A No-Show, Technically Challenged Dividing Line

And welcome to The Dividing Line on a Tuesday afternoon, James White along with you.

And today we're supposed to be having a discussion on Mullenism. And if the gentleman who had the exchange with me a little over a week ago by the name of Rich Porter would like to call 877 -753 -3341, we'd be happy to have him on and have that conversation, as we had discussed.

I certainly am prepared to engage in that conversation. I think it would be useful and helpful to folks.

And so we'll just watch that phone line and hope that happens pretty soon here. Meanwhile, while Mr.

Porter's dialing us up there, it is a toll -free number, a number of interesting articles that I have encountered.

There's one that just, I don't know, Ben Witherington, fairly well -known

Protestant scholar, obviously a good bit to the left of me, but still, posted an article and that the article says

Timothy George on the churches of Rome. So my gut feeling is that this is a quotation.

It just isn't formatted to show it as such, but at the end of the whole thing, it says

Timothy George is Dean of Beeson Divinity School of Samford University and General Editor of the Reformation Commentary on Scripture, which is what caught my attention here.

So I'm going to assume just based upon what's here on Witherington's blog, which is on Patheos, which says something,

I'm not going to read the whole thing, but if you, if you take the time to look at it, it is just a gushing discussion of George Weigel's beautiful new book,

Roman Pilgrimage, The Station Churches. And Witherington, I think, included this picture in the series he did.

You know, it starts off, it says, I am not a Roman Catholic, but I love the churches of Rome. And it just goes through this.

And when Witherington, I'm sorry if I'm misremembering this, but my recollection is that Witherington had had a opportunity of meeting the

Pope and talked so highly of the experience and, and so on and so forth.

And it, it just makes me feel really creepy when someone who is the

General Editor of the Reformation Commentary on Scripture, do you really think that the reformers would have written blog articles about how pretty

Rome's churches were? I mean, evidently any more to look at, you know, when

I was in Rome briefly, I blogged about it and, oh, I just offended.

I offended people right out of their socks. I really did. You're gonna have to let me know by the way, if anyone calls, because I, for some reason we've got net issues again and I can't,

I can't see the phones anymore. So I can't control them, can't see them. And I don't know why, but every once in a while that seems to happen.

And I don't know why anyway. I offended everybody because I talked about how gaudy, and that's not

G -O -D, it's G -A -W -D, how gaudy and just repulsive everything that I saw there was.

Um, just, just thinking about the money, you know, looking up and seeing the

Petrine promise, knowing the abuse of that historically up in the Rotunda there,

St. Peter's and the gold and, uh, just, just thinking about the sale of indulgences that helped pay to build this place.

I mean, it was paid for by heresy and, and the abuse of people.

Do forgive me for putting the gospel first, but that's what

I did and oh, people were just so offended. I just can't believe you can look at Michelangelo and be thinking about gospel things.

Okay. I can understand why a lot of people would be confused by that. Uh, but that's what

I did. And today when I see people playing footsie with Rome and I never hear them talking about the papacy,

I never hear them talking about the blasphemy of claiming to be the

Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ and alter Christus. I never hear him saying anything about that. I don't hear him talking about the blasphemy of purgatory, the blasphemy of transubstantiation and a perpetuatory sacrifice that never perfects anybody.

Never hear him talking about any of that stuff. Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope. But they'll talk all about how pretty it is in Rome.

And I just go, how's the water out there in the middle of the Tiber these days? It was green last time

I was there, uh, did not look like a river that I would want to be paddling around it.

But man, there's a lot of people paddling around in it today. Um, when you really start thinking about how many people today are

Protestants of conviction, they are, they, they have a firm conviction that Rome does not possess the gospel of Jesus Christ and that Rome fundamentally presents a system that needs to be evangelized, needs to hear the gospel.

If you really believe that you are a small minority, small minor.

Oh, there's lots of people that detest Rome. I run into anti -Catholic bigots all the time. They just don't like Catholics.

There's people that don't like Jews and there's people that don't like this or the other thing. But, but real

Protestants of conviction, small numbers, small numbers, very, very small numbers.

And so, uh, if this does represent, uh, Timothy George's view,

I'm just sort of like, ah, great. Lovely. Uh, how, how strange, uh, how strange that is.

I was still waiting for, uh, Richard Porter to give us a call, uh, 877 -753 -3341.

We were straightforward in letting him know when it would be six o 'clock Eastern daylight time,

Tuesday. Yep. Phone lines working. Uh, I did not expect this. I really expected to have a nice conversation on, um, um, you know,

I, I, I, once he calls, I'm assuming he'll still call. Um, I would like to, um, um, ask him to define some terms and, and I, I think,

I think we could, uh, we could get some, you know, uh, some, some clarity on issues and, uh, we'll see, we'll see.

Um, but so far, uh, no, no phone call. And I, I'm sorry for that because I really would like to, uh, talk with him, but we'll, we'll see if, uh, he's just been delayed.

It's possible. I mean, he didn't even have a flat tire for that matter. Um, and if you don't have the number on your cell phone or everybody has, well,

I was gonna say everybody has a cell phone now, but then I realized I started thinking about Don Frye and actually

I think he has one. I actually think that when he goes out, he has one.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's big. Hello. Hello Lucy.

Yeah. That's. I think he'd be more comfortable with that.

Uh, he does not want a smartphone. I can assure you of that. Uh, uh, but, uh, anyway, we'll, uh, we'll keep hoping that, uh,

Mr. Porter will, uh, we'll give us a call here in just a few moments. Um, a number of you saw, well, actually probably almost nobody did, but Ergon Kanner selected as camp pastor by Westside Baptist in Gainesville, Florida for summer youth retreat.

And they use graphic adult TV show as theme. Well, you know,

I, I looked at the graphics and, uh, yeah, yeah, I, there's no question they are playing off of Game of Thrones, which

I've never seen. Um, you know, the only reason I know anything about Game of Thrones at all is

I was watching some Honest trailers. Ever seen Honest trailers? Oh, Honest trailers are normally hilarious.

Sometimes they can get a little off color, but, uh, it is funny to watch Honest trailers of movies you've actually seen.

They're not nearly as funny when you actually haven't seen the movie. Um, and I, I forget which one

I had seen, but then at the end, you know, it always has all these things you can click on to see something else. And so I had heard about this

Game of Thrones. I didn't know anything about it. So I clicked on it and I'm like, really, this is an

HBO series. Honestly, you can actually watch this and it's just, it's just, it's pornographic, incestuous.

It's just everything. It's, um, certainly not something that a Christian would want to voluntarily expose themselves to.

And, um, so this is, this is for youth, sixth through 12th grade, and you're going to use even the letters and the graphics from what is clearly an anti -Christian.

Now, now I'm hoping that what they'll do, obviously, is say, well, who's on the throne of your life?

Okay. I, I get it, but do you really have to go that direction? But of course, uh, the problem obviously is you're asking

Ergon Kanner to be camp pastor in the first place. And, um, uh, you know,

I, I understand so, so many of these folks, uh, just don't know they, they don't, they don't check things out.

Uh, the idea of, of protecting the pulpit, protecting the sheep, just not all that big in a lot of churches.

I, you know, we can count on, I think one hand may, might, maybe, might, might require us another finger.

Now, uh, the number of people who've preached from the pulpit of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church in the past 15, 20 years, um, we are very, very careful about that.

And I think that's a good thing in comparison to the, Hey, come on in. Anybody, you think you'll bring some more people come on in a perspective that seems to be so prevalent amongst many churches, um, as far as that goes.

And so I understand, you know, these folks at this church, I, I doubt very much that they have, um, they've watched my presentation,

Ergon Kanner, that they've looked at any of the information. I, I, I get it. I, I understand.

Uh, there's a, there's a naivete amongst many evangelicals that say, as long as somebody says,

I love Jesus, you just believe in everything they have to say. And that's why you have so many charlatans running around, uh, making a mint off of the, uh, off the sheep, uh, because the shepherds don't, uh, don't keep an eye out for things.

And I, again, a lot of the shepherds don't know, unfortunately. Uh, but, uh, to combine the, the problems with Ergon Kanner, his lies, his unrepentant attitude about those lies and, uh, his unrepentance toward, uh, suing

Christian brothers, thankfully losing both of those lawsuits.

The second in truly fantastic fashion. I'm still thinking back over the words that that judge used.

And you just, you can't slap anybody down any harder than that. I don't think without, without really getting specific, but, um, anyway, uh, that doesn't ever cross anybody's mind.

What if, what if one of these youth does some what?

Oh, okay. I thought you were letting me know that there was a phone call or there's no, there's no phone call. No.

Um, what if these youth after the things over go online as youth are want to do and look up Ergon Kanner, I'm going to do that right now.

Let's let's say, um, I, I'm gonna, uh, well, actually let me go to, uh, let me go to Google here.

Actually, while you're doing that, my thought was what if one of the youth, uh, does this before?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's just one of those youth retreats. It's out in the middle of nowhere. Um, how many kids will be on the early buses coming back?

Well, let's see. Uh, the first three are Kanner's sites or Wikipedia or Twitter.

Fourth one is right wing watch and their report on Kanner losing while it was lawsuits.

Uh, the fifth one is me, uh, thoughts on Ergon Kanner terrorist, cyber terrorist

LU's leadership. So one of the recent, uh, dividing lines, uh, Liberty student news,

Ergon Kanner guilty removed as Dean from seminary, uh, Ergon Kanner topics Christianity today.

Um, Ergon Kanner goes on Twitter rage, pronouncing himself innocent. One of my, my blog articles.

Uh, then you've got, uh, in defense of Ergon Kanner response to his critics from fake ex -Muslims, uh, then unveiling

Islam. And then the bottom page is simply Alpha Omega ministries and, uh, uh, in the images in the right, you've got

Ergon Kanner images at the bottom. First person up yours truly. Uh, next to me is

Norman Geisler, which could not make Norm very happy. And then John Ankerberg. So me next to two of the architects of the great evangelical coverup.

Uh, there you go. So it wouldn't take too much. And if they really wanted to dig deep and you know, you know, when someone's desperate for information, they click the second page of Google, uh, university

Ergon Kanner in the integrity of Baptist institutions, um, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Then we've got, then we've got Ergon Kanner, the Lance Armstrong of evangelical Christianity. Whoa, that's from a

FBC. Jack's watchdog. Uh, I had seen that one. That's funny.

The Lance Armstrong of evangelical Christianity. Hmm. Okay. And then, uh, uh, finally, uh,

Jason gets on there with, uh, two on the second page, uh, in regards to his loss.

So there's all sorts of stuff that you're going to find. And, uh, you know,

I, I just wonder if the pastor, you know, these kids looked this up and they come back to the pastor and go, so pastor, did you know about this stuff?

And, uh, they might go, well, you know, we heard, you know, that's a good old boy network.

It's a good old boy network. That's a problem. And it's, it's a shame. So Westside Baptist in Gainesville.

Um, you know, I don't have any information demonstrating that the leadership really has any knowledge whatsoever of Eric and Cantor, but at this point in time, how could you not?

I mean, what are you going to do? Uh, did you not do a quick Google search on somebody?

Do you just, you just trust what everybody has to say? I don't know. I don't know.

Uh, my daughter posted something here. It says, uh, uh, yeah, yeah.

Look, look what is most often searched for. Eric and Cantor controversy, Eric and Cantor, Twitter, Eric and Cantor, James White and Eric and Cantor exposed.

That's just got to drive him nuts. Uh, but that's true. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Thank you.

My daughter is listening in. Um, don't know. I saw you on the, on the phone there.

You were just talking to somebody else, somebody else. Okay. Uh, Mr. Porter calling

Richard Porter. Uh, we, we arranged to do something today and, uh,

I'm, I'm hoping that you'll, you know, if you're not going to do it, Mr. Porter, would you at least have the kindness to tweet me or something and say, ain't going to do it.

Would it, would it be improper for me to maybe suggest that he might've called a show and alternate?

You mean a different possible world? Uh, that's feasible. We need to use proper terminology.

Okay. Uh, that, that, that it'd be a different feasible world. So it would be proper, but it might not be feasible or would be feasible, but not necessarily proper.

Just asking. Yeah. Well, and we wanted some clarity on that. So, uh, and that's, that's anyway.

All right. We can, we can, it was a counterfactual. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Might as well go ahead and mention this.

Um, news came out over the weekend and late last week,

I think about, um, shall we say, uh, the exercise of presidential privilege at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in regards to, in essence, the, uh, um, uh, suspension of the requirements for entrance into Southwestern on the part of the president of Southwestern.

So as to allow students at Southwestern who are not Christians specifically, uh, a

Muslim and two Mormons now, when, when

Dr. Patterson was asked about this specifically in regards to the, uh, the

Muslim doctoral student in archeology, uh, his response was that he agreed to follow the moral code of the seminary.

You know, eat, drink that kind of stuff. Um, that's nice.

I'm glad to hear that. And I know that Mormons would do the same thing and they can be very moral and things like that.

Um, I don't know. I just find it incredibly ironic that I would be persona non grata on the campus of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Um, but you can have Mormons and Muslims there as students.

Um, I wouldn't be allowed to teach there, but they're allowed, uh, to, to enroll in, um, in the program there, even though according to the bylaws and stuff, and obviously what's causing a lot of people a problem, and I can understand this is, um, the

Southern Baptist seminaries are supported by cooperative program giving and hence the reason that it's less expensive, significantly less expensive for a member of a

Southern Baptist, um, church to attend a Southern Baptist seminary is because their tuition is being, uh, in essence, underwritten by all

Southern Baptists, by the Southern Baptist convention as a whole. And so the seminaries do not have to, uh, budget based upon how much money they can just get out of the students.

There's a certain amount of money coming in from the cooperative program and from the Southern Baptist convention. And so that lowers the cost requirements for the, for the students, which would also include the

Muslim and the two Mormons. And so there are a lot of people going, uh,

I don't know that I give my money to the cooperative program to help educate, uh,

Mormon students at Southwestern. Now, of course, the first thought across my mind, as soon as I heard this was, ah, now we, you've, you've heard of evangelism dating.

Uh, now we have evangelism education. And so we're trying to, uh, convert

Mormons and Muslims by allowing them to attend our institutions of higher learning and in the hopes,

I would assume of such a clear presentation of the gospel that, um, that there is an opportunity for their, uh, their salvation in essence.

So there has been quite the, um, quite the, uh, the brouhaha, uh, concerning this, especially in light of the fact that the, the entrance requirements are rather clear.

Uh, there, there really isn't a question about it. I mean, you, you have to profess Jesus Christ as Lord and no

Muslim can do that. And if you think a Mormon is doing that when they are polytheists and believe that Jesus is the offspring of Elohim, uh, with one of his heavenly wives, uh, man, no, that doesn't, that doesn't cut it either.

So obviously a developing story. And it would be very interesting to know, uh, if there are any other seminaries, uh, that would have, um, non

Christian specifically practice people who are practicing a religion other than Christianity, which

I, you all have heard this before, but I would say, uh, that the

Muslim is closer to the truth of Christianity, uh, than, uh, than the

Mormons. I'll tell you what we'll do. Um, I'm going to, um, give

Mr. Porter a few more minutes here, uh, in case he's just delayed or, you know, as a car pulling into the parking lot right now, maybe, uh, who knows, we could have an in -studio guest, there's two of them now, uh, pulling into the parking lot all at the same time.

Um, I'll give Mr. Porter a few more minutes. And what I will do is

I'm going to review some comments by, uh, Glenn Beck this morning, and if we don't have anything there, we'll just have to forget about it and, uh, maybe hopefully reschedule for the future.

And, um, then we can take some calls toward the end. So how's that sound? Sound like a plan?

Okay. Um, one of our channel regulars mentioned that this morning on, um, the

Glenn Beck show that, uh, Mr. Beck got somewhat, uh, angry at folks like myself.

He didn't mention me, but I certainly fall into the category here. It was interesting because as we listened to this

Glenn Beck, who is often, uh, a critic of progressives and the modern media and things like that, utilizes all the same false arguments that the progressives, liberals, and modern media use to demonize those that they don't like, which is rather interesting.

But, um, he started talking about his, uh, you know, week before last,

I think week before last, is that when I played the, um, uh, the video of him speaking at Liberty, I think it was week before last.

Well, evidently, um, I wasn't the only one who has, uh, referred to those things.

So let's listen in to what he, uh, what he had to say here. And I I'd like to, uh, make a few comments on his comments.

Hey, in completely unrelated news, um, uh, Liberty University is being smeared, absolutely smeared, and they're being smeared by religious people.

So people who claim to be followers of Christ. Now I've read the Bible several times and I just can't find the place where Jesus hates.

Um, isn't, isn't the, um, the hate accusation, the most single commonly used argument from the left, um, where when someone, you know,

I disagree that a Christian university should have a non -Christian speaking and allowing him to say, we share the same faith in the sense that I believe in the atonement.

And, and no, you don't. Oh, I believe in an atonement. Uh, okay.

But that's not believing in the atonement. It's not the Christian atonement.

It's not an atonement begun in the garden of Gethsemane and only completed Ross, then you've got

Brigham Young's doctrine of blood atonement. I don't think so. Uh, we're resetting and we're coming right back.

It's like you called it as a sky pickup the other day, just a little bit longer than a place where, where he says, you'll know a tree by the fruit.

I just can't find that. Really? Um, that's a direct quote of Jesus that you'll know them by their fruit.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's direct. Uh, doing the hater Westboro Baptist, uh, thing.

Um, but you know, when you take on an organization like Liberty university, I think you really should, um, really think things through.

Liberty university is one of the greatest universities in there. But again, that's not the issue.

Uh, the issue is if you, you put a person who thinks they're a Christian, um, you know,

Danites and, uh, send your kids anywhere, it doesn't matter, you know, um, go ahead and send them to a religious school.

But then again, I don't find Glenn Beck to be the most Orthodox or knowledgeable Mormon either.

So who knows the people who were in my church in the 1800s, lost family members, lost homes, lost everything.

In fact, lost their country, had to leave the country. I challenge you. Do you know your faith so well, you can not only defend it, but you're willing to die for it.

Um, be very careful. The early Mormons were deceived by evil men.

Joseph Smith was a fraud. And what you're saying is it's good to be willing to suffer for a lie because that's what they did.

And at this point they may be developing over time and, and so on and so forth.

But, um, you talk about someone as a martyr, you call him a prophet, probably read it anymore anyways, which is a sad commentary.

Um, but, uh, I found it. Look at that. You know, did that for so many years.

You can still remember, remember where it is. Um, doctrine and covenants section 70 along with the

Bible back then. Um, but what's more is, as I've described this,

I saw the roast sandwich heading for me to this day to, uh, unite kingdom would seek to arrange debates.

They wanted to have public baits, um, in those early days, it was not something that they and did not realize, did not realize that, um, his voice is getting louder and louder and louder and people are starting to look over at him and he's getting quite agitated.

And all I'm doing, of course, is quoting from Isaiah and pointing these things out. And finally,

I just will never, ever forget. He, he gets right in my face.

I mean, he's, he's definitely invading my private space and he's got his finger up and he's going and with a loud, clear voice.

And sometimes what would happen is I'm assuming it was during, yeah, it was during the pageant itself.

And there'll be times when the pageant makes a lot of noise. And then there are times that it gets very quiet. And this was one of those quiet times.

So there is nothing to mask him. And he sticks his finger in my face.

He's looking down at me and he says, someday I'm going to be a

God and you are going to worship me. And it's, it's, it's like it echoed.

And it's, it's, it's like one of those, those videos where you've got all these people, uh, you know, this sort of freeze, you know, they, they hear, they hear something.

Uh, what, what was the old commercials when EF Hutton talks, people listen? Yes. When EF Hutton talks, people listen.

Well, when elder Hollywood yelled, uh, people were frozen in place, you know?

Um, and he sort of looked around and realized what he had just done, because there were a lot of Mormons sitting there going,

Oh, really? Um, and so he, he sort of backed off and I think some other missionaries came over and sort of, and we ended up having a good conversation the next night later on.

But, um, that's the way they were back then. Now, ironically it was what about 10 years later or was it over 10 years later?

I think it was, I think it was a little bit over a decade later. I ran into him, I ran into him at the

South gate cross from, from, um, from the shopping center there.

What was that called? Crossroads, crossroads mall, crossroads mall. And, um, he wasn't a

Mormon anymore. He wasn't sure what he was anymore. It was sad, but, um, because, well, sad.

And I suppose that could be a point in his journey to the truth or something.

I don't know, but it's sad for me when I see someone who's just part of the religiously abused and they're just left out there.

But anyway, um, those types of Mormons that were saying,

I'm going to be a God and I can deal with that. I can talk with someone like that. It's the modern

Mormons that are just sort of ishy, squishy, so on and so forth that I have a hard time dealing with.

Um, so we're still having issues, huh? Oh, it looks like you just cleared up.

So this, but this will be the first time I've actually had to go into the YouTube feed and actually put the audio link in the description so that people can hear the whole show.

Cause yeah, YouTube missed about half of that so far, but the audio recordings excellent.

So we got all of the audio. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, uh, as anybody happened to sitting online, they're waiting for you to say open phones and they'll call.

Yeah, but we've only got five minutes. So that's sort of, sort of ridiculous. Um, do that. But, um, if someone wants to try,

I suppose we can do something quick. Come on, do something quick. I can screen them fast. Uh, yeah, yeah, we, we, we can do that.

877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341. Again, what we will do while Rich gets your calls is, um, uh, as to Mr.

Porter, uh, I, I did not receive any information from him that he was unwilling, uh, to be on the program.

And, um, the last we had had, you know, I did earlier today to try to find, try tweet to him, make sure,

Hey, you're going to be on. He didn't ever respond to me. Um, or at least if he did,

I didn't, uh, let me see here real quick that I had a D that, uh, cause

I would think that would come up in the other window I had open, but sometimes I'm wrong about these things, but, um,

I saw a, uh, I, I saw a, uh, a tweet from him that, uh, said something about my engaging in character assassination by posting what

I posted. And I just respond, I quoted you. How can that be character assassination?

So maybe that was his way of saying I'm not coming on. I don't know, but, um, hopefully

I'll let you know what happens because I'd still like to have that conversation, but if he doesn't, he doesn't that's, uh, that's okay.

Uh, let me see here. Um, all right. Let, um, which one's first.

I was talking to Andrew real quick. Hi, Andrew. Hello. Is this James White? Yes, it is. Hello, sir.

Um, my name is Andrew. As you heard, I'm a big fan and I've been immensely blessed by your work.

Um, I just, the place where my heart lies when it comes to mystery and where I kind of devoted myself extensively is the free grace

Lordship debate, which I heard you and I've heard your, um, Wilkins bait many, many times.

Yes. But, um, I'm just curious. Um, do you think that, and this is a very,

I guess it's a poignant, um, question, but would you say that the combination of versus, um, first Corinthians 1622, where it says, if anybody in love, not the

Lord, your God, let him be anathema and a combination of the verse and that verse along with, um,

John 14, 15, um, if you love me, you'll obey my commandments, even though I know they're not in the same context because they, um, display two congruent ideas.

Could that be used within that context? In the sense of, uh, providing,

I think a proper biblical warning, uh, that, um, making obedience to Christ commands a, uh, optional thing for super Christians rather than something that is the result of the very work of the spirit of God within our hearts so that as the writer of Hebrews says, uh, the holiness without which no one will see the

Lord. I heard your sermon on that. Yeah. Um, in that sense, not,

I wouldn't use it in the sense of a, of a debate. Um, but in the sense that, uh, we demonstrate our love for the

Lord in that way, that there needs to be a desire in the heart in that way,

I think that's appropriate, but I wouldn't use it as a, as a, you know, a gotcha argument, uh, in that sense.

Makes sense. And one last other question that's slightly, um, more, not so much exegetical or debate, just more of an insight.

Would you say that even though many people aren't free graced by conviction, there are many people that are practically free grace, you know, just people that, you know, would never in a million years call somebody out as false brethren.

Um, do you think that that has contributed to, you know, the very, um, just the allowance of heresy into the church?

I mean, I mean, I mean, I think that movement has gained, has given those people who would never call somebody out as the false brethren,

I think this has given them theological grounds to not call them out.

Well, it, it really, it, it, it goes the other direction. I think the free grace movement is the result of that general degradation in commitment to the gospel and a concern for the truth, the gospel, and even a belief there is a truth of the gospel.

It opens up the, the, the, the room and the space, uh, for the acceptance of that kind of, of teaching.

So I don't think it's that the free grace movement results in this. I think it's the other way around. I think it, it resulted from that, that degradation over time of commitment to a sound biblical gospel and, and the elements that are so reprehensible to the natural man, specifically the wrath of God, uh, the, the fact that God has a purpose in the redemption of his people and that is to conform them to the image of Christ and, and so on and so forth.

So I would actually see the relationship reversed at that point. Um, but there's a lot, there's lots of reasons why this is, this is, uh, this is a risen, uh,

I think, especially in Western culture, it's, it's just part of God's judgment upon, upon Western culture and a sound discerning church is a blessing upon a nation.

And this nation certainly is not in a position to be demanding any, any blessings. So, so, um, all right.

All right. Um, yeah, I appreciate it, Dr. White. You have blessed me so much and I really appreciate it.

Okay. Thank you, Andrew. Appreciate it. All right. God bless. All right. Um, you want, you want to do still there?

All right. One more real quick or we'll go, we'll go over time a few minutes. Uh, let's talk with Rick. Hi, Rick. Hi, Dr.

White. Uh, just a quick question. Um, I, you'll have to forgive me cause I don't, uh, read Greek, uh, for the very reason that you said a little

Greek is a dangerous thing. I, I got rid of my concordance, but so I can't really, can't do either. Uh, in John 3, 16, where, uh, it said whosoever believe it, uh, should not in the

King James or shall not. Is that a subjunctive clause? Yeah, it's a Hinnok clause. Um, okay.

Cause my question is, I remember, I have, I, I've listened to Kerrigan Skelly for a while, just because, you know, it keeps my blood boiling.

But when I heard you do a review of his mass mass suggest running, rowing, or cycling, uh, would be better, uh, better ways of, of doing that.

Really? Honestly, point taken. But, uh, when I was listening to you review his, uh, his video,

I just had the thought if he's really consistent with his, you know, use, or should I say abusive, you know, subjunctive or Hinnok clauses, wouldn't he have to apply that to John 3, 16 and actually say that, uh, well, there are going to be people that do believe in Christ, but go to hell anyway.

Wouldn't he have to do that? Well, and he does because he, he believes that you can believe and truly believe and then fall away.

So, well, it, that, that, cause that text doesn't say anything about falling away. I mean, at least to me, that text is communicating the belief in Christ and there's no, there's no talking about, you know, the possibility of falling away.

It just says those who believe, you know, shall not perish. So, yeah, but I'm, and I, I'm not,

I'm not defending his false understanding, but my, I think I, he would agree, uh, that my understanding of his position is that the reason it's in the subjunctive is that there can be people who truly believe, but stop believing.

And hence, uh, the, the subjunctive here in his understanding, this is where he's completely wrong about the subjunctive, but at least back then, you know, who knows whether he'll change his views now or accept correction.

I have no idea. He hasn't, to my knowledge, responded to anything I've said so far. But my understanding is that what his perspective is, is that everyone believing, if they continue believing, will have eternal life, but not everyone's going to continue believing.

Therefore, that's why the subjunctive is there. That's wrong. That's not what, how it's functioning, but I have a feeling that's what he would have said anyways, at that particular point.

Well, I, I can, I can, I can, I can understand at least him trying to make that argument, but I guess

I'm not really good at articulating this part, but it seems to me that if, if he is correct or whatever, if his use of the subjunctive is correct, that text could only be used to say that people can truly believe and still go to hell anyways, not in the sense of falling away, but while believing, because the text itself doesn't, it's kind of like the whole golden chain of redemption.

One proceeds, or one just immediately follows the other. Well, you, you might want to, you might want to ask him.

Maybe he'll, uh, maybe he'll respond. I don't know. He hasn't responded to me, but I can guarantee it. Uh, they, they, they know that I've, that I've done it.

Hey, thanks for your phone call today, sir. I was just, I was just looking at some of the stuff in the chat channel.

Uh, including someone saying, um, uh, Dr. White, what is your opinion on Kanye and Kim's wedding?

I'm glad he didn't call in cause I'd have to hang up on him. Anyway, thanks for listening to Vinyl Island. Sorry about the technical difficulties.

Have no idea where that came from, but, uh, blame it on YouTube. Sorry that we didn't get into Molinism. Uh, we thought we were going to, we were ready to, but, um, we'll see what happened there and maybe, uh, we'll blog and let you know if it's going to happen sometime in the future.