Trail Talk: Continuationism and Charismatic Theology

Hey everyone, good afternoon. Hope you're doing well. It is trail talk edition of the conversations that matter podcast today. It's a bit Misty and rainy out which means that the park that I'm at right now Which is about 25 minutes from my home doesn't have a lot of people and I love coming here especially when there's not a lot of people and I have something to say today.

So I thought perfect for a trail talk. So I want to follow up on the video that I made on Monday. The interview that I did with Joel Webbin and Andrew Rappaport and we talked a lot about I Guess so the sign gifts speaking in tongues charismatic stuff and Some people thought well, the title was about word of faith.

You didn't really talk about that much and No, we didn't that's true. I don't think the conversation got derailed. It's just that's the way it flowed and And that's what long-form conversation often is is you're playing off each other and and so Joel and Andrew shared their for those who didn't see it shared their testimonies and included in their testimonies was going through a phase of word of faith teaching and being influenced by that and then coming to a more reformed understanding of the Bible and Christianity so I Think that was helpful.

I wanted them to share that they have experiences that I don't have but someone did point out and I thought it was worth Sharing with you. I've had some messages and some comments Along these lines that the arguments against using experience as a guide as opposed to the Bible relied on stories or experience and I thought you know, that's a it's a shrewd observation and That's one of the reasons I wanted to make this video.

I don't think that's completely true. Obviously, we did talk about Some biblical things we did talk about first Corinthians 13 primarily but Yeah, there was a lot of sharing. Hey, here's my experience and and and so I have some things to share about this.

Experience, Scripture, and the Fruit of False Teaching

I Do think experience is Important actually, I I think and I'll share some scriptures on this and why I think Though the Word of God is the final authority in matters of faith and practice and experience is helpful in observing Applications it's helpful in Spotting the fruit.

I mean, that's the whole Point of the false teaching is you know them by their fruit you see The immorality and just the sin that accompanies it and that gives you a clue to the bad theology. That's probably undergirding it.

So anyway Let me start here so this is a deviation I want to say that first Don't expect that. I'm gonna be talking about this a lot. This might be the last video unless I feel like I need to address something beyond this, but I don't think I will.

So I don't view this as the big threat. I don't view this as Something that's really worth me taking a lot of time to talk about. There's other ministries who I think do a good job talking about this.

And I have a lot of good friends who are continuationists charismatics Pentecostals some of my closest friends actually are in some of these camps and So I have no like ill feelings or anything like that I just I have my concerns and but the thing is like some of them are they're concerned about me So the feelings somewhat mutual I suppose.

I Do think there's a distinction that needs to be made between that and word of faith. You could think of word of faith as being Under the umbrella of the charismatic movement, I suppose but it is It is far worse as far as I would put it in the same category as a false gospel.

Where I put the social justice gospel so it I don't think all charismatics are word of faith, they don't believe in name it claim it that God's gonna bless you in material ways or is obligated to bless you in material ways simply because You have a certain level of faith.

I Just don't think that's biblical. I think if you look at the examples of the Apostles lives, you're gonna find there's a lot of suffering there's a lot of persecution there's a lot of things that that wouldn't fit that paradigm and Oftentimes these guys use the gospel for Trying to get rich quick and it's it's a shame I could talk about it for a while, but that's that's a whole nother ball of wax and it's Very bad.

I would say the charismatic stuff. I think is is unbiblical. I think Now I'm gonna explain this what why I think that. And I don't want to just rely on my experience of well Here's what I saw with friends of mine who were charismatic or something like that or you know people who aren't friends.

But I've seen negative things because I do think there's some very concrete biblical things that Lead me to this conclusion so I'll start off here with experience. I believe experience is an authority, but I believe the Word of God is the final authority in matters of faith and practice.

The More Sure Word and the Authority of Scripture

And I want to quote 2nd Peter in 2nd Peter chapter 1 verses 18 through 19 It says and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain. So Peter's talking about the mountain of transfiguration there with Jesus so we have the prophetic word made more sure to which you do well to pay attention as To a lamp shining in a dark place until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

So you have an apostle here saying? Look, I was on the Mount of Transfiguration. And you know what? I trust more than that the more sure word. What's the more sure word? Oh, it's it's the prophetic more sure word.

It is scripture. He's saying that that is that that is a Final authority that is that is takes precedence even over experience and so I do think in matters of faith and practice scriptures where we need to go to and These these other supporting things stories and experiences that we have they can give us a clue God can use them.

They can serve to help us out apply things. They're not the final authority though so That that is a starting premise that I have. I'm also they're not an ideologue or I try not to be. When it comes to cessationism there are people and I met them that they're they're rigid man I don't rigidly suspect every time someone says the Spirit worked in their heart to teach them something that They're in error or something like that.

That they're you know, you should have written it down in the Bible or something. Like I actually think the Spirit can work in those ways. I Believe that he's done that in my own life and So yeah, there's experience but that it's not just experience that makes me think this.

Because I think you know scripture does teach the Holy Spirit convinces the world of sin righteousness and judgment and I Think you see even that the Holy Spirit opens and closes doors like he did for Paul Paul passed through The Galatian region and he was forbade by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia right in Acts 16 so I don't I don't see anything in the Bible that says That God cannot speak through The Holy Spirit now, do you want to categorize that as God speaking?

I don't I don't feel comfortable saying necessarily that that's God speaking. But if someone wants to say if someone categorizes that way, I'm not gonna lose my mind over it. Like I understand God is communicating in that the Holy Spirit is communicating to you.

Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit applies the Word of God he brings to mind the things that Jesus said, but He also convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment and so He's going to he's gonna speak the things that Jesus has given him.

He's going he's his purpose is not to glorify himself, which is one of the problems. I think of the charismatic movement. It's to glorify Christ but He is going to work in different ways in different people.

Showing them the different sins that they're entangled in. Convicting them and I believe also leading them. So there's application. There's also though added information in a way. So when through circumstances.

The the old, you know reformed divines would say providence, which I'm more comfortable saying but the Holy Spirit also It seems at least has some kind of a role in this as well and in providence in the circumstances that we have in life that direct us towards different paths and and many of us can look back on our own lives and we can see this that You know jobs that we've gotten or friends that we've had or things like that.

So So I think the Holy Spirit uses people in each other's lives in unique ways. I think he prods us I don't have any problem with that and and this may surprise some because I do consider myself to be a cessationist, but I don't see anything in Scripture that says.

Maybe I'll be corrected on this and maybe I'll change my mind. I don't know but but where I'm at right now is I don't really actually see anything in Scripture That says that God cannot speak through dreams or visions.

Like he did with the wise man like he did with Peter. I have to qualify that and say though Those were very special times that that was a special dispensation when that happened God was bringing new revelation and there are these special times in Scripture when God uses signs to point to things and So should we expect them?

I don't think so. Should we Be somewhat suspicious when people have them or say they have them. I don't think you have to be it like a jerk about I mean, obviously they contradict Scripture. Yes, but I think that There is a there is a certain dose of healthy suspicion at least an understanding that This is not normative.

These are not the days of Elijah. All right declaring the Word of the Lord. They're just not so we have the word we have the can and we have Everything we need for life and godliness, right? So again, I'm I Getting into that territory.

This is again. We talked about it in the podcast on Monday, but this is The issue here would be the regulative principle or the normative principle. I'm not like a really strict regulative principle guy.

So a strict regulative principle guy would say no. Probably to that question. I'm I'm somewhat open to it at least because I think God can do that. But but I have some some very some qualifications and I think once people get through these Biblical Qualifications or if you want to call them that I suppose you could call them standards at the end of the day like 99 of what most charismatics say is from the Holy Spirit.

You're gonna be like nah, not really. That's probably not in my opinion so Here's some reasons I say that so a necessary separation first that we have to make is between Apostolic offices and gifts associated with them and Then miracles that God does independently of that.

Apostolic Signs and the End of the Apostolic Age

So if you go to 2nd Corinthians 12 12 It says the signs of a true Apostle were performed among you with all perseverance by signs and wonders and miracles. Revelation says there's only 12 foundational stones in the wall of the New Jerusalem though representing only 12 Apostles so if there's only 12 Apostles and You know, there's and I and I would include the people who worked alongside them in their ministry as being part of their ministry and and having the authority having a I don't know what you would call it a residual authority or a They were part of this unique time that God was bringing to light new revelation and pointing to it and authenticating it using these things and.

And so I don't think that. Because I know someone could bring up like well What about people who spoke in tongues who weren't right? Like I think you don't have to be an Apostle to speak in tongues. But I think the apostolic age though included these things and we're not in it.

That's my point like we're not in it and there were signs that it did accompany the office of Apostle the ministry of the Apostle the people around the Apostle. So if that's true if there's only 12 and some Pentecostal Denominations and so forth will they'll use the term hostile.

They'll call people Apostles and it's like yeah, I mean small a Apostle sure, but you know, let's not be confused here. We're not talking about the same level of authority as Paul or Peter. We're not talking about that so so that's the first thing and that that is what makes me a cessation is probably primarily because I Think that that office has ended and I think not just that but the gifts that were associated with that office are not in effect.

Right now doesn't mean that God can't do miracles though doesn't mean that you shouldn't pray for the sick and God can heal them miraculously if he wants to it does not mean that There aren't supernatural things.

I'm even open to the idea that You know God can do a me I don't know if I call it speaking in tongues, but I'm sure God could do a miracle and impart The knowledge of a certain language or help someone hear.

Something I mean there's stories of this from the mission field again. This is experience though. So this is where it's it's somewhat dangerous, but I wouldn't call that Biblical. I wouldn't say that that is the New Testament gift of tongues.

And that seems to be the biggest sticking point is that particular gift. So here's more in this grid this this grid of standards. Gifts are for the edification of the church not personal edification. So this private prayer language stuff.

I think that's that's rejected. It should be rejected. It's for the edification of the church. Paul goes into this very specifically in 1st Corinthians chapter 14. If you read the chapter Probably better to do it in a King James because it'll distinguish between unknown tongue and tongue and if you understand the Corinthian background you'll understand that they were engaging in pagan activities that mirrored or Mimic speaking in tongues.

Mormons do that other cults do that today. Hari Krishna, I think does that so. It's like the You know the the Pharaoh's magicians like they can mimic Certain things and they have their counterfeits and the Corinthians were engaged in that going to the temple.

And seeing temple prostitutes even but they would get into this this kind of swirling dervish and they would utter these. These they're not languages, but they're they're babbling and so in the first Corinthians 14 There does seem to be distinction between a tongue singular and tongues plural and and Paul seems to be I think it's obvious actually that he's.

He is trying to promote Speak the the legitimate gift of speaking in tongues while disqualifying the illegitimate supposed gift of speak of speaking in tongues that they would In their pagan ways that they had brought into the church.

So anyway, I don't have time to go through that whole entire passage, but there's a I'll just reference this. There's a good resource by George Gardner called the Corinthian catastrophe. You can get a little book or there's a series on sermon audio, and I think he does a good job going through that.

So anyway gifts are for the edification of the church not personal edification. Paul makes this clear in first Corinthians 12. Tongues was assigned to unbelieving Jews. So you see in chapter 14 of 1st Corinthians.

It says in the law it is written by men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers. Will I speak to this people and even so they will not listen to me says the Lord. Paul goes on he says so then our tongues the tongues are a sign not to those who believe.

That's unbelievers, but prophecy is for a sign not to unbelievers, but to those who believe. Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues and ungifted men or unbelievers enter will they not say you are mad.

So the whole context here is. There and there's multiple Old Testament passages that say this that when you hear these other languages Speaking these truths of God you're under judgment. And that's what happened on the day of Pentecost.

And So that is a sign to Jews. Specifically so that is another question to ask. Is if it's the gift of tongues specifically are there unbelieving Jews present? Because that's the purpose of that particular gift.

It's it is to edify the church, but it is also a sign to unbelieving Jews and and that fits into the edification somehow, so. That's that's the other thing to put in to that grid and then The other thing is tongues are not a sign gift more than any other spiritual gift.

It's not like well You don't have the Holy Spirit until tongues or something like that like till you have that experience because Paul makes clear in first Corinthians 12 that none of the gifts are Preferred over other ones like the I can't say to the hand, etc so.

The other thing is tongues is an actual human language. All the examples in scripture of tongues being spoken are actual human languages. First Corinthians 13 one says unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear.

You will be known. Let's see, how will it be known what is spoken for you will be speaking into the air. I don't think that's actually first Corinthians 13 one. I think that's in chapter 14. I don't know why I wrote that down.

But so so Paul critiques this idea of It not being an actual human language. People will grab on to first Corinthians 13 one though because he talks about speaking in the tongues of men and angle the angels, but you have to realize that's part of his rhetorical.

The rhetorical devices that he's using in that passage. Because he says in verse 17 of chapter 12 if the whole body were an eye Where would the hearing be. Obviously it is impossible for an entire body to be an eye.

In verse 2 of chapter 13 He states if I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge and do not have love I am nothing. So even for an apostle it was impossible to know all mysteries and knowledge, right?

In the next chapter the Apostle expresses now I wish that you all spoke in tongues and that's an impossibility given Paul's previous statements in chapter 12 of first Corinthians Making it clear that not all can possess the same gifting from God.

So Paul's statement that you know even if he could speak in the tongues of men and of angels is a statement of hyperbole and Certainly not a mandate to seek or speak a heavenly language so we have to consider this as well and Finally, this is the most cessation as part of this video.

I suppose there's good reason to think tongues has ceased as Paul predicted. So Paul said in first Corinthians chapter 13 Love never fails, but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away. If there are tongues, they will cease if there's knowledge.

It will be done away and There's different Greek words actually for done away and cease their tongues will cease in and of itself. The others will be done away. For we know in part done away when when something outside acts on them for we know in part and we prophesy in part.

But when the perfect comes the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child I think like a child reason like a child when I became a man I did away with childish things for now.

I see in a mirror dimly then face to face now I know in part, but then I would know fully just as I also have been fully known but now faith hope and love. Abide these three but the greatest of these is love.

So he's the whole book of first Corinthians is a correction. He's saying you don't have love. You're not you think you have all these gifts, but you don't even have love. That's the critique and so in in that passage, you know, he's not saying, you know, 70 AD.

That's when he doesn't like come out and say that that's when Gifts will cease and there are different ways to take this passage. I I'm now Wondering if I've gotten it wrong because Andrew Rappaport pointed out.

This is probably the Word of God. But as I've traditionally understood this it's Jesus. Because I always took the face-to-face to mean well, whoever it is it's a person because there's a face. So whether it's Jesus or the Word of God, though.

If it's Jesus coming back that that means, you know knowledge and prophecy are still around if it's not then. Those are gifts that were done away with with the completion of the Canon. Now we're getting out on a limb though here and that and this is I I do get it.

I think it's a worthwhile discussion, but I do get a little uncomfortable with it. Because I don't think there's a strong exegetical case that tongues is is Went away at a specific time. I think it's more of a actually a historical argument to be honest with you and.

Is it related to Scripture? It sure is because Paul predicts that tongues will cease. But that's what happened historically. So that's that's the argument actually is that Paul said it would happen and then it happened.

Well, how do you know what happened John? Well, we do have a historical record so we can look back and we can see. When in regards to tongues at least we can see that it was not practiced. Really until very very recently here.

We're talking like in Topeka, Kansas Charles Parham in 1901. Like that is but before that you'd like 1900 years of relative silence and the groups that who did say they spoke in tongues. Tended to be heretical.

In fact, I don't know of any that weren't and so. So this is kind of a problem like if all the spiritual gifts are present in the church. Then where was tongues for 1900 years, right? Like this is actually a major problem I think for the charismatic side to overcome because they have to figure out why now.

How come in the last hundred years all of a sudden it's made this big comeback. But where was it before that? So maybe some people think they have answers for that. I've never heard a good one in my opinion, but.

The Historical Case for the Cessation of Tongues

So some of the other things I think To think about in regards to this is that the last recorded sign gift. So so apostolic sign gift not talking about a miracle that God can do apart from having the gift.

But an actual gift was Paul healing Publius in Acts 28 in 1st Peter 4 there's a list of spiritual gifts and the sign gifts are left out. So so as you progress with the completion of the canon. The later books don't have the same things the earlier books have in Hebrews chapter 2 verses 3 through 4.

Sign gifts are referred to in the past tense. So, you know and even you know, I'm thinking of like even Paul who healed so many people. Telling was it was it Timothy? I think he said take a little wine for your stomach right, so there's there seems to be from where I'm sitting a Progression even in the course of the writing of the New Testament from strong sign gifts.

I mean Peter's shadow is falling on someone and they're getting healed kind of thing to. It fizzles out. The sign gifts they seem to die out with the Apostles now. That I think that's really what I wanted to say there's there's so much more I guess we could talk about but To summarize the gift of tongues.

Miracles and healing are not around. But that does not mean that these things cannot happen in. Apart from it being a gift it does in other words. It doesn't mean that God can't do miracles that God can't heal people that we shouldn't pray for that.

I think it's a miracle every time someone gets saved. Someone receives the Word of God and the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin. You have a miracle taking place and and so. So I I do think. Even if you're not a continuationist, right?

You should be very I think mindful of the leading of the Holy Spirit. And I think you should be you should just understand that we live in a world. That is supernatural. It's not just all cause and effect matter in motion we live in a very strange world at times and there's all kinds of things sometimes we can't explain and There's so many things beyond us and so.

There there's a very spiritual world out there a very real spiritual world. Doesn't mean a demons behind every single bush. Just just half of them I don't know. They're they're behind a lot of them, but it doesn't mean a demons behind every bush and.

And I just want to say this to to my continuationist friends because I have many out there. You know some of you guys There's a spectrum here. Some of you guys aren't that far away from me like you might say something like, you know.

You're open to the gift being around of tongues, but you still believe in some biblical criteria. I don't see that as Practically speaking that different to be honest with you because and I have been in churches with people like this I've actually been member of a church that had this theology and That particular church was not much different than the cessationist church.

I had been in so they were open to Speaking in tongues, but they had biblical criteria. So it just never happened, right? So You know and the other I didn't even mention this one, but the whole the idea of an interpreter I don't know if I want to get into this now, but first Corinthians 14 that is one of the criteria like if you're gonna speak in a Tongue that people don't understand if it's a human language that the people around you don't know There has to be an interpreter or else there's no communication.

So I that's another I guess grid you can put that through but but anyway, it's it's There may not be like the Big big difference. I think MacArthur is right John MacArthur that guys like John Piper do end up though, even though Even though they're like soft continuationist they can give a pass to guys who are more out there and and of course, that's the danger in any direction, but And I disagree with it, but I think you know continuationists many of you are supporters of mine I still think you're brothers and sisters in Christ.

It's not a something I want to fight over or anything like that The Word of Faith stuff though. Yes. I think that's worth fighting over. I just think there's other guys doing probably a better job than Than me and and it's not it's just not an interest of mine really.

So I'm probably not gonna make too many more videos on it. But I wanted my opinion to get out there so people knew exactly where I'm at at least right now on this topic and They're not speculating about it and And wondering I'm not as rigid as you get I guess on that spectrum, but I definitely Have my concerns and and I shared some of those if you haven't seen the video you can go back watch the interview I did on Monday with Joel and with Andrew and I do share some of my personal concerns and it really for me it has come down more for me to the damage I've seen the charismatic movement the effect it's had in people I know personally and It's a tendency.

It's again. This is experience. This is not what the Word of God says. This is John Harris right and his experience, but I've just seen a lot of insecurity a lot of just emotional ups and downs. Either the minimization or the maximization of sin sometimes it's like You know you fail then you're in the dumps because so much is dependent on you.

But but that's a scale you know and it's more the I would say the people who are more. You know deep deeper into the charismatic movement and and the Pentecostal denominations that more so have that. So anyway if you have Any thoughts for me you want to critique what I just said and you think I got something wrong.

I would love to hear from you. Just put a comment on the comment section of the video if you're watching on YouTube or rumble and I will get to it when I get a chance and Lord willing and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.

God bless.