Christian vs. Mormon Debate Review

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:32

Well greetings welcome to the dividing line it is a a first for us we've been in what we call the big studio for about a year now

00:40

We've had people like John Cooper and Joe boot Join us in here, but they were joining us virtually not in in person and we have live

00:53

Human beings other than rich and I in this room. It's sort of weird and shocking

01:00

They're sort of weird and shocking too, but that's a whole nother story. I don't have to get into that, but I'm Joined today some of you have seen the graphic behind me.

01:09

You've seen the graphic on on Social media a debate took place was it two weeks ago now about two weeks ago now

01:20

At Well, it's the church that we we rent anyways. I've actually done a debate there in in 1995 you guys

01:31

You were three. You're three. All right. There you go. All right, so a long long time

01:36

You know what looks pretty much identical to the nothing's changed really at that point in time, but Daniel Constantino Oscar Dunlap are well,

01:49

I suppose I was I was gonna be proud to say our deacons at apology until Daniel showed up with his knees showing so but I guess

01:58

I'll still have to say that You're you're now gonna have the same experience that that Jeff had you really really are

02:05

Except Jeff showed up in plaid jammy pants. So that's I'm not sure which is worse. But anyway

02:14

Anyways, these two young men are from apology at church said they may slip once in a while and Call me pastor

02:20

James because that's what I'm called around there generally, but a debate took place that I moderated and It was on the subject well

02:31

You can see the title on what authority should we believe? but I Don't I I don't even know how to describe exactly what the topic ended up really being when you dig into it

02:45

And we're gonna be digging into it today on the program. We're playing some clips from it responding to some material

02:50

And hope that it will be very useful to everybody in in the audience But let me start off you guys

02:58

What in the world got you in a situation where you all number months ago came to me and you're like, hey

03:05

We've met these Mormon guys. And what would you think about moderating a debate?

03:11

How'd that how'd that come about? Yeah, well we do Weekly every other week we do evangelism as apology at church

03:17

So we'll go to local wards where the Mormons kind of meet on Sundays and well, I'm loving yeah, that's what we hear

03:23

That's what we hear all the time. I'm loving we're just all in this together. Yeah. Yeah. No, so we go out

03:29

We we stand on the sidewalk. We try to have friendly conversations. We invite them in we say hey like we love you guys Can we can we talk and so we went to a ward?

03:37

And we met Hayden there one of the gentlemen we debated and he recognized are you guys from apology?

03:42

And he said You guys come to the one last year where they're gonna have the

03:50

Little singing thing at the word across in the temple. Yes. I did. I was there and and remember there were more of us

03:55

Yes, there was more of us. Yeah, there are more apologians than there were Mormons Yeah, we went there so like you guys aren't gonna like start making noise

04:03

No, we're not gonna do you know? Yeah, so it's all love but we're there to preach the gospel

04:08

So we got in a conversation with him me and him ended up exchanging numbers. We Just had a bunch of good conversations

04:15

Oscar and Matt started a podcast and I said, hey, we're having good conversations How would you guys like to do this on a podcast kind of style?

04:23

We did that and then they actually came to us with the idea of a debate I think they might have been thinking podcast, but me and Oscar were like we're gonna do this the right way

04:30

Yeah, we've seen it done the right way. So yeah, they they were thinking The same style that we had we're sitting in the room and we're having a conversation everything like well

04:38

Let's just do that but have it like a formal debate as far as like timing and moderator and things like that We're like we're gonna do a debate.

04:44

We're gonna do it And so I got a little more than they were expecting So from those those there were three to our conversations that we have with them kind of just fleshing out all these

04:54

Differences theological differences and and we just kind of camped on on the central focus was was what's our ultimate authority from there?

05:02

We came up with a debate title. Okay, so let me go back just a little bit before that How did how did you end up at apology?

05:11

Well, I'm born and raised in America's finest city, San Diego No, so I'm born and raised.

05:17

I'm going to raise San Diego and I've always just been into apologetics and I remember there was a point in my faith where I was like I have to do more with this than even just the youth in my church and the people around me

05:28

So I literally just found Jehovah Witnesses on the street and started talking to them and I didn't know what I was doing And I said, okay,

05:34

I have to be more diligent about this So I started looking up videos on people evangelizing and there was a recommended one and it said pastor confronts

05:42

Jehovah's Witness And I clicked on it. It was Jeff Yep, yep, right.

05:48

Yeah, and No, well that was about From watching that video.

05:55

It took us about a year and a half two years to get to apologia Okay, so I I started digesting all of Jess content and then stumbled into you and then cross paths

06:05

Started just digging into a lot of that and then what happened was is we realized it's time for us to leave this church before Kovac happened

06:12

We actually came out here to visit before Kovac even happened and we're like, let's let's move out here And then Kovac hits and we said let's wait.

06:19

You moved to go to a church. We yeah Yeah, we moved we moved to go to a church to a lot of people my grandpa

06:26

Larry told me he's like There's churches all over San Diego Block yeah, he's like, what do you what do you and so I had

06:32

I had explained to my grandpa, you know Why we felt when moving to a church was important for our family for our foundation for us growing as Christians And so we moved out here for apology.

06:41

Oh So you couldn't possibly have an interesting story. Is that right? Right? My story is quite interesting.

06:50

So for me Nearly 10 years

06:56

I spent as a Hebrew is a light about nine years spend the Hebrew is a light and This is kind of a whole journey coming to apologia.

07:03

So 18 I become a Hebrew is a light. I kind of get wrapped up into these teachings

07:08

And I would say what was your background before that before that I grew up in church

07:13

But really a nominal a nominal Christian foundation more cultural more cultural.

07:19

Absolutely, right? We didn't do any reading of the Bible and it seems to be a lot of the Hebrew Very very soft foundation as far as scripture goes in any kind of doctrinal positions, right?

07:30

So I hadn't heard the word apologetic my whole time being a Christian not one didn't know anything about it

07:35

So so when these these views started to challenge my views I had no defense whatsoever

07:41

I was totally defenseless and because As well as that I would say I was not

07:46

I wasn't born again and so now all of these these These thoughts that I'm having concerning racial issues and things like that, right?

07:55

They they they kind of just fit right into that void into it Right that that wasn't being filled by proper doctrinal teaching.

08:03

So I spend from 18 to 22 I'm a

08:10

Hebrew and then You the first time I ever heard your name was a conversation that you had with the elder of that organization

08:18

Which was GFCC and that conversation just blew my mind So first you guys you guys had two two programs that you did and one of them one of them was much more of a formal

08:27

Debate style. So the first conversation really just like okay. This is different. I've never seen anything like this

08:32

The second one when it was the formal debate style that really is what hit me and it really sent shockwaves to that whole community

08:40

And so we watched that me and my wife watched that and we were just blown away I felt like we didn't know what to say and and part of it was because it's not like we knew exactly

08:49

We didn't know the position. We didn't know what it was We didn't know what reformed Christianity was or they didn't know anything like that So we just took it in and said that looked really bad

09:03

And in these positions that we're holding to can be questioned and can be challenged

09:08

And so we walked away from that asking questions like, okay Well, maybe we aren't

09:13

I have a stronger footing as we think we did three years later All of this fleshed out in just in me and I feel like God really used that as a means of me coming to salvation

09:25

So three years later, I become a Christian after just some just God working miraculously in me I watched it again when

09:31

I became a Christian and it made more sense I totally blew my mind. I thought your eyes were open, right?

09:37

I'd open up the door to apology and to Bodhi Balcombe car wash all these guys that I started watching after that and shortly after we moved to Arizona and I When you say

09:48

Bodhi, I'm sitting here thinking about just a few years ago, I was in Zambia and He tried to get a debate with the local imam and the imam backed out right toward the end

10:00

So Bodhi role -played the imam And we did this debate for the students there at African Christian University Wow, and I just remember sitting

10:10

And in the seat while he's doing his presentation. I'm looking up and he just blocks out the

10:16

Sun I mean, I mean, I'm just like man.

10:21

I hope he doesn't get violent He is a big because I remember I think it was back in 2016

10:27

I got a text message at like 555 in the morning I'm like what on earth and I pick up my phone

10:34

It woke me up and it was Bodhi and he had sent me a picture and he had just won the super heavyweight

10:42

Trans -american jiu -jitsu championship and he sends me a picture at 555 in the morning.

10:48

I'm like, oh wow. Okay So anyway, so you see as I mentioned so you guys have come from some interesting perspectives.

10:55

You're now at Apologia We do a lot of evangelism you see Jeff out there and Luke out there and that exact of course is

11:02

I'm not sure if he ever gets home and right, you know, so on so forth and so You are reaching out to Mormons.

11:10

We've always had a real interest in reaching out to the LDS I mean first time I ever laid eyes on Jeff Durbin as a clean -shaven skinny little kid

11:22

Was outside the Easter pageant in in Mesa and So that's always just been a part of things our

11:30

East Valley used to be primarily Mormon But it's really not any longer, but there's still a lot of people out there

11:35

So so you get this debate going and you you start telling me about what you were

11:45

Encountering what you were being told and I'm like man things have changed

11:51

Things have changed. So what people what but people need to understand is What you're gonna hear from the

11:57

Mormons here if if you if I grabbed some of these books up. Let me start with these then we'll dive into the video because it's gonna take us a while anyways, but When I first started studying

12:08

Mormonism and you guys could tell these are not young books They're rather well -marked. In fact, you can you can see my my my teachings

12:17

Thing here has all sorts of marking all the way through this was this is literally the the in fact, you can see the spines broken

12:26

This was the book that I learned so much of this is teachings the Prophet Joseph Smith Joseph Fielding Smith Bruce R.

12:33

McConkie, of course Mormon Doctrine Gave a track to Bruce R. McConkie outside the general conference once Doctrine salvation

12:40

Joseph Fielding Smith is a three -volume set. This is the first volume of Doctrine Salvation and Articles of Faith by James Talmadge This especially this particular one

12:52

You could buy a set of books for every missionary before they go on their mission and The only one

13:00

I forgot to grab and I shouldn't grabbed it was another one called a marvelous work and wonder by LeGrand Richard I'm talking about it.

13:06

Yeah, and so these four fifth one if I had grabbed marvelous work and wonder these five

13:12

I Could talk to 14 year olds and they'd know these books and they'd know the theology in these books and they believed that these men were apostles and that they could they could receive latter -day revelation and that they had apostolic authority and They recognized that their priesthood authority if they if they were 14

13:38

They didn't they wouldn't only have they don't have their they'd only have the Aaronic and not the Melchizedek priesthood but Their priesthood authority was dependent upon those people

13:48

And you just you you would not find someone questioning McConkie You wouldn't find someone questioning

13:55

Joseph Fielding Smith. These are these are these are apostles of God now you

14:02

I Pull out Mormon doctrines and read something to some 19 year old

14:09

Mormon kid today. He could be wrong about that. Yeah, it's it You know, it's the spirit can testify to me just as much as you can testify to Brother McConkie who's of course dead and gone now

14:22

So things have changed amazingly I would say it was easier for us to deal with Mormonism in the 1980s

14:30

When I first started dealing with it, then it is dealing with it today For the same reason that dealing with any type of form of liberalism is much harder than dealing with a form of Conservatism because at least in the conservative perspective

14:43

There is a claim being made right we can deal with this we can determine whether this is true or whether this is false

14:49

Once it becomes subjective then it's just it's like nailing jello to the wall, which is an unenjoyable experience

14:56

Yeah, which makes me say if you guys did that if you guys did for six hours What we listen to in that debate then you've got considerably more patience than I actually have

15:08

We we just went out this past Sunday and it's hard to get people to talk to you as it is Yeah, this lady talks to us and she's like I'm proud of you guys

15:15

And and I'm like, do you understand what we're saying about your church? She's like no, it's okay like we're the same like we both believe and so we try to have a conversation with her and we

15:26

We we dealt with some points, but she ended up like just saying yeah I'm proud of you guys and it's okay and we're

15:32

Christians too and I'm like, right right in those days when the missionaries were meeting With people this is that I think this is one thing has changed in those days the missionaries are meeting with you at that time the average

15:42

Southern Baptist Church had 274 members in an average week 273 Southern Baptist became

15:48

Mormons and when the missionaries to meet with you Well, the very first things they shared with you was the first mission

15:54

Yeah, and the claims Joseph Smith that all those churches are corrupt the creeds abomination There's only one one church

16:00

Church of Lamb Church the devil that's what the Book of Mormon says and That was they grew

16:06

Yeah massively during that time period and then Gordon Hinckley came along Yeah, and I believe

16:12

Gordon Hinckley was the turning point the downward turning point for Mormonism We asked her about those quotes that you just said about the first vision and the

16:21

Church of the devil and she said I believe If Joseph Smith was alive today, he wouldn't believe that Like he wouldn't he wouldn't believe that there is

16:30

I don't I spoke with over 5 ,000 LDS missionaries between Salt Lake City and and and and Mesa none of them before 2010 at the earliest would have ever said anything

16:46

Never would never even crossed their mind. But now I'm hearing it all the time

16:52

And it's stunning in those six hours Doing them very rarely. Was that even a part of the discussion?

16:58

Yeah, they would throw their prophets under the bus and back them up and they could be false prophet I didn't stop

17:04

Mormonism that didn't that doesn't mean Mormonism is false if all of our prophets are false I'm like, well, that's your foundation

17:10

That is the only foundation and in fact from a proof from a priesthood perspective If someone like Brigham Young who has been thrown under the bus repeatedly by the by the leadership of the church

17:20

Yeah in the past ten years. Yeah If he did not what if he was not able to pass on the priesthood authority nobody

17:27

No, and it just doesn't seem to me that most of them even any longer value the claim

17:33

That we have a priesthood that no one else. Yeah, that's that seemingly has has gone by the way

17:39

That's not a part of the conversation. No, that's it. Yeah, that was pretty amazing So so what

17:44

I'm saying folks for those of you just listening and listening in Mormonism has changed Tremendously over the past 20 years and just to give you an example

17:54

You just said you struggle to get someone to stop and talk always always when we first When we first went to the general conference the first time we went there.

18:04

It was me Mike Beliveau and one of the guy and The one of the guy we trained on the drive up bad move

18:19

Poor guy, I think he's got a tick to this day. He really really does because within an hour I heard

18:26

Yeah He is backed up against the the wall and there's a feeding frenzy of Mormons around him

18:32

And so I've waited in there and got him out of there and he sat in my back pocket the rest of the day That was not the way to do it.

18:38

But the point is the point is from the time we walked up to that gate

18:45

Until we left that evening We were talking constantly There was a line of people

18:52

Patiently standing waiting to talk to us They wanted to do that and now as I I know

18:58

I've been to the the Easter pageant in the past Before they stopped it for a while You can't you almost have to trip people.

19:05

Yep to get him to stop that is how much things have changed and I think it has to do with if you think you are actually a part of the one true church that Has the one authority from God and the full revelation from God and God is still speaking through your prophets

19:20

You're gonna you're that's gonna determine how you approach other people Yeah, really is and I just don't think most of those people really believe that no

19:28

They would say we're all part of the same church and we don't believe in the 1980s. Nobody said that nobody said at all

19:34

Okay. Anyways, we have gone 19 minutes with all the background stuff like that and I'm not sure how far we're gonna get through this

19:40

But anyways, the guys have provided me with some some clips that I I have a really neat super -duper program here

19:48

That has just allows me to throw them in there and time index them So we're gonna look at a couple of these things now.

19:55

Let's be honest There wasn't a whole lot specifically about Mormonism in this debate there was no positive presentation of the authority of Joseph Smith The accuracy of the

20:10

Book of Mormon Joseph Smith's prophecies a Continuing revelation today in a in a concrete sense.

20:18

Yeah, nothing like that at all No, it was very much focused solely upon. Well, it's sometimes upon Calvinism.

20:26

Yeah Had that come up during had that been a central aspect of the conversations and on the webcast.

20:32

They've been they've been trying to I They've been trying to understand from theology and Calvinism and I felt like we

20:39

Explained it to them in such a way where they didn't have to come up and say some of the things they said It's something that was like man. We told you that's not what we believe

20:46

You know, you're saying that anyways, but that has been something that they've said. Hey, yeah, we want to understand your position more We know you guys believe this.

20:52

Is it true that you guys don't believe this? So we had probably about an hour conversation on the idea of Reform Theology.

20:58

But yeah, that was just well You've got to remember that in the LDS temple ceremony and it was this was a bigger element of it in the past It's gone through numerous

21:08

Revisions over the past 30 years. In fact, I remember the first time I forgot what year it was when they closed down all the temples and They changed.

21:18

Yeah the ceremony from 90 minutes long to 60 minutes long that's cutting out a third of what was there and remember most

21:25

Mormons felt that what was in in the Endowment ceremony is a part of divine revelation.

21:31

So you got a rid of a third of divine revelation. Yeah and Again, I'm not sure if you're familiar with this but one of the reasons people a lot of Mormons and this may have changed but a lot a lot of Mormons want to go

21:44

Through the Salt Lake Temple is they still use actors in the Salt Lake Temple in the old temples that they are

21:49

They were all done. Everything was done by actors, but now in all the other temples they use video And so they had to change the movies that were being shown in all of the temples when they cut it from 90 minutes down to 60 minutes and I I believe there's been at least two more revisions since then well and a lot of offensive stuff's been taken up but the point is the devil is

22:10

Represented as in the LDS temple ceremony as presenting what sounds to Mormons like Calvinism.

22:17

Yes Okay, so when they hear that there's just an automatic Association with with with with all of that.

22:24

Oh, I know where that's coming from, you know, and that does obviously Slow people down from hearing what the

22:30

Word of God has to say, but the Spirit of God can get through all of those things So anyways, let's get to this and make sure all this is gonna work.

22:37

Let's start off with the There were three problems. They presented the problem of interpretation the logical problem and the problem of canon so let's look at the problem of Interpretation and what

22:52

I've got to do is get right over there and go like that Tonight we will focus on three main problems with Sola Scriptura Anyone these even alone the problem of interpretation the logical problem and the problem of canon starting off with the problem of interpretation

23:11

When our opponents say the Bible says what they should be saying is our interpretation of the

23:17

Bible says However, our opponents will do all they can to avoid this by taking themselves out of the equation so instead

23:32

Well going to pretend that the rest of us are interpreting So is it to say they merely acknowledge what the

23:39

Bible says and they are not interpreting it But what they really acknowledge is what they think it says

23:44

They seem to presuppose that they are the elect who can see this perfectly clear message of Scripture because God Okay, so you're that you're the this happened over and over again, yes, you're the elect and you have this perfect interpretation of Scripture and so it doesn't seem in their mind to to be the concept that If God has spoken with clarity in Scripture Yeah This can be known and if if I don't know it perfectly that does not mean that there is not

24:18

Actually a revelation that is objectively true to begin with exactly. So everything is focused upon their knowledge and Interpretation.

24:27

That's why they're they're so hesitant to say is anything infallible whatsoever. Yeah That they can actually know.

24:33

Yeah, and so it All through this and I really hope that this that we can clear this up somehow because It was working just fine beforehand that that's that's the the way that things like this work technology works because this becomes central all the way through the

24:55

The discussion and so they have the problem interpretation Let me see if by going to a different clip

25:03

You know if it does then we're just got to look at the titles and go from there Yeah, oh, I don't want to bring the entire thing over there, but it's a logical problem

25:11

This is when our opponents say that the Bible is true because the Bible says the Bible is true Okay Do you say that the

25:18

Bible is true simply because the Bible says it's true or are they functioning again on?

25:26

the idea That we have to start down here and reason upward

25:33

To what to what must be true about God? Yeah, you know Understand why

25:39

Mormon struggle with this if your God is an exalted man that you have no trend that you have no ground for That was a point.

25:46

I Really wanted to take on this is your God Isn't infallible your

25:53

God isn't infallible and so therefore the revelation from your God is not something that will be infallible and so I think they really struggle with us saying

26:01

God has Spoken and what he's spoken is infallibly true And we can take him on his word because their view of God hinders any comprehension of that well not only that see from our perspective

26:13

God could make a perfect revelation of his will to mankind and It would be perfect whether anyone understood it or not he could he could just sit back and go well there

26:23

It is do with it what you will he didn't yeah, but he could but the problem is ontologically

26:31

When you say that God men and angels are all the same species, yeah

26:37

When you say now, I I've had Mormons say in the past Well, maybe

26:43

Elohim was the Redeemer figure on his planet. So maybe he was the Jesus figure on his planet

26:49

So maybe he never did sin but early LDS leaders raised

26:54

The possibility and every Mormon has to admit. Okay, if you become a god, yeah

27:01

Were you once a sinner? so There's your there's you did you want it?

27:06

Well, we we asked him in the podcast. I asked Jacob I said right now Ontologically speaking.

27:12

Is there any difference between you and God? He said no, we're the same, right? And that's and that's what they believe and God's an embryo.

27:18

That's exactly that's exactly what they believe and so it does it hinders there It doesn't hinder it. It means they have no foundation.

27:24

Yeah for Transcendent story realities. Yeah, which is when they they asked us and I don't know if we put it on thing

27:30

I put it in here, but they ask us in cross -examination Do you believe the Bible is true because it says true and I start off my answer by saying

27:35

I believe God as creator Has the right to determine what issue so there's this there's this presupposition that they're not holding on to right that really gives weight to The whole argument because they don't they don't believe it

27:45

And so and I'm for the only unfortunate thing about the way that we did the debate was they never had to define for the audience

27:52

What their doctrine of God is in the first place unless you know and to be honest with you

27:57

I know what Mormons used to believe But I can't necessarily be certain anymore

28:03

That what is found in all these books and was taught by Joseph Smith and expanded upon by Brigham Young and and all the rest of us

28:10

I I don't know what that's where they're coming from and not any longer But so what what people need to understand what everybody needs to understand is that in?

28:20

Mormonism God men and angels are all of the same order of being they're just at different levels of exaltation and so Man has the potentiality of becoming a god or an angel depending on whether you're sealed in the temple and etc etc and so ontologically on the foundation of being

28:41

There is no ground in Mormonism for transcendent reality so in other words If a

28:48

Mormon can believe that God became God by obedience to gospel ordinances and principles

28:55

Without ever going But gospel ordinances and principles have to have a ground There has to be something that can give them reality and being right and if you push on Mormonism Eventually, they say well, that's just not a part of revelation or we can't answer things like that But in reality they have answered those exactly what happened those guys

29:16

They actually have a different view of God entire So when we had this conversation with them

29:21

One of them believes that God is the head of a council of gods But he's always been God and the other one believes

29:27

Yeah The other one he says it's not necessary that I believe that God was a man So that he he rejects that and the other one believes that God was a man on another planet

29:36

Possibly and that he ascended to God but both of them would say God must he bet must obey eternal law

29:43

And if he ceases to do so he ceases to be God, okay That's Mormon, but but I don't know

29:51

You Could believe that God it was a man who lived on the planet that circles a star named

29:57

Kolob because LDS scripture says that right but then upon his

30:04

Upon his having spirit children, then he becomes the head of a council of gods, which are his offspring

30:10

So you could believe both of those and interpret those in such a way as to make them fit But I cannot see how you can possibly be a

30:18

Mormon read the King Follett funeral discourse and say Elohim has always been a god.

30:25

Yeah But and so they don't make the creator creation distinction that we write. Of course, and so that's why it's their position

30:32

I think falls completely but we pushed them several times and they would say our church doesn't take a stance on that We don't have an answer to that and and that happened and I encourage people go watch the the podcast that happened multiple times

30:44

They're like, oh, we don't take a stance on that. And so it's like, all right Well and see and I just I just want everybody to understand

30:50

I have stood with countless Mormons from aged men to twelve -year -old boys who defended the assertion that God was once a man and with this is part of the eternal law of progression and this is a part of divine revelation

31:12

And this is this is what the one true church teaches and you must accept this. In fact

31:19

A story I've told many times I'll be I'll be brief Was elder Hollywood there was there was one year.

31:26

Let's see. No, that's riches face over there there was there was one year where there was this one missionary that would be down at the main corner during the

31:33

Easter pageant and He literally had a badge that elder Hollywood that wasn't his name

31:39

But he had had one made that had that because you know Hollywood and he was tall good -looking young kid and pretty full of himself and one night he and I really got into it and he was he was head and shoulders above me and much taller than me and he just really got going and he started getting louder and louder and there's all sorts of people around this that can hear this and He gets in my face and I remember him, you know, like down looking down at me and he says and Someday, I'm gonna be a god and you are gonna worship me about that loud and it's like what those sit in one of those situations where Everything freezes in place and everything's silent everyone has heard everything was said because you could just see the looks on people's faces as They're looking at this guy going.

32:35

Did he just say that out loud like that and He's even stopped and he sort of realized

32:42

And in fact the next night apologized not with not withdrew what he said But a child apologized for getting upset and I I had told that story for years and about ten years later

32:53

I'm standing outside the temple in Salt Lake City and Here this guy comes walking up to me. No, and I sort of look at him

33:00

Remember me and I said elder Hollywood Yeah, it wasn't a

33:06

Mormon anymore Wow wasn't a Mormon he wasn't a Christian either. Yeah, but he wasn't a Mormon anymore and so but but the point is that was not even disputable and and you read any of these books that articles of faith morals

33:23

There is no question about what Mormon doctrine was and now today it's just a grab bag and I I just have to wonder if the fact that the

33:36

Mormon testimony has always been so Subjective was not just a a poison that could not long be be be resisted

33:44

Yeah, and the result is tremendous confusion but 30 years ago this debate would have included a defense of the

33:53

Book of Mormon Assertion of Joseph Smith and prophethood the continuing priesthood the authority of the church and All that stuff was almost like I wonder if we can get through this without ever mentioning it

34:04

They had 15 minutes of opening statement and they I think I timed it like a minute and a half of actually

34:09

Presenting what they believe it was really quick. It was at the end. Here it is It was very much at the end and it was very much not meant

34:16

To communicate to anyone in the audience what the real specific differences are in regards to the nature of God Which is what all of this comes back to yeah, all of it comes back to this.

34:26

So, okay, so We have the logical problem then we had the problem of Canon and this was this is where I would expect there to be some type of a

34:41

Positive argument on their part for continuing revelation But it was just it was basically just no you can't they basically borrowed

34:51

Roman Catholic argumentation against Almost verbatim

34:58

So that had happened before yeah if you look at if you look at the comment section for that video and in some of the interaction online or All of the

35:07

Roman Catholics and all the Orthodox. I'm like, oh, yeah Yeah, the Mormons won and it's because they use their argumentation, right? And and there was no positive presentation on their side right from their opening statement.

35:17

It was a rebuttal of Calvinism, right? They were not they were purposely not presenting their view

35:23

Purposely going entirely on an attack of something that we didn't present this which didn't actually Address the issue at hand, right?

35:31

Well when you got up, that's that's what you said, right? We're supposed to you know, respond to this side's position, but nothing has really been presented

35:38

So we're gonna have to go with something else here in essence and that and that's true I hopefully people can view the view the debate and see that for themselves

35:45

But the whole issue of canon It's astonishing to me to hear them

35:54

Borrowing Rome's arguments because that cannot work for their perspective

36:00

Joseph Smith rejected Roman Catholicism the early

36:07

Mormons rejected Roman Catholicism and They understood the concept of the

36:16

Bible as the Bible and then initially What Joseph Smith wants to do is to add to the canon the

36:27

Book of Mormon Yeah, it's not till later on he starts getting this, you know getting revelations on a regular period of that makes people really respect me

36:35

This is pretty cool type of an idea and you start getting this Constant, you know, like like like section 114 where where just Joseph Smith is

36:43

I is naming people to go on a mission the next spring and Yeah, then unfortunately they die before the next spring and so you don't you don't get that kind of stuff anymore

36:54

There's been a clear and obvious change over time but it was initially based on the idea that yeah, you've got the

37:00

Bible and now you've got the Book of Mormon and The whole idea of well you can't know what the books of Scripture were because you don't have an ultimate authority, etc, etc, etc, and it's like they

37:16

That by by utilizing that form of argumentation. They're basically saying Our leaders never got this, right?

37:23

Yeah, we've we've had we've literally had to come up with something better than our leaders who are allegedly apostles and prophets general authorities

37:32

What have they been a hundred and ninety some -odd Apostles since the founding of the

37:37

LDS Church and nobody until us has figured this out Yeah, the internet came along and now we've got it.

37:42

What so that's astonishing. So I invited I invited a Mormon that I that I knew an ex -bishop and he came and he sent me a long email afterwards and he was like Well, you guys won simply by virtue of the fact that they didn't present

37:57

They didn't present Mormonism. Yeah, it's like he said exactly what you said There's nothing about the the prophets and apostles nothing about their their revelation, right?

38:05

They presented something entirely different than what they're claiming to be and so it's like when we're when we're approaching this

38:12

That's what me and me and Daniel are like We wonder what they're gonna say because as we as we had these conversations we recognized

38:18

Well, this is not you guys are so quick to give up on your own revelation And we're like we don't even know where you're gonna come from.

38:25

What are you actually presenting? So yeah that that made it really hard to hard to follow that.

38:31

Let me see if Let me see if I can get something to work here. And if like I said if it

38:37

Still bogs down on us. We'll just we'll just go with our own recollection and stuff. Let's let's see if this

38:44

Will will play for us here. He think is the ultimate authority. Our answer is this

38:51

God Is the ultimate authority and he can reveal truth to us directly the

38:57

Bible even teaches this He has not constrained himself to any amount of books on the earth today and and now

39:06

I can hear our opponents ready to jump up and say but Tell you something that contradicts the

39:11

Bible, but yeah Apologize. I imagine if we were hardwired it would probably be working

39:17

But we we decided to you know, go and get fancy and go wireless Yeah, that's a first shot at it.

39:23

So the ultimate authority is God But What is that what is that supposed to mean exactly yeah, and it's interesting even in that if you heard him

39:34

He said the ultimate authority is God even the Bible teaches this They did this a couple times in the debate where?

39:40

They would appeal to James 1 6 and they would appeal to the Bible when it was convenient for them And then as soon as it attacks their heresy, they just oh you can't trust the interpretation

39:48

But yeah, it's just subjective is if God tells you which we press them on the cross -examination God tells me that Pouring hot water on a baby is wrong.

39:57

So cuz God told me that that's that's wrong And then the question is well, what do you tell the Muslim? We tell someone else who says

40:02

God tells me this is right. It's purely subjective. And so it's it's yeah I don't know how they engage others.

40:09

In fact, that was one of the issues There was what can a Mormon say to other religions? That was one of the issues that you brought up in your in your closing statements

40:16

Yeah, and that's that's what is has changed so much. Yeah is

40:22

The way they dealt with other religions in the past Was to present and defend the concept of the prophethood of Joseph Smith The reliability of the

40:32

Book of Mormon the fulfilled prophecies of Joseph Smith, whatever it might be And it just makes me wonder if there has been so much information that's come out over the past few decades,

40:45

I mean I remember Again before you guys before you were born

40:53

When did I When did I say I started? Okay, so this would have been it well into the mid 80s.

41:01

Okay, so before before you guys were breathing air I went into the

41:07

Church Historical Department in Salt Lake City and I had a file number a microfiche file number and I was able to examine this

41:18

This thing and to take photocopies and it was Joseph Smith 1832 diary

41:24

Wow with the earliest It's the earliest Recording of what becomes the first vision.

41:31

There's no there's no two beings It's very different you can see the development over time of what took place, but it's in his own in his own diary and all back then

41:44

I would have to carry a notebook around and and No show people the photocopies and are like, where'd you get that?

41:51

I could be faked, you know So like that is a hey, there's there's the call number I this is where I got it from your own your own stuff.

41:58

I can go into my library now and pull out Published LDS works by LDS scholars over the past 10 years has all that stuff in it

42:08

Yeah, just a few years ago. They it was what three years ago They published pictures of the seer stone, which they had had in the library the whole time

42:16

Yeah, but I had many Mormons denied there was that's just anti -mormon propaganda blah blah blah

42:22

So much of that stuff is now available That I just wonder if that's why it's one of the reasons why they just do things completely differently now because back how can you now present

42:35

Joseph Smith as the The prophet. Yeah, how can you do as?

42:41

Joseph feeling Smith said in Doctrine salvation He said Joseph Smith was either a prophet of God divinely called and appointed or he was the biggest fraud in human history

42:50

Yeah, it's and they don't they they deny that that black -and -white

42:56

Category categorization, but they do not have the priesthood authority to disagree with an apostle right now.

43:01

That's the problem Yeah, it's a it's an epistemological survival mode They don't go into survival mode because once all of the doubt is cast on there on their foundation

43:10

They have to come up with something new because it just doesn't work then work Well, and it's and it's not gonna work to then just start casting doubt on everybody else's no

43:18

Now everyone's just left in the same muddle Yeah And what's interesting is I think what they were getting at with God is our ultimate authority is they're trying to tell people trust your

43:28

Own heart and let God speak to you. So we are presenting. This is God's Word the scriptures This is objective go to it and they're like, why don't you ask

43:35

God? Let God come to you and the scriptures tell us in Jeremiah that the heart is deceitfully wicked who can know it

43:40

So again, they're not they're not starting with the same presuppositions that we are that man has an inherent flaw

43:47

That we're radically corrupt that we need the the saving grace of God, which they would affirm that terminology But not in the way we believe it, right?

43:54

Yeah, and so I think what they're trying to do is they're trying to tell the audience like hey guys Like you don't need this Bible You don't need this hard this hard objective thing to stand on trust your own heart that God speak to you

44:04

And that's very subject and they're making those same claims about the Book of Mormon. You don't need that either That would not have come out of any

44:13

Mormons mouth In all those years out there. Yes, you would need the

44:18

Book of Mormon. Dr. Coven's pro -rate price because that is Well a third ago faith.

44:23

We believe the Bible be the Word of God as far as it's translated correctly Yeah, but the Book of Mormon is the most correct book of any book on earth.

44:29

Yeah, so That's what you that's what you would you would go for Let's let's let's see here

44:37

There was a I called this the the misuse of the London Baptist Confession of Faith the

44:42

Westminster Confession of Faith Due to the LDS lacking a meaningful anthropology and this was where they quoted from the section in chapter 1 of both

44:53

Westminster and London Baptist Confession that talks about the fact that the ultimate Proof for mankind the ultimate reason that we believe is

45:05

Because of the Spirit's testimony. I said see that that's what that's all we're saying. That's all we're saying and I was sitting back there and Look up until they started quoting me

45:15

I was Just stone face. I didn't do nothing

45:20

But when they did do and I'm not sure what shot that was because it's not the video I'm not sure who who got this shot but when they were doing the thing about Child baby rape or something like that again

45:32

A meme is showing me. I mean, he's going like this I was actually looking up the ceiling looking at the light stuff like that, but it was like, oh, please

45:42

I really really really wanted to jump in at that point and I and I honestly wondered if The reason they quoted me knowing

45:50

I could not respond was hoping I would jump in Because then they look like well see the other side

45:56

But what didn't didn't hold up there part of the conversation coming up to the debate You have to make sure that James doesn't jump in right are we agreed on that?

46:05

Yeah, so that we can start poking right exactly. That's exactly what they did. So I Heard that, you know,

46:10

I heard this being stated and I'm and I'm like All right, that they could they quoted it correctly but what they're not dealing with is

46:20

The fact that these are words being a directed directed to mankind and this confession says that mankind is dead in sin dependent upon Regeneration to even see and understand the things that the minds on the flesh hostility toward God those according to flesh can understand the natural man does not understand the things the

46:42

Spirit of God all the rest of this type of stuff and so the assertion that's being made by both the

46:48

London Baptist Confession Westminster confession is not that my Experience of the

46:54

Spirit's testimony is what makes it true. It is true Objectively and in and of itself and if it were not for the fallen condition of man and sin

47:07

No one would have any question about this. That would be obvious yeah, it's dealing with the reality that we live in a fallen world and therefore there is a necessity of The spiritual taking out our stone giving a heart of flesh that I mean radical

47:23

Changes of regeneration and hence the testimony of the Spirit We are we are dealing with an issue where we are in this fallen world and you know they can they can you know if they wanted to they could throw out quotes from the

47:36

Quran and they could throw out quotes from the Bhagavad Gita and and and and all sorts of religions out there and say who is to ever really know you have to Have this subjective feeling type thing and that would be very easy to do because it would be hard to point out the context

47:52

Of all of those different quotations now when you did that with the Quran with me I'm gonna tell you what what the context that was and I'm gonna point out that Here's someone who is ignorant of both the

48:05

Old and New Testaments. He knows they exist He called them the Torah and the Angeal But he didn't know what the content of them was and he confused the content of them and there's all this background stuff that needs

48:13

To be understood here. Yeah, so it's easy when you don't have Those backgrounds to throw stuff out and say oh, it's just all so confusing

48:20

But all this goes back to the idea that what the London Confession was saying the

48:26

Westerners confession was not saying That that subjective testimony of the Spirit is what makes the

48:32

Word of God true Yeah, it's necessary in our situation because of our fallen state

48:38

We live in a fallen world and it is also a part of sanctification

48:44

That is we were to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ And so we're to be growing in our understanding of the Word of God and that would include growing in our conviction of its truthfulness

48:53

I've said I've said many many times that over the years as I've been as I've had atheists and others attacking the validity of the

49:00

Word of God I can tell you that working through their

49:07

Their alleged contradictions has Strengthened my faith not because I ignored them but because I discovered where they had gone wrong

49:15

But I I can say that to you, but I can't transfer that to you. Yeah, sure

49:20

I can tell you that's been my experience and You can say wow, you know You've been this long time and you've dealing with a lot of different perspectives and so maybe that is helpful to you, but that experience is mine is not something

49:32

I can just Hand over to you and do something along those lines and we talked about that just our preparation

49:39

For the debate and all the conversation the hours of conversation Really put us in a position of honing in on our studies and in prayer and just seeking the

49:48

Lord in all of this And it's and it's been enjoyable on the backside not just actually partaking

49:55

But all that led up to it and how much it strengthened us in our faith And they really put on display what the

50:00

Bible says, right? Is that is that man cannot submit man cannot understand and that's what we've seen on full display

50:07

Let's look at a few of these others here, um, okay Since we're since it's choking on us at least

50:12

I have all the stuff here And so we can we can bring these things out. Sorry guys, if you're watching we honestly it was working just fine my gut feeling is that Apple play works really well initially, but if you have it sitting around for long periods of time you can end up with buffering issues

50:36

Right, right. Mm -hmm. Yeah, which is I all I have to say that is

50:41

Vista end of that argument Okay, another debate one This is why

50:46

I became a Mac guy. Anyway At one point It was said that these guys

50:56

Don't want you looking into the early church fathers. Yeah Because no

51:03

Competent historian would ever say that these people believed in soul sculpture.

51:08

Now. It's interesting the way they put it They left themselves a back door, which I think may have been purposeful is

51:15

You could I think they could argue. Well, what we meant was That no one would say that everybody in the early church

51:24

Every single person all the way up to today, which we don't claim either which we don't Yeah, we don't claim either exactly exactly but the reality is we've obviously

51:36

I've dealt with this subject for many many years and in fact have a Chapter in the book soul scripture that I think

51:44

Ligonier makes I read that right that documents very clearly that there were individuals in the early church that held to the ultimate authority of scripture as being the honest awesome being sufficient and so on so forth and You can actually trace that trace that through But it is the it is the eclipse of Soul scripture and the rise of a tradition that they would reject

52:14

Entirely yeah, I mean it's just amazing when you know when I think back to the the many sermons that I've read from Brigham Young and his compatriots in Utah in the in the

52:25

Journal of Discourses They have absolutely no nothing positive to say

52:31

About Roman Catholic tradition and and issues like that at all They came obviously

52:37

Mormon Mormonism's background is Protestantism not Roman Catholic sure and so that tradition that those people would have claimed they would they would reject

52:48

You know right off the top as being as being false But there are interesting parallels because it's

52:55

Rome that claims you need to have an ultimate internal interpretational Authority though I'm not sure given what they said that even at that point that they would be able to say

53:06

What Mormons used to say Mormons used to say because of the priesthood we have these men in the general authorities

53:13

Who can interpret not only the Bible, but the Book of Mormon doctrine covenants for a great price And they can give us latter -day revelation

53:21

I'm not sure if these guys would literally say that the

53:26

Twelve Apostles today that if they if the Twelve Apostles said This verse mean this verse in the

53:33

Book of Mormons means this that they would go That's that's it. They would say they give the

53:39

Twelve Apostles more weight They get more weight, but they even recognize that they are Fallible and that they can be wrong and so they have to take what their what their

53:49

Idea is is a collective witnesses, so you can use the prophets and apostles That's good But you also have to use your reasoning and then the main one out of there's about five

53:57

The main one is the spirit the witness is it's subjective main one is your heart But you have for example logic you have reason you have the prophets and apostles you have

54:07

Other things that exist out there that is the collective Witness to them and so they would give the apostles more weight

54:13

But they would say but the ultimate one is the spirit so if the spirit tells me that they're wrong Then I have to go with the spirit.

54:18

Let me let me tell you something straight up front here if these young men had walked up to Bruce R.

54:26

McConkie at a fireside at Brigham Young University in 1990 well 19 let's say 1985 whatever it was um

54:36

Because there was there was this thing that he he had there was this controversy he had some stuff He's at a fireside, but if they had walked up to Bruce R.

54:42

McConkie in some LDS context in those years and Had presented that viewpoint

54:50

I Can guarantee you his response would have been young men you either repent of your false teachings or you will be excommunicated next week and End -of -discussion

55:07

End -of -discussion No way because that is a fundamental overthrow of the priesthood hierarchy

55:14

Yeah, which is how the LDS Church maintains control of its theology and doctrine. Yeah, and That seemingly is disappearing.

55:24

Yeah, that's gone and that with that will will end any kind of Ability of the leadership to direct the church.

55:35

Yeah, which explains one thing to me as You may know I have well.

55:40

I'm not talking about Wade either, but I have friends up in Salt Lake City Who will send me?

55:46

News clippings about what's going on up there It is astonishing how purple Utah has become

55:53

BYU I didn't I don't know if I sent this to you rich, but BYU When you are logging for New students.

56:02

Mm -hmm will now allow you to choose some other gender than male and female. No way Brigham Young University the

56:10

Salt Lake City City Council is about as leftist as what you have in San Francisco Wow and I Have sat back going.

56:21

How can this happen in Utah? You have a gendered God for crying out loud He has a body of flesh and bone he has sex organs, yeah, he has he makes babies for crying out heavenly wife

56:32

Yeah, he has many heavenly wives. Yeah And how on earth but it just seems to me that it is this

56:39

Subjectivism that has always it's always been there. It was held in check when

56:45

Mormonism was primarily American you had strong leadership And you had the emphasis upon the priesthood authority

56:53

But but late 1990s everything changed yeah, and That once that is gone.

57:02

I've spoken with other Mormons that I knew back then and I know now and they're like They don't have an answer.

57:09

Yeah as to how things have changed so much Though I do remember I'm not sure if you were staying there or not but I remember staying at the

57:18

South Gate of the Mormon Temple and this elderly Mormon We are having a conversation and I found him quite interesting does he

57:26

I Could tell that he sort of stood back a little bit and looked at the church somewhat objectively.

57:33

Mm -hmm, and I remember this guy Saying Said up there and he pointed to Moroni up on Ron.

57:41

I got knocked down by the lightning bolt or whatever It was a couple years ago He points up to the top of the

57:47

Salt Lake Temple and he says in 20 years. There'll be a cross of them Wow, and I remember looking at him like What are you talking about?

57:57

But I think he saw before I did because he was in the church I think he saw the developments and the trends and the direction it was going

58:07

Before those of us outside would be able to see those things and so for me having started with elders

58:15

Reed and Reese in 1982 Okay, I look at this and If if they didn't say we're

58:25

Latter -day Saints, I wouldn't know it. Yeah, there'd be no way I could know it And that's how different they are

58:31

Right and just one more thing on the soil scripture because they made that claim twice in this debate and I was just astonished um,

58:38

I Gave two quotations one from Augustine in my opening and one from Athanasius and then

58:43

I could have given you 20 from Augustine And yeah, well then in my cross examination I pulled a different one from Augustine and I asked him

58:49

What do you think he means when he says? What more should I teach you than what we read in the apostles Holy Scripture fixes our rule of doctrine

58:56

Yeah, so that is plain. It's clear. It's it's I think whether he was consistent with that.

59:02

That's yeah. Yeah is the issue Yeah, it's what did he believe the about the authority of the scriptures? He believed that it was there the way we do the same way we do and so these these men are either

59:12

Misinformed heavily or they're being dishonest because the claim that no church father has ever believed in social

59:17

Torah is not I don't think anything is disputable. I gave you some and I asked him. What do you think?

59:23

And he told I think he said something like um Like he's saying it's reliable, but not really all the way there.

59:29

I'm like, I can't respond my time. It ended I wish I would have pressed more but yeah cross cross -examination is always a difficult a difficult thing.

59:36

Yeah So we had the soul scripture on the early church And the day don't want you to go look at the early church fathers.

59:43

Yes, we're actually More than happy if you would And see the people who did and did not believe it.

59:50

Yes, and what ended up as a result of that and then I'll have to try to remember this off of the top of my head here, but they quoted a statement that I made in the debate with Michael Brown in regards to Subjunct subjective knowledge of one's own calling in so and so on and so they were trying to create categories of Rational knowledge right spiritual knowledge.

01:00:16

They said rational knowledge. We can be wrong on a hundred percent. That's not even question Spiritual knowledge we can be certain of and so when you ask them.

01:00:23

Well, what's spiritual knowledge? Well, whatever God tells me which results in the idea that your spiritual knowledge has no rational element

01:00:32

Yes, which means it cannot be communicated to anyone else and hence cannot communicate a gospel message from one generation to the next

01:00:40

So when when when Jacob asked us he says I asked him How do you know point hot water and a baby is wrong?

01:00:46

He would have to say that that's not a rational claim There's no rational thought behind that. It's just a spirit telling him it could be completely irrational and it's fine

01:00:54

And so it's it's a hole for sure that they singing. Yeah it and again

01:01:00

It does explain now why Mormons 40 years ago and man,

01:01:06

I did start talking to Mormons 40 years ago. That's Sad It's good to think about but at the same time 40 years ago

01:01:16

Since what they wanted you to do Was to accept their claim of the authority of Joseph Smith's prophet hood

01:01:25

They could not be so Subjective as to do this because these guys never made those claims, right?

01:01:32

That was not and that's but I think this is why they're not right. Yeah, you can't you can't go there You can't go there.

01:01:37

You can't do it. Um During the cross X you asked can they truly know?

01:01:43

And in essence, that's where they made that distinction between rational and spiritual knowledge Which means all spiritual knowledge is what?

01:01:50

Irrational which is interesting because I asked him I say is it possible that Joseph Smith is a false prophet and they say yes

01:01:56

Okay, then I asked them Is it is it wrong for a pregnant mother to kill their baby and they say no, so they're more sure that it was

01:02:06

Yeah, it was wrong So what they're saying is they're more sure of abortion being wrong than Joseph Smith actually being a prophet and again

01:02:14

Yeah, no Mormon for ever Ever went ever went there

01:02:21

Let's see. Oh Then they actually did this this confused me because Y 'all had all these long conversations with them.

01:02:31

They actually Seemed taken aback when you said no, we are not all the children of God.

01:02:38

Yeah. Yeah, that was uh, that was fear That was all theater. Yes. Okay, we're getting a truck.

01:02:44

They wanted to Appeal to the audience emotional emotion. Yeah, they we had had these conversation.

01:02:50

I knew exactly where we stood but I think they're Pulling on the hard strings of it. Okay. Well, I wondered because I mean it's so obvious You are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

01:03:01

Otherwise, you're children of your father the devil I mean, it's and I know they take all of the creative language in the

01:03:08

Old Testament in a in a way that the Jews never did but I Get it, but they were they're good actors then.

01:03:15

No, it was it was there. It was there across the nation They're asking us Hayden asked do you guys believe that the

01:03:21

Bible teaches infallibly? We're not all children of God We say yes, and then the other Jacob steps in wait, wait, wait So you're saying right and we answer it.

01:03:28

We said yes as we're saying then he asked another question He says do you believe the Bible infallibly teaches that God doesn't want to save our people, right?

01:03:35

And we said yes He says wait, wait, wait, so you're saying yeah They knew they knew from beforehand that's what we believed it's which which

01:03:43

I have to simply point out to them Our people are sitting there going. Yeah Yeah, so you're not touching them at all

01:03:50

So all you're doing is you're playing to your side of the aisle

01:03:55

You're not trying to communicate with with our side. Yeah, and that's see that's what that's where things have changed

01:04:02

Back in the 80s when one Southern Baptist Church full of people per week is becoming

01:04:09

Mormon They're on the offensive. Yeah, they're on the offensive. They are completely on the defensive now

01:04:16

They are not on the effect. This is that is not an offensive presentation. That is not meant to actually

01:04:22

Establish the truth claims of the LDS Church. Yeah, if anything they need to understand that if they continue down this road

01:04:30

They will not be able to affirm any of the truth claims of the Mormon Church that have any rational content

01:04:36

I mean, they've given that up rational or historical content I I won't ask them I asked him about the abortion and they asked him about could you be a man and I said, okay

01:04:45

So you guys know those things for certain because the Spirit tells you and they say yes And I asked them is it possible that it's

01:04:51

Satan telling you that and not God and they said yes, right? So even then there's no certainty. It could be Satan and you can be completely deceived

01:04:57

So essentially there's no rational element to any of it No, right because they're on stinking sand right because everything can be doubted everything could be wrong

01:05:05

Yep, we've already we've already talked about what kind of Mormons say to other religions The answer would be absolutely positively nothing nothing.

01:05:11

I mean there can So you asked them you said I'm trying to remember how you put it you asked him.

01:05:18

Well, you asked him exactly that What could you say to a Muslim? Some person says this some person says why are you right? He said well, the

01:05:25

Spirit told me he said yeah He said the Spirit told me and the revulsion for what I have. It's just subjective. It's a subjective experience

01:05:31

But you like you said you can't place that upon anyone else. They don't have that experience So therefore it's not true to them.

01:05:36

And therefore there is no truth. I have to you know, I'm thinking back to KTKK radio in Salt Lake City and Debating when

01:05:50

I was on the Martin Tanner show Martin Tanner is a Mormon attorney. Okay, and In this little teeny studio you were with me, weren't you?

01:05:57

Okay So we're in this little teeny studio at night live on the air in Salt Lake City taking phone calls

01:06:04

Okay, so guess what all the phone callers are. Yeah so Martin Tanner is

01:06:10

The host LDS attorney You have two BYU professors in studio with me both in farms

01:06:18

Foundation of Ancient Research and Mormon Studies Versus me. Could you stack the deck any more greatly than that?

01:06:23

You couldn't possibly do so when I think of the Issues that were brought up the arguments that were had

01:06:35

These guys would have to say that everything we discussed was irrelevant They would not they would not have been able to repeat the arguments of anybody on that side at all because they weren't they were not

01:06:50

The the Mormons at that time were not emptying out of quote -unquote spiritual knowledge all rational historical meaningful

01:06:58

Elements at all, right, so they're making absolute truth claims when these guys they were they were yeah they were making absolute truth claims and they're and they're not anymore and so I I can see now

01:07:09

I The last the last debate that I had with a Mormon that Jason Wallace organized up there was at the

01:07:17

University of Utah and Helped me help me Dennis Potter was was with with a guy in a

01:07:25

LDS philosopher by name of Dennis Potter He walks in Yeah, he walks in he's got a backpack that says no war in Iraq and an earring

01:07:39

And I'm like It's this interesting and we were debating if I recall the fall of Adam had something to do with what

01:07:48

Adams fall and its consequences, yeah, and It was

01:07:57

Interesting and after the debate this Mormon that I had seen at a lot of the other debates didn't know who he was

01:08:02

He comes up to me And he says I need to tell you something he says

01:08:08

I need to ask you please Stop debating Mormon Wow He said

01:08:15

I've come to every debate We cannot debate you it does not make you right

01:08:22

But we don't have anyone who can debate you. This is not fair. Please stop debating

01:08:28

Mormons and interestingly enough That was the last debate Yeah, oh

01:08:33

I do remember the debate with Gilbert Sharks very very very well. I remember I remember

01:08:39

Jason Wallace This is you guys program, but but in this debate during the cross -examination

01:08:48

I Gilbert Sharks had written the truth about the Godmakers, so it was a rebuttal to the

01:08:54

Godmakers and So I'm asking him we were debating It was it was had something to do with John 6 the fall of man as I recall had something to do with the fall of man, so I'm in John 6 and Here's this little old man, and he's sitting there, and so I asked him a question, and this is the way he does

01:09:11

It gets quiet He leans up to the microphone. I Don't know and then sits back, so I asked him the next question

01:09:19

I Don't know At one point during the debate

01:09:25

Jason Wallace who was moderating during the break he leans over to me says Please don't kill the nice little

01:09:32

Mormon man during the debate in other words. Don't let him die He looks like he's dying.

01:09:37

I don't want to be remembered as the guy that made you know killed a little nice little Morgan so We but but there were people that believed that you should do debates back there.

01:09:46

Yeah, and now This is there's there's no plus the only reason they did this debate was to say we shouldn't be doing debates because if you really

01:09:55

Take their position 100 % there is no way of answering this debate outside of rejecting all

01:10:02

Rational knowledge yeah, and just creating this irrational category of spiritual knowledge, and that's it you know in our

01:10:09

QA I think probably the last thing that I said in the debate was There if they win we all lose right right if what they're saying is true

01:10:19

Which is even a funny thing to say given their stance? Yeah, then nothing is actually true.

01:10:24

Nothing could be known whatsoever, so so there's no positive presentation It's just saying you can't trust the

01:10:29

Bible and therefore you you can't trust anything nothing is trustworthy It's like well. What are you guys presenting? But why are you here and like you said that what you're claiming is there's no reason to ever do a debate because everything

01:10:40

It's true, yeah spirits of final authority in all things is what they said in their closing statement

01:10:46

Yeah, then you had the Anne Frank story so again clearly intended to pull heartstrings

01:10:56

You know it's sort of like the child rape stuff and everything else. Yeah, and during the

01:11:01

Q &A. I love apology for this thankfully someone did give a question

01:11:07

They do an alley -oop Jerry was it Jerry good I not know who it was, but I'm like oh good.

01:11:16

There's the question It needs to be asked I made sure that it got asked yeah, and that was did

01:11:22

Elohim Your your God have foreknowledge of what was gonna happen to Anne Frank spirit daughter

01:11:29

Yeah, before it's your dog before before he created this world. How did they how did they answer the answer was yes?

01:11:36

They just said yes, and that was it and you're like okay Do you guys have a response and then we pointed out okay?

01:11:41

We hope you guys see what's happening is this whole time. They've been look at these this evil God look at this

01:11:46

Calvinist of God He's so evil because he knew what this is gonna happen He did it with a purpose which I think makes our answer better and to their response was well

01:11:55

Elohim you was gonna happen and instead of not creating her he created her anyways And he didn't put no purpose to it.

01:12:01

He just let it happen right and it's important to understand the difference very very important Unfortunately the vast majority of people in the audience

01:12:09

Would not have sufficient background and understanding of who Elohim is who? And and again

01:12:15

I can't even be a certain of the orthodoxy of these guys understandings of these things either because The distinction between Elohim and Jehovah by the way is due to a statement of the first presidency in the early 1900s,

01:12:30

I think it was 1911 or 1907 what was somewhere around there? Anyway early decades of the of the 20th century and That was just a statement of the first presidency

01:12:41

They may not even accept the validity of such a statement because Joseph Smith clearly in in his materials

01:12:49

Does not differentiate between them the way the modern church does yeah So they might they might not even accept that but I don't even begin to understand

01:12:59

How a Mormon can have a specific theology? that Would explain how

01:13:06

God would have foreknowledge of anything How does how does God have foreknowledge of anything in Mormonism?

01:13:11

I don't know yeah Yeah, they said we uh we we we define foreknowledge different than you guys, but then they didn't explain it well right

01:13:20

You know exactly I think it's more predictive than it is actual knowledge

01:13:25

That is it's it can't be based upon a decree no and because they reject that they reject that there is no

01:13:33

Fundamental ultimate purpose that is being accomplished right at least in Mormonism the ultimate purpose was exaltation to Godhood and the continuing of the eternal law of progression, but I don't even know that if that's

01:13:46

Central in their perspective either the church didn't take a lot of stances on things what they told us many times and even even the

01:13:54

Things that the church. I mean even them themselves some of the things that they took a stance on they disagreed

01:14:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's why you know I I just I think back on the days when

01:14:08

I I know there were a number of times that I had this This black camera bag and the first years that we went out to Mesa or Salt Lake.

01:14:19

I didn't have to carry anything with me Because there wasn't any disagreement as to what

01:14:25

Mormonism believed, but then we started seeing in the 90s You know when

01:14:31

I first started saying Mormonism they had like 3 .4 million members and Within a number of years they doubled in size well

01:14:39

You have to you have to catechize all those people you have to instruct all those people you have to teach all those people and I started seeing a

01:14:48

Diminishment in Understanding and so I eventually would have these books

01:14:55

You can sort of tell in in my because people would say well I'm not sure we believe that and and but when you pull it out

01:15:03

Especially when McConkie was still alive And it's well, you know, it's right here or in here the

01:15:09

King followed funeral That's you know, God and exalted notice where it opens notice where the binding is broken

01:15:15

God himself as once as we are now is an exalted man sits enthroned in yonder heavens That is the great secret If the veil were rent today and the great

01:15:21

God who holds the world in its orbit who upholds all worlds all things by his power Which make himself visible I say if you to see him today

01:15:27

You would see him as a like a man in form like yourselves and all the person image and every very form is a man For Adam was created a very fashioned image and likeness of God and received instruction from and then

01:15:36

I'm going to tell you how God Came to be God. We've imagined suppose that God was God from all eternity I will refute the idea and take away the veil so that you may see

01:15:44

Is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God to know that we may converse with him as one Man converses with another and that he was once a man like us

01:15:52

Yeah the God himself the father of us all dwelt on earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did and I will prove from the Bible I will show it from the

01:15:58

Bible and what a lot of people need to understand is that historically if you look at all of the publications of the first presidency of the

01:16:08

LDS Church the most commonly cited Material from Joseph Smith outside of the

01:16:16

Book of Mormon .com's Pearl Gray Price. Well, probably more than the Pearl Gray Price I actually come to think of it is the

01:16:22

King Follett funeral discourse. Yeah, that is the most cited material So if the general authorities of the church

01:16:28

Cite that more than anything else. It has a quasi canonical status. There's there's just no way around it but modern

01:16:35

Mormons Yeah, you know and so I saw that I saw that and it just seems to have fallen right off the cliff as far as As what people understand there are still

01:16:47

Mormons who believe all this. Yeah But they're sitting back going

01:16:53

Happened because they they know We're not in the majority anymore by any stretch the imagination.

01:16:59

Yeah, and it's Got to be very troubling for him. Yeah, really it really really does Well, I am very very thankful guys that you had the opportunity of doing this.

01:17:08

What's been the What's been the? aftermath Of all of this what's what's been their response to the debate as far as you can see

01:17:18

Well as far as our two opponents, they they're very happy with it They think that they won very clearly and like I said a lot of the conversation from Catholics and Orthodox I'm like, yeah, you guys should be embarrassed.

01:17:31

You lost the Mormons And then I'm on the other side I'm like you do know that they reject your church

01:17:38

You do know that they're just using your argumentation But they felt like there needed to be a full restoration because you guys don't have it off, right?

01:17:44

So that's interesting, but are the authority that which never came out so From them.

01:17:51

They're happy with it and and there's been I think the video has like over 40 ,000 views in a week

01:17:56

And so it's been a lot of viewership of it. And yeah, it's hard to get people to view things.

01:18:01

They're that long Yeah, sure a lot of CGI in it. Yeah Yeah, it's not a Marvel movie so you can't ask people to sit around for two and a half hours

01:18:09

It doesn't have some type of CGI But uh, well, you know We didn't get to do things like this

01:18:19

For a long long time. I mean Even the first debates we had up in Salt Lake City I I'm not even sure if we have video of a couple of the first ones because All of that type of technology was still fairly new being able to have anything it had any time

01:18:36

I mean, I mean the first digital camera I had was 640 by 480. That was that was the resolution of the pictures

01:18:43

Okay, that's that's And we were poor there was that too. Yeah, that was that was part of it as well

01:18:49

Yeah, um, but we didn't get to do a lot of that kind of stuff And by the time we did start doing some of the larger debates like the one with Martin Tanner and stuff like that the

01:18:58

Mormons were already starting to Back out of being it being really interested in doing that kind of well you don't want necessarily

01:19:05

Bible bash and stuff like that and Especially once you have the the mainstreaming starting around 1999 because in in the 80s

01:19:15

Mormons would never call themselves Christians. They differentiate themselves from Christians. We're Latter -day

01:19:20

Saints We have the priesthood authority. You don't the death of death then that started like I said started to start to change this mainstreaming

01:19:27

Movement began and now you're seeing the end result and I I cannot imagine that this is what they wanted

01:19:35

Well, but it's what they've got. Yeah Well, I just don't think they realized that that given the

01:19:43

The very nature of the blood of Mormonism has so much subjectivism begin with Yeah, once you injected it with this stuff.

01:19:52

There was no there was no stopping it and The the church the church's numbers are extremely weak

01:20:01

The the number of converts per man hour of work of the missionary force has just plummeted.

01:20:10

Yeah, and There's this it's not just because They're not being as bold as they once were

01:20:18

The world has changed. Okay, there's there's a lot of that there too, but Mormonism especially is in a really rough spot

01:20:27

Because the way that the world is is changing they don't really have an apologetic for no and they are deeply deeply susceptible to impact from the world outside and I'm sorry, you can't take

01:20:40

Joseph Smith's amazing claims, I mean Do you know who Zelf the white

01:20:45

Lamanite was Okay, just real quick Look up Zelf in the documentary history of church.

01:20:52

I'll show you the DHC in a few minutes. We can go look at my library But Joseph Smith was out one day with with some riding companions and they came across an

01:21:04

Indian burial ground and they started doing some digging around and they found bones, which is normally what happens and and And Smith started explaining that all

01:21:14

These the bones of Zelf the white Lamanite and they're like really?

01:21:21

And he starts telling them about how because the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon were struck with the dark skin

01:21:29

For their rebellion and their their evil And eventually that was explained in the spiritual pre -existence they weren't as brave and fighting and so on so forth, but The Book of Mormon was already out

01:21:44

So he's already done the Lamanites Nephites thing and he's already done the Lamanites were dark -skinned because of their sin

01:21:50

So but here was a Lamanite who was a righteous Lamanite And so he had a white skin because the

01:21:57

Book of Mormon said you become a white and delight some people Yeah, they had to change that to pure and delights him because that really didn't work out.

01:22:04

Yeah, but anyway Did not know it did not age. Well at all, especially once they started giving the priesthood the black

01:22:11

Which which Brigham Young said was when the church went into apostasy, but anyhow take all that stuff away, but the point is from Joseph Smith's perspective the

01:22:21

Book of Mormon was so real that you could go riding on a horse and run across physical evidence of These civilizations right there under the ground

01:22:32

This happened the Lamanites were real people the Nephites were real people that happened in real time

01:22:39

This is the one true church. It's the most correct book of any on earth that was what

01:22:45

Mormonism was for a long long time and I've talked to so many

01:22:50

Mormons who went on trips down to Mesoamerica down to Mexico and Central America and And They would tell stories

01:23:00

I Don't know if you guys have heard any of these stories but one of the one of the stories you'd hear a lot like BYU would send people down there all the time and there was a story about how once a

01:23:10

BYU group group had gone down there and They had lost their travel documents.

01:23:16

So they're in a foreign country and now their travel documents are gone and they pray and They're coming back to their bus and they see these three

01:23:26

Elderly men running out of their bus and so they go running in and They're on the driver's seat for all their travel documents and they realized who the three men were.

01:23:39

They were the three Nephites the three Nephite Apostles that Jesus said would never die and so that they

01:23:45

Literally believe that there are three 2 ,000 year old dudes.

01:23:51

Yeah running around in Mesoamerica Rescuing BYU students from losing their travel documents.

01:23:56

Yeah. Okay, because they know this is the one true church has been restored And so it really happened in history and they're they're literally saying these things.

01:24:05

What's what's happening now, though is I've pointed out forever when you look at the

01:24:11

Book of Mormon's description of the Nephites and Lamanites all Joseph Smith knew about was the ancient

01:24:16

Romans and so they're on horses and chariots and they've got they've got swords and bows and Arrows and stuff like that. That's they never had these things in those.

01:24:23

Yeah at all and So for a long time they were trying to I mean you guys can go listen to that Martin Tanner thing where I have two

01:24:30

Big BYU professors literally trying to defend the idea that a war club With obsidian rocks embedded in it can be a sword that you pull from a sheath.

01:24:40

Good luck on that one. Yeah, okay They don't have to do it anymore. Yeah Joseph just got it wrong.

01:24:48

Yeah, you know, this is this was how the Spirit led him to understand things We don't have to really believe it was literally true.

01:24:54

Yeah, which is why when you ask like, okay What's the aftermath of debate don't mean I think comments?

01:25:00

I think serious are the people who are able to think critically and say listen to what they're saying Like what they're saying falls apart at the beginning the fact that they're making these claims that Joseph could have just got it wrong at one point.

01:25:11

I asked him I said Did Joseph Smith have false prophecy and they just didn't respond they just they didn't know what to say and then actually he did say

01:25:18

He responded. He said, you know what? We don't believe the Bible teaches that our prophets have to be infallible, right? It's just I know well guys,

01:25:30

I I think I told you that on the way home. I Left a voice text in the elders.

01:25:38

We have an elders group So me Jeff and Luke and Zach and I left a text and I said what real well tonight guys

01:25:48

Because I know Jeff wasn't able to watch it live and stuff like that and Well, Luke and did

01:25:54

Lucas act tell you about our conversations during the debate Zach told me that you sent him a message saying like Shoot me.

01:26:00

Yeah, I said I said why am I doing this with someone? Please shoot me?

01:26:05

It is so hard to have Someone quoting you and you just have to sit there and smile that it because you you you have a perfectly good response

01:26:15

But yeah, I said someone please shoot me. Yes, so I It is hard to when you've done 176 debates

01:26:24

It is really hard to be the moderator and sit there and not not participate Yeah, it's it's tough, but I left a message for the guys and I said

01:26:32

I think we need to be just extremely thankful for the fact that the Lord is raising up the next generation and that This type of things going on and we just need to be deeply deeply thankful for that And so we appreciate the work that you all did

01:26:49

Don't get a big head about anything. Now. You got to do the next thing. Yeah, and I've said many many times apologetics is

01:26:59

Vitally important to the church, but it's also extremely dangerous to those who practice it It is spiritually dangerous.

01:27:06

I cannot tell you how many apostate apologists I know of down through history knowledge puffs up and you have to have knowledge to be able to do that so it pops up and So you have to you have to stay rooted and grounded and You know, you're in the church.

01:27:25

You guys are doing not only Evangelism out there, but you're also doing stuff like, you know, there's other ministry opportunities or working with kids and stuff like that That's what you need to do most apologists get disconnected from the church because they're just running around doing

01:27:39

Seminars here there and everywhere and stuff like that. And that's where they that's where they lose it. That's where they they they fail and anyone who quote -unquote does apologetics should do it within the context of the local church or you're in in Deep trouble, but so I'm glad to see this happen.

01:27:57

I'm glad that there were some Mormons willing to do this. Yeah, I just Honestly, and I gentlemen

01:28:04

I say it's all due respect if I had met you outside the temple in 1990

01:28:09

I Would not have identified you as Mormon Because everybody else around me in their temple garments going to general conference did not believe what you believe

01:28:21

They did not understand it the way you understand it and I know you're young enough that you you wouldn't have been around back then or would been very young but the fact the matter is what you represent is

01:28:32

I Handed this man a tract outside the temple gates and I'm telling you something you do not believe what this man believed and If he was a prophet if he was an apostle one of the general authorities of the church one of the twelve

01:28:48

Apostles Who are you It doesn't even seem to me that you think that you have a priesthood authority.

01:28:57

That is that somehow privileges you This guy thought he did yeah, you know the point is if You all keep going this direction

01:29:09

There will be no Mormonism in 20 years It will have either gone the way of liberal

01:29:15

Protestantism And if you don't know where that's going look at any mainline liberal Protestant domination

01:29:21

You should be able to pick up some free free buildings from them very soon because they're disappearing Or it'll shatter into a thousand pieces

01:29:31

I'm gonna tell you one charismatic leader that comes along claims to be a prophet and He would have a following like you wouldn't believe because there's a lot of Mormons sitting around going what happened what happened and I just I'm just surprised that hasn't happened as yet as yet, but Anyways, all right.

01:29:52

Sorry about the the technical thing there. Well, we'll remember to the hardwire in the future

01:29:59

But we probably wouldn't have gotten through half of them if we had played all that material anyway So the way it goes, so thanks for being our first guests live guests in the studio and we will be looking forward to what happens in the in the future with y 'all and Thank you for doing that.

01:30:18

Thanks for watching the program today guys. I hope it was useful to everyone There were a lot of important issues that we discussed here.