Powerful Conversation w/ a Mormon Missionary

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

So, what would you say to me? I'm a Christian, and I've read the Book of Mormon, too. What would you say to someone like me that says,

00:07

I've prayed about the Book of Mormon, I've searched the scriptures, and I believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and that Mormonism teaches a false gospel, and I feel that with all my heart.

00:18

What would you say to me? I mean, I guess, I don't know your life or exactly how you read or any of those things, but I know that when

00:29

I read it, I received that witness. And I'm sorry you didn't, but I do know that everyone has their own choices, and they can choose for themselves.

00:39

So, I guess the reason I bring that up is just as an example to show, in the search for truth,

00:46

Jesus says, Father, sanctify them by your truth, thy word is truth. He says that God's word is the truth.

00:52

It is. And so you, as I'm sure a very sincere man, and you as well, you have an experience, and I have an experience.

01:01

And if we had a Muslim come here right now next to us, he would tell us that he's prayed as well, and he feels with all of his heart that he has this passion and this knowledge that Allah is

01:10

God and Muhammad is his prophet. And he would tell the both of us, you're both nuts. Jesus didn't die on a cross, and he's not the divine son of God.

01:18

And so his experience, his feelings, are different than all three of us. And he's prayed about it, he's very zealous, but his own feelings are that Jesus did not die on a cross, we don't need him for our atonement.

01:33

But you and I would both disagree with him on that. Of course. But he's prayed about it with all of his heart. And the

01:39

Bible, I just want to share, the Bible says, the heart is deceitful above all things, and corrupt, who can know it?

01:45

It's sick beyond cure, the Bible says. And so, to trust in your own heart and your own feelings as a fallen, sinful person is not the path to truth.

01:54

Because we all have different experiences and feelings and emotions. But Jesus says thy word is true. And so, just as an example, you were a missionary, so you actually had to learn a foreign language.

02:06

Actually, I just spoke English. Did they all speak English? Oh, are you kidding? Okay, okay. All right, well good.

02:12

Sorry. But you continue with that. I know what learning a language is like. So you went door to door, and you told people the first vision.

02:22

And the first vision says that God, the Father told Joseph that all the creeds of the

02:28

Christian church were an abomination. All the professors, that's me, and other

02:34

Christians are all corrupt. They draw near to God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. So that was

02:40

Joseph's revelation to the world, that that's what God told him. And that the Christian church ultimately had fallen away, and that it needed to be restored to the earth.

02:50

The problem I have as a Christian with that is that God had already said, long before Joseph came along and had this revelation,

02:58

He had said that He would build a kingdom, establish a kingdom, and it would never be destroyed. That was in Dano chapter 2.

03:04

The Bible teaches very clearly that God's kingdom would come to the world, and He would have dominion, and it was an everlasting one, and it would never, ever end or be destroyed.

03:12

Jesus tells Peter that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. And in Jude verse 3 it says, to earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

03:21

Joseph says, well, that's not true. It did fall away. The kingdom was ultimately destroyed.

03:26

It needs to be restored again. And then Joseph taught a view of God that's inconsistent with what the scriptures actually teach about God.

03:36

And the reason we're here tonight is we're not here to abuse you. We care very deeply for you. As a matter of fact,

03:43

Latter -day Saints, you guys are some of my favorite people in the world, to be honest with you. But my concern for you as a

03:48

Christian, as a minister, is you're teaching people something about God that is not in fact what

03:54

God says about Himself. It's a different God. You're teaching a gospel that's a different gospel that doesn't ultimately save.

04:01

And just as one example, and I'd love to hear what you have to say. Joseph taught that, he says, we've all got to learn to become gods, and he says, as all gods have done before us.

04:16

And he says that God has not always been God. He became God. That's in the

04:22

King Fala discourse. But in the Bible, God says in Isaiah 43 .10, Before me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after me.

04:30

And God says He's the first and the last, and besides Him there is no god. He says in Deuteronomy 4, that He's the only

04:35

God in the heavens above and on the earth below. There is no other. But Joseph taught that there were three gods on this earth, many gods before God, and we can become gods one day ourselves.

04:45

How long have you been a Latter -day Saint? My whole life. Your whole life? Yeah. So you probably know, especially you were raised in Mesa.

04:53

Where at Mesa, by the way? Just here, Stapleton Ground. Stapleton Ground? Right on. Okay. My stomping grounds. So you guys, seminary, probably raised, you know the saying,

05:03

As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. Right? So that's foundational to Latter -day

05:11

Saint theology, is that you can become a god one day. I guess, what do you believe as far as our purpose here on earth?

05:20

Our primary purpose is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever. And then what is our purpose in eternity?

05:27

To bring glory to God, praise to God for all eternity. To delight in God for all eternity.

05:33

That would be our purpose. I agree with that. And so the distinction though,

05:39

I think, why I think I care so much about you is because we use the same language. We talk about heaven.

05:46

We talk about Heavenly Father. We talk about Jesus. We talk about the Holy Spirit. We talk about the Bible. But as an example, when

05:52

I say Jesus, I mean what John chapter 1 says. That in the beginning was the

05:57

Word. He always existed. And He was with the Father. An intimate relationship with the

06:02

Father for all eternity. And He was God. And that nothing came into being that's come into being except through Him.

06:09

So the distinction there is that when I say Jesus, I mean the eternal God, the creator of all things.

06:15

When you guys hear Jesus, you think Jesus, the offspring of Heavenly Father, and one of His goddess wives,

06:22

Lucifer's brother. Right? Right. That's a different Christ. Oh.

06:28

I think I'm saying this. So you see Heavenly Father as Jesus Christ is

06:34

Heavenly Father. And the Holy Spirit in one? No. No. Sometimes I've even read some

06:40

Latter -day Saint literature, and they oftentimes try to critique the Christian church, what we've taught for 2 ,000 years, as Christians believe that Jesus is the

06:48

Father. We don't believe that. The Bible doesn't teach that. We've never believed that. The Bible teaches there's one being,

06:54

God. And God exists eternally as three eternal co -equal persons.

06:59

The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. John 1 teaches that, by the way, that Jesus has always existed with the

07:07

Father, and yet He is God. And so did all of us. Well, but Latter -day

07:12

Saint theology, you can help me here if I'm getting this wrong, and I don't want to misrepresent you, teaches that God was once a man,

07:20

Elohim, and He became a God. Well, Joseph taught that in the King Father discourse. And it teaches that Heavenly Father with one of His wives produced

07:29

Jesus in the pre -existence. So Jesus came into being, ultimately, as the person of Jesus in the pre -existence through a sexual relationship through Heavenly Father and one of His wives.

07:41

And all of us did. Now, when Jesus says, and I know this is something we'll agree with together,

07:48

Jesus says in John 14, 6, I am the way and the truth and the life, so you know it.

07:54

No man comes to the Father but by me. So He is the only way to salvation. We would agree with that. Fundamentally, Jesus is the only way to salvation.

08:02

But the Bible teaches in 2 Corinthians 11 that there are actually other Jesuses, other Christs, other

08:08

Gospels that can't save you. And so, just that one point, I believe Jesus created

08:14

Satan. You believe He's His brother. That's a different Christ. And if we were to take a

08:21

Muslim and bring that Muslim back in the mix again, the Muslim would say, No, you're both bonkers.

08:30

Jesus is not the divine Son of God. He's a prophet. He's the

08:35

Messiah. But again, He didn't die for our sins and He didn't rise from the dead. That's a different Christ.

08:41

Now, can I ask you just a question, like as a thought experiment, because I actually want to know what you would say to this. Say, for example, the

08:47

Muslim came here right now and we were chatting with him together. And then he told the two of you, he said, No, Jesus didn't die for our sins.

08:55

And He didn't rise from the dead. Where would you go to show him he's wrong? What would

09:04

I do? Honestly, I don't know.

09:13

I'm not well versed in Islamic parallels with Christianity. Where we would tie in with that.

09:20

Well, in terms of, I'm not asking for a specific verse, but maybe just like a general idea. He says, Jesus didn't die and He didn't rise from the dead.

09:29

What I know is true. You wouldn't go to the Scriptures to show where it says He did die and rise from the dead? I mean, of course, we could always turn to those, but we're not.

09:37

Well, Muslims fundamentally agree that God has spoken and He's given us the Scriptures and they do affirm the

09:43

Scriptures of the Old Testament. They talk about Christ's coming, those sorts of things. But as an example, you said you would bear your testimony.

09:50

But He would bear His right back at you. And so, then the atheist comes and the atheist bears his testimony.

09:58

And he says, I feel with all my heart that my life is better now, I have more freedom now as a free thinker, as an atheist, and my experience is better than your experience.

10:08

And so, what you have there is now like a Mexican standoff. It's basically experience versus experience.

10:13

And of course, people, we all come from different backgrounds and experiences. And when the time is right, a person has the opportunity to accept

10:23

Christ. And of course, we can't force our beliefs on another person. Of course, like we're doing right now, we're just conversing, discussing.

10:30

Yeah. We reason with them, we share our testimony, our beliefs with them. Ultimately, it comes down to their choice, their agency, whether or not...

10:37

No, I know you agree with that. But that's, I think, a separate issue in terms of their opportunity to turn to Christ, those sorts of things.

10:43

The question is, how do you know what's true? Based on my own experiences and what I've learned.

10:48

You know, the typical radical feminist today, the liberal college student that says, there are no gender distinctions, you can have male -male relationships, female -female relationships.

11:01

I feel in my experience that that's true. I think you and I both would. We'd be on the same page, we'd say, well, hang on now.

11:08

Right. Like, your experience doesn't dictate what's actually true. You have to go to God himself for truth.

11:15

And Jesus says as much. He says, And so, the reason I'm here is because I want to share that with you and say to you, look,

11:25

I care enough about you as a Christian, as a fellow human being, to say, I'll sacrifice a night with my family,

11:32

I'll sacrifice a night doing something else because I care so much about you. And I want to point you to what the scriptures say about God.

11:38

It says that there is only one God, none before, none after. That Jesus Christ is eternal

11:45

God, the creator of all things, including Satan, and including us, not our brother. And Jesus says as much.

11:51

He says that he is the only way to the Father. And if you have a different Christ, you have an imaginary Christ, you have a

11:57

Christ that cannot save you. And that goes, by the way, for me too. That's a double -edged sword.

12:02

It's true for me too. If what I believe about Jesus is false, then I have a false Christ, a Christ that can't save me.

12:09

And so, my hope is to share with you, even though you have this amazing experience, that you say,

12:18

I felt, it's so true. If it contradicts the word of God, if it contradicts what

12:24

Christ has actually said about himself, then no matter what you feel, it's not true. And ultimately, it's condemned.

12:33

Another example is the gospel itself. Your third article of faith.

12:39

It says, we believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and orders of the gospel.

12:50

So, in 2 Nephi 25 -23, it says, by grace are you saved after all you can do.

12:55

Now, the Bible actually, specifically speaks towards that kind of gospel.

13:02

And it calls it anathema, a curse, to teach that you can, through faith in Jesus, and obedience, as an attempt to be righteous before God, if you go that path,

13:15

Paul says, you're under the curse of the law to fulfill all of it. It's either we get the righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith, and his work credited to us as a gift, or we have to stand before God with our own sin and our own unrighteousness.

13:28

It's either you're in Christ, or you stand before God with all your sin. And the only way to Christ, in that way, according to the apostle

13:35

Paul, according to the scriptures, is faith. And it's faith, Romans 3 -28, apart from the works of the law.

13:41

And Mormonism teaches that we are ultimately, through exaltation, we make it to God through our obedience.

13:50

Right? Through our own righteousness. Right. Faith without works is dead. That's right. In James 2, faith without works is dead.

13:56

That has nothing to do with how we're justified before God. It has to do with whether the faith we have is alive or dead.

14:02

A living faith has works. So Christians, by the way, believe that, we believe that if through faith in Jesus Christ, you've been reconciled to God, you've been saved, you've been given the gift of eternal life, you're now alive.

14:13

You're new. And the works that you do are as a result of a new heart, God living within you.

14:19

And the works that you do don't save you or justify you. The works that you do are evidence, ultimately, that your faith is alive.

14:31

And not dead. But Mormonism teaches that we are actually saved by God's grace, through faith, and our obedience.

14:42

And the Bible says to that, Galatians 5, the Apostle Paul speaks directly to that kind of a gospel.

14:48

He doesn't just call it anathema and condemn by God. He doesn't just say you're under the curse now because now you have to do all of the law perfectly because God is a holy

14:55

God and he's just. He says that Christ has become of no effect to you. Whosoever of you attempts to be justified by law or works, you've fallen from grace.

15:06

So it ultimately says, to people who are teaching, it's faith in Jesus, yes. But it's also, keep this one aspect of the law in order to be justified before God.

15:15

Circumcision. He says to people who are teaching that, you are accursed, you're condemned by God, and now you are under obligation to keep the entirety of the law.

15:24

If that's how you're attempting to be righteous before God. I get ya. And that's what this church teaches.

15:31

So, I just want you to know how deeply concerned we are for you as people.

15:38

We love you. We don't want to come here to condemn you. We believe that you're following a false Christ and you have a false gospel.

15:43

And I want you to know something. As you leave here tonight and you, remember this guy that came and interrupted your time. I want you to know that I have no desire at all to rob you of joy or faith or Christ.

15:59

My desire is to just let you know that you're following a false Christ and a false gospel and you can have the living

16:06

God. The living Christ. And you can have peace with God and salvation as a gift now. Not through your own righteousnesses.

16:14

Not through your own deeds. But through Jesus Christ and His work. And you might say, well I know all that language

16:20

Jeff. Like, I use that language. The problem is, is that when you say Jesus you mean a different one.

16:25

When you say gospel you mean a different one. And I just want you to know that we love you.

16:32

We care for you. And listen, you don't have to read this. But would you take it?

16:38

Yeah, I got it. Okay, you got it. And all I want you to do is this. Test what I said.

16:43

And inside, look on the front of this there are actual quotes from Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, Orson Pratt, the apostles and prophets.

16:51

The references are here on the inside. You can check me out. Take a look at the references to see is he getting this right?

17:00

Is he telling the truth? And then compare it to what the Bible says about those things next to it. And then the gospel is on the back.

17:06

And you can get a hold of me. Perfect. Okay? Awesome. Thank you so much. God bless you. Merry Christmas.