Engaging Roman Catholics & A Shocking Admission

When the scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment, he replied, you shall love the

Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

So why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this? It had everything to do with how we talk about the

Bible. And specifically or along with that, what we point to as the foundation of faith, which for most

Christians, unfortunately, is the Bible. And face the work of building a life -giving,

God -honoring culture. Join us for four days at the Cultural Leadership Academy as we consider how the gospel influences all of life and culture and the role that we have to play in applying foundational

Christian thinking to every area of life. Non -rockabodas must stop.

I don't want to rock the boat, I want to sink it. Are you going to bark all day, little doggie?

Or are you going to bite? You're being delusional. Delusional? Yeah. Delusional is okay in your worldview.

I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

It doesn't really hurt. Is he hung up on me? Yes! What? What? What?

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle, Nick. That's a joke, pastor.

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

♪ Death and home is your journey ♪ ♪

That no one of you will be the same again ♪

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat of it and not die.

I'm the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.

That's John 6, everybody. Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world.

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And so, hey, important show today. Just want to encourage everybody to share this episode.

Lots of stuff going on. Also announcing to everybody that next week, next Thursday, I didn't even tell you guys

I was finally able to book it. Next Thursday, we're gonna have a live debate, brotherly discussion with a brother,

Samuel Say. He is gonna be on with me. We're gonna have a sit down together and talk about the issue of abolition, abolitionism.

And Samuel's a great brother in the Lord. He loves the Lord, we love him. And so he's all set to come next week to sit down with me.

He'll be via video, but we're gonna have a conversation and just engage the issue as brothers, the issue of abolitionism and what is the proper approach to this issue.

So that's Luke the Bear. What up? I'm Jeff the Calm of the Ninja, and that is Zachary Conover. What's up guys?

Director of Communications for EAN and Divorce Channel. Hey, welcome and let's get started.

So if you've been paying attention to us, our feed, or the last shows or even the news, national media, you know that all eyes have been on the state of Arizona the last couple of weeks.

And that's true because if, I'll update everybody if you didn't know, the

Arizona Supreme Court upheld, I just simply pointed to it, so it's about a law. You never repealed that.

Upheld 1864 law that criminalized abortion for the abortionist.

And there was another law, if you didn't know, that was right next to it.

And that was the law criminalizing the mother. And the pro -life establishment via Cathy Herod in the

Center for Arizona Policy already repealed that law and decriminalized it for the mother. But anyways, all eyes in Arizona because Arizona had this standing law in the books that criminalized it for the doctor.

Now, to start this discussion, we should announce that, and we did this last week, we had nothing to do with that bill.

We weren't even alive yet or a glimmer in our pappy's eyes. Did you say that because of the shirt you're wearing?

I did, pappy's. And so it's an old law and essentially the law made abortion a crime for the abortionist.

Now, we have a lot to say about the law. If it had been us, we would have made sure that it was a law that was consistent, that afforded equal protection under the law for every image bearer of God in the womb.

And we would have wanted, of course, just penalties for the taking of human life in the womb.

However, the big dispute over the last couple of weeks is over this law that's standing in Arizona.

And the Arizona House worked super, super hard to try to repeal that law to decriminalize abortion.

And that was done via pro -life legislators and politicians and Republicans, shockingly.

Now, there were, of course, people who opposed, decriminalizing abortion in the state of Arizona, but the winning votes that ultimately pushed it through to repeal that law on the books were from pro -life legislators.

And so it moved to the Senate. Yesterday, it was in the Arizona Senate. Same story. Same story, and found ways after legislative session to do all of this.

And so the big dispute yesterday was, are we going to decriminalize abortion, take that law off the books in the

Senate? And of course, the way things are in the world today, they were able to do it.

They were able to pull it off, once again, because the winning votes were by pro -life Republican legislators.

It's amazing when pro -life Republican legislators wanna get something going. They will. They'll work at it, right?

They'll make it happen. And so it's gonna go to Governor Katie Hobbs' desk and I wonder if she'll approve that.

I don't know, she's - Yeah, I wonder. Katie Hobbs. Katie Hobbs. Absolute, just grotesque - She's gonna revel in this moment.

Grotesque leftist in this state. So all that to say, that happened yesterday.

Now, it should be obvious to everybody who knows us, knows our theology, knows our methodology and our approach, that we have been approaching this over the last couple of weeks with the legislators specifically, calling them not only, and in the media, we've done a lot of news interviews as well, and in the media calling for actual equal protection.

We do not support this legislation in terms of that's just legislation, that's good, that's what we would have done as well.

But we do not believe that it would be right to say, let's go ahead and decriminalize it so somewhere down the road, we can get to equal protection.

What we're saying right now is in the midst of it, equal protection, abolition, but we think it'd be unwise to say, go ahead and decriminalize it so you can kill them all.

Because the law is already in the books and makes it a crime. We're saying, we need to update that law, and we've been advocating for that, talking to the legislators about that, and that's what we've been working on.

However, it's complex right now, right? You can't dispute the fact that it's a complex issue because it's unique to have a law, that's a standing law that's so far back that says that it's a crime for the abortionist.

And so what does an abolitionist do in a case like this? Do you say, well, that is actually partiality and it's not completely just, so let's go ahead and decriminalize it right now and then make our way someday down to abolition.

We're of a different opinion of that. We think that you should actually be prophetic in this moment and advocate for the abolition and equal protection, but you should also use this moment to expose the legislators like Bollock and others who aren't really consistent and don't really stand for the lives of the pre -born.

They want it decriminalized. And they don't want it decriminalized because they want a better, more just bill or a piece of legislation.

They want it decriminalized because they could care less about these kids. That's it. Because they don't wanna lose the election, literally. That's true.

And so it's a complex issue. And so we wanted to just address that at the front, but before we do,

I wanna play a clip for you. Pastor Luke was able to get this. So proud, so, so proud of the youth and the members of Apology at Church who showed up.

I wanna say thank you, thank you, thank you to the body of believers at Apology at Church for all of your work the last couple of weeks in standing up for the truth, using the word of God, showing up, and many of the members of Apology at Church took off work yesterday.

Yeah, there was more of us here than previous two weeks. Yeah, yeah. So I'm gonna just say, praise the Lord. Praise the

Lord for Apology at Church. Such godly, amazing believers among us.

It is such a humbling experience to be a pastor of a church of just such passionate and zealous and godly people and people who sacrifice so much.

And so we wanna say thank you to Apology at Church for showing up last couple of weeks, for going out and flyering to expose the inconsistencies of these politicians going to their neighborhoods and flyering their door and their neighbor's doors to expose what they're up to and what they really believe.

And so members of Apology at Church went and wanted to be there to have an opportunity to preach the gospel and to bring the word of God into this issue.

And so here was a moment Pastor Luke was able to capture that is a shocking admission for some.

Right. For some. Now this is threadbare for us now. We've heard this a thousand times. But this is the truth.

So when the establishment talks about victims and they don't know what they're doing and they're just oblivious and not guilty and victims themselves, all the rest.

Well, this is, we always squint at that because we're like, I don't think you really do a lot of engagement with these people.

So here's what they really believe. You know what I mean? So you believe in criminalized abortion and you made it illegal.

You have to save a whole year. I'm not gonna go and run across the street and say, wait a minute, you're pushing your baby into the street.

You wanna help the baby and you would hope that that mother is convicted of crime. So that's what exactly what this bill is doing is convicting crime for child murder.

She's smart enough to know that her baby's gonna get killed or hit, right? I mean, at the end of the day, right?

Well, she's the one doing it. She's the one killing the baby. I'd like to try to stop if that was your baby and somebody who thought it was your baby.

But you guys are talking hypotheticals. So are you though. But you're talking hypotheticals as well. As what?

As far as what? Like I've had nine kids and I've chosen not to have an abortion. But I'm still here having to have a choice for my children to have a choice.

And if they want an abortion, then I will back them up to their choice. You will back them to murder your grandchild?

Yes, ma 'am. And you're okay with that? Yes, I'm okay with that. Okay. Well, as long as you understand that that's the choice that you're giving them.

It's not, okay, but do you understand? With an informed decision. Do you understand that from our conviction?

With their beliefs, yes, ma 'am. I've taught them all this. Do you understand that that's why we're saying, we believe that a child is made in God's image from the moment of conception.

That's the only logical place to start it. And the Bible teaches us that and everything. And so we believe that it's a baby who has its own genetics, its own

DNA from the moment of conception. Yes, but if the doctor was to tell me that something is happening with my daughter inside, then it's her or her baby.

Well, so then that's what I'm saying. Then yes. That's not an abortion. Correct. Do you understand that it's not an abortion? I understand that.

And that's why I'm here. So you're advocating awareness, yes, and like I said, you know what

I mean? Well, there you go. So yep, it's murder. I know it. Yep, that's what they're advocating for.

Don't have a problem with it. That's the key. That's what you really have to engage with, right?

And so we say this a lot. We have a lot of criticisms for the establishment because they're not

Christian. They don't say another word of God. They're not about the gospel. They don't call it repentance. They won't make it murder in all cases in terms of equal protection.

And this is what you actually have to engage with. That's the position. And the only way to get somebody to stop loving death is to have them stop hating

God. Text says that those who hate me love death. And so she loves death because she hates

God. And so how do you transform that? Try to show her pictures of ultrasounds of beautiful little cute babies and ultrasounds.

She's already telling you, no, I think you ought to be able to murder it if you want to. And so that's not gonna help.

Or let her hear a heartbeat. She knows, yeah, heart is beating. I think you should kill it. I don't even care it's my grandkid.

You can kill that too. And then we have the choice and the right to do such a thing. And so that's really what you have to engage with. So as a church, that's how we have to approach it.

Approach it with the gospel. Approach it with a call to repentance. Approach it by seizing on the image of God in them and pointing them to their creator and making sure they understand that that's really where they're at.

Yeah, it's a suicidal ideology. You're talking about wanting to destroy your own children or making sure that your children are able to destroy their children, which is your discontinuance.

As a family line, your posterity ceases to exist.

It's quite literally suicidal. Yeah, I was just gonna say that. I mean, I feel like we just keep beating this drum over and over again, but like we have to because people aren't getting it.

They're not listening. And it's super frustrating when we're seeing all these pro -life industry leaders and politicians and legislators and go down the list saying, oh no, the women are all victims.

We shouldn't punish them. And then we're talking to people like this more times than not.

Yeah. And so that's why we're like, hey, if you're gonna say that, then you should come out to the abortion mill with us or you should be at these events like this and you talk to these people yourselves and see if you're gonna get the same thing that you've been saying.

At this point, it's like a brilliant man once said, how many times can a man turn his head and pretend he doesn't see?

Yes. Oh, I love that. I love that. There's certainly overwhelming evidence for the fact that it's not a knowledge problem.

It's a sin -loving, God -hating problem. Yeah, amen. That's from Bonson's talk on theonomy at that conference when

Moorcraft introduced him. Yeah. Woo, that was so powerful. So passionate. Yeah, that last two minutes was fire, absolute fire.

Oh, that's the one after he had just got fired, right? I don't know if it was after, recently, I don't know if it was recently, but yeah, for sure he was fired by then.

Yeah, I know which one, that's my favorite. Yeah, he is so passionate in that. That was like his most fire message in like every event.

He was fired, fired up, yeah. All right, so, all right, back just quickly, we're gonna go into a clip from a little bit of engagement

I had actually at the Capitol. I was surprised by this. I wasn't planning on being there to do this.

I wanted to be there to try to engage legislators and others and advocate for abolition and equal protection.

And then I ended up, because there's a lot of Roman Catholics there, in a conversation with a couple of Roman Catholics at the

Capitol. And so we're gonna play a little clip of it, I think we think would be helpful to the church to be able to engage on this issue, to make sure we share the gospel of God's grace and peace with our

Roman Catholic friends and family. But before we get to that, it'd be good for us to address a little bit more this complicated situation we have in Arizona where you have the law on the books that criminalizes it for the abortionist.

The law itself is not something that we would have put in. It's not something that we think is just in terms of penalty and all the rest.

But what does an abolitionist do when it is technically a crime in your state right now, already, for the abortionist to do a clinical or a medical abortion, what does an abolitionist do?

Does an abolitionist say, well, let's go ahead and repeal that law that criminalizes it for the abortionist.

And so we can make our way someday to equal protection or do you just use it as an opportunity to say, we need to update that law, make it just, make it consistent, which is what we've been saying.

And, or do we say, we want to use this as an opportunity to testify?

Do we also challenge legislators when they say, no, let's go ahead and decriminalize it and open it up. Do we challenge them and say, you're wicked and you're evil.

You shouldn't be trying to decriminalize abortions. So that's the point, the complex situation right now for the abolitionist, because the law is there.

It makes it a crime for the abortionist. And it makes it challenging in terms of thinking through this because we never want to compromise.

We don't want to do anything in terms of bills of partiality. We're working for equal protection and abolition, but it's a unique thing that Arizona is facing where it's a crime right now.

And so is the right approach to say, let's go ahead and decriminalize it because it's not completely consistent.

And then let's open it up now. Let's open more babies up right now. It's like, let's open the floodgates and let them all die right now.

And so it's unique. And I think every abolitionist in the country right now who's on the same page as us has to grant, let's slow down for a second.

This is a unique situation. It's a challenging one because we would of course want to update the law.

That's the goal. It wasn't our law. We had nothing to do with it. But do you say as an abolitionist, no, go ahead and decriminalize it.

Open the floodgates. Someday we'll get to equal protection. I think that's inconsistent with our position and our position about the preservation of human life.

And so just so everyone knows in terms of our methodology in this and what we've been saying, we've used this as an opportunity to advocate for equal protection the whole way through.

What were we preaching at the Capitol the last couple of weeks? Equal protection. What were we saying? Abolition.

What were we challenging? The inconsistency of this legislation and the law itself. And what were we saying to the legislators?

You need to be doing equal protection right now. We need to be doing abolition right now in the state of Arizona.

That's an important point because no abolitionist wants to lull the culture or the legislature into a false sense of security and apathy regarding the evil of abortion.

Like no one is on that side of wanting to do that and say, this is sufficient, so we're gonna support this.

Or even that the issue that was going on here in Arizona is, oh, a vote for this is supporting this.

I think that's fundamentally misunderstanding the issue. But none of us want to lull the public or lull the legislature into taking their foot off the gas with this, which is why, as Jeff said, the whole time we have been saying the same thing in terms of our message, holding up the standard of truth and saying, this is what

God requires of you. Whatever's on the books right now or not on the books, this is what

God's word says, and this is what you must do. This is your duty is to fulfill your obligation as a magistrate to protect innocent life, all of it, and make sure that justice is established for the fatherless.

And we have done that consistently in terms of a witness now for years, but in this particular moment that we find ourselves in in our state, we're not letting up the pressure one ounce.

If anything, it needs to go through the ceiling in terms of the compromise and the treachery from our

Senate, from Republicans in the House as well. They, the public needs to continually be made aware of this.

Yeah, and just to give just a historical kind of background context to this conversation for those that may not know,

Arizona had a law in 1864, they keep calling it the territorial ban because Arizona wasn't a state yet, as if that makes a difference whether it was -

It's an ancient law. So old. Just like that - Take women back to the slavery time. Just like that terrible slavery law that's so old.

So they keep saying, it's back to the time of slavery, yes. So anyways, you know, so it, obviously it's not a perfect law.

It's far from perfect. It is one of, it was one of the strictest in the nation.

The only exception was for the life of the mother. So it didn't even have an exception for rape or incest, which is most, any pro -life states don't really even have that.

So again, not a perfect law. Again, the penalty was two to five years jail time. Yeah, hogwash.

And the mother's exempt. Right, but that was like, it was one of the better laws in the

U .S. Okay, again, far from perfect, not our law, saving a lot of lives, okay?

And then the pro -life, or then I think it was in the 70s, right? Then they came and actually strengthened it then, because this law said only for those, the abortions essentially.

Then they strengthened it, added also for the mother. But thanks to Kathy Harrod and the pro -life industry, a couple of years ago, they then took out the criminalization of it for the mother, which is a whole nother issue.

Again, fighting against that, we've put in every year, tried to put in our own bills. Again, this year, we had our own equal protection bill in the

House and the Senate, which we had guys try to put through and were getting blocked and weren't allowed to run their bills.

They tried. By pro -lifers. By pro -lifers, okay. So that's where we're at. In this situation, now you have, what has essentially happened was, it was passed in the

House first, now in the Senate, they are repealing that law and allowing abortions up to 15 weeks, which 94,

I think it's 94 % of abortions happen before 15 weeks. So that's what's happening.

And the argument that we were seeing was that the pro -life legislators should try to insert an abolition bill or don't vote.

That was the argument we were seeing and we're going, whoa, wait a minute. So no vote then just says open the floodgates up and it's clearly gonna pass at that point.

It's like not even trying to stop that. And going back to Proverbs, that would be the opposite of rescuing the

House. If you have an opportunity to say, no, we're not allowing this, you should do that before God.

Otherwise you're saying, you know what? Then I think it becomes strategy. Then it becomes pragmatic because you're saying we're gonna pass this off till later.

Go ahead, do your thing. Murder babies up to 15 weeks. Kill them all. Kill them all until we can put our bill in.

So the point is, I think the point is, is it's a complex situation. Very complex. Where it's not our law.

We're not in agreement with the penology and all the rest. But the point is, how does a

Christian approach this in terms of the complicated nature of it that it's already on the books, not our law. We would want equal protection.

We were advocating for all of that. We put our bills in. House and Senate. There were abolition bills, equal protection.

That's what we've been advocating for weeks. But isn't the preservation of human life premier in a moment like this?

Where you have to say, okay, complicated. It's already there. I had nothing to do with it. I wouldn't have put that in.

But right now, the preservation of human life would say if we let them decriminalize it, it opens the floodgates to kill more people.

And if the reasoning we have is, well, let's go ahead and repeal it so that we can get down the road to equal protection.

Well, I'm saying, well, isn't the preservation of human life right now premier? If it's already being said by the state, it is a crime, don't do it.

Don't we want to preserve human life and say, yeah, it should be a crime. And we need to fix all of that.

But don't open the floodgates right now to just wholesale kill them all. So again, it's a complicated issue.

And here's the key issue when you hear abolitionists like us talking about this. It's not our bill. It's not our legislation.

It's got nothing to do with us or what we've done. We've been advocating in the midst of this whole controversy for equal protection and abolition and no compromise and using it as a springboard to do that.

But we're also using it to testify against the compromisers and the inconsistent and these pro -life establishment types to call out their hypocrisy.

And they're just really advocating for the destruction of the pre -born as pro -lifers, all the while trying to take your money to be the pro -life senator or representative.

So there you go. There's their situation. And here's the deal, ready? It doesn't matter now anymore because it's passed to repeal in the

House and the Senate. It's officially been decriminalized. And does it change our strategy in any way?

Not one bit. We advocated before, during, and we'll do it after for consistency, for no compromise.

We've advocated for equal protection, abolition. Nothing's changing with us. Bills of partiality are an abomination in God's eyes and that is our position and that's what we're gonna continue to fight against.

And so - And there's a ton of work still left to be done at this point, even from the prophetic standpoint, the political side of things.

It's not just submitting bills at this point. It's holding politicians accountable. It's speaking prophetically to the legislature, to the county commissioner, to the

DA. Everyone that won't do justice needs to hear from the word of the living God.

Yeah, and right now, Apology of Church, you can help us right now, please do. If you go to endabortionnow .com,

you can not only sign your church up so we can train you and equip you to save lives at the abortion mill. And by the way, it's gonna be the bloodiest and most brutal part of this

Holocaust, as I've been saying, very, very soon in states across the union. But you can pray for us, of course, and please give financially at endabortionnow .com

because we have a lot, a lot, a lot of fight ahead of us this year, multiple states, and in particular, the state of Arizona, because right now,

Arizona is one of the states with the ballot measure. And lo and behold, it is a humbling and in many ways, frightening place to be as a church.

The Lord is using us right now in this issue of the ballot measure in our state to try to make sure it doesn't happen.

And so please be in prayer for us and please help us financially to do that because the ballot, look, here's the deal. The ballot measures are gonna legalize abortion via state constitution from conception all the way to nine months.

That's where it's gonna be able to be done. That's what the culture wants. That's exactly what they want. And so we are, as I've been saying, not at the end of this fight, we are right in the middle, in the raging part of the battle.

And it's looking, it's not looking good. And so we have a lot of work to do, a lot of prophetic ministry to accomplish.

And so we need you to stand with us. Okay, onward, onward. Okay, so while we were, okay, so let this, okay, let's change pace now.

Okay, thank you all for staying with us through all that horrible discussion. I can't wait for the day where God establishes justice and we never talk about this again, except to praise

God for justice. So last week, I went to, we went to the

Capitol and last week while I was there, I saw them bringing in a table and this big heavy statue of Mary, not very big, but big heavy statue.

And so last week they set it up and put it there and no one's really having anything to do with it much, except people are standing around it and kind of staring at it.

But yesterday they brought the same statue in and the table and they put this idol up on the table and then, you were standing next to me when they started praying, weren't you?

Yes. Then - I heard it start. Next thing you know, we hear them like, you know, Hail Mary, full of grace.

And I'm like, oh wait, what's going on? And there was a lot of people surrounding this idol and they're all praying to this statue of Mary and -

It was inescapably prayer and worship, like there's no two ways around what was transpiring.

Yeah, they were all positioned, facing it, like you said, the center of gravity was the idol.

Yeah, what has the weight in that moment? Are all turned and facing it. They're all, you know, praying that prayer to Mary and with the statue of Mary right in front of them.

So I filmed some of it. Just wanted to have a record of it when

Roman Catholics say, no, we don't pray to Mary. We're not worshiping statues. Holy Mary mother of God, praise her as soon as you mount her cow again.

Holy Mary mother of God, praise her as soon as you mount her cow again. Holy Mary mother of God, praise her as soon as you mount her cow again.

As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be... So, context.

There's the context. So after that, I walked back over to the team and we are just talking to each other about Yeah, that's not worship

We don't pray to Mary. We're not we're not doing that just thinking man How sad? to have there is one

God and one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus and To cut yourselves off from this perfect mediation of the

Savior Who can make us right before a holy God and then go through a creature

Yeah, and then to be praying to this statue this but I was just thinking we're relying on a creature to carry our prayers to The throne room right itself.

Yeah, and we were talking to and we were just you know We were just talking amongst ourselves saying

You know God has something specific to say about this in the book of Isaiah Like he mocks people that build idols out of the things that he's actually created and they put it up on the stand and there

It sits. Yeah, it doesn't move. It can't talk doesn't talk tell the future, right? Yeah, it doesn't control the future controls nothing can't see talk hear nothing

It's this object that was put together By a creature through things that God himself actually made and we do that We put it up on the stand and we stare at it.

We bow down to it. We pray to it and so that's what we were talking about and then this gentleman comes over and He says he could tell we were you know,

I think a little bit or being that quiet We were a little bit Christian miffed about what was happening Little bit provoked.

It was a little bit Christian miffing going on and and yeah, we were a little bit provoked and and He comes over.

He says do you you guys have any questions? And we asked me that and I said no, no,

I don't have any questions I know what it is And I said it was just commenting on the idolatry and the false worship and he was like this isn't idolatry.

I said Well, I have all these people here praying to this statue and he was like, they're not they're not worshiping this statue and so I just Everybody like looked around at each other like are we all in the same environment right now the same scene setting is is that in front?

Of us right now. So I just looked over and I just pointed my hand over to this I said everybody over here is

Facing this statue that they carried in and sat on a table Everybody is facing this statue and everybody is praying to Mary and they're all facing the statue

And so that started a conversation with this gentleman the full Well Carmen, unfortunately was in the in the bathroom

Nice job Carmen Carmen You gotta get you got to give him some grace

I want to give him some grace because he was actually there earlier than me And so he had been there for a while and he's spent, you know

Two weeks going out to the capital of film stuff. And so he showed up sort of Five minutes ten minutes into the conversation

Anyway, the entire conversation that I had with him that was filmed is is up here on Apologia Studios right now

Encourage you to check it out after this. We're gonna play some clips of it here for you there was a conversation with this gentleman and a conversation with a really sweet and just a really amazing young man who's

Roman Catholic and his mom and So there was a number of people that witnessed the conversation were there. So it's good conversation

I hope it's a blessing to all of you and Wanted to play a clip of it because I think it's it's a really important part of the conversation

This is the part of the conversation. We want a couple play He was throwing kind of a lot of questions at me Just keep kind of changing different topics question and so I was trying to you know, deal with everyone that I could and At this point of the conversation this about was 15 minutes into the conversation he he kind of just leaps right into the discussion about Jesus and His his his his flesh and his blood from John 6

And so I think this would be a really good part of the conversation to listen to This chapter 6 yes, you eat my flesh and drink my blood.

Yeah No life no life in you. Yeah, right. Mm -hmm And then all of all of the

Apostles that were there well many of the disciples left Well, first of all, they said this teaching is too hard too hard too hard So yeah,

I didn't say well, I was just kidding. I was using as a metaphor. He said, oh wait, you know I see where you're saying

You're okay You're suggesting that when

Jesus says eat my flesh and drink my blood he was talking about Transubstantiation and the

Last Supper Well, hold on. Can I can I ask you though? Sure. Sure. Yes, sir

So the Jews blood is sacred to the Jews Right, and when well in what in what way has to be kosher can't have no blood because you would

Is what the Jews believed conveyed the spirit of whatever it was So if you ate the blood the light the life is in the blood, right?

That's what scripture says you ate the blood of an animal They believed that you were taking that blood that spirit into you the blood

Hmm, you were taking the spirit of the animal into you by having their blood Jesus specifically says unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you

Because what he was trying to say is I want you to take my spirit within you and that was where is this in the tax

Where is this in the tax on? Chapter six. No, you just suggested that Jesus was saying

I want you to take my spirit into you by drinking my blood and I'm asking where the Bible teaches that where Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life

I know that the text says that but you suggested that Jesus was saying you'll take my spirit in you by drinking my blood and Because all the

Jews knew that if you have blood you're taking the spirit of whatever it is

Well, the Jews didn't believe that animals had spirits, sir So that that's hard to think that they would have thought that but scripture doesn't teach that Well, there's there's a number of reasons why they have kosher laws has to do with dietary restrictions the the holiness code and those

Those things Well, can I all respond? I'll respond. So first of all when

Jesus is speaking in John 6 that is Earlier in the ministry than was even presented the

Last Supper or what God does in communion Right, and if you read John chapter 6

Jesus actually defines what he's talking about when they say it's hard What he's saying is hard He says that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood are those who believe in him and come to him

So, can I point something out to you? I'm gonna point something out to you in the text in John 6

He says to a crowd before they even understand what communion is or what the

Eucharist is They don't even have any that's never it's not been presented to them yet Right, but in terms of what you're where you're trying to make a connection between Transubstantiation and the

Eucharist and John 6 Jesus says to that crowd at that time He says eat my flesh and drink my blood or you'll have no life in you and they think that's hard But then he tells them he says that eating his flesh and drinking his blood is coming to him and believing in him

So, can I ask you a question? Let's let's let me certainly I'd let you talk a lot I mean, there's one question. Did he allow his disciples to walk away?

Well, there's a number of times he did that but real real fast, let me just Let me finish the thought let me just sir if I could just I'll answer

I'll answer that after I finish it and then answering what you said Peter and the boys and said what about you?

Sir sir, let me just finish before I answer the next question Right, so I'm gonna

I'm gonna finish answering the first question before I get to that one So in that moment on that day early on in the ministry of Jesus the

Eucharist hasn't been presented yet They don't have any concept of it yet. They have not had the Last Supper There's crowds of people and he says if you eat his flesh and drink his blood that you would have eternal life

They're thinking it's hard and he says he says to them that eating his flesh and drinking his blood is coming to him and Believing in him

So the question to be asked is if according to Jesus eating his flesh and drinking his blood is believing in him and coming to Him then that day if anybody believed in him

Did they eat his flesh and drink his blood and the answer is yes According to Jesus nothing to do with the

Eucharist Well, that's what the text says so in important conversation this whole conversation starts well,

I'm sorry, I shouldn't say starts it gets to the point of What do you believe is accomplished in the atonement?

Right? Yeah, so I challenge him as a Roman Catholic that Rome has

Changed the glory of the atonement and what is accomplished in the atonement The writer of Hebrews says that through one offering he perfects forever those who draw near to God through him and it's a once -for -all he died once for all and So when could hold this together now

Okay the scriptures talk about the atonement as something that is able to Able to perfect forever those who draw near to God through him and then it's a once -for -all sacrifice

Okay now what Rome does in the mass is they believe that what takes place in the mass is a is a presentation of that once -for -all sacrifice and you are it's it's this this presentation of what took place on the cross and You as a

Roman Catholic go now You've got sins as a Roman Catholic that you have to deal with and that you maybe even have to spend time in purgatory

You know dealing with and there's all kinds of issues of satispassio and other things But here's the point according to the

Roman Catholic and I bring this up to this gentleman You know, you went to mass on Sunday.

He says he went on Sunday And so there's a cleansing that took place on Sunday But here we are on Wednesday and I said have you committed any venial sins on Sunday?

He says well, yes, and I said so you still have now sins to be accountable for God. And so that atonement that mass

That presentation that happened there did not perfect you It needs to be you need to represent it again and again and again

And so if you if you miss the mass Then you're gonna miss that opportunity to have those sins cleansed and then you could die in that state

You've got to deal with those sins And so I was pointing out that the atonement of Christ is a perfect atonement

That perfects forever those who draw near to God through him and it's a once -for -all sacrifice Jesus sat down It's not it this will make some so much better than all those other priests in the past where they don't sit down They are constantly repeating the sacrifices.

It is a repetitive sacrifice Whereas Jesus sacrifice in atonement is once for all he sits down It's able to perfect forever those who draw near to God through him and Jesus says it is finished and what

I was pointing out is that Rome has so distorted the meaning of all of the the atonement and The Eucharist and all the rest that it it perfects nobody

It perfects nobody ultimately and you don't have peace with God and when he was saying no, I do have peace with God I was like, are you gonna go to purgatory?

He said well, you know, probably yes What for is it for for sin like that?

You have to deal with and the other Roman Catholic sweet Roman Catholic Roman Catholic lady said well like well justice still has to be

Satisfied. It's like that's the point. That's the point the sufficiency of the work of Jesus There you go.

Justice was satisfied at the cross. And so I said, so wait a second. So you're saying that Jesus satisfies the justice of God for your sins, but you also have to satisfy have it satisfied as well

And so that's what purgatory is about. That's what she said, of course, you know, she doesn't represent, you know Rome and the papacy and everything, but that's how she understands as a

Roman Catholic And so I was challenging him that you don't have peace with God Because you still have sins that you have to be accountable for that You need to be purified these things need to be purged and all the rest

And so the atonement that you believe in is not the atonement that Bible says actually took place

The gospel is so much better than that. And then so that's where we went with that. So then moving into this discussion the conversation then went into he's trying to talk about transubstantiation and The eating of the body and blood of Jesus and what

I was pointing out and this is key This is so so so critical because it's interesting.

It's not the only time I've seen this I've seen sharp guys use the same argumentation like unfortunately Hank Hanegraaff The who used to be the

Bible Answer Man and when he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, I heard him Not long after he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy where he was using this same

Terrible argumentation to advocate for what he believed about the Eucharist and he was going to John 6 to try to connect the

Eucharist in the Last Supper and it should be obvious to all of us. Where's John 6 in the ministry of Jesus?

long before the Eucharist long before the Last Supper and so my point here and this is critical is that Jesus does

Make it synonymous in the text Synonymous eating his flesh and drinking his blood eternal life

Believing in him eternal life. He makes him the same and I'm gonna read the text to you right here

He says in John chapter 6 I'm gonna read from 41. Okay. Well, no

I'll come down. So that's a lot. Okay, here go 47 Truly truly I say to you whoever believes has eternal life.

That's in 47. Okay And So I even think

I even think earlier than that I hate doing this on my phone guys, that's that's the challenge for me All right.

Here we go. I Left my Bible at home guys, don't don't condemn me

Okay, so I'll do 41 so the Jews grumbled about him because he said I'm the bread that came down from heaven They said is not this

Jesus the son of Joseph whose father and mother we know How does he now say I've come down from heaven Jesus answered them do not grumble among yourselves

No one can come to me unless father sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day It is written the prophets and they will all be taught by God Everyone who has heard and learned from the father comes to me

Not that anyone has seen the father except he who is from God. He has seen the father truly truly I say to you

Whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life Your father's ate the man in the wilderness and they died

This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat of it and not die I am the living bread that came down from heaven if anyone eats of this bread

He will live forever and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh The Jews then disputed among themselves saying how can this man give us his flesh to eat?

So Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you whoever feeds

On my flesh and drinks. My blood has eternal life and I will raise him up in the last day That's what 54 but you already heard him say

Before that and verse 47 truly truly I say to you whoever believes has eternal life.

So believing in Christ Have eternal life eating his flesh and drinking his blood

Eternal life again, when does this take place in the ministry and life of Jesus?

long before Last Supper and Long before the Eucharist and that whole thing was even given to them and explained to them so my point was is this day when

Jesus had this discourse if Somebody had said wow,

I believe in Jesus Did they eat his flesh and drink his blood? Yeah.

Yes. Did they have eternal life? Yes, and that was before the Eucharist was given right see the point

And so when you look at the text, it's not saying what Rome tries to make it say it's not even

Exegetically possible to make that leap because this is John 6 It's a completely different context of the

Last Supper and what takes place in communion And so this is often used however by Roman Catholics because there's the terminology of eating my flesh and drinking my blood and so they try to make the connection there and oh, this is transubstantiation and it's actually the physical body of Jesus like through Transubstantiation and so but if you read the text

Jesus is equating believing him in eternal life with eating his flesh and drinking his blood And he even uses this example from the

Old Testament with the manna and the wilderness, right? The bread come down from heaven. Yeah. Well, that was symbolic wasn't it?

The bread come down from heaven is actually Jesus And so the hope he's he's already

Jesus is already pointing to the symbolism that God has Embedded in this redemptive story that points to Jesus.

And so why would we take it then and turn it into something like transubstantiation? I think that day people who believed in Jesus right in that moment when he gave the discourse

They had eternal life and had eaten his flesh and drink and drink his blood it's also not the first time we're seeing in the

Gospels the identification of Bread with the word right and Jesus himself being the living word

So Matthew says man shall not live by bread alone But by every word that comes from the mouth of God and according to Jesus He's the living manna that came down from heaven to truly satisfy us so that we would never hunger and never thirst that's right, and that is a reality that is commemorated in the act of taking of the elements into ourselves in the same way that Baptism is a rehearsal of that Transformation that's taken place.

It's a picture of our death and resurrection with the Lord Jesus, but it's a picture

It's a symbol right commemorating that union with Christ. So interesting comment that just came in here.

I'll address it This is classic classic Protestantism Just disregard what

Jesus said because he said this other thing somewhere else. I Respectfully, I don't think you listen to a word that was just said

I was in John 6 reading John 6 And I was pointing to the context of John 6

I even pointed to the time of John 6 and when this was in relation to the Eucharist and I read from John 6 in the same discourse just not many verses apart from one another where Jesus on the one hand says those who believe in him

Have eternal life and those who eat his flesh and drink his blood have eternal life So he equates the two Believing in him is what brings you to eternal life believing in him is eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

So it is interesting when when people will hear But not understand what's being said and make charges like this that demonstrate that you're not really paying attention

I was I was just in John 6 and explaining the text from its own context and and Making the point that this before Jesus gave

The Last Supper and presented the elements and said this is my body This is my blood and so we were in John 6 just now.

I don't mean that's a really important point is reading the text sequentially and allowing

John to speak Not going to one event and then reading that back into what comes prior

You know what? This reminds me of it reminds me of those that have Objected to Calvinism by saying well look at Jesus is teaching about the vine and the branches

Right, you can be lost because look the the branches are removed from the vine But what you know that text isn't saying is that people can lose their salvation once Christ has saved them

Why well because what's come before and John he gives them eternal life eternal life, right?

Yeah, none that the Father has given to him will be lost. So, you know what the text isn't saying right is that True believers can be lost as Jesus There's a promise because John has an argument before we get to that point right that you need to read first, right?

Exactly one and the whole idea of You know receiving the spirit when you eat of the of Christ's body and drink of his blood

That idea comes from a Jewish superstition, right? Like he's like, well, that's what the

Jews believe So therefore and it's like well That's He asked like well, why did they do that?

I'm like well because Jesus or not Jesus because God said to to not eat the blood to separate them

Right to make them holy before the other nations and I'm not an expert on but I think it was because the pagan nations were drinking blood as a as a pagan ritual

Oh for sure, and so but yeah, but I mean just that whole idea It just comes from a Jewish superstition is not from not from the scriptures at all.

Well, I would say the biblical The biblical text would give you a different a different perspective in terms of the beasts and the animals and whether they have spirits

All the rest and and so it is interesting that that concept he was trying to yeah But I think the main point there is is what is forced into the text

Is something from outside of it now as Protestants as those who hold us all the script

Torah and total script Torah We want to let the text do the talking and yield to what the text says

What is the what's the text teaching me? Not what do you have as some preconceived notion and idea or system?

You want me to believe so when he says well what Jesus he said what Jesus is was trying to say

I don't think Jesus tries to say anything Let me fill in the gaps for Jesus here what he was trying

Well, let me help Jesus out here what he was trying to say was it's like no No what you're saying this is ice of Jesus as I have a

Have a concept over here system over here and I want Jesus to be saying that and so he tries to say what Jesus is

Trying to say here is that if you drink his blood you would receive his spirit into you and that's why I said to him

Where is that in the text? Where where's any of that in the text? He's what's John 6 where?

Well, you know, that's that's what's trying to be communicated It's like well, no Let's let's let the text do the talking and if you let the text do the talking you get the time, right?

When was this in relation to the Eucharist long before and if you if you listen to the text Jesus equates believing in him as Giving you eternal life and eating his flesh and drinking his blood as giving eternal life

So if I believe in Jesus, I have eternal life. Therefore if I believe in Jesus I have received his body and blood his flesh and his blood and that's what

John 6 says and like I said, you have to challenge yourself on this point on That day

Jesus makes a promise. Let's say it was a Monday All right Let's pretend for a minute that the that the

Last Supper was on Friday and on Monday Jesus says if you believe in me you have eternal life again equated with eating his flesh drinking his blood have eternal life on Monday if somebody said

I believe Did they have eternal life? Did they eat his flesh and drink his blood?

Well, if you read John 6 on Monday they did and It's not even Friday yet. Do you get the point?

It hasn't even happened yet But according to Jesus in John 6 in the text they have and they had eternal life and that's the point and I think that's very very important and you know, there's there's a lot of great areas of dispute between us and our

Roman Catholic friends and You know Roman Catholics can can, you know be formidable debaters and and super sharp and I respect so many of them

But I think this argument is extremely bad and the text just says something completely different and so We are going to Do a quick after show at Apologia Studios .com

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You got yours on right on Yeah, I got mine coming I think tomorrow so you can go there and type in APOLOGIA in all caps into the coupon code and I can't wait till my kit comes again tomorrow and Luke Real quick before I get into those because there's a

Catholic man in here arguing with us about The spirit and the blood so this is and this is what you were trying to make.

This is the point you're trying I'll just make this quick because he just he's like it said Leviticus 1711. Just look it up What it says is for the life of the flesh is in the blood

It says nothing about the spirit of the animal the spirit of being in the blood and that was the point you were trying to But that's why

I even I even quoted you did. Yeah, I said the life is in the blood That's from Leviticus. So to our Catholic friends that are watching this

You look up the verse and read it doesn't say anything about the spirit of the animal being in the blood It's about the life being in the blood and clearly without blood

You don't have life and it has to do with atonement. It has to do with sacrifices And so anyways,

I just want to mention that real quick because I don't want any propaganda going in in our live chat So, yeah, you know who

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So everybody got a little super chat here. Thank you reform Mike If all our sins are covered past present and future

Why do we need to still repent for new sins and be forgiven if they are already paid for first John 1 9?

How do we understand this in light of Roman Catholicism? Okay, great question reform Mike scripture teaches

Jesus says in John 5 24 He says truly truly I say to you he who hears my voice and believes him who sent me has eternal life

You do not come into judgment You passed out of death and into life scripture teaches in Romans chapter 8 as Paul moves his way through an explanation of the gospel

He says therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus The Bible teaches very clearly and plainly that the cross of Jesus Christ is a finished work

It's able to perfect forever to draw forever those who draw near to God through him So all those together go read those texts read them in context go and and read those sections and passages

I'm sure you already know this reform Mike Because you're called reform Mike But why do we still need to repent for new sins?

and I think the answer should be clear and obvious to all of us if we are redeemed if we are saved people if our

Sins have been taken away if God does no longer condemn us and if we call God father, then we walk with him in truth and John even makes the point if you say you have no sin, you're a liar

And the truth is not in you and so we're taught by the Apostles to walk up rightly and honestly with our father meaning

Now we even have the Spirit of God within us convicting us showing us our sin that God has dealt with it is finished

So we walk with our father as a child of God confessing our sin Rejoicing being honest with God again having integrity being upright confessing and when

God convicts us We confess us in we put it to death and we grow and we heal and we're sanctified But all those sins are dealt with in it is finished

The ones for all sacrifice and so I think it's clear from Scripture that Christians are called to walk Honestly with their father confess their sin put their sin behind them put their sin to death

We walk with God and that's how we're sanctified and the scriptures are really clear that the blood of Christ goes on Cleansing us from sin.

And so I hope that helps reform like I'm sure we could do more But we're at the end of the show here any more super chats doesn't look like we do

I'll just say one other quick thing H J Evan Bible says thou shall not murder not thou shall not kill

Yeah, and Jesus said to sell their cloaks and buy a sword just just for the record. Amen. Amen All right everybody so thank you all for watching meet us over at the after show for a quick after show

Thankful for all of you guys. Thank you for watching Supporting go to end abortion now calm, please and give there for the fight that we have ahead of us to Bring the issue of abolition before legislatures across the country.

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