Don't Baptize Your Babies!

Sovereign Grace Family Church

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August 3, 2022

00:00: Today I'm joined by Pastor Jeffrey Rice to talk about the subject of baptism.
00:06: Stay tuned.
00:06: Conversations with a Calvinist begins right now.
00:27: Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.
00:29: My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist.
00:33: I want to begin today's program by thanking all of you who have been praying for me the last couple of weeks.
00:38: As many of you know, it was just over a week ago that I had a surgery, and I'm still recovering from that surgery, but I am thankful to be able to report that I at least feel well enough to do a podcast.
00:51: I haven't been able to leave the house very much, but I do these from home, and so I want to thank those of you who have been praying for me and have been encouraging me with your emails and your text messages.
01:02: It's been a real blessing.
01:04: I'm thankful for my fellow elders who have been preaching in my stead, especially Brother Andy last week and then Brother Mike, who is going to be preaching this week.
01:12: So I ask that you continue to pray for me, lift me up during this time, especially as I continue to minister as best I can from home.
01:21: And I'm going to continue today, as I said, ministering through the work of the podcast, and this week I have with me Pastor Jeffrey Rice, and he is the pastor of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church.
01:34: Jeff, thank you for being with me today.
01:36: I appreciate it.
01:37: I appreciate you for reaching out to me and inviting me on your show, and I am a Calvinist as well, so it seems fitting to be on here and to discuss some important issues with you.
01:52: Wonderful.
01:53: And I can say this, anybody who's watching this via video would have to know that you are either a Calvinist or you are playing one well with that beard.
02:03: You have to be a Calvinist, or that beard is pretty epic.
02:08: And one of my fellow elders, Pastor Mike, he has almost that long, but not quite that long.
02:15: You are definitely sporting the trend there, brother.
02:19: Yeah, I have to trim it up every once in a while.
02:21: I really hate doing it, but I learned how to do it myself through trial and error, and sometimes I've, you know, there's been times I've messed it up pretty bad, but.
02:32: Yeah, and Brother Mike one time came to church and his beard was almost all gone.
02:36: And we said, what happened? He said, well, it was a slip of the razor.
02:40: He was trimming it and trimmed the whole side off, and he had to balance it out.
02:45: So, I imagine that would break your heart.
02:48: Yeah, I had a nightmare once where I was cutting it and then ended up cutting it all off, and I woke up sweating, grabbing onto it.
02:57: Oh, it's still there, it's still there.
02:59: So, it was awful.
03:01: That's pretty funny.
03:02: That's pretty funny.
03:03: Well, brother, you are, you came into my life in kind of an interesting way, in that we know each other through Facebook, but I came to know you actually through your work in the ministry of Bible rebinding, which is something that you, I think your company is called Post Tenenbrux Lux, which means after darkness, light, right? Is that correct? Correct, yeah.
03:27: So, it's kind of, you know, Paul may build tents and I bind Bibles.
03:33: You know, it serves as a tent ministry for me.
03:37: I pastor this church.
03:38: It's a small church.
03:40: We're growing, and at the moment, you know, I'm still having to work a full-time job and full-time pastor as well, so.
03:48: Gotcha.
03:48: I understand.
03:49: So, the Bible rebinding allows for you to have sort of a side ministry.
03:53: That's not your full-time job, right? No, it's full-time.
03:56: I do about 45 hours a week.
03:58: Oh, wow.
03:58: Okay, so that's your full-time.
04:00: Okay.
04:00: Yeah, and so from 8 o'clock to midnight, I stay up and do my personal study and also do my preparation for the Sunday message.
04:13: Wonderful.
04:13: Wonderful.
04:14: Well, that's interesting.
04:15: I know that the work that you do is acclaimed by many people.
04:21: I know specifically Dr.
04:23: James White.
04:24: He's a friend, and I've seen him promote your work with his Bibles that you've done, and I've seen other people with them.
04:30: I don't personally own one, but knowing that that's your full-time job and that that's helping minister, I'll have to get me one just to support.
04:38: And if somebody wanted to do that, if somebody wanted to support you by purchasing a Bible from you, how do they get ahold of you through that? Well, you can find us.
04:50: Every social media you can think of, we're on.
04:54: So Twitter and all the good stuff.
04:57: Facebook normally is where people find us and contact us.
05:01: There's our Facebook page, Post Tenderbreast Looks Bible Rebinding, and also through our website, ptlbiblerebinding.com.
05:10: Wonderful.
05:11: Wonderful.
05:12: Yeah.
05:12: And on those, they'll have a phone number.
05:15: So if you want to talk to me directly, you can do so, or talk to my wife.
05:20: You can just call.
05:21: But we're pretty responsive on answering message, working with people.
05:28: Great.
05:29: And how did you get into doing that? Is that just a hobby that became a job, or was that something that you grew up doing? Well, I roofed houses for 25 years, and I got to where I couldn't do it no more.
05:42: I came down with banal positional vertigo, and so I was no longer allowed to be on ladders or anything like that.
05:51: I mean, there's times even today.
05:53: I mean, it wasn't long ago, probably eight or nine months ago, I'm at my desk working on a Bible, and I passed out.
06:03: So just to kind of, you know, I mean, I had a pretty traumatizing childhood.
06:11: So growing up, when I was 11, I was kidnapped.
06:14: Oh, goodness.
06:16: And then when I was 14, so telling you this story in short, just to tell you why, I got the vertigo.
06:26: And when I was 14, I got robbed at gunpoint and beat up.
06:30: And so I entered a gang to have, so people would have my back.
06:37: And, you know, 9-11, when the towers fell, a gentleman was coming out of his house, and he said that this is in the Bible.
06:47: And I replied.
06:49: I said, you know what? People say a lot of things are in the Bible.
06:52: I'm just going to read it and find out for myself.
06:54: Turned to find out it wasn't in the Bible.
06:57: And so 9-11, I started reading the Bible for the first time, and I read it every day.
07:03: And probably about a course of five years, you know, I had great understanding.
07:07: I was regenerated.
07:09: And I just started, you know, walking a Christian, trying to walk the Christian life.
07:14: Like I had not, like I knew the Bible well, but living it practically was rough.
07:21: And I didn't know why.
07:23: But whenever I started passing out, I went to the hospital, and they started digging into my past because they couldn't figure it out either.
07:32: And it turns out that I had PTSD from what happened to me when I was a child.
07:38: And so, and in PTSD, you have what's called fight or flight.
07:44: And so, you know, growing up being in a gang, I was very violent until I became a Christian.
07:55: And then when I became a Christian, and when I didn't know how to handle things with words, and I knew I couldn't handle things with my fist, I would run away from a lot of problems, a lot of altercations, because I didn't know how to fight with my words.
08:10: And so, and because of that, I guess I was, you know, like things were building up and they were never being released.
08:20: And so, I never told anyone what happened to me or anything like that.
08:25: But whenever I started expressing what took place in my life, like things started to get better in my life.
08:32: And so, whenever I feel that need to run, I don't run anymore.
08:37: I, you know, I now use my words to have intelligent conversations.
08:44: And so, because of the PTSD, whenever the vertigo, whenever I get vertigo, if I start to panic, it causes my brain to shut off and I collapse.
08:59: But that doesn't always happen.
09:02: It only happens if the PTSD kicks in.
09:05: Yeah.
09:07: Yeah.
09:07: And so, again, once or twice a year, I might pass out.
09:11: But for the most part, I just feel like a hamster in a ball.
09:16: Someone's shaking it up.
09:18: But so, I couldn't do roofing any longer.
09:21: And I tried other jobs and it just wouldn't work.
09:24: And I kept, you know, I mean, construction work and stuff like that.
09:28: And I bought an expensive Bible.
09:34: It's a Schuyler-Quintel, and I was holding it.
09:36: And I was just thinking to myself, I said, man, I bet I can make this.
09:40: Because I was a master at copper, forming copper around chimneys.
09:46: And I just sewed some Bibles that I had, some expensive Bibles, and bought some leather, and began to practice, and would show my stuff on Facebook.
09:57: And next thing I know, I got really popular at it and started selling it.
10:00: And it was paying my bills.
10:03: Wow.
10:04: And especially when Dr.
10:05: White got a hold of one of my Bibles and was advertising for me.
10:09: So, I went from barely having any work to having a lot of work.
10:15: And I know it's God's hand on me causing it to happen.
10:21: But I'm very grateful for Dr.
10:25: White.
10:26: And I consider him a friend, whether he considers me a friend.
10:29: I consider him a friend.
10:31: I love him.
10:33: And I'm glad that God used him in my life.
10:37: Well, praise the Lord for that.
10:38: I'm sure he'd like to hear that.
10:40: So, when in all of this, when did you enter the ministry? Did you do that through, did you plan a church, or did you get called to a church? So, I was actually ordained in 2010 through assemblies of God, churches of God, like Pentecostal, Trinitarian Pentecostals.
11:07: And I was involved in jail ministry.
11:10: And then I was involved, I began to get involved with church planting through that organization.
11:18: And at the jail ministry, I was preaching through the book of Genesis, you know, verse by verse.
11:24: And so, when we planned this church, I said, you know what, I'm going to preach through the book of John verse by verse.
11:30: And by the time I got to John chapter 3, you must be born again, like I realized that it was going against the theology that I held to.
11:41: And so, I very calmly stepped into the pulpit and said, I'm about to say something that if you go to the 16 fundamentals of what we held to, it contradicts.
11:51: But I want to give what the scripture says.
11:54: And so, after that sermon, I just kind of stepped down and tried to reevaluate what it is that I believe.
12:00: And I ended up, you know, knowing that I was a Baptist, and I would rather sit in the pew than to preach behind a pulpit against my convictions.
12:13: And so, but I always felt like God's, you know, hand was on me.
12:19: But I continued to do street ministry and stuff like that.
12:23: We had a ministry called Resurrect Your City.
12:26: It was going out witnessing and doing street preaching.
12:29: So, I've been street preaching, I don't know, 11, 12 years now.
12:33: Okay.
12:33: And doing one-on-one witnessing.
12:37: Well, a friend of mine was a pastor of a church up here in Manchester, and I began to, you know, go there.
12:46: So, I was a member of the Reformed Baptist Church of Nashville.
12:52: So, the guy that was a pastor in Manchester was a friend of mine from street preaching.
12:57: So, I began to attend, and I immediately started ministering to the people there, teaching them the Bible.
13:03: And so, I moved my family to be a part of this church.
13:07: And he ended up stepping down from the pulpit ministry, and then they, instead of reforming the church, they were going back to being Southern Baptists.
13:15: And I couldn't do that.
13:18: And this was during COVID.
13:20: And so, a church in upstate New York reached out to us and wanted to plant a church and asked me, you know.
13:29: I had a lot of people at that time, you know, learning from me and stuff like that.
13:34: And so, we moved forward in planting Covenant Reformed Baptist Church.
13:39: So, they called me up there.
13:40: I preached for them.
13:41: I taught Sunday school, preached for them.
13:45: Hung out with them for a few days, you know.
13:47: And then they came down here.
13:50: They voted, came down here, and laid hands on me and sent me out as a church plant from their church.
13:59: So, that would be Christus King Baptist Church in upstate New York, Syracuse.
14:05: Nice, nice.
14:06: So, that would mean the church that you're in there is a couple years old then? So, you guys are coming up on? Yeah, so we're about two.
14:14: So, this past May 30th or 31st was our second year.
14:20: Nice, nice.
14:23: And we just got us a building.
14:26: So, we're remodeling the building.
14:28: Yeah, because we've been meeting, you know, here and there.
14:31: We started out in a hotel conference room, then was meeting at another conference room.
14:37: And for the last year and a half, we've been meeting at a women's center.
14:41: And so, we just pulled the trigger, and we got us a 3,000-square-foot building.
14:50: And we're doing some remodeling.
14:52: So, we should have our first service there the 28th of August.
14:57: Oh, praise the Lord.
14:58: That's awesome.
14:59: That's good to hear.
15:00: We're excited.
15:02: Well, one of the other things that I know that you do, and we are eventually going to get to the conversation of baptism, but before we do, I wanted to ask you about open-air theology, because I know that you also have that that you do, and we talked a little bit before the program that you do that with some other men, but you founded that.
15:18: Now, open-air theology, most of us have heard of open-air preaching, and our church engages in open-air preaching.
15:24: Brother Mike is an open-air preacher, and I go out with him, and we preach sometimes.
15:30: But what is open-air theology, and what were you trying to accomplish with that? Well, it's kind of like combining the two.
15:37: So, every one of us on open-air theology are open-air preachers.
15:43: And, you know, in our spare time, we would just get, you know, we'd have conversations back and forth on the phone, whether it be, you know, Facebook Messenger and stuff like that, and we would just talk theology.
15:55: And so we wanted to do a podcast and call it, combine the two things that we did, open-air preach and talk theology.
16:04: And we wanted it to be to where we would encourage people to, you know, witness, but also, you know, theology, like you can't talk about God without talking theology, right? And so, and by it being on the web, I mean on the Internet, it's kind of in the open-air.
16:31: And because we go live, like we don't pre-record or anything.
16:36: We just go live, and it's kind of whatever you see is what you get.
16:40: If we mess up, we don't go back and edit.
16:43: You know, what happens in open-air theology, everyone views it.
16:46: If you watch it, you see it.
16:47: And so it's just kind of combining the two things that we loved, open-air preaching and talking theology.
16:54: And so it's a fun name, very catchy.
16:58: Yeah, absolutely.
16:59: And that's the way my wife and I were actually recently talking about the, how podcasts have sort of become like digital tracks, and open-air theology is sort of like another, it's a live podcast is what you're doing, a live stream message.
17:15: And it's an opportunity where somebody who's going through Facebook, you know, people I know from high school who I haven't talked to for years, but they're on my Facebook.
17:22: I know they're hearing about Jesus from somebody, from me, at least from, you know, and that's the way I see a lot of this in regard to a new open-air opportunity where, you know, we're not afraid to go stand on the street corner, and we do, but also there's the street corner of the digital medium that we're using.
17:43: And I think that that's a valuable thing.
17:45: So it's good.
17:46: And like I said, I enjoyed, I listened to the one that you guys did on Matthew 24.
17:52: We still got a bunch more to go through.
17:55: Yeah, yeah.
17:56: Well, I'm a partial preterist.
17:58: I'm a millennialist.
17:59: I know a lot of partial preterists like yourself are post-mill.
18:02: So we would- I'm not post-mill.
18:04: Oh, I thought I saw you with a shirt that said post-mill.
18:07: I'm sorry.
18:07: Well, you did.
18:09: So I was post-mill.
18:11: Okay.
18:11: But I recanted.
18:13: Oh, okay.
18:15: Okay.
18:15: Yeah.
18:15: All right.
18:16: What brought you back over to the kingdom? Well, I was very dispensational in the beginning, and then I kind of went historical pre, and I kind of jumped over all and went to post.
18:32: But the thing that really separated me was when I was preaching through Galatians and then kind of listening to the reconstructionism and then all this talk about theonomy, and I knew that theonomy has been made to be something that it isn't.
18:51: If I was to ask you, hey, are you gay? Your response would be- No, absolutely.
18:57: 100% absolute unblemished record of heterosexuality.
19:01: Yeah.
19:02: But you are happy, right? Oh, yeah.
19:05: Absolutely.
19:06: Yeah.
19:06: So the word gay actually means happy, but our world has turned it into something perverse, perversion, like it's perverted now.
19:17: And I think that's what's taken place with the word theonomy, because it's theos, numos, God's law.
19:24: And so we want to say that we're for God's law, but the way that it's being presented in this theonomic movement, it's very unbiblical.
19:35: And so it's trying to drag people back into the old covenant under the mosaic law.
19:41: Yeah.
19:42: And we want to say the transcendent law, the 10 words the Jews call it, the Decalogue, us reformed people call it, but it's mostly known as the 10 commandments.
19:55: Like these things are written in our heart and in our mind if we're in the new covenant.
20:03: Right? We don't need a tablet of stone any longer.
20:06: Sure.
20:07: The stone that we no longer need on the back of it was the precepts and rules that were for the geopolitical nation of Israel.
20:20: And so now we can look at these things and glean from it, but we're not to establish these things as law in the church.
20:29: And so I saw that it was very unbiblical.
20:32: And so I started calling myself, I tell someone I was a post male, but I would say, but I'm not a theonomist.
20:39: And it was just a lot of caveat.
20:42: And so, but then I started seeing that the only way post male really works is if you're a theonomist.
20:49: And so a lot of them had this idea that we in time are going to build the kingdom of God.
20:57: And it just kind of goes against scripture.
21:00: Jesus speaking and, you know, in John chapter three, Nicodemus comes to him, you know, Nicodemus is in the earthly kingdom and he's telling them about a different kingdom, the kingdom of God.
21:14: And unless you're born again, you cannot see it.
21:16: That's with your eyes.
21:18: And you cannot enter it with your feet, meaning that the kingdom of God is not something that you can see with your eyes or enter with your feet unless you're born again.
21:26: So it's not something that's geopolitical on the earth now, but it is encompassed in the church.
21:34: So it's kind of like this already, not yet.
21:37: The church is a representation of the kingdom, but it does not have walls.
21:43: Now, when Jesus returns, you know, the consummation of all things, yes, that will be true.
21:51: But until then, if there's ever a moment in time where we can say, oh, there it is.
21:56: We can see it here.
21:57: Let us enter it.
21:59: Then that means you don't have to be born again to see it or enter it.
22:02: So it goes against the gospel.
22:04: And so pushes me to.
22:07: So, you know, I was like, well, maybe I am all millennials.
22:10: Yeah.
22:10: And but I'm probably the most preterist amillennialist you'll ever meet.
22:16: Yeah.
22:16: Yeah.
22:16: I noticed you were you took a I don't want to say a stronger preteristic view, but but a little more firm preteristic view on Matthew 24 than did your friend who who was more saying it was already not yet kind of position you were saying Matthew 24 was completely fulfilled in 80, 70.
22:35: Well, from 80, 66, 87.
22:38: Sure.
22:38: Yeah.
22:39: Yeah, absolutely.
22:40: Absolutely.
22:41: Yeah.
22:41: And I know a few years ago I was invited to to a conference to speak.
22:46: And the only reason I was invited to speak was I was the only I was the only preterist they could find.
22:50: It was a it was an eschatology conference and they had their they had they had lined up guys wanting to do the dispensational.
22:57: They had guys, you know, who were willing to do the other positions.
22:59: But I was the only one who was who was willing to come and speak for partial preterism or what I called orthodox preterism, you know.
23:07: Yeah.
23:07: Yeah.
23:08: So but anyway, so that's that's a position we share.
23:11: And I think that's that's interesting.
23:12: And I enjoyed listening to that.
23:14: So.
23:14: So if somebody wants to listen to open air theology, how do how do they get a hold of that? Well, if you're on YouTube, you have to go through my personal site, which is my two cents.
23:25: That's spelled with a Z.
23:26: My two cents with Jeff Rice, but also on Facebook.
23:30: I stream it live on my Facebook page.
23:32: And we also have a a page, open air theology that you can follow.
23:37: And there's also a group open air theology that you can join.
23:43: OK, so that's strange from all of them.
23:46: Different ways.
23:46: Very good.
23:47: Very good.
23:47: Very good.
23:48: Well, we said we were a couple of Baptist pastors and we were going to talk about baptism.
23:52: So I do want to I want to swing the conversation into that direction.
23:56: And one of the one of the things that I have noticed recently, and I wanted to get your thoughts on this, is that even within even within my small circle and, you know, I have a small church, we have a church of just, you know, 80 or so regular attenders on Sunday morning.
24:15: So it's not a big church.
24:17: But we have people who come from various backgrounds and we do have people who've come from Presbyterian churches who've made their home with us, knowing that we're reformed Baptist.
24:28: And most of them are fine.
24:30: A lot of them are older, so they don't have infants that they're worried about baptizing or things like that.
24:34: Sometimes the grandkids come along and they do have issues with that and they want to talk to us about it.
24:38: But for the most part, it's not something that we've had to deal with in the in the church.
24:43: But we have we have had to deal with it from people in our church who are being influenced by bigger name ministries.
24:53: And I do want to throw a name out there.
24:54: And I want to say that I respect this gentleman and I respect his ministry.
24:57: So this is in no way a dig at him.
25:01: I appreciate a lot of what Canon Plus does.
25:03: But Doug Wilson has had a tremendous impact, especially on some folks, even in my own congregation, who are listening.
25:10: They've got the Canon Plus app.
25:12: They've seen the debates.
25:13: They've heard him talk.
25:15: And I've been getting more questions, you know, Pastor, were we wrong for not baptizing our babies? And of course, I would say no.
25:25: But what I wanted to do with you, Jeff, is I wanted to sort of just talk again.
25:29: And I've talked about this on the program before.
25:30: But knowing I was going to have a Baptist pastor on and somebody who shares the same convictions I do.
25:35: What do you do when when people start challenging you? And I'm going to give you some of the challenges.
25:41: I want you to tell me how you would answer if someone came up and said some things.
25:46: Is that all right with you? If I kind of please, I'm not going to be the I hate the term devil's advocate because I'm not.
25:52: Well, you've watched Open Earth Theology, so it's a lot of back and forth on there.
25:58: Yeah.
25:59: I'm going to pose to you the thoughts that I have heard and I want you to tell me as a fellow Baptist pastor how you would respond.
26:07: You told me before the program you've had people come to you already in your church who've come from other from other backgrounds and you've been able to share with them the scriptures.
26:16: So I'm going to ask you sort of similar questions.
26:18: And this is just for the benefit of anybody who's listening, who might say, hey, man, I heard Doug Wilson talk about, you know, baptizing kids or I heard R.C.
26:27: Sproul.
26:27: Obviously, he's passed away now.
26:29: But, you know, how many people have been in.
26:31: I call them R.C.
26:32: the Baptist now.
26:33: Yeah, absolutely.
26:36: Absolutely.
26:37: And I'd like to say that I love Doug Wilson.
26:39: I respect him.
26:41: I shook his hand and, you know, I've met him in person and I have a spiritual gift to where I can listen to people that I disagree with and appreciate them for, you know, and everything like that.
26:52: But but on this issue, I definitely disagree.
26:56: And I disagree, you know, totally.
26:59: So Chocolate Knox has that thing.
27:01: Like if you watch their little show, he has a little thing where he pushes his baptized shit, says baptize your kids.
27:07: If you have children.
27:08: When I first seen him in person, I screamed out, don't baptize your kids.
27:12: If you have children.
27:13: He laughed.
27:14: I laughed.
27:14: We hugged.
27:15: I mean, you know, we pick fun at each other.
27:17: But I'm very strong in my position and what I believe.
27:21: Yeah, I think.
27:23: And I think if we were to sit down like I don't think they'd have a chance.
27:27: Yeah.
27:28: Yeah, absolutely.
27:29: Well, before I before I even go to the next question, I want to ask you is what do you think of churches that have a dual covenant view where they have Presbyterians and Baptists together and it's kind of to each his own within one under one roof? Because I've seen that coming up more lately where you got some Baptist elders and some Presbyterian elders and they come together.
27:52: They have a church and they say, you know what, if this person wants to baptize his babies, he can or if this person doesn't, he's not going to.
27:59: What would what would your response to that be? I know what I think, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.
28:04: Well, I used to attend a church like that for a short season.
28:08: And when it came to I thought I would be fine with it.
28:12: And when it came time that they were going to baptize a child, I didn't show up for that service.
28:18: And so I was convicted.
28:21: Right.
28:22: And I was like, listen, if I'm not going to show up for something that they're committed to, if you hold to that view, then I don't need to show up at that church.
28:32: And so I think I don't think it works because it leans more into the Presbyterian favor.
28:40: Yeah, because at the end of the day, they're not offended when we baptize a believer, but it's we who would be offended.
28:48: I truly do.
28:49: I remember the first time my wife and I visited R.C.
28:52: Sproul's church.
28:53: My wife didn't know he was Presbyterian.
28:55: This was early on in our ministry.
28:57: And we went down.
28:58: It was before they even had the new St.
28:59: Andrew's building.
28:59: It was the old St.
29:01: Andrew's building, which was beautiful.
29:02: It was like a castle, a little small building, but the inside had beautiful wood architecture.
29:07: And my wife and I were leaving.
29:10: And she said, the stained glass behind the pulpit was beautiful.
29:15: I said, yeah, it was.
29:15: It was seraphim around the throne.
29:19: And she said, but where's their baptistry? I said, baby, didn't you see the birdbath up there? She said, no way.
29:29: I said, yeah, they baptize babies.
29:32: They sprinkle or pour.
29:35: And boy, she was beside herself.
29:36: She was not happy.
29:37: She's like, I mean, here's a guy who we love.
29:39: And we did.
29:39: I mean, we loved R.C.
29:40: We got to meet him several times, and we're very grateful for his ministry.
29:44: But that was always a tough, tough pill to swallow was that.
29:49: It was difficult.
29:50: That was difficult.
29:51: All right.
29:51: So let's say I come to you and I say, what do you go? Pastor Jeff or how do people? Yeah, Pastor Jeff.
29:59: I say, all right, Pastor Jeff, I have recently been watching Canon Plus.
30:07: I have recently been listening to these guys talk about the importance of baptizing my infants.
30:13: And one of the arguments they make is that my children are part of the covenant because of being born as a believer.
30:23: First Corinthians seven does tell me that they were born that children of a believing parent are sanctified.
30:31: If my children are sanctified, why shouldn't I baptize them? Well, the children are not born into the covenant.
30:43: I mean, so so this is whenever you get into covenant theology.
30:47: And so the Presbyterian stream of covenant theology, if even even in their stream of thought, like it doesn't line up in my head.
31:01: Right.
31:01: So, you know, like to them, there's no discontinuity, really.
31:06: So they say, you know, circumcision as pointing to baptism.
31:10: So if circumcision is the old covenant sign and the new covenant sign is baptism, which I agree, the new covenant sign is baptism.
31:20: And then, you know, so whenever a a child was born under the old covenant, they were born that they were in the covenant.
31:30: Right.
31:31: And so they would circumcise them.
31:33: But the problem is, is that when under the new covenant, children are not born in the covenant.
31:40: They are born dead in their trespasses and sins.
31:45: They have to be born again in order to be in the covenant.
31:50: You see what I'm saying? So like earlier, we was talking about Nicodemus.
31:53: Nicodemus was in the old covenant, like he was born in the kingdom of the earthly, the earthly kingdom people.
32:03: Right.
32:03: The Jews.
32:06: Nicodemus was born in the covenant, in the kingdom, the earthly kingdom people.
32:13: And because he was born in the kingdom, he was to receive the sign of circumcision.
32:20: Right.
32:21: So in order for someone to receive the sign of baptism, they must be born again because they're not in the kingdom.
32:27: In order to be in the kingdom, you have to see it.
32:30: You have to be born again to see it.
32:32: You have to be born again to enter it.
32:33: Now, once you are in the covenant, in the kingdom, then you take the covenant sign.
32:38: Nowhere in the old covenant does it say that I hate to use this kind of wording, but nowhere in the in the Old Testament does it say that they went into the mother's womb.
32:51: And circumcised the child before it was born.
32:56: So old covenant, they had to be born and then they were born in the kingdom and then they received the sign.
33:03: All right.
33:04: Transfer that to the new covenant.
33:06: You must be born again.
33:08: Only those who are born again receive the covenant sign.
33:13: Like if you just look at Romans chapter.
33:19: Chapter eight, I believe.
33:23: Chapter eight, verse nine says this.
33:34: You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if in fact the spirit of God dwells in you.
33:42: So the only way that you are in the spirit is if the spirit of God dwells in you.
33:47: You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if in fact the spirit of God dwells in you.
33:53: Anyone who does not have the spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
34:02: If you are if you do not have the spirit of Christ, this is what you get when you're born again.
34:08: Right.
34:08: You go from not believing here in the gospel.
34:12: Regeneration occurs.
34:13: You're given faith to believe you receive the spirit by hearing in faith.
34:19: Right.
34:20: Infants can't believe like that.
34:23: So they're not born again.
34:25: Once you are born again, you have the spirit of Christ.
34:28: Then you are in your in Christ.
34:32: How can you be in in Christ and in Adam? Because they're saying that their kids are in the new covenant, but yet they're in Adam.
34:43: Yeah, you can't have it both ways.
34:46: Yeah.
34:46: And that's because of their it's because of their covenant theology, which I believe is faulty.
34:51: That leads them to believe that.
34:53: Yeah, absolutely.
34:55: And I do want to mention another passage.
34:57: I looked it up while you were while you were speaking.
35:00: This is the passage that's often used to connect baptism and circumcision.
35:04: And that is Colossians chapter two, verses 11 and 12.
35:09: It says in him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.
35:18: Having been buried with him in baptism in which you were also raised with him through faith and the powerful working of God who raised him from the dead.
35:27: And so they would say that that here we have the old covenant picture of circumcision fulfilled in the new covenant action of baptism.
35:39: And they would make a one to one parallel in regard to the covenant sign.
35:45: Now, you've said you don't see necessarily a problem with that.
35:48: It's just who's receiving the.
35:50: Well, I do have a problem with that.
35:54: OK.
35:54: So the sign of the covenant is baptism.
35:57: Yes.
35:58: Circumcision doesn't point to baptism.
36:00: OK.
36:01: All right.
36:01: Tell us.
36:02: All right.
36:02: Yeah.
36:03: So.
36:03: OK.
36:04: So let's take the Pascal lamb.
36:07: Yeah.
36:08: All right.
36:08: The Pascal lamb doesn't point to the Lord's Supper.
36:12: The Pascal lamb points to Jesus Christ.
36:14: John the Baptist saw Jesus and he says, behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
36:20: OK.
36:20: Speaking of the Pascal lamb, the Pascal lamb points to Jesus.
36:24: Right.
36:25: Then the Lord's Supper points to Jesus.
36:29: The circumcision.
36:31: Points to Jesus.
36:33: And that's what this is speaking about.
36:35: It's pointing to Jesus, his death, burial and resurrection.
36:39: Our baptism points to Jesus and his death, burial and resurrection.
36:43: So if you look at Ephesians to 11, it kind of it tells you what the what the circumcision of hands is.
36:53: So chapter two, verse 11 says, therefore, remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh called the uncircumcised by what is called the circumcised, which is made in the flesh by hands.
37:10: So circumcision is made in the flesh by hands.
37:16: And over here in the text Colossians, it says in him also you are circumcised with a circumcision made without hands.
37:30: Yeah.
37:30: So this circumcision that it's speaking about is not the circumcision of the cutting of the foreskin.
37:37: The cutting of the foreskin is made with hands.
37:41: So whatever this circumcision is, it's made without hands.
37:45: It's done to us without hands.
37:48: So if you continue, if you go back to excuse me, verse nine, it gets into the in hymns for in hymns.
37:56: Speaking of Christ, the nearest center seated, the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.
38:02: So in the body of Christ, the deity of God dwells.
38:07: He is God in and of himself.
38:10: And you have been filled in him.
38:14: So the believers are filled in him who is the head and the ruler, the rule and authorities in him.
38:20: Also, you are circumcised with a circumcision made without hands.
38:26: And it tells you right here by putting off the body of flesh.
38:31: Here it is by the circumcision of Christ.
38:35: So the circumcision made without hands is the circumcision of Christ.
38:40: So we ask ourselves now, is this talking about when he was an infant and he was circumcised? Is that the circumcision that were made that's made without hands that is given to us? Well, no, let's keep reading.
38:56: Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you also were raised with him through faith and the powerful working of God who raised him from the dead.
39:06: And right here, and you were dead in your trespasses in the uncircumcision of your flesh.
39:12: Which God made alive together with him, having forgiven us of our trespasses by counseling the record of death that stood against us with its legal demands.
39:22: This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
39:25: So right here, it's telling us that the circumcision that we're circumcised with, that's made without hands, is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.
39:35: And we enter that circumcision through our baptism.
39:39: And that's what Romans chapter 5 is about.
39:41: So if you go to Romans chapter 5, it gives you that same language.
39:46: No, excuse me, Romans 6, forgive me.
39:48: Romans 6, verse 3, Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were buried with him into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism.
40:04: So in order that just as Christ Jesus was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in the newness of life.
40:13: And so you see that the circumcision points to Christ's death, burial and resurrection, and our baptism points to Christ's death, burial and resurrection.
40:23: So the circumcision that saves us is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
40:29: It's the gospel.
40:30: Everything points to the gospel.
40:33: They don't point to one another.
40:37: The Lord's Supper is not a continuation of the Paschal Lamb, and baptism is not a continuation of circumcision.
40:46: Though it is the two ordinances that we are, ordinances or sacraments, however you want to call it, that we are to follow.
40:53: Those who are baptized receive the Lord's Supper.
40:57: Those who have the sign of the covenant.
40:59: Yeah, okay.
41:03: Sounds good.
41:04: Yeah, I'm following you.
41:06: I'm thinking of how the response would be from the other side.
41:11: I'm always trying to think of what— Well, if you want to get into the covenant.
41:15: So their argument is that the covenant of grace began in Genesis 3.15.
41:21: Sure.
41:21: So if we can prove that the covenant of grace didn't begin in Genesis 3.15, their whole argument is faulty because the idea is that there really isn't a new covenant.
41:34: It's the old covenant repackaged.
41:39: And what's new about it is baptism is the sign, the Lord's Supper is one of the ordinances, and that children, meaning infant girls, are now brought into it.
41:58: So if you go to Genesis 3.15— Yeah, this is what's often referred to as the proto-evangelium.
42:05: Correct.
42:06: Now, you would agree that this points to Christ.
42:10: This points to the fulfillment of the work of Christ.
42:13: Absolutely.
42:13: But where you're differing is you would say this is not the introduction of the covenant of grace, but rather this points to the new covenant or the work of Christ.
42:23: Yeah, because they would say that the covenant of grace begins here.
42:27: And I would say, no, it gives a promise and a fulfillment.
42:31: So if you read it, it says—this is God speaking to the serpent.
42:36: So the promise of the covenant of grace is actually a curse to the serpent.
42:42: Mm-hmm.
42:42: So our promise is this curse.
42:44: He says, I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your offspring and her offspring.
42:54: He—talking about this offspring— will bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
43:00: So where in that passage does it say that it began then? Well, what it does say is that a promise is given.
43:10: The promise is that he's going to put enmity between his offspring and the offspring of the serpent, and that this offspring, which I believe is Jesus, will bruise his head and he will bruise his heel.
43:25: So the promise is that our offspring's coming and that this offspring is going to bruise his head while only bruising his heel.
43:31: The fulfillment of this is when the offspring comes and bruises his head while only bruising his heel, which is the crucifixion.
43:39: So this right here is telling us that the covenant of grace does not begin until the bruising of the serpent's head while his heel is being bruised.
43:53: There's a promise and a fulfillment.
43:55: To say that it is established then is reading into Scripture horribly bad.
44:01: Like, it's awful.
44:03: I challenge any Presbyterian to show me in this text where it begins here.
44:11: It's not there.
44:12: There's a promise and there's a fulfillment, and that is through the gospel, the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ.
44:19: Everything points to the gospel.
44:22: Absolutely, absolutely.
44:24: And I know that there's a debate within the covenant theology community about the covenant of grace because, as you said, the Presbyterians would argue that it starts here, and Reformed Baptists would say that the covenant of grace is within the new covenant.
44:46: And I don't want to go too far into this, but this also lends to the question of the covenant of works regarding Adam and regarding the Mosaic law.
44:58: Was that a republication of the covenant of works and things like that? So there's a lot more of a deeper dive into covenant theology that most people don't even get around to that.
45:10: I mean, your rank and file, every Sunday believer, is probably not concerned about where the covenant of works began and where the covenant of grace ends or those questions, but those are part and parcel of what make up this argument.
45:25: Am I correct? I mean, this is where the divide is between— it's not just whether you baptize your babies.
45:31: It's a question of where the covenant of grace begins.
45:35: Yes, so when you're dealing with the covenant of works, so they would see that only the covenant given to Adam is the covenant of works.
45:44: But listen, anywhere where there's a command given for you to follow, that's a covenant of works.
45:53: So whether it's Adam, the Mosaic covenant— I mean, Adam, the Abrahamic covenant, there was a command given that they must follow.
46:02: Abraham must walk before him blameless.
46:04: They must circumcise their children.
46:08: The Mosaic law, keep this law in order to live in the land.
46:12: If you break this law, we will remove you from the land.
46:16: The Davidic covenant, someone was going to come.
46:20: One of David's sons had to obey in order to sit on the throne.
46:26: All these things, commands are given.
46:30: A law is given that must be obeyed.
46:33: No one is able to obey it.
46:36: The covenant of grace is it is finished.
46:40: Jesus came, kept the covenant.
46:44: Because like let's say with Adam.
46:51: The confessions will kind of give you this idea.
46:53: If Adam would have kept the law, being the federal head, he would have earned eternal life for himself and his posterity.
47:04: His posterity didn't have to keep the law.
47:07: He had to keep the law.
47:08: And he would have earned eternal life for himself and his posterity.
47:12: Jesus came, kept the law, and he earned eternal life for all those who believe in him.
47:17: The law was keep the law and live in the land.
47:20: Jesus came, kept the law.
47:22: And by doing so, he earned the land, specifically the world, the meek shall inherit the earth for all those who believe in him.
47:32: So he lived the life that we could not live.
47:35: And he took the punishment because we could not live that life to himself.
47:40: Our righteousness positionally is in Christ.
47:43: He lived the life that we could not live.
47:44: He took the punishment that we deserve.
47:51: Okay.
47:52: I want to take a step back because, again, we could dive into a little bit more of the covenant theology, and maybe one day I'll have you back and we'll do that.
48:03: Because there are some issues that I have with even our Baptist covenant theology.
48:10: I think sometimes we miss the mark.
48:14: But that's, again, a conversation for another time.
48:17: Are you a 20th century or are you a Federalist? I'm actually neither, and that's what we didn't talk about this before the show, and this may take us into a lot.
48:26: I'm more of what you would refer to as a progressive covenantal Steve Willem.
48:31: Those guys, are you familiar with that? Not really.
48:34: Okay.
48:35: A little bit.
48:36: It used to be called New Covenant theology, but I'm not.
48:42: Fred Zaspel, Tom's.
48:45: Yeah.
48:45: I know New Covenant.
48:48: I would think so.
48:50: Where we take issue is with the covenant of works, understanding Adam's ability to truly procure his own righteousness.
48:59: That's where a lot of the question comes in for New Covenant theology.
49:02: I would say that there's no way that he could have.
49:07: Christ is not a plan B.
49:09: Yeah, exactly.
49:09: Like I said, that's a whole other conversation, but I would say we agree more with the Federalists than they want to admit, because we do believe that the New Covenant is covenant of grace in that sense.
49:24: We don't typically use that language, but it's basically the same.
49:29: Where we would differ with guys like Richard Barcellas and Jim Renahan is they would hold to a very specific view of Adam's covenant of works being a covenant that can establish his own righteousness.
49:45: That's where New Covenant theology, and particularly progressive covenantalism, would say, not necessarily.
49:51: We don't see it that way.
49:52: There's even some differences.
49:54: Well, it's just this idea, because he is the federal head.
49:59: Because of his sin, all humanity fell into sin, correct? And we agree with that.
50:04: Absolutely.
50:04: We would say he was our representative, and he does represent us.
50:09: The issue is, was his, and again, like I said, we go far into this, was the prohibition that God made for the tree of knowledge accompanied by a promise? And that's where the covenant of works would say, yes, it's accompanied by the promise that if you don't eat, you will live.
50:30: And then they establish a probationary period.
50:33: If he hadn't eaten for this long, then he would have lived forever.
50:36: Well, that's the part we say, that's not there.
50:39: We don't see a probationary period.
50:41: Yeah, there's definitely not a probationary period, but it's kind of like if he would have eaten from the tree of life, like even after the fall, it says if he would have reached out and eat from the tree of life, he would live forever.
50:54: So it's just this idea of a federal headship.
50:57: So because of his one sin, death and sin entered the world, if he would have eaten from the tree, if he would have picked the right tree.
51:04: And listen, I don't believe that he could have picked the right tree, because Christ is not a plan B.
51:09: But we're just going this hypothetical.
51:12: And that's another thing, it is hypothetical, and that's why I try not to divide over this issue with other brothers.
51:18: I still consider myself Reformed.
51:19: I still consider myself a Baptist.
51:21: I definitely consider myself, we hold to the 1646 Confession at Archer rather than 1689.
51:27: And for that, typically where we differ the most with our 1689 brethren is how we practice the Lord's Day.
51:35: We would say the Lord's Day is the Lord's Day, but we don't practice it as a Sabbath.
51:39: So there's a distinction there.
51:41: We would see it as the Sabbath is being fulfilled in the work of Christ, therefore we're resting in him.
51:47: Again, another topic for another day.
51:51: I think I would agree with you some there.
51:55: 1 John makes it clear, this is how we know that we've come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
52:03: And then the answer to that is 1 John 3, verse 23, says, and this is his commandments, that we believe in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ, and love our neighbors as ourselves.
52:13: The first four decalogue, the first four commandments, are fulfilled in believing in Jesus Christ.
52:18: You love God with all your heart, mind, body, and soul, and strength by believing in the Son.
52:22: The fourth commandment's in that.
52:24: Jesus Christ is our rest.
52:26: So ultimately, Jesus is our rest.
52:30: Yeah, so like I said, I try to find commonality rather than things that would divide us.
52:38: And there's a lot that, and again, I respect, like I said, Richard Barsalas and the Renehans and those guys.
52:43: I love those guys.
52:44: I think that they do a lot of good work.
52:45: Just areas of small disagreement, you know? Yeah.
52:49: All right, so getting back to the issue of baptism, let's say a person came to you and said, I don't know how to treat my kids because, and this is an argument I've heard, so I really want to get your thought on this.
53:03: They say, I don't know how to treat my kids because my Presbyterian friends tell me I can't teach my kids to sing Jesus loves you because, or Jesus loves me because they're not Christians and they're not covenant members.
53:16: Therefore, we don't know if Jesus truly, you know, can they really sing Jesus loves me because they're not, we're not treating them like Christians.
53:24: We're treating them like pagans.
53:26: And so have you heard that argument? Am I coming out of left field with that? Yeah, I mean, but it's the same thing because the Pato Baptists, their children are not Christians.
53:38: And no matter how- But they would say they are.
53:40: They would say they're Christians by birth.
53:42: So if they're Christians, then they would have the spirit of Christ.
53:46: Yeah.
53:47: And so, and I just read that verse, Romans 8, 9, unless you have the spirit of Christ, you do not belong to Christ.
53:55: Their children do not belong to Christ because they don't have the spirit.
53:59: Spirit comes by being born again, hearing and faith, being able to believe, being able to know the gospel.
54:09: And so if they don't know the gospel, they don't have the spirit of Christ.
54:12: So they're not in Christ.
54:14: They're not Christians.
54:16: There is no in the covenant and not being a Christian.
54:20: If you're in the covenant, then you're a Christian.
54:25: Everyone in the covenant should receive the covenant sign.
54:28: Amen.
54:29: Baptism.
54:30: Amen.
54:31: But they're not in the covenant.
54:32: I don't, it doesn't matter what they say.
54:34: They're not in the covenant.
54:36: I can treat my dog like a cat.
54:38: It's not a cat.
54:40: Yeah.
54:41: Right? I mean, I can buy a litter box for my dogs and they're not going to use it.
54:47: I mean, it's just not how it rose.
54:50: I mean, their kids are just as much loss as anyone's kids who was born dead in their trespasses and sins.
55:00: They need the gospel.
55:02: They don't need to be told that they're in the covenant because then there's, you know, why if I'm in the covenant, why repent? Why change my behavior? And it just doesn't add up to me.
55:18: The scripture says, if you do not have the spirit of Christ, you do not belong to Christ.
55:23: So their kids do not belong to Christ.
55:26: Well, from a Baptist perspective then, and this is, I love to hear different Baptist pastors and how you do this, because this next question, I think is a, is not, we don't all answer this the same, but I think we all have the same heart.
55:42: I just don't think we all have the same practice.
55:45: And that is this.
55:46: Okay.
55:46: How do you then determine when a person is fit for baptism? I know the answer is, well, he has to be a believer, but what is the, as a Baptist pastor, you have children in your church, you're going to have more children as your church grows.
56:07: You know, you're going to have little Johnny, seven years old is going to, eventually you're going to have a parent come up and say, little Johnny believes in Jesus.
56:15: What are the criterion for you to say, okay, I, I, I am confident to give this child the covenant sign.
56:25: Well, I would say, who is God? Who is Jesus? And what is the gospel? And do you believe it? If the child can tell me who God is, who Jesus is, and can articulate to me the gospel and tell me that they're, they're only hope in life is what Jesus Christ has done for them.
56:51: Well, that's all I ask as a Baptist, we perfect we baptize people on the profession of their faith.
56:57: Yeah.
56:58: But if, but I don't care who you, how old you are, you know, if you tell me you're a Christian and you don't know, you can't tell me who God is.
57:06: I don't care if you're 42, my age, you can't tell me who God is, who Jesus is and the gospel and affirm to me that you trust Jesus, that the life that he lived, he lived as a substitute for you and that the death that he died, he died as a substitute for you.
57:23: And that the only merit that you have been able to stand before God is through his righteousness.
57:29: Then I'm not going to baptize you.
57:32: Amen.
57:33: You can tell me you've asked Jesus into your heart a hundred times.
57:36: That doesn't matter.
57:37: Do you believe, are you trusting in the finished work of Christ every day of your life? Cause if you're not, you're not a Christian and there's no sense in, in baptizing.
57:51: You can go home, take a bath.
57:54: Amen.
57:55: Amen.
57:56: Yeah.
57:56: One of the things I often hear is I'll hear people say from the other side, they'll say, well, you guys baptize unbelievers too.
58:05: But the answer I say is we never do it intentionally.
58:09: Correct.
58:10: Like in the Westminster, it's very clear.
58:14: Like you asked a question earlier about, you know, the two denominations, if you will, coming together in one church.
58:22: And the Westminster is very clear that if you do not baptize your children, you're sinning.
58:28: Yeah.
58:28: Right.
58:29: I mean, it says that, well, I believe the same for them.
58:34: I believe by baptizing your child, you're sinning.
58:37: And I can point to the Decalogue, the transcendent law.
58:41: Do not steal.
58:45: If your child becomes a professed and believer, you have stolen their baptism.
58:50: They're not going to obey the gospel and being baptized because of some weird ritual that he performed on them and they can't remember.
59:01: You've stolen their baptism and you will parent answer before God for it.
59:08: Yeah, absolutely.
59:10: Absolutely.
59:11: And I've, I've heard, I've, I've, I've, I've heard the, the argument from the other side.
59:16: Well, you're, you're robbing your children of the covenant sign and the, and what you just said is the, is the truth is no, you're robbing them of receiving the covenant sign when they become believers.
59:29: Yeah.
59:29: I mean, it's a command, be baptized.
59:32: It's, it's the indicative, be baptized.
59:36: Yeah, absolutely.
59:38: Absolutely.
59:40: Well, brother, those are the, those are some very important things to think about.
59:43: I think you gave our listeners a lot to chew on and especially folks who may be, may be dealing with the issue.
59:48: And I really, I want to point, as we begin to draw to a close point back to that Romans eight passage that you pointed to, if they don't have the spirit of Christ, they don't belong to him.
59:58: How can you be a covenant member? How can you be somebody who says I belong to the church or belong to Christ if you don't have the spirit of God? And I don't know anybody who would argue that a child has the spirit of God without being born again.
01:00:13: So that's a great argument.
01:00:15: I think that's a good point and a, and one that I hope people will listen to and take to heart because that's a serious issue.
01:00:22: You can't be, you cannot be in both.
01:00:26: I mean, so you cannot be in Adam and in Christ.
01:00:32: You cannot be covered in the man of dust while also being covered in the man of righteousness, the man of heaven.
01:00:39: Amen.
01:00:40: You cannot be in Adam and be positionally righteous before God.
01:00:46: Like the two don't connect.
01:00:49: All right.
01:00:49: You cannot have two federal heads.
01:00:53: It's only when you're either in Adam or you're in Christ.
01:00:59: Those that are in Adam do not have the spirit of God.
01:01:01: They're in the flesh.
01:01:02: Those that are in Christ have the spirit of God, the spirit of God, the spirit of Christ.
01:01:07: Those that are in the new covenant have been born again.
01:01:12: They are able to see it with their eyes.
01:01:16: They go from, you know, you know, someone's not believing.
01:01:19: They hear the gospel preached.
01:01:21: Like I'm just, you know, for me, I was a non-believer.
01:01:25: I heard the gospel and all of a sudden the scales were removed from my eyes.
01:01:29: I could see it.
01:01:31: I could never see it before.
01:01:33: And then there was a moment where I was able to see it and I was able to enter it.
01:01:38: God gave me faith to believe he put his spirit in me.
01:01:44: I was in Christ.
01:01:46: And from that moment, what, what, what needed to happen? I needed to receive the sign baptism.
01:01:53: Old covenant.
01:01:54: You had to be born into the covenant.
01:01:57: Just like Nicodemus was born into the earthly kingdom people, the old covenant.
01:02:03: Now that Christ is here, you have to be born again.
01:02:09: And then you receive the sign, which is baptism.
01:02:14: Absolutely.
01:02:15: Absolutely.
01:02:15: And I give to that a hearty.
01:02:18: Amen.
01:02:19: Brother Jeff, I want to thank you for being with me on the program today.
01:02:22: It has been a blessing and I want to thank you for having me.
01:02:26: Yep, absolutely.
01:02:27: And I want to again, remind everyone, if they are interested in having their Bibles rebound, they can get ahold of you at post 10 and Brooks Lux Bible rebinding.
01:02:36: And they look as good as what you see on the screen there.
01:02:38: Beautiful rebound Bibles and hands handmade, hand-stitched and crafted in these United States.
01:02:46: So what a wonderful thing that is.
01:02:49: So brother, again, I hope to have you again on the program.
01:02:52: Maybe we can have another topic.
01:02:53: I've enjoyed looking at the scriptures with you, hearing your wisdom and having you share it with our listeners.
01:02:58: So thank you again for being on the program today.
01:03:01: Yeah, man, I appreciate you having me.
01:03:03: And again, your listeners know how to reach out to me.
01:03:07: If you have any questions, reach out to me.
01:03:10: Absolutely.
01:03:11: One last thing.
01:03:11: If they're near your church, I'd like for them to know where is your, where are you located? Your church, Tallahoma, Tennessee, Tallahoma, Tennessee.
01:03:19: All right.
01:03:19: If anybody's near there, they, and looking for a good solid reformed Baptist church, go to covenant reformed Baptist church, check them out in Tallahoma, Tennessee.
01:03:29: All right, brother.
01:03:29: Thank you so much.
01:03:30: Thank you.
01:03:32: And listener, I want to, again, thank you for being with us today and being a part of the program.
01:03:36: I want to give you a few thoughts as we close.
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01:04:09: My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.
01:04:13: May God bless you.