August 16, 2019 Show with Phil Johnson on “Apostasy: Recent Cases Examined”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 16th day

of August, 2019.

And I am always thrilled to have back as a returning guest someone who has actually been interviewed on Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio more than any other guest.

His name is Phil Johnson, and he's the executive director of the media ministry of

the Dr. John MacArthur's media ministry, grace to you.

And today he's going to be addressing apostasy, recent cases

examined, and we're also going to be announcing the 2020 G3 conference coming up,

which actually features Dr. John MacArthur and my guest Phil Johnson on the roster.

Well, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Phil Johnson.

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

It's my pleasure, Phil.

Always my pleasure.

And for our listeners, you never know.

We do sometimes have new listeners who are new Christians, they're not familiar with grace to you.

We even have listeners that are not Christian at all.

We have sometimes Jewish listeners, we have Muslim listeners, we have

sometimes atheists listening, Roman Catholics listening, and so on.

So why don't you tell our listeners about grace to you?

Grace to you, like you said, is the media ministry of John MacArthur.

We are celebrating our 50th anniversary.

Actually we date the beginning of grace to you back to a time when nobody even knew anything about

grace to you, but it was John MacArthur's first Sunday

in February of 1960, 90

years now, which is very rare, as you know, in the contemporary evangelical

movement, more than eight years, much less for 50 years, and he's preached through the entire

New Testament.

And the reason we at grace to you consider that the date of our beginning,

that very first Sunday,

or at least

recorded, now we

don't

do tape anymore,

but ministry.

I am so looking forward to seeing Dr. MacArthur for the very first time in person

at the G3 conference coming up.

I've interviewed Dr. MacArthur in the past on the old Iron Sharpens Iron radio show when we were

broadcasting from WNYG and WGBB in West

Babylon, Long Island, New York, but I have never been in the same building when he has preached.

And I am so excited about this.

This was kind of a later development, it seemed, that he was added to the lineup, or at least that he

accepted the invitation to be added.

So this makes it even more exciting for me, especially.

It is.

It's rare these days for him to travel and curtail that.

He

celebrated

his 80th

birthday.

Yeah, this will be my fourth.

Yeah, it's just a great...

Well, now you've got to persuade him to walk over to my exhibitor's booth there so I can interview him on -site.

Well, I'll do my best.

I'll do my best, but the one thing he avoids most is radio interviews.

And I have noticed that.

It's been quite a long time.

It's been over a decade, I think, since he's been on the show.

But well, I will just have to pray about that, and hopefully that will come to be.

I hope I at least get to shake his hand or something, but I'm looking forward to at least being in the room when he's

preaching.

And for anybody who would like to join Phil and I at the G3 Conference, it's from Thursday,

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Go to G3conference .com, g3conference .com to register.

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I just have a gut feeling about it.

We'll see.

I know the conference has been growing every year, and the first year I went, two or three years ago, it was pretty

huge.

I mean, they use the Georgia Convention Center, and

it always seems full.

But I do think that

Kosti Hinn, Joel

Beeky...

I was thrilled that Josh Bice took me up on my suggestion and invited Kosti Hinn to speak.

When I first brought Kosti to the attention of Josh, he didn't know who Kosti was.

And I assured him that he had become a Reformed Baptist and a cessationist, and

really...

He's a very interesting man.

I love him, and his writing is superb, and his insights are terrific because he's been on

both sides of the Charismatic Divide.

And, of course, he's closely related to Benny Hinn and worked in his ministry.

So he knows the inside, and yet he's devoted to biblical truth and

fearless in what he says.

He's a great addition to the lineup.

Yes.

And the theme this January is Worship Matters.

And I am just really excited to hear what every one of those speakers

there has to say on this subject.

And we'll be listing most of those speakers later on.

We'll be heavily promoting the G3 Conference throughout the show, as we always do every day.

So if you didn't grab a pen before or use your keypad

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Today we are discussing a subject that gives me no joy to

discuss, but it's an important subject.

It's apostasy, recent cases examined.

And if you could, right off the top of the bat, define apostasy.

Apostasy, as I

would use the

word, entails that we're talking about,

and really what I want to talk about, are people who seem to be genuine believers for a time and then turn

completely against Christianity and in some cases become...

Now you said that you typically use the term exclusively for

those who become openly either enemies of the faith or just

abandon the faith.

But isn't it rightly used if someone, let's say, as it has happened on a number of occasions,

more than we care to count, where a theologically reformed or Calvinistic

minister becomes a Roman Catholic?

Isn't that an appropriate term?

Yeah, because one of the things I said was if they abandon their core principles,

someone who's been reformed and understands

the prosola

fide, scriptura

means scripture alone,

and an affirmation of

justification

by faith

alone anymore,

and you don't believe that scripture is the church or the final test for every truth claim.

So, yeah, I would consider someone who...

An apostate is always a heretic, but a heretic is not always an apostate, because you may have been born and raised

in a cult or a false church and have maintained a belief in a false

religion, but that wouldn't make you apostate.

Yeah, not necessarily.

And the other thing that probably we ought to clarify is falling into sin doesn't necessarily make you an

apostate either.

It is sin.

And even continuing sin for a while,

even while he's on...

It would lead you to the point where Jesus himself needs to become unto you.

Yeah, and you would have had to have had a profession of belief in

orthodoxy and biblical truth at one time in order to be categorized as an apostate.

Right, yeah.

And by the way, it's a two -way street.

Unless there are people listening, either those that are ecumenically -minded or they are Roman

Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or something else who might say, These guys are mean.

They're saying that if somebody becomes a Catholic who used to be a historically and

biblically faithful Protestant who becomes a Roman Catholic, they're saying that person is an apostate.

Well, just to let you know, folks, the more learned Roman Catholics, those that

truly know the history and dogmas of Rome, they would categorize me as an apostate because I was

born and raised in the Roman Catholic Church, was an altar boy, went to Catholic school for eight years,

and later in my early to mid -twenties became a

Bible -believing Christian and Calvinist and Reformed Baptist.

Yeah, Chris, not only that, but official Roman Catholic dogma

pronounces its own

Protestant doctrine.

And we should clarify, it doesn't mean we hate each other.

It just means that these are two different varieties of

Christianity, and they can't both be truly Christian.

I know there's a lot of people who want to say that.

Official Catholic dogma anathematizes anyone who's not a Roman Catholic.

It's amazing that you'll have Roman Catholics who, just out of ignorance, now I'm not saying that

they're ignorant people.

They can be very, very intelligent people, but they seem to be ignorant about what their church teaches about dogma.

They seem to believe that the Council of Trent is just an antiquated relic

that belongs on the dust heap of history because it's not really something that is practiced

and believed by Rome today, and you have the most liberal of all popes

in the seat of Peter, at least in their minds he is.

So they would say, what do you keep bringing Trent up for?

That was in the 16th century.

Well, because it's never been overturned.

In fact, Francis has not even overturned it, even as liberal as he is.

Yeah, not only has

it not overturned

the catechism of the Catholic Church, which is,

I guess, about 15 years ago, but it's the

catechism of the Catholic Church.

But it's very schizophrenic, though, because it also said that the Muslims adore the one true

God, as they do, and they hold open hope for

salvation for those who remain in Judaism and Hinduism, and, of course, they

recognize us as separated brethren.

None of those things were in existence during the Council of Trent.

In fact, you may be risking execution if you believed those things back then.

Yep.

And so I had Robert St. Genes on this program before, who is a Roman Catholic, and he

is more of a right -leaning Roman Catholic, and he said that, as a Roman Catholic, he is only

bound to believe in the dogma of Rome, and those things that are included in the Catholic catechism, although

it may be viewed as an official rulebook of the

Catholic Church, there are things in there, he said, that are novel and modern inventions that are not dogma,

that are mixed in with the dogma.

Let's just say there are things in there that are inconvenient for Roman Catholic apologists.

Anyway, what's really motivated us to take up this subject is a

high profile, either in process...

Now, how do you be in the process of not becoming a Christian anymore?

Well, yeah, what he says is he's losing his faith.

And he goes on to talk about...

No, I'm talking about Marty Samson.

He is a songwriter with Hillsong, and I would say he's apostate.

It seemed to me that his original state...

Would not have suspected...

The ones...

Knowledgeable and give every appearance of being...

Suddenly they abandoned the

faith, and I've been a

Christian now, and over those

years...

Yeah, I have some friends that also abandoned the faith over the years, either by

converting to a false gospel or by just giving up altogether on Christianity and

turning their backs on it and saying that it's not true, etc.

Now, as far as today, who we are going to be, at least to some degree, putting more of a

magnifying glass over their stories, do you want to start with Joshua Harris, or do you want to start with the

other gentleman from Hillsong that you just mentioned?

Actually, I think I'd rather just talk about the common characteristics of apostasy, because I think it applies

to both of these guys, and I don't want to necessarily single them out and

make a bunch of comments that people might get upset about.

It's...

To a friend, James White, who said...

To be a wave of high -profile people...

How you signal to the whole...

You've moved past...

I find it interesting that a recent apostate said that he no

longer believes he is a Christian, no longer believes in Christianity, and apologizes

to the LGBT community, LBGTQ community, for not

permitting them their rightful place in the Church.

Now, that seems to be quite oxymoronic.

If you're renouncing a Christian faith, what rightful place does anybody have in the Christian Church?

Yeah.

But you hear the echo of...

He's responding, I think, to popular opinion, and a number of people around him

think his views are archaic, and he's just tired of taking the...

I don't know what motive that I've ever known.

It usually comes to light at some later point.

Right.

There's almost a nobility in their minds, and in the minds of some of the people who hear

their testimonies of abandoning the faith.

It's almost cloaked, and perhaps not even almost, maybe it's clearly and

visibly and definitely cloaked in some kind of nobility, like,

I am going to be honest now.

Yeah, both of these recent cases pretty much introduced,

I've always been a real person, I've always wanted to be

boldly honest here.

Well, let's go through some of the main signs, either that somebody

is heading for apostasy, or has already jumped over that fence.

Yeah, one of the points I would make is that you don't always see the signs.

Of all of the people that I've ever been close to who abandoned the faith,

usually they sort of drop out of sight, and then they come back,

and I had

relationships with before their apostasy, and each case came

to me as a shock, preceded by any plea for help or

questions from them.

Every one of them described that they all went through this long struggle, and nobody could answer my

questions, and nobody in the church had answers to these questions, but knowing

people personally who've done this, none of them ever asked me.

By the way, I want to give our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question

of your own.

It is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N

-Z -E -N at gmail .com, and please give us, as always, your first name at least, your

city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA,

and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I can readily see a topic like

this being connected to personal and private questions.

You might be considering yourself on the way out of the church, or maybe you've

already become an apostate and haven't told anybody yet, or whatever the case may be that makes this a

personal and private matter.

It may be a personal friend.

It may be a family member that is an apostate, and you don't want to draw attention to your identity.

We understand that, so feel free to remain anonymous, but if you're just asking a basic theological question on this issue,

please at least give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and we already have a question that has come in where there is no city and

state or country of residence, so please include that in your

question if indeed you're not remaining anonymous.

You said, just like I have experienced with friends, they tend to typically

disappear for a while, and then they reemerge as confessing that they have abandoned

their once cherished faith.

There have been, though, on other occasions in my experience with others,

telltale signs like, all of a sudden in conversation,

I've been taken aback by people defending Roman Catholicism, for instance,

where they never did before.

Yeah, that happens occasionally, too, or they'll join a forum.

I'm really seeking answers to

their doubts.

In fact, a very

likable

guy in that same class

in Moody who graduated with

me was Bart

Ehrman.

Bart Ehrman is an interesting case in the pattern that you see

sometimes with apostates.

If you read his testimony or listen to how he says he came to his current level of skepticism,

he claims he went to Moody and nobody could answer his questions.

Now, I sat in classrooms with Bart Ehrman.

I don't remember him asking any questions, but he was raised in a...

Seriously, he was a very quiet student, very intelligent, and not a rebellious person, not a troublemaker

in any way.

I had a high opinion of him, but he wasn't a question -asker.

I was, because I was a new Christian.

Bart had been raised, I think, in an evangelical family, and was at

Moody like a lot of... maybe

seemed familiar to them, but a year and

a half before I went to Moody, I had lots of questions about how do we defend the inerrancy of script,

and I don't remember ever raising a question that I didn't ultimately get a satisfying

answer.

I think either he totally has a misconception of how he behaved in class and how he went through school,

or he's just lying.

Yeah, I recall the same reasons that

Scott Hahn and Jerry Manatek and other former Reformed Christians,

Presbyterians, gave when they left and became Roman Catholic.

Nobody could answer our questions.

They were very specific.

They picked out John Gerstner and claimed that they rode in a car with him and asked him questions, and he had no answers for them.

It was mainly on sola scriptura, I believe.

Yeah, and I didn't know John Gerstner that well, but I had a few conversations with him, and I can tell you

their questions.

He was actually a modern -day hero of mine, especially as a young Christian.

I had heard him, John Gerstner, that is, heard him preach at the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology

and heard him at a conference on Jonathan Edwards and so forth, but yeah, I could not imagine him just sitting there in silence saying,

Yeah, you stumped me.

But that seems to be another common thread, not that it's the

case with everybody who leaves the faith, whether it becomes an agnostic, an atheist, or

a member of a false church, is that they blame Christians for not doing a good enough job.

I have heard that over and over again.

There is even an old saying that might have been

Mahatma Gandhi, but I'd become a Christian if I ever met one, that kind of a thing, where you're blaming

the failures of the church and the church leaders and of

pastors and of general run -of -the -mill Christians.

It's really your fault that I'm leaving.

I mean, do you see that a lot?

Oh, sure.

That's almost universal.

As if anyone expects Christians to be perfect in Christ, he is

perfect.

He was sinless.

He was God in human flesh.

We're flawed people.

That's the starting point of the Gospel.

You know, Paul writes in Romans, I'm not ashamed of the Gospel, it's the power of God for salvation.

You think, okay, Gospel, that means good news.

Here comes a bunch of good news, but then he spends two and a half chapters telling us how

sinful we are, and he says it doesn't matter if you're Jewish, Gentile.

He convicts everybody as thoroughly sinful.

There's none righteous, no, not one, he says.

So that's really the starting point of Christian belief, that we don't believe we are sinless.

You see the bumper sticker, you know, Christians aren't perfect, they're just forgiven.

I think that understates it, you know.

We are forgiven for our sins, and struggle for a lifetime to

mortify.

Anyone who truly understands Christianity is not going to have the expectation that everybody in the

church is, that the church is going to...

You don't even see that in the Bible.

Read, first, a church that was shot through with all

kinds of problems, and most of them involved interpersonal conflicts between the Corinthians themselves.

They had difficulty getting along, and that is the common experience of all humanity.

So it's a cheap and easy cop -out, really.

I find, at least half of the time, it seems like

what typically comes to light after the fact is that,

due to some internal

fighting,

either

he's

trying

to...

And Scripture's emphatic about that, 1 John 2, 19.

John is talking about, and he had clearly some experience with

that, starting with Judas.

Remember when Jesus said at the Last Supper, one of you is going to betray me, every

one of the 11 faithful disciples, they doubted Judas.

Right.

Nobody looked at Judas and said, well, but it's him.

Right.

But they all said, is it I?

Is it going to be me?

Right.

And Judas was the one, and nobody suspected him.

In fact, they trusted him so much, they'd made him their treasurer.

And he was the one who apostatized.

And John must have had a lifetime of experience with this, isolated cases here and there

throughout his life, because towards the end of his life, he wrote in his first epistle

that they went out from a...

But I want you to...

But if you hadn't...

I was just going to say, I want you to pick up on that when we return from our first break we have to go to.

Okay.

And before I forget, I have said on occasion to people who either

reject the faith altogether to begin with and never joined a church or made any profession of Christianity,

or people who have apostatized, when they blame

major figures, when they blame their own pastors, when they blame their Christian friends, I always

say, well, no one could ever blame Jesus for Judas.

And that's exactly...

When you pick out a scandalous figure from the church who turned out to be a fraud, for instance,

you're blaming Judas, or should I say you're blaming Jesus for Judas.

You're abandoning Christ because of what someone who turned out to be a counterfeit did.

Or does.

And there's no even logic to that.

But we're going to be picking up where you left off about those who left us were never truly among us.

When we return, this is our first break.

And if anybody else has any questions, please send them in to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a

personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Phil Johnson on apostasy right after these messages.

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We are now back with our guest Phil Johnson, Executive Director of John MacArthur's Media Ministry.

Grace to you.

And we are discussing apostasy.

And you were mentioning before the break that those that leave the faith never were

really a part of the faith.

Phil, are you there?

Yes, sorry.

A little gap there.

Yeah, no.

In fact, that is one of the things, Chris, I think that confuses people most about apostasy because

as I said earlier, it is often, and maybe I should say usually, the people you

least suspect might be struggling behind the scenes or grappling with some sin.

Often they are the ones who apostatize and you don't see it coming and you think, back on it, how could that

guy possibly have been a believer?

And yet, Scripture is very clear.

John says they went out from what had been of us.

In other words, if they had been really in the body, true believers in Christ, they would have

continued with us.

One of the marks, if not the distinguishing mark, of genuine saving faith is its

endurance.

You know, we endure to the end if you're truly saved because what

John says, they went out so that it providentially

orchestrates the exposure of non -believers who in cases have infiltrated the Church

or snuck in unawares or maybe they don't even have sinister motives.

They just have self -deceived hearts.

In order to make it clear, the Lord drives them out of the Church or exposes

them.

A man named Ken Pullian, I can name him because you'll find out when I hear him.

He graduated with a Ph .D. from Bob Jones University, taught theology in a very conservative,

I guess you could say, theological institution.

And I met him in the 1990s.

He flew out to California to meet because he wanted to discuss some of the problems.

He was a knowledgeable man, understood the Scriptures, could quote all sorts of Scripture, taught theology.

And I would say his theological interest,

he didn't ask any troubling questions about any sort of

controversial doctrines or anything like that.

He just wanted to discuss, you know, how can we get patency

that would rip his branch of the fundamentalist

movements with

me.

It was a friendly discussion.

I liked him.

He was a gentleman and nothing about him raised any red flags with

me.

And we corresponded, I guess, for the better part of a year.

And then I had to go to India for the summer.

I was gone for more than a month.

When I came back, I never heard from him again.

His email address had to track him down, so I did

go somewhere and was engaged in some...

More than a decade later, one of these

groups that is angry and militantly anti

-Christian

personality now, he was kind of sarcastic and

mean -spirited and not entirely honest because as he told his story, he

said he had struggled with the doctrine of

the idea that Christ could shed his blood to

blame the justice of it.

And he said no one he knew could accept it for years.

Well, I corresponded with him for about a year.

I still have all that correspondence.

He never once raised that issue.

Really seeking answers.

I don't know what it was that caused him to apostatize, but he came out as a...

just a very vocal apologist for atheism and showed...

Obviously, we disagreed, but it was for the idea that

he had abandoned Christ and I wondered...

The things you always wonder.

How did this affect his family?

How did it affect all the relationships he ever had?

What had this done to his life?

And it was obvious that it put a lot of stress on him.

And about a year and a half after he resurfaced, I heard that he had died suddenly with a heart attack.

Stories I've ever encountered.

I wrote about it at

the

apostasy that are still on my...

search.

As I recall, actually about another

guy who had...

This guy had hung around...

This other guy had

hung

around...

And then resurfaced announcing that he had embraced...

And while I was writing this article,

hold wire... on that blog,

and I can't remember what it was titled.

I'll quickly do a search while we're talking.

I had a similar experience, not that resulted in death yet anyway,

but a friend who was a member of my

brother's, my older brother's rhythm and blues band in the 60s and

70s and probably early 80s.

He, you know, had a very worldly life of drug abuse

and sexual promiscuity and all that.

And then became a professing believer and for a while was

a member of a mildly Pentecostal

congregation and then became a rabid King James Only

fundamentalist and supporter of

the...

I had his name in my head just a second ago.

Who was the very well -known King James Only pastor in

Pensacola, Florida?

Ruckman, Peter Ruckman.

He became a huge advocate of Peter Ruckman, was giving

away dozens and dozens and dozens of his cassette tapes.

And one of the odd things about that is that Peter Ruckman was well -known for

being a racist and he would say things from his pulpit and write things that were clearly racist

and this person happened to be a very dark -skinned Hispanic person which puzzles me.

The next time I saw him after I heard that he had been a Ruckmanite for several years,

I'm in a shopping mall on Long Island sitting there with a pastor friend and I

see him walking by eating something and he recognized me, came over and sat down and he had

denounced that he was an atheist and he was mocking my friend and I, my pastor friend and I,

saying that we base our whole life and our future on a

book and I said to him well what do you base your atheism on?

How on earth did you go from being a fundamentalist to an atheist?

He said oh I've read so many books.

I said what?

You're mocking us for basing our life on a book according to your claim but it's a book

that has been tested by millennia as a true and faithful book

whereas you are basing your eternal destiny on books that won't even be remembered

in 10 years.

That's a common I would say is another common characteristic of the apostates

I have known.

Younger guys experience cataclysmic worldview shifts

about every two or three years.

In fact I think you and I have a mutual friend who sort of fits that category.

He has revamped his whole theology he did it every three or four years for a

couple of decades and finally landed in a kind of ecumenical stance where he

has abandoned Sola Fide and the Gospel and seems to be more at home among Roman

Catholics.

I have a question for you from David in Albuquerque, New Mexico where

I'm going to read the question and then we have to go to the midway break

which is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires this longer break in the

middle because they have to, by FCC regulations localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City,

Florida and they air their own public service announcements and commercials and so on while we air our globally heard

commercials.

So I'll have you answer David's question when we return from that break.

David from Albuquerque, New Mexico asks, Josh Chavez, protege of

Jacob Prosh or I may be mispronouncing that was attending my Bible study

until we confronted him.

How should we look at these teachers?

Apostates?

And I'll have you answer that when we come back.

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com

please as always give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves personal or private matter.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Phil Johnson right after these messages.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and my friend Chris Arnson and I are excited to be attending another G3 conference

together in Atlanta, Georgia Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th on a theme that

is vitally important to all of us, Worship Matters.

I'll be on the speaking line up with Eric Thomas, Joel Beakey Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Phil Johnson

Tom Askel, Votie Balcom and the world -renowned preacher, teacher and author, John MacArthur.

A fascinating new addition to the roster is Kosti Hinn, nephew of the notorious false teacher, Benny

Hinn.

Kosti has repented of the word -faith heresies of his youth and is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and

cessationist in California.

Come join me and Chris Arnson at G3 2020, January 16th through the 18th in Atlanta

by registering at g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com.

See you there!

Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the

air, like the Historical Bible Society.

The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts and Bibles of historical

significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of

scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the Bible's reliability

and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.

Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States,

reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the Bible.

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along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church.

Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org.

The collection includes a complete 11th century Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible from

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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org today.

Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, host of A Visit to the Pastor's Study, and I am so thankful to be part of the advertising

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If you live on Long Island or if you're visiting the metropolitan New York area, I invite you to join us for worship at The

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We meet at the Ascension Lutheran Church facility, 33 Bayshore Road in Deer Park, New York.

At The Haven you'll find God's saturated singing, gospel -rich ministry, and great commission opportunities.

Learn more about us at thehavenli .com and join us this Sunday at 4 .30 p

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

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Today.

As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how He shall be worshipped and how He

shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to

worship God in spirit and truth.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God -centered focus.

Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs,

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Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654.

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, a frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable

to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books

and Bibles at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly, much of what

is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and

otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is CVBBS .com.

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work

in service to you, the Church, and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com.

That's CVBBS .com.

Let Todd.

And Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And you can call CVBBS .com at their toll -free number, 800

-656 -0231 800 -656 -0231 Monday

through Friday from 10 a .m. to 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time, and they still have these two excellent

books available that they're giving away with any purchase.

The first is What is Love? by Dr. James M. Renahan, president of IRBS Theological

Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

This is a wonderful little hardback published by Evangelical Press, and it's yours for free with a purchase of

any amount, no matter how small.

Just put that you want What is Love? in the comments section at CVBBS .com.

The other book requires a larger purchase because it is a larger book, a much larger book, and it happens to be

my very favorite biography of all time.

A pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cone.

Spencer Cone, a 19th century Particular Baptist pastor in Manhattan, who is

tragically virtually unknown today, other than by those who have read this

biography by John Thornberry, a friend of mine.

This is another book by Evangelical Press.

Beautiful hardback, much larger than the first one, and I think it should be made into a major motion picture

because Spencer Cone's life is so utterly fascinating.

If you want that book, you have to purchase a minimum of $50 worth of merchandise at CVBBS

.com.

You put A Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cone in your cart on the website,

add $50 worth of merchandise on top of that, then enter the coupon code IRONSHARPENSIRON, which is all

capital, all one word, IRONSHARPENSIRON, and then the price of A Pastor in New York will be

automatically subtracted from your total.

That's how you do that, and I think it's much easier if you call them on Monday when they reopen

at 10 a .m.

They're open 10 a .m. to 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time this coming Monday.

Call 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231, and just ask them on the

phone for either or both What Is Love? and also A

Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cone, depending upon how much you want to spend, and you have to

mention Chris Arns and Avariant Sharpensiron Radio if you're on the phone with them, obviously.

Before we return to Phil Johnson, just to have a few upcoming special events that we've got to announce.

First of all, in September, my friend Bruce Bennett is going to

be debating a Roman Catholic apologist.

It's September 7th, 6 .30 p .m., and the theme is Is the Office of Pope

Biblical?

The Roman Catholic apologist is Matthew Luke Broderick, and this is going to be held at the Word of

Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

That's the church that Pastor Bruce Bennett is the pastor of, and he is defending the

Protestant position that there is no office of Pope in the Bible.

If you want more details on this, go to wotchurch .com.

That stands for Word of Truth, by the way.

Wotchurch .com wotchurch .com or call 631 -806 -0614

631 -806 -0614 631 -806 -0614

631 -806 -0614 631 -806 -0614

631 -806 -0614 631 -806 -0614

631 -806 -0614 leadership.

They can only handle less than 200 people in this venue so they have restricted the attendance to

men and ministry leadership.

And if you fit that category we hope to see you there.

Dr. Stephen J Lawson is on the lineup, Paul Washer, Reverend Jeff Thomas, Reverend Armand

Tomassian who I am certain is going to be a household name over the next decade amongst Reformed Christians.

He's a young pastor but he has a power and gifts and wisdom and

biblical knowledge that surpasses his youth.

I just always love hearing him preach.

I feel like I'm listening to a Puritan from centuries ago preaching.

Richard Colwell Jr. and Andrew Quigley are on the lineup as well.

I've never heard those two brothers but since Sermon Audio selected them I am sure they must be excellent.

So if you want to join me Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th in New York City at the Foundations Conference go to

thefoundationsconference .com, thefoundationsconference .com.

Then the conference that Phil and I were already discussing during this interview.

The G3 Conference is being held Thursday January 16th through Saturday January 18th in

College Park Georgia which is a suburb of Atlanta at the Georgia International Convention Center.

I am going to be manning an exhibitors booth there so if you do register I hope you look for me at my Iron

Trip and Zion Radio exhibitors booth.

They always have a phenomenal lineup of guest speakers and this January is

no exception when they speak on the theme Worship Matters.

Speakers include the aforementioned Kosti Hinn, the nephew of notorious heretic Benny Hinn

and Kosti has repented of the word of faith heresy and is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and a cessationist.

Daryl Bernard Harrison who is a colleague of my guest Phil Johnson at

Grace to You.

He is also a brilliant writer.

I've never heard him speak I'm looking forward to hearing him speak for the first time at G3.

David Miller who is an old -school preacher and teacher I just love hearing him preach.

Derek Thomas who is definitely no stranger to the vast majority of Reformed Christians.

What a wonderful writer and preacher and teacher he is.

Once again we have Stephen Jay Lawson and Paul Washer on the lineup at this

conference.

Our mutual friend of Phil Johnson's mutual friend of mine Dr. James

R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries who I've called my dear friend since 1995.

Another friend that I've had since the 1990s is Dr. Joel Beeky president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary

in Grand Rapids Michigan.

Todd Freel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio.

Tom Askell the executive director of Founders Ministries the Calvinistic ministry within the Southern

Baptist Convention.

Vody Baucom who is one of the most profound preachers alive on the planet Earth.

My guest Phil Johnson and as you've heard the latest addition to the lineup is one of

my greatest heroes alive today Dr. John MacArthur.

He is going to be speaking at this conference.

If you'd like to attend go to G3conference .com G3conference .com and as I said earlier please if you have

a business or if you have a parachurch organization or an event

or something that you want to promote to the body of Christ well they usually have over 5

,000 people at the G3 conference I think with John MacArthur on the lineup they're gonna have over 6 ,000 people.

I am just very confident of that if you want to join me there go to G3conference .com G3conference

.com and register to attend and also if it applies to you register for an exhibitors booth while they still

have room they will more than very likely run out of room a lot earlier

this this time around because of John MacArthur's addition on the lineup.

Last but not least if you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves please

I beg of you go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com click support then click click to donate now

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Send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

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Send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

If you are a not a member of a local Bible believing church and you're not even looking for one you are living in rebellion against

God please rectify that situation.

I can help you.

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world.

So send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com and put I need a church or something like that in the subject line.

I have helped many people in the IronSharpensIronRadio audience find churches where they live not only in the

United States but in Australia and other places in England Wales.

And if you're going on vacation somewhere I can help you find a church where you're going on

vacation.

If you have family friends and loved ones that live in an area and they haven't found a church yet I can help you there too.

Send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Phil Johnson about apostasy.

That's.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com and Phil as you may remember before the break I asked you

David in Albuquerque New Mexico's question he says Josh Chavez protege of

Jacob Prosh was attending my Bible study until we confronted him.

How should we look at these teachers apostates.

Question mark.

Yeah.

Well that's a tough question.

Let me.

Start with Jacob Prosh.

He's been around a while.

He's I think his background is Jewish.

He he came out of the Calvary Chapel movement which is a good

preachers but a church leadership

thing and there and

doesn't really.

Prosh is one of the

managed to garner a site.

He's a passionate man.

I'd say he's a blowhard actually

and easily angry.

Yelling and angry visibly angry.

And somewhere along the line he discovered that if he pointed out other people's errors

it it may be minimized.

The criticism that was aimed his will garnered him a large audience of

people who share that kind of passion.

So he has a large audience of people who are prone to be passionate but not necessarily passionate in a good

way.

And you know I won't go into much more detail about him other than to say

critiques of his teaching and and all that online.

He's not.

He's not.

He's clearly not open to correction.

He did a video a few years ago in the wake of a conference we sponsored the strange fire conference in

which he he just went off on John MacArthur and R .C. Sproul

and he had clearly confused.

This is just one example of the fallacies in his tape.

He had clearly confused R .C. Sproul with Gary North

and so I tried to correct that but he was insistent.

I mean he he refused to correct it.

As far as I know he never did correct it.

He took his original video down.

That's the sort of thing I don't know that I've ever acknowledged that he got something

like to breed followers of a similar kind.

And Josh Chavez Joshua Chavez.

He goes by the name service E -R -V -U -S not S -E

-R -V -I -S service Christy means a servant of Christ which he definitely is not.

But he makes these angry YouTube videos where he criticizes anyone and everyone.

And he tends to gravitate to the most conservative respectable figures in the evangelical movement.

And those are the ones he aims.

His harshest criticisms and the most volume of his criticism.

A younger guy.

He's certainly younger than me.

He's got a neck tattoo that is the the logo for Calvary Chapel.

That's how you'll recognize him.

Look for the Calvary big Calvary Chapel logo neck tattoo on the side of his face.

My advice to most people who wonder is this guy right.

Is he on some of the things he says are true.

Some of the things he criticizes deserve to be criticized.

But I think if you watch him long enough he's his own self -refutation because his basic line of argument

is that there is there is a never -ending chain of connections that

can connect really anyone no matter how respectable.

I mean you're aware of the theory that says everybody in the world is

connected to everybody else in the world.

By by no more than 60 you know you could

choose any random person in the world.

And if you look far enough into Ben with it all

connected to one another.

And he uses those kinds of connections to sully the names of

risk at one of

his targets.

He would say okay.

But R .C. Sproul spoke at this conference where

where

ultimately

alongside Joyce Meyer.

And therefore R .C. Sproul is connected by this line of relationships to Joyce Meyer.

And he's a heretic.

Why anyone would be persuaded by that kind of argumentation.

I don't know but he does seem to have a lot of followers.

I get emails on a fairly regular basis maybe once or twice a week

from people who have encountered his stuff and want to know have we answered it.

And my answer usually is watch enough of it.

And he's his own refutation.

I'm not gonna waste time on somebody like that trying to answer every video he brings out because he brings him up

as an apostate he's certainly a troublemaker.

He's he's more I put him more in the category of Alexander the coppersmith then

then Judas Iscariot.

One thing I think you have to be clear.

About is what side of his neck is this Calvary Chapel tattoo on mine is on the right side so I don't want

people to get.

I don't even know what the Calvary Chapel logo is basically.

Oh yeah that's right that's right.

I do want to say that I do have friends who are Calvary Chapel pastors and members of Calvary

chapels who are very gifted and biblically literate pastors even though there

seems to be a trend that there are varying degrees of anti

-Calvinism amongst them.

I happen to be as my listeners who listen faithfully know I am a Reformed Baptist and a Calvinist and

they seem to range from uncomfortable tolerance of Calvinism to vehement

vociferous anti -Calvinism in.

The Calvary Chapel right.

And it wasn't always that way.

I have a lot of friends who are Calvary Chapel too.

I don't mean to impugn the entire movement but I do think the movement has a tendency that that's

not going to keep it very well anchored.

And you can see the drift over the past two decades or so where I didn't hear anything

against Calvinism from the Calvary Chapel part of the

new millennium and then it became.

It's not just Calvinism they

within that movement over the think they could use a

little more

and isn't.

And that's what

he's done.

He's used you to Trinity to sort of.

Yeah.

And also because of

his there really isn't anyone he can

prize me that he had to be asked to leave a Bible study group if he was there at all

because he's not going to tolerate anybody else's teaching.

You just listen to him.

And unless it would be Jacob Prash himself who is his mentor and the only person I've ever heard him abstain

from bad case really it's kind of sad to

watch him.

But if anybody is confused by it I I say watch enough of it.

And I think you'll thank you David.

Keep.

Spreading the word about iron sharpens iron radio in Albuquerque New Mexico and beyond we have an anonymous listener

who says can a truly regenerate born -again Christian

for a period abandon the faith either by becoming a member of a

false church or by becoming an atheist or agnostic but who would return

later after a reasonably brief period of time.

Yeah that's a great question I would say.

If the if the root problem is confusion or a lack of teaching perhaps I mean I've known

Christians who for a while got sort of drawn towards

they're not going to.

They're not going to get drawn to

fall into sin or confusion for a time.

But you know I think first John 2 9 is saying John

is safety if they depart abandon us permanently if they walk away from

the faith in cause.

If they were they would have stayed one thing.

But I also have to say about apostasy.

It is I think the most frightening of all sins because I've never known anyone

who actually had a full knowledge of the gospel and with full understanding and eyes wide open

abandoned the faith and then later repented and came back.

And I sometimes wonder if that's what the writer of Hebrews is talking about in those warning passages when he

says it's impossible for those who are once enlightened to renew them to repentance.

I think that's the idea that this is.

It's also I think related to what Jesus was saying in

Matthew 12 him of

casting out

dissuade people from following Christ because he wasn't the kind of Messiah they wanted.

But they knew from the miracles of themselves that he was the Messiah so they were rejecting him with full

knowledge of who he was which was a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit who had opened their eyes to who he really

was.

And so Jesus refers to it as the blasphemy against the Holy.

And I sometimes wonder if that in if his words about unpardonable

sin encompass known

people who heresy or dabble

at

someone

who I no

longer believe this I've never.

Seen it turned around now.

A part of that question I think involved a truly regenerate person becoming

an agnostic or atheist.

Do you really think that that is possible even for a brief period of time because that's like an extreme.

I could see somebody and I've met people who become furious with God who become.

Angry with God right.

But it depends on what they mean.

By that does it mean.

They have questions and doubts because I think we're all assaulted with various doubts about any doctrine including

the existence of God.

That's that's not a doubt.

I ever struggle but I'd be surprised to read Charles Spurgeon's testimony in which

he says he was as a young believer assaulted with precisely those

people he never gave up the

fault

of his mind.

For a time make me reluctant to say no.

If you're a Christian you're never gonna have a doubt.

You're never gonna you're never gonna think.

Some do and particularly young Christians who.

Aren't well taught.

We have a question from Mary and Cork Ireland and Mary asks

if a person is a thorough going Calvinist Reformed Christian who

believes in the essentials of the faith and has embraced them and has loved them for years.

Should this person ever fear that they may become an apostate.

Well I.

Don't think you should be debilitated by that kind of fear but I don't think you should assume

that doubt could ever

topple you from where you're at.

It's exactly what Paul is saying in 1st Corinthians 10 I am who thinks he stands

take heed lest he fall.

And he cites the example of the Israelites in the wilderness who had been delivered from Egypt and

he says that you know that's the he's trying to point out.

These were the people of God they identified with God they they knew enough truth to be saved but

clearly they didn't believe it.

And that's in that context Paul as a Paul.

Or is that Hebrews 4.

I think that was Paul wrote.

Yeah whatever I don't know.

My mind is fuzzy right now.

I just got back from till I'm jet -lagged anyway.

Anyway scripture tells us not to be not to be overconfident and we're supposed to examine

ourselves every time we partake of the Lord's.

And it's not

that you should be time

but I think it's a healthy thing for anyone no matter what state.

The faith.

Ask the question is my faith real.

Yeah one of the things that.

Makes this complicated is that we who

believe in justification by faith alone

by salvation by grace through faith alone.

We see people that have been delivered from darkness we see people who

have repented of the most heinous of sins and then they become not only

lovers of Christ it seems and followers of Christ faithfully obedient

in their lives and enviable perhaps even in the way they live.

They have such wonderful enviable Christian lives and then they

may even excel into areas of brilliance.

They might even be considered by some biblical geniuses and then all sudden boom they fall

away.

That is where you you have to.

Not that you would give slack doctrinally to our

five -point brothers and sisters who believe you can lose your salvation but but you can at

least more understand why they may have given weight to

that belief right.

And and let's face it we are all subject to self -deception our hearts are deceitful of all things

desperately wicked and and sometimes our own hearts lie to us so you can't trust your

feelings or listen to your own head.

You have to examine yourself according to scripture and and and all.

You know what you just described.

Actually I don't know who you're thinking of but who pops into my mind is is Clark Pinnock who in his

younger years wrote some brilliant defense of the authority inspiration of scripture and

then I would consider him an apostate.

I think he abandoned enough of Christianity that I really would fear for his soul.

As a young man as an

example of why scripture says look don't lay hands on anyone too suddenly and and and don't

don't raise up young people as you

know tenets

of neo -orthodox.

Again a young genius.

But he.

Didn't.

He didn't.

John in Bangor Maine says although we cannot claim any infallible knowledge

of our own salvation or the salvation of others do we not need to treat

people and ourselves like Christians until they prove otherwise.

Do we go around doubting everyone around us just because there may be false believers

among us or to do we give full credit to the profession made to others and even be

convinced and assured of our own salvation while we were living faithfully.

Yeah that's a great question.

Too because let's face it there are people I think who are prone to actually doubt and question and attack anyone.

The guy we talked about earlier is one of those either.

I don't think there's anybody he wouldn't somehow find a reason to disqualify.

You wonder if he really thinks he and his mentor are the only two Christians left.

So there are people who I think have that tendency and we really ought to be careful about it.

So yes I agree with what the questioner is saying.

As long as you understand

faith.

And and I don't think we should automatically assume everybody who

says when somebody can give a testimony about faith in Christ that reflects that they

do understand of the gospel enough to know that they're not

presented to Jesus in their own mind who's who they really love but it's not the

Jesus of.

But they can give a credible testimony that shows some knowledge of what scripture teaches

about Jesus.

Then yes I think we should take their.

We have Christopher in Suffolk.

County Long Island New York.

Who says.

I feel uncomfortable asking this but since this is a world -renowned figure I think it is

appropriate.

Do you believe that Hank Hanegraaff has become an apostate bait by by becoming Eastern Orthodox.

Yeah that's a tough question.

I'd really have to grill Hank on.

Would he define the gospel.

Now what has changed in

what is the

issue trying to make a judgment on.

I would say that his

embrace really gives

me to

that degree

without even making a convention.

I'm not not

willing at this point.

It's a legitimate concern and

I think if I yeah

from where I stand yeah one can say if

they are on our side.

Of the Tiber River that if somebody

becomes a convert to a religion that

adheres to a false gospel if they are actually believing in the

false gospel of that religion they certainly have become an apostate.

But you have right you have people who are either deceived or ignorant or naive

about what the religion they've become a part of actually teaches.

Yeah also I think in.

Some cases people but maintain a willfully naive understanding of the doctrine

they're there for sentimental reasons or made a shift in order to

have more comfortable for whatever.

Those are all bad reasons for a lot of these questions won't be

sorted out until God amen.

We have a very faithful and.

Generous supporter of Iron Trip and Zion radio Grady has a question.

Grady from Asheboro North Carolina.

Greetings brothers Chris and Phil.

I agree with our brother dr. James are white that we're going to see this more often.

I believe that these false believers are seeing that the true believers are going to be facing

great persecution in America soon and that's one reason they're leaving.

Do you agree with this assessment.

Yeah.

Perhaps I mean I again I.

Don't know anybody's me about it

and what is probably my biggest concern.

Who identify currently as evangelicals who are there because they've

followed some trend or done what they think is popular and as soon as they find out it's not popular

they're going to abandon it.

Back in I think 2010 or 29 Time magazine published an article about the 10

ideas that are currently shaping the world and one of the ideas they highlighted was

Calvin's rejoicing.

When they saw that I cringed because I said okay now this is gonna make Calvinism the popular

fad wagon to jump on and everybody's gonna self -identify as a

Calvinist.

And when they get tired of that jump off the bandwagon and

become

they're only there.

Because and so I'm

wary of trends and I think what we're seeing may be the harbinger

from people abandoning faith like I think I said at the beginning.

James White also

said this that

we have to get our

final break.

Right now and if you want to join us on the air with a question of your own do so immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of Phil Johnson and our

subject apostasy recent cases examined so don't go away.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

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Welcome back and I have a very brief prayer request for our iron sharpens iron radio

listeners that relates to the ad you just heard Joe Jackowitz who is the president

of first love radio.

In fact he sat down for quite a while having a time of fellowship with Phil Johnson and I at the

last g3 conference.

Joe Jackowitz is not only preaching every day after iron sharpens iron radio and is also

involved in the ministry relations department for family radio.

He was just diagnosed with leukemia and he has given me permission in fact urged

me to publicly announce this and request prayer for him.

The prognosis is reasonably good.

The doctor told him that because of his age which is he is in this in his 60s

and for other positive things about his health he has a 70 chance of survival but

at the same time that's still a scary number.

So please not only pray for healing for Joe Jackowitz but pray that the Lord gives him

peace of mind and confidence and encouragement and comfort and that he just trust fully in the will of God

during this trial in his life.

And we want Joe to stick around a lot longer.

He's a dear brother in Christ and friend.

So please keep him in your prayers and I will keep you updated as to the progress in his health and last but not least

Richard Bennett former Roman Catholic priest who became a reformed Baptist and founded

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His wife believes that he is so critically ill he may be on the very brink of eternity.

So please keep Richard Bennett in your prayers but Phil.

I want you to summarize what you most want our listeners to remember about apostasy today.

All right.

And it may be something I haven't said yet and that's this don't let the apostasy of other people

to shatter your faith.

Knowledges like Judas that there

are people in the church who identify with Christ who claim to believe in him who give every sign of being faithful

followers who nevertheless aren't.

They're either faking it or they are.

If they depart the faith it's because they never really truly believed.

And so that's why we to make our calling an election sure.

Make certain that your faith is genuine faith and welcome the testings that come to your faith.

The put you to the

test as you grow in Christ whatever doubts

you

struggle

form you

to his likeness.

Amen.

Well I want our folks to remember that the website for grace to you is gty .org

gty .org.

Don't forget about the g3 conference will Phil Johnson and John MacArthur and many others will be speaking in January

January 16th through the 18th 2020.

It's g3conference .com g3conference .com.

Phil if you wouldn't mind holding on for a minute I want to give you a proper goodbye off the air and I want to thank

everybody who listened today especially those who took the time to write.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are.

A sinner.

I hope you all have a blessed and safe and happy weekend and Lord's Day.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions next week for our guests on iron sharpens iron radio.