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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.
Well, good morning. Good afternoon, whatever time it is, wherever you are. Welcome to the dividing line on a. Let's see today's Tuesday. Yes, indeed. It is a Tuesday. It's Hard to keep track, but it you know, did you know that the year is like more than half over now and it just started and Tomorrow night. We're not gonna get to watch fireworks because it's gonna be raining.
I'm just making a prognostication right now there's a there'd be a lot of clouds out there and I think we're gonna have some thunder gusters coming in and. And we're gonna end up having our hot dogs inside after I had raindrops on the.
I did I did yesterday's in this morning. Oh, yeah yesterday when I was a South Mountain I got not only drizzled on a couple times, but my my car was just was was was messed up, too.
Oh, don't forget. I got those hot dogs with the coupons for 28 cents and I'll bring you some I.
Really think that other people are gonna be providing those. Why did you let I'll cut that out later you you take care of that. Okay, appreciate that in case you've noticed the dividing lines a little short today you're not gonna really know why but let's just say that for a moment rich lost control of this of the soundboard and He is taking steps to could you put a password on the on that thing or something like that?
Would that be the way to handle that? Okay. All right, well Notice that Barry is here today because Barry heard that we we weren't able to play his his masterpiece for the last program and So we have it now and we can play it now except we're not doing that now.
We're not we're not doing Radio Free Damascus today. Sorry. We're gonna we're gonna catch up with Harry Knox actually if that's okay with everybody, but I want to start off. However We will have the phone lines open if you'd like to comment on what's going on in the world eight seven seven seven five three Three four one.
I won't be getting to you very fast, but the phone lines will be open anyways and I'm not doing any Amazingly obscure historical questions from Johnny either. It's just not no, that's not not going there if it actually has something to do with the topic of the program maybe but Johnny's amazingly obscure questions are just gonna have to pass for the day.
I was looking at a article online, you know, if you I have a folder in my bookmarks and It's titled cultural decay and I started a while back if I actually if I actually really use that if I Used what my browsers, you know, it's pretty easy to bookmark stuff and browsers anymore.
Sometimes you can just use a you know a key sequence or something like that that thing is there a maximum size to a folder in a browser I bet of it there is and These days if you are actually looking for evidence of Just the the incredible collapse of common sense common morality common ethics The the fleeing at full speed away from a Christian heritage and a Christian foundation and a Christian worldview.
If you were actually looking for that kind of stuff That'd be a full-time job. And I don't think the day would be long enough for you to actually keep up keep up with such things. I'm looking at a article from the Sacramento Bee and This is from July 2nd, so it's not exactly out of date is it this is yesterday and The title of the article is California bill would allow a child to have more than two parents.
A beaver had June and Ward Ricky had Ozzie and Harriet mom and dad same-sex couples or blended families. California law is clear no more than two legal parents per child. When adults fight over parenthood a judge must decide which to have that right and responsibility, but that could end soon.
State Senator Mark Leno Democrat San Francisco in case you were wondering is Pushing legislation to allow a child to have multiple parents see folks we've been saying for a long time by the way. Let me just remind everybody Thursday Thursday dr. Michael Brown joins me on the program at 2 p .m.
2 p .m. Our time 5 p .m. Eastern Time. We're gonna go 2 to 3 with dr. Brown and then we'll do a regular dividing line afterwards. So that's that's Thursday and He's be talking about his new book The real kosher Jesus, who knows maybe we can talk him into staying over for a few minutes to talk about everything that's going on in the Cultural decline area as well, which we're talking about right now.
But we've been telling you for a long time That those Who are seeking to completely? disengage the moral and ethical essence of.
Of.
Western culture from its Christian foundation. Will not stop. Give them an inch and they'll take a yard is an old is an old saying. But the reality is give them an inch and they will take over everything.
They do not simply want to extend Marriage rights to a limited group. Don't don't don't buy that lie. It's a lie. That's not what they want. Look at every place where this has happened once they get well.
We just we just want to have marriage for just loving monogamous couples. No, they don't it's a lie folks. It is an absolute lie. That's not what they want once they've got that they continue on. It's not just a slippery slope.
It's a cliff. Slippery slopes at least have a have a slope to them. You know what I mean? I Mean one of my most terrifying terrifying images in my mind Was a few years ago in the Tour de France which is going on right now and everybody in this audience knows I'm a wild-eyed nutcase cyclist and.
I.
Invest a lot of energy in that and I was watching the Tour de France couple years ago, and there was this young guy. It was a new guy I've forgotten what his name was. But he had beaten everybody at the top of a certain climb and and then you have to go down these things.
And I go. I love going up mountains, I'm not quite as hot about going down them. I've gotten better at it. I've really had to push myself. But you know some of these Roads they go down. Oh my and This kid and he was a kid like 22 23 years old.
He's flying down this mountain and he misses a turn and He goes off side of the road and he's he. He was smart enough to get his get off the clips get off his bike and He's spread eagle in the dirt sliding down this incredible slope until he stops the bike just keeps on going.
I don't know how far down it was and It was you know. I don't know how long it was till people get there. And I mean literally he's trying to climb back up, but people are throwing ropes down to him, and you know that's Kind of thing that scares me to death if it were to happen to me really wouldn't.
Well at least there was a slope there. It wasn't a cliff. It was a slope so he was able to you know grab on to something and and save himself.
But.
There's no slope here culturally it's a cliff and When you jump off of it there ain't no stopping. These folks do not want. There is such a tiny percentage of the homosexual community that is made up of monogamous individuals.
Tiny percentage. The vast majority have no desire for monogamous relationships the whole reason they're doing what they're doing is because they like having sex with lots and lots and lots and lots of people and The studies have proven that the normal male homosexual has Hundreds of sexual partners in his life hundreds of them some thousands.
Okay, this is this is the lifestyle. This is what it is. They don't they don't want to take an inch. They want everything they want to completely redefine marriage so that your marriage is No longer the normative remember.
I've read the the thing about from the Canadian last week. You know. Denormalizing heterosexuality. Well That's these folks want. That's what that's what their goals are and that's what they're accomplishing in every culture where they have been allowed to.
Overthrow the moral and ethical reality of how we've been made by God. So state senator Mark Leno is pushing legislation to allow a child to have multiple parents. This the bill brings California into the 21st century because see if you don't if you're not into stuff.
You're not in the 21st century. So you're just you're behind. You don't want to be on the wrong side of history boy. The bill brings California in the 21st century recognizing that there are more than Ozzie and Harriet families out there.
I was terrible to have Ozzie and Harriet families wasn't. Stability and of don't have that. The San Francisco Democrats said and that's not a newspaper. That's Mark Leno. Surrogate births same-sex parenthood and assisted reproduction are changing society by creating new possibilities for non-traditional households and relationships.
The possibility that that is a bad thing is not mentioned. Benjamin Lopez legislative analyst for the traditional values coalition Blasted Lino's bill as a new attempt to revamp redefine and muddy the waters of family structure.
By a leader in the drive to legalize gay marriage. It comes as no surprise that he would try to say that a child has more than two parents. That's absurd said Lopez whose group calls itself a leading voice for Bible based values.
Under Lino's bill if more if three or more people who acted as parents. Could not agree on custody visitation and child support. A judge could split those things up among them. Have you have y 'all noticed the absolute surrender of all common sense?
Liberty and everything else to the judiciary. A.
Judge.
Gets to determine these things. And What happens when we. What happens? I wonder when we we don't have righteous judges. Hmm.
SB.
1476 is not meant to expand the definition of who can qualify as a parent. Only to eliminate the limit of two per child. Isn't it amazing what happens when simple common-sense and sanity is lost in a society.
SB 1476 is not meant to expand the definition of who can qualify as a parent only to eliminate the limit of two per child. Under current law a parent can be a man who signs a voluntary declaration of paternity for example.
It can also be a man who is married and living with the child's mother or who took a baby into his home And represented the infant as his own. Lino's bill which has passed the Senate. Well, that's California.
What do you expect? I mean, I mean Sanity Was deported from California, which is the only thing that can be deported from California a long time ago. Lino's bill which has passed the Senate is now in the assembly would apply equally to men or women and to straight or gay couples and to eventually to pedophiles and it's not in there, but that will happen as well.
Examples of pre-parent relationships that could be affected by SB 1476 include a family in which a man began dating a woman while she was pregnant then raised that child with her for seven years. The youth.
The youth also had a parental relationship with the biological father a Same-sex couple who asked a close male friend to help them conceive. Then decide that all three would raise the child. Or a divorce in which a woman and her second husband are the legal parents of A child but the biological father maintained close ties as well.
SB 14. Now, this is this is where it's really. Wow. SB 1476 stemmed from an appellate court case last year involving a child's biological mother her same-sex partner and a man who had an affair with the biological mother and Impregnated her while she was separated temporarily from her female lover.
So that's where I came from. That's where I came from. I. What can you say. I Mean, yes, I see you out there. So yeah, I'm still hung up on the we really need to we really need to have some parameters for the.
Participation in the studio audience. I'm still hung up on the a man who takes a child into his home and represents it as his own. I don't know. I mean that provision is so wide open. I could go down the street kidnap a child and.
I don't know. Ah, I I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It is just a wonderful example of the the utter utter collapse of simple morality in a nation that has turned its back on God and God says you you want you want moral confusion?
Um.
Yes, I want to channel just just stated the really really obvious someone's hand farshad the.
The.
Really really really obvious statement of the day award Anderson Cooper of CNN also just came out yesterday admitted. He is gay as If anyone didn't know that talk about a complete non-news story. It's like really Wow, did my RSS feed get stuck in in 2006?
Yeah, sometimes, you know a website will all of a sudden just throw up a bunch of really old articles from long ago because they change over their system or something like that and it floods your RSS feeds as I was wondering if That's what if that was what yes Farshad gets the captain obvious award For the day anyways, but um, oh, yeah little golf clap there amazing stuff amazing stuff.
Okay, anyhow Let's let's get back to the Harry Knox stuff. We have been Haven't gotten to this for a while and that's unfortunate. We've been dealing with a lot of other things and If you're not familiar with this we have been reviewing a debate between Michael Brown who will be my guest on Thursday and Mr. Harry Knox who at the at the time well, he not now he's actually been appointed to a position by the president and he's quite high up in the Gay lesbian bisexual transgendered queer LGBTQ, whatever and there that eventually would be 12 letters long Movement and at the time was with the human rights campaign.
Which is not about human rights, it's about homosexuality and But that is part and parcel of this movement is to hijack civil rights and try to apply them to how you have sex and To the perversion of human sexuality as if that's somehow the same thing and they're doing a debate and we are listening to Harry Knox's presentation and We had started this I don't know how long ago I apologize for Bouncing around other things, but I think that's some of the charm of the program is that we are able to you know Whatever is going on.
We can we can deal with it as we see fit. So let's dive back into what Harry Knox was saying. I backed up about 10 -15 seconds so we can get a little bit of a.
Running. Start here. As to where we last were the city is called Gibeah. Same scenario. Strangers people we don't understand. People not like us people not from around here. You might call them immigrants.
Are taken in by the householder and the men of the city show up demanding that they be turned over to them. The householder refuses but does precisely what lot had done in the same situation. He offers his daughter to the men instead.
Women. Are your hands shaking yet? Unlike the men of Sodom the men of Gibeah accept the householders daughter and they rape her until she dies. They throw her dead body up on the steps and the householder.
Hard to call him a father. Cuts her up in 12 pieces and mails one piece to each of the 12 tribes of Israel. The tribes are so incensed at this horrible act of injustice. Hard to just call it inhospitality.
That they dispatched 12 armies to wipe Gibeah off the map. The sin of Sodom is not homosexuality and The sin of Gibeah is not heterosexuality. Their sin was the same.
Now this is this is one of these standard arguments and it's one of the better arguments at least. It can be presented, you know when you listen to a presentation like this, even though we recognize the tremendous bias that is brought to this by Harry Knox and and we're gonna especially hear that once Michael Brown has the opportunity of bringing a biblical rebuttal even though it's a very brief biblical rebuttal.
That Harry Knox just collapses he just Abandons even the pretense of making a biblical argument but what they do is they start off with biblical arguments and Then if the person they're talking to proves themselves to be biblically illiterate, which unfortunately is what a lot of people they encounter does.
Then You know if they if they aren't biblically if they are biblically illiterate then they can just let that stand and it sounds like they Have the the stronger case from the Bible if the other person knows they're talking about demonstrates the many errors in their argumentation.
Then what happens here? It will happen there and that is well, we don't we don't really want to you know. Derive our our our beliefs from the Bible. I mean, it's it's sort of an old document, you know.
I mean we can still honor it in some ways. But we don't really want to believe what it says and and you just throw the Bible under the bus. Which is what's gonna happen here in a little while but this is one of the better arguments is.
You you draw a parallel. You ignore The differences you you ignore. Remember when we went through the Matthew Vines thing. We saw how much of the Sodom and Gomorrah story he skipped. Because it doesn't fit into his paradigm and we saw Harry Knox do the same thing.
We saw the brevity of the treatment of The of the text so that you can create parallels in the minds of your listeners because what can you what can you count on? It's something that unfortunately a lot of preachers count on the ignorance of the audience.
I mean what an amazing thing when your presentation is is purposefully designed to play off of The ignorance of your audience, but when it comes to the text of the Old Testament, let's face it. How many ministers do you know who really know the Old Testament?
I mean I've taught Hebrew, but I would there is so much more work that I need to do. Especially in the minor prophets and in historical backgrounds. I mean you could you could spend your entire life. You really could and it should be something many of us have a much deeper desire to do.
Isn't it sad that the good books on things like biblical backgrounds things like that are the are the books that sell the least. I mean the only the only reason any of those books ever get published is Because there are still people in Bible colleges that use them as a textbook.
That's that's just it. I mean we should be people who voraciously devour the good and recognize the bad and And Know the word very very well. But that's not a description of the large portion of the Christian Church.
And if you're the exception praise God for you help the rest of us. But that's how you can get away with this that's how you can ignore the differences. Play up the similarities and there are direct similarities.
I mean, it's not like this type of thing doesn't sadly happen. Every day in our modern world, especially in places like Africa where there's tremendous strife and and Ethnic cleansing and and this type of stuff unfortunately happens a lot.
You then create the parallel and say well since the issue wasn't heterosexuality.
In.
The one then it wasn't homosexuality in the other and for a lot of folks I go wow never seen that before you must be right Because see when someone offers an insight you've never seen before you automatically assume that it's correct because that's playing on your ignorance and Also the fact that a lot of us don't think Critically when arguments are presented to us Certainly nobody in in Douglas Wilson's audience at the University of Indiana Would be would be considered to be a critical thought studies major in the behavior that they that we saw in the last time that we looked at so that's how you get away with it and Now what's the fundamental art problem the argument there?
It makes heterosexuality and Homosexuality equal things so that the abuse of Heterosexuality in rape becomes the issue and not the toeva the abomination of the homosexuality in The situation in Sodom and Gomorrah, and so that's how you get around it.
That's that's that's one of you know There's there's three or four different methods used by people to try to get around the Sodom Gomorrah story But primarily it is it's not about homosexuality. It's about gang rape.
It's about Inhospitability, it's something like that. That's the essence of the argumentation and The fact that These people are wiped out and the fact that there is there's armed conflict and that these are this is inter clan warfare and all The rest that stuff which is not a part of The issue in Sodom or remember he read into the text in Sodom.
He tried to set this up By creating parallels that were not there remember we were when we heard it. We're like where'd he get that what do you mean? What do you mean? These are like enemy agents or people sneaking in and all the rest that it that's just not there but he asked to insert it to to strengthen his argument in trying to create the parallel that actually isn't there and to get around the fact that part and parcel of What is evil in?
The identification of lot is the fact that Homosexuality is right up front. It is right there on.
Surface of the text. And. That's you know, this is how you do it. And do you see why this works for most people. Why. Because most people don't have a clue what the Bible teaches. And. As long as you're willing to play on the ignorance of your audience.
That's that's how good despots work is. You play on the ignorance your audience and get them to believe whatever you have to say.
Gross mistreatment of the stranger the person not known or understood and the horrid use of rape as an act of war. These were hate crimes. Crimes committed not just against the immediate victims. But perpetrated in order to send a message to everyone remotely like the victims.
You are not welcome. You are not welcome. You are not welcome.
Neither story actually has that as it's where in anywhere in Genesis 18 and 19. Do you get the idea that what Sodom and Gomorrah was saying to everybody around them? You are not welcome. They would love to have some more people to engage in their sex parties.
Come on in as long as you're willing to as long as you're willing to do what we do. Bring your flocks in bring your hey great. Not this you are not welcome you are not welcome stuff. This is this is called is a Jesus.
It's reading into the text the very material that is a.
Part of your argument, but is not a part of the text itself and for these sins Sodom and Gibeah were removed from the earth but not from our history. I Used to read Genesis 19 and judges 19 and 20 and think they were good stories, but they didn't apply to me.
But then I saw the pictures from Abu Ghraib prison. Men stripped naked and stacked on top of each other dog collars and leashes hanging from their necks and a soldier one of my neighbors from America grinning stupidly beside them.
And my hand started to shake. I dropped back to Leviticus and wrestled the Holiness Code for a blessing.
Well, there's there's a transition there. So what you do. And again these these these folks.
Are.
Polished prepared talented speakers who know how to Muddle the minds of post-modern Americans who have been brought up over the past 20 years in the educational system United States and only told what to think not how to think and So there let's face it.
Our educational system Produces people who have the attention span of a five-year-old. Is that not true? I mean we know historically That sermons in the Puritan days were hours long. They were hours long.
Nobody does that today and None of us could survive it. We do not we are so Accustomed to being entertained to having what is coming into our senses changed and altered. I've noticed this with with my own kids.
They're uncomfortable with silence. They're uncomfortable silence because they've always had earbuds iPods music going going going silence is bothersome it's it's it's distracting in fact and. So you've got people and You've you've got a culture.
Where I mean people are getting their news from Jon Stewart now really. Even getting your news from well Katie Couric's not doing this anymore. Is she I don't even know who's doing that. Okay, does anybody watch that kind of stuff anymore?
I don't. I certainly don't that used to be the. The way you got your news, but even then oh I've covered the entire world in half an hour. I'm good. Well, no, you got one perspective. You got one very surface level slice there and the idea of extended thought.
Contemplation meditation that kind of stuff. Yeah. No. So what you do is you learn how to manipulate people? By your words. By what you say what you don't say and how you say it and If you know that you are around people and that the people in your audience have certain fundamental incapacities of thought.
You utilize their weaknesses against them. To get them to think the way you want them to think and that is what you have in politics and Here you have it as a fundamental perversion of the Word of God as well.
My son just tweeted me he heard what I said. Yeah, he's wondering if he needs to take his headphones off because he's looking at listening to me right now. Well if I were singing then yes, but I'm not and so.
But hey look I think he'd have to admit that I'm right that there has well it would be difficult for him to compare. But my generation just was just starting to do we were just starting to have the technology to be able remember the old Walkmans.
Remember them, you know, I mean cassette tapes. Back when I was really young cassette tapes had a very short lifespan remember those things because they would get eaten. I'll remember and so I Was really in my early teens when the Walkmans started coming out and even then you know.
Yeah, you knew you put that cassette in there. It was it was eventually gonna eat that thing and. So, you know things have changed a lot we just did not have stuff coming at us constantly. The way that the young the next generation does and it has changed the way That people think and it has changed the way that people communicate.
It's changed our language, you know, there's a bunch of folks in our chat channel. They think I don't know this. But I really do. They play a game Online called Lex Ulus. Lex Ulus evidently we've got some complete Freaks in channel as Far as their ability.
Well, we have one. We have one bot in channel named turrets and fan who we don't actually think is a human being is but is a program. What's that? You are turrets and fan. Oh and Sir Brass is turrets and fans.
Okay. All right. Anyway. And I guess this is a it's a electronic version of Scrabble and It requires a very Massive Vocabulary, I mean you really have to know. See turrets and fan weeps little oil tears.
Well, if you're a bot, you're not gonna you're not gonna weep tears. It'd be digital tears. But anyway.
And.
They you know, I just got tired of hearing back to you. I got 34 points for that the word blah blah blah. You know, so I said no more of that. So now they've now they're pretending that they're what they're reading the early church fathers.
And they'll say things like I just read Athanasius for 39 chapters and stuff like that or bird-watching I just saw 37 birds back to you, you know this kind of stuff and they think I don't know what they're doing.
But I actually but I know they're not listening right now. So that's why I'm telling you all that actually know about this I'm surprised at that game. Now. These guys are weird. I mean turrets and phantom you Tato together.
I mean, they're just I mean they just have these massive pulsing brains when it comes to that kind of stuff.
I'm sort of surprised these games are popular because. That have you. Has anyone else noticed?
The degradation of our language in written form in our day. Just the degradation of language. People don't people don't want to learn new vocabulary words and I keep yeah words with friends. Yes, and I keep going back to 1984.
If you have not read 1984, I'm telling you it's not a Christian book. But you need to read 1984. You really really do because One of the I'm rereading it again. I mean, I read it back in high school, but I'm actually reading.
I'm not listening to it I'm actually making my eyes go back and forth over words. Yes, it's on a screen because I've got on my on my Kindle but One of the the section I'm at right now is this is this conversation?
Between the the primary character and this guy who works on newspeak. Which is the language that the ruling party uses to basically control people. They control the language and what they're doing is they are destroying words and He's talking and this guy is talking about the beauty of destroying words.
Why should you have two words good and evil when good and ungood works just as well. And you don't need to have all these different synonyms and antonyms and and ways of expressing Nuances and stuff like that, you know the government needs to control all this because that that way they can promote their perspective see and It's happening.
It is happening all around us. Yes. I know I got off on a tangent I'm sorry, but I observe these things and I am just amazed at How people just seem to hate as long as I've got my DVR and my cable and my pod and my music Do with me as you will.
I Don't need to worry about my liberties. I don't care if you're actually fundamentally telling me what to think and how to act. I Just want to throw myself into the arms of Big Brother take care of me from the womb to the tomb and You know you finally get enough people in a in a culture.
They want that and that's what you're gonna get.
It's dehumanizing and it's anti-christian. But that's the way. That it is. Anyways, I'm not really sure how I got there. But my comment my cultural commentary for the day.
Sometimes it's hard to take the Holiness Code of Leviticus 18 and 19.
Seriously and we can tell mr. Knox that you do not take it seriously at all.
Are you gonna give up eating shrimp and pork wearing wool coats with cotton pants and playing football in order to prove? You're a good person.
Now how many times I mean we've. I know we've dealt with this a lot recently and Harry Knox sounds like an intelligent person and that means I am convinced that Harry Knox well knows.
That that.
Argumentation is.
Thoroughly.
Completely and fully meant only to convince the ignorant and That it has no meaningful biblical value at all it is a fundamentally Insulting arguments insulting to the intellect. It's insulting to the Bible.
It's insulting to the Holiness Code. But let me ask you a question. Let me ask a question and this is only for people who saw this but and a lot of people did. In fact, I will ask the Turretin fan bot in channel To tell me he can look this up fairly quickly.
How many views? My Dan Savage response has had so far because I don't know about a month and a half two months ago. Maybe a I don't know April May somewhere around there. Remember when the Dan Savage stuff blew up.
I did a response to Dan Savage on YouTube and I just don't have time to look on YouTube real quickly to find out what it's it's it's hits are but. One of the things that I did is something that I had and maybe I'm.
Maybe I'm wrong about this. Maybe I just haven't Done the kind of looking around that I need to do. But what it struck me that I needed to do in that response Was do something. I don't see other people doing with regularity.
Monty has beaten Turretin fan to the to the punch there and says right at 11 ,000 views. So If you're listening to this and you're one of the 11 ,000 and you've seen this maybe you can think back to it.
What I did is I I just opened up my browser. I actually opened up Accordance and I just looked at the text and I went through because remember he used profanity to describe it as as being worthless garbage and so I went through and I looked at what's actually there now all you hear from these guys is about shellfish and The fact you're not to mix cloth.
Which by the way all this as we've already explained so many times before is the purity code for the people of Israel. It's to set them apart from the people around them oneness of God doing these things as evidence of their Dedication to God etc. Etc.
And that these laws some of which are moral in character. Some of which are ceremonial in character. You know, there's there's so much more depth to them than the vast majority of Christians recognized let alone Individuals like Harry Knox are just using this as a as a means of promoting is his agenda with other people.
What I did is that as I went through and I looked at all of the all the stuff They don't want to talk about you know, like honoring the elderly. Standing in their presence showing them respect. Being of assistance to them.
You know that thing about loving your neighbor as yourself, you know. Actually, you know Jesus quoted a lot from the Holiness Code. They don't generally want to tell you that but but he actually did and and he saw.
That love of neighbor as yourself is fulfillment of so many of these things. But he we don't want to talk about Jesus quoting stuff like that because we know G is never saying about homosexuality, right?
Right, and There's just so much, you know, I mean, it's it's obvious that this is also where you have the prohibitions on bestiality and Incest and rape but you also have the positive exhortation to You know the positive treatment of the of the of the alien and you'd think what with what he just got done talking about.
You know immigrants and stuff like that he'd want to Bring that out, but that doesn't really fit his agenda either. So he doesn't do that. But I went through and there is just so much Positive That everyone would recognize it.
Well at least now but that could change in the near future, but So many things that people would recognize as positive moral values and they're right there. But all you ever hear about is what? All you ever hear about is mixed cloth and.
Pigskin.
And You know very sowing various kinds of seed in your in your field or things like that. That's all you hear about and it makes it hard for me to really respect people that make this kind of argumentation.
Because one of two things is true either like Harry Knox and they know this is bogus and they know it's unfair and they know It's untrue but they repeat it anyways because they have a broader agenda and they can trust that the majority of people they want to reach or just not going to be intelligent enough as far as their their training goes.
Okay, let's say educated enough not intelligent enough intelligence and education not the same thing. Educated enough to catch him. That's one group then you have the other group and we saw them last time when we listened to what happened the University of Indiana and They're the ones that repeat What these guys say and they think it's good.
They've never checked it out but they repeat it they go on with it and That's how it works. So we're gonna continue on with this. I've got one phone call. We'll get to Kyle. It's a completely different topic.
So I'll leave a few minutes toward the end of the program to catch that and We'll go on on from there boy get a little bit more of Harry Knox in because I think I've only gotten let me see I've gotten less than three minutes.
That's not gonna get us very far very quickly.
All those things are on the list of prescriptions that includes me lying with a man as with a woman.
Are they the same? Commandment. Are they on the same level. Does the Bible as a whole treat that in the same way? No, so what has just been presented as an argument is That every element of the Holiness Code is identical to every other element.
Therefore on a moral scale the prohibition against homosexuality is No different than the prohibition against the mixture of cloth. Now is that really what's being communicated by the Holiness Code? Well, of course not but that's what he has to try to get people to believe so that you can say well If the one isn't binding then the other isn't as well.
But the problem is does he then follow through with that and likewise say that the prohibition against bestiality? Incest.
Rape.
All of which are right there Are likewise no more morally binding irrelevant than the prohibition against mixing cloth. That's that's the question and That's what's just been communicated if you do not think carefully about what's being said.
There are a lot of people who want me to live up to the Holiness Code and I understand why. I Understand the desire to live as a reflection of the love of God in a world that wallows in the dark misery of sin.
I really do.
I'd really like to know how Harry Knox defines sin. I think we'll get a much better idea in the future as we especially hear the interaction as.
To what sin might be. I hear with power and resonance the teachers command to the Israelites Wandering in the desert to set themselves apart from the idol worshippers of the land to which they were going.
To isn't that unloving. I Mean seriously, I mean what what if what if the idol worshippers say that God made me this way. He made me desirous. I can't just worship one God. I have so much love in me. I Have so much love in me.
I have to love many gods. That's just the way he made me. And you're you're suppressing my rights and you're making me unhappy. And I know some polytheists who have committed suicide. Because your terrible horrible Bible said they're only supposed to worship one God.
You should stop preaching that. You say that's ridiculous. Yeah, that's also why I say the vast majority of homosexual argumentation is ridiculous as well. Because it's the same thing. How is that different?
How is that different? Well, no one's arguing that you're me. Well, never mind. It isn't different.
That's the whole point set themselves apart by not wearing the kinds of clothes the Canaanites wore by not eating the local foods. Or touching the dead skins of the unclean pigs that must have seemed nasty abominable to sheep herders.
And I surely understand a rule against copulating with homeless boys taken in as temple prostitutes by the priests. Servicing the Canaanite idols. Now what you just heard.
Was a complete eisegesis. You've just you've just taken an entire Range of meaning and You've crammed it into Leviticus and said it's only about this. Now you did did you hear anything? Maybe I maybe I was distracted by Twitter or something but I I must have missed the Lengthy discussion of the original languages and context and everything that that would have Substantiated that.
But I don't think I missed that. At least I. I don't I don't I don't think I had time to miss that. I sometimes do zone out for a while. But I don't seem to have missed that. But what you've just heard is you throw out something plausible.
You throw out something people have Basically, no way of analyzing because you have not even attempted to give an argument for it you you throw out a conclusion as An argument and then you never substantiate now obviously if the audience were to be doing what an audience should be doing and That is analyzing what's being said for content consistency things like that.
Well, then he's gonna be pretty much disqualified as far as the debate is concerned. But that's not what audiences are doing. They're watching body language facial expressions or color ties wearing and They're looking for Emotive quality and they're not actually examining anyway.
The argumentation is being presented to them.
Good children of Abraham that we are we wouldn't want to do the things that might cause us to be mistaken. For those who recognize any God other than the one true God.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I mean, I don't see how as given the the perspective that he is going to enunciate of scripture and Human freedom and what love is and all this is stuff. He doesn't derive this from scripture so wouldn't it be hateful and unloving to be children of Abraham and to limit the expression of Of worship to just just God.
What about the Buddhists. What about the Hindus. Harry. Isn't that equally acceptable to God. Something tells me he thinks it is. But for some reason he doesn't want to be direct and say yeah this all of this stuff all this stuff this monotheism stuff.
This worshiping God stuff. It's all wrong. It's all suppressing of people's rights. I.
Get that. What I don't get is what any of that has to do with my love for my partner.
Well, Harry, let me explain it to you because it's it's really pretty much straightforward. It's not overly difficult to grasp this. What it has to do With you and your same-sex partner. Is that the text says a Man shall not lie with a man as he lies with a woman.
It is an abomination. Okay, and that's what you're doing and you might say but that's only a part of What we do and that's fine. But it is a very important part of what you do and in fact, it is definitional of what you do and Therefore it's directly relevant to what you do and.
Harry.
Tell me anybody in Jewish history Through the time of Jesus who disagreed anybody. But was there anybody in Jesus's day Harry that believes what you believe or were they just not enlightened enough. Did Jesus believe what you believe?
I? Mean you'd have to say he did. But it's funny. He never never actually said anything like that. In fact, he said just just the opposite. So if what you want to really tell us is that's what the Holiness Code is about.
And if you want to tell us that you know that nasty section Leviticus 18 Those those nasty words in Leviticus 2013 if a man lies the male as with a woman both of them have committed abomination. They should really put put to death their blood is upon them.
That's not just about Temple prostitutes that's not about little children. That's clearly man with man. That's exactly what Paul's representing in Romans chapter 1 when he talks about two men. Burning in lust toward one another that's what he's talking about.
So That that's that's the connection. I think it's a pretty obvious connection it's a direct connection. Well, we've had one person on hold for quite some time. All the way up in another land in a land lacking many of our freedoms.
I'm not sure that I want to go there or I'd end up in the Monty Gulag Mountie Gulag. Yes, Monty Monty Monty man a gulag run by Mounties. Let's uh, let's talk with Kyle up in Canada. Hi Kyle. Hey, dr. White.
Thanks for taking my call.
And and by the way, if you do show up, I would gladly attend Whatever seminar that would be so you're welcome to come up to Saskatchewan anytime.
Yeah, but all you Canadians say that but but then but then your your leaders do weird things like, you know.
This.
Free speech thing is starting to get really iffy up there. So, you know, yeah, we'll see anyways.
Anyway, I just have a question here. And by the way, I'm a Christian except the doctrines of grace and and I guess I've never really contemplated the topic of federal headship and I think possibly up for now.
Maybe I've had sort of a Pelagian view of it I don't know but anyway, I guess my representative in well that does seem to be the belief in.
Yeah the issue today Pelagius certainly held that while men sin they sin because they're they're given an example of sin and that each man is a new Adam and it is his environment that leads him to sin not a a connection to Adam or a degradation or fallenness of his essential nature and so there is a There's a fundamental denial of that element of the relationship that we would have with with Adam within Pelagius's Theology which of course is opposed by by Augustine and all this goes back.
Especially I mean the classicus locus is Romans chapter 5 and The the fact that what you have in Romans chapter 5 or two humanities you have one humanity in Adam Which in which is exhaustive. And then you have the humanity in Christ, which is adoptive that is a believer starts off in in Adam and then by grace is joined to Christ so that you can only receive from your federal head what he can provide to you.
Adam can only provide you with a fallen nature and With death because of his failure and his fallenness whereas Christ and all those in Christ Receive from him what they can receive from him, which is obedience righteousness life because of the one act.
It's not it is not a one-to-one correspondence in the sense that Romans 5 15 says but the free gift is not like the Transgression for if by the transgression of the one the many died Much more to the grace of God and the gift of the grace of the one man Jesus Christ abound to the many so.
Yeah, what I have in Christ is greater Than what I would have had an Adam had he not fallen. But the representation is there and I would say that We are born as sinners Because of a relationship to Adam which is why death Includes those who have not yet sinned in the sense of a volitional choice Because of their relationship to Adam and the eternal death well, when you say eternal death now, you're raising the issue of what is the what is the the end of.
Infants who die in infancy or something like that. I don't want to go that route per se.
I guess the issue that I'm kind of struggling with here is and tell me if this is a poor analogy but the analogy would be somewhat like. Suppose a guy goes out and robs a bank and then you know the judge he stands before a judge and he says well.
Not only are you guilty, but you know, your children are guilty as well. And we would say well. That's a perversion of justice, right? We should hold You know so-and-so accountable for his actions. Well, I guess in one sense I I have a hard time with it because naturally I see an objection because I'm like well now wait a minute.
We we inherited a sinful nature from Adam. It's like in essence. We're we're in prison to a nature That we that we didn't choose and then we are then therefore judged based on that nature.
And so that well, that's kind of what I'm struggling with. Yeah. Well, and that's a that's a common objection. But it's it's it's the same objection that therefore would mean that you could not possibly Accept what God has done in Christ either because by one act of obedience.
Yeah, many were made righteous. So the the entirety of union with Christ and forgiveness of sin Imputation of righteousness. It's all done on a federal level as well that the federal headship model. And yeah, so if you're gonna reject the one you have to reject the other which a lot of people do.
Yeah, I'm not rejecting it. I'm just trying to come to grips with it, right?
Well, I understand but but see the analogy that you use was based upon American law and there's a there's a direct analogy To the the issue that you raised and that was the sin of Achan when the people of Israel are going into land Achan Breaks God's law.
He does so purposefully He he takes from that which is not supposed to be taken and what was the punishment that was specifically meted out? It wasn't just Achan. It was Achan and his family and his doggies and his kitties.
Yeah. Well, okay I'm using the New Living translation at that point, but you get you get the idea and so there is a picture in in More than one picture in the Old Testament of this this federal Concept and really the question is does God have the right to deal with?
Fallen sinners as he sees fit and I would say that once the fall has taken place Anything beyond just utter destruction immediately upon birth Is totally up to him. He gets to do that. Yeah, because he could be perfectly just do otherwise the analogy you used Assumes a state of innocence which can't be imported into this because we're talking about mankind's relationship to God and the fallenness of Mankind so it is something that is difficult.
I think for some Western thinkers, especially American thing. There's yeah to grasp, but it's clearly the way that God has dealt with his people, but but ultimately though innocent.
In iniquity. Like like David said right we're brought in iniquity and so we're even before we commit any any moral actions. In essence, we're guilty, right? So we're yes.
Fallen sons and daughters of Adam. Yes, and we have and we have a not only are we guilty but we are reprehensible before God and could be could be punished by him and We love that in the sense that you've never had to teach a child how to lie.
But you do have to teach child how to do what's right. And so that's our nature and Unless by grace see this is this is if it was anything else Then you could get away with arguing that you know. The reason that I am in the presence of God is because I'm better than somebody else.
But when you really understand this there is only one possible way of salvation and it's grace completely and totally there's there's no way We can intrude ourselves in upon the glory of God in salvation.
And I think one of the real real things is what this requires us to recognize is in defining the gospel. We have to define it on the basis of the fact. This is God's self-act of glorification and we just get to be in on it and the vast majority of Christians view the gospel as first and foremost about us and At that being there by a means of judging God and his goodness and that's yeah two very different ways looking at it.
I guess sort of keep you strong on the line there, but I Guess the analogy well, I guess I don't know I want to use another analogy per se, but It's like God Punishes Sinners not not necessarily because of their sin.
I mean their sin is Is I guess imputed to them from from Adam's. Isn't that I don't know if that's accurate or not.
Well, the the sin of the sin of Adam means that the only nature we can have is that which is despoiled in God's sight. Yeah, and so yes, we are we are fallen in him just as we are are justified in Christ.
And and so that is why there is death and and that is why we experience what we experience. But keep one thing in mind. Anybody who would object to that is saying I would have done better than Adam did.
And I don't think that anyone could ever make that argument. No, and yet that is part of the fundamental objection that people don't want to don't want to enunciate that. But part of the assertion is that's not fair because I would have done better than Adam did.
Yeah.
My my again my my question it's still kind of. With him, you know, I don't know if I really got it out properly, but I Guess what you could how you could summarize that is.
God.
Through his own purposes for his own good pleasure has has chosen to demonstrate his his justice by punishing you know, you know people for their sinful nature and again, it's it's almost like you know you you plant an orchard of apple trees and.
You know apple trees produce apples because that's what apple trees do. It's according to their nature and so sinners Produce sin and that's according to their nature. But yet we see, you know, it's like God's chopping down the apple tree for producing apples.
And that's just the analogy that's in my brain. I just keep seeing this if yes, we love our sin. Yes, we commit these sinful acts, but those all come from our nature. Well, let's just choose our nature.
Well, there's a couple things keep keep in mind and about a year ago I addressed a An email that was sent to me by someone that really sort of was touching on this same issue and.
Spent I forgotten how was it four and a half? I Don't remember how many hours I spent going through this. But if you go back to the archives, I think it was July of last year July or August of last year.
You might might find some even even more in-depth discussion of a lot of this stuff at that point but the thing to remember is.
That.
God would be just given the fact that Through our relationship to Adam He holds us accountable. Now do any of us? Transcend the example given to us by Adam. It's not that God is standing there with a gun saying do bad things we come into this world and Part of the part of the reason that we don't get this is because we don't see What the law was pointing to when it talks about pure and impure things holiness and unholiness.
Let's face it. Most of us just try to survive reading through Leviticus. We don't really ponder it. We don't spend much time in it. And when you actually give it some thought what you're seeing is that which is holy and that which is unholy that which is set aside for God's purposes that which is not.
That the offerings are an aroma to cover up the stench of sin the seriousness of the breach between God and the creation the insanity of sin the fact that Creatures would actually rebel against their creator.
The only just thing that God could do would be to wipe them out. But he doesn't he finds ways of dealing with them. He extends grace he extends mercy not because they are worthy of it, but because this provides him the means of Illustrating and demonstrating the full range of his attributes not just his holiness and his wrath and his power.
But also his love and his mercy and his grace. But all of this goes back to the idea that we are born in such a way that we are not Neutral and we are not good. We are are Fitting objects of the wrath of God.
We are there and we love it. We don't go. Oh, I wish I wasn't this way. We love it. We think that's wonderful. And in fact, you look around our society today and you get the idea once God removes his hand of restraint.
That's what man's really all about and there he is and and he knows what God wants him to do and says Ain't going there. I'm doing it my own way and Yet through the midst of all that you have this extension of grace.
That changes hearts and minds and all of it emphasizes just how radical that work actually is. And if it was any other way, I don't think that that radical nature would be there. And so when you say well But it just seems like we're doing what's natural for us to do.
Because of the choice that Adam made now God I suppose could have just made everybody a new Adam. But everyone would have fallen in the same way.
So.
What what is what is gained or lost? I mean, where where is the the real issue other than yeah, but from an American perspective He should have to do that with every person over and over and over again rather than.
Because that would but what would what would be the natural result of that if if he did that how could salvation take place? Because Christ would have to die individually for each person over and over and over again.
You could not if you reject the fed federal headship in the one you can't have the federal headship in the other. And so what it does is that means of dealing with it prepares for the amazing thing that God has chosen to join a totally undeserving people to himself through the incarnation through his son, which is just.
Absolutely mind-blowing proposition, but that's really what we're saying. God has done and Kyle we've gone about 11 minutes past when we were supposed to stop. So I appreciate your phone calls an excellent phone call and thanks for listening today, okay.
Thanks. All right. God bless. All right. See there's. The only other two Christians in Canada were obviously at work today. We got we got one third of the Christian population of Canada to call it at once.
Excellent question. Thank you very much for listening to the program today. Remember remember remember tomorrow up to tomorrow Thursday. Dr. Michael Brown will be with us five o 'clock Eastern Time. We're gonna be talking about his book the real kosher Jesus and then we'll probably do a full-length dividing line right afterwards, too.
Maybe we can ask him to stay over we can talk a little bit about what's going on in the world in other areas as. Well, we'll see. Thanks for listening. We'll see on Thursday. God bless.
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