March 16, 2021 Show with Paul A. F. Castellano on “As It Is In Heaven: A Biblical, Historical & Theological Introduction to the Traditional Church & Her Worship”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on the 16th day of March 2021.

Introduction of Paul Castellano and His New Book

And I'm very excited to have as a first-time guest today, Paul A .F. Castellano. That's Paul Anthony Francis Castellano. He is an author, and he is a minister in the United Episcopal Church of North America.

And we are going to be addressing his new book, As It Is in Heaven, a Biblical, Historical, and Theological Introduction to the Traditional Church and Her Worship. And this is a subject today that I may have some differences with my guest over.

That's one of the reasons I call the program Iron Sharpens Iron. And some people have been asking me, how come you have so many Anglicans on your program? You're not Anglican. I am a Reformed Baptist, a former Roman Catholic.

And one of the reasons I have become fascinated and intrigued by Bible-believing Episcopalians and Anglicans is that half of my family, my father's side of the family, many remain Episcopalian. And some of them have jumped ship because of the liberalism to become Roman Catholic.

And I have been trying to, over the years, steer my Episcopalian side of the family to good, solid, biblically faithful Anglican and Episcopalian churches. So that is one of the reasons for my fascination and interest in this subject of things Anglican.

And that includes our subject today. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Paul Castellano.

Thanks, Chris.

The pleasure is mine, brother. And tell us about, first of all, the United Episcopal Church of North America. I'm sure that is a denomination that is totally foreign to many, if not most, of our listeners.

You're probably 100 right on that. The first thing I would like your listeners to know, namely within the English Anglicanism, I represent the Reformed. And by Reformed, I not only mean Reformed broadly, but a Calvinistic, historical connection in Anglicanism.

And we have a mentor also who graduated with me from Westminster then went to Calvin Seminary. We have a very...

And if anybody wants to investigate the United Episcopal Church of North America, find out more about it, find out if there is a parish near where you live, unitedepiscopal .org is the website, unitedepiscopal .org.

I also want to give some of my guest's background and training. He has a BA in Philosophy from California State University in Long Beach, an MA in Religion, an Emphasis in Theology and Apologetics from Westminster Theological Seminary in California, an MA in Philosophy, Emphasis in German Idealism and Transcendental Arguments from California State University, Los Angeles, a THM in Ecclesiastical Theology at St. Andrew's Theological College and Seminary, a PhD in Dogmatic Theology, Emphasis in Ecclesiology, ABD, University of Aberdeen.

He has postgraduate studies from California State University in Long Beach and the University of Stroudsburg, France, doctoral studies at Whitfield Theological Seminary and Intellectual History, South African Theological Seminary, Apologetics Critique of Cornelius Van Til, Northwest University and in South Africa, comparative analysis of the thought of Herman Dewey Ward, and I probably mispronounced that, and Cornelius Van Til.

And he has written an article in Modern Reformation Journal in 1993, One People or Two. And as I said, we are discussing his book, his newest book, As It Is in Heaven, a Biblical, Historical and Theological Introduction to the Traditional Church and Her Worship.

High Church Worship and the Regulative Principle

And right off the bat, would you say that this would be a defense of high church worship? And perhaps you could even define that. I know that you describe yourself as a high church Calvinist. So why don't you define what a high churchman is and compare it to low church?

Sure, absolutely. All right. Well, I think because of time restraints,.

We can have definitions of the garments, perhaps later on, if we conduct a follow-up interview, which I have a suspicion we will do, because two hours goes by a lot faster than a lot of people think, especially since there are commercials in the show.

But I do have a question that is so hinged on what you just said. I had a listener question, I should say. I don't typically take listener questions this quickly, but I figured I might as well, since it is directly involved in something that you were saying in describing your belief in high church worship.

This is from, and I usually don't give a full name of a listener, but when it comes to ministers who I highly respect and whose churches I'd like to promote, I do give their full identity. This would be Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington, who is the pastor of Faith Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Fawn Grove, Pennsylvania.

And he wants to know if you follow the regulative principle of worship, and if not, why?

It's an arbitrary definition. I don't see general argumentation. And if caveat, we perform.

And just so our listeners know, who may be unfamiliar with those terms, regulative principle, normative principle, regulative principle of worship would be the belief that everything we do in a worship service, not in all other areas of Christian life and devotion, but in a gathered corporate worship service, everything must be based on an example or command in the New Testament.

And the normative principle would take liberty in the silence whereas the regulative principle advocates take silence in the scripture as a restriction or a prohibition from doing something. The normative principle advocates would take liberty where there is silence.

Would that be an adequate, accurate definition of those two terms? Do you have anything to add to them?

Yeah, conflict.

And if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. If you have a question, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N gmail .com. Please always give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

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There are people who have played a great role or great roles in your life in the forming of this book that are not Anglican or were not Anglican. We have first of all a person who is one of my modern day heroes of the faith who is now in heaven with Christ, John Gerstner, also the late Dr. R .C. Sproul and those who are among the living still, Professor Dr. John M. Frame and Professor Dr. Michael S. Horton.

Dr. Horton has been a guest on this program a number of times and the only ones on that list I have not interviewed are the late Dr. Gerstner and Dr. Frame. But how have these great men of God helped develop your beliefs?

Well, I've read a bit more than that. I did not have time to complete the book, but I've read a bit.

Well, let's see the story of Dr. Gerstner. Would you like that?

Yes, sure.

To try to fight individuals with whom the academy... Excellent book. Hyper-Calvinism. ...speak for two days on that particular book. There's a lot of stories that happened that weekend that I would love to share with you.

Because Dr. Gerstner, if you know anything about him personally, he was quite a card.

He really was.

Yes, I've seen him preach probably five times and I loved every one of his sermons.

One more story and then I'll finish. I apologize, but I just love the man and I love talking about him. During one of the Dr. Gerstner... I know Charles. We have been on...

Well, that actually reminds me of one of my first experiences attending the PCRT, the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology. Dr. Gerstner was one of the speakers and he was comparing Tulip Christianity.

He had developed his own acronym for Arminianism and I think he called it Lilac. I'm not sure.

Yeah, I think you're right.

I remember him at the conclusion of his comparison with James Montgomery Boyce sitting behind him as white as a sheet, looking very nervous and afraid. Dr. Gerstner said, You cannot be a Lilac Christian, actually believe what you say.

You believe and be saved. Let me repeat that. You cannot be a Lilac Christian, actually believe what you say. You believe and be saved. And you could have heard a pin drop in that room as well.

That's him. And for the church on Sunday, we were at a... And Dr. Gerstner came to worship with us and when time for communion, a traditional forward. Now, if you know anything, the idea of going forward to a rail is you better take care of him.

I said, okay, Jim. And I helped him and I just noticed that he walked to the and then walked back down and I walked out to meet him and he looked at me and he took me by the arm and he...

In fact, we could pick up on that story because we have to go to our first break right now.

Please.

And if anybody, as I said before, wants to join us with a question of your own, ChrisArnson at gmail .com is the email address. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. As always, please give us your first name.

Your city and state of residence and your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, we'll be right back with Paul Castellano.

And as it is in heaven, a biblical, historical and theological introduction to the traditional church and her worship right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Please hold off with the mafia jokes. We don't need that right now. But we are discussing his book, As It Is in Heaven, a Biblical, Historical, and Theological Introduction to the Traditional Church and Our Worship, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA. And before we go to your personal testimony of salvation, or a summary thereof, if you have anything further to add about the late Dr. John Gerstner, who's one of my heroes of the faith, and also the late R .C. Sproul, John Frame, and Michael Horton, and how they helped develop your own theology.

Oh, sure.

Oh, I'm 59. I don't know if that still is your opinion.

I gotcha. I gotcha by a few. And R .C.'s influence in my lifestyle...

And Navapress published some of Jerry Bridges' works, the late Jerry Bridges, who was a wonderful guest on this program a number of times.

Yes, that's absolutely correct. R .C. I ended up hearing from R .C. When R .C. would lecture, if you go back and you listen, he's a massive Fulman Catholic, and I said, no, even if it were, I can honestly tell you, I attended college.

My entire academic career, and my entire spiritual journey, was nothing more than an attempt to mimic R .C. And I know that he wouldn't, but he had such an impact on me that when I had the very humbling privilege...

And perhaps even a briefer summary of how John Frame and Michael Horton have framed here, helped to frame your thought and ideology and theology.

Sure. I apologize. My wife always gets... John encountered anything that John has ever written.

Is that a redundant phrase that you just...

Yeah, he just went anywhere. And I am not a Ventillian. Ventillian, and I attended West Philly, but...

Personal Testimony and Theological Influences

We're going to be, in a moment, going through our midway break, which is the longer than normal break. But could you, in the next couple of minutes, summarize for us, before we go into your personal testimony when we return from the break, what are the elements that you believe are required to be present if one were to accurately describe himself as a high churchman?

Oh, they have to be committed to it, without a doubt. They would have to be able to justify everything that they do. Ritual and ceremony are a part of every form of worship. It doesn't matter whether you're in a Calvary Chapel setting.

It makes no difference. Every city element, the core elements, and then to be high church, would be to take that ritual, identify certain elements of the ritual that we perform in, draw them from Scripture, obviously give them a Christological interpretation rather than a Mosaic interpretation, and then take those ritualistic elements, package them in a ceremony that would include an altar and interchangeable terms.

You have to have a table high church. Now, you can go high church and then you can go nosebleed. My presentation of high church would be, you have a communion table, you have a wheel, you have candles, a Q &A if you're talking about excessive icons, if you're talking about issues, then I have concerns.

There would have to be some serious unpacking as to what all that means. And I generally try to shy away from those, to be honest.

Okay, we have to go to our midway break, and it's a longer than normal break in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to air their own public service announcements and other things that localize this program to Lake City, Florida, geographically.

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Those of you who want to advertise your businesses, professional practices, churches, parachurch organizations or special events, please send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line as long as whatever it is you are desiring to promote is compatible with what I believe.

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that is at the very least compatible with what I believe. Always remember, folks, that I don't want my listeners siphoning money away from their regular giving to their own local church where they are a member in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.