September 16, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Program Announcements and Upcoming Travel

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. My name is James White and it is good to be with you live this morning and I would like to make a special announcement right off of the bat.

We.

Recognize, of course that there have been problems for a number of weeks now with straightgate .com. We've mentioned that we do not control that. We know that Steven Luker is struggling with the folks who control that server to try to get them to do the right thing and He's still working on that and I'm certain that eventually that will be taken care of.

However till then a number of you are Wondering and some of you unfortunately are complaining. Regarding the fact that I can't listen to the dividing line archives for free. Well, you know the easiest thing to do is just download the mp3 it's only like a buck or something like that and then you can do that, but The folks who make it available the folks that's sort of a folksy way of putting it the individual who makes it possible for You to listen live Has begun to temporarily Archive the programs and They are available.

Don't ask me how in the world you get a URL like this, but at HTTP colon backslash backslash God can dot redirect me dotnet. Now, I don't know honestly if the capitals in that are Relevant because God can redirect and me are all capitalized.

Net is not I don't know. I didn't try it, but they are available for you there Forward slash backslash, whatever. You know what it is HTTP Colon slash slash God can dot redirect me dotnet and you can listen to.

I think the last three have been have been posted there so you can listen to those there and Go from there, so I want to let everybody know that that those are available so that people will stop causing The capitals are not relevant good people will stop making Steven Luker's email box explode whining and complaining and all the rest that stuff, but yes, we know and Eventually it will be taken care of and so on so forth.

So just let you know those are available there eight seven seven seven five three three three four one I have.

One.

Soundclip to play today for you and.

Then a.

Web article that we can look at or start looking at all depends on what the phone lines do this morning. I think this week's schedule will be the same as last week's. Please make a note of the earlier start Thursday night an hour earlier and then I'm Headed out of town will be in Austin, Texas this weekend at Dayspring Bible Church on Saturday and Sunday morning Killeen Bible Church Sunday night, and I will be speaking on a response to new perspectivism basically what I'll be doing on Saturday at the Dayspring Bible is dealing with the doctrine of justification and especially Explaining what the new perspective on Paul is as it is really Entering into churches via the medium of NT Wright's writings and those who are promoting his writings and especially focusing primarily upon His.

I believe it's nineteen ninety-eight Nineteen-ninety-seven nineteen ninety-seven publication what st. Paul really said this is really the source through which much of the Much of this is moving into churches and it's concerning many folks and so we're going to spend some time Coming to understand what he's saying first of all and then giving a response to it, especially A an exegetical response because that's that's really where the issue is.

NT Wright is a wonderful writer, but he's a I would call him a theologizer. He he cites passages and he'll make arguments about passages. That's not exegesis. It's not the same thing he's certainly a tremendously gifted scholar, but I Think that his conclusions and his concepts are dangerous and they're dangerous to the proclamation of the gospel.

And so we'll be discussing that at Dayspring Bible Church and then be ministering there in the morning. It's I think their 25th anniversary and so I'll be challenging them in regards to The continuation of their their ministry there and then as I mentioned Killeen Bible Church that evening as well, so That'll be this weekend in Austin the weekend after that in Globe, Arizona.

The folks from Alpha Omega ministries are going to be presenting a all-day seminar up there on Roman Catholicism Islam Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism and we'll be doing some some role-playing. And things like that up there during the day there and then the weekend after that those of you up in, Utah University of Utah Friday night.

I believe it's October 3rd at the University of Utah 7 o 'clock. I believe I'll be debating geriatrics on the subject of the perpetual virginity of Mary specific the thesis didn't Mary have other children after Jesus was born and That will be an interesting debate we've discussed that a number of times on the program before I head to Sao Paulo Brazil the next day Pastors conference with more than a thousand people in attendance.

I'll be speaking there about I think about eight times over five days something like that. Flying back and then heading up to Minneapolis Twin Cities Bible Church the first. Yeah, they've the second. No, it's a third which weekend October.

No, it's 17th 18th that that weekend somewhere around in there in October I'll be up at Twin Cities Bible Church in the Minneapolis area going home. That's where I was born and So I'll be up there and also visiting with friends up at Bethany house publishers, too.

So lots and lots and lots of stuff coming obviously the whole week them in Sao Paulo. We're not exactly going to be doing the dividing line long distance. So I will leave that up to the great the great voice.

In the other room as to what he wants to do during the course that week you either have to endure all of the all of the the gripes and complaints or you. You know put on a best of or or you bring Warren in and he sings Elvis or you know something like that.

Something that would make everyone really happy something along those lines. I don't know but starting off for today.

Well, you know the State Fair starts right about that time. So maybe we could. Yeah, do something, you know, but broadcast the State Fair. You mean broadcast from the State Fair? Oh, yeah. Well or just you know, go take a microphone over there.

Oh.

Okay. That would be very exciting. I think if you walked around and and asked people theological questions. Hey, there you go.

That's a bunch of the nose. Oh, no. No, no, just ask questions. Yes, but you know me.

Well, you wouldn't have to respond to the responses. You just simply ask questions and and people go you're kidding. People actually believe things like that and it'd be very interesting so anyway. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one.

Critique of Catholic Answers and Catholic Anthropology

I was listening to Catholic answers live. I was listening to a live call-in tough tough questions program and I didn't really hear a lot of tough questions actually, but at least one of the questions allowed for me to use it here to illustrate something.

We haven't responded to the folks over Catholic answers for a few months and It is interesting to me. And I don't know if it was interesting to everybody else. But do you remember it. Last the last of I think is last.

Dividing line.

Or.

With the one before that, I don't know we we have a regular listener and LDS fellow by name Pierre and It was it was fascinating as one before that yeah, so as we go today then It was fascinating to hear an LDS person defending Dave Hunt's position.

Did anyone else catch that? That that that's what caught me was was That the LDS person would would say Dave Hunt was right in regards the issues of human Autonomy and things like that. And of course that is true.

That's that's the perspective. That's the issue in regards to the difference between monergism and synergism, I mean Synergism is the very hallmark of human religion. It's what you know. You could get Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Roman Catholics and Armenians all together and on that issue.

They would they would they would agree now they disagree on the details of how it all works out. But they'd all agree that we are wrong about that particular issue. And I thought it was fascinating and so as I was listening to Jimmy Akin and interestingly enough.

If please do not ever get upset with me if I slip and refer to James Akin the way I've always referred James Akin. Because as I was listening to this program today He slipped and called himself James Akin before he then corrected himself to Jimmy Akin.

So if I figure if he can slip and call himself James Akin Then no one should ever get upset at me if I end up doing the same thing because I've just always referred to him as James Akin and it's hard to hard to switch over time and obviously is even hard for him.

Then again, he probably doesn't use his own name a whole lot in talking about himself in the third person unless he Suffers some disease of that fellow who ran for president and I was for Jim Sullivan the third person too, but anyway, so I was listening to this and I found the response this one caller very interesting because if you'll just sort of step back from the details.

If you'll step back from from the way, we normally listen to these these particular Discussions where we're our minds sort of running ahead and how would I respond to this and what about that and there's a fact here that needs to be addressed and sometimes we we miss the overall stuff because we are listening very very closely if You will listen to what is said here You will hear just how tremendously man-centered Focused upon human accomplishment and human activity I mean the whole concept of the sovereignty of God and the freedom of God the power of God completely lost in This discussion that takes place on Catholic answers within the past month.

Let's just we've got to have the computer up and we'll be ready to rock and roll here and listen to.

Catholic answers is now as a Christian, but not a Catholic. Obviously Catholics have traditions and I mean that's a big minority. It's fine rituals. Yeah. So as I do on occasion two Catholics are committed to take mass or to participate in that.

I'm obviously that's because the Catholics and the Catholics think happen. It depends.

God warrants Everyone to be part of the fullness of the faith that he gave to mankind and that's found in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the original Christian Church and you know, our bishops today are descended By lines as we talked in earlier in the program of ordination directly from the Apostles.

So God wants Everyone to receive the fullness of the graces that he has to offer in the fullness of the truth that he's offered mankind. And that's found in the Catholic Church if someone were to know that and then.

To know that God wills this and that that's where the fullness of grace and truth is found and to then refuse. To accept it on God's terms. Well, then that would be a problem that that person would not be accepting salvation on God's terms.

And so that person would not go to heaven. Now, you know, there's something there.

I'm gonna replay a section of that but but that I don't know that's sort of how politicians answer a question. I mean, I at least I'll give mr. Aiken this much credit at this point. There are a lot of Roman Catholics today that don't even they're not not even that conservative in the sense that.

You know, everybody's could go to heaven. They've there is a functional universalism in existence amongst many Roman Catholics say that's that's obvious but what. Notice the phraseology if you know that that Rome Contains the fullness of the gospel and all the rest of stuff and I and I go well, what do you mean?

Know that. I mean, I know Rome claims that I don't believe it for a second. I knowingly reject that because it's unbiblical unhistorical, etc, etc, but. Do where do I fall there? I mean, I'll never forget when I did a radio program.

In fact, this was this would have been about 1993 1994 now coming up on right about 10 years ago. And I sort of date that by where my office was at that time. And I remember where I wrote a certain book.

I remember when the book came out and if my office was here when the book came out then that means this took place. Such a year that's that that tells you when you've been doing this for a while. Anyway, I remember we did a radio program and right toward the end of the program I don't know if it was a caller brought it up or I brought up.

I don't recall but but the issue of the anathema came up. And of course, mr. Matta ticks back when he was the Catholic answers. They had their standard answer of the anathema the anathema doesn't mean that we know who's going to hell the church doesn't send anybody to hell.

You know, it just means that you're cut off in fellowship of the Catholic Church and and yada yada yada. Well after the program came up and it came up the issue of the anathema camp right the end of the programs.

There really wasn't a lot of time. Jerry called me back on that number called my office just to make sure that I knew. That from his perspective not only was I anathema but that he recognized that historically the anathema meant I do not have eternal life.

I am going to hell. He wanted to make sure that I understood that and I said, yes, Jerry I fully understand that and hopefully you understand. I I believe the exact same thing concerning you but That was not a question from my perspective, but it was a question this this is a place where he had he had changed his Presentation well what we just listened to from mr. Aiken.

Well, you know if you know. And then you refuse that then that's a problem. Now maybe he just misspoke, but I'm not sure that that that's the best way of putting that's a problem. And then instead of that person will remain under the wrath of God or that person has no forgiveness of sins.

He will not go to heaven. Nice little, you know, you don't get the lollipop at the end, you know, do not pass go do not collect $200. That kind of a situation. No, this person's under the wrath of God the God's wrath falls upon this individual, etc, etc.

So I found that to be I don't know just the way that it was presented and then.

To know that God will this and that that's where the fullness of grace and truth is found and to then refuse. To accept it on God's terms. Well, then that would be a problem that that person would not be accepting salvation on God's terms.

And so that person would not go to heaven. But if the person is through no fault of his own, he's just not aware You know or hasn't seen the evidence he needs to realize that this is what God wants then God won't hold it against him.

He'll as long as the person is trying to follow God's will and trying to follow God's grace. As he understands it then in good conscience, then God will let him into heaven.

Anyway, whoa, did you catch all that? I hope you were listening there. Sometimes you I think people hear. The part you heard before and your mind starts wandering. And what you just listen to hopefully explains to you the importance of having a biblical anthropology a biblical doctrine of man.

Here you have a Roman Catholic apologist suggesting that you can have.

In.

The the mass of humanity Individuals who out of good conscience out of honesty are just simply following What what is best and And and God will not hold it against them. Well, what is God holding against them?

The whole idea of the abiding concept of God's wrath Is is missing here. It's and and you know, how could it not be that way when you think about it? How could it not be when you think about when you realize that in Roman Catholicism?

God's forgiveness is mediated through these these Endless sacraments these things you go through over and over and over again. Obviously, there is no real understanding of the reality of the wrath of God.

If you really understood the wrath of God you would recognize as Luther recognized that that it is so terrible it is so fierce and So righteous and so holy that these these sin-stained human activities Could not be the means by which that wrath is propitiated and so but but you just hear that well, you know if you know if you're just sincerely doing your best and and.

You know, you're.

You're just you just don't know about about the Vatican and the Pope and. You're Vatican Lee Vaticanically challenged as someone just mentioned in the channel there. Then I can hold that against you and he's gonna come on in come on in and.

Here again, you know, you've got this when you don't have a biblical doctrine of atonement substitution. Which few Protestants even have these days?

It.

It makes perfect sense. I mean Jesus has just sort of done the you know, his his death on the cross is just sort of in some vague generic fashion has has Done away with sin. And so hey, you know, you're you're ready.

It's no wonder that inclusivism and Roman Catholicism are melding together in the vast majority of.

Catholics experiences and thinking these days to realize that this is what God wants then God won't hold it against him. He'll as long as the person is trying to follow God's will and trying to follow God's grace as he understands it.

Then in good conscience. Then God will let him into heaven anyway, because he's trying to do what he thinks he's supposed to do. But ultimately God does want everyone to embrace the fullness of the Christian faith, which is found in the Catholic Church.

But in the Bible isn't I mean, it's just simple. It's just you have to confess that Jesus Christ is the Savior with your mouth and believe it with your heart. So where then did he does these other requirements come from?

Well, they also come from Scripture.

The one of the things you find when you look at for instance The passage that you were alluding to is Paul is not talking about how to become a Christian. Paul is talking to people who are already Christians and for those who are already Christians.

Yeah, you need to Continue to profess faith in Jesus. You need to confess him before persecutors if you're called upon to do that. But that doesn't address the question of how you become a Christian in the first place.

How you do that is you get baptized. You repent and you get baptized and that's something we see from Jesus's own message. He says repent and believe the gospel the kingdom of heaven is near. So repentance is part of it.

We also see that baptism is part of it. On the day of Pentecost when people asked what they needed to do Peter told them to be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. Similarly in 1st Peter 3 21. He tells us point-blank Baptism now saves you so yes, you do need to believe in your heart.

And yes, you do need to confess with your lips. But that's something that you're doing not just at the time you become a Christian but afterwards and it's people who are already Christians that Paul's addressing when you read about how you become a Christian.

It's repent and be baptized.

Now, let me just mention briefly. Just a couple things if you miss the grace of God if you miss the calling of God If you miss the active role of God outside of just simply making our activities a possibility.

Don't worry. It wasn't there. Because that's just when you have a man-centered religion. That's that's how things work. You just say well, you know God by his grace make these things available. Then we do this this you work the system synergism.

It's it's. That's just the way things things are. But you you also may have May have caught a little something there That I found interesting and that is mr. Aiken talks about what you know, you need to look at passages of Scripture and who's being addressed and I go yeah, you know, you really do and that's why you need to look at James chapter 2 one of the favorite passages of James Aiken and From a Catholic apologist in general and go, you know what?

He's he's talking to Christians there and and You know what? He's not talking about initial justification. He's not talking about how a person is justified is he and they would say well, maybe not but then you've got all these.

You know read justification all the rest of stuff. But you know, you got to start off with looking at the context don't you and I would I would obviously I would obviously agree with that particular element of it.

I just don't know that it's always applied properly.

So that's something that You know, you have to be sensitive to when you're reading the New Testament is What is this passage talking about. Not every passage that deals with salvation deals with how you become a Christian?

Some deal with how you retain salvation now that you are a Christian and that's what's going on there how you.

Retain salvation. You know, they're there that's something that folks should listen to just a little bit. And especially folks that are running around today talking, you know, they're they're they're trying to say they're reformed they're trying to say they're they're they're still believing in justification by faith, but they Start talking about these these works and they start talking about remaining in the Covenant by doing this that and the other thing.

Sounds a little familiar there. There's there's a reason why it does now that you are a Christian and that's what's going on there.

I appreciate that. I appreciate that. You don't like that. Go ahead. No, go ahead. No, you go ahead. No, you go ahead. Don't have the monopoly on baptism. I mean I was baptized in a Methodist Church. True.

And we would honor that as valid.

But there are other sacraments such as confession which Which we read about in John's Gospel where Jesus tells the disciples Whoever sends you forgive they are forgiven and whose whoever sends you retain they are retained.

That's something that's really not available in the Methodist Church and Further Christ is very clear. Especially in John's Gospel about willing his followers to be one. And even in Matthew for example where he talks about founding his church.

He says I will build my church and it's singular not churches. Plural so he built one church and we can show from the context. He's talking about a visible church if you want to read about that look at my website.

But he's talking about there's one visible church that he founded and it's his and. Everyone who wants to be his follower needs to be a part of that. And of course that has.

Absolutely positively nothing whatsoever to do with the Church of Rome unless someone would like to you know. It's interesting when you hear these claims what it's just one church. We're the original church and then when you start asking and so the original church taught this and the original church taught this and the original church taught this.

No, no, no now you need let's talk about acorns and oak trees. You know ever ever run into that. Yeah, you know as soon as you start going it's. No, wait a minute. So you're saying the original church was the was Rome.

Oh, yes. Yes, all of our, you know direct line ordination bishops. Hmm. So the bishops From which you trace ordination taught. What you teach? Well sort of in the idea of the acorn and the oak tree and they start doing all this stuff with.

With that kind of thing and you just go. Oh. Which one is it and then of course is that there's only one church, well, of course, there's only one church. No one disagrees with that. But the the use of the term here is a well and we are it I'd say half of at least half of Rome's Apologetic is based upon Making an assertion and then hoping that the person listening will fill in the non stated assumption in other words.

Well, if sola scriptura isn't true.

Then.

What. Well, then you need another source of authority. You need another thing To tell you what the Bible is and tell you what the Bible says. And and. They'll never expose Rome's positive claims the same level of Criticism that they will use on other systems or on on the scriptures themselves and critiquing sola scriptura.

But it's sort of it's meant for you to Come to the assumption that Rome is the answer to the question without there having to say it. And so. That's something I think most folks who have dealt with.

Roman Catholic apologists have seen that have experienced that themselves in the first century there weren't these other churches yet. They all split off later. So that's why we don't read about him, but it's indicated.

There's one church. He wants his followers to be united. We don't read so we do read about Rome.

Where where it is, where is the Pope? What do you mean? So that's why we don't read about them. We don't read about them.

That doesn't make any sense, but it's indicated. There's one church. He wants his followers to be united and therefore he wants him to be part of that church. I hope that helps.

It's up. I appreciate it. All right, Robert. Thanks a lot for your phone call. Your phone call. All right, so by the way, I just one point of clarification Robert did mention. He sometimes has occasion go to Catholic mass and you don't feel that he can't participate actually there as much he can participate.

All right participate in the prayers. It's just communion that I'm not able to receive it.

So I just hope he understands that but yeah, he can feel You know part of the assembly and get involved in the prayers and so forth. You know, there are just the restrictions on communion Robert.

Well, you know, I found that interesting and that's the end of the cut that I'm gonna be playing. I found that very interesting that what you can be involved with the prayers you can you can be involved in mass.

Well. If if you've read the material Roman Catholic apologetics materials, by the way, eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one eight seven seven. Seven five three three three four one if you read the materials, you know that one of the arguments is frequently used.

You go to John 6.

And you.

Deal with Jesus words there and and Jesus says unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in yourself and I've had Roman Catholics say see it's absolutely necessary to partake of the mass.

Because you know here it is. Well, how would you be involved? I thought prayer was worship so you can be involved in worship, but you can't be involved in the very means of having eternal life that it all is supposed.

To be pointing to in this, you know, I don't that part doesn't make sense and of course, you know you transport this back just a couple hundreds of years ago and and My how things have changed they would love for you to have shown up as a non-catholic.

So they then could have turned you over to secular authorities and shoved you in prison and then and then tied you to a stake. And you go, oh, that's terrible. That's what happened. That's that's just a fact of history.

Doesn't doesn't you know, well, well Protestants killed the people too. Yeah. Yeah, I know they did but the point.

Remains.

How what what does this change mean? It is a change. Let's not deny that it was a change. Change this this. Is this not theological. Is this not relevant to the teaching concerning the nature of the church and separated brethren and all the rest that stuff?

Obviously it is but I can't hardly ever get anybody to actually discuss it and.

Anyway, I.

Understand by the way. Normally we take our break at this point in time and you know. Maybe I should start some pretty music in the background so that would everybody will feel like we're we're supposed to be but I Guess we we haven't quite fixed the things that need to be fixed as yet.

So that we can take the nice pretty thing, but there is if you've been on our our website. You have seen over on the right-hand side right underneath the mp3 shopping cart. The announcement of the debate with Greg Stafford is Jesus God or a God and evangelical versus Jehovah's Witness debate.

Friday December 5th 2003. Tampa, Florida. And click here for tickets and information.

The.

The place where we are having the debate It's you know, it's not a church for example, so we are having to purchase The space so there are costs involved so there have to be tickets. I wish that we were you know a big Well-funded ministry, so that wouldn't have to be the case, but we aren't and So you have to sell tickets and not only that we'd have to sell tickets or at least make tickets available for free Even if there wasn't a cost, you know, why because there is a very limited seating we can only afford to rent so much space and So I'm not exactly sure what the the seating limitation is.

But you're going to need a ticket and if you're planning on attending you'll want to go to the website you will want to go to Tampa debate that HTML at a omin org and You're going to want to look at the information there.

Hi Regency, Tampa Bay to 11 North Tampa Street the date time Michael Fallon's Contact numbers are available there as well admission is $13 in advance 15 at the door. If you are a part of the cruise you will not have to pay for that.

You will not have to purchase tickets. The tickets will be available made available to you but if you're planning on going, but you're not going on the Cruise then you need to have the tickets and there is a link for you to click here and order your tickets online you need to do that and Since seating is limited do not put that off.

If you want to be there live obviously we are going to be audio and videotaping this encounter Because it's very important. I can tell you right now That most of the discussion is not going to be if I am predicting correctly so much on Specific passages of scripture as my presentation.

I would like it to be But more upon the objection that to even discuss such things as Persons or being or things like that that you're having to import unbiblical categories Into biblical passages so on and so forth.

Mr. Stafford has enunciated a form of henotheism and of course We've always said that Jehovah's Witnesses dance with henotheism the idea of a major God with lesser gods Beneath him Rather than pure historic biblical monotheism, and I think some people are going to be a little bit surprised that we are going to have to deal with I'm going to have to present a.

Biblical.

Defense of absolute ontological monotheism. But I'm going to have to and I've done that with Mormons in the past. But I'm going to have to do so in this in this presentation as well, so I can guarantee you one thing.

You will have not seen a more intensely Disputed debate than this one. Mr. Stafford is going to be very well prepared. He's an excellent speaker. It's not going to be like some of the debates that I've had.

I can think of some debates. Salt Lake City. Where to borrow. To borrow. Rush Limbaugh's famous lines. I could have engaged that debate with half my brain tied behind my back, and it wouldn't have been much of a challenge.

That's not going to be the case here. Mr.. Stafford is not going to sit back and go wow never thought of that before. I'm not going to be up there doing cross-examination going so what do you think about John?

1644 and then there's silence. You hear crickets in the background you hear your arteries hardening, and then you hear someone say I don't know that's not going to happen. I can guarantee you that in fact when you once you sit down and this thing starts.

And we begin the presentations it will be non-stop and not only. Will the two participants be exhausted by the time this thing's over? Mentally and physically exhausted but the audience unless you like bring a crossword puzzle and turn your mind off your brain off and If you're or unless you're just completely you can care less about the issue of of the deity of Christ then You're going to be exhausted to you are you are really if you're really into it.

That's going to be a big night, so that's coming up on December 5th Friday. December 5th 2003 Hyatt Regency in Tampa Bay. Pray for that debate pray for me. I have got so much stuff between now, and then it is not even funny.

Just just more than I can even begin to attempt to explain to you, so I'm going to be my back is definitely against the wall so we could use your prayers and Just pray that nothing will get in way the way of the debate either.

There's a certain issue that just just pray the Lord will make everything work out so that everything Comes together and everything takes place in fact. I understand that Sam in Chicago wants to ask about the debate so we might as well go ahead and bring Sam on and is this is this is this Sam Sam the man well.