Newest Video: Amazing Christian & Mormon dialogue (Must hear!)

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Okay. Which church do you belong to? We're just, we're Christian. Christian? Jehovah's Witnesses or what?

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No, Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christian. We're a Christian church. We're a church in Tebbe called Apologia. Okay. Who edits this?

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Because, like, the context in some of these references isn't correct. What do you think is not correct? Well, just like anything...

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Let me get out of the way of this thing here. Go ahead. Well, you just, like, for example, on this one you say, Salvation is not by grace through faith blown, but by grace after all we can do.

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And that's referencing to a book, to a verse in Nephi. Uh -huh. 2nd Nephi 25, 23.

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Yeah, yeah. So, and it's by faith. Okay. Um...

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We believe that everyone is saved through grace thanks to God and Jesus Christ because of what he did.

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But in reference to, like, eternal life and living with God, we believe that there's certain things you have to do.

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That's not just something that you get. We will all be resurrected, and that's what it's in reference to. Well, Joseph there in that specific passage is about being saved.

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He says, by grace are you saved after all you can do. Yeah. That's the context. By grace are you saved after all you can do.

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I know you're bringing a lot of other stuff, but that references specifically by grace... We're saved by grace after all we can do.

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So, in other words, after all you can do, and then the grace. So, there's a major contradiction there between what the

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Bible says about salvation and what Joseph Smith taught about salvation. So, the Bible doesn't teach that you should do things?

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No, no, no, that's not... How is that a contradiction? No, that's not true. The Bible would teach that we're saved through faith in Christ alone, apart from works of law.

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That's what Romans 3 .28 says all throughout the Bible. That contradicts

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Mormon's theology, Mormonism's theology first and foremost. But I would say that what's clear in Scripture is that...

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Our theology is that everyone will be saved, period. What about the sons of perdition? Sons of perdition?

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What about outer darkness? Sons of perdition will not...

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Okay, so not everyone's saved then. But who... We don't believe that there's not going to be very many people that are sons of perdition.

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Right, but you also believe when you talk about being saved, you mean that everyone will be raised in a general resurrection the last day, right?

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But you also believe that there are different levels of heaven based on your merit, your works, and your ultimate goal as someone that's a member of the

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Latter -day Saints Church is to become a god of your own planet one day, exaltation. Right?

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My goal is to, like, make it to heaven. To become a god, though, right? That's not something I've ever actually thought about.

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Would you say that... Would you agree with Joseph? That's not something we talk about. That's not my goal in life. It has nothing to do with it.

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What about Joseph when he says that you've got to learn to become gods yourselves the same way all gods have done before you?

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Okay. So you do believe that then? Yeah. So you are working towards that then?

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I'm working towards perfection, yeah. To becoming a god. Okay. Right? Okay. Okay, so you do...

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You are agreeing now? I've... Okay, I always... I never said it wasn't our doctrine, but that's not like...

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But you do... I think it's, like, un... It's not right to say, like, oh... Because you're throwing this term god out like it's a negative thing, like, that we...

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It's not negative that we want to become better. Well, you don't just want to become... I feel you, though.

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Yeah. I understand your heart, and I understand the humility you're trying to show right now. But what I'm saying is this.

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Is that... You've been to seminary. Yeah, I did. Okay, so... As man is, God once was.

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As God is, man may become. Yep. Right? Yep. You believe that, right? Yeah. Are you a temple

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Mormon? Are you working towards that? Yeah, I've been to the temple. Okay, so what are you doing in the temple ceremonies? What are you working towards?

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Towards that. Towards perfection. Towards becoming like God. To becoming a god. Okay. Like God.

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Don't you believe... Well, don't you believe that Joseph said, We've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity.

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I will refute that idea, and take away the veils that you may see. You've got to learn to become gods yourselves, the same way all gods have done before you, going from one degree to another.

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Okay. You believe that, right? Yeah. Now, my question to you would be this, though, and I'm... Different discourse. Well, what I mean by that is...

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By bringing it up to you, it's not a matter of saying, Ha! In your face. See that? Gotcha. I promise I don't mean that.

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What I mean to show you there is the complete contradiction that Joseph brings in to who

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God is and who you are, and what is the possibility about salvation, because God said, long before Joseph came along,

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God says in Isaiah 43 .10, Before me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Now, you as a Mormon, and you can stop me if I'm wrong, you as a Mormon believe that God was once a man who became a god one day, so he had gods before him.

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And you believe that you are working towards becoming a god one day yourself. Yes. So God already said there were none before him, and you won't become one after him.

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Okay. So that's why we're here. We're not here to rob you of faith. We're not here to rob you of God.

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We're here to show you that Joseph taught a false god. Um, I believe that verse is in like reference to like gods.

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Sorry, I don't want you to get poked there. Sorry. Gods like, he was talking about like people who were worshipping different gods here on this earth.

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People were like making gods. False gods. Yeah, yeah. Right. And that's probably what he was reference to because that was in Timothy, right?

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That's Isaiah. Isaiah? Yeah. Okay. So Isaiah was talking to those people.

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God was talking to them. Okay. Right. Through Isaiah. Right. Just like God was talking to us through Joseph Smith. Well, that would beg the question whether or not

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God was talking to Joseph Smith because here's what I want to say. Um, God, by the way, said there was no god formed before him, and neither shall there be any god formed after him, essentially.

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So a god before, a god after, is the context. They're not just a discussion of false gods not existing.

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False gods exist everywhere. And so it's not just about false gods. You can say it's just about false gods because there's false gods everywhere.

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Um, so he said there's no god formed before him. But here's the important point I would say. I would say is that if God spoke in the past in the scriptures, which

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I know you believe in the Bible, um, and then Joseph comes along and says, well, God's talking through me now, too.

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Well, if God already revealed himself to us in these scriptures, and then Joseph comes along later and says, well,

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God's talking through me now, but the God, the God's voice speaking through him is contradicting what God already said.

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So in other words, you've got two different revelations. One revelation from God that says this. Joseph says, oh, that same God sent me.

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But somehow, that same God's voice doesn't sound the same as it used to. Because... You can read, like, anywhere in the

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Old Testament, and things change or go into the New Testament, and the voice of God changes.

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What changes, do you think? Um, like, the law of Moses.

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That's an example. What about it? Well, when Jesus Christ came, didn't he say that he had fulfilled the law?

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Yeah. So that's, like, changing. Fulfilling is not changing. He fulfilled it.

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Not a change. As a matter of fact, in Matthew 5, in the Sermon on the Mount, he says this. Me namasete, in the Greek, means, do not even begin to think that I've come to abolish the law.

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I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. So he says, don't even, me namasete, in the Greek, means this.

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Don't even let it into your mind. Don't even think that I came to destroy the law. I came to fulfill it.

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So he actually would answer you by saying, I didn't come to destroy it, I came to fulfill it. So there's no contradiction there.

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Okay, but the thing is, is it's still changed. What's changed? The law, like the law.

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What's, what law's changed? We don't do sacrifice. That's fulfilled in Christ. That pointed to the greater reality of Jesus.

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He fulfilled that. He fulfilled that. He fulfilled that. Right. And so that's fulfilled, right?

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So the reason we don't do animal sacrifices is because those animal sacrifices pointed to the ultimate sacrifice which

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Jesus completed. So watch this. Sacrifice is still relevant. It's completely relevant.

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It's just completed. Right? But all of the Old Testament law by way of the moral law and everything else,

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Paul would argue very clearly in Romans that Christians who are now saved are in Christ and now no longer dead spiritually but alive.

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This goes back to your original question. Christians do good deeds. Why? Because they're now alive from the dead.

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And now they actually do fulfill the law because they're in the spirit and not in the flesh. They're no longer dead spiritually but alive.

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So Christians that are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ, alone, they will do good works as a result of new life.

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But those good works have nothing to do with that salvation. You see, here's the difference. The Bible teaches that you need to be saved and you need to have a perfect righteousness.

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Now that righteousness will never be found in you because there's none righteous, not even one. None who does good, none who seeks for God. All of our righteousness is in those filthy rags.

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So the Bible teaches is that you need to have a perfect righteousness but it will never be found in you. And if you try to find that righteousness in yourself, you'll be condemned like the

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Pharisee was in Luke 18. He thought that in himself he was righteous and he was trusting in God's grace because he said,

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God, I thank you. And then he starts bragging on his works and his morality. And the tax collector who was a wicked sinner, just like the

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Pharisee, he recognized that all he could do was come to God for mercy. And it was of the two of them, the tax collector that only came to God for mercy and not based on his own righteousness that went home declared righteous.

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And the Pharisee went to hell. And Paul says in Philippians 3, this is important because this will show the distinction between when

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I'm saying to you right now, I hope you hear, is that Paul says in Philippians 3, he brags on his resume, he says,

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I'm a Pharisee as to the law. So that's pretty rigorous. He says, I'm a Hebrew of Hebrews of the tribe of Benjamin, circumcised the eighth day as to zeal, a persecutor of the church.

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He says, I count all these things as loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Jesus Christ my Lord. And this is what he says.

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He says, and I want to be found in him not having a righteousness of my own derived from the law but that which is from God through faith in Jesus Christ.

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Christians are saved now through faith in Jesus right now declared righteous not because I am but because I'm in Christ and I have his righteousness as a gift.

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What you're working towards and this church teaches you is that through your own righteousness, obedience to the laws and principles of the gospel, that you will be saved and go through exaltation to become a

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God one day and that's based on your own righteousness. It's based on faith in Christ and righteousness is an act like it's how

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I show my faith. So what is the difference between your faith in Christ and my faith in Christ?

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And we both have faith in Christ. Don't take this as me trying to throw a nasty jab at you.

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Here's the deal. I'm going to say this to you with love and compassion. I'm not better than you but the difference is this.

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Is that Joseph taught a false Jesus, a false Christ. So when I say

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I have faith in Christ and I'm trusting in him and him alone, I'm trusting in the objective Jesus of history.

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What did he teach of false Jesus? I don't understand. Do you believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers? Yes. Okay.

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So Jesus was a created being by the Father in the pre -existence. He's brothers.

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The only begotten Son of God. Right. And you believe that means he was created. Yeah. And so the difference is is that Jesus in the

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Bible is the eternal God. He never came into existence. He's always existed. In Colossians 1, 16 says this.

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Just hear me out here. This verse says this. There's one verse of many I could show you. For by him, Jesus, were all things created in the heavens and on the earth, whether visible or invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created by Jesus.

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That includes Satan. So in the Bible, you have Jesus who's the eternal God, creator of Satan, creator of all things.

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Does it say Jesus in that verse? Or does it say Lord or God? Colossians 1 talks about in him we have redemption through his blood,

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Jesus. It says he's the firstborn of all creation and by him all things were created. Now, firstborn, by the way, in that context, very

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Jewish, very biblical terminology, firstborn was the one that had the preeminence and was the heir. Had nothing to do with creation and time.

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And when you say the only begotten, monogenes is the word there and it means the unique and one of a kind.

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It doesn't mean created. Okay, so the Jesus that Mormonism teaches you is

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Lucifer's brother, one God among many gods. You can become one like him and the

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Jesus of Scripture is the eternal God, none before, none after. He's the creator of all things including Satan and why that should be a burden for the both of us is that Paul says in 2

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Corinthians 11 that there are other Jesuses, other gospels and other spirits that cannot save you. That was in the first century.

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So it shouldn't surprise you and I that 2 ,000 years later a man named Joseph Smith comes and gives a different version of Jesus and a different gospel.

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And so when I say I have faith in Christ and you say I have faith in Christ too, we're using the same terminology but you and I mean completely different things.

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Yes. Let's take the burden off your shoulders. Completely different things, like I don't agree that they're completely different.

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I actually don't even only believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. I believe that we're brothers.

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I know. Everyone's brothers. So this term you're saying That's a different Jesus. You're saying you're taking you think that Jesus is like we're diminishing who

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Jesus is by calling him our brother but we're not like No, no, no. I'm saying his nature and who he is.

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So the fact that we believe Jesus and God are different people? Well, different gods.

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There's a difference between person and God. You believe they're different gods. Yeah. Right. And the

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Bible teaches there's only one God. Yeah. None before and none after. The first and the last. You don't believe that though.

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Yes, I do. You believe that God was the first and the last? He was the one God of this world.

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Of this earth. But he's not the only God. I have no idea. Well, Joseph said no. He said there's a council of gods.

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Have you read The Pearl of Great Price? Yeah, I have. Okay, so you know that the gods created the heavens and the earth. When they're referring to gods, it's like Jesus.

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Right, so you don't believe... So then you don't believe... You can correct me if I'm wrong here, but so then you don't believe that there's one

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God of this earth. You mean there's three gods of this earth. Okay, if you're referring to...

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Okay, when you say there's three gods, you're trying to get me to say that I believe there's multiple gods, but they're one in purpose.

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In purpose. If I say Jesus and God both created the earth, it's not like false doctrine by saying gods created this earth.

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Right, so this is exactly the point, though, is that you believe in more than one God. Yes. Right, and the

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Bible teaches that there's only one God. The hero is one, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. We're mixing up terminology.

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No, it's more than a mixing of terminology. So I call Jesus God? A God. A God?

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He's a God, too. Okay. And God, Heavenly Father. A God. A God.

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That's more than one God. So I call those multiple gods. Right. And you think they're the same person. Same... No, no, there's only one

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God. Same being. Three persons. One being. One being. One nature.

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One substance. One God. Three distinct persons. Right. Then it's exactly... No, no, no. You believe in three beings of God of this earth and many multiple...

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There's a myriad of other gods out there besides the gods of this earth. Well, not possibly.

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You know that I can give you multiple quotes from Mormon prophets and apostles that teach that they're... It's not a matter of question.

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Joseph taught very clearly. He says, Many men say there's only one God. I say that's a strange God anyhow.

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Three in one. One in three. All would be crammed into one organization. He says this. He says, When I preach on the subject of the deity, it has always been on the plurality of gods.

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So Joseph, very confidently, not like you right now, he very confidently said he believed in the plurality of gods.

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I know you're hesitating now but he said he confidently taught it and he said in the beginning the head of the gods came together to create the world.

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Okay. And to concoct and prepare a plan to create the world and people it. So he was very, very liberal about saying there are many gods.

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There's a plurality of gods. You can become one one day. You believe that Jesus is a God and he's a God so I don't see what the problem is in believing that there's another

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God. Oh, there's a big problem when God says this. He says, Is there a God besides me? Indeed there is no other

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God. I know not one. What about Jesus then? Okay, hold on now. He just called him God. Right. There's only one

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God and there are three persons in the Bible, Father, Son, Holy Spirit called

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God. Yeah. The three persons are distinct and they are the same nature, the same substance.

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Hebrews chapters 1, chapter 1 teaches that. Substance. Substance. So in other words, when we talk about God we're talking about what?

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And there's one God, one what? One being of God. Mm -hmm. But there are clearly in the

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Bible three persons called God and the three persons are eternal and co -equal.

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Jesus, I'll give you an example of a verse. This would be more helpful if we could give a verse. Yeah. Jesus in John chapter 1, verse 1, you probably know this verse.

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It's popular. It's easy. That's why. My kids, one of the first ones to memorize. It says, In the beginning was the Word and the

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Word was with God and the Word was God. Was the Word was God. This is really important. It says,

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In the beginning was the Word. It says literally, it says, In the beginning the Word was already there.

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In the beginning, as far back as you want to go, forever, He already existed. And it says, And the

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Word was with God. So we're talking about Jesus here. Jesus. He always existed, which denies Mormon theology.

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And then it says, And He was with God. Prostone Theon. So how are they one substance? Well, this is what I'm getting to. And it says,

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And He was with God. The Word was with God. The Word is in the Greek Prostone Theon. And it means toward God or face to face with God.

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So what it's teaching there is sort of like right now. Yeah. You and I are being friends and we're looking at each other face to face.

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There's kind of an intimacy there, face to face, toward one another, a relationship. Yeah. And so what that says there is in the beginning,

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Jesus already was there. And He was with the Father from all eternity. And He was God.

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And He says this, Nothing came into being that's come into being without Him creating it. Which denies, again,

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Mormon theology. Mormonism doesn't teach that Jesus was always with the Father from all eternity.

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It teaches that He was created by the Father as a child in the pre -existence. And it doesn't teach that Jesus created everything in existence.

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The Bible doesn't or we don't? Mormonism doesn't. That Jesus didn't create everything? He's Lucifer's brother, you agree?

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Oh. Like you're talking about pre -existence? He didn't create... What do you mean? Which is period. I'll give you an example.

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I can say Jesus created everything in existence and nothing came into being except through Him. That's what John says.

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And Colossians 1 .16 says that. Well, I'm glad you would... Did you say you would agree? Yeah. I'm glad you would say you would agree.

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The only problem is that it creates a conflict because Joseph says that Jesus... Well, Mormonism teaches that Jesus...

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Was created. Was created by the Father and is Lucifer's brother. Yeah. That's a different God. You see, if I...

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Watch this. If Jesus says, I am the way and the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me.

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And I know you'd agree with me on that. Yeah. I know you would. We'd agree with that. The only problem is is that He says

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He's the only way. And yet, the Bible teaches in 2 Corinthians 11 .4 that there are other

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Jesuses that are false. So if there's only one Christ that's one way to salvation and you're believing in a false one, you have a

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God that can't save. I'll give you an example. I've got to take the burden off you for a second here, okay?

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Because this will help us to get context. Say this. Say I come up to you right now and I'm a

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Jehovah's Witness because you brought it up. Okay? I'm not. I'm not. I've seen similar stuff. I'm not by the way.

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I'm not by the way. They wouldn't agree with any of that and I taught them there. Say I'm a

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Jehovah's Witness and I come to you and I say, I say, hey, I knock on your door at 7 in the morning and I say, hey, how you doing?

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We're with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and they say, we believe in Jesus Christ and you say, oh, I believe in Jesus Christ.

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They go, awesome. So you believe in Michael the Archangel and you say, say what? And they go, you believe in Michael the

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Archangel, the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God. You'd say, excuse me? Jesus is

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Michael the Archangel, the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God. You would say, that's not my Jesus and they'd go, oh, that's the true

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Jesus. Your Jesus is false. And you see the point? They use your terminology but they believe in a different Jesus.

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Now, in the same way, the Bible presents to you who God is. Joseph disagreed.

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He says, we've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. That's what the Bible teaches. He says,

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I will refute that idea and take away the veils that you may see. And so my concern for you is very clearly this.

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It's not a jab to you. It's not to try to hurt you. I believe in the wrong Jesus. Yes. And you have a gospel that it doesn't save.

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Listen, you and I are sinners before our holy God. And the only way to be reconciled to Him is to have a perfect righteousness and be free from condemnation.

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And that was only provided in Christ, the eternal God who came down, became man, took on flesh and lived a sinless life that we failed to die a death you and I deserve and conquered that death.

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And He calls you to come to Him to turn from sin to put your trust and faith in Him, not in your self -righteousness, not in holding on to your sin, but abandoning darkness, coming to God to be saved, to trust in Christ for forgiveness and salvation, to be reconciled to God today, now, through faith.

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Now, Mormonism doesn't teach that message. Yes, it does. So you believe... That exact message. So you believe that Jesus is the eternal

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God? Yeah. And you're... How? Can you help me with that? How is the eternal

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God if He became God? How is the eternal God if He's Lucifer's brother? He's my eternal

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God. He's not eternal God. He said, Joseph disagrees with you. He says, we've imagined and supposed that God was

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God from all eternity. I'll refute that idea. So at this point, you're in opposition... You're in opposition to your own prophet.

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No, no, no. I'm not in opposition. Joseph says He wasn't always God. You said that He is. Are we talking about Jesus or God?

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God in general. Let's say even God, the Father, Joseph's talking about. Okay. He said even He's not eternal, but you're saying

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Jesus is eternal. He was teaching the Father isn't even eternally God. That's what he said.

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I'm having a hard time following what you're referring to. Joseph said... I know. ...that God was once a man.

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He's talking about the Father... ...who became a God and that we've imagined and supposed that God was

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God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, he says. So he said that even the

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Father hasn't eternally been God. You're saying that Jesus was eternally God. Joseph taught that not even the

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Father is eternally God. I think that's... You're throwing around these terms like you understand what this means, eternal and stuff.

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What does eternal mean? Forever. Okay. He says He hasn't been God forever. I'll move over here so you don't get stabbed anymore with that plant.

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He says He hasn't been God forever. Yeah. Okay. Listen. I applaud and am happy that you're saying that Jesus is eternally

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God. What I'm trying to demonstrate to you is that that's not the message of this church's prophets.

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Okay. I think that perhaps you've read a lot of your Bible and you've seen that.

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Okay? And I applaud that. What I'm telling you is that that's not the message of the prophets and apostles of this church.

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Your God is... ...eternal, right? That God has eternally been

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God. Joseph says that He has not. I'll refute that idea, he says. As far as I'm concerned, since I was ever created, the eternity of me in existence,

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He has always been my God. Well, He's always been your God, but He said, Joseph... From the very beginning because He created me.

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...of you, but you're not eternal. Yeah. You're not eternal and that doesn't speak to God's eternal nature. Joseph says we've imagined...

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So we're going to... We had a beginning. We did. And will we have an end? A physical death?

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Yeah. A physical death. But not life and... If you're in Christ, you will go on forever. Forever.

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So I am eternal then. Well, I would say this. Well... Human beings, yes, have an immortal soul in a sense that you will go on forever somewhere.

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Okay. But you will experience... Take this... I'm saying this without arrogance to you, but I'm just telling you what

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Scripture says. If you have worshiped and followed a false God your whole life and you're not redeemed, you will spend eternity apart from God, separated from Him, because you will have to answer for your own sin before God.

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So... I will spend eternity apart from God because I believe in Jesus Christ.

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Because of your... You turn on all these things. No, but you don't, though. Because you told me you believe Jesus is Lucifer's brother. You don't have

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Christ. Let me ask you a question.

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Because he's Lucifer's brother doesn't mean... Well, that's a different Jesus. Watch this. If I started worshiping...

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This is Ben, by the way. If I started worshiping Ben right now and I fell down before him and I called him Jesus Christ, my

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Savior of my sins, the one who died... This isn't a certain example. No, it's really not. It's really not.

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And I start worshiping him, I think you see it's clear. You would say, Jeff, that's not Jesus. He can't save you.

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Now, there's no difference between a man in the 19th century creating a different version of Jesus calling people to worship it and this scenario right here.

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It's a Jesus that has no ability to save. It's a false God. Okay. And if you believe, if you're still trying to be reconciled to God through your faith and your good works, the

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Bible would say this, if righteousness comes to the law, then Christ died needlessly. If you could be righteous before God through your obedience to law, then

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Jesus didn't need to die. And the Bible says in Galatians 5, this is a hard cutting verse for me too.

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It says, Christ has become of no effect to you, whosoever of you attempts to be justified by law, you've fallen from grace.

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He said that to people who were trusting in Jesus and also their obedience to law.

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He says that if that's the route you're taking, you're under the curse of the law to fulfill all of it. And what

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I'm saying to you is this, with love for you, with respect for you as a human being, that this church's

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Christ is a false one and the gospel is a gospel that does not save. And there is hope and life and peace in the true and living

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Christ. And what I'm going to say to you is this is a significant thing. You told me a moment, you told me a little bit ago, you said

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Joseph spoke from God. Yeah. Why do you believe that? Why do

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I believe that Joseph? Yeah. A lot of reasons.

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I'll listen. Um, one, have you read the Book of Mormon? Uh -huh. I believe it's scripture.

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I believe that Joseph Smith translated it. But why do you believe he's a prophet? Because I believe he was called of God.

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Why do you believe that? I believe that God appeared to him. Why do you believe that? Because I just feel like that's right and I've looked at,

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I've read the books and it feels right. Did you ever test him as a prophet? What? Did you ever test him as a prophet?

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Test him by like test his works? Yeah, no, I mean like, um... How do you mean? I mean, I won't make an assumption.

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Like a witness test? I don't want to make an assumption here, okay? You can't test. Well, the Bible says you can and you should. Deuteronomy 13, this is what

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I mean. By the way, this is not being given to you in any form or way of arrogance. I'm not like, oh, don't you know this? I'm not assuming that you do.

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I'm just saying... Deuteronomy 13, 1 through 4, God says that even if a prophet came and he had signs and wonders but he led you after other gods, false gods, different gods than God has already revealed himself.

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He said he's a false prophet. So God's test is this. Even if someone came and they looked like it was stellar, it was right on, looked real, it felt real, and the guy even had signs and wonders, but then

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God says, and then he leads you after other gods in other words, he contradicts what God has already revealed about himself.

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God says he's a false prophet. So Joseph comes along and says, I met

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God and he told me to join none of the churches because they're all wrong. The creeds are an abomination. The professors are corrupt.

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And I'm restoring the church. And you go, okay, what do you teach about God? And he says, oh,

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God was once a man. He wasn't God for all eternity and Jesus is Lucifer's brother and you can become a god one day. You're required there to stand on the word of God that he claims to be standing on.

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And look at it and go, Joseph, I know what you're saying, but you're contradicting the very revelation you say you're standing on.

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And God says, a man that does that is a false prophet. And so another test is

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Deuteronomy 18. It's a pretty spectacular one that I think will give you some really good confidence here, okay? Deuteronomy 18, 20 through 22,

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God says that if somebody has a false prophecy, they're a false prophet. Period. Straight up.

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You don't get zero failure. None. So what's cool about that, and this might give you some hope here, is that in the

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Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, 66 different books, about 1 ,500 years of composition, about 40 different authors, hundreds of prophecies.

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If even one of them is false, one, based on God's own test, one, the entire revelation is mythology.

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One, and that's God's test. If Jesus had a false prophecy, you are to reject him by God's test as a false prophet.

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The amazing thing is that it's spectacular. It's crazy. It'll give you goosebumps, man, how God gets it right all the time.

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But Joseph had many false prophecies. He taught that Jesus was going to come back within 56 years.

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He taught that he was going to be in the priest's office until Christ returned. He laid his hands upon Lyman White once, and Lyman White started prophesying that some in the congregation were going to live until Christ descended to slay all the wicked with his coming.

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And he taught very clearly that Jesus was going to return in his generation. Jesus didn't. And so you and I, as people, as image bearers of God, both of us, are supposed to look at God's revelation and say, no,

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I'm going to take the true and living God. I'm going to stay with Christ. Joseph, I reject what you're saying because you're teaching a false

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God and a false gospel. This is not an indictment on you because Joseph taught this. You don't need to take responsibility for this and say, well,

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I need to defend Joseph because I just have to defend Joseph. You're responsible before God. You are.

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And he doesn't come with you. Joseph doesn't stand before God with you. You stand before God and you need a perfect righteousness.

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And that's only found in Christ. That's a gift of God through faith. You can't earn that. And this church teaches you that you can and that you can become a

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God one day when God says he's the first to last, none before, none after.

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That's significant. Yes. I agree with most of the stuff you say. And I'm happy that you do.

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So I'll tell you what. My name is Jeff, by the way. And I'm Nathaniel. It's a pleasure to meet you, man.

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My information's on the back. I don't have any desire whatsoever, just so you know, my heart on this. I have no desire whatsoever to come out here and just debate and just create, to ruffle your feathers.

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My heart's desire is that you come to know the true and living God. That's good. Alright. So you can get a hold of me through our website and our ministry.

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Call me up. What's the name of this church? Well, our specific church body is just called Apologia Church. We're just historic,

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Christian, Reformed. That's where we're at. We're just Christians. And I would stand out here with you, bro, with a

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Presbyterian, a Baptist, Reformed Protestant, with a

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Reformed Anglican. All of us down the line would be standing here right now telling you exactly the same message.

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You guys don't agree amongst yourselves? Non -essential issues. We may disagree on non -essentials.

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I have in -house debates. But you know what? I'll give you an example. I'm technically, I'm technically Reformed Baptist minister.

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But all my heroes are all Presbyterians. All of them. And I serve and love with guys from all different little local bodies of believers.

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We have the same God, the same gospel. Always have for 2 ,000 years, bro. And that's what you need to hear is that, man,

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I'm not trying to point you. I'm not trying to take away

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God and trust and salvation from you. I'm saying to you, it's over here. It's in Christ.

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I understand that. That's the point. Yep. Okay? That's what I focus on. Okay. So take a look at those verses that are in there.

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Give me a call, man. I will do. Get a hold of me. Thanks for letting me listen. Bless you, man. Thanks for coming back to talk to me.