July 18, 2023 Show with Joe Jacowitz & John Waldrip on “Artificial Intelligence”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 18th day of July, 2023, and I'm excited about conducting day number two of my interview with Joe Jackowitz and John Waldrop.

Joe Jackowitz is pastor of Christ Bible Church of Pleasanton, California, and founder of First Love Ministries, and it's great to have you back on the program, Pastor Joe. Are you there, Pastor Joe? For some reason, Pastor Joe is not responding to me.

I have no idea why. Pastor Joe, do you hear me? Well, let's move on to our second guest, Pastor John Waldrop of Calvary Road Baptist Church of Monrovia, California. Can you hear me, Pastor John?

Yes, sir.

Yes, sir, I can hear you.

Pastor Joe, can you hear me now?

Yes, I can.

Okay.

Yes.

I can hear you. Can you go—well, let me go back to you and have you, once again, tell our listeners about Christ Bible Church of Pleasanton, California, and First Love Ministries.

Yeah, sorry about that, Chris. I'm having a little problem with my audio, but it's a blessing to be back with you and my friend John Waldrop, and Christ Bible Church was founded in 1990, and I've been with them as the pastor since then, and we are a congregation about 35 miles east of San Francisco, situated in a place called the Tri-Valley area of the San Francisco Bay Area here in Northern California.

And also, First Love Ministries is a conglomerate of four separate ministries under the heading of First Love. We have a literature ministry, First Love Publications, in which we distribute books, booklets and tracts free of charge.

Since 2006, we've given away over 300 ,000 books all around the world. And then there's First Love Missions, where we have five branches overseas of our missions organization reaching out with the Gospel through missionaries.

And then there's First Love Radio, a 24-hour a day, seven-day-a-week radio ministry with a lot of good teaching programs and Christian music that can be heard on firstloveradio .org or can be found at firstloveministries .org on the homepage.

And the last ministry which is still under development is Grace Bible University, a free Bible college in which a Bachelor of Theology degree is under development and is about halfway.

There.

So, these four ministries can be found at firstloveministries .org, that's firstloveministries .org. If you're interested in finding a church home or you know someone who is in Northern California, you can find out more about Christ Bible Church by simply going to christbiblechurch .org.

That's christbiblechurch .org.

Well, I failed to do this yesterday, but anybody who listens to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio regularly, especially if they've been doing it for over a year, they may recognize your name because we have had public prayer requests for you, Joe.

You are a cancer survivor, and I would love for you to give our listeners an update on your health.

Well, about a year ago, I was declared cancer-free from leukemia, which I came down with about three years ago and went through chemotherapy, and then I was in remission for 16 months, which means the cancer went away, but then it came back 16 months later.

The doctors gave me a bone marrow transplant because the cancer was much more aggressive, and I've been in remission from that bone marrow transplant for two years in June, and there has been no cancer detected.

But during that time, I had a pulmonary embolism, which is simply your lungs filled with blood clots, and 30 of patients who have a pulmonary embolism die immediately. So the Lord has brought me back from near-death three times in the last three years, and so I thank Him for His grace in giving me each day.

I wake up in the morning praising Him and thanking Him for each day. God has taught me so many spiritual lessons through these three near-death experiences in the last three years, and I can't even begin to describe.

But right now, I'm cancer-free, and we're just serving the Lord each day.

Well, that is music to my ears, brother, as you know, and I am so thrilled that the prayers of God's people have been heard and God has smiled upon them, and that you are once again healthy and cancer-free.

Yeah, I want to thank your listeners and yourself as well for bringing my health needs before the throne of grace, because God has heard and answered those prayers.

Amen.

Well, now, Pastor John Waldrop, why don't you tell our listeners again about Calvary Road Baptist Church of Monrovia, California?

Amen.

Let me just mention that if people want a clearer insight into Pastor Joe's experiences, they can Google Camp Lejeune Marines, because he's one of those many members of the United States Marine Corps that was exposed to contaminated groundwater.

A number of these guys end up being my friends later on, and they're wonderful servants of God, and God has blessed them wonderfully. Calvary Road Baptist Church was started in 1975. I became the pastor in November of 1985 and have been here ever since.

Our church website is www .calvaryroadbaptist .church, and I also have a website, www .classicalbaptist .press, which features publications, books, mostly that I have written, but with things that others have written.

And Brother Joe and I had the opportunity of encountering each other, not only in Nepal on one occasion, but also at a pastor's retreat in the Bay Area, where I met him and fell in love with him, and absolutely delight in his sweet wife's chocolate chip cookies.

I'm a type 2 diabetic, and she is intent on killing me by making the best chocolate chip cookies in the world. But it's a delight to be associated with Pastor Joe and First Love Ministries.

Are the chocolate chip cookies soft or crunchy?

They are soft. They are semi-sweet chocolate, which was God's plan from the beginning.

I have always preferred soft, but anyway—oh, and tell our listeners about your upcoming trip to Ukraine.

Thank you for reminding me, Chris. Our church has been a supporter of a missions effort in Ukraine since the fall of the Soviet.

Union.

A group of pastors from the South here in the United States traveled to Eastern Europe, and they hired a young Ukrainian university student, a 19-year-old guy, to translate for them, and they went around the countryside preaching.

He told me that he noticed that as he was translating, old Ukrainian women would begin to weep, and then later, old Ukrainian men began to weep, and he began to reflect on, I probably should listen more closely to the truth that I'm translating.

Long story short, he came to Christ. He's now a successful church planter and missionary. Ukraine still has a significant-sized Jewish population. I think the largest synagogue in Europe is in his city, which is the second-largest city in the nation, and I'll be traveling there with my wife on July the 31st to participate in the ordination service of his oldest son, who I've known basically since he was born.

Very faithful ministry. They serve as chaplains in the Ukrainian military and as church planters and evangelists to the Jewish community of that nation.

Well, I will see. Go ahead.

I covet your prayers while we're there, because it's going to be, as they say, it's in a hot zone.

Yes, well, I will see if I can arrange—I don't know how far Kiev is from where you're chatting, but I will see if my friend Mykola Lelievsky, who I have interviewed on this program at least twice on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, he is not only a seminary professor in Kiev, a Reformed Baptist seminary professor, but also a pastor.

But I will see what I can do to see if it is possible for him to meet with you. And I would like to have a follow-up discussion with you when you return from that trip.

I look forward to it.

Well, let me give our listeners our email address, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Always give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence.

What Artificial Intelligence Is and Why the Bible Matters

Today we are discussing artificial intelligence, and many people have told me that any of my claims of having intelligence are artificial, but I don't think that's what you meant by it, Joe Jakubowicz.

What is artificial intelligence?

Well, artificial intelligence is the use of computer systems to perform tasks that normally require human intelligence, such as decision-making or problem-solving. But when we talk about AI, we need to remember we can either look at AI through the eyes of a scientist, a computer scientist, and understand it through his eyes, but I think most of your listeners want to understand artificial intelligence from the perspective of the Bible.

The Bible has a lot to say about what artificial intelligence is not. The Bible doesn't say pretty much anything about the specific concept of AI, but it does tell us what AI is not, and so to do that, you have to look at basic assumptions and basic teachings in the Bible, and the underlying idea that goes against artificial intelligence is that God made man in his image.

He didn't make machines, however useful they may be to mankind, in his image. And so men, including women, of course, men and women are made in God's image, and the mind and intelligence are patterned after God.

God said, let us make man in our image, according to our likeness. And so we have this beautiful gift called intelligence, and God has to make it, and it cannot be artificially produced to function in the way that God wants it to work.

And so people have human dignity and value and purpose. And so God makes us in this unique way, and any use of AI that fundamentally diminishes these aspects, these unique things that God made in our intelligence and in our soul and in our spirit, must therefore be contrary to the word of God and to the will of God.

Now, don't we have to be very careful, especially when things are in early development, that we as Christians do not overreact and involve ourselves unintentionally in eisegesis into the Scriptures and warn people about things that some of us, if not the majority of us, may in our majority wind up enjoying using and being benefited by many things that are developing in the area of technology, even the very computers that we are using to broadcast this program.

Now, I understand there's a frightening aspect of this that involves transhumanism. I don't know if a part of your study involves that.

Yes, I'm going to talk about it if I can later.

Sure, because there are areas of that that are clearly a violation of Scripture. Not all, because of course, if you were a victim of some horrible accident or a birth defect or something, and the technology provided that may involve things that are included under the umbrella of transhumanism that allowed you to walk normally and move about as an able-bodied individual and speak clearly and all the things that might be otherwise prevented by an illness or injury, we would all be praising God for this kind of development in technology under those circumstances.

But Joe, or should I say John, Pastor John, do you have anything to add about what I just said?

Yes. You know, our understanding of AI, in addition to what Pastor Joe said, which was very insightful, is against the backdrop of our culture. You know, we have the classic novel Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, which was artificial intelligence after a fashion.

I was a kid that grew up reading the works of Isaac Asimov, who started out with iRobot and the positronic brain and all of that, and the first, second, and third law of robotics. And then if those of us who are old enough will remember the Twilight Zone series created by Rod Serling, in which I can recall at least three different episodes in which artificial intelligence was the main theme, two of them featuring extremely intelligent robots, and a third one was a machine revolution against the oppression of humanity.

And then of course those younger than us will recall the Terminator series of movies starring Arnold Schwarzenegger. So we have in the back of our mind on one side what the Word of God says about intelligence and about the mind of man and us being created in the image and likeness of God, and then on the other side we have mostly by atheists the introduction of artificial intelligence in the form of books and movies having to do with technology and the advances of technology.

And so these things come together and it causes an excitement on one hand about what wonderful things we can have in this brave new world, but there, as Brother Joe said, there must be a caution because the human mind has been dramatically and drastically affected by the introduction of sin into the human race.

If I might add something, AI is very, very dangerous. Therefore, it's unthinkable unlike any other method that Christians look to and use for the glory of God or the advancement of the Gospel. We cannot look at AI as if we would look at FedEx or UPS, a shipping company whereby we ship Christian materials overseas.

Just a useful method or channel to get the Gospel out. It is not like that at all. There is an idolatrous core inherent in AI that is looking to establish a foothold in the mind and in the heart of the most well-meaning believers and church leaders that would make us reliant upon AI to do our thinking for us, to do our creative thinking for us.

But we have to remember there are critical elements of the mental and spiritual faculties that are used by God besides mere methods, whether they be computer technology like AI or anything else. And if we just rely exclusively on AI to do our thinking for us, we cut out all those other spiritual faculties that God intends to blend with intelligence to produce new life in other people and to grow new life in us.

And most people don't even discern or identify this subtle temptation when they see it. And it's very, very dangerous. I have a lot of problems with AI, especially when it comes to serving God. There's a problem when we let someone else or something else do our thinking for us.

In fact, Pastor Joe, pick up where you left off when we return from our commercial break. That there's a problem, especially as Christians, when we let AI do the thinking for us. Well, pick right up there.

And we're going to our first commercial break. Folks, if you'd like to join the conversation with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state and country of residence.

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So please go to royaldiadem .com soon and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with our guests today, Joe Jackowitz and John Waldrop, and we are discussing artificial intelligence. And if you could, Joe, right before the break we were talking about, or you were talking about, the dangers of substituting your own thoughts with thoughts that are created with artificial intelligence.

You may have pastors who begin to create sermons this way, etc. But continue. Joe, are you there? Joe Jackowitz?

I am here.

Okay. Well, if you could, pick up where you left off, please.

Well, it's one thing to use methods and means to distribute the gospel and to further the work of the Lord, like transportation companies, shipping books overseas. But when it comes to letting someone else do our thinking for us so we don't have to think through issues and we don't have to do the hard work mentally to produce sermons and to pray and other spiritual activities, that's a different thing altogether.

When artificial intelligence is such an unscriptural approach to serving God, because we don't benefit from the maturity and experience that comes with intellectual and creative development. Intellectual development does not stand by itself apart from the rest of our spiritual man, the rest of our spiritual faculties.

And so if we separate out all kinds of spiritual processes and mental processes from the character, from the spiritual part of man, we miss out on the character growth and the development of spiritual perception, the development of a spiritual worldview that only comes through working things out in our own minds with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, with the guidance of the scriptures.

And so anything separated from the whole process using the whole man and the Holy Spirit guiding and overseeing that whole process is defective. As a matter of fact, anything patterned after man in general is defective.

We can't rely on things of man, the natural man, to be trustworthy and foolproof, including artificial intelligence. AI has no soul. We have a soul, and our minds and intellectual capacities are designed to work with all the other spiritual faculties together that God has given to us.

And so we need to be very careful not to rely on AI. It's a very, very dangerous thing. You see, the Holy Spirit works through human beings that are regenerated and redeemed, not through machines or methods.

God tells us to stir up the gift that is in us, the spiritual gift. And this includes the gift of intelligence, creativity, and original thinking. Intelligence and wisdom are gifts from God. Jesus Christ became for us wisdom from God.

And we learn that in the last days, knowledge shall increase, but we need to be very, very careful with certain types of knowledge that purport to be a savior in and of itself that we become overly reliant on,.

Such as AI. Now, Pastor John Waldrop, picking up from what Joe said, Joe keeps repeating a word that may make a vital difference in this whole conversation. He keeps using the word, we must not rely upon artificial intelligence.

Now, is there a way that Christians and all of humanity can benefit from artificial intelligence if it is used for specific reasons sparingly and not relied upon? And let me give you an example. As I've said earlier on in the program, we're all using the internet to broadcast Iron Trumpet and Zion Radio, and I'm sure you too use the internet for things of your own to help further the gospel and the kingdom of God on earth.

And yet, the very computers we are using and the internet that we are benefiting from has been the cause of great satanic influence. There are apparently, and there is, I should say, an alarming number, percentage of Christians and even pastors who have become enslaved to pornography on the internet.

And you have people involved in all kinds of sexually perverse and adulterous chat rooms, and you have false religions that people are being influenced by, perhaps even bringing them to a conversion to these false religions because of the internet.

Now, obviously, just because Satan is using this tool mightily for his own kingdom of darkness doesn't mean that we should cease using it for the kingdom of Christ.

So, please, if you could respond to that. Yes, I totally agree with Brother Joe. And when he's talking about this, sometimes when we anticipate the future danger of artificial intelligence and its usefulness to us, we have to exercise not only wisdom, but humility, and it helps us to recognize what is currently the state of the art, the state of the science.

There's a term that is used by techies called the internet of things, and that is the interconnectedness of anything that has a microchip. For example, a smartphone, a smart TV, a smart appliance, smart thermostats.

Most people don't realize that newer appliances have cameras and microphones in them. Thermostats have cameras and microphones in them. Television sets have microphones and cameras in them. Smartphones cameras can be activated whether the user is aware of it or not, whether the phone is on or not.

The microphone can be activated even when the phone is turned off, and all of this is used, not even counting Siri and Alexa. The tech giants are gathering vast amounts of what they refer to as mega data.

I have read someplace in the past that there are more than a million pages of data already in place for every single person in the United States of America, and that's not even counting what's already being done in communist China with the help of our tech giants Apple and Microsoft, where they have social scoring by the Chinese Communist Party for schools and for hiring and for promotions, where they use facial recognition software and they use geolocating, and you will actually be downgraded.

Your social score will be pushed downward if you are in close physical proximity to someone that the Chinese Communist Party has tagged. So, it's possible that somebody who wants to go to university and is qualified for university will not be allowed to go to university because they live near someone who has been tagged by the CCP.

Well, if that's what's already being done with the state of artificial intelligence currently, imagine what's going to happen when it is on steroids, and the mind behind this is, I fear, not a human mind.

I fear that these seducing spirits are manipulative, and they've already demonstrated in Genesis chapter 6 their capacity to cross the threshold from the spiritual realm to the human female realm. I'm of the opinion that the sons of men in Genesis 6 were fallen angels, and if they can do that with human beings, what's to stop them from making use of physical tools in the form of artificial intelligence to provide the evil mindset behind the use of this technology?

We know, for example, that during the COVID lockdown, that the Prime Minister of Canada used the technology that was already in place to freeze the accounts and to freeze the credit cards of the truckers who had driven across the country and gathered in Ottawa, and the people who gathered to protest, he just by fiat decided to shut everything down.

And so, I think we're moving in an onerous direction, and I think we already have cause for great alarm, and we need to exercise great caution, and I think it is arrogance and pride that causes us to think that we can outsmart these spirit beings, these foul spirits that have been attacking the human race for thousands of years.

They're vastly more intelligent than we are. They're far more clever than we are. They do not tire, nor do they sleep at night when we do, and we are gullible. We are very gullible people, so we need to exercise.

Great, great caution. Pastor Joe Jakowicz, are you, and perhaps John can answer after you also, are you saying that the term and the concept of artificial intelligence is so specific and can be so meticulously pigeonholed that it is nothing but bad?

There is no benefit to it. There's no positive thing to it. There's nothing about it that Christians should utilize in any way,.

Shape, or form. Is that what you're saying? Theoretically, one might think there are positive benefits to it, but the dangers of it and the inability of people to understand it and to control its use, even in a very limited capacity, are so great and so dangerous that it's best just not to use it at all.

But when you look at it from a biblical perspective, it is one, it is going to be, and it is already, but it's going to be much more greater than it is now, a temptation that I think no one will be able to handle, no matter how disciplined they are.

So I think it's better not to get involved with it, not to be, not just reliant on it, but not even to get involved with it at all. It's an affront to God. It is going to be one of the most elevated ways idolatry will be committed in this world moving forward in the future.

And the reason why is that Christians are being bombarded with a higher level of technology that is suggestive of the infinite possibilities of the human mind. I mean, John was talking about this, and they're saying that the mind can evolve into a much higher form and level of consciousness and capabilities.

Even Elon Musk and some of his colleagues are touting the dangers and are warning the world of the dangers of AI. And these people aren't even Christians, but we have a much greater perspective on the situation when you bring in the spiritual dimension and understand there's an infinite more amount of dangers and temptations when you look at it through the spiritual temptation perspective.

But some define this evolutionary process as transhumanism. You brought this up before, which is the idea that rather than being bound by bodily limitations, a person can transcend or change into a future that transcends death by just uploading yourself or your consciousness into an AI super intelligence program, which is ridiculous, of course.