Mormon Talks with a Christian Pastor About God

Apologia Utah

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All one we already asked you you have I'm just curious like where where are you guys from? Yeah.

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Yeah. My name is Wade Good to meet you. Wait, what's your name? Ephraim we're Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're from South Jordan.

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Okay. Apology a church. We're a Baptist Church. We're Christians Yeah. Yeah. What about you? I I'm down.

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I actually oddly enough. I live in a from Utah My name's Ephraim and I live in it. Wow Wow, how long you been there

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I've been there a few years now actually now now that I think about it Yeah, okay since 2021, but I was up in Rexburg before it.

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Okay. I grew up in Grantsville. That's my okay. Yeah. Yeah Wow Yeah, so we're we're

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Christians, so we're we're out here because at these large events whether it be, you know in general conference or you know, something like this or or other

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Large events that garner many people. It's a good opportunity for us to just get the gospel out We we want people to hear the good news of Christ And so that's why we're here.

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We don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but we want to tell them the truth that God detests false worship and You know, he tells you know, the the

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Israelites even especially didn't you know, don't worship as the people in the land

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Right, right. Yeah, and don't make any engraving images don't worship images things like that.

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And so we see that this is This is not just simply culture in Hinduism and with Hare Krishna, you can't separate culture from their religious rituals

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And so everything about this is very worshipful very religious And so we wanted to we were just here telling people the truth that Christ is the one worthy of worship he's the one worthy to receive all praise and To not align ourselves with this.

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So anyways, that's why we're here. What what brings you here? Well, I've just brought some students because I okay national students from Snow College.

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Oh, I gotcha Gotcha gotcha Escort them.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I give them a kind of an experience. Yeah. What uh, what are your faith beliefs if you don't mind? LDS yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah since you're young or what's oh, yeah since I've since I've been growing up Baptized it.

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Yeah, it's old and do you still yeah, do you still practice? Yeah, I practice and I'm with you

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I love Jesus Christ I believe he is our Savior and I love this Holy Week by my wife and I've spent a lot of time with our kids

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This week just reading about Savior story reading his and Just pondering on the marvel of his resurrection this week.

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What a wonderful opportunity it has been. Yeah, I Feel that I feel that way. I haven't

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I don't know in the past ice we celebrate Easter but this year we like decide to really like put in an effort to like Set it apart and make it important because yeah

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It should be it should we should celebrate it a lot more than we do feel like and man

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It it's made a difference like this week is for sure. So so good. Sure. Just have that extra boost.

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Yeah Do you? You know, what is How do you believe you were you were saved, you know, how did you know what what happened to you?

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You know to come to this to come to Christ Yeah I was raised in a way that I was taught to try and and live as Jesus lived and to follow him

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And I've always I've come to learn, you know that grace does save us It we are all saved because of Jesus Christ.

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We will all be resurrected There's so much hope in that right that he gives hope to everybody

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And that's why I served a mission. That's why I did you know kind of what you did I I went out and shared the gospel with people. I shared this message because People do need to there's a lot of people without hope.

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Yes. I I agree. It's it's all grace and but that's why we come out to to the temple near BYU or general conference because Historically, I'm sure you've heard

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Christians. Maybe say this is like we're concerned that the that you know Mormonism or Latter -day

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Saint theology is something that Is graceless because grace is something that's unmerited favor.

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It's it's something you can't work for you can't earn it But then you know, even the articles of faith even even things like, you know

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Moroni in chapter 10 verse 32 Yeah Come unto Christ and be perfected in him and deny yourselves of all ungodliness

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And if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might mind strength

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Then is his grace sufficient for you you so you have an if then Statement in the

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Book of Mormon that if you do this then you'll receive grace, but as Christians we see the

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Bible says If God has given you grace and you've been changed in you and you've been regenerate and he's opened your eyes and made you born again then then you will

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Deny ungodliness then you'll you know, so we see an order of operations difference there and you must obey quote -unquote the gospel ordinances and principles to be saved and You know,

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I've asked Mormon neighbors So you believe I'm going to be saved.

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Oh, yes. Absolutely, you know and You know what level will I be because we you know in LDS theology we talked about different levels and said well, you'll be given an opportunity to hear more truth here and Celestial is very important but there to be in God's presence

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You know, you have to do get your temple endowment. You have to you know have celestial marriage you have to you know, you you have to even participate in tithing and and good good good a

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Attendance for to even get the temple recommends and everything like that. So to me, it's like if The celestial level is where God's presence is and where you'll be with God anywhere else to me is hell

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Like being away from God is hell after I've died, right? so so if I have to work a certain way and be a certain way to be with God then that's

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Fundamentally a different gospel like he he takes He takes people dirty sinners

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For lack of a better term and it says in Ezekiel 36. He says I will sprinkle you with clean water

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I will I will clean you I will I will make you new I will take out your heart of stone and remove and put in a heart of flesh and then

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I will pour out my spirit Upon you and so there's this change that happens first Before I could even participate in any of those works.

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Does that make sense? Honestly, you really haven't said anything that I disagree with And I I commend you for I taking the time to try and understand

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Everybody's beliefs because and I and I can tell you just love I appreciate that.

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I do and I and I do too. I love him. That's and that's my central focus. I am

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Christian so Yes as others do but you know

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Can I ask you something Ephraim? Yeah, if if if I pointed at my my brother here

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Eric and I said That's Ephraim. That's him. That's You're no longer that or he is too.

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He's you as well And I said that's Ephraim right there But that was actually Eric right if I if I simply call him that that doesn't change his identity or or something like that So, you know

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Second Corinthians 11 says that there will be those who have a different gospel a different Christ in a different spirit even

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Jesus says there'll be those who use my name, but they're they're not me and So that's where I'm concerned that I appreciate what you're saying about Jesus and even your

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Easter week this Passion Week, but What if it's possible that in Mormonism we've?

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Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and all these prophets and Apostles have made something and they pointed at it and they've gone

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That's Jesus, but we're like no look at the Bible. Look, this is Jesus the uncreated creator who says

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That all things have made been made through him and not anything that was made was made apart from him

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So that means he's outside things that are created So if he made all things and he said nothing was made apart from him, then he wasn't created but in LDS doctrine he was

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Created he's a created being he he he has that start that beginning

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Whereas John one says that in the beginning was the word and it's pointing to him because later

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John in verse 14 We'll call him Jesus is the word made flesh. So he says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and The word was

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God And so there's you know what you would understand what we're saying Trinitarian doctrine all all at once.

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Jesus is with God So do you also is God? What's that yeah, yeah father son and Holy Spirit all this they're all the same the one being of God one essence of God Is that the word you use being your essence and then three personhood, you know

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So a person so he we you Ephraim you have one being yeah one nature and one personhood

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Like thinking about things in ontology and understanding natures and stuff but God has revealed himself as one being three personhoods

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All co -equal all co -eternal they're not three parts of one that would be called partialism.

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That's false They're not they're not three different modes of God So sometimes the God appears as the mode of the

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Sun sometimes he appears as the mode of the Spirit. That's not true either It's just in Scripture All at once and this is this is amazing.

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This is who God is This is this is how he's revealed himself all at once in Scripture It says that he is one but then at the very same time it says that the

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Father and the Son and the Spirit are God and now You and I it's hard to make that Comprehension, but we take

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God's Word and we believe it. We believe what he says about him So so I guess what

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I'm trying to say is and I'm I'm rambling now But but if we if we take something and say, okay.

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No, this is Jesus. He was he was once He was once a creature some

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LDS doctrine even says that he was begotten by Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and He came in that way and then he progressed and took on deity

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Then then we're talking about the Passion Week then how could an elevated man?

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Absorb the wrath of God for the sins of mankind. I don't think that's possible

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I think what what what the Bible says is that he has been God from all eternity the pre -incarnate

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Christ and That he was never once created. He's the uncreated creator.

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He has no beginning. No end the Alpha the Omega and and basically Because he's all at the same time totally human totally man full totally and fully

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Man but then also totally and fully divine or God all the same time with no mixture of the two

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Then he's able in that power to be able to take on the wrath of God You and me couldn't get on a cross and pay for anyone's sin.

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We couldn't even pay for our own sins the only way So you get what I'm saying? What do you what do you say to that if we?

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If we go away from what God has said about him About his nature and who

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Jesus is and we point at something and say but this is Jesus Then that's not kind of the same

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Jesus, you know what I mean? Everybody and that's the thing you see that so much of the world. I don't know

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Wait, I'm just very impressed. You're very well No, no,

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I'm not. I know it's apparently you've spent time. That's what I'm trying to say I'm trying to understand.

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Yeah, not only others but also Christ himself and that I Admire that and people if people would take time to do that It would change the way that they acted every day.

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It would change the way the people that they were which is really what? What what God wants for us what

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Jesus wants for us is for us to be good me. Yeah, you are best despite being saved by To share to be kind to serve that says in James that pure religion is to feed the hungry

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Yeah, yeah, right and take care of that. I read that just this past week James 126 and 27 yeah, and I Was just reminded and maybe only

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I need to take some time to look outside myself Instead of you know, I so often it's so easy to look on the inside But and here we are talking.

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Sorry I kind of it feels like I'm kind of like shying away from what you're saying and it's I Guess I'm not really here to talk about doctor

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Okay, because I know that we don't agree on everything but what I have realized as we've talked Wade We actually agree.

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I have way more things that I realized before Like coming into this I was kind of expecting a lot a lot more like things that I'm like, wow

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We really are not on the same page. But yeah, yeah, honestly The differences feel so so slight to me and I understand that they're they're very important to you

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I don't want to take away. Sure. Sure. I'm grateful that you're here like teaching and helping people and I believe you are help

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Well, and that's the thing you from you know, that's just I don't want to contradict what he just said

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I appreciate I appreciate what you're saying in your friendliness and your neighborliness, but but there there is more that concerns me just everything from eternal progression and Taking on the nature of Godhood and that as the prophets and apostles have taught that God was once a man

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Elohim was a man like you and me and I I can't ever accept that because of what the scripture

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Says that no one is making you But that's the thing. That's the thing How could but if you're worshiping

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Ephraim if you're worshiping a God that was once a man, then he's not God God is immutable He doesn't change

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God is all -powerful. He never once had no power Oh, we are eternal if we if we existed before that's where that's where it all starts, right?

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We came from God if we're children of God that makes us so that's the thing Isaiah says that we began upon the earth that before you were actually born and God breathed his

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Says, you know like like he breathed the breath of life into Adam before he did that for you and me We didn't exist.

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So we have a start and we'll move forward into eternity But we aren't from eternity the but the

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Bible doesn't say that or you know, whether it be in the form of intelligences or Mormon doctrine says or things like Like you understand like you have read a lot about the religion.

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So amazing that so that What would cause you to reconsider this and think about Christianity and I know you would call it

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Christian But but what we would call evangelical or biblical Christianity, what would cause you to?

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Pause or concern, you know, wait, nothing will take me away from me because I don't want to take you away from him

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But I'm afraid you're not with him right now, and I appreciate your concern, but I have felt personal spiritual

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Confirmation and I know that I am following Jesus Christ. Have you tested that though?

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How I have by I keep going on a mission by acting in faith. Okay, I'm praying

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David I read I read in the scriptures daily. I go to the Bible even this is to test the spirits.

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I go to church Yeah every week And it teach me we learned that nothing bad can come from God and I don't believe that anything that I That I believe is bad, right?

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I think that there's mistakes that people make but that's the mistakes of it But but if we're promised we can become a god one day

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No, not just not just like in his moral, you know often they become a god.

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Yeah Become a god become as because some LDS will lie to me and and they'll say well become like him in his morality

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No, no, like become a god continue. Good. I'm so glad you're actually honest with that Yes, because I believe it

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I believe that just like a kitten becomes a cat just like a you know A baby horse becomes a full -grown horse.

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We are children of God's in training exactly, right? We can become as God where do you get that?

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Where do we where do you get that doctrine? Yeah They're foreign from the Bible. No, it says we are

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God's Jesus Christ himself quotes Proverbs in Psalm Psalm 82 Thank you in John 10.

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I'm not good with the number. Okay, I know I'm taking a lot of your time Just one thing one more thing real quick one more thing one more thing one more thing to think about.

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I appreciate you I've enjoyed this. Yeah. Yeah me too. I've learned a lot. So so John 10 context

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What's happening is in John 10? Those are the good shepherd passages

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Jesus says I am the door. I am the good shepherd I'll lose none of my sheep.

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I'll let none of them perish none. No one will snatch them out of my hand that's the end and he's in front of At this the portico of Solomon he's near he's near the temple in Jerusalem and these religious leaders are

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Are there and basically they've been Rebuking him.

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They've been mocking him. They've been wanting to get him arrested. They're sick of his teaching right and and what

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Jesus does is he begins to rebuke them in their false leadership and in their

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Poor rulership of the people that he calls himself the the real shepherd because often chief priests

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Scribes Pharisees, they were considered like shepherds of Israel they were considered leaders in Israel and what happens is

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Jesus calls himself the Son of God So they get they get mad at that.

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They hate that right, right, right And so he quotes he quotes from Psalm 82 and he said and he brings that up yep, and so the context of that and the the different theories are the that those gods or sons of gods are where the people of Israel who who received the

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The Word of God on at Mount Sinai, so that's one theory. The other theory is that that's a that's an angelic

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Council or a divine council of sorts who were up with God Then the other one is what what I understand because Jesus uses

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Psalm 82 in this context basically Psalm 82 God talks to these men these rulers these

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Kings these judges and he says you're gonna die like any other man You're gonna die like mere mortals

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I gave you the honorific title of Elohim in the plural of Gods, I gave you that honorific title was just a title but they were there were simply men who were given these

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Statuses of rulership and leadership over Israel, but they abused it He said you didn't care for the poor you didn't care for the orphan

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You didn't care for the widow and so you're you're you're gonna not have that status anymore

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And in fact the fulfillment of Psalm 82 will be in Christ So he's gonna call my son's coming the

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Messiah is coming basically Inferred in that and Jesus will call himself the Son of God And so what he's saying to those rulers is this that indictment from Psalm 82 on those rulers is for you

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Chief priests scribes and Pharisees you are the false leaders. You're false shepherds.

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You're false judges false rulers and And we're going and and I'm the one

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Who can rightfully be called Son of God? No one else will get that title anymore

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And how can you say to me that they could be called gods and I call myself the Son of God?

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And he's actually not a son of God. He's the Son of God. He's not a God He is the

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God and so that's the whole point of John 10 there and Jesus interpreting Psalm 82.

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It's not that there were Men who were gods at the time of the one true

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God and so that's that would be the the explanation Not a theory how

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Jesus interprets Psalm 82 that they're mere men They're they're not gods and he is allowed to have that title because he rightfully deserve it.

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That's his nature. He's deity He's God. So anyways, what do you think of that? I'm very confused

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I don't know enough about the the history and the context and that kind of stuff and maybe there are some history historical context

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But yeah, I'm I am curious though I know that you said that was your last thing but I did I came up with a question as I was oh

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Yeah, sure as you were as you were talking, but that is I mean that is interesting And yeah, you like I said, you've taken time to read and that is like really cool

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Like good for you for knowing the Bible. So all glory to God I I read as much as I can and I've learned a lot

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I don't know my verses. Oh, I'm learning too. That's awesome. So I guess my last question that I have is

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You're trying to share the gospel today like what's your end goal like for yes, yes, so Yes, what would you be hoping that I would do?

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Is it to join your church or is it to join a different church?

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Is it okay really matter? I'm trying Okay. Yeah. Yeah good question. Yeah, like what's what's the end goal? what's the good question that you're kind of looking so what we do is we don't want to do like a

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One and done a blitz like take this if people I give my card out I meet with people

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I get lunch with people I want to meet with them if they have questions Yeah, I'm going to meet with them and I'm not gonna push things.

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I want them to see it for themselves I can't save anyone. I want people to see the truth for themselves.

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So so anyway from this point like, excuse me Let's say you were like, you know,

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I have more questions I'm interested in what you're hearing then I would then I would want to meet with you and really just go through Because at the end of the day, it's not

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Wade's authority. It's not you know, the pastors that I've been under his authority

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We understand that the Bible is the soul infallible rule of faith

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In practice for the Christian for the believer that the Bible is the standard.

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It's God God's Word. He's spoken Second Timothy 3 says it's the honest us. It's God breathed that which means, you know, it comes out of his mouth

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It's come to us. And so if God's spoken, it's authoritative itself at us

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Attesting and and it's binding on on all creatures And so we we would then look at the

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Bible and we would compare You know your beliefs or what you've learned to what the Bible says and and not simply an interpretation

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But what is the plain reading and meaning of the text? how can we understand what God has said and look at it and compare and wherever it differs throw that away and You know join join the truth and at that point

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You know, they don't have to go to Apologia Church in South Jordan.

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Yeah, what we want is we encourage people then to find a good Bible believing

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Christian Church and so at the end of the day, we don't want to People say you're trying to rob me of my faith and I said, no,

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I'm not I don't want to remove what faith you have I want I want you to place that faith in the truth and in the one true

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God So people say I have this vibrant faith and I can respect that but it's misplaced in my you know

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Respectfully in my opinion and what I see with the Word of God. And so yeah, it doesn't have to be with us

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We're not trying to build the biggest and best whatever here we see that this place is this state is two to three percent evangelical and it's

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Largely LDS and there's other religions here and we're just trying to as you

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You know Did what you said you went on mission? We're we're trying to obey the

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Great Commission Matthew 28 to go. Yeah So that's what it is. Yeah, that's that's the end goal.

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Yeah It's so good to get to know yet, I'm curious do you have a family and stuff?

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Yeah Yeah. Yeah, I have my wife. My wife's name is Sarah. We'll be married 14 years this year and we have a 12 year old who's

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Turning into a teenager little by little so that's really exciting. Yeah, boy, and I'm ready for that I've got three little ones.

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Do you yeah, so how many you got three? How old five three and it's seven five three.

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We're not in the upper stage Congratulations Yeah, how many

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How many meeting houses are in our word? Yeah any from over any from there's

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See, I mean there's a couple of like young single adult ones because we have to snow college down there. Oh, yes. Yeah They're building a temple there and then there's

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Wow, they're building them everywhere, huh? Or reading Wow. Wow any

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Christian churches. So, you know, yeah, at least two There's the Church of the Bible that's down there the Catholic Church Let's say it's mostly

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Hispanic community that goes back to that one As well as a few others in it that are in the surrounding

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Like towns that are like five ten miles away. Yeah Protestant Oh watch out a couple of yeah churches as well.

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Yeah, and actually I I've been on like some of the ecumenical like council stuff and talking like, you know, other other religions

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Yeah, we're together and there's some neat stuff that's happened. I just love I love our religiously

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How big is that city? So I mean, it's just small. We have like 7 ,000 people there Wow, but the the school

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Fuels the school brings another 5 ,000 people. Yeah, so it's not a huge school Yeah, but then you have the surrounding communities that each have about 7 ,000 people each.

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Yeah Yeah, I end up with you know, 50 or 60. Yeah people. Yeah small in this. Yeah, it's kind of spread out in the rural

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But you get I don't know. It's really really neat There's some just some good people that I've met in this and like then now

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I've never been there. Yeah And actually now it's a good time if you're it sounds like you've done a lot of studies on Have you ever gone to like a temple open house or anything like that?

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That's what that's what I'm doing. Actually this year There's a couple. Yeah that I want to check out anti and I didn't come down and go through that's right.

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That's right Yeah, I did hear about that heritage and stuff in it. Okay, beautiful temple to see and just It's Hey, I appreciate it a long walk wait right now

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But are you uh, sir you driving all the way back or doing something and coming back or I'll just be driving back

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And that's it. Okay, not right now, but I've got a we got a visitor Don't want to spend the back of that.

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Yeah, we have a bus So, okay, just be kind of going on a walk for a little while because I decided that I'm not gonna get colored up today

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Yeah, I didn't feel like doing that I've done it before and it was fun to just come and hang out and but I Didn't would uh, would you feel?

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Tainted to take one of these and this is good my personal number if you ever had any questions Or email my emails even this will go these things will go straight to me.

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So I Appreciate just the conversation and we're hearing me out II from and of course

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Hey, I've been in your shoes man. I didn't like it when people slam doors in my Sure, sure yelled at sure

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But at the end of the day This is this is of eternal significance so I really hope you look into the things that I've said and look at that one about testing the spirits because You know, if if if we have this misplaced face faith in a in the wrong

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Jesus the wrong spirit the wrong God, you know We we need to repent from that.

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We need to turn from that. So check that out. I really care for you, man I really do Really?

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I've really felt The love of the safe Thank you for your time. Yeah, you wait.