Covenant Theology pt3- Laborers' Podcast

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Welcome, welcome. Welcome to the laborers podcast. We are thankful that you are with us tonight

We are going to be discussing this is gonna be part three of covenant theology looking at some of the different perspectives and the different outworkings of covenant theology from those different perspectives

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Welcome back. The comment line is open. Let us know that you're watching ask a question. We'll try to answer it gentlemen

How you doing? Doing good Blessing Holly favorite I am so glad to be back with all of you tonight

Let's jump into the conversation I'm thankful for those who were able to fill in for me while I was not able to be here

I'm thankful for your faithfulness and your service to the Lord and to your commitment to the

Laborers podcast and through the love Network. I love and appreciate you guys so covenant the ology

Presbyterian Reformed Baptist New Covenant theology I Know not everybody is represented here.

So we don't want to Misrepresent but we can represent for the best of our ability and we can

Yet share share our views and what knowledge we have the of these different applications and outworkings of covenant theology

So I think we're on question number six a really big one when it comes to covenant theology

Let let me read the question and then you guys can jump in and and don't be afraid if Not everybody's represented here

So if you want to you guys want to chime in and kind of fill in the gaps and the blanks for those other

Perspectives, please do so. So question six is what are the differing views on baptism and its connection to covenant theology and Presbyterian Reformed Baptist and New Covenant theology

Who's going first? Our deep do you want to start with that one since you're kind of the lone wolf here?

Sure, okay, I will preface this by saying that I am definitely not the expert on Pedo -baptism.

I'm I'm not a confrontational type I'm not much of an apologist for infant baptism and the like but I will

I will do my best and The bare -bones I think of the difference between What we call credo baptism and pedo -baptism when we get into the covenants and all that Because we are coming from very similar places.

We're talking about the Covenant of Grace. We're talking about the faithfulness of God Now we have a lot of the same starting points then where the bulk of the difference comes in is

With the relationship between the family in the Old Covenant versus the New Covenant Because Isaac was circumcised as As an infant and that was a sign of God's covenants part of part of a sign

Then that was a sign of part of what was going on with God's covenant with Abraham That it was that his faithfulness was being sustained through generations

Even though Isaac did not make a profession of faith when he was a baby. He was counted as being under that covenantal

Blessing if you will And where I would I would be really careful about saying in the covenant versus under the covenant, but that's that's just me

But with the New Covenant where we differ is on whether or not that idea Continues that those blessings are sustained through families

So with a more Presbyterian background they do contend for Baptism as the covenant sign of the

New Covenant being administered to the infants of believers Not indicating that they are saved

But that they are being brought up in a home that is under the covenant They are in a

Christian home that has the gospel in it and that the promises of God in some sense

Benefit them in the hopes that someday God will call them to himself Yeah, if I could chime in just on the tail end of that I'll kind of I'll play the

Presbyterian for tonight The understanding that God's covenant is not

It's not individualistic. All right in the Old Testament. God never made covenants with one man alone

But his that man's children and entire household, so we're talking wives

Slaves were all understood to be Partied to that covenant if God if when

God came to Abraham He didn't Abraham didn't circumcise himself, but he circumcised every male in his household and that that was the default understanding from the beginning of God's explicit covenant dealings with men and The Presbyterian viewer or the kind of broader

Pato Baptist view Would be that that understanding is continued in the new covenant. Is that fair to say

Tyler? I Would think so. I think that was probably more eloquent than what I had stated. But yeah, no you did fine

You did fine. I just wanted to I just wanted to make that that one point explicit Let me apologize to you

Tyler I know we talked about this before we went on and it slipped my mind to put you in front and center

When you had the mic there, let me ask you and you know, I'm not gonna be mad about you

Put him not putting me in the spotlight Let me ask you this question, um so I kind of see the

Presbyterians on one end of the spectrum maybe new covenant theology on the other end and reform

Baptist may be more in the middle and do you think the difference is the

The the Presbyterian see more of a continuity between old and new where the new new covenant theology sees less continuity between the old and the new and that's why they

They lean more towards Pato baptism. I Think that might be fair kind of like the phases of the moon

I think one way of looking at it might be just how much of the moon is covered because you've got the dark side and the light side and So I think with a more traditional

Presbyterian view of the covenants, there's a bit more overlap Like something closer.

I wouldn't say a full moon, but maybe like a three -quarters Because there are things that are done. I would say in Presbyterian Covenant theology and we're not still stoning people.

So there there is a component to where things did end But there's a certain degree of overlap and how much overlap depends on these different views

I think Yeah, I think It's really about Continuity versus discontinuity, right?

Covenant theology everybody agrees, right whether New covenant theology reform Baptist Presbyterian, whatever it might be.

We all agree There's a certain amount of discontinuity and a certain amount of continuity between the

Old Covenant in the Old Testament and the New Testament The debate really isn't is there continuity discontinuity?

We would all agree there is the different the debate is on how much of it there is I? Personally kind of fall into like this weird

Mostly reformed Baptist, but I'm somewhere between reformed Baptist and Presbyterian believe it or not

Every reformed Baptist somewhere between the Baptist and the Presbyterian. Well, I said between a reformed

Baptist and a Presbyterian Because while I don't believe that the children of believers are in the

New Covenant, whereas a Presbyterian would say they are they are in the

New Covenant Therefore that's why they they baptize them They put the sign of the Covenant on those their infants be there in the

New Covenant I don't believe that but I would at children of believers do partake of certain

Advantages blessings if you will for the sake of their parents, so when you read in Acts 2 39 the promises to you and to your children

I You know Presbyterians point to that one a lot That's strange.

I thought I heard My hearing a printer or something. Yeah, you heard something.

Go ahead While while Presbyterians They would point to that text and acts.

I think it's acts 239 X 238 238 excuse me, where it says repent be baptized and The promises to you and to your children as many as the

Lord will call all those who will far off Might be misquoting it, but you kind of get the idea They would say so you see the promises to us and to our children therefore just as we are in the covenant

So too sure. I'll show our children be in the covenant, too. I would say well the prom Continues right like as many as the

Lord will call to himself As many as he will call right or as many as far off are far off.

Excuse me So I have no problem with reading that and saying that doesn't automatically mean that children are in the covenant

But I would say There is something to be said about the fact that the promise is to us and to our children, right?

So I would say That when

Ordinarily right not in every circumstance and I'm not gonna go into this too much because I know it's derails from the conversation

But what I would say is that ordinarily when parents are faithful The Lord works on their children's hearts so that they would be saved not in not without exception not in every circumstance but I think that there is a covenant blessing of faithfulness and a covenant curse of unfaithfulness, so if if a

Parent if I as a parent never teach my children to gospel if I never teach them the Word of God If I never am faithful to God in those things then it's more likely that my children will not be saved from a human standpoint obviously, you know

With the exception being big John here. Everybody else here is Calvinistic And so we agree that the

Lord will save whom he will right, but I would say that because God works through ordinary means and one of the promises of The New Covenant is the promises to you and to your children as many as the

Lord will call to himself So on and so forth. I do believe that through our faithfulness ordinarily the

Lord will save children Children of believers not in every circumstance not in every period of time even

I would say we live in a particularly dark time right now with the Forces of Satan if you will are really working towards taking away the children from from believers

But I would say I think this also Steeps a little bit into my eschatology

And so that's a later question. So yes, so I'm gonna hold off on that for now But all of this to say that there is some

Blending of both sides right or even three sides. I think New Covenant theology is something else entirely

I think they would say there's even more discontinuity even though at the end of the day

Reformed Baptist and New Covenant theology times probably would be Baptist as well. So credo

Baptist But yeah, essentially that's that's really what it comes down to do we baptize our children or?

Do we just just as they were circumcised in the Old Testament? Or is there something different to this

New Covenant as a reformed Baptist? I would say there is something different in this

New Covenant It's that it's not the children according to the flesh but children according to promise

Who are the sons of God who are the ones that are to be baptized to apply to have the covenant sign applied to them?

So hopefully that I know I rambled but so I don't know much about the the topic But I so as I was listening to y 'all discuss it,

I think for So I suppose that I would fall into the latter of them the

New Covenant Theology, is that right? Brother Rob? It's possible.

Yeah depends on how you see things. So I don't know that I have see a discontinuity at all for starters the circumcision as Tyler was talking about Was something that separated

Abraham and his children from the rest of the world it was something that was that made them that set them apart and I Guess made them they were signifying that they were followers of the one true

God By adhering to this to the circumcision, but in a sense The the way it's why

I treated When you get to Genesis 12 3 and I'll bless those who bless you and the one who curses you

I will curse this is God talking to Abram and To all the families of the earth will be blessed now if if we're looking at it in a sense of what is the

I suppose the the intent behind the covenant that he's making

Not only is Abraham and to his children to be blessed But the whole earth is going to be blessed and and and we would understand how the whole earth is to be blessed

And that's obviously because through the seed of Abraham is going to come a savior of the world Gonna come the

Savior not a savior. Let me go and eat that right the Savior of the world the But then later on during this

Savior's ministry we hear early testimony by a prophet in the wilderness who tells the children of Abraham You don't tell me that you have

Abraham to be the reason you're blessed God can raise up these were children of Abraham out of these very rocks

So yeah, I think that if we're talking about what is the the real meat and taters of the of the

Covenant? it's it's found solely in the personal work of Christ and the intention of the

Covenant was for to bring about the salvation of the world and and and doing so I think that the

Reading the Old Testament With the understanding that comes from the Holy Spirit living inside of it says we're reading the word is how we

Understand the intents and the and the purposes behind even the things that were given in the very earliest portions of Scripture And and and I haven't given zero time to think about it because I'm a terrible at planning for these things

I think about the wine skins in Mark 2 and 22 maybe if somebody's got that pulled up maybe

I'm wrong. Maybe I'm right Jesus is referring to how the the old wine skins

Or for holding the old one and people preferred the old one But you couldn't put new wine into the new and the old one skins that would burst

Just like you couldn't put an unshrunk garment on to an older Shrunken garment without the the tear being worse that you can't you can't mix the two

Because they're not Diametrically opposed to one another but because the hindrances of the older one can't be contained in the newer one right

Is that I don't know? I don't know if I got ahead the questions just so you know big

John I think you're you're using argumentation. That sounds like It could be reformed

Baptist covenant theology or I I don't want it's getting closer

He's getting closer to 16 a non federalism, but here's here's the thing I don't know and I want to be fair to somebody who might hold new covenant theology

Is there really a difference in how they understand who belongs in the new covenant?

I think Probably not. I think Reformed Baptist might be a little bit more comfortable with saying you know

Baptism replaces Circumcision, but it's not applied in the exact same way because the nature of the new covenant is different Whereas I think somebody from new covenant theology would say no, it's not just like it replaces circumcision

It's just something altogether different like there's no connection between the two I could be wrong and I would say you're right on that because it's if if I didn't use bad

I didn't use baptism at all when I was explaining that so much as I was talking about The mark of circumcision being the thing that set apart the

Israelites from everyone else Right in so much so that they called some the circumcision and those of non circumcision right or the uncircumcised

They referred to themselves in those terms to differentiate themselves from unbelievers

Throughout all of Scripture and Paul would tell us later on that the circumcision that mattered was of the heart in the first place

Right, right and and the out yes, we would agree with that as reformed sure

So I in I don't see as where you can bring the concept of the circumcision in any way shape or form as being a

Definitive grafting in of your children into the relationship you have with God this in the same way that I Think I hear the

Presbyterians speaking about it because according to Paul That outward that outward marking isn't

What made any difference at all so much as it was the heart behind who done it the reason that you did it and if I were going to use baptisms

And I would never use baptism and circumcision as being anything that are analogous in one way or another to one another even though we do baptize people as an outward sign of An inward change is what it was.

I was raised to be taught. I don't know that I Don't know that somebody who saw you four days after you got baptized will be able to look at you and tell that you had

Been baptized, but if you've been circumcised four days later, they could tell you get what I'm saying Yeah, I would say that the baptism and the public confession are eerily synonymous with one another whereas a

Circumcision is far more than an hour sign of circumcision I think would be something more akin to live in a holy life a life.

That is according to Paul a living sacrifice and reasonable for service

Yeah, I think I Think that we've kind of been tiptoeing around the conversation on baptism only because we've been having an internet work

Discussion on baptism amongst brothers when it when it comes to the differences between Presbyterian ism

Anglicanism reformed Baptist and and other perspectives Unfortunately, not all of us were are here tonight

Yeah, they weren't able to be with us tonight and and but I think it's okay if we continue the conversation on that Sure, I think it's important for us to This type of conversation gets out different perspectives

You know, we're not we're not attacking one another. No, of course not. Right, right. So we're just getting out the different perspectives and Two of the one of the differences that that I see that I wanted to bring out was

From what I've gathered in our conversations that from the the Presbyterian view

I know some of the language that was used earlier was that there's a they baptize their their infants their children because they're and Puts them in the new covenant and therefore there's benefits that they receive from being in a new covenant

I think that they they would use the term there. There's efficacy in baptism and and That puts them in the new covenant.

And so they receive covenant blessings from being in the covenant whereas on the

Baptist side We do not we do not baptize children or infants but they receive benefits, so Some Baptists do baptize children

As long as they profess faith. Yeah, that would still be considered believers baptism, right?

Yeah Yeah, yeah, that would be yeah credo baptism So credo baptism believers baptism and they would some

Baptist do baptize children as long as they make a profession of faith but sure those who can't

Pentecostals do too if they make a profession of faith, right? Yeah, so the Presbyterian would use the word efficacy where the

Baptist would use the word receive benefit, but they're not Receiving the benefits of new covenant because they're in it they're receiving the benefits of new covenant because their parents are in it because they're professed believers and that's kind of a distinction that we've been having a conversation about between the two

Perspectives and that's one nuance where I kind of Differ with the traditional

Presbyterian view, I'm Like Jays the the weird Baptist.

I'm the weird Presbyterian Because I wouldn't say that they're in the covenant and this is where Jay and I actually line up I would say they're under the covenants

Because I would agree that they're under the covenant but I wouldn't say that's my two -month -old is in the covenants in the sense because going back to Not all

Israel is Israel. Not all of Abraham's descendants are his offspring That's what

I keep getting at man, I'm weird I think the the real difference is therefore so would you would you?

Would you baptize your children because they are under the covenant not necessarily in it Yes, but um,

I'm not of the baptismal efficacy vein Okay, so if they felt that in their walk with Christ, it was

Beneficial to them to be baptized as a convert. I Say go for it

Really? That's interesting. If I could jump in just for a second and ask just a clarifying question

Rob and Tyler and maybe Jay when you guys use the word efficacious What do you mean by that?

What what how are you defining? Efficacy, of course. So the idea with baptismal efficacy is essentially that there's something

Something significant that happens at baptism I think it's the Scots Confession that says that baptism is our ingrafting into the body of Christ Now they kind of tied it into membership not just into a local church but into the

Big C spiritual reality that is the church the church visible It's the church visible, but also invisible

I think with the Scots Confession that you're not just becoming part of our congregation, but this is your

This is your ingrafting into Christ and so the idea with Baptismal efficacy is what we mean is that there's some kind of spiritual

Action that takes place when a person is baptized. That is That is effective

To the point that oftentimes with Presbyterianism, they don't re -baptize Because you were baptized the first time so that is efficacious.

That is that it accomplished what God set out to do Quote unquote sure.

Yeah first time Yeah, no, that's good joy, go ahead. Oh, well

I was uh, I Was just gonna point out something that as we've talked and has become pretty apparent whenever we start to talk about baptism and and the way that we view it through a covenant theology and so that each person with when

Tyler was open to Or when Tyler was asked to kind of kind of kick it all off and then as it's flowed from Big John and from J is that we have seen repeatedly talk about Abraham and the covenant with him that has to do with circumcision and so really whether people are

Consistent or not in their in their covenantal theology, right a lot of times it won't

Precisely matter like there are many a Baptist that just adhere to classic covenant theology

But I believe just from previous conversations with with brother Tyler up here

That you would hold more similar views to like what John Owen Congregationalism Absolutely.

Okay. Okay. Okay. I actually have the Savoy Declaration pulled up here and that is very very very similar to 1689 federalism like from the from the book where Nehemiah Cox and John Owen go through together

And kind of lay out the different Separations of the covenants one under covenant of grace and one under covenant of works and How they chalk up the individual covenants?

I think the only difference would be is that you would see the Mosaic Covenant as works, right?

Yes Okay, but I do think that 1689 federalism. We would say that there was

Part of the Abrahamic Covenant as well that is also a covenant of works and I think that is the two things that if you're boiling it down to you know, you're picking through through it with a fine -toothed comb is that you would see circumcision as a work not necessarily as as part of the you know, the the grace itself, right you would see that it implies you need to have a

Circumcised heart right like you need to yes in body with you the picture of it. You do you get what

I'm saying? And well as with baptism, it's not the work that saves but it's a picture of what

God does What he has done in many of us what he will continue to do in the future is a picture of God's faithfulness

In such a way that the the pain sign has been replaced with a washing sign. Did that make sense?

Yeah, I think I don't want to jump ahead But I think this really gets to Because part of this is how we understand the

Covenant, right? What what is the Covenant objectively? But we also have to ask what baptism is is baptism like Big John Illustrated is baptism an outward confession of faith.

Is it is it something that says it's a proclamation of Our personal faith or is it something something that God has given to his church?

Like Tyler kind of described that that does have a spiritual significance, right? It's not

Regenerative But but there is something there and I I point this out fairly often, but the key just catechism

Along with the Westminster larger catechism both Describe baptism as effectual means of salvation, which is why

I asked for definition earlier Because there's there's a bit of a spectrum but in this regard the the

Reformed Baptist view Traditionally and the West Westminster Ian view are aligned and that they both recognize that there is something significant and efficacious

In the act of baptism whether that is to an infant or to somebody who has professed faith

Continue to want to make a distinction and and let me let me know guys If you if you think

I make it on the right track if you see this distinction But I see it in the

New Testament that there is the distinction there. There's two different Baptisms described in the

New Testament. There's a baptism of the Spirit and There there's a spiritual baptism and then there's water baptism by immersion

And yet we consider ourselves to be of one baptism Mm -hmm, right right and and I would say that refers to the if you had two columns

Then you know, you could put your different state like that would be me under spiritual baptism.

That's from the Spirit and Here's a verse that I was looking at earlier 1st

Corinthians chapter 12 verse Verse 13 or about one spirit, which is the

Holy Spirit. We were all baptized into one body That's right that some

I do not see water baptism Being described there and it says whether Jews or Greeks whether slaves are free.

We are made to drink of one Spirit so so we were baptized in the

Spirit We were baptized For by one spirit we were baptized into one body so I Can't read water baptism into that.

That's something that I just can't do I'll tell you why you can't do that because water baptism is the same thing

That we refer to in the Lord's Supper or in the Church of God We would also include foot washing in this was called a sacrament right and Sacraments are administered by by people

Salvation is wrought by the Lord and only by the Lord and can only be wrought by the Lord. So a baptism that we're talking about when we talk about water baptism is in is in memorandum is

Is an outward sign because you can't you can't Save anyone, right?

You can you can show everyone a body that you've been saved you can tell everybody that you've been saved

But you can't save anybody and I know that there's a hang -up about this this one baptism thing in terms of like Tyler was saying that he would allow his son or daughter if they were baptized as a child to also be baptized upon or Accepting Christ.

So I would say amen to that, right? When you read in Hebrews Chapter 6

Starting in one therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ. Let us press on to maturity.

I Don't want to come off on what I'm fixing to say is as being either condescending

Nor arrogant or any of the sort But I wanted to preface what

I'm fixing to read by saying it appears that getting hung up on these things is Assign of some kind of immaturity if you'll look

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ elementary teaching about the Christ. Let us press on to maturity

Not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God and of instruction about washings seeing zings

Plural right we would at least in this version It's plural and the laying on of hands and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment this will do if God permits then there's there's more scripture than that that that would could can go with it, but as a

Pentecostal believer If a man professes or woman professes faith in Christ Then it's it's normal and we would consider it obedient to be baptized baptize name of the

Father Son the Holy Spirit and If that man were to later

Backslide or prove that he wasn't saved whatever the case you want to use I'm not gonna get into an argument about about that on here, but for whatever reason should should be proven to be of the unsaved at another time and Would later profess his desire to be saved again and have a testimony that he was

Either saved again or rededicated his life, then it would be asked of him to be baptized again

That would be totally within actually, it's a hundred percent within the realms of what's expected and But but at the very least when

I read Hebrews, and it says ritual washings I've been baptized more than one time

Having after having been saved And if I were to ever

Be fortunate enough to take a trip to Jordan. I've often said I'd probably be baptized again in the

Jordan River I've always thought that would be really neat but So I see that sacraments

Some sacraments people do every Sunday and then some sacraments people only do one time. It seems Kind of uneven to some degree if you view baptism as being something that you do in response to salvation

To me if you don't if you view baptism to be something more Than an outward sign or something that you've done as in a response to having been saved

Then to me you're saying that that baptism does something and if that baptism does something then you're saying that that baptism is somehow effective in working your salvation and not have a problem with that in terms of My understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ Let me let me jump in here because I have to say my friend.

I do believe baptism does something but Number one it is not salvific and actually before I even get into that I want to clarify one thing in defense of the

Presbyterians that are not here Okay, I don't think that as far as I know.

I don't think any of the Presbyterians in our group Would say that They affirm baptismal regeneration

Well, they are over this one. We went over this one time with brother Dan and brother Dan would say that the the baptism that one undergoes

Either is Effective as a means of grace by God saving them after they were after they surrendered to Christ Or is a means by which they're condemned if they never do

Similarly to the way Paul would describe the Lord's Supper in and Corinthians Okay, but as far as I know, he's never said like yes,

I do believe in baptismal regeneration Correct, just not those words in that order. Okay. All right

So we might be sometimes we mean certain things with the words that we use and we might

Understand and mean two different things that's possible as far as I know as far as I know

I could be wrong. But as far as I know, none of the guys that are pedo -baptists in our group

Believe in baptismal regeneration again could be wrong, but I just want to clarify that sure With I don't want to paint them in a bad light either

You don't I mean and if I've been if I have a wrong idea Then I would prefer that you correct me publicly sure.

No, I mean again, I don't know so I'm not going to Say definitely like no, you know, or yes, but I don't think so so with that said

I Would say that baptism does something in the

Well, let me clarify Baptism does nothing But God works through baptism.

All right now When what I mean by that is for those who have faith, that's again

I'm not speaking for everybody, but I do believe that baptism is a means of grace not in a salvific sense

But in a sense in which God uses your baptism in order to strengthen your faith.

So let me give you an example Baptism we can all

I think we can all agree is a symbol of our being born again

Yes Yes, we would all agree with that. Okay, so when we are in times of doubt

Because it happens right we can all doubt, you know, my truly saved and did

Christ really die for me? I think that the Lord can use the baptism that we had as a reminder that like hey

You know look back to that baptism of yours Remember that that commitment that you made to Christ because he drew you in you are saved

Right. I think the Holy Spirit can give that conviction. I do believe that because it is a means of grace

God uses our the our baptism in order to to Reassure us and strengthen our faith

Just as he does with the Lord's Supper in this net and I know that there is different different Opinions on that and I also know that that doesn't necessarily have to do with covenant theology

But I I didn't know that so there's that I mean, it's it's tied to it

But it's not it's not directly about covenant theology, so So everything is tied to covenant theology,

I mean that's fair so Like I said in fairness to at least let me know let me not even speak for Presbyterians in our group just Presbyterians in general you go to the regular

You know average PCA attendant I Don't think most of them would say

That they affirm baptismal regeneration. So just want to clarify that. I think that it's just for them.

It is a sign and seal of Someone's entering into the covenant.

So let me let me bounce this off of you then and just give you a little kickback and more more than to be

Argumentative I wanted to kind of hear your take on it. So it's not uncommon in any

Protestant denomination Baptist or Pentecostal Included in this to have an infant

Dedication and one where we would brought We bring a child our children to church and stand before the church and say as a

Christian man and as my Christian wife We're going to raise this child in the fear of the

Lord We want to teach this child the ways of the Lord all the days of our life and I'm going to expect that this church be the church to this child that this church be an extension of the family and and I expect whenever you see

Him or her get out of line that you in love would correct them and bring them back to me and things like that We would refer to that as an infant dedication to the

Lord and Under no circumstances whatsoever would I ask that child?

when he was 12 or she was 12 years old if she remembered the time that she was or Give her or him the

Bible that was that they were gifted that day and say see you were raised To be a

Christian now go act like one without ever a given them an opportunity to surrender to the Lord on their own

Understand Me I could see this this pedo baptism thing as being a souped -up baby dedication well,

I don't think you you and I would agree because I with all respect to Presbyterians, I think that's really what it comes down to I think it's just a baby dedication.

They just add water. I call baby Dedications waterless infant baptisms.

It just is what it is Yeah, so who's being inconsistent are the

Presbyterians being inconsistent by doing moist baby dedications or are the Credo Baptist being inconsistent by doing waterless baby baptisms.

Here's why I don't do baby dedication That's why you don't know you just don't and and I can understand someone refusing to have their baby dedicated because they don't want to liken it unto a

A Baptism however, the child has zero to do

With the with the service with the exception of the child is that is present This is something that whenever I dedicate a baby to the church.

I'm talking to the parents and I'm talking to the church I usually hold the child but I Hold the child, but when

I pray I pray over the child over the parents over the family and over the church And I'm I'm expecting the parents to do what they said they're going to do and that would be to me.

I Can't speak for anyone else But to me I would put this in the same category as I would put church attendance or church membership

Whenever we bring a new member into the church, I say Here's what the declaration of faith in the

Church of God teaches in order to become a member I think you need to accept this these 14 declarations of faith

I think you ought to be fully aware of what you're signing on for right? What do you call that? Informed consent so to speak right and then

I said I'm gonna hold you to to this and then I Asked the church if there's anyone in the church that has a reason why the person couldn't be a member whether it be something that I don't know about or something.

I should know about a manner of church discipline that's still being Still being played out and and hasn't been resolved yet Then we'd say yeah

There's there's something that keeps this person from being a member and they make that claim Then they at least we have to have we have to have a discussion about it

But if there's no one who makes a claim against that person Then we all join into what is essentially a type of covenant that we're going to be brothers in Christ and love one another

No matter what happens and we're gonna we're gonna be there for each other. I'm gonna pray for you I'm going if you need me you're to call on me and you're not to wait till it's to you to call on me early and often and And I don't know what you'd call that other than a covenant, what would you call that?

Like a covenant to me so to me Saying doing approach in church membership that way in a baby dedication is very similar, but neither one of them

I would consider a sacrament. I Wanted to be fair to them as well, too and based on my conversations with them they they do not believe in baptismal regeneration as Baptism as a work as a as a means to salvation however

It's just like Jay said the similar words same words Different meaning they're they're nuanced in such a way that it gives us trouble understanding

Their perspective sometimes that's what I did want to be fair to them and also to your

Hebrews passage John that you read I also wanted to be fair to them in that as well to where you know,

I Can't remember the exact wordings but but going over those elementary things

To be fair to them Using that word and doing the best of my ability to be fair and represent them without them being here

So forgive me if I don't do a good job brothers So part of their perspective is looking back towards those who were closer in proximity when it comes to time to Jesus the the patristics the

The disciples, you know all those guys the early church and Part of their argument is well, you know, it's not us rehashing some of these things or the going over the elementary things over and over because They're part of church history and we're just holding on to Things that were believed and held to in the early church by the patristics and the early church fathers so another that was redundant, but I I think everyone's kind of got their their own view of that as well

I mean we can go back in church history and find that just as old as Pato baptism It are people that are holding off on baptism till they're dying breath

Because they think it actually is a work that washes away their sins You know just because something is old

Does not necessarily mean that it is correct. I love things that are old and things that are correct

You know, I find great comfort in looking at Biblical manuscripts that that validate the

Word of God that I have that I have today That say the same thing that are that are from the second century that are from the third century

Love looking at those But that was just my my throwback to that one

You almost have a rape oh This I rebounded it this one's mine rebinded

That I did I did this guy new bind Yeah, got a new bind on it. I do that as a hobby

And so I've done a bunch of them But yeah, this is a really cool

Bible. I'll show you some other time. I saw it while we was up at Reformata Oh, yeah, that's right

I was sitting behind you to the right and I said my man has got to have the longest Tassel I've ever seen on the

Bible if we were if we were going for length of Bible rap He's equating to the amount of holiness.

My man is really got it going on over here If I get bored in church,

I start smacking my wife with it and whoever sits in front of well I saw you throwing it through your fingers and I and that's what caught my attention.

I was like check that out I mean all I've got is these ribbons Well, you know these little thin little silk ribbons sticking through the page.

I don't have a rope So I wrap my hymnal my confession and my little

To it and so I've I've always got them laid on top of each other ready to go

Oh, so you're like a kid going to school in the 1940s That's what it is, but every other blank page in it it's inspired by Jonathan Edwards So every other page and my

Bible is actually blank And so I can I can do all my exhaustive commentary throughout all the scriptures

That's awesome. It's just a fun little neat neat thing. Okay, can you pull that?

That comet back up Rob. Thanks. Oh That's my rib

She has my rib has validated the fact that I Think Jesus rebuked guys for having long tassels.

Oh, yeah, but those tassels were on their clothes That's the next that's the next level do you desire to sit in the highest prestigious seats and all that's in all the temple

I wouldn't have to give you one to rebound I'm I am NOT good. It is not worth the money.

I'll just throw that out there It will cost you more and be poor quality

I Didn't want to say something about efficacy because Josh you quoted the the confessions and I Wanted to throw out kind of where I am on efficacy.

I Believe in Epicy in baptism, but it goes back to my two different types of baptism in the baptism the

Holy Spirit, I Believe there is efficacy in that Well, that's cheating.

We all believe that right But What happens is that it seems like the two to get mixed the water baptism and the spirit baptism

That's me. And so Efficacy is used with water baptism when

I would only use efficacy with baptism the Holy Spirit I'm I'm sorry.

Go ahead. I I do not like the term efficacy tied to it it makes me uncomfortable as far as It can grow into meaning so many different things

I think that the efficacy that is inside baptism That that we could as safe as we can apply it is only that it is a sign of Christ Right is only that it is symbolizing

Christ's death burial and resurrection and the same thing with the Lord's Supper The Lord's Supper is only as efficacious as it points to Christ Right that we're not looking at the at the juice and at the at the bread, right?

We're not looking at the time in which we were dipped in water We are looking at the substance of the sign which would be

Jesus Christ Same way with circumcision in the Old Testament, but to say that in and of the the act of doing it ourselves

Generating anything or that that moment being something, you know,

I don't look back at the Lord's Supper that I took Here three weeks ago and go, you know what?

I've got it is it is spiritual nourishment to us But it is because of the symbolism of Christ.

It's It's all because it points all to Christ. I can't look back at that and go that that's my hope

Right, it's it's only as it's signifies Christ That's how

I know that you're a Baptist because you said the juice and the bread not so Hey, I'm with you.

Welch is all the way Don't you let nobody else in bed about that? I got you, bro. You keep your test I'm not even gonna get into it.

That's fine. I Totally agree with you Troy. I I'm there. I'm I make a distinction between water baptism and spiritual baptism

That's where I see the efficacy not not with water baptism But what do you think there's a tie?

Do you think there's a tie between them Rob? The reason why I ask is because Do you think that there was a significance to the fact that when

Jesus was baptized? The Holy Spirit descended off on him. Do you think that there's a tie between?

Baptism of the Holy Spirit at all and water baptism, or would you say? Absolutely, no tie whatsoever

Not not not a mixing of the two mind you but there's there's some kind of relationship the relationship is

Obedience you you reference the baptism of Jesus and the

The coming of the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove Even though it was close in proximity.

It was still at different times You had the baptism and then you had the descending of the

Spirit as a dove Why this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.

Why was he well pleased because of his obedience green and so there's a relationship between water baptism and spiritual baptism in the fact that One is

What is the fruit of obedience because of the former Yeah, I agree with you.

I was just curious. I think that the tie is those who are baptized in the

Holy Spirit will be Baptized what like water baptized like because the

Holy Spirit leads them to that, right? So, right Let me jump in just for a second since we

Are short on our our Presbyterians and our other pedo -baptists I Would say that Baptist sacraments, let's look at sacraments broadly in the

Old Testament there were many sacraments way more than on the New Testament and Those sacraments were to be done in faith, right and they were instructive.

They were didactic and they pointed to What what the Messiah would accomplish?

So they were performed again, it's a different administration the sacraments are of a different nature on in the on the one hand, but they were

They were something that was given to the people of Israel by God That that was pointing to something real.

It was something tangible Pointing to something that was real and objective But hadn't been realized and was as of yet intangible so now in the

New Testament Baptism it's again. It is something that God has given to his church that is

It points to a spiritual reality. It's not something that we do. It's not something that is

That we are doing to declare something to other people that declare something to God, but it is something that we receive

That points to a spiritual reality and that that can be

I mean, I'm mostly cradle Baptist. So that's my understanding now as a cradle Baptist But at that that's also just it just understanding the nature of what the sacraments are for and what they do

And that that's something that I hold in common with other cradle

Baptists So so just for clarification For those who would say there is some efficacy in water baptism.

Yeah, it's still what whatever is Efficacious God is doing it

Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So let me let me just read from the key to his catechism real quick. This is question 98

How do baptism in the Lord's Supper become effectual means of salvation?

Here's the answer baptism the Lord's Supper become effectual means of salvation Not from any virtue in them or in him that it ministers them

So it's not in the elements or in the minister that is performing or administering the sacrament But only by the blessing of Christ and the working of his spirit in them that by faith receive them

And the Westminster larger catechism says something it's longer, but it's it's it's

Says something similar Let me just note that Keach's catechism is a

Baptist catechism. Yes, FYI Yeah, I mean, but you hear how you how you read that and it says read it again

Yeah, so how to baptism the Lord's Supper become effectual means of self salvation

All right that there that part when you say that Yep, when you say that what my what my

Pentecostal ear hears is this is the means that God Uses to save you

Then you're saying that that is not you're not saying that that's what that says though Well, so again

We're dealing with older language here. So these are these were written. That's just why I'm asking you to clear it up, right?

Yeah So it's not you're not saved by taking communion in the immediate sense, right?

so you don't take communion and now I'm saved so the Papists during the

Reformation meeting up to the Reformation and even still today they look at the elements of the

Lord's Supper as Holy so during the medieval period they would not give the peasants who came to mass

They would not give them the cup They would give them the bread But they wouldn't give them the cup because well what happens if they spill the cup now that the

Lord's blood is all over the Ground right they so they wouldn't give them the cup. They put all of the emphasis on the elements themselves

And you also have records of people Taking the wafers and making shrines in their houses and all sorts of weird stuff because the emphasis was on the elements the

Protestants Staunchly and unequivocally pushed back against this understanding and said no These sacraments they are sacraments.

There's a spiritual dimension to the sacraments that by by definition But the the efficacious nature the effectual nature of the sacraments is

In the promise of God behind those sacraments not in the sacraments themselves If that makes sense,

I will also quote Keach's catechism this is question number 94 and it may help you big

John just kind of understand the the layout that That that Keach would be arguing here

And it's how is the word made effectual to salvation the

Spirit of God maketh the reading but especially the preaching of the word and effectual means of Convincing and converting sinners and of building them up in holiness and comfort through faith unto salvation

Now the same thing in question 96 Baptism and the Lord's Supper's becomes effectual means of salvation

Not for any virtue in them or in him that doeth administer them and here's the here here's why they are but only by the blessing of Christ and the

Working of the Spirit and those that by faith received them and That makes it more sensible.

That makes it more sensible. I'll give you that it's just that I Mean salvation,

I don't like using it a salvation is a work wrought entirely in Christ right and And is applied to man because of grace and through faith and so much so is that Even in the way you discussed that with the word that would lead some to believe that's that merely reading the word

Would by somehow another grant one some manner of effective salvation or be effective in someone's salvation

But the fact of the matter is is that if everything Christ did including the cross Was done as it's just as we read it, but he was still in the ground we'd have no salvation even in that Mm -hmm 100 % of the word being read a hundred percent of all the sacraments being followed a hundred percent of the of the perfect life of Christ the faith in Christ and his death and the

Grace that comes from from God above but if Christ is still dead, you're still lost

You're still no, there's still no hope of salvation whatsoever So and I I suppose it's my

I'm zealous about the gospel. I won't I won't budge on this So it's it's the the hope and the fact of the resurrection the fact of the resurrection and the hope that comes from from the resurrection that Grants salvation in the first place to those and it's that one singular act by that one

God the only one who is able to do that and Whenever I hear something that in any way shape or form seems to try to be a funnel or Avenue anything other than grace

To work this kind of salvation of people Every red flag in my arsenal falls out of my pocket and upon the ground lights go off Danger sounds go off in my head and and and and I want to go delete delete, you know close whatever the word is shut the lid on the thing and And I think

I hear what you're saying and I think I agree with it, but there's so much other words there's a

There there's something that that might be helpful If I explain it like this because I Resonate with you big

John Especially when I was coming into reformed theology and stuff. I had a lot of questions. I was like, whoa

What does that mean? You know what I mean? Like When we When you when you preach the gospel to somebody do you save them?

No, no, right So it I mean some people might say oh, you know, I got saved by so -and -so

But you know that they're not literally saying Oh Big John saved me they're not literally saying that they're just saying like the

Lord used Big John's bring the gospel to me. And so I received the gospel through Big John's preaching, right?

I've been more or less. That's what that's what they're saying. Sure, but it wasn't you Somebody once said to me the sacraments are declarations of the gospel and It for some reason when they said that to me it clicked

I was like, ah I get it. So I'm not sure if that's helpful, but it's one way to think

I think I think that's super helpful and I just want to point out one more thing For piggybacking off what

Troy said About the word you backed up to question 96 And maybe but I just want to draw this out from Scripture Romans 10 verse verse 14

Well, we'll back up to 13 for anyone who calls on the name of the

Lord will be saved How then will they call on him? Whom they have not in whom they have not believed and how will they believe in him on of whom they have not heard?

How are they how are they here without someone? Without someone preaching so again, it's

We know the scripture is super clear that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone

It is a sovereign work of God. I can't save anybody. You can't save anybody

No one can save themselves. This is a work of the Spirit, but We can also say that that God brings people to faith by The by the proclamation of the gospel, right?

So if you have in Big John, you might not agree with this, but if you have You know some some untouched tribe 200 years ago in the

Amazon the Gospels never Never been brought to this island

There's no gospel like there at all now God is sovereign he can do what he wants Right.

I have no problem with that God our God isn't thrown in the heavens. He does whatever he pleases but According to what scripture says if you're not saved apart from Faith in Christ and you have no one has ever preached

Christ to you Apart from God appearing to somebody in a dream or something like that They have no there's no means of salvation available to them because the means that God has purposed and promised to use for the bringing of His elect to faith or the bringing of sinners to faith in Christ Was not was not present in this in this tribe.

Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. I mean I'm not insinuating that y 'all were in any way

Saying there's there's another way of salvation other than Christ I know you mean good enough to know that and I wouldn't be a part of this

Outfit if if if that was the if that was the mantra cry that there was another way

You know, they're not then y 'all would have to do it without the token Pentecostal guy in the group that's just all there is to it the

That I love y 'all to there's you know, that's That's that's why

I'm not a dispensationalist is because the the dispensationalism that I've always seen always offered a way of salvation apart from Christ and and in In the strictest of terms

I just don't like anything sharing In God's glory in any way shape or form whether they even be something that God's given us to do

I mean though the Old Testament was what Jesus Was confronted with whenever people tried to say well

He can't be he can't be the Messiah because there's any good thing come out of Nazareth He can't be the

Messiah you tell me where some Messiah supposed to be born Right and all this all these things and Jesus tells him says you you boasting the word

The word test supposed to tell about me, you know It was they had a very poor understanding of the of the

Word of God had the gospel in their hand You know, some say the gospel in the Old Testament being failed whatever but regardless it's there and though they had eyes they couldn't see it they had ears they couldn't hear it and He said the the whole point of this word is to testify of me and you've missed it, right?

so even in the word you can miss the point and and have the word and you can have a

Thousand different copies of the Bible in your house and be as far from Jesus as the man in the moon and I just To me whenever I hear that language

I hear It it seems to diminish at least in my own mind. It works to diminish the supernatural work of salvation and it seems to I Know that's not y 'all's goal.

So I'm not I'm not I'm not saying this is what you're doing but when I read those kinds of words or someone likens a sacrament to being an effective means of grace,

I I don't I just can't see it that way. I've had to side. However with Rob on What'd you call it?

I was what's the other one besides a covenantal? I don't know what

I'm talking about Y 'all used to me different is that what it's called I Think that's what you're referring to.

Okay This words. I don't know what half this this stuff means you y 'all's questions are too hard for more from charitable to understand

You understand what I mean? Well, I think in between the middle middle of me and Jay I think

I see a new reformed Baptist Growing. No, I think I think the longer that we stick together the closer to Pentecost Y 'all get me already starting to understand me.

I There's one outpouring the Holy Spirit messing around from this thing right here. We're y 'all being set on fire boys

I need a lot of these you think you think that tassel Troy's got up there son I Was a

Couple minutes ago after Big John Not this last time he talked but the time before oh

Man about took me back. I wanted to become a few runner. It was great And it's because of where he took it right it said like, you know

We can talk about this, this is my 1689 and my keeches catechism I rebound it to yes,

I know It goes with my Bible If this thing

Does not preach the gospel which I believe it does right? I I hold to the 1689

I don't I don't hold the keeches like I do the 1689 I and what that means whenever I mean

I hold to it is that I mean that it explains the Bible in Short and short form to where if someone says, you know, what what you know, what do you believe about the

Bible? I can go, you know, here you go It's got nice little sections with with head tiding with you know titles over the top of the head.

I Believe that this is you know a good summary of the

Word of God however, if You know if I'm reading this and I find that there's anything that contradicts

God's Word I will set this thing on fire throw it out of window as fast as I can Because the the gospel the the righteous zealousy

Zealousness, I don't know the the word. I'm a conceal the righteous zeal That our brother big

John showed for the for the gospel and keeping the gospel the gospel the main things all these

Signs that we have all the ordinances that we have they all Point to Christ to the finished work of Christ circumcision pointed to Christ as Josh said earlier the you know the the types and shadows of the

Old Testament of the sacrificial system of all the law all of these things are pointing to Christ and his finished work and we have to keep that Central that is the very heart and core of our faith, right?

We can talk about The the wording and some of the different language from men who lived 400 years ago and it's and it's it's good.

We can see it. We can see their heart We can explain it and all that other stuff but clear proclamation of the gospel in today's words is is

I Will say a hundred and fifty million times times better I Did start with my my section of saying that that language it was uncomfortable.

I don't really like to Throw it out there, right? I think effectual is a is a weird word.

I understand it in the context. They were they were Debating with the papist and all the other

I'm fine with it that way But if I'm going to be street preaching with someone or I'm giving the gospel at my workplace

I Ain't going to there's there's you know efficacy for Salvation in the baptism, right?

I'm not going for there's efficacy and salvation in the Lord's Supper. I'm going with Repent and believe

Christ and him crucified him raised and him seated in heaven You know for the saving and the rescue of your soul

Yeah, I I don't that was that was my rant Well, does anybody else have one last word on this subject?

Maybe if you guys aren't opposed to it, we can wrap up the covenant theology conversation with a with a part for if Anybody has a last word

Tyler. I love to hear you present the gospel gave you the first word I'd love to give you the last word and Jay would you close us in prayer?

So does he might have the last word? Anything that they wanted to get in real quick.

If all right, I nominate Josh Josh no, I'm good, man

Give my two cents. That's all I've got put him in the middle Well, let me let me say this because they're not with us those specifically in our

Network group and those outside of our network group who are pedo -baptist from different denominations

We hope that in no way that we misrepresented you at all. We want to be fair We want to be to represent you.

Well and if I failed I see I repent seek your forgiveness, so we try to do the best that we could with and Because of the

Title of this episode. We wanted to try to give a representation of the different ones just for educational purposes

So we could lay out on the table all the different views so Hopefully we did.

Okay, at least I know that Dan says I don't get it right all all the time and he has to correct me, which is perfectly.

Okay I'm fine with being corrected. But with that being said however, if you're ready,

I'd love for you to share the gospel with them of course in the book of Acts, there's a point where we're told that Philip is brought by God's providence to meet with a eunuch from Ethiopia and the concept of being a eunuch in that time period was that they were very

Yeah, these aren't people you want to associate with they're they're the outsiders they're the the riffraff and Philip walks alongside him and talks through Isaiah 53 talks through Christ the atoning sacrifice who died for sin and I always

Think about how it's Isaiah 56 and I like to think that he also read this

Neither let the son of the stranger that has joined himself to the Lord speak saying the

Lord has utterly Separated me. Let the outsider not say the

Lord has separated me Neither let the eunuch say behold

I am a dry tree For thus sayeth the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my

Sabbath and choose the things that please me and take hold of my covenant Even Unto them will

I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a house in a name

Regardless of sin regardless of background. We are all outsiders We are all eunuchs

We are all in some sense separated from God separated from his goodness

We are rebel sinners and yet Christ has made a way for all of us

For every tribe tongue and people to be reconciled to himself so that even the eunuchs are counted as sons and We the truth and love network implore you to come unto

Christ and you will find him to be a fully sufficient Savior One who will bring you into his arms and his family

And no one shall pluck you out of his hand. Let's play pray gentlemen

Heavenly Father We thank you for the opportunity to be doing this Just discussing your word

Lord in a way that many many years ago we wouldn't have been able to Lord we thank you for the opportunity to get together in some sense

Lord and Just reflect on What we believe and why we believe it

Lord knowing full well that Not all of us are gonna be 100 % correct all the time

Lord And so I pray as as we continue these conversations as people continue to watch and listen

Father what we want ultimately is for your glory we want your gospel to be lifted up and even as we have these conversations that are important Lord that your word does cover and Not all of us are going to be correct

We pray Lord that people see the grace among brothers. We pray that People would be led to further study to search the truth of your word

Lord and that you would lead us to all truth Father bring the gospel to the lost this evening

Use this time that we have spent here discussing your word To reach the lost to bring your people closer to the truth

Lord and to glorify your name That's all we can hope for Lord. And we know you will do in Jesus name.

We pray. Amen Amen Thank you for watching the laborers podcast we really do appreciate it we love you and we hope to see you next time

Thank you for joining the laborers podcast Remember Jesus is King Live in the victory of Christ Speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.