The Priesthood Debate

Next question, in the spirit in which it is offered. OK. If presbyters became overtime priests, and we are told the presbyters are to be husbands of one wife in Titus 1, 5 through 6, well, where's

Mrs. Pacwa? My wife's right over there. My mom died.

That's the last Mrs. Pacwa we had. The point being, of course, not to introduce the discussion of what you would call a discipline of celibacy.

But if this development of presbyter into priest is to be valid, wouldn't all of the qualifications and functions that are found in Titus chapter 1 and 1

Timothy chapter 3 likewise then have to be transferred into the priesthood? And there are a number of things that the elders are to do that don't necessarily fit within what

I would understand the priestly requirements to do. Certainly in the Roman rite of the

Catholic Church, we don't have married clergy very often. In the

Eastern rites, they do. So that's fairly normal. In terms of the marriage as a requirement, this is something that is not said as necessary.

It's something that behooves you to be the husband of one wife. And in the early church, that was understood as meaning if your wife dies and you're a presbyter, you may not remarry.

And also, as time did develop, if you were married when you became a presbyter, then you and your wife had to cease marital relations.

And that was especially true, more strongly true, if you were a bishop. If you became a bishop, then you had to cease marital relations.

And that was an expectation of the laity as well. Well, doesn't it follow, though, in that situation that we have a clear example where in the

New Testament, the qualifications of the presbyter are being, in essence, contradicted and countermanded?

I mean, what you just said, which I wasn't going to address, what you just said in regards to ceasing marital relations, that almost makes it sound like there's something wrong with that when it's something that God ordained.

And it seems to me, at the presbyter, if this is the

New Testament basis, either that or you're saying, no, we've gone way past what the New Testament gives. If you're saying that, then

I think that makes my point. Here's the sense that I have. And in terms of, one sense

I need to address the Mrs. Pacwa kind of concept. Because there is another,

I don't consider myself to be a bachelor in any way at all. That's not my approach.

But the sense that I have is that because I sacramentally represent

Christ as an alter Christus, and I accept that as part of my role, I see myself wedded to the same bride as Christ, namely the

Church. And that my sense of loving the Church as my spouse is very much part of my life.

And I want to love the Church with that kind of devotion of a husband to a spouse.

In case people didn't hear. When you applaud, you are wasting the time of the speakers.

She's wasting her time. That's OK. She doesn't mind. When, why? I just want to make sure that people understood what was said before.

The term alter Christus means what? Another Christ. Another Christ. I just want to make sure everyone understands that.

Now the book of Hebrews speaks more of priests and priesthood than any other New Testament book outside the historical references in the

Gospels. Yet the only Christian priest in Hebrews is Christ. Would it not have been a glaring error of argumentation on the part of the author, and hence easily refuted, if in fact the counsel of Trent was right and the

Christian church at that particular point in time had priests in her midst who repetitiously offered a sacrifice that does not perfect anyone for whom it is made?

First of all, one of the things about the use of priest in the letter to the

Hebrews is that it comes from the use in Genesis 14 and Psalm 110 verse 4, which are the only two places that I could find.

There might be others that I don't know of, but the only two places I could find where a non -Israelite is called a

Kohen, namely Melchizedek. So that ata kohen aldi brat melchizedek in Psalm 110, and also in Genesis 14, he is called a

Kohen, El Elyon. And so this use of priest for someone outside of Israel is the one person, and then

Christ's priesthood seen in that light of the Melchizedek as a superior priesthood to the

Levitical priesthood is precisely the point. Now, in terms of understanding what we're doing,

I would definitely admit that what the Catholic church believes it's doing is saying something based on what we believe that the

New Testament means, and then we're drawing some more lines between the dots.

Just as all Christians who are Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic, or the

Eastern churches have to draw different lines in between the dots about the

Blessed Trinity, and that's part of the point of the book that you did. You see very clearly that what is meant in the

New Testament is the Blessed Trinity, and that this is something, yeah, the word, the

Jehovah's Witnesses are right, the word is not there, but that doesn't mean it's unbiblical by any means. The only way to understand the biblical doctrine is with the

Trinity concept. Similarly, we believe that the priesthood of Christ and then us taking those actions of celebrating the

Eucharist and of hearing confessions and the other sacraments as well are taking

Christ's priestly activities in this very sacramental way and representing them today, and that's where definitely we are drawing dots between our actions and Christ's priestly action.

Are you drawing a parallel between the clarity and perspicuity of the biblical evidence concerning the doctrine of the

Trinity and the concept of the priesthood as you've enunciated this evening?

As a matter of fact, given the way that all the churches until the 16th century have seen that clarity, yes, because there's nobody who denies that whether it be the

Armenians, the Siromalabar down in southern India, the Jacobites over in China or the

European and Mediterranean communities, we all see the same connection.

So the biblical evidence is as clear and strong to you that even though the term doesn't appear and isn't used and even though the first generations of Christians don't use this language, it's as clear to you that the

New Testament presents a mediatory sacramental priesthood as that the New Testament teaches the

Trinity. Yes, absolutely. And it would be something that just like the

Trinity, I would also consider my life not as worthwhile as changing my faith so that just as I would lay down my life for the