November 21, 2017 Show with Thaddeus Williams on “Elevate: Mirroring the Saving Grace of Jesus”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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So one man sharpens another Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com

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This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you a happy Tuesday Just a couple of days before Thanksgiving on November 21st 2017 and I am delighted to have back on the program

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Thaddeus Williams Thaddeus is an assistant professor of theology at Biola University in La Mirada, California He's a former teacher of literature at Saddleback College jurisprudence at Trinity Law School philosophy at LaBrie Fellowship in Switzerland and Holland and ethics for Blackstone Legal Fellowship and Federalist Society in Washington DC and author of love freedom and evil does authentic love require free will and Reflect becoming yourself by mirroring the greatest person in history.

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That's actually the book We are going to once again address and in specific or specifically the chapter on elevate mirroring the saving grace of Jesus and It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio

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Thaddeus Williams Chris it's a joy to be back with you looking forward to it And I am as well in our email address if any of our listeners would like to join us

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Is Chris Arntzen at gmail .com? chris a r n z e n at gmail .com

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Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA I just want to make a brief comment here and thanks to my friend

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Sal D 'Antona of Battery Depot calm and also of Lindbergh Baptist Church on Long Island, New York and also

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Pike Lambeth who is with the publishers of the New American Standard Bible They made a trip that I made recently possible

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To the Quaker town conference on reform theology the annual conference in Quaker down Quaker town

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Pennsylvania conducted by the Alliance of confessing evangelicals and it was just such a Joy to see again in person

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My old friend, dr Tom Nettles who I have known for quite a number of years and I've interviewed quite a number of times and it was just a blessing being there

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Manning and I am chirping xyron exhibitors booth and I look forward to my return to grace

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Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker town for Any future events that they may have but it was a true blessing

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To be there and was also a blessing upon returning home to celebrate The 60th birthday of my dear friend

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Susan Hopkins who led me to Jesus Christ back in the mid 1980s by God's sovereign grace, and it was such a joy to Celebrate her 60th with her daughter her son and their respective boyfriend and girlfriend and It was a truly a joy and also three of Susan's grandchildren were there as well but today as I said, we are discussing a chapter from Our guests book our guest

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Thaddeus Williams book reflect and this specific chapter is elevate mirroring the saving grace of Jesus Before we go to that Thaddeus if you could tell us something about what you do at Biola University in La Mirada, California Sure happy to so I am a professor of systematic theology

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I have been there To nine years now full -time for about four years so I teach the

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Class called foundations of Christian thought which is one of the required class everybody takes within their first year

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It's an introduction to worldview Introduction to how to integrate the Lordship of Jesus with every square inch of life

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So we got big sections. I have about 100 students per class times three every semester

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As an introduction to Christian worldview. I also teach our main systematic theology courses via one which covers

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Theology proper the attributes of God Christology doctrine of man and sin

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I teach a theology to class their doctrine of salvation doctrine of the

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Holy Spirit doctor of the church doctrine of last things more recently

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I started teaching an evangelism class and a Abraham Kuyper theology of Abraham Kuyper class on how to Live out the

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Lordship of Jesus over all of life. So that's my go -to classes at Biola Great, and I believe if I'm not mistaken, isn't our next interview on dr.

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Kuyper? I Think so. Yeah We got talking Kuyper and that's gonna hopefully blossom into a whole show great.

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Yeah, that's our next interview with Thaddeus Williams So make sure that you Make sure you keep your ears open for Me to announced.

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In fact, I already know it. It's Friday December 1st Friday December 1st is our next interview with Thaddeus Williams on the subject of Abraham Kuyper quite a notable figure from reformed history and Not without some controversy and some disagreement amongst reformed brethren as to his

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Positions on certain issues, but quite a fascinating individual who actually was led to the Lord After already being a pastor by an elderly woman in his church, right?

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Yeah So and so mark your calendars for Friday December 1st 4 to 6 p .m.

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Eastern Time well now let's move on to the book before we even go into the specific chapter of the book a

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Book that we have already addressed on several occasions reflect becoming yourself by mirroring the greatest person in history.

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Why don't you? Start off because our the fact that we are getting it seems new listeners every single day in the iron trip ins iron audience

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So I'm sure there will be quite a number of people who did not hear you on your previous interviews

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So why don't you give us a summary of what reflect is all about and what was the motivation behind you writing it?

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Happy to I mean one way of thinking about reflect is a 200 page exegesis on psalm 115 where the psalmist

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Makes this claim that if you worship an idol, you're going to become as dumb as your idol, you know

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If you worship rock, you're going to become as dumb as a rock and so there's this running biblical theme that stretches from Genesis to Revelation that Not only does everybody worship something or someone but we're all slowly but surely in the process of becoming like whoever or whatever we worship and so that's the premise of reflect where I'm going from there is asking the question if we really worship

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Jesus and don't just claim to if it's not just Checking boxes on a deck on a doctrinal statement, but we're actually

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Daily on our knees before the Lord Jesus. How is that going to shape us?

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How are we going to become like who we worship? And so the whole book is structured around An acrostic which is the title reflect so the

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R which we've talked about before stands for reason. How can we? Reflect the intellectual virtues of Jesus the

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E stands for emotes. How will our feelings our emotions? Resemble Christ if we're really worshiping him and it goes all the way through seven attributes of Christ and how we should

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Expect is as part of a normal Christian life to be able to look back and say, you know

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What I'm more Christ like this year than I was last year in these seven areas So the one we're focusing on today is

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The chapter elevate the E and reflect how will we be more gracious if we're worshiping?

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Jesus who is as gracious as the Bible says Amen and the specific title of our of our conversation is mirroring the saving grace of Jesus and That is an interesting title and an interesting concept because we know that There are attributes of Jesus that we are to imitate

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We are to imitate his Forgiveness his patience his

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Obedience his holiness and all these wonderful attributes that are too many to number that were and are and always will be possessed by our

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Lord Jesus Christ the perfect God man But this is a little different.

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This isn't an attribute that we're talking about it is something that Jesus Christ is

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Basically providing for his people his elect

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This is something that he is freely giving to Wicked sinners who deserve nothing but eternity in hell and yet he is

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Providing a saving grace to us if you could explain how we is finite fallible sinners can

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Imitate something like this, which is not just an attribute but we're not an attribute really at all, but it is an action

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Sure The principle I was just Articulating from Psalm 115 you become like what you worship if I don't believe

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That Jesus is gracious if I think he's kind of a tit -for -tat

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Legalistic let's keep tabs on everything and maybe you can merit divine favor

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If I worship that kind of God then in a lot of probably even subconscious ways

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I'm going to treat my wife that way. I'm gonna treat my kids that way

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I'm going to have if I have a legalistic God, I'm going to become a legalist and So I'm just flipping that around and saying if we worship a

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Jesus who is as gracious as the scriptures say That is going to shape me that's going to impact my marriage.

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That's going to impact my parenting That's going to impact the way I treat my co -workers That's the way

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I get it's going to impact how I treat people who wronged me in some way And so that's the flow if I'm worshiping a gracious Jesus and it's a very biblical flow

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You see that logic all over the book of Ephesians forgive one another as Christ has forgiven you you see it all over the text and one of the ways that I unpack that in the chapter is

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I borrow a little bit from Bill Stievsky the great Russian novelist and I talked about his chapter from Brothers Karamazov It's hailed by critics as Brothers Karamazov is

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Bill Stievsky's best novel and the best chapter in Bill Stievsky's best novel according to the critics is the

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Grand Inquisitor and If I could just kind of get the 60 -second version of what Bill Stievsky is up to here

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I think it's a good answer to your question so that the premise of the

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Grand Inquisitor is you have The Karamazov brothers You have

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Ivan Karamazov is kind of the the belligerent atheists older brother

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You have Alyosha Alyosha Karamazov loves Jesus. He is the younger brother who's very devout in his faith now

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Ivan the atheist is trying to show that Alyosha's love for Jesus is absurd and so he tells this story that's intended to mock the grace of Jesus and In the story entitled the

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Grand Inquisitor you have Jesus returning to Seville Spain Sometime around the 15th 16th century

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He gets arrested by an inquisitor of the Catholic Church and put on trial for the death sentence and The entire chapter about 20 pages of the 22 pages is the

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Inquisitor just laying in To Jesus the prisoner in the chapter and one of the final scenes

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Jesus stands up and walks over to the Inquisitor who has just been scathing just Just venomous

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Charges against Jesus for 20 pages and Jesus walks over and his reply is to kiss the

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Inquisitor on The forehead so here's somebody being militant Aggressive and hateful like we all are in our natural fallen state and Jesus walks over and kisses the very

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Inquisitor who hates him and to me Dostoevsky here has captured a very Powerful image of the gospel.

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It's not like we're neutral like Pelagius taught We're basically good people and then

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Jesus decides he'd like us on his team No, we're dead in sin we're hateful we're enmity with God we have we're self -declared rebels

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We're at war with God's redemptive plan and it's in that state of deadness and sin it's in that state of rebellion that God kisses us through Christ and brings redemption and So as Dostoevsky tells that story

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Remember again, this is Ivan trying to mock his little brother's faith. Look how weak look how powerless your

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Jesus is Well when Ivan finishes the story What does Alyosha do?

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he walks across the room and he kisses his brother Ivan right on the forehead and it's just it's this beautiful moment of Alyosha knows he's been saved by grace

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He was a jerk. He was an aggressor against the God of the universe and God embraced him with grace

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And so now he's gonna extend that same grace to his brother and his brother Ivan just doesn't even know what to do with that Grace has just scrambled up his whole worldview

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And so that's really what I'm getting at when it comes to mirroring the graciousness of Jesus Which again is a clear biblical call that we've received this unmerited favor.

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We don't we want to extend that unmerited favor to others Now would you agree?

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I have heard some reformed Brethren who have

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Explained grace this way and I have echoed their comments I was wondering how you felt about this or should

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I say how you believe about this? We don't care about how you feel

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But But Unmerited favor is the common definition of grace and it is an accurate

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Definition, but even though it's accurate in a technical sense Isn't the grace that we read about in the scriptures that Jesus Christ bestows upon his elect more

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Accurately described as ill merited favor and I was at a I Was at a halfway house preaching at the request of the church where I'm a member

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Grace Baptist Church of Carlyle they Occasionally asked me to preach a sermon for the men in this halfway house

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Bethesda mission in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and I was giving a basically a

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Contrasting view between Undeserved or unmerited favor and ill merited favor

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And I said that if I walked up to one of you in the audience and just handed you a hundred dollar bill

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And you did absolutely nothing to deserve that That would be unmerited favor but if you had raped and murdered everyone in my family and Then while trying to burn my house down you are somehow caught in the fire and the house is collapsing down on you and I rushed into those burning flames put you on my back carried you out of those flames to safety and Then when it was later discovered that you needed a vital organ

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That was severely damaged in this episode I donated one of my vital organs to you that would be more of descriptive and of ill -merited favor and that much more of course every

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Every time we try to use a picture of some biblical truth We fail miserably short, but that would be a closer picture to what

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Jesus Christ is done. Am I right? I think you're spot -on. I think there's there's kind of a almost

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Pelagian way of Misconstruing grace where we think of ourselves is more or less neutral and then

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God gives us this amazing gift you know, we didn't do anything to earn it, but here it comes here's salvation and You know, we might call that unmerited favor, but I'm with you

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I think you're spot -on that it's not just we're in a state of neutrality According to Scripture according to Paul's argument in Romans that we are hostile

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We are Rebellious the way I picture it in my mind is we aren't just dead in sin with there we have

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The way I often describe it to my students is we have Spiritual middle fingers extended in the face of the

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Creator. It's a hostility. It's a we positively merit eternal

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Torment from an infinitely just being because we are openly hostile to the

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Creator and to receive Salvation so rich of a salvation when we're in such a state of hostility

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Yeah, that's not unmerited favor. That's ill merited favor. I think that's a very helpful distinction and in an important one because in the chapter we're talking about I Lay out some statistics that show

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That this Pelagian notion that we're all basically neutral. We're not evil to the core

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We're somewhere in between and then God gives us this gift That isn't just the doctrine that Pelagius, you know some

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British monk taught 1600 years ago that has gone mainstream in the culture that has gone mainstream in the church

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You know, that's why I think one of R .C. Sproul's best articles in his entire Career is a little piece.

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He did for modern Reformation Probably nearly 20 years ago now called the Pelagian captivity of the church

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You know, he was kind of deliberately giving a nod to Martin Luther's Babylonian captivity of the church

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But what Sproul argues is that we all think we're basically neutral or good And if you think that the gospel is meaningless

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You can say amazing grace, but you can't mean it on a deep and meaningful level

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Unless you come to terms with our radical depravity So that's in the chapter.

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I Lay out some statistics where social sciences is shown just how widespread our

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Pelagian captivity is and so I talked about how over a hundred thousand

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University students were polled on the question. Do you think you're a good nice person?

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over a hundred thousand and In fact, I have the statistics in front of me. It was eight hundred and twenty nine thousand high school students

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So before we even get to university eight hundred and twenty nine thousand high school students were asked

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Are you basically a good person? And so I know you've read the chapter Chris, but let me

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Let me pose the question to you what percentage out of a hundred and eight hundred and twenty nine thousand high school students rank themselves as above average

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In terms of being a good kind nice person. I would say I would say between ninety nine and a hundred percent

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You're pretty darn close it is 100 % rank themselves above average now.

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I'm lousy at math, but the way that The question was framed above average just based on You know basic arithmetic to be above average yet to be 51 percent or above that means 414 thousand five hundred

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Actually ranked themselves as higher than they actually are One in four in that study actually ranked themselves in the very top 1 % and how nice they were

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And then I got a big kick out of the fact that they did the same survey with college faculty and 88 % of College faculty raised their performance as above average and then this just cracks me up One in four had the humility to rate themselves as quote truly exceptional

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To the planet one in four twenty five percent of college professors thought that they were quote truly exceptional

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And then there's there's all kinds of fascinating studies on this where they actually went into hospitals to interview

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Patients who were hospitalized because of their bad driving They've gotten in a car accident for being lousy drivers

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And they asked those people while still in the hospital to rate their own driving and the

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Overwhelming majority over 70 % rated themselves as excellent or above average drivers

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And there's a you know, it's in social science. It's called the self -serving bias, but it's this idea that Pelagianism this idea.

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I'm a good person. So I don't really need Unmerited favor much less do merited favor that is widespread in the culture

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That's widespread in the church And that's something that we really need to have on our radar because the extent to which we lie to ourselves

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And think we're basically good if we think we are depraved so we don't need to be saved that's the extent to which we're diminishing the glory of God and making the gospel seem irrelevant and so we need to teach a

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Fresh in the 21st century precisely what we just celebrated a couple weeks ago with Reformation Day 500

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The Reformation wouldn't have been the Reformation if it worked for recovering the doctrine of depravity

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Which is the only black backdrop against which the the diamond of the gospel really shines in all of its glory

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Amen and When you so tastefully put it that that humanity is raising up two middle fingers to God In in our nature in our nature before obviously being regenerate and only a small portion percentage wise

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Would be in that category There are going to be probably most if not all people even if they are as lost as lost can be unless they happen to be

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Actually members of a A satanic cult of some kind or or Some religion that is more open in their hatred for Jesus Christ because most religions even though they do not believe in his deity or that he is a savior of any kind most

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Religions or representatives of religions in our day and age would view Jesus Christ as a wonderfully kind and compassionate

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Guru of some sort But most people I think would say you're way off base.

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I don't have that kind of a Attitude towards Jesus Christ at all. I love celebrating

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Christmas and Easter and I love the story of Jesus's Humility and sacrifice and the way that he fed the poor and healed the sick.

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I don't have this kind of Hatred that you are describing but isn't it that in reality?

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They don't have a hatred against a Jesus of their own imagination that may include some truths, but it's still nonetheless not a biblical

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Jesus that they're really referring to Yeah, yeah, I think you nailed it on the head.

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There's kind of a politically correct nice guy Jesus that perpetuates in our culture, you know,

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I think of When it's time to golf uncle or somebody back in the 60s, you know,

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Jesus is just all right with me kind of thing That was the Doobie Brothers There you go. Yeah, and there's that that pop version of Jesus.

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It's just the nice guy Jesus and And I think

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CF Lewis Nails it when it comes to the nice guy Jesus when he says look that's that's just not an option

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It's just not an option to think he's a generally nice guy with some in spirit inspirational

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Teachings on helping the poor and the disenfranchised he is those things But the kind of person who would make the radical claims that Jesus made claims the

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I am claims of John 8 58 before Abraham was a me I am

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These claims to divinity if you're making those claims and you aren't actually to say

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Anthropos the God man God incarnate you weren't it? Basically good person with some inspirational ethics.

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You're either as Lewis famously argued a lunatic who belongs in a padded room

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You're you're a liar You know with malevolent intentions deceiving people into thinking you're

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God when you're not or you are in fact Everything you claim to be which isn't an inspirational ethical teacher

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But the only Lord who can save us from our depravity and I think you know in years and years of working with atheists

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You know, I taught before I started Biola. I was at a secular college for about eight eight to nine years teaching

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Classrooms full of atheists and I would hear that every semester very few people who were just Positively Antagonistic to Jesus or would just say, you know, he was

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Crazy the overwhelming majority. Yeah a good guy. We could follow him But again as Lewis said, well, that's just not an option if you're actually reading your

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New Testament right and even Today in the 21st century and probably for quite a long time before that you will have

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Orthodox Jews saying wonderful things about Jesus, but either they haven't read the

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Talmudic Descriptions of of Jesus or they just care not to mention them because they're quite horrifying

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Yeah, that's right. The Sanhedrin section 63 of the Talmud called them a sorcerer and a deceiver and yeah, that's

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It's just again. It's this political correctness that we don't want to step on anybody's toes or hurt anybody's feelings

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We'll say he's basically a nice guy Yeah, and in fact, that's good.

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I'm sorry I'm sorry. I stepped on your last few words there Oh, that's that was the basic idea that if you read the

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New Testament the nice guy version of Jesus just isn't an open option right and for those of you who think that Norman Greenbaum's 1970s song spirit in the sky is a wonderful song about Jesus That's just a nonsensical

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Song that has no Root in biblical truth. In fact, there's one line in the song where Norman says,

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I'm not a sinner. I've never sinned So obviously he has no need of a

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Savior named Jesus in his mind, but anyway There's 60s rock

30:36

Pelagianism, that's right. I'm a Greenberg wrote the soundtrack to 20th century

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Pelagianism for you the brilliant song musically the musician I can appreciate the guitar tones, but Theologically, not so much.

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Yeah, right one of the most recognizable recognizable to guitar riffs in the history of music

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Yeah Well, we have to go I know what it was.

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I was I was imitating. Mr. Rogers. I like you as you are In fact, you don't have to in fact,

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I think that you've just given me a Conclusion that it might be incorrect, but it sounds like ZZ Top might have ripped that riff off.

31:35

But anyway then later years My apologies to the folk my apologies to the folks in ZZ Top I was just joking

31:49

Anyway, um, we have to go to our first break right now And if anybody would like to join us, we do have several of you already waiting to have your questions asked and answered

31:58

But if anybody else would like to get in line, our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

32:03

chris ar n z e n at gmail .com Please give us your first name city and state country of residence if you live outside the

32:11

USA and only remain anonymous if the question is about a Personal and private matter don't go away.

32:17

God willing. We'll be right back with the deus. Well Thaddeus Williams Tired of box -store

32:23

Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

32:31

And how about the preaching perhaps? You've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

32:38

Well, there's good news Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience

32:44

Featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you call them at 6 3 1 9 2 9 35 12 for service times 6 3 1 9 2 9 35 12 or check out their website at wrbc .us

33:04

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We hope that iron sharpens iron radio blesses you for many years to come Welcome back.

36:27

This is Chris Ornson. If you just tuned us in our guest today is Thaddeus Williams he has returned to speak about his book reflect becoming yourself by mirroring the greatest

36:39

Person in history and we are discussing Specifically a chapter in his book elevate which is mirroring the saving grace of Jesus Christ And if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is

36:54

Chris Ornson at gmail .com chris Arnzen at gmail .com

37:01

and I want you to all keep in mind that we are giving books away

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But we are not going to give books away to those who have already won Thaddeus's book

37:13

Since we already have interviewed him and done a giveaway. So these books that we are giving away are

37:19

For first -time winners only but I am making one exception and I'll tell you why we have

37:25

Joe in Slovenia Who has sent us a question. He already won a book, but I am going to Send this book to his daughter in Georgia that she can have a copy for herself

37:39

Georgia here in the United States not the country and So we thank you

37:45

Joe in Slovenia for sending in a question and his question is Please ask brother Thaddeus.

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I keep saying Thaddeus. The reason why I keep saying that Thaddeus is that I have a friend named

37:58

Thaddeus who spells it identically to you He's the only person and that I've ever heard of with a name spelt like yours that pronounces it that way

38:09

Thaddeus his parents are from Tennessee and Oklahoma.

38:14

I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but or maybe just Something specifically in their own preference why they pronounce it

38:21

Thaddeus. But anyway Please Ask brother

38:36

Thaddeus to address the aspect of Christ that seems to be excluded from our theology in the interest of reflecting

38:44

Jesus in light of the assertion that it takes a whole Bible to teach the whole

38:49

Christ to make a whole Christian Are we to emulate and reflect his wrath as well as his grace?

38:56

If so, how if not, why not? Are we to balance wrath and grace or are we to be all gracious and never wrathful?

39:07

Thanks so much for your insightful and edifying ministry. That's an excellent question because as I'm sure you would agree

39:15

Thaddeus that that most of Christendom in the 21st century has a

39:22

Jesus of Greeting cards a Jesus of certain movie depictions of him being nearly

39:35

Identical to a hippie on Valium or something very passive very quiet and although we know he was a

39:46

Meek and mild individual and he was gracious and patient And he

39:55

Willingly gave up his life for us. He laid it down. It was not taken from him But we also have a

40:02

Jesus that overturned Tables in the temple and we have a Jesus who was calling the Pharisees whitewashed sepulchers filled with dead men's bones and I guess the the issue is

40:12

How far do we go in imitating that aspect of Jesus the the second one?

40:18

That's a good question Joe from Slovenia is Four four four every time Ben on the show.

40:23

He comes in with a great question. So Joe, it's great to hear from you again I hope this helps Superb question

40:30

I would say If I could rephrase the question, it's how do we balance?

40:36

Mirroring Jesus meek and mild with Jesus mean and wild Because they're both right there in the

40:43

New Testament Jesus meek and mild Jesus Mean and wild they're both there.

40:48

You have the table -flipping Jesus Right alongside the dying for his enemies

40:54

Jesus So let me just throw out a few thoughts that it'll hopefully point in the right direction in the emotes chapter of reflects the second chapter that he

41:06

I Spent quite a bit of ink on Jesus flipping tables

41:14

In the temple and how that is actually something we're supposed to mirror and Part of the historical backdrop.

41:22

Why why did Jesus's blood get boiling? In the gospel accounts of the table -flipping

41:30

What you see happening there is His father which

41:36

Who Jesus loved infinitely in that intra trinitarian relationship? His father is being trivialized because the temple where the father's supposed to be worshiped and revered and Enjoyed has turned into a big business

41:51

And so you have I actually did the math in the book that in order to purchase your dove to participate in the

42:00

Passover week festivities that the amount of inflation to buy a temple approved dove was

42:09

Forty times what a dove would have cost outside the temple and so you had people taking the worship of the father and Exploiting it for financial gain now from what we know historically the way the temple was was built you had the big courtyard where the table -flipping occurred and The entry points to the courtyard.

42:33

There was a few of them That's where poor people would typically kind of set up shop and receive charity from the temple goers so you if you paint that picture in your mind you have

42:49

Extreme greed literally footsteps away from extreme need So you have people in dire straits

42:56

Going back to 60s and 70s rocks a little dire straits reference for you You have people in dire straits who are just feet away from people who are claiming to Be all about the worship of the father

43:08

But they're exploiting the poor Because it was the poor who are most heavily exploited by that system because the rich didn't have to buy dove

43:17

They could go in for a bowl or a goat or something like that And so when Jesus sees that his father's name is being dragged through the mud

43:26

Religion is being twisted the gospel of grace is turning into a gospel of greed, which is no gospel at all and Jesus You know his fury kicks in and he's flipping tables, which just interesting historical side note

43:44

By flipping those tables the money changers, you know, if you've ever Traveled internationally, you know

43:49

You have to pay the money changers just to turn your currency into the currency of whatever country you're going to well at the temple, they

43:59

Figured that out that hey, not only can we overcharge In a ratio of 40 to 1 or a bird to sacrifice

44:08

But we can also exploit people further by making them exchange

44:13

We are going to at the temple accept any, you know, Phoenician currency or any

44:18

Roman currency We're only going to accept the sacred shekels And so now this just gave a new way at a gouging exchange rate, by the way

44:27

And so it just turned into this this vicious Exploitative business and that sends

44:33

Jesus into fury. And so there he is flipping tables And so I think that there's something to the outrage of Jesus that we can learn from and that we ought to mirror

44:43

You know when we see the bending ends of the world and we see the Kenneth Copeland's of the world the

44:49

Frederick Price's that the televangelists of the world going out and Turning God into a means to get money out of people if our blood isn't boiling at that Then we have some sanctification to do we have some

45:06

Conforming of our emotions to the emotions of Jesus to do and so just a very practical tip to any listeners

45:14

If you feel like hey, I kind of shrug my shoulders American televangelism go and watch what up here in California is channel 40

45:23

I don't know what it is around the nation, but watch the Trinity broadcasting network watch a Benny Hinn crusade watch

45:30

Joel Osteen do what Joel Osteen does watch these televangelists and Pray while you're watching

45:37

Holy Spirit, would you generate in me the same kind of emotions Jesus feels towards this?

45:42

And you'll start to experience part of what it means to reflect the wrath of Jesus in a biblical way

45:50

So I think that there's a balance to be struck. Yes were to forgive as Christ forgives

45:55

Yes were to be gracious as Jesus is gracious And I'm so grateful that Joe from Slovenia for raising the question

46:04

Because again there is this balance to be struck you reflect the grace of Jesus well But you simultaneously are outraged at the things that outraged

46:12

Jesus you were simultaneously Your blood boils at the things that boiled Jesus's blood and to strike that balance

46:20

You know in fact Ephesians even commanded be angry is the way the original Greek reads in Ephesians be angry but in your anger don't sit and So one of the emotions that's part and parcel of a robust Christian life is outrage

46:36

It is anger, but it's not a selfish anger Jesus at the temple wasn't

46:43

Offended on his own sake it wasn't hey you hurt my feelings now. I'm gonna now

46:49

I'm in a huff it was you had belittled my father who I love infinitely And so if we're just being angry all the time

46:57

And we're wrathful all the time because somebody stepped on our toes and somebody hurt our feelings

47:02

That's not Christ like outrage In fact it fascinates me reading the

47:07

Gospels how rarely Christ is outraged on his own sake Jesus is very hard to offend for his own sake throughout the

47:16

Gospels But the minute his father is trivialized Then the blood starts to boil and the more

47:22

Christlike we become we start to feel those emotions, too And the televangelist will boil our blood the same way the temple

47:31

The temple management spoiled Jesus's blood in the first century So it is a balance to strike

47:36

Joe's goes on to something there And I think for help to pull that balance off.

47:43

That's where the Holy Spirit comes in That's where it's left to our own devices. We will get angry at the wrong things

47:49

It will be too gracious to things that we actually should draw a line and say no that's just flat -out wrong

47:55

And so the indwelling Holy Spirit has a lot of work to do in terms of Posturing our hearts to be appropriately outraged and appropriately gracious So I hope that that helps

48:09

Joan Slovenia and any of the other listeners At least put him in the right direction of thinking through some of those issues now before any of our listeners start running over to their local

48:21

Catholic Church or Synagogue and begin turning over bingo tables

48:26

When you say we're supposed to imitate Christ Are you merely speaking about his anger?

48:34

Because obviously there are certain things Jesus did that if we were to imitate him Exactly in the way that he responded to events and to people

48:45

We would be getting ourselves into a lot of trouble And in fact there is I'm not going to mention any names in this conflict because there is quite a heated debate on the internet going on between two brothers who

49:02

Theologically have a lot of agreement Excuse me. But um, one of these brothers went into a

49:11

Church where Rodney Howard Brown the notorious laughing revival heretic

49:17

Was speaking I don't even want to dignify what he did by calling it preaching But uh, and so this individual who is a sovereign grace believing

49:28

Baptist individual went into this gathered assembly where Rodney Howard Brown was performing his satanic little act there and The person the the person who was theologically sound

49:44

In their midst stood up and began heckling and yelling and rebuking and then that person was bodily dragged outside of the meeting hall

49:56

And so another brother who's a reformed Baptist had been publicly rebuking that individual for doing that Especially in a day and age

50:04

When there are shootings going on like the one that recently took place in Texas Where people are going to perhaps be

50:15

Pulling out guns depending upon where you live and and shooting you if you do something like that, but if you could

50:22

Maybe give a perhaps more detailed explanation of what you mean by how we respond And in our efforts to imitate

50:29

Jesus to something like a heretic like Rodney Howard Brown Sure.

50:35

Yeah, that's a great question. I would say You know, we can't just take it we make a huge mistake if we just read all of Scripture as normative if We just read.

50:48

Oh, well, this is recorded in Scripture. Therefore. I have to do that and even in the case of the poor gospel accounts of Jesus's life not everything there is intended to be normative and So it's something like our conversation last time about the regulative principle of worship if to what extent

51:07

Scripture prescribed the given behavior and to what extent if it's silence

51:13

Can we kind of fill in that silence? It's something like that Now when

51:20

I look at Paul in his letters, I See him at times as maybe

51:26

I could frame the question this way should we mirror or imitate or reflect the outrage of Jesus and I Think a helpful grid for answering that question is to look at Paul because Paul says in his letters

51:41

Imitate me even as I imitate Christ What's got Paul's blood boiling and lo and behold?

51:49

it's exactly what got Jesus's blood boiling whenever the gospel is twisted and perverted and whenever the

51:58

Father's glory is diminished and so Paul He's not it's not

52:04

Paul meek and mild It's Paul mean and wild when Hymenaeus and Philephus are distorting the gospel.

52:10

He calls them out by name He writes these letters to warn the flock about these wolves

52:17

When Paul is writing to the Galatians, he doesn't use politically correct language

52:23

He says, you know, I wish the Judaizers sect Who were adding to the gospel and saying you got to get circumcised and keep a mile -long list of do's and don'ts and Abide by the dietary restrictions.

52:38

You have to add all this to the finished crosswork of Jesus Paul says some pretty uncharitable things like I wish they would just the circumcision group would go the full way and Emasculate themselves, you know, he he is able to be outraged properly when the gospel is being twisted

52:56

Now to go beyond that So again that the kind of normative principle here is whether the gospel is at stake now

53:07

I think when You look at Rodney Howard Brown with the holy laughter movement and the whole

53:14

Counterfeit revivalism that he's helped to inspire. You have a clear case where it's not about God's glory

53:22

God is a means to the end of me getting a high God God is the means to the end of me

53:29

Laughing hysterically for six hours so I can escape my humdrum life In fact, let's pick up right where you left off there because we have to go to our midway break right now

53:38

Yep Charlie we return we'll pick right where you left off if anybody else would like to join us on the air our email address is

53:43

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsor

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God willing tomorrow between 10 a .m. And 4 30 p .m We before we return to our discussion with Thaddeus Williams We are going to give a couple of announcements that are very important in regard to events special events that are being conducted by our some of our clients or advertisers

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We have coming up on Friday December 8th

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It's actually seven days after Thaddeus Williams's next interview

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Friday, December 8th We have Marcus a

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McKnight the third a very dear friend of mine very well -known Christian attorney here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania He is managing shareholder of Irwin and McKnight PC and he

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Leads a number of Bible studies amongst businessmen in the area at varying times of day

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He's really a dedicated man in regard to spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ especially amongst the business owner

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Community here in Carlisle, but he is going to be speaking on the theme

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Joseph the quiet hero of Christmas Friday December 8th 2017 at 1130 a .m

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It will last until 1 p .m. It's being held at the Carlisle suites in downtown,

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania I'm sorry the comfort suites in downtown, Carlisle, Pennsylvania and If you want more details about this event if you want to register for it call 717 three nine five five eight five four seven one seven three nine five

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Five eight five four. This is an event sponsored by CB MC Christian businessmen's connection and Once again, it's

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Marcus a McKnight the third attorney -at -law speaking on Joseph the quiet hero of Christmas In fact,

01:06:14

I should also add that Marcus is a former elder of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle where I am a member

01:06:21

He is now a member of the West Shore Evangelical Free Church in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania But so Marcus is more than merely an attorney -at -law he is also someone who has a very

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Trained a biblical mind. So I think that you will be blessed by attending that then coming up in January from the 18th through the 20th

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James White Tom Askew Anthony Matheny and Michael Kruger David Miller Paul Tripp Todd Friel Derek Thomas Martha peace and Justin Peters the theme of the conference is

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01:08:22

We are indeed truly on the brink of going off the air because of the fact that we are behind in our bills and we are not seeing quite the the outpouring of checks from our listeners that we once were seeing and Appreciating but I can say

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As these are some of these checks that I've received very recently are from people that I've never heard from before One woman a

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Thaddeus Williams We are talking about his book once again reflect becoming yourself by mirroring the greatest person in history and Specifically we are addressing a chapter in the book elevate mirroring mirroring the saving race of Jesus Christ If you'd like to join us our email address is

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com And as you know

01:13:23

Thaddeus before the break we were specifically addressing Rodney Howard Brown one of the most grotesque heretics and charlatans known to modern

01:13:33

Christendom and We were using him as an example of how to imitate

01:13:42

Jesus Christ when he Was overturning temple or to That would have been quite a miraculous task

01:13:51

Nothing for him, of course, but overturning tables in the temples and you were talking about that it is appropriate to imitate the the anger the righteous indignation of Jesus in regard to false teachers like this, but I'd like you to pick up where you left off on that thought

01:14:16

Sure. So if you read the gospel accounts closely of Jesus at the temple There's a fascinating detail that we tend to just gloss over and that is right after Jesus cleared the temple

01:14:28

You know, he split the tables all the coins of the money changers are scattered on the ground there's doves flying around it's a bit chaotic and The Gospels record that the poor

01:14:44

People with broken bodies and This is most fascinating to me as a parent the children

01:14:52

Approach Jesus and he healed them and To me as a parent of four.

01:14:59

I know that that kids have very good emotional radars and if they see just pure Blind rage, which hopefully they haven't seen for me

01:15:09

But but if they pick up on something like that, they don't approach you they go the opposite direction and so the fact that the children are approaching

01:15:17

Jesus in the gospel accounts of his of his Table -slipping rage in the temple tells me that they were able to pick up on something even deeper than the rage

01:15:28

They knew that this whole Episode was motivated by something deeper Right by a deeper compassion a deeper love for the father and a love for the people who are being exploited by the temple system by the by the temple's get -rich -scheme and So to me that that's one of the principles we should apply

01:15:49

Going back to Joan Slovenia's question of how to imitate the wrath of God.

01:15:55

I don't think wrath should be the bedrock emotion when you read the

01:16:02

New Testament accounts of Jesus's wrath in the temple Underneath that is a compassion the kind of compassion that drew the poor that drew

01:16:12

Children to Jesus immediately after he's just been flipping tables so they were able to detect behind the anger a more bedrock emotion well for the father and love for people and So going back to the recent

01:16:29

Rodney Howard Brown episode It's just a question I would raise

01:16:35

I'm not a question I would raise I'm not very familiar with all the details of it

01:16:40

But I would ask knowing very little about what happened Were the people who showed up at the

01:16:46

Rodney Howard Brown event? motivated by Self aggrandizing, maybe we'll get a lot of clicks on social media

01:16:54

Maybe we'll get some some attention was it for their glory or was it for the father's glory like Jesus's table -flipping rage in the temple

01:17:04

Was there any semblance of? the children coming to Jesus and Jesus healing the poor and Loving the vulnerable did any of that occur at the

01:17:16

Rodney Howard Brown event? Or was it purely kind of a publicity stunt again? I don't know

01:17:22

I wasn't there I have very little familiarity with the event but I think that's some some helpful categories for thinking through the ways in which we express the outrage of Jesus in the 21st century and if I could just add

01:17:39

One final thought to that that taps back into what I'm up to in the book reflect part of my big argument in these seven chapters is that Jesus is integrated.

01:17:54

This isn't in the very last chapter. I just spell all this out as clearly as I can but the part of what makes

01:18:01

Jesus so so captivating so worthy of worship is

01:18:08

He's not just brilliant. He's not just intellectual. He couldn't just School the intellectuals of his day with a brilliant logical argument, which he does and I talked about in chapter one

01:18:20

He didn't just have a robust emotional life like I talked about in chapter two

01:18:26

He wasn't just incredibly creative like I talked about later in the book. He was all of these worship worthy things at the same time

01:18:36

Jesus is integrated In other words, it's not that we take

01:18:43

Rationality plus perfect emotions plus creativity plus moral perfection

01:18:49

Plus graciousness and you do some basic metaphysical arithmetic add it all together and it equals

01:18:56

Jesus Jesus is all of those things to the power of every other thing.

01:19:02

He is creatively rational and lovingly creative and creatively loving and you can take every attribute of Jesus and Use it as an adverb or an adjective to describe every other attribute which is a another way of saying

01:19:20

Jesus is Totally integrated and so for worshiping him and becoming like him.

01:19:27

We won't just be rational We won't just be kind of theology nerds who can lack eloquence about the finer points of doctrine

01:19:34

But we'll be able to do that in a way that embodies the love of Jesus and the graciousness of Jesus In the outrage of Jesus when that's appropriate we find ourselves becoming more integrated as we engage heretics like Rodney Brown and so that would be my question with the guys who

01:19:54

Apparently showed up at one of his events and from what I know they showed up with chest cams

01:20:00

Which tells me they were looking to kind of pick a fight and get some controversial footage. I would ask how

01:20:07

Christ -like Are they being in terms of are they not just mirroring good doctrine and thinking like Jesus?

01:20:15

But is there a genuine compassion for the people who've been exploited by Rodney Howard Brown and his heresy?

01:20:21

Is are they reflecting kind of a full spectrum of Christ -likeness in the way that they engage a heretic like Rodney?

01:20:29

Howard Brown and compassion toward the people who have been duped by his Theology.

01:20:35

Oh, so I guess you are actually familiar with this event that took place because I didn't even know they had chest cams on Yeah, just slightly just having followed a mutual friend on Facebook and reading a few of his posts, but I know

01:20:49

Not much beyond that well, we have a related question from Caitlin in Orlando, Florida Caitlin says don't you think that one of the huge differences between Jesus overturning temples?

01:21:08

Here I am again saying that same phrase overturning tables Temple And Rodney Howard Brown speaking heresy in a church and having people begin to heckle him or People going to a

01:21:27

Catholic Church or synagogue and overturning bingo tables is that the temple could rightly be called the household of God in Jesus's day and Jesus came out from among the

01:21:41

Jewish people. This was truly his house whereas the churches that Feature Rodney Howard Brown and similar heretics and also your local

01:21:53

Catholic Church or modern synagogue Have no connection with God's true houses of worship and never did

01:22:01

Sure Caitlin In Florida, I would say

01:22:07

I 100 % agree with you, but just a few more thoughts To take the conversation further is when

01:22:16

Paul is calling out the Judaizers The Judaizers false gospel of you have to get circumcised to get saved wasn't tied to a particular locale it was just an anti -gospel that was being perpetuated in duping people away from enjoying the actual gospel and So I think there's a principle there that even if Rodney Howard Brown doesn't represent any kind of House of God the way the temple did in the first century

01:22:48

There's still a sense in which Paul got bent out of shape by their heresy So if Joel Osteen is teaching a 21st century

01:22:59

Pelagian ism. You're all good people. How can Jesus turn you from good into great?

01:23:05

Versus the actual gospel. How can God turn you from depraved into saved? You don't have to fly out to Texas and go to the you know, a normal dome or wherever he does his

01:23:21

Protest you have to go and Kick over his pulpit but you need to speak out you need to speak out because people are being duped because the name of Jesus is being used in a counterfeit way as Jesus the life coach versus Jesus the

01:23:37

Savior We need to draw a line and say so much is at stake here eternal things are at stake here and so we need to speak loud and clear and articulate the gospel that once and for all entrusted to the

01:23:51

Saints we need to contend for that gospel regardless of whether it has the

01:23:56

Kind of spatial locality that the first century temple does So so that would be my response with Kaitlyn I agree with her but I would say we can't just get too fixated on the fact that the

01:24:09

Catholic Church Is it an exact equivalent of the first century temple? I agree with her a hundred percent but part of the

01:24:16

New Testament command to us is to contend for the gospel and that means irregardless of spatial location we need to stand for the gospel of grace now,

01:24:28

I I Don't want to act like I'm speaking for Kaitlyn and she can clarify her question if she wants to but I think she may have been focusing primarily if not exclusively on the fact that Jesus was turning over tables and Disrupting something going on in a house of worship for instance,

01:24:52

I Personally don't believe that we should be entering into The houses of worship of those in false religions or even a professedly

01:25:03

Christian churches where there is heresy or inappropriate activity going on and causing a commotion

01:25:09

And disrupting their services because we better expect those people to do that to our worship services but I but I think there's a difference if Our pastor of Our own church or a guest speaker

01:25:28

Starts saying something Ridiculously or incredibly or disgustingly blasphemous or heretical from the pulpit.

01:25:36

I can very readily see a Member or perhaps especially an elder of the church standing up and saying

01:25:44

Keep silent. You are speaking blasphemy or you are speaking heresy and have deacons perhaps even remove the person bodily

01:25:52

But that's in your own church. I don't I don't feel comfortable Giving any commendation to people going into other houses of worship and doing something similar to that Yeah, it's an important question that Caitlin raises because part of what?

01:26:10

Martin Luther how his followers took it too far within his own lifetime Was they were going in with literal hammers, you know, they're known historically as the iconoclast and they were going with hammers and physically smashed

01:26:23

Catholic people's and the statues and and the icons and Luther's Spoke very strongly against that And so I think there's a way we can we can start with what seemed like biblical principles

01:26:38

I'm standing up for the gospel and take it too far and his history's a teacher here that it has been taken too far and I think a solution to that is part of the driving thesis of my reflect book again

01:26:54

If we're taking our cues from Christ if we're really worshiping him and not claiming to It's not just again those check boxes on a doctrinal statement

01:27:03

But he's our daily object of worship and supreme devotion. We find ourselves becoming like him not just doctrinally

01:27:13

But emotionally not just emotionally but mirroring something of his graciousness not just his graciousness

01:27:20

But also his creativity not just his creativity, but also his holiness And so I think it's it's difficult to give kind of a hard and fast rule and say here's

01:27:30

There's kind of a black and white line You could know when the lines been crossed but in terms of articulating a crystal clear line that that's more of a challenge

01:27:41

But I think in the process of the Holy Spirit conforming you to the image of Christ That in and of itself by the

01:27:49

Spirit's power Kind of filters out a lot of the more extreme versions

01:27:56

Where we become the self -righteous iconoclasts of the 21st century Well, thank you so much

01:28:05

Caitlin in Orlando, Florida You have also won a free copy of the book that we are discussing today reflect becoming yourself

01:28:13

By mirroring the greatest person in history by our guest Thaddeus Williams and this is a publication of Weaver Book Company.

01:28:23

We thank Jim Weaver and the wonderful folks at Weaver Book Company for providing us with these free copies of reflect today

01:28:33

And this is quite a as I've said before quite a beautiful book physically

01:28:39

Aesthetically, it is not only a book rich with content, which is obviously the most important thing

01:28:45

But Weaver Book Company surely does do a great job on the aesthetic and as well, don't they?

01:28:52

Yeah, that was Whenever I think maybe I told you before but every time

01:28:58

I hit writer's block in the two -year process of putting reflect together I would draw

01:29:04

One of the faces of some theologian or scholar I was quoting and so over two years that turned into a cover

01:29:13

With over, you know, 45 faces of people. So the cover is is all hand -drawn

01:29:22

By the author in a way that hopefully adds a bit of aesthetic quality What hopefully is is a lot of theological quality

01:29:30

Yes, I remember I now remember that you are the artist and I am an art major myself and I could

01:29:35

I think admire with some wisdom in the area The skill that it took to create this cover.

01:29:44

So For the listeners who have already received a copy or will pick one up I have four kids all four have been hidden as You know little

01:29:59

Easter eggs on the cover somewhere So they're tiny little images of all four

01:30:06

Williams kids on the cover of reflect so And another another bit of trivia.

01:30:13

You will see my portrait with radiant beams of light coming out from behind me

01:30:20

That One's gonna be called reject right or reject depending upon where you want to put the emphasis

01:30:37

But we have to go to our final break right now And if anybody would like to join us on the air now is the time to do it before we run out of time

01:30:45

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:30:51

Please give us as always your first name your city and state and your country of residence

01:30:57

If you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter over which you are asking

01:31:04

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Don't go away God -willing. We'll be right back after these messages with more of Thaddeus Williams and our discussion on his book reflect

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Solid -ground -books .com and from cvbbs .com Well, we are back with our guest thaddeus williams uh, who is the author of reflect becoming yourself by mirroring the greatest person in history and we have

01:41:28

Susan margaret from dauphin county Pennsylvania who has a question

01:41:35

She says could you please clarify? The phrase that you use describing jesus and paul

01:41:42

Mean and wild some people might get the wrong impression That wild in this case would equate out of control

01:41:52

Excuse me. I'm losing my voice here I'm sure you didn't mean that but I just wanted you to have a chance to clarify that Uh thaddeus, are you there?

01:42:05

I think yes now I do Okay. Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, but I wild i'd never intended to convey a sense of out of control

01:42:15

By any means I just meant a sense of Righteous outrage against anything that diminishes the glory of the father

01:42:24

Um, so so hopefully that that clears it up. There's never a sense in which jesus or paul for that matter

01:42:33

Was out of control of his emotions. It all had to do with An extreme in controlness of their emotions a sense of the father's being diminished by this or that heresy

01:42:44

And so let me be passionately Uh opposed to that Yeah, and of course some people also might define mean as unnecessarily cruel

01:42:55

But obviously jesus being perfect and sinless whenever he demonstrated anger and wrath or chastisement he was never being uh

01:43:10

Overstepping his bounds because he was sinless. He was he was god in the flesh or is god in the flesh exactly, and that's something i'm up to in chapter two of the reflect book and actually the

01:43:22

The book i've been working on recently, which is a prequel to reflect i'm working on a book called revere

01:43:28

Uh, which is about god the father how to revere the father Uh volume two that's already out reflect the sun and lord willing there'll be volume three receive the spirit out in a few years

01:43:40

It's intended to be a trilogy about the triune god and the way

01:43:45

I wrote it was that you could either read book by book or Superimpose them on top of each other so that if you read the first chapter of each

01:43:55

You would get a trinitarian theology of the intellectual life if you read the second chapter of each

01:44:00

You get a trinitarian theology of the emotional life and so on um And so that's kind of the bigger vision

01:44:08

Beyond just the reflect book And I think that the questioner is exactly right

01:44:14

We don't want to think of god as in any way wild in the sense of out of control of his emotions and Part of what i've been thinking a lot about lately is most theologians

01:44:28

Uh, if you pick up a systematic theology textbook off the shelf It will talk about the doctrine of divine impassibility

01:44:37

Which is a technical term that you know theology nerds like me and chris could talk about until the sun goes down But but impassibility is the idea that god has

01:44:50

It's not that god is emotionless Or god doesn't feel It's it's the doctrine in the reformed tradition that god is without passion and what that means is that You know passions the questioner's question is

01:45:07

I'm pushed and pulled by these emotions. I can't control them. They control me god doesn't have any of that uh god doesn't have in the reformed tradition passions that he's

01:45:19

Hugged by so much as he has affections as the language of the reformers that he has

01:45:26

Strong feelings towards the elect. He has strong feelings towards his redemptive goals his covenant commitment humanity, he has strong affections, but passion really does convey this sense of Passivity and i'm being pushed and pulled by my emotions and that's that's not anything

01:45:44

I intended to convey by the word uh while And if I could just just take that one short step further and kind of a

01:45:54

Little preview of where i'm going with my next book My next book a short way of describing it is

01:46:01

It's seven chapters about the creator creature distinction And in other words, there's ways that we are supposed to reflect

01:46:09

God in ways that we aren't and this goes back to joe from slovenia's question There's ways that we are supposed to reflect god in ways that we aren't

01:46:18

Well in our culture We've erased that line altogether. There's no creator creature distinction in 21st century american culture

01:46:28

And what happens when you erase that line? Is that divine attributes? If you don't believe in the divine

01:46:36

Those become human attributes and so impassibility the idea that we have

01:46:42

Perfect affections all of our feelings are sacred and sacrosanct In our culture what we're seeing happening, whether it's the transgender debate

01:46:51

Whether it's lgbtq questions and religious liberty all of these kind of headline issues

01:46:58

On a deeper theological level what's happening is we've erased the creator creature distinction so impassibility emotional perfection

01:47:09

That used to be ascribed to god Because our culture has erased the creator

01:47:15

That attribute is now being Ascribed to us the creatures and so my affections my emotions my passion

01:47:25

Those are unquestionable Those are sacred. Those are authoritative. So if I feel

01:47:31

Like i'm a woman trapped in a man's body If I feel a sexual draw towards this or that gender, how dare you question me because i am impassible

01:47:41

I'm the creator of my own little private universe And so my feelings

01:47:47

As a creature get elevated to god status And so that's part of what i'm up to in in the new book is talking about how these ways that we were never intended to reflect god

01:47:58

Are now being taken over by the zeitgeist by the spirit of the age in ways that we are just Being self -destructive

01:48:07

Because we've overlooked one of the most core Distinctions in the history of reformed thinking the creator creature distinction

01:48:14

So I know that's not what the question is, but hopefully that That takes the conversation further by the way

01:48:21

Susan margaret you've also won a free copy of the book That we are discussing reflect becoming yourself by mirroring the greatest person in history compliments of weaver

01:48:33

Book company and compliments of our friends at cvbbs .com who will ship that out to you at no charge to you or to us

01:48:41

So, please make sure we have your full mailing address so that could be shipped out to you as soon as possible

01:48:48

We have george in east penceborough township, pennsylvania

01:48:54

And george says according to your theme today Which is mirroring the saving grace of jesus

01:49:02

That must also include forgiveness And there seems to be quite a controversy and debate in the reform community over What forgiveness actually means?

01:49:14

there are people who are Theologically reformed who believe that we are to extend forgiveness to anyone even if they never ask for it

01:49:24

And you have others who insist? That only those who repent are to be forgiven

01:49:31

Even though we are to always extend love to them and pray for them and do good

01:49:38

To them We are still not to forgive them unless they repent. Are you familiar with this controversy?

01:49:45

And what side? Do you stand on? Yeah, that is that is a great question

01:49:51

I will say i'm remotely familiar with the controversy I truthfully haven't reckoned with it in the scriptures enough to give any kind of confident response

01:50:06

One way or the other That's a short answer um a few thoughts that I do have that again don't take these as as being fully reasoned through in an anchor to the text of scripture um but but just a thought or two

01:50:28

Um, I see credence in the point that god doesn't forgive us until we ask for it

01:50:36

From a deeper reform perspective. The reason we ask for it is we've had a heart surgery where god pulled a rock out of our chest that couldn't respond to him and replaced it and the language of ezekiel 36 the heart

01:50:49

Flesh a heart that it beats for his glory. And so god does a Supernatural regenerating work that makes us want forgiveness

01:50:57

Now how you go from there to the question of how do we apply forgiveness?

01:51:03

The people in our lives who have wronged us and show no heart transformation

01:51:09

No heart surgery happened There's there's zero repentance um

01:51:16

I I take ephesians very seriously where paul says forgive those You know as forgive people as christ has forgiven you

01:51:23

I take that passage very seriously To the question of whether they've asked for it again this is an unthought through perspective i'm

01:51:33

Thinking out loud here if I can tell you from my experience i've had people wrongly very wrong me very deeply and If I had waited

01:51:46

For their i'm sorry uh That the forgiveness would have never happened

01:51:52

I could have still tried to muster the willpower to love them um

01:51:58

But the actual reconciliation would have never taken place In many cases in my own life and in my own personal experience.

01:52:06

I've had to go to the wrongdoers And point out here's what you did

01:52:12

Here's why it was wrong. Here's ways in which it damaged me Jesus saved me when

01:52:19

I was broken Unrepentant dead in sin He forgave me at my worst

01:52:26

And so I am forgiving you based on this transgression and at times i've done that and the person has responded with genuine repentance other times not so much other times

01:52:42

Uh a full denial that any transgression ever occurred um but in either scenario

01:52:50

I felt Um in a good place about the fact that I have done my best to take the vertical grace that i've received and extend it horizontally

01:53:01

Now, I know i've said five times but just one last time i'm not claiming that's the only theological approach to people wronging us and how to forgive when forgiveness hasn't been requested but Hopefully i've said something there that that moves the conversation forward

01:53:19

Well, uh, thank you george and you will also receive A free copy of the book we have been discussing today

01:53:27

Reflect becoming yourself by mirroring the greatest person in history by our guest thaddeus williams compliments of the weaver book company and also

01:53:37

A compliments of our friends at cvbbs .com who are shipping This book out to you free of charge

01:53:45

So, uh, please make sure we have your full mailing address And i'd like you brother to have at least three minutes or so uh to unburden your heart and to Let our listeners know what you most want etched on their hearts and minds, uh during or before the end of this program

01:54:05

Yeah, i'm glad you asked there's Something i'm up to in the chapter that I think is

01:54:11

It's just crucial That everybody listening myself included And that is you know,

01:54:18

I mentioned earlier. I teach an evangelism class at biola university in tablet school theology and Jesus cares passionately about evangelism.

01:54:29

He cares that As many people as possible are enjoying the father He doesn't suggest he commissions us to take

01:54:38

The gospel to the ends of the earth to make disciples of every tongue tribe and nation

01:54:44

This is a high priority on god's uh on god's list And what

01:54:50

I found after a few years now teaching evangelism and having Done evangelism for several years

01:54:58

Is that one of the biggest? Hold -ups to that one of the biggest obstacles to actually fulfilling the great commission

01:55:05

Is we aren't? Preaching the gospel to ourselves daily If we preach the gospel to ourselves daily

01:55:14

We ourselves will be enjoying god in a way that we want other people to enjoy god, you know,

01:55:20

I I say to my Evangelism class students at biola that you're already evangelist for whatever you're enjoying

01:55:27

You know if you find a show and you say oh this show is so good Nobody has to tell you go and get other people to enjoy it too.

01:55:36

It's spontaneous. It's natural it Somebody cuts you and you believe that show you are excited to get other people excited about it

01:55:45

The same thing goes for hey, you got to hear this band this musician that album. We're all 24 -7 evangelist for whatever we're enjoying

01:55:55

And If we are enjoying god evangelism won't be so much as this tooth pulling exercise

01:56:03

It won't be a chore. It won't be a cold -hearted duty We will you cut us we believe jesus we will spontaneously

01:56:13

Talk about the fact that we were saved by grace out of our deadness and sin

01:56:19

If that's a gospel, we are preaching to ourselves on a daily basis. And so in the in the chapter

01:56:25

Elevate about the grace of jesus. I give a very practical way to do that But i've been doing myself for a few years and found enormously helpful

01:56:35

And it's preaching to ourselves What I call the abcs of the cross And if I could just in in a minute and a half here, uh run through those the abcs

01:56:46

So the a I remind myself daily that jesus is my atoner I was hostile to god

01:56:52

Jesus made me at one with him breaking down the wall of division Welcoming me in the community and friendship.

01:56:59

So I just remind myself daily a jesus is my atoner b Jesus is my battlefield hero

01:57:05

The forces of fear and evil and death held me in their oppressive grip But jesus my warrior king my battlefield hero.

01:57:13

He's crushed the enemy's head and he's claimed victory So I just pray daily jesus, thank you.

01:57:19

You're my a atoner. You're my b battlefield hero c jesus is my chain breaker

01:57:25

I was a slave to darkness and selfishness and anxiety Jesus my great liberator purchased my freedom.

01:57:32

He broke my chains. He served my death sentence D I need to remind myself every day.

01:57:38

Jesus is my defense attorney Jesus is my defense attorney. I broke the laws of an infinitely just being

01:57:44

Jesus took my death sentence. He now pleads the winning case for my innocence.

01:57:50

He pleads The winning case that he's already served my death sentence e jesus is my eternal priest.

01:57:57

I was unclean Jesus became my spotless lamb. He serves as my priest so I can stand confidently

01:58:05

In the presence of divine perfection and last but not least f the forsaken son

01:58:11

I was left to die at the human dump. Jesus has become forsaken in my place

01:58:16

So I can enjoy adoption as a cherished son or daughter of god And so there's the a b c d e f of preaching the gospel to ourselves every day

01:58:27

And once we do that, we begin to receive that grace vertically in a way that just dumps out of us

01:58:34

Horizontally and we find ourselves far more gracious to the people around us Well, praise god for that and I thank you so much for being our guest again, uh today

01:58:44

Thaddeus williams. We look forward to your return on december 8th to discuss abraham kuiper and want our listeners to know that you can

01:58:53

Find out more about the book reflect at weaver book company .com weaver book company .com

01:59:00

and you can also find out more about biola university At biola .edu

01:59:06

That's biola .edu And we look forward to your return to iron trip and xyron radio in just a matter of a couple of weeks brother

01:59:14

Looking forward to it. And I want everybody I'm, sorry, brother It's been a blast as always

01:59:20

Thank you very much And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ