Trail Talk: Continuationism and Charismatic Theology

Hey everyone, good afternoon. Hope you're doing well. It is trail talk edition of the conversations that matter podcast today

It's a bit Misty and rainy out which means that the park that I'm at right now

Which is about 25 minutes from my home doesn't have a lot of people and I love coming here especially when there's not a lot of people and I have something to say today.

So I thought perfect for a trail talk So I want to follow up on the video that I made on Monday The interview that I did with Joel Webben and Andrew Rappaport and we talked a lot about I Guess so the sign gifts speaking in tongues charismatic stuff and Some people thought well, the title was about word of faith.

You didn't really talk about that much and No, we didn't that's true. I don't think the conversation got derailed.

It's just that's the way it flowed and And that's what long -form conversation often is is you're playing off each other and and so Joel and Andrew shared their for those who didn't see it shared their testimonies and included in their testimonies was going through a phase of word of faith teaching and being influenced by that and then coming to a more reformed understanding of the

Bible and Christianity, so I think that was helpful I wanted them to share that they have experiences that I don't have but someone did point out and I thought it was worth

Sharing with you. I've had some messages and some comments Along these lines that the arguments against using experience as a guide as opposed to the

Bible relied on stories or experience and I thought you know, that's a It's a shrewd observation and That's one of the reasons

I wanted to make this video. I don't think that's completely true. Obviously we did talk about Some biblical things we did talk about first Corinthians 13 primarily but Yeah, there was a lot of sharing.

Hey, here's my experience and and and so I have some things to share about this. I Do think experience is

Important actually, I I think and I'll share some scriptures on this and why I think though the

Word of God is the final authority in matters of faith and practice an experience is helpful in observing

Applications it's helpful in Spotting the fruit. I mean, that's the whole

Point of the false teaching is you know them by their fruit you see the immorality and just the sin

That accompanies it and that gives you a clue to the bad theology that's probably undergirding it.

So anyway Let me start here. So this is a deviation. I want to say that first Don't expect that.

I'm gonna be talking about this a lot This might be the last video unless I feel like I need to address something beyond this, but I don't think

I will So I don't view This as the big threat. I don't view this as Something that's really worth me taking a lot of time to talk about there's other ministries who

I think do a good job talking about this and I have a lot of good friends who are continuationists charismatics

Pentecostals some of my closest friends actually are in some of these camps and So I have no like ill feelings or anything like that I just I have my concerns and but the thing is like some of them are they're concerned about me

So the feelings somewhat mutual I suppose I Do think there's a distinction that needs to be made between that and word of faith

I mean you could think of word of faith as being Under the umbrella of the charismatic movement,

I suppose but it is It is far worse as far as I would put it in the same category as a false gospel

Where I put the social justice gospel So it I don't think all charismatics are word of faith they don't believe in it name it claim it that God's gonna bless you in material ways or is obligated to bless you in material ways simply because You have a certain level of faith

I Just don't think that's biblical. I think if you look at the examples of the Apostles lives, you're gonna find there's a lot of suffering

There's a lot of persecution. There's a lot of things that that wouldn't fit that paradigm and oftentimes these guys use the gospel for Trying to get rich quick and it's it's a shame.

I could talk about it for a while. But that's that's a whole nother ball of wax and it's

Very bad. I would say the charismatic stuff. I think is is unbiblical.

I think Now I'm gonna explain this what why I think that And I don't want to just rely on my experience of well

Here's what I saw with friends of mine who are charismatic or something like that or you know people who aren't friends

But I've seen negative things because I do think there's some very concrete biblical things that Lead me to this conclusion so I'll start off here with experience

I believe experience is an authority, but I believe the Word of God is the final authority in matters of faith and practice

And I want to quote 2nd Peter in 2nd Peter chapter 1 verses 18 through 19 It says and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain

So Peter's talking about the mountain of transfiguration there with Jesus so we have the prophetic word made more sure to which you do well to pay attention as To a lamp shining in a dark place until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts

So you have an apostle here saying Look, I was on the mount of transfiguration and You know what?

I trust more than that the more sure word What's the more sure word? It's it's the prophetic more sure word it is scripture he's saying that that is that that is a

Final authority that is that it takes precedence even over Experience and so I do think in matters of faith and practice scripture is where we need to go to and These other supporting things stories and experiences that we have they can give us a clue

God can use them They can serve to help us out apply things. They're not the final authority though so That that is a starting premise that I have

I'm also though not an ideologue or I try not to be When it comes to cessationism there are people and I met them that they're they're rigid man

I don't rigidly suspect every time someone says the Spirit worked in their heart to teach them something that They're in error or something like that That they're you know, you should have written it down in the

Bible or something Like I actually think the Spirit can work in those ways. I Believe that he's done that in my own life

And so yeah, there's experience but that it's not just experience that makes me think this Because I think you know scripture does teach the

Holy Spirit convinces the world of sin righteousness and judgment and I Think you see even that the

Holy Spirit opens and closes doors like you did for Paul Paul passed through The Galatian region and he was forbade by the

Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia right in Acts 16 So I don't I don't see anything in the

Bible that says That God cannot speak through The Holy Spirit now, do you want to categorize that as God speaking?

I don't I don't feel comfortable saying necessarily that that's God speaking But if someone wants to say if someone categorizes that way,

I'm not gonna lose my mind over it. Like I understand God is communicating in that the Holy Spirit is communicating to you.

Holy Spirit is The Holy Spirit applies the Word of God he brings to mind the things that Jesus said but he also convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment and so He's going to he's gonna speak the things that Jesus has given him

He's going he's his purpose is not to glorify himself, which is one of the problems. I think of the charismatic movement It's to glorify

Christ but He is going to work in different ways in different people

Showing them the different sins that they're entangled in Convicting them and I believe also leading them

So there's application There's also though added information in a way.

So when through circumstances the the old, you know reformed divines would say

Providence which I'm more comfortable saying but the Holy Spirit Also it seems at least has some kind of a role in this as well and in Providence in the circumstances that we have in life that direct us towards different paths and many of us can look back on our own lives and we can see this that you know jobs that we've gotten or friends that we've had or things like that, so So I think the

Holy Spirit uses people in each other's lives in unique ways. I think he prods us

I don't have any problem with that. And and this may surprise some because I do consider myself to be a cessationist, but I don't see anything in Scripture that says

Maybe I'll be corrected on this and maybe I'll change my mind I don't know but but where I'm at right now is

I don't really actually see anything in Scripture That says that God cannot speak through dreams or visions

Like he did with the wise man like he did with Peter. I have to qualify that and say though Those were very special times that that was a special dispensation when that happened

God was bringing new revelation and there are these special times in Scripture when

God uses signs to point to things and So should we expect them?

I don't think so. Should we Be somewhat suspicious when people have them or say they have them

I don't think you have to be it like a jerk about I mean, obviously they contradict Scripture. Yes, but I think that There is a there is a certain dose of healthy suspicion at least an understanding that This is not normative.

These are not the days of Elijah. All right declaring the Word of the Lord They're just not so we have the word we have the can and we have

Everything we need for life and godliness, right? so again, I'm I Getting into that territory.

This is again. We talked about it in the podcast on Monday, but this is The issue here would be the regulative principle or the normative principle.

I'm not like a really strict regulative principle guy so a strict regulative principle guy would say no

Probably to that question. I'm I'm somewhat open to it at least because I think God can do that But but I have some some very some qualifications and I think once people get through these

Biblical Qualifications or if you want to call them that I suppose you could call them standards at the end of the day like 99 % of what most charismatics say is from the

Holy Spirit. You're gonna be like nah, not really That's probably not in my opinion so Here's some reasons

I say that it's a necessary separation first that we have to make is between Apostolic offices and gifts associated with them and Then miracles that God does independently of that.

So if you go to 2nd Corinthians 12 12 It says the signs of a true Apostle were performed among you with all perseverance by signs and wonders and miracles

Revelation says there's only 12 foundational stones in the wall of the New Jerusalem though representing only 12

Apostles so if there's only 12 Apostles and You know, there's and I and I would include the people who worked alongside them in their ministry as being part of their ministry and and having the authority having a

I don't know what you would call it a residual authority or a They were part of this unique time that God was bringing to light new revelation and pointing to it and authenticating it using these things and And so I don't think that Because I know someone could bring up like well

What about people who spoke in tongues who weren't right like I think you don't have to be an Apostle to speak in tongues

But I think the apostolic age though included these things and we're not in it That's my point like we're not in it

And there were signs that it did accompany the office of Apostle the ministry of the Apostle the people around the

Apostle So if that's true if there's only 12 and some Pentecostal Denominations and so forth will they'll use the term hostile

They'll call people Apostles and it's like yeah, I mean small a Apostle sure, but you know, let's not be confused here

We're not talking about the same level of authority as Paul or Peter. We're not talking about that so so that's the first thing and that that is what makes me a cessationist probably primarily because I Think that that office has ended and I think not just that but the gifts that were associated with that office are not in effect

Right now doesn't mean that God can't do miracles though doesn't mean that you shouldn't pray for the sick and God can heal them miraculously if he wants to it does not mean that There aren't supernatural things.

I'm even open to the idea that You know God can do a me I don't know if I call it speaking in tongues, but I'm sure

God could do a miracle and impart The knowledge of a certain language or help someone hear Something I mean there's stories of this from the mission field again.

This is experience though So this is where it's it's somewhat dangerous, but I wouldn't call that Biblical I wouldn't say that that is the

New Testament gift of tongues And that seems to be the biggest sticking point is that particular gift

So here's more in this grid. This is grid of standards Gifts are for the edification of the church not personal edification.

So this private prayer language stuff. I think that's that's rejected It should be rejected

It's for the edification of the church Paul goes into this very specifically in 1st Corinthians chapter 14

If you read the chapter Probably better to do it in a King James because it'll distinguish between unknown tongue and tongue and if you understand the

Corinthian background you'll understand that they were engaging in pagan activities that mirrored or Mimic speaking in tongues

Mormons do that other cults do that today. Hari Krishna, I think does that so It's like the

You know the the Pharaoh's magicians like they can mimic Certain things and they have their counterfeits and the

Corinthians were engaged in that going to the temple And seeing temple prostitutes even but they would get into this this kind of swirling dervish and they would utter these

These they're not languages, but they're they're babbling and So in the first Corinthians 14

There does seem to be distinction between a tongue singular and tongues plural and and Paul seems to be

I think it's obvious actually that he's He is trying to promote

Speak the the legitimate gift of speaking in tongues while disqualifying the illegitimate supposed gift of speak of speaking in tongues that they would

In their pagan ways that they had brought into the church So anyway,

I don't have time to go through that whole entire passage, but there's a I'll just reference this There's a good resource by George Gardner Called the

Corinthian catastrophe you can get a little book or there's a series on sermon audio And I think he does a good job going through that So anyway gifts are for the edification of the church not personal edification

Paul makes this clear in first Corinthians 12 Tongues was assigned to unbelieving Jews.

So you see in chapter 14 of 1st Corinthians it says in the law it is written by men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers while I speak to this people

And even so they will not listen to me says the Lord Paul goes on he says so then our tongues the tongues are a sign not to those who believe

That's unbelievers, but prophecy is for a sign not to unbelievers, but to those who believe

Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues and ungifted men or unbelievers enter will they not say you are mad so the whole context here is

There and there's multiple old testament passages that say this that when you hear these other languages

Speaking these truths of God you're under judgment. And that's what happened on the day of Pentecost. And So that is a sign to Jews Specifically so that is another question to ask

Is if it's the gift of tongues specifically are there unbelieving

Jews present? Because that's the purpose of that particular gift. It's it is to edify the church, but it is also a sign to unbelieving

Jews and and that fits into the edification somehow, so That's that's the other thing to put in to that grid and then

The other thing is tongues are not a sign gift more than any other spiritual gift It's not like well

You don't have the Holy Spirit until tongues or something like that like till you have that experience because Paul makes clear in first Corinthians 12 that none of the gifts are

Preferred over other ones like the I can't say to the hand, etc so The other thing is tongues is an actual human language

All the examples in scripture of tongues being spoken are actual human languages

First Corinthians 13 one says unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear.

You will be known Let's see, how will it be known what is spoken for you will be speaking into the air

I don't think that's actually first Corinthians 13 one. I think that's in chapter 14

I don't know why I wrote that down. But so so Paul critiques this idea of It not being an actual human language

People will grab on to first Corinthians 13 one though because he talks about speaking in the tongues of men and angle the angels, but you have to realize that's part of his rhetorical

The rhetorical devices that he's using in that passage Because he says in verse 17 of chapter 12 if the whole body were an eye

Where would the hearing be obviously it is impossible for an entire body to be an eye In verse 2 of chapter 13

He states if I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge and do not have love I am nothing

So even for an apostle it was impossible to know all mysteries and knowledge, right? In the next chapter the

Apostle expresses now I wish that you all spoke in tongues and that's an impossibility given

Paul's previous statements in chapter 12 of first Corinthians Making it clear that not all can possess the same gifting from God So Paul's statement that you know even if he could speak in the tongues of men and of angels is a statement of hyperbole and Certainly not a mandate to seek or speak a heavenly language so we have to consider this as well and Finally, this is the most cessation as part of this video

I suppose there's good reason to think tongues has ceased as Paul predicted. So Paul said in first Corinthians chapter 13

Love never fails, but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away If there are tongues, they will cease if there's knowledge.

It will be done away and There's different Greek words actually for done away and cease their tongues will cease in and of itself.

The others will be done away For we know in part done away when when something outside acts on them for we know in part and we prophesy in part

But when the perfect comes the partial will be done away When I was a child, I used to speak like a child

I think like a child reason like a child when I became a man I did away with childish things for now

I see in a mirror dimly then face to face now, I know in part, but then I would know fully Just as I also have been fully known but now faith hope and love

Abide these three but the greatest of these is love. So he's the whole book of first Corinthians is a correction He's saying you don't have love.

You're not you think you have all these gifts, but you don't even have love That's the critique and so in in that passage, you know, he's not saying, you know, 70

AD That's when he doesn't like come out and say that that's when Gifts will cease and there are different ways to take this passage.

I I'm now Wondering if I've gotten it wrong because Andrew Rappaport pointed out.

This is probably the Word of God But as I've traditionally understood this it's Jesus Because I always took the face -to -face to mean well whoever it is it's a person because there's a face

So whether it's Jesus or the Word of God though If it's Jesus coming back that that means, you know, knowledge and prophecy are still around if it's not then

Those are gifts that were done away with with the completion of the Canon Now we're getting out on a limb though here and that and this is

I I do get it I think it's a worthwhile discussion, but I do get a little uncomfortable with it because I don't think there's a strong exegetical case that tongues is is

Went away at a specific time. I think it's more of a actually a historical argument to be honest with you and Is it related to Scripture?

It sure is because Paul predicts that tongues will cease But that's what happened historically. So that's that's the argument actually is that Paul said it would happen and then it happened

Well, how do you know it happened John? Well, we do have a historical record so we can look back and we can see

When in regards to tongues at least we can see that it was not practiced Really until very very recently here.

We're talking like in Topeka, Kansas Charles Parham in 1901 Like that is but before that you'd like 1900 years of relative silence and the groups that who did say they spoke in tongues

Tended to be heretical. In fact, I don't know of any that weren't and so So this is kind of a problem like it if all the spiritual gifts are present in the church

Then where was tongues for 1900 years, right? Like this is actually a major problem I think for the charismatic side to overcome because they have to figure out why now

How come in the last hundred years all of a sudden it's made this big comeback. But where was it before that? So maybe some people think they have answers for that I've never heard a good one in my opinion, but So Some of the other things

I think To think about in regards to this is that the last recorded sign gift

So so apostolic sign gift not talking about a miracle that God can do apart from having the gift

But an actual gift was Paul healing Publius in Acts 28 in first Peter 4

There's a list of spiritual gifts and the sign gifts are left out So so as you progress with the completion of the

Canon The later books don't have the same things the earlier books have in Hebrews chapter 2 verses 3 through 4

Sign gifts are referred to in the past tense So, you know and even you know,

I'm thinking of like even Paul who healed so many people Telling was it was it Timothy? I think he said take a little wine for your stomach right, so there's

There seems to be from where I'm sitting a Progression even in the course of the writing of the

New Testament from strong sign gifts I mean Peter's shadow is falling on someone and they're getting healed kind of thing to It fizzles out

The sign gifts they seem to die out with the Apostles now

That I think that's really what I wanted to say. There's there's so much more I guess we could talk about but The to summarize the gift of tongues

Miracles and healing are not around But that does not mean that these things cannot happen in Apart from it being a gift it does in other words

It doesn't mean that God can't do miracles that God can't heal people that we shouldn't pray for that I think it's a miracle every time someone gets saved

Someone receives the Word of God and the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin. You have a miracle taking place and and so So I I do think

Even if you're not a continuationist, right? You should be very I think mindful of the leading of the

Holy Spirit And I think you should be you should just understand that we live in a world. That is supernatural

It's not just all cause and effect matter in motion We live in a very strange world at times and there's all kinds of things sometimes we can't explain and there's so many things beyond us and so There there's a very spiritual world out there.

A very real spiritual world Doesn't mean a demons behind every single bush. Just just half of them I don't know there they're behind a lot of them, but it doesn't mean a demons behind every bush and And I just want to say this to to my continuationist friends because I have many out there

You know some of you guys There's a spectrum here Some of you guys aren't that far away from me like you might say something like, you know

You're open to the gift being around of tongues, but you still believe in some biblical criteria. I don't see that as Practically speaking that different to be honest with you because and I have been in churches with people like this

I've actually been member of a church that had this theology and That particular church was not much different than the cessationist church.

I had been in so they were open to Speaking in tongues, but they had biblical criteria.

So it just never happened, right? so You know any other I didn't even mention this one, but the whole the idea of an interpreter

I don't know if I want to get into this now, but first Corinthians 14 that is one of the criteria like if you're gonna speak in a

Tongue that people don't understand if it's a human language that the people around you don't know There has to be an interpreter or else there's no communication.

So I that's another I guess grid you can put that through but but anyway, it's it's

There may not be like the Big big difference. I think MacArthur is right

John MacArthur that guys like John Piper do end up though, even though Even though they're like soft continuationist they can give a pass to guys who are more out there and and of course, that's the danger in any direction, but And I disagree with it, but I I think you know continuationists many of you are supporters of mine

I still think you're brothers and sisters in Christ It's not a something I want to fight over or anything like that The Word of Faith stuff though.

Yes. I think that's worth fighting over I just think there's other guys doing probably a better job than Than me and and it's not it's just not an interest of mine really

So I'm probably not gonna make too many more videos on it But I wanted my opinion to get out there so people knew exactly where I'm at at least right now on this topic and They're not speculating about it and And wondering

I I'm not as rigid as you get I guess on that spectrum, but I definitely Have my concerns and and I shared some of those if you haven't seen the video you can go back watch the interview

I did on Monday with Joel and with Andrew and I do share some of my personal concerns and it really for me it has come down more for me to the damage

I've seen the charismatic movement the effect it's had in people I know personally and It's a tendency.

It's again. This is experience. This is not what the Word of God says this is John Harris right and his experience, but I've just seen a

Lot of insecurity a lot of just emotional ups and downs

Either the minimization or the maximization of sin sometimes it's like You know you fail then you're in the dumps because so much is dependent on you

But but that's a scale, you know, and it's more the I would say the people who are more

You know deep deeper into the charismatic movement and in the Pentecostal denominations that more so have that So anyway, if you have

Any thoughts for me you want to critique what I just said and you think I got something wrong I would love to hear from you.

Just put a comment on the comment section of the video if you're watching on YouTube or rumble and I will get to it when

I get a chance and Lord willing and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.