta be another way they're getting this, they're sending these things, and we're not seeing that all the time.

01:41:19

Because I moved into this other section, and I didn't realize there was other comments coming in. See, there's a word

01:41:26

Catholics in the Bible, okay, whatever. Do it like that, it says private comments. So if we're to go over to your thing, and then now

01:41:41

I have to leave this thing that we're talking in and go over here. And then

01:41:46

I'm looking, I don't see what they're saying. Yeah, Fredo, yeah, that's right, let's see that.

01:41:56

It's interesting why I can't, I don't know why. Okay, ask

01:42:02

Matt, wait, Fredo has asked me to ask Matt the following questions. Matthew 9, 16,

01:42:07

Jesus was asked, what good deed? Want me to answer those? Yeah, I mean, if you want to, I mean, I don't wanna bombard you with everything.

01:42:15

What good deed must I do to have eternal life? All right, let me answer that, okay, let's go here.

01:42:23

All right. Well, Mark, is it Mark Ferlet, is that who it is, or? Mark Ferlet, yeah. Okay, he really wanted to, he thought.

01:42:31

I'll answer him. Yeah, okay. So a good teacher said, what must

01:42:40

I do? Now, he was a student of the law, but nevertheless, we won't get into it, okay.

01:42:47

So what we see here, what good thing shall I do to obtain eternal life? Is he saying, what work do

01:42:53

I have to do to be saved? Even the Catholics don't believe that you do good work to get saved, okay.

01:43:00

He said, why are you asking me about what is good? There's only one who is good. You wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.

01:43:09

So he said, keep the commandments. And notice what Jesus is responding to. A lot of people miss this. The man says, what do

01:43:16

I do to obtain eternal life? Keep the commandments, right? I'm gonna tell these guys to be a little nicer because they're being really, really mean.

01:43:24

Oh, I don't know who, what's going, I mean, I can only do so much. I know you can't,

01:43:30

I know, I know. You go ahead with your stuff. I try to keep up with them and then they accuse me if I, anyway, so he says, if you want, keep the commandments.

01:43:41

So let me ask you, do you inherit eternal life by keeping the commandments? No. No, no.

01:43:49

So why is Jesus saying this to the guy? Because he knows who this guy is. The man says, look, don't, you know,

01:43:55

Jesus said, don't commit murder, adultery, steal, et cetera. Love your neighbor as yourself, et cetera. And the man said, all these things

01:44:03

I've kept, what am I still lacking? If you think about it, that's kind of arrogant. Well, catch it all.

01:44:10

Yeah, I know, exactly. And he says, well, there's one more thing. There's one more thing.

01:44:15

Yeah, just a little thing. Go sell all your possessions and give to the poor. That's what it means to love your neighbor as yourself.

01:44:22

Well, you know what, you know how they interpret that. They interpret that that's what Jesus meant to that person alone, because we can't, you know.

01:44:31

That's right. And I would agree with that. Riches aren't bad and it's in and of themselves.

01:44:37

Right, I would agree. I totally agree. He's saying to this man who wants to know what good work he's got to do to be saved is to keep the commandments.

01:44:45

And he goes, what I'm doing is, what Jesus is saying is, no, you're not. Because he proves he's saying you're not by you do all this and the man went away grieving.

01:44:55

He owned a lot. Jesus knew he owned a lot and he's putting him on the spot. You want to be justified by the law?

01:45:01

Then obey it. He couldn't. If anything, this shows that you can't be saved by the law.

01:45:08

Hmm. Okay. Well, I don't think, I wouldn't believe that either. I agree with you.

01:45:14

I don't think, you know, I think what Jesus is saying more is relational. Because remember he's saying also follow me at the end.

01:45:22

So there's gotta be a relationship, you know. But what he was looking at was what do

01:45:28

I have to do? What do I do to eternal life? If I were to ask a Catholic that, what do you do to eternal life?

01:45:35

Well, paragraph 2068, faith, baptism and observance of the commandments. Yeah. Same thing.

01:45:47

So the second thing he says, if yes, but do I agree with Jesus answer? What kind of a question is that?

01:45:53

No, I don't agree with Jesus. You know, wow. If you do agree, how can you reconcile Jesus answer with your statement?

01:46:00

I'm saying that keeping the commandments is not what saves us. Because keeping the commandments is not what saves us.

01:46:05

The Roman Catholics even agree to that. Unless this guy wants to say that he. The best way to answer that is

01:46:13

Al Capone had a soup kitchen. Does that mean that that saved him? Really? Yeah. Wow.

01:46:19

I mean, I use the same arguments that you're doing for that argument, yeah. Yeah. So he's, you know, no disrespect meant to Mark but he's not understanding the issues here in the text.

01:46:30

And he doesn't understand that Catholicism does not teach. It doesn't teach that you're saved by your works either. Yeah, I don't think he.

01:46:38

It adds works to salvation. It doesn't say you're saved by your works. It adds works to faith. All right. Number, the other one,

01:46:45

Ephesians 2 .10, it says. James 2 .14, I think. What is it? 2 .14 or 2 .16?

01:46:50

For what? 2 .14, for the works thing, you know. Oh, I can go through James if you want and explain that.

01:46:56

That's easy, just to give a context. But let's get, he has more questions here. He says, in Ephesians 2 .10,

01:47:03

it says that God has prepared good works for us that we should walk in them. If we don't walk in them, could we be saved? Now the problem with that verse or his use of the verse is he doesn't understand something.

01:47:14

Again, no disrespect meant. It's what it says. We're created in Christ.

01:47:21

For we are his workmanship created in Christ. In Christ is a term of federal headship.

01:47:28

Now I've written about this. Let me get to my outlines on Catholicism and go through, that's

01:47:41

Ephesians 2. You can tell

01:47:46

I do a lot of research, a lot of work. So this is what it says, in Christ Jesus, what it says, term of federal headship.

01:47:54

This is the teaching that the male represents a descendants. That's a phrase, in Christ. And to prove this,

01:48:01

Christ represented us on the cross. So when he died, we died with him, Romans 6 .8. We were crucified with him,

01:48:07

Romans 6 .6. We are made alive and it says, I should add the, I'll just do this because we're doing it right here.

01:48:13

In Christ, that's what it says. We're made alive in Christ. The veil is removed in Christ.

01:48:21

So crisis is this phrase that's used in the Bible to describe a relationship of salvation, of representation.

01:48:30

We are made new creatures in Christ. Kind of like having a relationship with Jesus. It means you're saved.

01:48:39

Well, it doesn't because you could be in, yeah, it does. I'll just leave it for that now, okay?

01:48:44

So there's either male or female in Christ, all right? The works are prepared for those who are in Christ, okay?

01:48:52

They were once crucified with Christ and died with Christ. So when we go back and look at this, it means that these are the people who are saved.

01:49:02

This is the people who are regenerate. They're elect, they're called. And those people, we have workmanship.

01:49:08

So to say, well, what if we don't do them? It's a non -sequitur.

01:49:15

It doesn't follow because we are gonna walk in them because it's what God has ordained that we will walk in.

01:49:21

And check this out, Ephesians 1, 4, just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, he predestined us to adoption of his sons through Jesus Christ himself, according to the kind intention of his will.

01:49:36

But God called us. Zechariah, Zechariah 11. Ephesians, Ephesians 1, 4, and 5.

01:49:43

Also, we have attained an inheritance having been predestined according to his purpose, who works all things after the counsel of his will.

01:49:51

All things are worked after the counsel of his will. So we are called, and that's the

01:49:56

Greek word, ekklegamai, which is out of that same root area of ekklesia, the called out ones.

01:50:03

He chose us. The church is comprised of the chosen ones in him, in Christ's representation before the foundation of the world.

01:50:15

And then we're predestined. See, he predestined us, that's what it says. Now, when we go back to Ephesians 2, 10, we understand what the phrase in Christ means.

01:50:27

It means the ones who are chosen from the foundation of the world who are saved and rectified and everything in Christ.

01:50:36

Right, right. That's what's going on there. So they can't not walk in the works. Not again.

01:50:44

And then he says, how do you reconcile it with Matthew 7, 21 that says, if we do not do the will of God? Okay, let's go to Matthew 7, 21 in my work, in my unit, my thing.

01:50:56

Okay, Matthew 7, 21. Okay. And everyone who says to me,

01:51:05

Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father, who's in heaven. We have to ask, what's the will of the father?

01:51:15

I actually wonder, does anybody actually ask the question and then go searching? Well, I did.

01:51:21

And the phrase occurs in two places. This is the will of him who sent me that of all that he's given me,

01:51:29

I lose nothing. The will of the father is that Jesus not lose anybody, but it raised it up on the last day.

01:51:36

For this is the will of my father, that everyone who believes and holds a son will have eternal life. Okay.

01:51:44

The will of the father is that we believe in the Lord Jesus. Furthermore, if we read the context,

01:51:50

Matthew 7, 22, 23, many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, do we not prophesy in your name and your name casts out demons and your name perform many miracles?

01:51:57

And I will declare to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you practice lawlessness.

01:52:03

Jesus is condemning those who appeal to faith and works for their salvation. Okay. Because on that day is a day of judgment.

01:52:12

Now, see, we are supposed to do the will of the father, but the will of the father is that we trust in Christ.

01:52:19

And what people are doing is saying, and in the very next verses, the very next, says the people are gonna say on the day of judgment, look what we did in your name.

01:52:28

And he condemns them. Yeah, he does. Why? Because they're going with faith and works.

01:52:34

Let me show you something here. Watch this. This is Luke 18.

01:52:39

But there is no faith that they're demonstrating. They're demonstrating works alone only because they're saying, look at what we did.

01:52:47

In your name. It says in your name. Okay.

01:52:52

Wow, okay. All right, so let's go here. I think the assumption is more focused than words.

01:52:59

Well, but it's both, because look, it says here, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, they believe.

01:53:07

Right, right, they believe. In your name, by his authority. They believe in him, exercise his authority, and they're damned.

01:53:18

They are, they are, because I never knew you. But the question is, who normally speaks that way?

01:53:25

Jesus does. Catholics don't normally go out and cast demons out.

01:53:31

You know what I mean? That's usually something that you would hear from an evangelical, right? I mean, we went out and did this and that.

01:53:39

Things, I mean. It could be. Sure, it could be. It could be. I don't know. It could be anybody. It could be

01:53:44

Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses. It could be anybody who says, look, Lord, I need to be in heaven because, look,

01:53:50

I believe in you. I did this stuff in your name. See, look what I, I believe and I did. They're condemned.

01:53:57

He says, I never knew you. Yes. Now watch this. I never knew you. Watch this. My sheep hear my voice and I know them, okay?

01:54:09

And I know them and they follow me, all right? I know them.

01:54:15

Watch this. However, at that time when you did not know

01:54:21

God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know

01:54:27

God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you've turned your back, et cetera?

01:54:34

See, now you're known by God. If you're known by God, it means you're saved. If you're not known by God, it means you're not saved.

01:54:41

They were never believers, never saved to begin with. And what's the evidence of that?

01:54:48

The evidence was their desire to be saved by their faith and their works.

01:54:54

Mm, so that's where it goes back, okay. Let's watch this.

01:55:00

All right. And he also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous.

01:55:07

Now notice how he worked with what Luke says. They trusted in themselves that they were righteous.

01:55:15

And viewed others with contempt. Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, the other a tax collector.

01:55:21

The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself. God, I thank you, but I'm not like other people, swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax gatherer.

01:55:31

I fast twice a week, I pay tithes of all that I get. So he's a man of God, he believes in God, and he's following the law.

01:55:40

He's keeping the commandments. He's not swindling people, he's not unjust, he's not an adulterer.

01:55:46

He fasts twice a week, he pays tithes. He's an observer of the law. He's before God, and notice what

01:55:53

Jesus says. He trusted in himself. These are the ones who trusted in themselves that they're righteous.

01:56:01

Look what I do. Now, we can get a Condon congruent miracle later.

01:56:09

What happened? Verse 13, this is what's important. The tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift his eyes to heaven, was beating his breast saying,

01:56:20

God, be merciful to me, the sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other.

01:56:28

Now, wait a minute. What did the man do? What did the tax gatherer do to earn, to get, maintain his salvation?

01:56:37

Nothing. Just cried out to God. That's an act of faith, that's all it is.

01:56:49

You see? Okay. Now, I'm looking at a scripture translation while you're telling me that.

01:56:55

Is that okay? You don't mind, do you? Sure, of course. I just wanted to see something, what it says in the

01:57:00

Strongs, you know? Sure. If you have a different version, I could probably put it up here.

01:57:06

No, I mean, I think it's the same. It actually says the same thing. Yeah. I didn't really know that, you know?

01:57:14

And I took theology in Marquette. I graduated. That was a long time ago, like you did.

01:57:23

Well, this - I don't remember a lot of stuff either. So, I mean, believe me. You know,

01:57:28

I have a lot of scripture memorized because it's what I do for a living. Yes, yeah. All this stuff. That's right, that's right.

01:57:35

And I try to - I don't know why, but I'm a little upset at Marquette that they didn't get us through memorizing scripture either because I went through a lot of biblical studies and I didn't, you know, they didn't -

01:57:48

Well, it's hard. It's hard to memorize scripture. Yeah, it is. You have to memorize it all the time.

01:57:53

You're working on - I mean, I'm on the radio five hours a week. I'm here teaching. So for me, it's going to be staying.

01:57:59

I get it. All right, so I can get back to what he was saying in - Yeah, please, please. Go ahead. All right. Okay. So I did that.

01:58:08

In John 6, 51, okay. Jesus says the bread he wants to give us to eat is the flesh that he will give for the life of the world.

01:58:21

He gave his flesh for the life of the world on the cross. Was Jesus' flesh on the cross real or merely symbolic?

01:58:27

It was real. If you answer real, then if Jesus was talking about giving us his real flesh on the cross as the bread, which we were to eat in verse 51, do you then claim he was speaking of his symbolic flesh when he was speaking?

01:58:40

Oh, yeah. Oh. And I - No, no, it makes more sense now.

01:58:46

I didn't really bring it together like you did. Yeah, there you go. I think it's a fair question. I should have been more honest with you about it, but I wasn't.

01:58:54

I mean, it's my fault. Let me respond. So what does the text say?

01:59:00

I'm the living bread. Okay. Now, here's a question. Is Jesus actually bread?

01:59:09

Okay. No, he's not. So he's speaking allegorically, metaphorically, representatively.

01:59:16

Yeah, I know. He did. Okay. I'm the living bread that came down out of heaven.

01:59:22

Now that's legit. That's real. If we have figurative living bread, came out of heaven, that's,

01:59:27

I'd say it's a, for real, it's literal. Anyone who eats of this bread. It's literal, yeah.

01:59:35

What eats of what? Of him? Is it literal or figurative? Well, it would have to be,

01:59:43

I'm trying to figure out what the Greek word is. Well, I can show you, but the thing is that if anyone eats his bread, the living bread, so the bread he's referring to is living bread, right?

01:59:54

That came out of heaven. So he's speaking symbolically. I mean, I'm not saying only symbolically, but there's symbolism here.

02:00:03

Okay. So what's he saying? And here, look, watch this. Matthew 6, John 6, 51. I'm gonna get to my notes.

02:00:10

I'll be releasing these notes sometime too. Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing them. Thought I had that done already.

02:00:19

Looked at that, but I guess not. Matthew. No, John. Oh, I'm doing it, John. No, John.

02:00:26

651, 51, Eucharist. Okay. Come on. All right. Living bread.

02:00:31

Okay, here's my notes. Was Jesus' flesh on the cross real or symbolic? Jesus' flesh on the cross was real.

02:00:37

Cause it's a common question that they'll ask. It's a common question, yeah. Yeah. So he says he is the door in John 10, seven and nine.

02:00:45

The good shepherd, John 10, 11. The light of the world, the true vine, the resurrection and the life, the first and the last.

02:00:51

Right. Well, he speaks, he does speak literally, and he speaks figuratively.

02:00:57

But the interesting thing is though, he doesn't, when he says, amen, amen.

02:01:03

Okay, that is the catchphrase. When he says that word, those two words, whenever you look throughout scripture, he always follows those words by explaining what he's trying to say.

02:01:17

Truly, truly, that's right. That's what

02:01:22

I try to bring out in other Protestants too, and I don't get much response for that.

02:01:30

Because when he said, for instance, in John 3, 16, when he's explaining the

02:01:36

Nicodemus, he's saying truly, truly. You know, when he says, well, can a man get into a woman's womb and get back out?

02:01:44

And when Jesus is saying, you gotta be born of water and the spirit, he's saying, amen, amen. Yeah, I believe the water, there's a womb.

02:01:51

That's not a problem. Well, I know that's what you're saying. Yeah, but you said you believe that, but the thing is, is there can't be any way anybody can be born otherwise.

02:01:59

So Jesus can't be, you know. But besides that, he's explaining. You see what

02:02:04

I'm saying? Whereas in John, I don't know, John 6, 6, 6? 651.

02:02:10

All right, he's saying the same thing, and yet he's saying, unless you,

02:02:15

I shouldn't drink my blood. So he's saying what the bread is. You have to, but what does it mean to eat the daily bread, the bread that comes, the living bread out of heaven?

02:02:25

That's the, I guess that's the $68 ,000 point, you know. That's right. What does it mean?

02:02:31

Well, the Catholics are gonna interpret it one way. The Protestants are gonna interpret it another way. Well, not all

02:02:36

Protestants are accurate. Well, the thing is, all Protestants are not unanimous on it, because Lutheranism is about -

02:02:42

That's correct. Where they come from, you know. Obviously, there's various, you know. It's gotta be this, and it's gotta be this, you know.

02:02:48

That's right. There's a variety. Right, there's a variety, right. It's substantive, it's a substantive from the verse, and also there's the, you know, the side of the reality of, you know.

02:03:00

Well, let me ask you a question here. I don't know what you're doing, but I don't know what, yeah. Okay. The text doesn't say it, but when Jesus instituted the supper, did he eat the supper with the disciples?

02:03:11

I will not eat of the fruit until I eat it in the kingdom of heaven, Jesus said. He says, I will not eat it again.

02:03:18

Again, again. Does that mean he was eating it right there, and then he won't eat it again? He may very well have.

02:03:23

Or does it mean, because it doesn't say, or does it mean that he wasn't gonna eat it, and says,

02:03:28

I won't eat it again? Either one's possible. I'm looking at the scriptures right now, because I'm trying to figure it out myself, because I don't know what it says.

02:03:39

No, yeah, you got it. Okay, yeah. Yeah, he says that, right. So it could be either one. Yeah, yeah.

02:03:44

But if it means that he had eaten it right then, then would that, from the Catholic perspective, would it mean that he was eating his own flesh and drinking his own blood?

02:03:53

Well, now, that's an interesting dilemma, isn't it? It's a question to ask. But it's something to think about, right?

02:04:00

Yes, it is. But it doesn't necessarily, see, the thing is - The interesting thing is, is that, would he be eating himself, or would he be partaking of?

02:04:14

You see the problem? But the way out of it is to say that the text does not say that he ate, that he ate, where is it?

02:04:27

Yeah, it doesn't say he ate it. I will not drink of the fruit. Take, share this among yourselves. Okay.

02:04:34

Well, he says, I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I say to you,

02:04:39

I shall never eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God. So he wants to eat it.

02:04:44

So we can make the case that he did eat it. Right, right. Could, I don't think it's true. We don't know whether he, he doesn't say,

02:04:51

I mean, you know, there isn't that category, but it does show, it does say that he passed it along, or he gave it to them, it says, because I'm looking at the scripture itself here, but it doesn't, you know.

02:05:05

In the Passover, a supper, the one giving it also eats. That's part of the ritual of the

02:05:12

Passover. That's right. You gotta eat of the flesh, or that, you know, the way they say it, a

02:05:17

Passover lamb, right. Right. So if you could see the questions, and there's no absolute answer,

02:05:24

I don't think, but it becomes an interesting question. But let me get back to - It is an interesting question, it is. I grant it, yeah.

02:05:30

I think it's a category - I don't know, how would Lutherans answer that? I mean, certainly they would have to have an answer.

02:05:36

And I went to a Lutheran college, and I don't know the answer to that question. Did you ask him? If they, if Jesus ate with, with their position is, if he ate with his own body and blood at that point.

02:05:47

Right, I would be interested in knowing what they would think about it, because I don't know, do Methodists believe that or not?

02:05:52

They believe in hyper - Transfiguration. They believe more in symbolism. Is it more of a symbolic?

02:05:59

Yeah. Transsignification, or? The consubstantiation is what the Lutherans have been accused of holding.

02:06:07

But there's another Protestant church, either Methodism or that believes in transsignification.

02:06:14

Oh, I don't even know what that one is then. Oh, really? Okay, all right. Hey, there's a lot of stuff I'm still learning.

02:06:19

No, I'm not saying that you don't know. I'm not trying to be rude. No, it's okay. I'm always picking up on new stuff.

02:06:25

I'm always learning. But check this out though. Here's a problem. Yeah, go ahead. Leviticus 17, 14 says this.

02:06:33

Okay. For as for you, the life of all, for as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life.

02:06:41

Therefore, I said to the sons of Israel, you are not to eat the blood of any flesh. For the life of all the flesh is its blood.

02:06:47

Whoever eats it shall be cut off. Now, the context here in Leviticus 17,

02:06:54

I'll show it to you. Context is with animal sacrifice. Yeah.

02:07:02

So I don't have any problem with saying that that's the context because it talks about animal sacrifices.

02:07:09

Now, but it does say, okay, it does say this in verse 11.

02:07:15

Therefore, I said to the sons of Israel, no person among you may eat blood, nor may any alien who sojourns among you eat blood.

02:07:24

That's verse 12. Sorry, I wanna go to verse 11, but that's good too. For the life of the flesh is in the blood. Does that apply to the human as well?

02:07:32

Yes, it does. But listen, but aren't we going into the Old Testament into the weeds though right now?

02:07:39

No, no. Let me explain. I'll show you why this is important. Aren't we really saying that, okay, this is what it's saying about blood in the

02:07:46

Old Testament, kind of like the Jehovah's Witnesses go to the, you know, different places in the Bible.

02:07:52

You know what I'm saying? I'll put this together for you. I'll put this together for you. I'll show you why it's important. Because it says the life is in the blood and I've given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls.

02:08:03

Now, this includes Christ because the animal sacrifices represented Him. You're not to drink the blood.

02:08:09

Now, it goes on and it's in, you know, any person, an animal who dies, torn by beast.

02:08:14

Now, here's the question. Is it okay for Jews to drink human blood? And that's what they were asking in John 6.

02:08:25

That's why they were offended by that. They say, no, we can't have any of this.

02:08:31

What are you trying to give flesh to eat? They understood it. Right, because they understood that the law prevented them from eating blood.

02:08:40

Right, right. Why didn't Jesus say, listen, hold on, guys. I didn't mean it that way, though. Why didn't

02:08:45

He say that? Oh, that's a very good question. Jesus, okay, here's His answer.

02:08:51

This isn't exactly the answer, but watch this. Okay. His followers along with the 12 began asking

02:08:58

Him about the parables. He was saying to them, to you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables.

02:09:06

So that while seeing, they may see and not perceive. While hearing, they may hear and not understand. Otherwise, they might return to be forgiven.

02:09:12

He speaks in parables. He hides things. He hides things. But He was speaking to all the disciples and wouldn't it have been

02:09:21

His mandate, a divine mandate to make sure that they understood before they left? Ah, well, this is what

02:09:29

He says. He said, it's the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing.

02:09:34

The words I've spoken to you are spirit and life. But He says. Okay. But He says, He's speaking spiritual words to them.

02:09:41

They should know it. And did He not also say, have I been with you so long? You don't even know these things. He didn't answer them directly.

02:09:50

All right, let me give you a spin on this. With regards to, it is the spirit that gives life.

02:09:55

The flesh is useless. Wouldn't that be a way to, from my perspective. Okay. Wouldn't that be a way to say that, you know what?

02:10:04

If you're going to listen to me from a flesh perspective, you're not going to get there.

02:10:10

If you're going to listen to me from a spiritual perspective, you are going to get there. Wouldn't, I mean, you see what I'm saying?

02:10:15

You see what I'm trying to say? That's perfectly legitimate because these words are spiritual words. Right. Which way are we going to take it?

02:10:22

That's right. So which way are we going to take it? So what I'll do with people, when I teach Bible studies, I'll say, look, there's two legitimate ways, sometimes three, sometimes four, but two legitimate ways to interpret this.

02:10:33

This and here. What do we do? Sometimes you can solve it by looking elsewhere. Sometimes you can't.

02:10:39

And so I'll say, what we have to do now is look at other verses that relate to it and then interpret them in harmony.

02:10:47

And so Leviticus 17, that's the only place I'm aware of in scripture.

02:10:53

Actually, there's more, but where it specifically says don't eat blood, but it's in the context of animal sacrifices.

02:11:01

Well, okay. But you see that has a universal appeal because the, and I've researched this from the

02:11:09

Jewish perspective. Some Jews, historians says, yes, you could eat human blood. Other ones said, no.

02:11:15

But from the context here, we would think that what's happening is that the

02:11:20

Jews, I mean, the disciples are going, wait, what? Because they understood you don't do that, which is why they're having trouble.

02:11:27

And then Jesus doesn't correct them either way. He lets them just kind of flounder.

02:11:34

That's right. But no, doesn't he, when I'm looking at the scripture and I'm reading it, when they say to him, how can he give us his flesh to eat?

02:11:48

Jesus seems to double down. Why? I think it's because he's speaking spiritual words to them and he wants them to think of what he's saying.

02:12:00

I don't know that he was, he wasn't like that with Nicodemus. Yeah, that's true.

02:12:08

But even then, look, so watch. John 3, 3, okay? Yeah. Truly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

02:12:19

Nicodemus said, how can a man be born when he's old? He cannot enter a second time as mother of womb.

02:12:25

So Jesus has born again. So Nicodemus is thinking the literal birth. Oh, that's true.

02:12:31

Jesus says, truly I say to you, unless truly, truly just being, when I don't go twice, folks, I'm just doing it for efficiency.

02:12:37

Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. What water is he talking about?

02:12:44

Yeah, but he's not asking anymore. He seems to understand that. Well, look what he says next.

02:12:51

That which is born of the flesh is flesh and the spirit is spirit. So here, this is why

02:12:59

I believe that the water here is a reference to the womb. This is just my opinion. And I'm gonna say most Protestants don't agree with me.

02:13:05

Most don't agree. Most Protestants? Most Protestants, the commentators don't agree with me. You're a

02:13:11

Protestant. Oh, but I'm a Protestant, yeah. We're allowed to have differences of opinion. It's okay. See, so Nicodemus is talking about the mother's womb and Jesus is talking about the mother's womb.

02:13:24

Okay, well. And then in between them is the water. So I think there's sufficient warrant to have a legitimate interpretation as it being the water of the womb.

02:13:39

But let's look at it as baptism. Let's say it's baptism, the baptism water. Then what baptism is referring to?

02:13:48

There's a lot of that, right. There's a born again, there's a spiritual, spirit baptism and then there's also the water baptism as well.

02:13:56

Well, I would say what we have to do is look at the context and John 1 .25, why then are you baptizing if you're not the

02:14:03

Christ? Talking to John the Baptist. So baptizing is there.

02:14:11

And let me just click on this. Oh, that's right. I forgot about that one right there.

02:14:17

John was baptizing. I know a lot about baptism because I argue with Protestants about the mode of baptism.

02:14:22

I believe in sprinkling as well as pouring as well as immersion. I don't believe it. We don't sprinkle, we pour.

02:14:29

Yeah, let's do pour. But I don't know what the difference is. I think pouring is a very biblical model but that's another topic.

02:14:36

Right, I know. I came baptizing in water and I did not recognize him who was sent to me to baptize in water.

02:14:44

So the baptism that is referring to is John's baptism. Well, that's interesting.

02:14:51

It's an interesting connection. Because look at this baptism. And I can see the words now.

02:14:57

I can see the words now. Did you enhance it for me? I'm not sure what you're talking about. What? Well, no, no.

02:15:03

I mean, on the screen, I can see the actual words. It's like they're bigger. I don't know why. Okay, John was baptizing.

02:15:09

Okay. Okay. And so that was a baptism that's in the context.

02:15:16

And so if, these are the questions, this is how I think, okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:15:22

I go, okay, what does it mean? I don't do this. I'm a Catholic. So I, therefore it has to be in this.

02:15:28

No, no, no. I'm a Calvinist. I don't say I'm a Calvinist. It has to mean this. I don't do that.

02:15:34

I go, what does it mean? I understand. And so the water can mean, I think there's an argument to be made that it can mean referring to the water being of the flesh of the womb.

02:15:45

I think it could be, if it means baptism, then the logic would say the baptism of John.

02:15:52

Right. Or, well, yeah, there's, you know, and we don't really know. That would be, that'd be a stretch because we wouldn't really know whether it's the baptism of John or the baptism after acts of the apostle.

02:16:06

We don't know that. Right. In fact, it reminds me, hold on a sec. Ephesians 5, 22,

02:16:14

I think it is. Why is it, washing, washing.

02:16:20

Okay. So that is the word, looks like Latruo.

02:16:28

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Oh my God, I gotta get the Greek. Oh, I love talking about baptism.

02:16:34

I really messed my Protestant brethren up on this one. Well, I mean, MacArthur is, is he on your side or was it the other, what was his name?

02:16:43

I forgot the two. One, they had a date, MacArthur.

02:16:50

I was going to say that some people say that the, the water in John 3, 5, or I think it is, is referring to the washing of the water of the word of God.

02:16:58

That is preaching the teaching of the word. So there's three versions I'm aware of. A fourth would be a

02:17:06

Trinitarian baptism, but that was not in the context of John 3. Because Jesus said, you know, when you go, you know,

02:17:14

I command you to baptize in the name of the Father, but it's unholy prayer. That's after.

02:17:20

So what would baptism with Jesus mean? You know, that's interesting. Well, I think it means a Trinitarian baptism.

02:17:26

I believe it's a pouring, sprinkling or pouring. I believe that's a better argument. And, and I could go into that some other time.

02:17:35

People want to go through the verses and stuff. Yeah, that's another time. And, but I have no problem with immersion either, but anyway.

02:17:42

Okay, so this guy was saying, yeah, we got, you know, one thing leads to another.

02:17:50

And I, and so what was Jesus talking about in John 6, 51? I don't do this to confuse people.

02:17:56

I do this because I asked the question. And I go, what does it mean? And I've learned a great deal by doing this.

02:18:04

And sometimes my studies leave me down dead ends. I don't learn anything really. And other times I have magnificent light bulbs.

02:18:10

Oh wow, I never knew that. But I've been doing that a lot tonight. When I've been teaching on some things, people don't know

02:18:16

I've learned that way. But nevertheless, he will live forever. And so it's flesh.

02:18:21

I think I can see why the Catholics say this position means it's his actual body and blood. But when we look at Leviticus, there's a problem there because it's the idea of inferring that the

02:18:33

Jews are now going to be drinking his blood. And that's no, no with the Jews.

02:18:39

So you see, so it's like, it's not just so simple. No, it's not. That's why

02:18:44

I ask these questions. Let's go to the other thing he says. John 15, one through six, I think this is the last one.

02:18:51

Jesus talks about being divine. Are the branches Christians or non -Christians? Here, let me go to my work. I have so much.

02:18:58

Here, let me show you something. I can't see this. You can't see this, but I have outlines on Calvinism, evolution, knowledge, philosophy, propositions,

02:19:09

Catholicism, the canon, slavery, baptism, and oriental orthodoxy.

02:19:15

These are things I'm working on. Excuse me, are those things you actually, how do you say it?

02:19:24

Saved into your computer? Yeah. Well, I save it on Dropbox.

02:19:31

You should use Dropbox. I'll help you out. I'll teach you. I gotta learn how to do that, yeah. I can run your computer, get you set up with Dropbox.

02:19:37

You need to use Dropbox and LastPass, but that's, I can do it. You know what I should do sometime? Is a computer thing on stuff that will help you guys.

02:19:45

Yeah. No, because Dropboxes are good because I have friends that drop it and I just pick it up and I just drag it in.

02:19:53

I mean, put it into mine. Cause it has - You have a common one, yes. Yeah. Remember, I was a computer tech for years.

02:19:59

So I know - Sure were. Oh my God. Now, okay. So I'm developing them on, things on, for example, outlines on the

02:20:09

Canon, right? It'll come up here in a sec. That's a good topic. Yeah. So this is what

02:20:15

I've got on the Canon. I have all that stuff on, you know, in links and, you know, places out, you know, where I have a few bookmarks.

02:20:23

Oh, yeah. Look at this, John 14. I bet you I have that too. And it's interesting. Yeah. The Canon.

02:20:30

Yeah. It's a good topic. I do research. I work a lot. People don't realize. I mean,

02:20:35

I'm not boasting, it's just, I work a lot. And I'll, like, I'll be up tonight till one.

02:20:42

Well, I usually quit by nine o 'clock and it's 8 .20 for me. And then my wife and I just spend time together.

02:20:50

And then I go to bed. Oh, I come in here again. When she goes to bed and I edit. I work on a novel.

02:20:57

And then when I'm done with that novel, I got to work on completing a second novel. Or another novel. Well, when you're done with the novel,

02:21:03

I'll pin it and I'll have people buy it. The novel? Yeah, why not? I don't know if anybody would want it.

02:21:12

It's a science fiction novel. Well, it's good. I have people that, you know,

02:21:17

I broadcast the books I look for all the time. Yeah. Well, okay, let's get back onto the thing.

02:21:23

John 15, let's see what he said. John 15. Jesus talks about being the vine.

02:21:29

Are the branches Christians or non -Christians? If Christians, then how is it that the branches don't produce fruit, can be cast forth and torn of the fire and burned?

02:21:36

We're obviously, oh, there you go. All right. Oh, I'm going to show you guys something then. This is,

02:21:43

I believe, this is my opinion. I believe that Jesus is speaking covenantal language.

02:21:50

Because in Psalm 80, verse eight, and I'll go here too. But in 88, in, hey, watch this.

02:22:01

Psalm 88, you removed a vine from Egypt. You drove out the nations and planted it.

02:22:08

The vine from Egypt was Israel. And check this out.

02:22:14

For long ago, I broke your yoke and tore off your bonds. But you said, I will not serve.

02:22:20

For on every high hill, another evergreen tree, you've laid down as a harlot. I planted you as a choice vine.

02:22:26

A complete faithful seed. So anyway, we can see that what

02:22:33

Jesus is doing, or may be doing, is hinting at the issue of,

02:22:43

I'm a true vine. What's a Jew going to think? Because he's talking to the disciples. They're going to go, fine, we know about that allusion, that reference in the

02:22:52

Old Testament. We know what he's talking about there. Or maybe they didn't think that. I don't know, but I think it.

02:22:58

I go, wait a minute. I know Israel's referred to as a true vine. But Jesus says, I'm a true vine. Well, he wouldn't say he's

02:23:03

Israel. But why would he use a true vine? Because that's vine is Israel.

02:23:08

So something's going on. Jesus often speaks deeper than what we're looking at. Every branch in me.

02:23:15

Now, in me is again, federal headship. If he don't bear fruit, he takes away.

02:23:21

And every branch that bears fruit, he prunes. You are already clean because of the word which

02:23:27

I've spoken to you. So he's saying there's branches in me who don't bear fruit, but you're clean.

02:23:33

He says, abide in me and I in you as a branch cannot bear fruit of itself. Let me answer this guy's question because he's crazy.

02:23:40

It's another rad trad. He thinks we're both off the wall. I mean, you can get, maybe you can get in there.

02:23:49

I don't know if you want to get in there. You haven't come in. But he says here, what he says in verse six.

02:23:55

I told him to come in right now. If anyone does not abide in me, he's thrown away as a branch.

02:24:00

Does it mean that you were a bunch of heretics?

02:24:07

Whatever. Who's saying that? That's the, it's one of the rad trad guys.

02:24:13

It's a forum. Let's see what they do. All right.

02:24:19

It's all to come in here. Yeah, it's not that hard.

02:24:25

Yeah. Hold on. I got it. I got it. Copy and paste. Very simple. Not hard.

02:24:31

Well, go ahead and talk. I'll give it to him while we're here. All right. So he says, if you abide, if you don't abide in him, you're thrown away.

02:24:38

The question I have is if you are not abiding in him, does it mean you're not in him?

02:24:49

Because if you're not in him, you're not a Christian. That's the question I'm asking.

02:24:56

I'm going, well, if anyone does not abide in me, if anyone's not in me, he's thrown away as a branch, dries up, catches the fire.

02:25:04

Okay. So that's, I don't know what the right answer is. And because of that,

02:25:09

I go, okay, I'm not sure what's going on. But I do know this. We can't lose our salvation.

02:25:16

And here's why. This is what I'm going to is a clear stop. When you're ready,

02:25:23

I'll go through it with you. Go ahead, man. Or I could use the restroom.

02:25:30

No, I'm just trying to answer. I need a restroom break. I've been drinking this water. So hold on.

02:25:36

Give me less than a minute. I'm going to mute myself. I'll be right back. Yeah, take your time.

02:27:22

All right, back. Sorry about that. No, take your time. Okay. So when

02:27:27

I look at John 15, that's one of the areas of scripture I've never fully been able to understand.

02:27:36

And the reason is because when he says, I'm the true vine, I know that Israel is referred to as a vine.

02:27:44

So what's going on? And I just asked what's going on. I haven't solved that one yet. And then he says, you're already clean because of the word, which

02:27:53

I've spoken to you. I'm not exactly sure what that means either. Because you're clean by his blood, but yet you're clean by the word and issue of sanctification.

02:28:03

And so it says, abide in me and I in you. Abide in me. So be in him, remain in him, be in him, whatever.

02:28:10

I'm the vine, you're the branches. He who abides in me and I in him, he bears much fruit. For part me, you can bear fruit.

02:28:17

So he's saying that if you're in him, you bear fruit. But he says, if he does not abide in him, it doesn't bear fruit.

02:28:28

Well, then I would say, are these the Christians? And these are the non -Christians?

02:28:35

Because he says, if anyone does not abide in me. Well, if someone wants to say that this has to be the

02:28:43

Christian, well, you know, okay, then let's work with it. Then that would mean they lose their salvation.

02:28:50

But that's problematic because of this. What? All that the father gives me will come to me.

02:29:01

It does not say the ones who come to him, the father will give to him. All that the father gives me will come to me.

02:29:10

All that the father gives me, but what is he talking about? That's just it. Look at the verses before.

02:29:18

This is John six again. Okay. John six is an incredible chapter.

02:29:24

Oh, it's huge. It's probably the biggest one, you know. That's right. So Jesus says,

02:29:29

I'm the bread of life who comes to me, will not hunger. And then he believes in me, will never thirst. Okay.

02:29:35

He believes in me, will never thirst. Believes in me. Right. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet you do not believe.

02:29:42

All that the father gives me. But I don't think that is referring to Christians or even people.

02:29:49

I don't think that that's, I think he's talking about power. Oh, no, no, no. I'll show you. What does he say that?

02:29:56

All authority has been given unto me. Remember when Jesus said that? Let's read the context. Okay. All right.

02:30:03

So, and that's a fair thing. And see, you're doing the right thing. You're asking the question.

02:30:09

Could it mean power? Well, let's see. All that the father gives me will come to me.

02:30:15

And the one who comes to me, I will not cast out. It doesn't seem to fit the idea of power.

02:30:20

No, you're right. Okay. That's interesting. But no, you're doing exactly the right thing though.

02:30:26

You asked a question. That's what I do. I ask a question. Okay. You go to the text. You go, nope, that doesn't work.

02:30:32

I've done it many, many, many times. There are times like, oh, that could work. But you know, for I've come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

02:30:44

This is the will of him who sent me, that all that he's given me, I lose nothing, but raise it upon the last day.

02:30:51

You know, and it would be interesting to also know what that all in Greek means in verse 37.

02:30:57

That would help maybe a little bit, but I don't know. Here it is right here. Pon, the

02:31:02

Greek pos. Okay. That's just the Greek. That's the lemma. That's what the word actually is on a

02:31:08

Greek vocabulary card. Pos means all. And oh,

02:31:14

I won't go into John 3, 16. So much stuff. So that's what it means there. All that the father gives me.

02:31:20

All right. And the word all here in verse 39 is also pos.

02:31:27

Okay. All right. It's the same thing. Now, all that the father gives me will come to me.

02:31:34

All right. He'll not cast them out. I've come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

02:31:41

This is the will of him who sent me, that all that he's given me, I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

02:31:48

I'm reading it with you right now, yeah. Okay. So I can go to a different version if you want. I don't have a problem with that.

02:31:54

No, actually, I don't mind. Yeah, it's fine. So the will of the father is that Jesus lose none, right?

02:32:03

Right. Can Jesus ever fail to do the will of the father? Can Jesus lose any?

02:32:14

I just don't know that all, it doesn't seem just... I will show you if you want,

02:32:21

I'll do a study after this on the word all. And I'll show you something very interesting about the word all. Okay.

02:32:28

But I'll go for a half hour and I'll quit. I know you're already been two and a half hours.

02:32:33

You probably want to be with your wife for a while. It's been, yeah. But I'll just go through a little while or till this starts beeping.

02:32:39

So here's the thing, okay. My wife knows I do this a lot. So it's a good opportunity.

02:32:46

So Jesus can't fail to do the will of the father, all right. I think it's John 8, 29.

02:32:53

He has not left me for I always do the things that are pleasing to him. So Jesus always does what's pleasing to the father.

02:33:01

It's the will of the fathers that Jesus lose none. Can Jesus lose any? No. No. And notice this, for this is the will of my father.

02:33:11

I'll go to both verses. This is the will of him who sent me. This is the will of my father.

02:33:19

That, that, all, everyone. All that he has given me,

02:33:26

I lose nothing. Everyone who believes, behold, to believe the son, the eternal life, and I, myself will raise him up in the last day.

02:33:35

We'll raise him up in the last day. This is like a, this will of my father, raise him up.

02:33:41

Will of my father. I'm going to research this more often. This is a very good topic. And I haven't really pondered it as well as we're doing now.

02:33:49

Oh, I'll show you something even more interesting. Yeah. I think after this. I can't believe

02:33:54

I haven't seen it as well as you have seen it. Wow. I, I spend my time in the Bible. I don't have blinders on from, from whatever.

02:34:03

I mean, I have some blinders. I mean, no one's, you know, but no one has any, everybody has some kind of interaction.

02:34:09

Yeah. Yeah. Everybody has some blinders, but, but I mean, this is what I do. She, excuse me,

02:34:16

I learned this. I've, I consider myself very blessed of God because he gave me autism, allowed me to have it or whatever and put me to do this.

02:34:24

And I mean, I've only been studying Catholicism for maybe 10 years, but I've been doing stuff before that for 30 years before that I have.

02:34:33

I couldn't tell you about autism. You're pretty smart. Yeah. I have Asperger's, but, and so, well, so anyway, here's the thing.

02:34:45

You see, Jesus can't lose anybody. And there they'd be resurrected. Cause he says, raise it up on the last day, raise him up on the last day.

02:34:51

There are other places in scripture where Jesus seems to imply that, you know, you can. For example, where?

02:34:58

I'll show you. Well. How about Hebrews 10, 26? Ah, let me bring up a scripture.

02:35:04

I have it in my head. We go on sinning willfully. That one. Where Jesus is talking, for instance,

02:35:11

I don't know the verse, but I'll tell you the phrase. You know, you need to, uh, how does it say, how does it go?

02:35:30

You know, the servant follows the master, you know, not the master follows the servant and, you know, wherever the master goes, the servant will follow.

02:35:40

Where did the master go? To the cross, Jesus. So I'm connecting that as, you know, if we don't seem to follow

02:35:48

Jesus, the full way of length of the way, you know, are we going to be saved? Oh, okay.

02:35:55

I think it's out of Matthew 24, but, um, I don't know for sure, but here's the thing is that we've got to be careful what we do with parables.

02:36:02

I'm not knocking parables. I love to teach on the parables. I think it is parabolic.

02:36:08

That was more of a destruction. I don't know. Well, it might be, but I'm just not sure which verse you're talking about.

02:36:13

I know. And I got, I got to research. I got to look at my notes. Yeah. It's all right. You know, it's, um.

02:36:20

I have bipolar. Okay. I'll be honest with you. I do have that. I do have that. So I, I struggle sometimes with, uh.

02:36:27

Your what? Bipolar. Oh, okay. We're both broken. We're both broken.

02:36:35

Both broken. That's right. I mean,

02:36:40

I have a Bible that. I like, I love this verse right here. I have this, I have, uh.

02:36:46

I am forgotten. I study

02:36:51

Bible just like you do. And believe me, I haven't gone through this particular topic yet. Well, here's the, tell you what, let me, uh.

02:36:58

We've answered his questions and you can see John in John 15, the vine.

02:37:04

I don't know exactly what's going on. I can't answer it accurately. Not because, um. I can't see it like a

02:37:10

Catholic, but because as you can see, I ask these serious questions. And I just, and they lead me to studying other things very deeply.

02:37:19

And since Jesus says he won't lose any. And there's other verses like this. That show the same kind of a thing.

02:37:26

And I could, I can, I can show you can't lose your salvation from other verses. But let me, let me sidetrack because I think we're done with this.

02:37:34

Because it also leads me to that verse, uh. That parable where, you know. The son leaves the father and goes off his way, merry way.

02:37:42

You know, is that, you know, is he sort of saved coming back? Right. And you see that, we hear that in our

02:37:49

Catholic church a lot. The prodigal son? Right. As he leaves, you know, here he's saved, he leaves, he comes back, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

02:37:58

Is he, you know, is he still his son if he doesn't come back? You see what I'm saying? Yeah, that's in Luke.

02:38:04

Um, you know, those are the types of verses that I'm talking about. That lead us to understand that, you know, you can lose your salvation, you know.

02:38:13

Okay, so he's talking about the prodigal son. The older son, the younger son. Let's go through. And I don't want to, I don't want to run around because I know my brother.

02:38:19

No, let's go through it. I'll show you, watch. A man had two sons.

02:38:26

The younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me. So he divided his wealth among them.

02:38:32

Now, culturally speaking, the son just insulted his father greatly. He greatly insulted this father by saying, give me the inheritance.

02:38:45

Did you hear, did you hear what I said? Because you do not get your inheritance until after your father's dead.

02:38:54

He's saying, father, I want it now. And that culture, the man, the father should have slapped him and rebuked him.

02:39:02

And the, and the, the, the younger is the one who said this. The older son is obligated to defend the honor of the father.

02:39:12

Okay. But he's not doing it. Not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey to a distant country.

02:39:18

And there he squandered his estate with loose living. Now, when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in the country and he began to be impoverished.

02:39:25

So he went and hired himself out to the citizens of that country. And he sent him into his fields to feed swine, unclean animal.

02:39:34

Jesus picks this unclean animal that this Jew is now feeding. This is scandalous.

02:39:41

Okay. And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating and no one was giving him anything.

02:39:51

But when he came to his senses, he said, how many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I'm dying with hunger.

02:39:59

And notice what he's referring to hired men, hired men are not his sons.

02:40:08

I will get up and go to my father. I'll say to him, father, I've sinned against heaven. And in your sight,

02:40:13

I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired men. Now, the question is at this point.

02:40:22

But he is trying to, you know, Jesus is trying to elaborate how he's thinking, right?

02:40:28

Yeah. But we have to ask a question. Was the man repentant? Because he wants to work.

02:40:40

Make me a hired man in your house so I can have what I want to survive. Right.

02:40:47

So is he really repentant? That's a good question to ask. So he got up and came to his father, but while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him and ran and embraced him and kissed him.

02:41:00

Wait a minute. Men of stature and wealth don't run in that culture.

02:41:07

He's comparing him to a heavenly father. I mean, we all know that, right? Yes. We're going to ask some other questions.

02:41:13

You're right. Son said to the father, father, I've sinned against heaven in your sight. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son.

02:41:22

Now, he doesn't say make me a hired servant here. I'm just not worthy. Now he says,

02:41:28

I'm not worthy. Before it was make me a hired man. Now he just says, I'm not even worthy.

02:41:34

Now is he repentant? Right, right. Now, is he repentant here? Maybe. It would seem to be more so, but we don't know for sure.

02:41:44

This is what the parables do. They make you go, what? Wait, what's going on? Yeah, they make us think. Okay. All right.

02:41:52

Whoops. Where would I go? Okay. The father said to the slaves, quickly bring out the best robe, put a ring, that's authority, and sandals on his feet because slaves didn't wear sandals.

02:42:06

They're barefoot. Bring the fatted calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and has come to life again.

02:42:15

And he was lost and has been found. They began to celebrate. Now people say, well, this is about losing salvation.

02:42:21

It's not about losing salvation at all. The older son was in the field.

02:42:26

How would you, how would you? You're going to see here. The older son is in the field.

02:42:33

Who's the older son? Who's the younger son? We're going to find out. The older son was in the field.

02:42:40

And when he came and approached the house, he heard the music and dancing. And he summoned one of his servants and began inquiring, what are these things about?

02:42:47

He said to them, your brother has come and his father has killed a fatted calf because we received him back safe and sound.

02:42:53

But he became angry and was not willing to go in. And his father came out and began pleading with him.

02:43:00

He answered to, said to his father, look, that's disrespectful. Okay.

02:43:07

For so many years, I have been serving you and I've never neglected a command of yours.

02:43:14

And yet you have never given me a young goat. Who's the, who's the older son represent?

02:43:29

Well, the older, well, he's his father, right? He's his son. Who's the, he represents someone.

02:43:35

Who's the one who kept the commands of God? The Jews. Right, right.

02:43:43

Look for many years, I've been serving you. I've never neglected a command of yours.

02:43:49

You have never given me a young goat so that I might celebrate my friends. But this son of yours, it's disrespectful.

02:43:58

He's complaining against the father. The Jews complained against the God, against God. They're the hypocrites.

02:44:06

Because, because the fatted calf had come, because Christ is coming, who has devoured your wealth and with prostitutes, you kill the fatted calf.

02:44:15

He said to him, son, you've always been with me. That's the, that's a

02:44:20

Jewish nation, the Jewish people. But we had to celebrate and rejoice for this brother of yours.

02:44:26

Nobody says this brother of yours, where he said, where the older son said, this, the son of this, uh, the son of yours.

02:44:34

Then he, but he, uh, the, the older, I'm getting mixed up. The older brother says to the father, this son of yours, doesn't say my brother.

02:44:42

But the father says, this is your brother, but he doesn't want the son, his younger son to be his brother.

02:44:51

The younger son represents the Gentiles. Right. And he was lost and went and found them.

02:45:00

And then we get into the unrighteous steward, which I could explain if you guys are ever interested, but the lost sheep,

02:45:08

Jesus goes out to find the lost sheep. Right. The lost coin, the lost son rejoicing over that, which is lost.

02:45:22

The Gentiles were lost and there should be rejoicing. The Gentiles come into the faith, but it's through after the cat fatted calf, the shedding of blood occurs that this is what's necessary in the rejoicing.

02:45:39

The, the father is represents God, the father, the older son represents the

02:45:45

Jews. The younger son represents the Gentiles. Okay. It's not about losing your salvation.

02:45:53

It's about that, which is lost is found. Who's the lost and who's the found.

02:46:00

Then he goes into the unrighteous steward. And this is really worth looking at because right after this, he goes into the lost steward.

02:46:08

Now check this out. Now that we, there's no chapter break in the Greek, I'll explain this. There was a rich man who had a manager and the manager was reported to him as squandering his possessions.

02:46:20

And he called to him and said, what is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management for you could no longer be management, be manager.

02:46:29

The manager said to himself, what shall I do? Just my master has taken the management away from me. I'm not strong enough to dig.

02:46:35

I'm ashamed to beg. I know what I'll do. So when

02:46:40

I'm removed from the management, because he says he's guilty when I'm removed, looking at the records, he's busted.

02:46:46

Okay. This is what I'll do to it. So they'll welcome me into their homes. He summoned each one of the master's debtors and began saying to the first, how much do you owe my master?

02:46:55

A hundred measures of oil. He said, quickly take and write 50. How much do you owe? A hundred measures of wheat.

02:47:02

And he said, take your bill and write 80. The master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relationship to their own kind than the sons of life.

02:47:17

Now, wait a minute. Why is Jesus saying that the unrighteous steward is being praised?

02:47:23

He lied and he was stealing unrighteous steward, right?

02:47:30

And then Jesus says this. I said, you make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness so that when it fails, they'll receive you into internal dwellings.

02:47:44

This is like, what? This can't be the words of Christ. He can't be teaching that unrighteousness is a good thing.

02:47:53

So let me explain it. Let me explain how it relates to the other stuff. Now, the manager is not a good guy.

02:48:05

Okay. There was a rich man. Now, the rich man says,

02:48:11

I've heard this. I need to check the facts. So he's a man of honor.

02:48:17

He doesn't jump to conclusions. Let me see the facts. The manager knows he's in trouble. He's going to be, he's going to be, it'll be taken away from him.

02:48:25

All right. Then he goes and says, how much do you owe? I owe this, write it for less. How much do you owe?

02:48:31

I owe this, write it for less. Now, let's stop for a minute and think of the culture.

02:48:41

A man's reputation was really important in the culture. The reputation of a town was very important in the culture.

02:48:51

The man who got up in the middle of the night, knocked on his neighbor's door, in the parable,

02:48:57

I forgot where, knocked, knocked, knocked, give me oil because of his persistence. He gave him the oil.

02:49:02

The Greek word can also be rendered as a way of looking at it. I can go into it some other time. I got to refresh my memory.

02:49:09

It can be looked up into because of his shame. Well, you're in a hurry, so I understand. Okay. So the thing is, the reputation of a person is very important.

02:49:20

Now, let me ask you a question. The people who are in debt, what would you do if,

02:49:27

I don't know if you, let's say you owe $20 ,000 on a car. You bought a car and you've been paying it. Let's say you owe $20 ,000 and you get a phone call from the dealer.

02:49:36

It says, Rob, yes. How much do you owe on the car? I owe exactly $20 ,000.

02:49:42

I'll tell you what, if you write a check right now for $5 ,000, the car's paid off. Would you do it?

02:49:49

You go, you do something and you'd pay that thing off, right? You have to.

02:49:56

Yeah, unless you're absolutely flat broke. But what would you be doing at that point? You'd be telling your friends, look what happened.

02:50:02

It's completely paid off. I got a great deal. You'd be happy about it, wouldn't you?

02:50:08

Oh, yeah. What are they going to do? They're going to rejoice. What do they do when they rejoice?

02:50:15

They don't call them up on the phones. They go over to someone's house and they talk about how great, who?

02:50:24

Great, the rich man is. Because they believe the manager is representing the rich man.

02:50:30

They're thinking it's the rich man who's instructed the manager to give them this discount.

02:50:36

Oh, that's okay. I got it. I follow you now. Okay. So now the people who they're rejoicing because of the rich man.

02:50:45

The rich man's reputation is critical. What's he going to do now? After all they're rejoicing, they're going to kill the fat and whatever, eat this, go to people's houses.

02:50:56

They rejoice about stuff like that. They have pretty bleak lives. What's the rich man going to do now?

02:51:04

He's going to do what he can do. If he says, no, that's not true.

02:51:10

Give me the money back. He looks bad. What is the manager, the unrighteous steward counting on?

02:51:17

The goodness of the rich man, the landowner. He counted on the goodness of the landowner.

02:51:25

And so he was praised for what reason? This is eschatological because it's dealing with entering into the wealth of righteousness.

02:51:38

You can enter into eternal dwellings. Jesus is talking about eternal life, salvation, that even this unrighteous man was smart enough to get in.

02:51:52

And he's praised because that's how serious damnation is compared to salvation.

02:51:58

He used his conniving to be taken care of and he's praised for it.

02:52:04

But he was depending upon the goodness of the landowner. The manager was. And in that he secured himself.

02:52:11

And he says, for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light.

02:52:23

The sons of this age are the unbelievers, the Gentiles, the sons of light are supposed to be the Jews, the

02:52:28

Jews, not the Christian, but the Jews. So this is what he's talking about here.

02:52:35

This whole section of scripture is about finding the lost thing and about heaven, about those who are lost.

02:52:43

The Jews are the ones saying, heaven, we deserve it because we've kept your law, father.

02:52:49

And yet you share the fatted calf for this guy, the son of yours.

02:52:55

It's not about losing salvation or getting it by your works. It's about the issue and the importance of finding what is lost and who's doing the finding.

02:53:04

It's God finding the lost brethren, the Gentiles, finding all of them, even those inside the

02:53:14

Christian church. This is the kind of thing that's going on here. This is why I say to people, study the

02:53:20

Bible. Right. Study it. Don't believe what anybody tells you.

02:53:25

And I answered this from the pulpit. But I gotta tell you something. Even though I'm a

02:53:30

Catholic and I can listen to the priest talking, I still go to the Bible and I still go to, you know,

02:53:36

I'll use a catechism as a backup. I'm sure Presbyterians have catechisms, okay, everybody's got catechisms.

02:53:41

But I'm saying I still end up thinking it through myself, like I'm doing right now with you, you know.

02:53:50

I'm not just thinking somebody else's word for it flat out, you know. I'll tell you what it'll do.

02:53:56

It has to make sense, but you gotta study deeper. Right. Because the

02:54:02

Catholic church is telling you that it'll tell you what to believe. It doesn't tell me, it's not like a cult though.

02:54:09

Well, you told me before you don't believe it's a cult. But I mean, it's not like it's telling me subliminally, notice.

02:54:17

It's not like it's a Mormon church telling me subliminally, this is what you have to believe word for word,

02:54:24

A, B, C, D, E, F, G. It's giving me sort of like a guidance.

02:54:30

This is where you can find certain things. Okay. Now, if you look at the first ecumenical council,

02:54:37

I don't know if you studied any of those. I don't know if you ever went through any of that. It teaches certain things, but it goes back way before even the fourth century.

02:54:54

I mean, we're talking second, third, first century. I mean, we're talking the didache, you know all about that.

02:55:00

Yeah. I mean, we're talking about writings that were way before our time.

02:55:06

Yeah. The didache is not. The didache is only the catechism, an early catechism.

02:55:14

And this means baptism is interesting. Yeah. It is interesting. You see what I always urge everybody, not just the

02:55:22

Catholics. I don't say it just to Catholics. I don't say it just to Mormons. I also say it to Protestants.

02:55:29

And I got people I've taught here in Boise. And if they were on, I'd say to them, if I told you to study, don't believe what

02:55:38

I'm saying. Check it out with scripture. They would say, that's correct. Now, Charlie Spine down here,

02:55:44

I've known him for 40 years. Oh, wow. At least. He's the guy who got me into apologetics.

02:55:51

The guy down here, Charlie Spine. And so he's a great helper. So the thing is that I've told that he could probably verify, you know, this is what

02:56:02

I say. This, I'm not just saying it to Catholics, but look, this is what the Catholic says.

02:56:08

The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the word of God, whether in its written form or the form of tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the church alone.

02:56:19

But understand what it means. It's taken from the scripture, 2 Thessalonians 2 .15.

02:56:27

Now, read that verse carefully. All right. Well, I would love that verse, 2

02:56:32

Thessalonians 2 .15. That's good. It is a good verse. It's... Have I introduced you?

02:56:39

I know I've heard you teach on it. I did, you know, and I don't think you've done it, but you know. And what is the context?

02:56:47

Well, if you read it carefully, Paul is talking. And we all know Paul wrote that particular verse.

02:56:54

So what is he saying? He's saying, hold fast to the teachings, traditions as teachings.

02:57:01

Yeah. To the word of mouth and written letter.

02:57:06

Well, check this out. Well, how would we understand written letter? Well, watch this. There is no scripture.

02:57:12

Isn't it? Well, check this out though. Okay. I request you brethren with regard to the coming of the

02:57:19

Lord Jesus Christ and are gathering together to him. So this is what he's talking about. Okay. The eschaton, the return of Christ, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or by just be disturbed either by a spirit from him or a message or a letter from us as to the effect of the day the

02:57:34

Lord has come. By composure, by either by a message. Okay. Written, spoken or a letter.

02:57:43

All right. But no one in a way deceived you for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first.

02:57:49

The man of lawlessness is revealed. The son of destruction who opposes and exalts himself. But who is the man of lawlessness?

02:57:55

Well, that's the antichrist. It's something of the beast. And he says, and look at this verse five.

02:58:02

Do you not remember that while I was with you, I was telling you these things? Isn't that oral?

02:58:09

Oral tradition? Catholics should go here and they should say, no, 2 Thessalonians 2 5 is better than 2 15.

02:58:16

But I'll tell you, but I'll show you, watch. And you know, it restrains him now. I got a question about this verse.

02:58:24

He says, hold on to, you know, he says, I told you these things. So they heard what he said and they were getting it wrong.

02:58:35

Weren't they? The oral spoken thing, they were not getting it right from what he said.

02:58:44

They were having problems. Do you think they would have gotten it right written? I mean, look at all the different people that got different with the same scripture, all these different, you know.

02:58:58

It's a good point. But let me ask you something, which is better to examine, to really understand.

02:59:06

Someone said something and 15 people say, well, I heard him say this word. No, I heard him say that word or the written one where everybody has it exactly the same.

02:59:22

And you know what restrains him now. So that in this, his time, he'll be revealed for the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.

02:59:29

Only he who now restrains will do so until he's taken out of the way. Then the lawless one will be revealed whom the

02:59:38

Lord will slay with the breath of his mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of his coming. That is the one who's coming and is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power signs of false wonders and with all deception of wickedness for those who perish because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

02:59:55

For this reason, God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they believe what is false in order that they all may be judged.

03:00:03

Oh, I'm getting tired. I'm sorry. That's okay. We'll finish this and I'll go.

03:00:09

It's my fault. No, it's okay. No, it's okay. You judge who do not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness. But we should always give thanks to God for my brother beloved by the

03:00:19

Lord because God has chosen you from the beginning. There's that chosen thing again, right there.

03:00:27

From the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the spirit of the Lord by the faith of God.

03:00:33

For it was this that he called. Here we go again. Okay. The calling, choosing you through our gospel that you may gain the glory of our

03:00:43

Lord Jesus Christ. So then in light of all of this, right? Stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught.

03:00:50

What traditions is he talking about? Teachings that he has passed on along with all the other apostles.

03:01:00

Wouldn't you say so? He's talking about the return of Christ. That's what he's talking about. He's also talking about, but isn't he saying basically that, well, actually.

03:01:13

There's only been three or four that I've been writing any scripture. I mean, Jude, Paul, James.

03:01:20

I mean, there haven't been that many. Well, we're looking at this context. Of this verse. And the context is talking about the return of Christ and the rise of the antichrist.

03:01:29

And if the Catholics, anybody would say Eastern Orthodox do it too. Well, there's a break.

03:01:35

Give thanks to you, brethren, because even God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification.

03:01:41

He's called you through your gospel. And they go, that's what he's referring to. I go, oh, you mean Calvinism? That's what we teach.

03:01:49

You teach too. We teach that, that God chose us for salvation from the beginning.

03:01:56

And then he called us through the gospel. That's what Calvinism teaches. So then brethren stand firm and hold to the traditions.

03:02:05

I think he's talking about the return of Christ. So who is he talking about?

03:02:13

What he's saying? Hold fast to the traditions, be they by word of mouth or written letter. I mean, what is he talking about?

03:02:20

So then brethren stand firm and hold to traditions. That's what he's talking about.

03:02:25

The believers. He's instructing the believers who are being deceived and worried.

03:02:33

No, no, no. He's not yet revealed. But by message, either written or oral.

03:02:41

That's a pretty good scripture. What is that? NASB or KGB?

03:02:48

NASB. I use the NASB because it's the most literal in Greek. That's exactly what I use. And you see, what will happen is

03:02:59

Catholics will say to me, you know, we're talking about Catholics here. Second thing, there's a lot of Protestants too.

03:03:06

You can go to Lutherans. There's wackos everywhere. But the point I want to make was, he'll say, see man says, hold to the traditions.

03:03:14

I go, you read the context? And then they go, they said, no, it's what it says, man. We'll read the context.

03:03:20

And they say, wait, you don't believe the word? It's what it says. I'm like, you know, and then they'll say, well, why don't you explain it?

03:03:27

I do. And they ignore it. Then they'll ask me a question. And then I won't answer them because I got 8 ,000 things to do.

03:03:34

And then they'll say, oh, so you're avoiding us. I'm like, you know, it's ridiculous. You can tell,

03:03:40

I study. Because it's like a song. What's that? I sing this song and you sing that song.

03:03:47

You hear what I'm saying? I mean, you wear blue, I wear red, you know, and it's like back and forth, like a tennis match.

03:03:53

That's really what it comes out to, you know? A little bit of that, yeah. You know. I tell you what, making this again.

03:04:01

This will be good because I'm really, I'm learning a lot. I'm really am. I'm getting another perspective. Well, I'll tell you what, if you want.

03:04:09

And I went through your teaching too. I mean, college, I mean, geez. Well, I've been teaching for decades.

03:04:17

You've been teaching for decades, yeah. Yeah. You're older than I am, though. Yeah, I'm older.

03:04:22

I'm 63. I'm 63. I'm gonna be 54 this year. You'll be what?

03:04:28

54 this year, April 4th. 54? Wow, you're a young puppy. Oh, come on. Or who's really old is

03:04:33

Charlie Spine. He and Noah used to hang out together. Oh, really? Yeah. So I'll tell you what

03:04:39

I'm gonna do. I'm gonna give you a verse that I want us to, if you want me to do this again next week or something. Or next week

03:04:44

I'll be in Memphis. I mean, in Nashville.

03:04:50

Who pays you to fly around like this? Geez. I gotta go to the National Religious Broadcasting Network. So anyway, that verse right there,

03:04:58

Romans 5 .18. Yeah, let me get that. Incredibly important verse. All right. What is that verse again?

03:05:05

Romans 5 .18. In maybe two weeks, you can come back on a Wednesday night and I'll do this again.

03:05:12

Yeah, it'd be great. Yeah. And listen, the way I found you is

03:05:18

I copied that link that you gave me. Yeah, that's the way to get into the stream yard.

03:05:23

Do I have to keep that link written down somewhere or? No, it's up at the top of the screen. I know it is, but I have to, you know, either

03:05:30

I copy it into a, you know, one of those pads. You go to the top of the screen and you just copy it.

03:05:36

Then you paste it into something. It's starting to beep now. It's gonna go out in about five minutes. But I'm trying to figure out, how do

03:05:44

I get to this, to your discussion right now? You're right here.

03:05:49

I know I got to it somehow. I don't know. I forgot how. By clicking on the link, the stream yard link that I gave you.

03:05:59

Okay. I know that. I got that. But it's just that, oh, but that I, B, J, X, you know, that letter's after it.

03:06:05

Okay. Whenever you start a stream yard thing, a new one of those comes up. New letters, new numbers.

03:06:11

Then you just copy that. You give it to somebody and they come in here like this. And you just give me those, that link through messenger and that's how we get it.

03:06:20

Email, messenger, whatever. Yeah. Okay, cool. All right. We got to do this again. Yeah, I can do it again.

03:06:28

You're not going to get tired, are you? No, I love teaching the word. I can show you some interesting stuff in the

03:06:35

Bible. Yeah, but, well, we can talk about, continue this and we can go into, you know, the elect.

03:06:44

That's an interesting topic, I mean, that I totally don't completely agree with on every level, but I'd love to hear your take on it.

03:06:52

Yeah, I can teach on God's election and what it means out of the scriptures. And also the man of lawlessness. I mean, who is it?

03:06:59

Who's it going to be? Probably, well, well, I don't know. I don't know who it's going to be.

03:07:04

He might be a Muslim. He might be a Muslim. You don't think it's Pope Francis? No. He's a little liberal, though.

03:07:12

No, but I do think, well, okay, I got to get going because it's late. And this is going to be, he's going to quit.

03:07:18

And then we'll, all right. Okay. I wanted to thank you,

03:07:23

Rob, too. This is Charlie. Thanks so much. Oops. He went. He's gone. Well, I'm sure you probably heard it, but you can see he's a nice guy.

03:07:32

But he really is. I love the guy. He's great. Yep. All right.

03:07:38

So we're on three hours and seven minutes. So I got to get going. Okay, buddy. All right. We'll catch up with you on the other side,