March 16, 2021 Show with Paul A. F. Castellano on “As It Is In Heaven: A Biblical, Historical & Theological Introduction to the Traditional Church & Her Worship”

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March 17, 2021

March 16, 2021 PAUL A. F. CASTELLANO, author & minister in the United Episcopal Church of North America, who will address: “AS IT IS IN HEAVEN: A Biblical, Historical & Theological Introduction to the TRADITIONAL CHURCH & HER WORSHIP”

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, in downtown
00:10: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
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00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,
01:00: Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:15: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:20: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday, on the 16th day of March, 2021, and I'm very excited to have as a first -time guest today,
01:34: Paul A .F. Castellano. That's Paul Anthony Francis Castellano. He is an author, and he is a minister in the
01:42: United Episcopal Church of North America, and we are going to be addressing his new book,
01:49: As It Is in Heaven, a biblical, historical, and theological introduction to the traditional church and her worship, and this is a subject today that I may have some differences with my guest over.
02:04: That's one of the reasons I call the program Iron Sharpens Iron, and some people have been asking me, how come you have so many
02:11: Anglicans on your program? You're not Anglican. I am a Reformed Baptist, a former Roman Catholic, and one of the reasons
02:18: I have become fascinated and intrigued by Bible -believing
02:24: Episcopalians and Anglicans is that half of my family, my father's side of the family, many remain
02:32: Episcopalian, and some of them have jumped ship because of the liberalism to become
02:38: Roman Catholic, and I have been trying to, over the years, steer my
02:45: Episcopalian side of the family to good, solid, biblically faithful Anglican and Episcopalian churches.
02:51: So that is one of the reasons for my fascination and interest in this subject of things
02:58: Anglican, and that includes our subject today, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Paul Castellano.
03:08: Thanks, Chris, I appreciate you having me. Oh, the pleasure is mine, brother, and tell us about, first of all, the
03:16: United Episcopal Church of North America. I'm sure that is a denomination that is totally foreign to many if not most of our listeners.
03:26: You're probably 100 % right on that. The first thing I would like your listeners to know is that the term
03:36: Episcopal in the title is an historical term. It doesn't give any indication as to where we stand theologically, so please don't get the hair in the back of your neck standing up because you hear
03:50: Episcopal when the mainline Episcopal Church essentially exploded and the continuing
03:57: Anglican movement, essentially the theologically conservative Anglicans left the
04:04: Episcopal Church. We wound up, and I'm sure Bishop Peter has mentioned some of this to you, but we wound up developing a number of different denominations out of the
04:18: Episcopal Church, and out of one of those derived the
04:24: United Episcopal Church. The term Episcopal became more of a psychological connection for those that wanted to leave the mainline
04:34: Episcopal Church, not an identification with the liberal move away from biblical
04:39: Christianity. We stand firmly within the English Protestant Reformation. We have a wide variety of ministers representing the broad spectrum of Anglicanism.
04:55: I represent the Reformed, and by Reformed I not only mean Reformed broadly, but a
05:00: Calvinistic historical connection in Anglicanism, and we have a number of brothers within the
05:08: UEC that are also of that ilk. As a matter of fact, my best friend graduated with me from Westminster, then went to Calvin Seminary to get his
05:16: MDiv. So we have a very solid Reformed, broadly
05:22: Evangelical Protestant English Reformation core. And if anybody wants to investigate the
05:30: United Episcopal Church of North America, find out more about it, find out if there is a parish near where you live, unitedepiscopal .org
05:39: is the website, unitedepiscopal .org. I also want to give some of my guest's background and training.
05:48: He has a BA in Philosophy from California State University in Long Beach, an MA in Religion, an emphasis in Theology and Apologetics from Westminster Theological Seminary in California, an
05:59: MA in Philosophy, emphasis in German Idealism and Transcendental Arguments from California State University Los Angeles, a
06:07: THM in Ecclesiastical Theology at St. Andrews Theological College and Seminary, a
06:14: PhD in Dogmatic Theology, emphasis in Ecclesiology, ABD, University of Aberdeen.
06:21: He has postgraduate studies from California State University in Long Beach and the
06:27: University of Strasbourg, France, doctoral studies at Whitfield Theological Seminary in Intellectual History, South African Theological Seminary Apologetics Critique of Cornelius Van Til, Northwest University and in South Africa, Comparative Analysis of the
06:45: Thought of Herman Dewey Ward, and I probably mispronounced that, and Cornelius Van Til, and he has written an article in Modern Reformation Journal in 1993,
06:57: One People or Two, and as I said, we are discussing his book, his newest book,
07:03: As It Is in Heaven, a Biblical, Historical, and Theological Introduction to the Traditional Church and Her Worship.
07:10: And right off the bat, would you say that this would be a defense of high church worship, and perhaps you could even define that?
07:21: I know that you describe yourself as a high church Calvinist, so why don't you define what a high churchman is and compare it to low church?
07:32: Sure, absolutely. First, the Dutch pronounce it, Doe -veerd.
07:40: This way, if it ever comes up again, you'll know. Where it would ever come up,
07:47: I have no idea, but if it does come up, I'll know it does. The term high church, and once again,
07:57: I'm probably walking over some territory that Bishop Robinson covered, but the term high church was originally identified in the
08:07: Church of England more with those that identified with a particular element of the monarchy.
08:16: Those that were considered supporters of the monarchy were generally considered high church.
08:23: Those that were more on the evangelical side were considered low church.
08:29: Now, through time and the morphing of concepts, the two terms today, for all intents and purposes, are virtually meaningless.
08:43: We use the term high church, I use the term high church specifically in the book, but I use it to identify more of a liturgical practice and the theological interpretation of that liturgical practice rather than the identification with any particular political representation.
09:08: So, for me, to be high church would mean that, number one,
09:14: I feel that I firmly root my practice, my ecclesiastical practice, in theology.
09:24: So, whatever ritual and or ceremony that I practice on any given
09:32: Sunday, I know that I'm not going to be a high church. I want to make sure, or at least I try to make sure, that everything that I'm doing has biblical support and a biblically, theologically solid definition.
09:44: I don't do things merely for the sake of traditional, for traditional reasons.
09:50: Now, tradition doesn't have anything to do with tradition, don't get me wrong. I'm simply saying that I want to make sure that what
09:57: I do can be supported from Scripture, so that if I have to explain what I do as I am right now,
10:04: I can make a connection and show people, especially my evangelical friends who may not come from a high church background,
10:13: I can say, look, what I'm doing has biblical support. Here's the place from where I get that.
10:19: The primary difference between my understanding of high church versus what is generally known as low church today has to do with how we present ourselves on a
10:29: Sunday morning. My low church brothers, and we have a substantial number of low church brothers in the
10:36: UEC, would come to church on a Sunday morning and they would wear, I may have to define the terms, but I'll just throw them out anyway, they would simply wear a cassock, a surplus, and a black tippet or a black stole.
10:51: So it would be very simple, but those would be the primary physical identifications as to clerical attire.
11:04: Whereas when I would come and worship, I would have to use a rather cheeky phrase,
11:10: I'd have the full regalia. I would have a white orb,
11:16: I would have a colored stole to match the liturgical calendar, and I would wear a chasuble.
11:22: And the key thing to keep in mind when I say that is I do not identify the chasuble, the function of a chasuble, the way
11:29: Rome or Eastern Orthodoxy does. I do not believe that simply by wearing a chasuble that means that you are participating in priestcraft, any form of sacerdotalism, or a sacrifice of Christ on the table or on the altar.
11:44: That is not what a chasuble indicates for me. I'll leave that up to you, and then you can ask any further questions if we need to unpack that.
11:54: Well, I think because of time restraints, we can have definitions of the garments perhaps later on if we conduct a follow -up interview, which
12:05: I have a suspicion we will do, because two hours goes by a lot faster than a lot of people think, especially since there are commercials in the show.
12:15: But I do have a question that is so hinged on what you just said,
12:22: I had a listener question I should say. I don't typically take listener questions this quickly, but I figured
12:29: I might as well since it is directly involved in something that you were saying in describing your belief in high church worship.
12:41: This is from, and I usually don't give a full name of a listener, but when it comes to ministers who
12:48: I highly respect and whose churches I'd like to promote, I do give their full identity. This would be
12:53: Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, who is the pastor of Faith Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Thorn Grove, Pennsylvania, and he wants to know if you follow the regulative principle of worship, and if not, why?
13:13: That's a very common question. No, I follow the normative principle, and I believe that the reason that I follow the normative principle rather than the regulative principle is...
13:27: Let me see how I can do this quickly because I believe we're probably coming up on a break. When I was a
13:33: Presbyterian, and I got to chapter, I believe it was chapter 20, and I started to read the definition of the regulative principle, that which is definitively taught in Scripture or by eminent and clear reason can be supported by Scripture, I thought,
13:53: A, that it's an arbitrary definition.
13:58: I don't see that in Scripture. I see that as an attempted extension from rational argumentation, and if the caveat to the regulative principle is if we can identify through clear and eminent reason in Scripture the actions that we perform, well, from my standpoint, that gives away the house from a
14:28: Presbyterian perspective because I can give eminent and clear reasons as to why I do what
14:35: I do on Sunday, and that's what the book actually discusses, why I do what
14:40: I do on Sundays and why it comes from Scripture. And just so our listeners know who may be unfamiliar with those terms, regulative principle and normative principle, regulative principle of worship would be the belief that everything we do in a worship service, not in all other areas of Christian life and devotion, but in a gathered corporate worship service, everything must be based on an example or command in the
15:14: New Testament, and the normative principle would take liberty in the silence, whereas the regulative principle advocates take silence in the
15:29: Scripture as a restriction or a prohibition from doing something, the normative principle advocates would take liberty where there is silence.
15:41: Would that be an adequate, accurate definition of those two terms? Do you have anything to add to them?
15:46: Yeah, I would sharpen it by saying this, the normative principle states that as long as the practice is not in direct conflict or contrast with clearly expressed
16:01: Scripture, then it's a matter of conscience as to whether one does or does not implement it.
16:08: Right. So it dovetails on what you were saying. Right. And if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
16:18: chrisarnson at gmail dot com. If you have a question, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
16:24: Please always give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
16:29: USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
16:34: Let's say you are evolving in your own understanding of this topic, and your beliefs are at odds with your own pastor.
16:43: Or perhaps you are a pastor, and your beliefs have become at odds with your fellow elders, your denomination, or anything like that.
16:54: We would readily understand that you would want to remain anonymous, and we will grant your request. But if it's just a general question, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.
17:04: I'd like to ask you a question that will sort of unify our listeners of varying backgrounds into the conversation so they don't feel too isolated or outside the specific realm of thought and practice.
17:25: There are people who have played a great role or great roles in your life in the forming of this book that are not
17:35: Anglican or were not Anglican. We have, first of all, a person who is one of my modern -day heroes of the faith who is now in heaven with Christ, John Gerstner, also the late
17:51: Dr. R .C. Sproul, and those who are among the living still,
17:57: Dr. John M. Frame and Dr. Michael S.
18:03: Horton. Dr. Horton has been a guest on this program a number of times, and the only ones on that list
18:12: I have not interviewed are the late Dr. Gerstner and Dr. Frame.
18:18: How have these great men of faith shaped your beliefs?
18:26: Wow, what a great question. You obviously have gone through at least the dedication of the book. Well, I've read a bit more than that.
18:34: I did not have time to complete the book, but I've read a bit of it. Well, let's see.
18:41: Would you like me to recount the story of Dr.
18:48: Gerstner? Would you like that? Yes, sure. Okay. In the early 90s,
18:55: I was a member of the organization Christians United for Reformation.
19:02: One of my responsibilities was, as the Director of Communications, to try with others, but one of my responsibilities was to try and identify individuals with whom we could have come and speak at the
19:18: Academy, which was our Friday night adult Bible study. Well, I had recently graduated from Westminster, and one of the professors down at Westminster, a good friend of mine,
19:33: Jim Denison, he was a student along with R .C.
19:38: and Jim were classmates at Pittsburgh Seminary. Well, Dr. Gerstner was the
19:44: Professor of Church History at Pittsburgh, and both
19:49: Jim and R .C. maintained contact with Dr. Gerstner over the years, obviously.
19:56: Well, I got the brilliant idea to, and I'm being facetious when
20:02: I say that, to see if we could get Dr. Gerstner to come to the
20:08: Academy to speak on his most recently published book, wrongly defining the
20:16: Word of Truth. Word of Truth. Word of Truth, right. Excellent book. I want to tell you something that Dr.
20:23: Gerstner told me when we had him, and people can take it for what it's worth, but I know that there was a lot of pushback on,
20:34: I'll get to the Hyper -Calvinism. Well, and doing a hatchet job. Well, I asked, when he was here,
20:43: I asked him specifically, I said, what is your take on the criticism?
20:49: And he looked at me and he said, and this is all he said, he said, when I submitted the manuscript to Wolgamoth and Hyatt, it was 1100 pages.
20:58: So if you have the book on your shelf, you can see what happened in the editing process, and speaking as now an author, having gone through that process,
21:10: I know how painful that must have been for him. So anyway, we brought him out, and we had him speak for two days on that particular book.
21:23: You shouldn't butt this up, Chris, because there's a lot of stories that happened that weekend that I would love to share with you. Because Dr.
21:30: Gerstner, if you know anything about him personally, he was quite a card.
21:36: He really was. Yes, I've seen him preach probably five times, and I loved every one of his sermons.
21:44: One more story, and then I'll finish. I apologize, but I just love the man, and I love talking about him.
21:51: During one of the Q &As that weekend, we had a gentleman stand up. Now, if you read the book, if you know anything about the book,
21:59: Dr. Gerstner goes after Arminianism, he goes after Dispensationalism. And somebody stood up and asked the question,
22:06: Dr. Gerstner, do you believe Charles Ryrie is a Christian? Needless to say, you could have heard a pin drop in the sanctuary.
22:20: And Dr. Gerstner paused for a minute, and if you've ever seen him when he does that, he kind of hung his head a little bit, and then you see that smirk.
22:29: And he turned around, and he looked at the
22:41: Evangelical Theological Society, and he said, I genuinely do not believe that he believes in his heart what he teaches, because if he does believe his theology, he's not a believer.
22:59: And the air was literally sucked out of the room that night.
23:06: Well, that actually reminds me of one of my first experiences attending the
23:14: PCRT, the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology. And Dr.
23:20: Gerstner was one of the speakers, and he was comparing Tulip Christianity, and he had developed his own acronym for Arminianism, and I think he called it
23:30: Lilac, I'm not sure. Yeah, I think you're right. And I remember him, at the conclusion of his comparison, with James Montgomery Boyce sitting behind him as white as a sheet, looking very nervous and afraid.
23:50: Dr. Gerstner said, You cannot be a Lilac Christian, actually believe what you say you believe, and be saved.
23:59: Let me repeat that. You cannot be a Lilac Christian, actually believe what you say you believe, and be saved.
24:06: And you could have heard a pin drop in that room as well. Yep, that's him, Emphysema et al. So anyway, we had him for church on Sunday, and at the time we were at a
24:23: Reformed Episcopal Church. And Dr. Gerstner came to worship with us, and when time for communion came around, for those that are not familiar with a traditional
24:38: Anglican service, you go forward to the communion rail and you kneel to receive communion.
24:45: Now, if you know anything about a de jure Presbyterian, the idea of going forward to a rail is, the best way to describe it would be otherworldly in and of itself.
24:59: But to have one kneel would be just unthinkable in the standard understanding of what takes place in a
25:09: Presbyterian worship service. Dr. Gerstner came forward, he knelt, and he received communion.
25:18: Now, he had just had back surgery. So, Jim Denison, my good
25:23: Scott friend, threatened me. He said, you better take care of him. I said, okay, Jim, I will take care of him.
25:30: And I helped him up from the rail, and he immediately bolted out the back doors of the sanctuary.
25:38: And I was concerned, I was hoping that he wasn't feeling ill. So I followed him, and I just noticed that he was distancing himself from me.
25:50: So I let him have his privacy, and we were worshiping in a facility that was in a business complex.
26:00: So he walked to the end of the street, crossed over to the other side of the business complex, and then walked back down.
26:08: And I walked out to meet him, and he looked at me, and he took me by the arm, and he did that thing that he would sometimes do.
26:15: He wagged his finger at me, and he said, you Anglicans, you do it right.
26:22: And that stuck with me. That stuck with me forever. In fact, we could pick up on that story, because we have to go to our first break right now.
26:30: Please. And if anybody, as I said before, wants to join us with a question of your own, chrisarnson at gmail .com
26:36: is the email address. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.
26:45: If you live outside the U .S .A., only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We'll be right back with Paul Castellano, and As It Is in Heaven, a biblical, historical, and theological introduction to the traditional church and her worship, right after these messages from our sponsors.
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37:39: Paul Castellano. Please hold off with the mafia jokes. We don't need that right now.
37:47: But we are discussing his book, As It Is in Heaven, a Biblical, Historical, and Theological Introduction to the
37:53: Traditional Church and Her Worship. And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
37:58: chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
38:05: USA. And before we go to your personal testimony of salvation, or a summary thereof, if you have anything further to add about the late
38:15: Dr. John Gerstner, who is one of my heroes of the faith, and also the late R .C.
38:20: Sproul, John Frame, and Michael Horton, and how they helped develop your own theology.
38:27: Oh, sure. Well, the influence of Dr.
38:34: Gerstner was merely, I shouldn't say merely, was primarily on his rigor. If you've ever listened to him and read his material, you understand that he was exacting in his argumentation.
38:53: And that influenced me tremendously. Not only was it his personal piety and the experience that I had with him worshipping, but just to engage him intellectually was, it was both a challenge and a joy, and the same for R .C.'s
39:12: influence in my life. I'm a bit older than you, Chris. Well, I'm 59.
39:21: I don't know if that still is your opinion. I got you. I got you by a few. And R .C.'s
39:27: influence in my life started back in 1977, when
39:32: Ligonier was fledgling. I actually sent
39:38: Chris Larson pictures of some of the material that I had from the original Ligonier days, pictures of R .C.
39:48: and cassette tapes that used to come in a six -cassette package with one spot missing if it was only a five -lecture series where you could get $2 off on your next cassette.
40:03: But I was stationed in Europe when I first encountered R .C., and I had just come out of the
40:15: Roman Church. I was a part of, at that time, a navigator ministry.
40:24: I don't know if your audience is familiar with the navigators, but they were essentially, or are essentially, a corollary to Camper's Crusade for Christ.
40:34: If you know what Camper's Crusade for Christ is, then you'll have an idea as to what the navigators were. Dawson Trotman was a former naval man, and he developed that ministry.
40:43: And Navicress published some of Jerry Bridges' works, the late Jerry Bridges, who was a wonderful guest on this program a number of times.
40:52: Yes, that's absolutely correct. I was a part of that ministry.
40:59: I came across a lecture by R .C., and it was,
41:05: I believe, the first cassette that I had that I had the opportunity to listen to.
41:13: I encountered his book, Knowing Scripture, first, and then I heard him give a lecture called
41:19: Half God Said. And it was the Jubilee Conference at Westminster, and I was hooked.
41:27: And from that point forward, I needed to acquire anything that he said or wrote.
41:36: I had attended virtually every Ligonier conference, their national conference, for 30 years.
41:45: Only recently have I not been able to get back east. And what struck me most about R .C.,
41:53: outside of all of his other amazing gifts, and just the person that he was,
41:59: I had the opportunity to meet him on a couple of occasions briefly. He was unbelievably gracious.
42:07: But what truly got me about R .C. was, having come out of the Roman Church, you experience a, well, there's first a letdown.
42:21: You feel disappointed and betrayed. And then you feel angry. And I'm sure you can relate to some of this.
42:28: And what I wound up hearing from R .C., when R .C. would lecture, and if you go back and you listen to R .C.'s
42:33: lectures, and you read his material, what you find is that R .C. doesn't speak exclusively about, well, in the 1st century
42:44: Protestantism, or in the 9th century Protestantism, or in the 13th century
42:49: Protestantism. What R .C. did was R .C. spoke of the
42:54: Church. And that struck me. He identified the body of Christ, historically, in such a way that it put a lot of my
43:06: Church history in context. When the issue needed to be raised, that we are differentiating between this particular ideological concept and that particular ideological concept, he made no bones about separating
43:24: Protestant understanding from any other understanding. But that struck me.
43:31: And it was interesting because one of the motivating factors, not the only one, but one of the motivating factors in one of the chapters in the book, comes directly from an interaction
43:43: I had with him in 1986. He came out to California and he spoke at a non -denominational church,
43:51: Mariner's Church. And at the time, Mariner's was meeting in the, the only thing
44:02: I can call it is a massive foyer. It was just this huge open area with these large, well, they would resemble bay windows.
44:14: It was just massive, beautiful view. But it was empty. All that was there were folding chairs. R .C.
44:20: was speaking on architecture and the Church. And he asked a general question.
44:28: He said, how many of you have ever been to either a
44:37: European cathedral or an Anglican church, you know, pre -1960s or Eastern Orthodox Church?
44:47: How many of you have ever worshipped in one of these churches? You know, a smattering of people raised their hands. I raised my hand and he happened to be looking in my direction and he looked at me and he said, how many of you are
44:59: Roman Catholic? And I kept my hand up and he goes, you're still a Roman Catholic? And I said, no, I left the church years ago.
45:05: And he goes, ah, you don't count. Now, obviously he was teasing.
45:12: But he then went on to talk about the sense of awe and reverence and that got me to think about the relationship between theology and architecture.
45:23: But to sum up my interaction with R .C.
45:28: over the years, even if it was just casual, I'm good friends with his daughter,
45:36: Sherry, and her husband. I know most of the people at the Ligonier staff and I can honestly tell you this, that from the moment
45:43: I attended college, my entire academic career and my entire spiritual journey was nothing more than an attempt to mimic
45:54: R .C. And I know that he wouldn't agree with some of the stuff in the book, but he had such an impact on me that when
46:05: I had the very humbling privilege to attend his memorial service, it was all
46:16: I could do to not break down and cry. And I say that as a man that just had maybe a half a dozen casual interactions with him, but the overall effect of his ministry and his person on me as an individual formed my theological and philosophic education, without a doubt.
46:44: So I stand very humbly indebted to Dr. Sproul and what he has contributed to my life.
46:55: And perhaps even a briefer summary of how John Frame and Michael Horton have helped to frame your thought and ideology and theology.
47:06: Sure. I apologize. My wife always gets on me for being too verbose. John, if you have ever encountered anything that John has ever written, you know that John is a brilliant man.
47:18: Just one of the most gifted intellects that I've had the privilege to interact with and be taught by.
47:27: I was a cantankerous, obnoxious New Yorker when I went to Westminster.
47:33: Isn't that a redundant phrase that you just used? You're just repeating yourself,
47:39: Paul. But anyway, and I am not a Vantillian. I wasn't a
47:44: Vantillian when I attended Westminster. I had just come out of a philosophy program at Long Beach.
47:51: But I intentionally went to Westminster because of John. I wanted to go to Philly, but Vantill had already retired, and John was the heir apparent.
48:01: So I wanted to study under him, and I was just aghast with this transcendental approach to apologetics.
48:11: And I won't go into all of that, but I really was obnoxious, and I was very disrespectful to him as a student.
48:22: It was horrific. I look back at it now, and I'm embarrassed when I even think about it.
48:28: I had to, years later, I had to write him a very, very long apology letter, to which he graciously accepted.
48:34: And that, outside of the intellectual influence that he had and the challenges that he presented to me academically, it was his
48:41: Christian character. He's one of the most godly men you will ever encounter.
48:47: The Christ -like testimony that he gives. And we're good friends now. We communicate regularly.
48:55: He's just amazing. Mike's influence on me was, we were classmates at Westminster for one year.
49:02: I'm older than him, but he was a year ahead of me, because I did my time in the military. I worked with him at Cure, and I watched him crank out book after book after book.
49:15: And it was just remarkable to see the diligence, the perseverance. As I said, few are as prolific as he is, and that's what motivated me.
49:27: So that was the influence that he had on me to get this book done. Great. And we're going to be, in a moment, going to our midway break, which is the longer than normal break.
49:39: But could you, in the next couple of minutes, summarize for us, before we go into your personal testimony when we return from the break, what are the elements that you believe are required to be present if one were to accurately describe himself as a high churchman?
50:03: Oh, if accurately described. They would have to be committed to Scripture, without a doubt.
50:12: They would have to be able to justify everything that they do from Scripture. But ritual and ceremony are a part of every form of worship.
50:22: It doesn't matter whether you're in a Calvary Chapel setting, whether you're at a Harvest setting, it makes no difference.
50:30: Every service has ritual and ceremony, and I'm defining those terms broadly.
50:36: Ritual are simply the elements such as preaching, public prayer, and the sacraments,
50:44: Lord's Supper, whereas the ceremony is how you put it all together. So those are the core elements, and then to be high church would be to take that ritual, identify certain elements of the ritual that we perform on a
51:01: Sunday, draw them from Scripture, obviously give them a Christological interpretation rather than a
51:07: Mosaic interpretation, and then take those ritualistic elements, package them in a ceremony that would include an altar, and people get weirded out by the term altar.
51:22: Altar and table are interchangeable terms in Scripture, and they mean essentially the same thing, except when you're talking about sacrifice, which is what we are not talking about.
51:32: But let's say table just for the sake of simplicity. You have to have a table you have to have for high church. Now you can go high church and then you can go notably.
51:47: My presentation of high church would be you have the communion table, you have the royal, you have candles.
51:55: Between two and eight, it's personal preference, but usually there's eight if you're high church.
52:03: Incense and the sanctus bells plus the liturgical attire, as I mentioned.
52:09: Orb, surplus, stole, and that's it. Anything more than that, then it gets to be, if you're talking about excessive icons, if you're talking about statues, then
52:22: I have concerns. There would have to be some serious unpacking as to what all that means.
52:30: I try to shy away from those, to be honest, but I think in a nutshell, that's how
52:38: I would define what I see high church to be. Okay, we have to go to our midway break, and it's a longer than normal break in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
52:48: FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to air their own public service announcements and other things that localize this program to Lake City, Florida, geographically, and while they do that, we air our globally heard commercials, so please use this time wisely by writing down as much of the information as you can provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, and sometimes that means just reaching out to them by whatever contact information they provide in their commercials and saying thank you for sponsoring
53:21: Iron Trump and Zion Radio. When you can't purchase their products or use their services or visit their churches, at least do that.
53:28: Thank them for sponsoring the show, if indeed you love the show, and also use this time to write in a question to our guest,
53:36: Paul Castellano, on high church worship, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,
53:41: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
53:48: USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Paul Castellano after these messages from our sponsors.
54:05: I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. My friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia once again for the
54:14: G3 conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme,
54:22: Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and singing, including
54:31: John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Conrad M. Bayway, Daryl Bernard Harrison, and Virgil Walker.
54:37: For details, visit g3conference .com, that's g3conference .com. Chris Arnson and I hope to see you
54:44: September 30th through October 2nd at G321. This is James White reminding you that Christ is
54:49: Supreme Over All. Hi, this is
54:56: John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the
55:04: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
55:15: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
55:24: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised
55:31: Chris up for just such a time. Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
55:41: I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
55:46: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
55:55: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,
56:02: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Here's what
56:10: Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.
56:16: Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for more than 30 years.
56:26: Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.
56:33: We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air, so I don't have to brag about myself.
56:40: Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.
56:47: Eastern Time, at ironsharpensironradio .com. Are you tired of looking for the silver bullet when it comes to health and wellness?
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57:36: But what if God has given us a better way? What if we can take the Christian worldview found in the Bible and apply it to health and wellness?
57:42: My book, Health for All of Life, does just that. You can find this exciting new book on Amazon. Pick up a copy for yourself and for your friends and family.
57:50: Give the gift of health and don't be a dead end to truth. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
58:11: A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
58:21: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.
58:29: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
58:35: God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a
58:40: God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
58:55: Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace
59:03: .com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.
59:10: Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.
59:20: Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Getting a driver's license.
59:37: Running a cash register. Flipping burgers. Passing 6th grade. Do you know what they all have in common?
59:43: They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?
59:50: Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.
59:58: I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.
01:00:08: That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents
01:00:14: God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.
01:00:26: Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com. I'm Dr.
01:00:38: Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love.
01:00:48: Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.
01:00:56: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
01:01:13: Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.
01:01:20: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.
01:01:29: For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to HopeReformedLI .net.
01:01:36: That's HopeReformedLI .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.
01:01:45: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
01:02:06: Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops and local hangouts,
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01:02:53: For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.
01:03:00: That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.
01:03:09: That's liyfc .org. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,
01:03:22: Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.
01:03:30: He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.
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01:03:42: Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.
01:03:55: Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages.
01:04:02: We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com. That's Solid -Ground -Books .com
01:04:10: and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.
01:04:16: Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And among the many other excellent books that they publish at Solid -Ground -Books .com,
01:04:29: they offer a number of Anglican titles that my Anglican listeners should get their hands on as quickly as possible.
01:04:37: First of all, there is an excellent book that I've done at least one interview on with Thomas Garrett Isham called
01:04:44: A Born -Again Episcopalian, the Evangelical Witness of Charles Pettit Meikleveen.
01:04:51: You could also get Brother Isham's book Rock of Ages, Augustus Toplady, the little -known man behind the well -known hymn.
01:05:00: And if you listen to this program often enough, you know that I absolutely love the writings of 19th century
01:05:07: Episcopalian Stephen H. Ting, who was at one time the rector of St.
01:05:14: George's Episcopal Church in New York City, currently being pastored by my friend
01:05:20: Jacob Smith, who is the rector there. Stephen H. Ting has written a book available from Solid -Ground -Books .com
01:05:29: called The Christian Pastor, The Office and Duty of the Gospel Minister, and also lectures on the law and the gospel.
01:05:38: So, for those and many other books that you will surely want to add to your library and also give as gifts with Easter coming up and all other kinds of events where you should be giving your loved ones gifts that direct them to the gospel of Jesus Christ, go to Solid -Ground -Books .com.
01:05:58: Solid -Ground -Books .com. Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:06:04: Before we return to our guest, we just have a couple of very important announcements to make. If you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com,
01:06:16: click support, then click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing so.
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01:07:26: Those two things are commands of God and Scripture providing for your church and providing for your family.
01:07:31: Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of Scripture. But, if you love this program and you don't want it to disappear and you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, then please go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com,
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01:07:56: Last but not least, if you are not a member of a local, biblically faithful, theologically sound church, no matter where in the world you live,
01:08:05: I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches all over the globe and I may be able to help you find a church, sometimes even right around the corner from where you live, as I have done already with many people in our audience in all parts of the world who didn't even know the churches that I am aware of existed, or if they knew the churches existed, they didn't know that they were theologically sound.
01:08:25: So, please, if you are in that number of folks that need a church, no matter where in the world you live, send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com,
01:08:33: ChrisArnson at gmail .com, and put, I need a church, in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today,
01:08:45: Paul Castellano, as we continue our discussion on the,
01:08:51: As It Is in Heaven, a Biblical, Historical, and Theological Introduction to the
01:08:56: Traditional Church and Her Worship, which is the title of Paul's latest book, and that's
01:09:03: ChrisArnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the
01:09:11: USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. And as our custom is, on I Interpret Zion Radio, Paul, I would like you to now give a summary of your salvation testimony.
01:09:24: We have a tradition that first -time guests give a summary of their salvation testimony, including what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, they were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our
01:09:36: Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them. So, let us know about your story.
01:09:43: Yeah, I would love to. But on a personal note, before I start, I have to say, Chris, as a
01:09:48: New York expat, it is music to my ears to hear your wonderful New York accent on I Come Back Home.
01:10:02: And believe it or not, there are friends of mine on Long Island who have far more of a thick
01:10:08: New York accent than I have. I believe it. I just love hearing it. I apologize.
01:10:16: Let me give you one, I have to give you one quick anecdote. I forgot to mention this when I was talking about R .C.
01:10:21: I told you that I had visited, I had attended Ligonier conferences for over 30 years. But R .C.
01:10:27: was still ambulatory. He used to walk down the center aisle of every conference towards the podium, and I would sit on the very furthest aisle seat so that I could have a direct view at the speaker.
01:10:43: And after I became ordained, I would attend the conferences in collar, and every time
01:10:49: R .C. would walk down the aisle, he'd smack me in the back of the head. So that gives you an idea as to the relationship that he and I had.
01:10:59: Anyway, my testimony as raised, as I mentioned earlier, I was raised in a Roman Catholic church, went to parochial school for 10 of 12 years, essentially completed my high school education for all intents and purposes at a parochial school.
01:11:17: When I was 15, I had what I could best describe as a crisis of Roman Catholic faith, because it was in the early 70s, and they brought in a religion teacher.
01:11:34: I don't know why they brought in a religion teacher at a Roman Catholic high school, but they did. And she was a
01:11:40: Buddhist. Wow. Between you and me and the door,
01:11:46: I would love to have been involved in the HR interview process, that hiring scenario.
01:11:53: While the monsignor was asking her, do you believe in the authority of the Bible? No.
01:11:59: Do you believe in the resurrection? No. Do you believe in the ascension? No. Do you believe in the deity of Christ? No. You're hired.
01:12:06: I mean, that gives you some idea as to what was going on while I was in school.
01:12:15: During one of the first weeks of our class, we were talking about the
01:12:23: Garden of Eden, and she went on to state that Eden was not an actual historical real place,
01:12:30: Adam and Eve were not actual historical real people, and I was only a teenager at the time, but I thought, hey, if the first chapter of the book aren't real, then
01:12:39: I'm not going to bother with the rest of it. So I became an atheist at 15. Well, that went on for a few years, and I wound up getting...
01:12:51: I was a rather raucous young man, let's say. As you can imagine, a kid from Brooklyn, and I was kicked out of my house, and I had to join the military.
01:13:01: I joined the military, and I wound up being stationed in northern
01:13:06: Italy in the mid -70s. And while I was there,
01:13:12: I wound up the roommate of a Missouri Synod Lutheran.
01:13:18: Very evangelical. He was a part of that Navigator ministry that I had mentioned. Well, in the short of it, after about a month on the base,
01:13:27: I committed my life to Christ, October 8, 1976, at 737, in the evening.
01:13:35: And I subsequently found out that the ministry there, the Navigator ministry on base at Aviano, had received word that their leader, the leader of the ministry, was transferring out, and they had been praying that his replacement, that would be
01:13:55: I, would be either Christian or receptive. So they had been praying for me and my salvation for the better part of three months before I ever arrived.
01:14:07: And once I arrived, I wound up attending...
01:14:12: In the community, there was a European Baptist church, which is the
01:14:17: European extension of the SBC. And I attended a European Baptist church for the better part of four years, and that church went through quite a transition.
01:14:28: I still remember that it's almost 50 years later. It actually is about 50 years later. And the pastor's name was
01:14:36: Danny Fisher. I still remember to this day. Just an incredibly ingratiating gentleman.
01:14:43: But they went through a Pentecostal and then a charismatic phase. And I came back to the
01:14:50: States, and I went through the entire evangelical journey. I was a member of a
01:14:57: GARB church. I was a member of a Reformed Baptist church. I was a member of a Grace Brethren church, until I finally wound up a member of the
01:15:04: Presbyterian church. And then from the Presbyterian church, I went to Westminster, and while I was at Westminster, I became an
01:15:10: Anglican. That is about as briefly as I could ever state that. My wife would be proud.
01:15:17: Well, also, the introduction and embracing of high church, because as many of our
01:15:30: Anglican listeners may be wanting to immediately introduce into the subject, that is an area of controversy, even among Anglicans.
01:15:40: Not all Anglicans are high church. So when did you become intrigued by high church to the point where you embraced it and now have even written a book supporting it?
01:15:53: I won't name the graduate school to protect the guilty, but when
01:15:59: I was in graduate school, I wound up having a conversation with one of my professors.
01:16:08: And the conversation was about worship. It was about church polity, how the government of the church is structured.
01:16:18: And it was about ministerial orders. And he wound up making a comment that essentially said, well, there's no explicit
01:16:31: New Testament teaching that indicates one particular form of church government and orders are commanded.
01:16:43: And that didn't sit well with me. I was familiar enough with Scripture to know that God is a very precise, very exact God, and it just seemed to be a bit loose and not very convincing, to be honest.
01:17:04: Now, whether or not one is convinced of an argument doesn't make the argument true or false. I know a lot of people that are not convinced with arguments that are indubitably fact.
01:17:14: But for me, I was not convinced. And that launched me into this study. And I originally was low church.
01:17:23: And the more I started to delve into this, the more I started to learn from my
01:17:30: Presbyterian brethren, ironically enough, the ins and outs of theological research, theological examination, how to incorporate
01:17:46: Scripture in its full contextual orb, if you will, and then encountering
01:17:57: Gehard as Ross and Meredith Klein, who both of them would never agree with anything that I say about this subject, but it was their understanding of redemptive history that started to drive me more and more to a high church understanding of worship.
01:18:16: And to be honest, Chris, much of how I understand worship, much of how
01:18:24: I understand whether one's high church or low church, in my case high church, comes from an application of Gehard as Ross, the great
01:18:37: Dutch Princeton reformed theologian, and Meredith Klein, my Old Testament professor at Westminster.
01:18:43: So I am very confident and very relaxed in calling myself a high church
01:18:53: Calvinist. Okay, well, we have a listener who
01:19:00: I will also give his full name because he's another pastor I regard very highly, whose church that I look for every opportunity to promote.
01:19:10: I'm speaking of Pastor Angelo Valley. Oh, my buddy Angelo. Yeah, Christ Reformed Church, Alexandria, Pennsylvania, which is a congregation that just recently entered the
01:19:21: PCA. And I know that even though Angelo is
01:19:26: Presbyterian, as you are probably fully aware, he also has a great love for the
01:19:32: Book of Common Prayer. And he has three questions, and I usually don't take three questions from one listener, but I will read all of his.
01:19:43: He says, how would you help lay people from a more contemporary church learn to value purposeful liturgical worship?
01:19:52: Wow. I would expect nothing less from a Westminster graduate. I would think that, wow,
01:20:01: Chris, what a great question. It's so robust. The problem that we have in the
01:20:07: United States, and this is a direct criticism of American Christianity, so if you're listening and you are going to be offended, plug your ears.
01:20:15: I think American Christianity is far too interested in the subjective aspects, the individualism of what they have imbibed from American culture, and that's the first thing that has to happen for people to truly be able to appreciate.
01:20:32: Whether it's a liturgical service from an Anglican perspective or a
01:20:38: Presbyterian or a Lutheran perspective, each of us have our own expressions of what liturgy is.
01:20:46: But if that's what they're wanting to do, they have to truly go in divesting themselves, separating themselves from the idea that I'm here to be entertained, when in actuality,
01:20:58: I am here to worship God. Kierkegaard made the statement, and I believe it was
01:21:03: Jim Boyce, and for the life of me I cannot find the quote, but I'm almost 100 % convinced it was
01:21:11: Jim that made the statement. He was repeating Kierkegaard, where Kierkegaard said, the
01:21:17: American people think that they are the audience, that the minister is the entertainer and God's the director.
01:21:29: Well, Kierkegaard pointed out, no, God's the audience. The congregation are the players, and it's the minister that's the conductor.
01:21:41: And we need to get back into that mindset when we go into a liturgical service. And then, quite honestly, it's just a matter of being patient, becoming familiar with what's going on, and recognizing that what we're experiencing is, depending upon the iteration, closely derived from a holy writ.
01:22:04: And... Well, he wanted to win a free book.
01:22:17: And his second question is, and it's interesting how often Reformed people use the term robust, as you just did, how can a more robust liturgical approach to worship catechize the saints, and in what ways does this impact their evangelistic conversations with non -believers?
01:22:39: If one truly involves themselves in a liturgical service, they are going to find that every aspect of their lives are incorporated and affected by liturgical worship.
01:22:55: They are... I will use my situation to illustrate.
01:23:04: If you are involved in a liturgical service that I am conducting, the first thing that's going to happen is you're going to stand when the procession into the sanctuary occurs.
01:23:17: We hold a cross. The cross is a symbol of the banner for the church.
01:23:25: Each in Israel, whenever they were on the move, and they packed up the tabernacle and encased the
01:23:33: Ark of the Covenant, they all moved out, all twelve tribes moved out with a banner indicating the tribe itself with the
01:23:41: Ark of the Covenant at its head. And all eyes were focused on that, and the cross represents essentially the same thing.
01:23:49: So you're going to stand. And then when the service begins, you're going to kneel, and then you're going to sit for instruction, and you're going to stand, and you're going to sit, and you're going to kneel.
01:23:57: It's going to shape and form your entire life. Not in a legalistic sense. Not in the sense that, you know, you have to absolutely do this even if you're crippled.
01:24:06: No. I mean, if you can't do this, you can't do it. But Christianity is as much a physical religion as it is a spiritual and conceptual religion.
01:24:17: And we have to have our full person, just as we have the
01:24:23: Incarnation and the full person of Christ in our lives, we have to be fully involved in every element of who we are in worship.
01:24:34: And that means getting our bodies as well as our minds, because we have a tendency, again, once again
01:24:40: I'm going to, unfortunately, take a shot at the American Church, we have a tendency to be implicit
01:24:45: Gnostics, and it all takes place between the ears, and everything else is adiaphora.
01:24:52: So that's how I would say, and if you want to extend that into some sort of evangelistic endeavor, that's exactly how
01:25:02: I would approach it. I would turn around and, in any evangelistic context,
01:25:08: I would say, let's assume that I'm talking to a non -believer rather than a believer. I would simply say that once one commits their life to Christ, they commit their entire person to Christ.
01:25:21: And if you are coming to our service, you are going to be completely and fully involved.
01:25:30: You're not going to be bored, and believe me when I tell you, this will not be irrelevant. Because you're going to not only be confronted with the
01:25:38: Triune God of the Universe, in word, by the preaching, you're also going to be confronted with Him in every other way, physically, visually, tactically, auditorily, by your factory senses, in every possible way.
01:25:58: So your whole person will be involved. This will not simply be an exercise in you expecting to be entertained.
01:26:06: You're going to be required to commit to being involved.
01:26:14: And Pastor Angelo's third question, where can a reader go to study more on Biblical liturgical worship?
01:26:21: Well, obviously, the book that we're discussing, Angelo. What kind of a question is that? But do you have any other resources?
01:26:32: Oh yeah, there are so many out there. The difficulty for me as a professor, it's parsing out the material that becomes too technical for the normal person.
01:26:48: But there was a book written by a wonderful scholar,
01:26:57: Brian Stewart, who graduated from the University of Virginia, who wrote Priests of My People.
01:27:02: Don't get freaked out about the word priest. There's also a book that was written by a
01:27:07: Roman Catholic from Notre Dame College, called Jesus and the
01:27:14: Jewish Roots of the Eucharist by Brant Pitcher. And of course, probably the one that stands out in everybody's thinking when they start talking about this is
01:27:29: Peter Toon's book, The Worship of God Through the
01:27:35: Liturgy. There's another great one, A History of Anglican Liturgy by G .J.
01:27:42: Cumming. The Parsons Handbook by Percy Diermer. There are many, many, many books that one can research.
01:27:53: But those are the ones that I would begin with. Well, Angelo, make sure you give me your full mailing address, so that cvbbs .com,
01:28:03: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship you out a free copy of this book that we are addressing as it is in heaven, a biblical, historical, and theological introduction to the traditional church and her worship.
01:28:18: And we want to thank our friends at Wheat Mark, who published this book, for supplying us with the free copies that we are giving away to a limited number of folks.
01:28:31: We have an anonymous listener who says, We have in Leviticus chapter 10 a very frightening incident that occurred when
01:28:45: Nadab and Abihu were killed by God himself for improperly burning incense before him as an act of worship.
01:28:54: How is what you are doing by including incense in your worship any different than taking a novel approach using the excuse that it exists in the
01:29:04: Old Testament? Right. First of all, the obvious response would be that in Leviticus 10,
01:29:20: Nadab and Abihu offered strange incense. The priests were required to offer incense.
01:29:25: I mean, that's straight out of Deuteronomy. So the idea that offering incense at any level is false or heretical or unbiblical is inaccurate.
01:29:39: Nadab and Abihu were judged for doing something that was not specifically commanded by God.
01:29:48: They offered a type of incense that was false. The second issue involves, for all intents and purposes, the essential structure of my book.
01:29:59: When we wind up having these discussions in general, we start talking about worship.
01:30:06: We get into an interaction on foundational points of beginning.
01:30:20: What I mean by that is when you speak to just the average person, even if they're fairly familiar with this particular subject, they'll say, well, we derive worship from the early church.
01:30:39: Some will say, well, ours comes from the synagogue. Others will say, well, we derived it from the synagogue's understanding of the temple.
01:30:45: Well, we derived it from the temple. Or we understand worship to come from the tabernacle, which all have an element of truth.
01:30:56: But the actual starting place is the title of my book. The actual starting place for all of worship is heaven.
01:31:03: And then what makes that the defining principle is the intrusion of the revelation of God into the human realm and the covenantal connection between the old and the new covenant.
01:31:26: And that, I know, is of late a very sticky subject, whether it's
01:31:33: New Covenant theology or Progressive Covenantalism. I understand those things, but traditionally, the covenants have always been seen as exhibiting continuity.
01:31:46: Not identity, but continuity. So, when you put all of that together, that's how
01:31:55: I would respond to the question, by saying that, no, I'm not doing anything that's fast and loose or playing three -card
01:32:04: Monty with my argument. Nadab and Abihu were condemned for a very specific sin.
01:32:11: And incense were required of all priests, and that was communicated to Moses via divine revelation on Mount Sinai.
01:32:20: And it actually is anticipated in the Garden of Eden itself.
01:32:26: Now, how do you differentiate your incense from Nadab and Abihu's incense? You mean strange incense?
01:32:35: Yes, I mean, how is it, was it the physical? Strange versus, oh, okay.
01:32:41: Well, that would then get into a discussion as to what
01:32:46: Nadab and Abihu were actually doing. And there are a number of different Old Testament scholars that approach that text with varying interpretations.
01:32:58: But the most consistent thread that comes through, it isn't that they were drunk, that's one argument, but the most consistent thread that comes through is that the incense that they were required to offer before the veil in the
01:33:19: Holy of Holies was incense that would have been, and these are the
01:33:24: Old Testament scholars, this is not my interpretation, but it would have been something akin to what was being offered to Molech.
01:33:32: And they were now not in the sense that they were offering Molech worship, but in the sense that they were borrowing a practice that was condemned.
01:33:41: And what I'm doing, and what we do when we offer incense is simply carry over from the original command as it extends through the continuity of the covenants, that the priest were to offer incense before the altar, and the high priest would offer incense around the entire arc of the covenant.
01:34:05: Is that muddy? I think you answered it as clearly as possible.
01:34:13: And I want to thank our anonymous listener, and if you give me by email, obviously we won't divulge your identity, but if you give me by email your name and your full address, we will have a free copy of the book shipped out to you.
01:34:34: And I have another anonymous question, and I would like to remind our listeners, these seem to be general questions on theology and practice, that I'm not sure why you're remaining anonymous, but I'm granting your request just because there may be reasons that I'm not familiar with.
01:34:56: But I'm asking you to please give us your full name and your city and state of residence and your country of residence.
01:35:05: Let me read these anonymous questions. In a heavenly pattern, or should
01:35:14: I say, if a heavenly pattern is revealed by scripture, does this indicate a divine command for such elements as vestments, liturgy, or altars?
01:35:28: Does Brother Castellano believe this command translates likewise to Christ's government, such as a scripture warrant for episcopacy?
01:35:39: What does he think of Article 34 of the 39 Articles in this respect?
01:35:45: Article 34 says, It is not necessary that all the traditions and ceremonies be in all places one utterly alike.
01:35:56: So if you need me to repeat those, I'll... No, that's fine. Okay. Yeah, no, that's fine.
01:36:02: Do you want me to answer now, or do you want to go to... Yeah, I guess we'll have you answer them when we return from the final break.
01:36:08: That'd be fine. Yeah, go ahead. And actually, no, I'd like you to answer them now, because I see that I have to...
01:36:16: Okay. I have to work on some other things that Google has disrupted the program with.
01:36:21: So if you could answer, that'd be great. Yeah, not a problem. Well, my response to that is this.
01:36:27: Number one, as I stated at the very beginning, I attempted to predicate everything that I wrote in the book when it comes to these types of questions, specifically on divine revelation.
01:36:40: And if we accept that scripture is infallible and inherent, and it is the only absolute authority in faith and practice, then we have to take seriously what scripture commands.
01:36:52: And so when I see what heaven states, and I see that it is in this context that Yahweh revealed to Moses on Sinai the exact, precise, divine, specified command as to how his house was to look out, how his orders for ministers were to be played out, how the church government was to materialize,
01:37:26: I have to take seriously what God's words state. Now, obviously, there will be certain differences between Old and New Covenant, between Mosaic theology versus Christological theology, but if, and this is where it may ruffle some feathers, but the fact of the matter is, and I subscribe to the 39
01:37:46: Articles, and I can interpret Article 34 very comfortably with what I'm saying, but the fact of the matter is, if I hypothetically come to the position that the 39
01:37:58: Articles differ from what I see God's word commanding me to do,
01:38:03: I hate to say this, but I will stick with God's word. Yeah, just as some of our brethren who officially adhere confessionally to the 1689
01:38:17: London Baptist Confession in the 21st century, the majority, not all, but the majority do not view the
01:38:26: Pope as the Antichrist, not because they have a softer view on the papacy, just because they believe that eschatologically that's not a correct identification.
01:38:36: Yeah, that's a fair parallel. But the fact of the matter is, if you do look at Article 34, and I don't want to get into an extended discussion as to the differences in our interpretations of the 39
01:38:52: Articles, because if you're familiar with what takes place in Anglicanism, you know that we have an ongoing battle with an
01:39:07: Anglicanist interpretation of the Articles, broadly Reformed, Lutheran, so we get into this too.
01:39:14: But if you look at it, it is not necessarily that traditions in general would be in all places, or utterly alike, for at all times they have been diverse and may be changed according to the diversity of countries, times, mens, mad.
01:39:27: The way I'm reading this, it's simply to say that there are certain things that will not be possible given your circumstances, given your country, given your culture, given your setting, your context.
01:39:44: However, when all things are equal, and you are in a situation where you have the ability to implement what
01:39:57: Scripture commands, then you do it. And you'll notice the words traditions and ceremonies.
01:40:04: People fail to understand, and this is one of the battles that I constantly have with my Anglican brethren, people fail to understand that there are certain phrases within the 39
01:40:16: Articles that are directly in response to the issues that they are historically battling.
01:40:25: Now that's not to say it's historically relative, I'm not saying that at all. But what I am saying is when they use the term traditions and ceremonies, think about it logically, when they use the term traditions and ceremonies, they're talking about something egregious.
01:40:40: Because Anglicans, even at the time of the writing of the 39 Articles, used traditions and ceremonies.
01:40:46: So the question then becomes, to what is Article 34 specifically addressing?
01:40:54: And that, to me, understood historically, is specifically addressing the heirs of Rome, and the traditions and the ceremonies that Rome brought into worship, such as a monstrance, such as the forced prayer to saints, such as the lighting of candles to saints, the veneration of statues, these types of things are the traditions and ceremonies that I believe that the 39
01:41:24: Articles are directly addressing. Because the men involved,
01:41:30: I mean, prominent initially, but the men that were involved were deeply, deeply committed to the authority of God's Word.
01:41:38: Therefore, if something is in God's Word, they're not going to eschew that simply because it may have been something viewed as a tradition.
01:41:50: No, it has to be egregious, and this goes back to the normative versus regulative understanding of worship.
01:41:56: And I apologize, I just went on too long with that, but that would be my answer to that question. Okay, and we're going to our final break.
01:42:03: If you have a question, please submit it by email immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time.
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01:44:49: Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you've just tuned us in, our guest today, for the entire two hours, has been
01:44:59: Paul Castellano, and we have been addressing his book, As It Is in Heaven, a biblical, historical, and theological introduction to the traditional church and her worship.
01:45:11: If you have a question, send it in immediately to chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.
01:45:18: Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
01:45:29: We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, would you say that churches who do not worship exactly as you are prescribing are not true churches?
01:45:46: Oh, wow. There's the question that gets people uninvited in the future.
01:45:55: Well, keep in mind that some of your heroes are also people that don't worship as you prescribe. I know. Believe me,
01:46:00: I know. I'm going to try and be diplomatic when
01:46:08: I answer this. My response to that question would be this. I believe that there are many, many, many believers on Sunday who have either not been trained, have not been taught, or misunderstand certain elements of what it is to truly worship in church.
01:46:38: And if my argument is accurate, and I will state it hypothetically,
01:46:44: I will state it in that way, if my argument is accurate, and if it is not gamesaved, and what
01:46:52: I have described is direct commands from God, then you answer the question yourself, whether or not what you're doing is true worship, and you are in a true church.
01:47:08: If what I've said differs from what you do, that would be the best way to answer that. I don't know anybody's heart, and I'm sure that we all make mistakes in worship, but I think that, and again, this is where you get in trouble, but I think that we, in many ways, have become far too concerned with not offending and not taking a stand on God's Word.
01:47:41: You know, we're dealing with big issues. We're going to defend the Trinity, okay. I'm right there with you, brother.
01:47:47: We're going to defend the inerrancy and the absolute infallibility of the Bible, okay.
01:47:52: We're going to defend the deity of Christ, yes. And then we start talking about stuff such as the structure of church government, the nature of holy orders, the issue of sacraments, and we then become, let's just say we become far more willing to let bygones be bygones, and I think we need to spend much, much more time analyzing what
01:48:21: Scripture actually says, and that is my hope for the book, that it at least contributes to the conversation.
01:48:29: Now, I'm assuming that although you may have those very strong and strict and rigid requirements for how you define a true church, you are not saying that people who have different views on high church versus low church and other matters of disagreement are not true
01:48:49: Christians, are not saying... Oh, no, no. Oh, no, by no means. Hey, let's be honest,
01:48:54: Chris, I could be wrong. And if I'm wrong, is somebody going to say, well, you're wrong, therefore you're not a true
01:49:03: Christian. No, I would never say that. Now, I could be wrong, but I would hope people would still at least acknowledge that I worship the same
01:49:12: Savior. I definitely, I definitely would never, ever assert that.
01:49:18: Yes, and in the event that there are people going totally bananas over your answer, there are many
01:49:29: Reformed Baptists and conservative Presbyterians of whom I am aware and whom
01:49:35: I highly respect who would say the same thing about a church that had female elders.
01:49:43: Oh, yeah. Now, I strongly disagree with women elders in a church, but at the same time...
01:49:52: I know Mark Deaver holds that position. I'm sorry? I know Mark Deaver holds that position. Right, but at the same time,
01:50:00: I believe they would agree with me that many of these women, and I'm not talking about the utter apostates and liberal mainline churches, but I have met
01:50:11: Bible -believing evangelical women who are elders in churches because they have followed a pattern from the
01:50:19: Wesleyan holiness movement and things like that who have ordained women for centuries. They're not doing it from a feminist, modernist perspective.
01:50:28: Even though I disagree with it, I would not say that these women are not believers. You're absolutely 100 % correct.
01:50:35: They're just bought into a faulty narrative. We have
01:50:40: Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks, from what you had said earlier when you were reflecting upon an anecdote that involved
01:50:50: John Gerstner, you practice kneeling when receiving communion. Who are those receiving the
01:50:58: Lord's Supper kneeling to? Oh, great question!
01:51:03: And one that is often truly, truly misunderstood. In the
01:51:08: Church of Rome, they are kneeling because Jesus Christ is physically present right before them.
01:51:14: That's exactly right. When I discuss the aspect of kneeling in worship, it involves, as I said, the entire structure of what's going on in the liturgy on Sunday.
01:51:32: And the way I describe it in the book, and I hate to keep doing this, but a lot of the questions will be answered in the book, even if they disagree.
01:51:42: But when you understand what's taking place, what's happening is we are not kneeling before the physical representation of Christ in the tabernacle on the altar.
01:51:59: What we're doing is we are kneeling before the throne of the God of the universe. The altar is
01:52:06: His footstool, and we are kneeling before His throne. If you walked into the Queen of England, you would bow or you would kneel.
01:52:14: It doesn't mean, well, in that case you're kneeling to her, but if you actually attend any public ceremony in the
01:52:22: UK, as a member of the Court of St. James or just as a guest, even if there is no one on that throne, you would still pay that throne respect, and that's what we're doing on Sunday.
01:52:32: We are recognizing that here in this place, God is present. We are worshiping God in spirit and in truth.
01:52:39: There is no physical manifestation of Him on the altar, but that altar is the footstool of His throne, and we are paying
01:52:47: Him homage and reverence by kneeling before His throne. Something just occurred to me that I'm wondering how much heat you take from the
01:52:57: United Episcopal Church of North America, since you have even said that there are churches in that denomination that are low church.
01:53:03: Yeah, I have brethren that disagree with me, yes.
01:53:11: They have not encountered my full argument yet. I'm hoping that they'll pick up the book, but yeah, we have disagreement.
01:53:20: And one of the things that we experience within the historic Anglican Church is that while I will be very, very staunch in my position,
01:53:31: I will never exclude a low church member tacitly.
01:53:38: I don't have the right to turn around and say, well, you worship low church, you can't be an
01:53:44: Anglican. As far as the Anglican tradition is concerned, we're a broad tent.
01:53:51: We have low, broad, and high church people. What we don't want, and what we're trying to make sure we don't incorporate, are those that turn any element of that into some sort of Anglo -Papism.
01:54:06: Yes, and one last question of my own is as far as what is actually occurring at the
01:54:16: Lord's Supper. I know that there are differences and have been differences of opinion for centuries between Lutherans and Calvinists and Zwinglians and probably most evangelical churches today view the
01:54:36: Lord's Supper as strictly a memorial. And there are a growing number of Reformed Baptists who take a view more in common with John Calvin, which is not strictly memorial.
01:54:49: Explain what you believe is going on there. And do you believe in the 39
01:54:58: Articles restriction or prohibition from parading around with the elements and other things that the
01:55:06: Church of Rome participates in? Yes, I believe that that particular restriction was, again, levied against the
01:55:13: Corpus Christi and the monstrance where they put the host in that gold glass thing and they would march around the
01:55:25: Church with it. Yes, I believe that that's what that's specifically addressing. My view, I'm going to be perfectly honest with you, my view is my view, and I don't mean to sound tautological, but what
01:55:36: I mean by that is it's a modified view of Calvin.
01:55:42: And let me explain my view so that people don't freak out any more than they're already freaking out.
01:55:49: What I believe takes place is this. I think Calvin had the right idea, but I think he described it incorrectly, and boy, am
01:55:56: I out on a limb when I critique Calvin. But I think what happens is this.
01:56:04: I believe that within the context of the entire liturgical service, the entire liturgical service is an expression of the drama of redemption from beginning to end, and I explain that in the book and how that unfolds.
01:56:20: And at the point in which we arrive at the Holy Communion, during the consecration, and I opt out for communion being a mystery at the consecration,
01:56:37: I don't know how it takes place, and I don't think I can rationally explain it any more than I can rationally explain the
01:56:45: Trinity. But I think what winds up happening is this. The bread and the wine become the instrumental means in receiving the whole person of Christ, both human and divine, and that a believer, because the
01:57:03: Holy Spirit is never separate from his head, and Christ is the head and the
01:57:10: Holy Spirit and dwells in the body of Christ, because the Holy Spirit is never separate from Christ, and the
01:57:16: Church is comprised of the Holy Spirit, the believer, at the point of the reception of the bread and the wine, and right there, in that moment, at that place, they are receiving the full
01:57:28: Christ. Now, if you press me to rationally describe that any more than that, to define that any more precisely than that,
01:57:39: I can't. And it's not that I'm trying to be slippery, but I disagree with the
01:57:46: Lutherans about the question, and I'll be polite with my
01:57:51: Lutheran brethren, I disagree with ubiquity, I reject transubstantiation.
01:57:57: I don't believe in any way that the elements become anything other than what they are, and what they are are means, they are vehicles, they are instruments by which the
01:58:08: Holy Spirit takes the believer and unites the believer to the full person of Christ, to the body and blood of Christ.
01:58:17: That's what I believe happens. Well, thank you very much for a truly fascinating two hours, brother, and I actually look forward to continuing our discussion on this topic, because we really just scratched the surface.
01:58:30: There are many other things I'd like to address. Even though I am not fully in agreement with you, I think it's very helpful and wise for us to interact with people in the body of Christ with whom we disagree.
01:58:43: And don't forget, folks, if you want to learn more information about the United Episcopal Church of North America, you can go to unitedepiscopal .org,
01:58:53: unitedepiscopal .org. If you want more information on the book we have been addressing,
01:58:59: As It Is in Heaven, you can go to wheatmark .com, w -h -e -a -t mark .com.
01:59:07: I would ask you, however, to order the book from our sponsors at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com,
01:59:17: cvbbs .com. And I would like to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write.
01:59:25: I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.