November 16, 2023 Show with M. D. Perkins on “Dangerous Affirmation: The Threat of Gay Christianity”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 16th day of November, 2023.

I am thrilled to have a first -time guest today that comes by the highest recommendations of two very dear friends of mine,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and Rosaria Butterfield, who herself is an author.

In fact, Rosaria, for many years, was enslaved to the sin and by the sin of lesbianism, and before coming to a saving faith in Christ and becoming a new creation in Christ.

And both she and Dr. White strongly urged me to interview my guest today,

M .D. Perkins, who is Research Fellow of Church and Culture for the

American Family Association, a documentarian and author, and he's going to be addressing his latest book,

Dangerous Affirmation, the Threat of Gay Christianity, and gay

Christianity is in quotes. And I am honored and privileged to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, M .D.

Perkins. Thank you, Chris. Very good to be with you today. Why don't you explain to our listeners what the

American Family Association is, also known as AFA? The American Family Association is a pro -life, pro -family ministry founded in 1977, dealing especially with morality and media and kind of the raunchiness of television at first, raising awareness about the cultural decline there and then expanding out to deal with issues of homosexuality, abortion, the gay movement to redefine marriage, and just a number of the cultural battlefronts that Christians have found ourselves in in the last 40 years or so.

And so AFA has been on the front lines of many of those battles for a long time. And some people may know the name

Donald Weilman. Don Weilman was the founder of AFA, a United Methodist minister who got bothered about these things and was moved by God to take part in it.

And so I'm part of the legacy of that. We have over 100 employees here in Tupelo.

We've got a radio network, American Family Radio. There's a number of different arms and divisions that are connected with AFA now.

But part of my job in that is just as a video producer and a researcher. Well, if anybody wants more details about the

American Family Association, go to afa .net, afa .net.

And God willing, I will remember to repeat that information toward the end of the program. And we have a tradition here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which you were raised and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Excellent.

Yeah, so I grew up here in Mississippi. I grew up in Tupelo. That's where my parents were based.

And my parents were very active Christian believers. We were part of the

PCA church, Presbyterian Church in America, here in Tupelo, Lawndale, which I'm still a part of to this day.

And so I grew up kind of cutting my teeth on a lot of R .C.

Sproul, Norman Geisler, Francis Schaeffer, that kind of apologetics material, because my parents were very impacted by some of that apologetics work early on in their faith.

And so I was raised in the Christian home, had a lot of good role models there, but the

Lord really didn't get a hold of me until I was in high school is when I believe that he really savingly was at work in my heart and regenerated me.

And it was something quite unexpected to me. I was sitting in a Thanksgiving service, actually, at our church on a

Wednesday night, not wanting to be there, but there to interact with some friends. And one of my friends was staying.

And so I was kind of feeling forced to stay a little bit and real bitter about that. And as I was real cynical in my attitudes toward toward being a part of that service and everything.

But at the end of the service, there was a simple praise song that was sung to close out the service. It was just there is a redeemer,

Jesus, God's own son, precious lamb of God, Messiah, holy one. It's a song people may remember from from the late 90s, early 2000s.

But it was was one of those songs I had sung in church a lot over my life.

And of course, sung many, many different hymns. But that night, the weight of those words, the idea of a redeemer, the idea that I needed redemption and that Christ himself came to save me and took my sin upon himself and gave me his righteousness and really redeemed my soul.

That was something that that hit me in such a profound way that evening that I went home and I just cried out to the

Lord and rejoiced and read my work, read my Bible and just was kind of was really a new person,

I believe, after that point, you know, just took took things seriously, took things differently.

And even though I was raised a very moral and religious kid and really hated to disobey because I didn't like to be thought of as a sinner or someone who broke the rules, you know, those things those things changed in me.

My attitudes and my motivations for for obeying changed as a result of what happened to me that night.

So it's been a growth in grace and sanctification since then. And I'm really thankful for how the

Lord has been at work in me and used my family and use the local church and just use some of those simple means of grace to draw me to himself.

Praise God. And how did you come to discover and embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace, also known as reformed theology?

Well, growing up in the Presbyterian Church, those things were kind of in the water, so to speak, you know, listening to a lot of R .C.

Sproul, as I mentioned. But that was I really didn't pay attention to that until kind of later in high school, early college, when

I was beginning to to think more about the contours of what what was faith and what what was theology and how did this look like and what were some of the things that were described in the

Bible. And so I would say it was particularly the ministry of of of R .C.

Sproul in particular that really grounded me in that. Of course, my parents had a lot of that material in their house, and those were some of the first books

I was really reaching for in that time after my conversion when I was really hungry for for a stronger sense of truth and a deeper clarity about what the

Bible meant and how some of these pieces fit together. Well, how did you become introduced to the

American Family Association? Well, AFA is like I said, it's found its headquarters is right here in Tupelo.

And so it was my parents were were supporters and they received the AFA Journal for many years.

And in fact, I grew up kind of scoffing at some of the things I would read in there as a teenager. But later in after I went to film school in Savannah at Savannah College of Art and Design and bounced around the independent film industry for a while in Louisiana, my wife and I and my young child eventually moved back to Tupelo just to try and reassess some things before we thought we were moving on to to something else.

And that was right in 2009 as the as the whole, you know, economy kind of crashes.

And as a as a college student without a whole lot of job experience, I was forced to to look around for some different options.

And I ended up working at Chick -fil -A. But while I was there, I was in the church that we were a part of.

Then I met a guy who was who was working at AFA and realized that they were starting to get into some film production work and particularly some documentary work.

And that was intriguing to me. But it was a it was a little bit different path than I really anticipated, you know, to take such a spiritual focus.

I really intended to be more of a secular filmmaker, I guess, with a Christian, you know, mindset and worldview underneath it.

But but through God's providence and kind of bringing those different connections together, I ended up working at AFA and and I've done multiple projects with them, including

The God Who Speaks, which is a documentary we did about the authority of the Bible and the history of scriptures and textual criticism and some things like that.

And then in his image that deals with gender and sexuality and what God has to say about that. And then our our upcoming project that deals with Don Wildman and the founding of the ministry and Christians getting involved in the culture war in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

So that's an upcoming project. But but through those projects, it led me into doing research, which is which is how

I ended up writing Dangerous Affirmation. Yes. I guess you just wanted a quiet, uncomplicated life and decided to write a book about the threat of gay

Christianity. Yeah, exactly. It was yeah, it was something

I entered into quite accidentally, I'll say, you know, working on in his image with with one of the other producers,

I came into her office and said, is there any way I can help you with some of the research and the things that you're needing to do on this project?

And she said, well, there's this whole question of gay Christianity. Could you look into it a little bit, especially the question of revoice?

And, you know, lo and behold, that was God providentially leading me into this next direction of of ministry focus that ended up consuming over two years of my life as I worked on that.

And it continues to be be a part of of how people get connected with our ministry here and some things that they're trying to work through within their own church context and things like that.

So, yeah, it wasn't something I was ever really trying to do. But as I I was initially just trying to research a lot of the the kind of doublespeak that was happening among those who were promoting the revoice ideology or side

B thinking. And I ended up writing a paper called A Little Leaven Confronting the

Ideology of the Revoice Movement, which you can find at AFA .net slash A Little Leaven. It's available there as a free download and also as an audio book.

Listen, and and from that research, then, as I shared that with some of the leadership here at AFA, they were interested in taking pieces of that as well as dealing with the gay affirming church movement and trying to paint a bigger picture of what was happening in, quote, unquote, gay

Christianity as it currently stands, because they felt like there needed to be an updated work that really delved into some of the particulars of that movement.

Now, I think that some definitions are warranted here because there are no doubt some folks within the body of Christ who are sheltered enough that they don't even know what you're talking about when you mention revoice, when you mentioned side

B Christianity. In fact, a lot of this also became a part of my orbit of awareness very recently myself.

And in fact, I don't know if you are aware, but I just recently I just recently organized a debate, a live public moderated debate between Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. Gregory Coles, and Gregory Coles identifies as a gay

Christian and identifies himself in the side

B realm of that. And for our audience who is unaware of that terminology or unfamiliar with it, and you, of course, can fill in some of the holes in this very brief definition.

But from what I understand, side B Christianity is basically, if you want to sum up the core essence of it, because I'm sure there is disagreement that exists amongst people who claim to be a part of that movement, but these are people who believe, as you and I do, as conservative

Bible -believing Christians who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, they believe that homosexuality, when physically acted upon and even when abused through lust, is a sinful way of thinking and behaving.

And from what I understand, at least according to Dr. Gregory Coles, he would agree with us that sex is, as the

Bible teaches, only to be enjoyed between one man married to one woman.

But the difference lies in, it is a very serious difference, as to identity, to continue to perpetuate an identity where you publicly claim to be a gay

Christian. And perhaps you could pick up where I left off there. Yeah, absolutely. That is the key distinction there from what side

A would be, which is the gay -affirming church movement. You think of a pride flag on a mainline church building, that kind of thing, open and affirming statements being used.

And then the side B position, which is a more conservative viewpoint on it, but it still has some key distinctions in there that are troubling.

And that's what people like Dr. James White and Rosaria and others like myself have tried to point out.

It's that identity component. And that is something that people treat as if it's theologically neutral or even advantageous in some cases.

That's what Dr. Coles claimed in that debate, that there's an advantage sometimes that can be there evangelistically for him to identify himself as a gay

Christian, so that he can say that God is actually for you as a gay person.

And even though he kind of hedges that in a number of different ways, there's still a lot of troubling aspects to that, that a believer, someone who's indwelt by the

Holy Spirit of the living God, would be willing to take on such a sinful identity marker as some kind of, not just a way of describing personal experience, as is often claimed, that's usually what they say when people start to criticize it.

But really, once you start to hear the way that these guys talk about it, there's so much enjoyment and identifying with that idea, mindset, behavior.

Because homosexuality, as we're defining terms here, I mean, homosexuality is more than just engaging in sodomy or the homosexual behavior.

It is a desire. It is a way of relating to others of the same sex.

It is a way of thinking about yourself. It is a way of self -identity, and then therefore group identity.

And it also takes up certain political aspirations and agenda items.

And it includes things like how you dress, how you speak, and how you present yourself, having some sort of gay calling card.

A lot of those things are tied up in it, and they can take all kinds of individualistic ways in which they're worked out.

But all of those things are kind of tied together in this rather complicated package, and that's part of what makes homosexuality such a complex topic to discuss, is that people are often thinking about one aspect of that, whereas other aspects are always tied to and implied by that.

So yeah, side B is a lot of focus on identity, a lot of focus on language, and really it's kind of a discipleship movement,

I would say, in that they're really concerned about how the church is treating them individually and then others who identify as LGBT in some way.

And so they are very critical of the way that the church historically, as well as still today, is treating those who identify as homosexual and saying that, and really wanting to move beyond any sort of language of change or shift of desire, those kinds of things, lessening temptation.

They really don't want to define in very clear terms what the work of the Spirit might look like in terms of them and their relationship with homosexuality.

So there's a real distance and pushback to things called the ex -gay movement and how they kind of dismissively have described it as pray away the gay and that kind of thing.

So anyway, there's a lot of additional connection points there that people may have questions about.

But yeah, that's some additional thoughts on side B. And I strongly urge everybody listening to, at some point, go to YouTube and type in James White versus Gregory Coles, and you can see the entire debate that I mentioned that they had.

And it was very clear that Dr. Coles does not believe that his innate identity as a homosexual has any problem with his walk with Christ or his standing before God.

He does not believe he has anything to repent of in that sense. He said only if his identity as a gay man leads him to lust, that's the only time, or of course even full -blown physical activity, that's the only time where this would be an offense to God.

And I think Dr. James R. White really hit the nail on the head during a crucial time of cross -examination where Dr.

Coles really did not have an answer for this. When the classic passage in 1

Corinthians chapter 6 came up, and Dr.

White was citing Paul's words, or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Some of you, some were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ in the spirit of our God. The key issue in that that Dr.

White was highlighting was nor the covetous, because it was basically the same realm of sin that Dr.

Coles was claiming was completely innocuous and harmless and non -offensive to God because of the fact that there was no lust through fantasy, no physical consummation of the desire, whereas Dr.

White said, well, what about covetousness? Covetousness is not an action.

It leads to actions, just as you were admitting that a homosexual identity could lead to lust and physical sexual activity, but the sin of being covetous is a state of heart and mind.

You want to pick up on that? Yeah, that's an excellent point for two reasons.

One, because covetousness is a good correlation to how these guys are typically using the word homosexuality or the word gay, which is just kind of an expression of how they feel, and it's also really good because it highlights the fact that covetousness is actually a key component of the homosexual identity.

So much of it is based on a desire to do something that is closed off from you.

I mean, one of my early explanations of this was that, well, you can talk about committing adultery in the commandments, but what does it mean to covet your neighbor's wife?

I mean, obviously that could be sexualized, but specifically there, there's no sexual component to it, but there's a desire for something that the

Lord has not given to you, that the Lord has actually closed off from you, and it's not available to you. You are not free to desire this in any sort of major way, but that is a component of this homosexual tendency in the way that it's being described, and one of the ways that I would say that the

Side B movement has been so dangerous and confusing among evangelicals in particular is by the introduction of the word attraction into this conversation.

Now, once you say the word attraction, you're talking about something that's really rather elusive and hard to define.

Is it talking about temptation? If we're trying to find a spiritual corollary, a biblical corollary, is it temptation?

Well, people would say, no, it's just kind of recognizing something else as desirable or interesting or beautiful or whatever.

Okay, well, that really doesn't have an immediate biblical component, so therefore we can kind of define that however we want with whatever rubric and understanding we have from our own experience or from sociology or anything else, and so it's really free from any of the scriptures indictments or direction on anything that we would think about that, but if you think about covetousness as it's tied to attraction, suddenly it takes on a different component where if you are attracted, if you are a attracted to another man, you are desiring something that God has not offered to you.

There's no way that that could ever be fulfilled in a meaningful way besides just friendship, but if it's just friendship, then you wouldn't describe it as attraction in the same kind of way that we're using that word attraction, so there's a lot of doublespeak.

There's a lot of nuance within the language there, but I would say that the introduction of that word attraction has created a whole lot of confusion because people immediately think of a teenager going through puberty, recognizing the opposite sex, or all of those desires inherently wicked just because he desires sexual intimacy with another woman and that kind of thing, and that's immediately what's placed there, and then it's placed in its most innocent form and assumed that the most innocent form is taking place there, but I tried to look at what these guys actually said about it, guys like Grant Hartley and guys like Greg Johnson, who was a

PCA pastor. He's not in the PCA anymore because he left, but when he was being questioned by some of the leaders of his presbytery about what he described as same -sex attraction, he talked about his heart being moved, or rather,

I'm sorry, he actually said, my heart melts when a good -looking man enters the room. Now, I don't know about you, but if I were to describe another woman entering the room as my heart melting and describe that to my wife and then say that nothing really bad has taken place there,

I haven't really sinned, there's nothing to repent of there, that would not go very well for me, because it's very clear that whatever is going on there, it is inordinate, and it goes well beyond what

God would intend for your heart to respond to a situation of someone else entering the room. Absolutely right, and we have to go to our first commercial break right now.

If anybody has a question for M .B. Perkins, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, and if you have a personal and private question, we will permit you to ask anonymously, because this kind of subject, it's a no -brainer that it could provoke some very personal and private questions from listeners who are dealing with this subject in one form or another, whether it's somebody who themselves are struggling with homosexuality, or if it's a parent of someone who is either struggling or has fully given themselves over to this sin, it could be a whole host of things that would compel you to remain anonymous, and we will respect that request if it is personal and private.

But if it's a general question, please, again, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence, don't go away, we're going to be right back after these matters of...

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We're now back with my guest today MD Perkins and MD and I are discussing his new book which every

Christian should have in their possession, Dangerous Affirmation the Threat of Gay Christianity.

Once again our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com. Chrisorensen at gmail .com

gives his first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And we have a question I was going to hold off a little on taking the questions from listeners but there was one that really

I think is most beneficial to have you answer right away.

We have Brenda in Culpeper, Virginia who says you mentioned Side A Christianity.

Is that a part of your book as well and if you could explain that in further depth? Yeah, so the distinction there between Side A and Side B is really about how people are connecting with the overall means to reconcile the

Christian faith with homosexuality. That's what I say. So gay Christianity is the overall attempt to reconcile the

Christian faith with homosexuality and that can take a number of different forms. We spend a lot of time on the

Side B side, the more conservative side. Side A is for those who say that they believe that God ordains homosexuality, that he blesses it, that a gay marriage is something that God would encourage those who identify as homosexual to pursue and to live out the homosexual lifestyle is not a sin.

There's nothing wrong about that. There's nothing to be ashamed of. There's nothing to repent of. And so that's become more and more the mainstream position really, not only in the mainline churches, but just around the world with the way that people are thinking and talking about homosexuality.

Whenever you hear somebody talk about homosexuality, typically in a mainstream media setting, if they ever have a

Christian, it will usually be someone who's espousing this position. And so the

Side A position can be nuanced to the point of people saying that they're, well,

I'm just waiting, a man saying, I'm just waiting for the right man and I'm kind of saving myself for him.

Or it can be someone who is actively living the homosexual lifestyle, having multiple partners, not really seeking out marriage, but believing that God just blesses and endorses this because God made me gay and he can't change.

He's not going to change me. I'm just a reflection of God's diversity and creation. And so that's really what the

Side A position is. And I do talk about it in Dangerous Affirmation. I make a distinction between the gay affirming movement, the gay celibate movement, as we were just talking about in Side B, and then queer theology.

And so I kind of tease out all three of those threads and talk about the different ways that each of those approaches tries to dismantle what the

Bible teaches on this and try to give Christians an understanding of what they're talking about, why they come to that position, and how do you refute it biblically?

So that's what Dangerous Affirmation is all about. Well, Brenda, guess what? You have just won a free copy of Dangerous Affirmation, thanks to our friends at the

American Family Association. Please provide your full name and mailing address in Culpeper, Virginia, and we will have cvbbs .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, ship that book out to you. And let us know if you are a first -time questioner, because all of our first -time questioners also receive brand new

New American Standard Bibles. Let me ask you a question about this Side A.

Are they uniformly in agreement that monogamy is essential if they are going to live out a homosexual life and claim to be obedient followers of Christ?

No, they're not uniformly in agreement about monogamy. That's what Kyle was kind of alluding to there.

Yeah, there's some difference of opinion on that. Kind of the main guys that people might run across, like Justin Lee and Matthew Vines, have really emphasized monogamy as opposed to, you know, just profligate living and having a lot of multiple partners and that kind of thing is the kind of the stereotype of the homosexual community.

But that is not a position, that's a position that they argue for as kind of a means to get in the door, because it sounds so innocent and genuine, and it just sounds like just the gay version of what we would tell our youth, just wait for the right person, try and make it a relationship that will really last, and then you come together and you can honor

Christ there. That's their approach to get their foot in the door in conservative churches, but that is not the universal opinion of most.

From what I've read of a lot of the gay -affirming literature, most of it doesn't have any real care about whether someone is monogamous or not.

Wow. Now, would these be people who profess to be evangelical? Yes. Sadly, there is.

Some of them do profess to be evangelical. A lot of them are just your more mainline Protestants and those who are kind of on the fringes of church attendance or your metropolitan community church kind of folks.

For those who don't know, Metropolitan Community Church was the first gay -affirming church officially established by homosexuals for homosexuals.

Of course, anybody can attend, but it was really established in the late 1960s as a way of having a place for those people who identified as gay or lesbian who wanted to participate religiously and specifically

Christian religiously to have a space to do that as an out and proud homosexual.

So that church has a number of locations across the country and world, and they've never really—I guess there's some of them that would call themselves evangelical from some perspectives.

It's a weird term that some people have a connection with and other people don't.

So some do profess to be evangelicals, while others would just say that they're more generally

Christian or religious, but they go to a

United Church of Christ church or something and that kind of thing. We have an anonymous listener in Pennsylvania who says,

I am the father of a daughter who is living out a lesbian life, and what hurts me so deeply is that whenever I try to evangelize her and let her know in love and compassion that the way she is living is a path to hell, she immediately stops the conversation, threatens to leave, and warns me never to bring up the subject again in a negative way.

I am heartbroken. I am confused. I don't know what to do. I feel as if if I don't say these things to her,

I am being a disobedient Christian. Well, this is the experience of many parents with children who have identified as gay or lesbian or transgender, and it's a heartbreaking situation, obviously.

And part of what's heartbreaking about it is that there is an element of manipulation that's usually taking place there on the part of the child to hold the parent up to this impossible standard and also to heavily scrutinize anything that the parent would say or the tone of voice or any particular way that the parent might think through or try and reason or respond to the child's statements.

But you know, there's all kinds of ways in which a parent can approach the situation, of course.

And I mean, it's about following the Holy Spirit's leading in that, too, as you are trying to be faithful to what the

Lord is really leading you into in terms of what you would say more specifically or directly.

I do believe that there's a time sometimes in these relationships where you've said the things that need to be said, and the child knows where you stand, and so sometimes there's times for silence and for sitting back and for listening and for waiting to see what the next steps are as the child, you know, responds to those things.

I mean, these are very challenging and pastorally difficult situations to even navigate parents through.

I have a number of friends who are involved in these kinds of ministries who really counsel parents on how to speak to their child, how to think about things themselves so that they're equipped to approach some of these situations, and they feel like they have a good foundation point and things to stand on as they come into these conversations with their child.

But you know, for the most part, I mean, part of what's so challenging, I think, is that the child who is taking on this identity has been living this internal life for a long time and has been going to a lot of other sources outside of the parents for all of this wisdom and insight and guidance, and sometimes friends are involved, sometimes just, you know, anonymous relationships on the internet are involved.

It's hard to know exactly where all of these things are coming from. Some of it's just a general sense from pop culture, social media, and those kinds of things, but they've been discipled in all of these different ways, and then they come to the parent and they just drop everything on the table, and then they expect or they demand some kind of affirming and gentle response when the parent either sometimes didn't even see this coming or B, is just trying to work through it on their own emotional and relational way.

And so there is great opportunity, obviously, for every believer to sit in those situations sometimes by our own arrogance or pride or our own hurt and woundedness, so those are things worth examining oneself on as always, but there is a lot of manipulation that takes place, too, and that's the tragic part is that the parents are usually held to the standard that will never be met, and there's a very specific script that a parent's supposed to give back, and if they don't, then they are kind of being coached and counseled to cut off communication, to leave the house, to, you know, do all these things to really kind of punish the parents for how they have responded.

Well, Anonymous, you have also won a free copy of Dangerous Affirmation, so please, if you'd like to receive this free copy, email us your full name and mailing address.

Obviously, we will not divulge that information to anyone else, and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

will ship out to you a free copy of this book, and if you're a first -time listener, you'll also get a free

New American Standard Bible. We have another Anonymous listener, this time the mother of a practicing homosexual, and the

Anonymous listener says, I am racking my brains and praying to God to reveal to me what

I have done wrong in the raising of my child, who lives in rebellion against God as a homosexual.

I am thinking I must have done something wrong in this child's upbringing, but it never comes to mind.

Are all parents, in at least some way, guilty when their children grow up to behave this way and believe this way?

Well, this is a very common response that I also hear from a number of parents, is that feeling of guilt that you've some way contributed to this, and of course, that's another area where we can examine ourselves and kind of look and say, well,

I mean, we could contribute to all kinds of ways that our children rebel against the Lord, or are not as faithful, or they develop the same kind of sin patterns and tendencies that we have, or we have an anger issue, and so that gets manifest in the child because they've lived under seeing our responses so often and kind of lived under the weight of that for a long time.

But in a lot of situations, I don't think it's a time for the parent to self -assess to the point of being so guilt -ridden that you're just, that you feel like you have no hope and that there's nothing that can be done, and that you've ruined everything, and whatever is there is a result of your own doing.

And even though we would say that homosexuality is not something that's inborn in the person, we would say that it's something that's somehow cultivated, but when we say that it's cultivated, that doesn't mean that parenting is always the direct thing that contributed to that.

I mean, oftentimes, there's aspects of personality that are there that open up someone to those kinds of temptations.

Oftentimes, there's things that are going on in friendship relationship dynamics and things like that, or feelings of inferiority, or wrong relating to the same sex.

I mean, some people have tried to describe this and define it so definitively as a problem in relating to the parent, and sometimes that's there, and sometimes there's a number of other factors that are there, and the child wrapped up in the temptations of the world and the lust of the flesh begins to give in to other things and pushes out beyond what the parent would have ever said or done or anything like that.

And so, I think there's a lot of things like that. So, I would just comfort this listener and say that, obviously,

I don't know the specifics of your situation, but there are a number of things that happen well beyond a parent's control that the child takes up under their own mindset and under their own desires, and they give themselves over to it, and the more that they do, the more resistant they come to what the parent would say about it, and the parent is left with a lot of guilt and shame about their own things that they've done and their own inadequacies.

I mean, we all see our own failings as parents, and I'm certainly not minimizing the fact that that exists within us too, but there's also a time for comfort and resting in the sovereign work of Christ that goes well beyond what you can do as a parent and just continue to lay the child before the

Lord and to trust God for the results of that. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program, is required by the FCC to use a portion of this program to geographically localize

Iron Sharp and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, where they're located, so they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things that they air in the middle of our show.

We, on the other hand, simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. Please use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can.

Also, send in your questions to M .D. Perkins, to Chris Arnsen at gmail .com. We'll be right back.

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I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, and I highly recommend this show, but today

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Give us your first name, at least city and state, and country of residence. And we have

Kai, K -A -I, in Keokuk, Iowa. I don't know if I've pronounced that incorrectly,

K -E -O -K -U -K. He wants to know, I need to hear more about this revoice that you brought up, and did this not come out of the very denomination in which you are a member?

Yes. So the revoice conference was something that was hosted at Memorial Presbyterian Church.

It was a PCA church in the heart of St. Louis in the summer of 2018.

And yeah, the revoice movement is something that has a lot of ties to the

PCA, and very sadly so, and that's been a battleground within our denomination now for several years.

As the situation has come up. So the roots of it, though, as we were alluding to earlier with the discussion of Side B, is this gay identity.

And so really where this conference started, in 2017, a group of evangelical leaders made up mostly of people who were connected with Gospel Coalition, but several others from other aspects of the

Christian evangelical world, came together to produce something called the Nashville Statement.

And this was a very basic statement of Christian doctrine and belief regarding sexuality and marriage.

And this statement, within one of its articles, mentioned that to take on a homosexual or transgender identity would be counter to God's intention in creation and would be counter to what

God would intend, something to that effect. And this, that particular article within that Nashville Statement, was received very poorly, we'll say, by several men who labeled themselves as gay

Christians who were connected with different evangelical ministries.

So specifically, Nate Collins, who was, he had come through Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, and then a guy named

Stephen Moss, who came through Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis, PCA Seminary, and then

Wesley Hill, who was a, I guess he's an Anglican, and he was one of the first to write a memoir called

Washington Waiting in 2010 that talked about him being a gay Christian but remaining celibate because he believed that it would be wrong for him to pursue a homosexual relationship, even though he really desired to do that.

And so they were very frustrated over this, over this Nashville Statement that was issued.

And so in direct response to that, I mean, Nate Collins said as much in an interview he did leading up to the

Revoice movement, into the first Revoice conference in 2018, there was a desire to have this group, this different approach in thinking about homosexuality within, among those who profess to be evangelical and conservative in their theology, but also identified as gay or were, it felt like the evangelical church had not done a very good job on this.

They wanted to create an event that was primarily for them. And so that's what happened there with the

Revoice conference in 2018. So historically that's what happened with the release of that conference.

And then since then, there's only been an increase in confusion as Christians have tried to understand exactly what are, what are people saying about this?

What are the implications of these things that are being said? And as I mentioned earlier, the introduction of that word attraction,

I think is really kind of the linchpin of that whole problematic and confusing way of thinking about things.

So yeah, sadly it does tie into the Presbyterian Church in America. It also ties into the

Southern Baptist Convention, but many other Christians in other denominational contexts,

Church of the Nazarene and others have been impacted by the teaching of this movement because it's very insidious.

It comes in and it presents to be a more, it presents to be a softer third way of dealing with the homosexual question in a way that is not nearly as off -putting as what is termed to be the fundamentalist response, which is just, you know, the basic biblical teaching on it.

So they think that there's a space that needs to be created there for more empathetic thinking on this and that that should be expressed in language and in posture.

And so you need to change your posture and your tone in regards to this, and you need to step back from any sort of saying that there's any cultural problem with this.

You need to deal with it more on an individual level, and on the individual level, rather than say anything directly, you just need to sit down and listen and to be shaped by the thoughts and experiences of this other person who calls themselves gay.

And so that's kind of the legacy of the Revoice movement up to this point. Now, what is the current state of the

PCA in regard to this movement? Have all of its advocates left the

PCA? Are there men who are still pastors of congregations that affirm the model and ideology and worldview of Revoice, and perhaps even entire congregations that are standing firm on this that are still in the

PCA? Yeah, so that's one of the interesting things that's happened in the five years, or now almost six years, since Revoice first happened.

The big focal point of all this was around Greg Johnson, whose church there in St.

Louis hosted that first conference. Now, when that first conference was hosted in 2018, Greg Johnson was just a single guy who was a pastor of the church, but then in 2019, it comes out,

I mean, like directly, he comes out as a homosexual in the pages of Christianity Today, and then a lot of things erupt within the

PCA church regarding those statements and what does he mean by that, and through the course of that, he has decided to leave, although he did leave in good standing, so that's unfortunate that there wasn't any more clear disciplinary action there.

Some of that's tied up in the specifics of the polity of how he was charged and things like that, so, you know, there's some church politics involved in all of that, but he has left, and his congregation has left, and one of the other big promoters,

Scott Sauls, for things unrelated to this, has recently resigned of his position at Christ Prez in Nashville, and so those were kind of the two big promoters of this, but it was promoted from a number of different vantage points around the

PCA, and that was always the complication, is people meant different things by it, and it was hard to really sometimes get to the bottom of what someone's real commitment was, whether it was just this general sensibility of wanting people to be nicer to those who call themselves homosexuals, or whether the church should have some kind of outreach or something related to that, or whether we should be doing pastoral work related to that.

That was never the question of the critics. The question of the critics was all about, you know, the compromises that this made in terms of biblical doctrine, the ways that this misled people regarding sanctification, the ways that this treated identity and identification among those who were pastors as well as just lay people as well, and so, yeah,

I would say that there's probably still a decent contingent of people within the PCA who would be,

I would say, agreeable toward revoiced ideology, although they've certainly been driven more to silence and to not openly flaunt their ideas as much as they were in 2019 and 2020.

And a lot of this is inseparably tied to a question that has even those who are opposed to side

A and side B not in full agreement. The issue is, when, at what point does a pastor, a biblical counselor, or just a dedicated loving brother or sister in Christ, say to someone who is struggling with homosexuality,

I believe that you need to truly evaluate in prayer whether or not you are truly born again?

I mean, when does that ever come into the discussion when it comes to this sin? Well, that's a great question, and that's one of those fundamental things that I brought out in the paper,

A Little Leaven, that I alluded to earlier. You can get it at afa .net forward slash A Little Leaven for a free download of that paper, but it deals with the revoiced movement.

But one of the questions was this willingness among those who were in the side

B movement to lock arms with those in the side A movement and to find a real sense of camaraderie around a shared identity as homosexuals who were also religious, but never a question of what does that really mean?

What does it mean for God to have worked in you, and is there ever a point of self -examination that would cause you to question or wonder about the genuineness of the

Christian faith when you were holding on to this sinful identity marker? And let's be honest, it's not just a sinful identity marker.

I mean, within that, there's so many levels of pornography use, and the mind that's being given over, and secret accommodations are being made very often.

And so what I've seen is for those who are genuinely struggling, and they're genuinely submitting themselves to the

Lord, that over time, their desire to cling to that identity marker lessens, and they either want to jettison it altogether, or they don't want to think about homosexuality that much, or they don't want to be a speaker or somebody who's constantly dealing with the subject matter.

They just want to go live a normal life. And so that's what

I see among those who seem to be genuinely connecting with, to be genuinely growing and being sanctified, whereas those who aren't,

I see a real digging into the heels, which I can only assume is because there's different roots there, that they're growing from different soil.

And so I would caution anyone who wants to really cling to those identity markers to really question why.

What really is the root desire there? What really is gained by saying that I'm a gay

Christian? And I mean, you can explain it away in all kinds of ways, and you can find people who would agree with you, but before God, why would you want to do that?

Why would you, as a child of the King, want to be so identified with a particularly ensnaring sin pattern that you would want to take on that identity marker?

I just don't see how a genuine child of God would really take that on and be able to sustain that over an entire life, without becoming just,

I mean, it's the sort of thing that leads you to bitterness and anger, because it's always a thinking about yourself.

It all turns inward. There's a lot of covetousness involved, as I mentioned earlier. There's a lot of pride, self -righteousness, arrogance.

There's a lot of bitterness that's at root within homosexuality. These are things that people don't talk about because they just,

Christians tend to think about just the sexual component of it, but there's a lot of emotional and relational brokenness that's there in the minds of those who identify in this way, and to not really deal with that, you can't really overcome much.

And so, without dealing with that, people have said, well, I can't overcome because I prayed and God didn't change me instantly, and it's one of those things where it's like, well,

God doesn't change a lot of things instantly, but what are you really willing to give up to follow Christ? I mean, that's always their big statement.

It's like, look at all that I'm giving up to follow Christ. I'm giving up a sexual partner. I'm giving up marriage and all that, and you're like, well, you didn't have to give up marriage, but you're giving up marriage that you want.

You didn't have to give up a sexual partner. You're giving up the sexual partner that you want because you want someone who's of the same sex, and so there's a lot ensnared within that, and that doesn't mean that everybody who struggles with homosexuality has to go get married to the opposite sex, and then all of their struggles are going to end.

I'm not saying that at all, but what I am saying is to completely close that door is something that opens you up to deeper temptations and allows you to continue to identify in this way and to kind of be set in that pattern of temptation.

Now, isn't a lot of the problem with those that advocate some form of homosexuality, even those that would insist so -called gay

Christians must remain celibate, or marry a woman, or if they are a woman, marry a man, marry somebody of the opposite sex, even though that would not be their preference?

There are people who have done that. Isn't one of the problems by many in this movement, or movements plural, the failure to admit that heterosexual lust is an abuse of a gift from God, whereas there is no form of homosexuality that could be considered a gift from God?

And it was very painfully obvious in the debate that James White had with Greg Coles that he was refusing to see that distinction.

He was basically equating the sin of homosexuality with heterosexual sin, and that there was no difference.

And he even blatantly declared that there was something about innately and inherently being homosexual that was a gift from God to him.

Not that he was to be physically involved in it or lusting over it, but it gave him benefits in this life that helped his walk with Christ, because he was not succumbing to the bombardment of sexual imagery that would be predominantly appealing to men, because it would involve women.

Now, I don't even know if in this day and age there is more female immodesty, but that was basically what he was claiming.

But isn't there a danger of not admitting that there's something uniquely wrong with homosexual sin?

And of course, every sin, no matter how small we think it is, will send us to hell without being covered by the blood of Christ.

But at the same time, aren't there differences? Yeah, this is one of those questions that I think a lot of conservatives have kind of failed in their response on, because we do recognize the overall big picture that all sin, any sin, is able to hold you accountable before God.

And so in that sense, all sins are equal. But in terms of the actual implications regarding certain sins and the ensnaring nature of certain sins,

I mean, all sins are not equal in that sense. As Robert Gagnon says, it's a far different scenario from stealing a pen from the office and committing murder against somebody.

Both sins are equal in terms of they are eternally sins against an eternal

God, but they are not equal sins in terms of its implications on another person, its implications on society, its ensnaring nature towards you, all of these different things.

And so I think what's interesting to me is that in Romans 1, when Paul deals with the whole question of homosexuality, well,

I say he deals with it, he's actually bringing it up as an illustration of the decline of mankind as he embraces idolatry and uses it as an illustration.

But when he's doing that, he doesn't bring it up as against the law. He brings it up as against nature.

Now, homosexuality is certainly against God's law, but there's an element there that Paul is laying into of the idea that these things should be evident to a lost and dying world that they are against God, because by their very nature, they are against nature itself.

This is not a normal pattern of relating. This is not something that you would just expect to see if you're just observing human society and animal life and all of these sorts of things.

Now, people can always find the exceptions to those rules, but the main idea there is that it's against nature.

And there's also a dishonorable passion that is at work there that people are giving themselves over to.

And so if you're going to minimize the against nature part of it,

I think you're getting yourself into a little bit of trouble because it keeps you from being able to fully articulate the fact that these things should be recognized just from a common grace,

God's light in nature sort of way, and we could call it natural law as well.

But these things are evident, and they should be evident, and they are an abomination on that front as well, not even to go so far as to actually get into the

Levitical law and things like that. So yeah, I mean, and there's a real hesitancy

I've noticed among those, especially on the side B, and we can focus there because the side A guys kind of reject all of this anyway, but the side

B guys are still trying to hold to some kind of evangelical orthodoxy or the semblance of it anyway. But when you hear them talk, they always are very dismissive of Romans 1.

They don't want to hear much about it. They don't want to hear any exposition about it because they act like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we already know this.

But I've never heard them actually acknowledge the against nature part of Romans 1.

Maybe one of them has, and I just missed it, but I'm pretty sure, and I've read a lot of them, they generally don't go there.

They don't talk about what does that mean, and why is this degrading at its very root in nature as a passion?

You know, that Greek word for passion, pathos, is just a feeling that the mind suffers. So even if you're claiming some kind of homosexual orientation, which is what they claim, and you're saying that, well, you didn't choose this directly as like a form of sexual fantasizing and lust or whatever, but a feeling that your mind suffers can still be degrading in itself.

It can still be dishonorable toward God. It can still be something that leads you to think less of God and of others because of the hold that it has on you, and its very nature as a degrading sin in itself.

And so that's something that I think Christians need to be mindful of. I mean, just spending some time in Romans 1 and really examining what is being articulated there is something that is beneficial as you wrestle with some of these questions, or you deal in conversations with those who are on the opposing side, because those are things that God intends to use to actually draw people to repentance and conviction.

We have Tito in Issaquah, Washington, who says,

Do you have any thoughts on what may cause homosexuality other than the fact that we are born sinners?

I know that there were parents earlier who submitted questions who seemed to be beating themselves up and blaming themselves, but should we even delve into the question of what may be causing this?

I think it's worth considering what causes homosexuality. That's still a question that it's hard to get clear answers on because certainly the secular world has no interest in really seriously and truthfully examining that question.

So you will find secular psychologists who offer the entire spectrum of answers, or used to, because now the statement politically is that homosexuality is innate and immutable, that you're born that way and it doesn't change, they don't really want to define where that would come from.

But even though there have been genetic tests and studies that have shown that there's absolutely no way to predictively determine based on someone's genetics whether they will pursue homosexual living or pursue heterosexual living and those sorts of things.

So there's certainly an element of human autonomy within that,

I would say. In terms of what are the causes, what are some of the things that bring this about?

Well, even as I don't want to lay heavy burdens on parents, there is an aspect of parenting that can sometimes be there, or an aspect of the way that a child relates to a parent through things that were subconscious on the part of the parent or the child toward one another, where the child, oftentimes we hear about men who relate to their fathers and they felt like their father was a very masculine man.

The child had a more sensitive disposition, was more interested in, you know, coloring or art or something, wasn't as interested in kind of the more quote -unquote masculine activities like, you know, sports or, you know, athletics or, you know, really hard labor or those sorts of things.

And so always felt inadequate, never felt a sense of real love and connection with the adult father in that sense.

And so that in connection with other things, because it's never just an isolated thing.

I mean, human beings are incredibly complex, and the ways that sin is at work in us is incredibly complex.

And the ways that we respond to sin within us, or the ways that we respond to temptation, or the ways that we respond against getting sinned against.

My friend, Stephen Black, who wrote the book, or wrote the forward to my book, Dangerous Affirmation, Stephen Black is a former homosexual, and he talks about his life growing up, and how he was a kid who had a father in that vein who seemed very masculine, very stern, kind of military upbringing.

And he didn't seem to have that same connection and camaraderie with his dad. And then when he was at school, he found himself feeling at odds from a lot of the other boys.

And then he found he often got picked on and made fun of because he didn't get along with that peer group.

And then people started to, you know, hurl insults at him, like sissy and queer and that sort of thing.

And that was very wounding for him. And then he was also sexually abused by a neighbor when he was eight years old.

And so you put all of those things together within a heart that's darkened because he doesn't belong to God.

And you can see how the temptation to start to think of yourself, well, maybe I am different. Maybe I am gay.

Maybe this explains what's wrong with me or why I feel different. And so that's what a lot of this is, is this attempt to try and explain, like, why do

I feel different than it? Why do I feel like I don't connect or I don't fit? And this is why it's such a, this is why it's running like wildfire through especially preteen and high school age kids, is because, like, as a teenager, you're already dealing with a lot of those identity type questions anyway.

And so, you know, once you add in some life experiences that may seem to, you know, endorse that kind of sentiment, and now there's also some social capital that comes from coming out as gay or lesbian or trans, you know, those things start to come out more and more.

So, yeah, people also don't want to talk about sexual abuse being there. It's not there in every single case.

I think it was certainly there in the cases earlier on years ago, but more and more now there's a lot of social conditioning that goes on with that too.

And listen, who do you want to listen to as a child? Do you want to listen to friends? Do you, you know, where do you feel accepted and affirmed?

And so, all of those things mix together. And so, I think there's different paths probably for different people, but I think everyone who has come through homosexuality and has come to faith in Christ and honestly looks back and reflects on it would be able to find certain connection points in all of those different things that I've said.

Well, we have to go to our final break, and if you would like to join those who are already waiting to have their questions asked and answered, send in your email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back. Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur.

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We are now back with our final segment with M .D. Perkins, and we do have

Kira in Ellesmere, Delaware, and Kira asks,

I have heard that there are profound differences between the phenomenon of being a male homosexual and a lesbian.

Is that true? That's an interesting question because I asked the very same question from the audience when

I was recently at a local church here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, that featured a speaking engagement by Patti Height, who is the founder of Out of Egypt Ministries.

She is a wonderful sister in Christ, formerly enslaved by lesbianism and gender confusion, and she has no same -sex desires anymore.

She's totally and radically and vociferously opposed to this Side B nonsense, and I really benefit.

And by the way, if you want to look up my interview with her, go to ironsharpensironradio .com and type into the search engine

Patti, which is spelt with an I, Height, H -E -I -G -H -T. And also, don't forget about my interviews with Rosaria Butterfield and Dr.

James R. White on this subject. But what would you say to our listener,

Kira, in Ellesmere, Delaware? Yeah, I'm familiar with the differences between male homosexuality and female homosexuality, and those who have engaged in those practices do speak to some distinctions being there.

I wouldn't say that they're radically different. I would say that the focus of them is different.

Male homosexuality tends to focus a lot on sexual performance and the sexual side, and female homosexuality tends to focus a lot on the relational side.

And so with that is also what's ensnaring about each of those, because women who seek out a lesbian partner or envision themselves, see themselves as being lesbians typically got there through some kind of female relationship or the feeling of lack of relationships and those things being really major components in the formation there.

And it's interesting too, I remember reading some stats about domestic abuse being very high within lesbian relationships in particular, but they express themselves differently.

The domestic abuse within a lesbian relationship tends to be verbal and relational, whereas within a homosexual relationship between two men tends to be more physical.

And that just kind of speaking to the differences in which God made men and women, even coming out in the sin patterns of those who engage in homosexuality and express other sinful inclinations in other ways in that way.

So, yeah, I mean, that's kind of the extent of what I've known about it. But I do know that the kind of the deep core issues of bitterness and unforgiveness and those kinds of things can be there, whether someone is a man or a woman, and there may be sexual abuse that took place in the background too that leads to that in many cases.

Well, Kira, you've also won a free copy of the book we're discussing, so make sure you get us your full mailing address.

We have Archibald in North Adams, Massachusetts.

And Archibald says, from what I have observed from documentaries, or should

I say documentaries, I've mispronounced that word, there seems to be an overly high percentage that is disproportionate of serial killers who are male homosexuals.

Do you have any idea why there seems to be such a strong connection? I've heard people try and draw out that connection before too.

I don't have a whole lot of information on that. That's not a particular line of inquiry that I've made.

But if I were to kind of take a stab at guessing at it, I think that it may just have to do a lot with shame and guilt and nothing being able to cover that over.

And so that just pours out more and more into a lot of different aspects. And that's the reality when it comes to homosexuality.

As much as people want to parade and talk about pride, you notice the kinds of words that are used around the promotion of this within society all have to do with removing shame.

And within that is removing the guilt that comes from shame. And so that's really part of the main apparatus behind even the gay

Christian movement, is the attempt to remove guilt from homosexuality completely, to where someone can say, well,

I don't feel any guilt and I don't feel any shame and I don't feel anything to be ashamed of and there's nothing really wrong and I can just live the way that I want to live and God can smile at that and bless me in that.

And so as someone gives themselves over more and more to other things, to those sinful behaviors and ways of thinking, it can express itself in all kinds of violent and wicked ways.

Could you please summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners right now? I want people to realize that there is a threat within our churches and even if you are in very conservative churches that you feel like is very biblically grounded and rooted, remember that there's a number of ways that people are being impacted by these questions and to take some time to think through a lot of this because I think this will increasingly be a part of our evangelism and discipleship going forward, especially as we start to see more and more exiles from the sexual revolution come in.

People who went out and lived lifestyles that were completely counter to God, they've ruined their lives and they're coming back into the church either because they have questions or because God is prompting them or because they're being reached out to by friends and neighbors.

You know, to think through a lot of these questions so that it will help you in your day -to -day discipleship and evangelism efforts as we try and point people toward Christ and help them work through a lot of the real baggage that they carry with them coming from a lifestyle of sin and godlessness that doesn't just immediately go away when you're a

Christian, but those are things that the Lord obviously is sanctifying through you, but part of that is that work of submitting those desires and temptations and things to the

Lord and trying to see Him as one who is all in all. Well, don't forget folks, if you want to purchase a copy of Dangerous Affirmation, The Threat of Gay Christianity, go to afa .net.

That's the website of the American Family Association, afa .net. I want to thank you,

M .D. Perkins, for being such an absolutely superb guest. I look forward to frequent return visits from you and I want to thank everybody who listened.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater