Staying in the Fight (conversation with Tom Ascol)

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And welcome back to Your Calvinist Podcast.

My name is Keith Foskey, and as always, I am your Calvinist.

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All right, well, today on the show, we're going to be doing something that I have looked forward to for a very long time, and that

is I am going to be talking to a man who I genuinely respect and appreciate and admire,

and a man who I can say in many ways changed the course of my ministry,

because years and years ago, I thought I was going to be put out of my church.

I thought I was going to have to resign.

I thought I was going to lose the ministry that I was in.

But lo and behold, I'm still there, and I've been in the same church now for 18 years.

But it wouldn't have been that way if it weren't for the man that I'm about to bring on to the show, the man who

is the head of the Founders Ministries, Dr. Tom

Askell.

Tom, thank you for being on the show with me today.

I really appreciate it.

Well, Keith, it's a joy and an honor.

Thank you for inviting me.

Well, I appreciate it very much, and a few weeks ago, I did a podcast where I talked about the

history of our church, and I talked about when we became confessional.

We actually hold to the First London Confession, which is an interesting conversation we might dive into a little bit later.

But we weren't always that way.

There was a time when the church that I'm in—I actually, I pastored the church I grew up in, and so I've been here since I was seven

years old.

And there was a time when our church was actually part of the old Disciples of Christ Church.

So you want to talk about a major shift from Disciples of Christ to a particular

Baptist.

That's a big change.

But when I became the pastor in 2006, a couple years later,

there was a group within the church that rose up—and this is the story I told on the previous podcast—a group that rose up

that didn't like what I was preaching.

Particularly, they did not like the doctrines of grace, and they wanted everyone to know that I was a Calvinist and that I shouldn't be

there, that I should be removed.

And I wrote my resignation because I thought the church no longer wanted me to minister there.

And it was, I remember specifically, it was a Wednesday night that the head elder at the time told me, you know,

this is bad, things are bad.

So the next day was Thursday, I wrote my resignation, thinking that on that Sunday I was going to present my

resignation letter.

But I said, you know what?

I met this guy at a Founders Conference.

I had gone to a Founders Conference like the year before.

It was in Tampa.

It was with Stephen Kreloff at his church.

Michael Fallon had led the music and had emceed the event.

You were there.

Roy Hargrave, who I genuinely loved and respected—I know he's with the Lord now, but he was there.

And it was such an amazing thing that I got an opportunity to meet you guys, learn from.

You guys.

I remember something very specifically that you taught.

You talked about the difference between Hyper -Calvinism and Arminianism.

You said Arminians believe that God's not fully sovereign because man's

responsible.

And Hyper -Calvinism says because God is sovereign, man's not responsible.

There was like this thing, and it really helped.

Again, I'm talking a lot.

I want to hear from you, but I'm telling you this story because meeting you was helpful.

And I knew you were someone who could empathize, sympathize with the situation I was in.

So by God's grace, you answered the phone.

And when I called, I guess I'd gotten your number at the conference or something.

When I called, you answered the phone.

And I told you my story, and I'll never forget what you said.

And I hope I'm quoting you correctly.

I'm sure you don't remember, but you said, do not leave, stay

and fight.

Does that sound like something you'd say?

Well, it does sound like me.

I can't swear to the authenticity of that particular conversation, but it does sound like something I might say.

Yes.

Well, that changed my life.

I'm not going to lie, because I got off the phone that day and told my wife.

I said, Tom Askell just said, if I leave, I'm a coward.

And I didn't tell her.

I said, Tom Askell just told me that I should actually stand for the truth

and that I should stay and fight.

And if they don't want me, I think something you said to the effect is, if they don't want you, they'll let you know,

but don't walk away.

Make them make the decision.

And that was, again, you changed my life.

Now, I've told you all this.

Do you remember any of this?

Well, you know, Keith, I wish I could tell you.

I remember the exact conversation.

I don't.

But I've had that kind of conversation many, many times.

And, you know, I've had a conversation with myself at different times, I've had to tell it to myself,

because there are a lot of churches that just aren't well ordered and a

lot of faithful men will go into such churches and they'll meet with strong opposition and

sometimes very godless opposition, sometimes with very godless people who are even in

leadership in such churches.

And, you know, I hate to say it, but it's true.

It happens just like there are some godless pastors.

So I acknowledge the other side of that as well.

But too often what happens is that a man, for a variety of reasons, will feel like, well, goodness, if I

stay here, it's going to hurt the church and I don't want to sully the reputation of Christ or for

many any number of other reasons.

He might be compelled to to leave because of opposition.

And too many pastors leave too soon that there's never a time to leave, but

too many leave too soon.

And when they do, they leave some faithful sheep who need a shepherd and they're leaving them to

wolves.

And we should not do that if we can avoid it.

And sometimes I think we can't avoid it and we're just tempted to leave too quickly.

So, yeah, that that kind of counsel is something that that I've given regularly.

And it's because I don't remember if I told this to you in our conversation, but I was struck

many, many years ago by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 16.

Do you remember we talked about this passage at all?

I don't remember, but.

OK, well, there's 1 Corinthians 16, you know, he's he's told the church at Corinth, he wants to come see them.

And there's some people saying, well, you know, why didn't Paul showing up?

And so in chapter 16, I think his verses eight and nine, he says, you know, I have intended

to come to you, but I must stay in Ephesus because I think the language is

a wide door of effective ministry has been opened to me and there are many adversaries.

It's like there's two reasons to stay.

One, man, great opportunity for the gospel.

And there's a bunch of people here that don't want me here.

And we tend to think if there are people here that don't want me here, I shouldn't be.

I should leave.

And Paul says, no, no, no, no.

That's a reason for me to stay.

So if that were true in Paul's life there in Ephesus, when he describes it elsewhere as

being eaten by wild beasts at Ephesus or fighting wild beasts, then we who

shepherd local flocks today, we ought to have something in us that is willing to stand even in the

face of adversity.

Amen.

Amen.

Well, I want to, since we're talking about this time back in, you know, the 08

time, I want to talk a little bit about the history of your ministry, because

I know you've been a pastor for a long time, but you've also been fighting this good fight of Reformed

doctrines.

We'll say the doctrines of grace, particular Baptist theology.

You've been fighting this fight.

I recently had R. Scott Clark on, so I'm a little allergic to the term Reformed Baptist because he was over.

There.

I said, get over that.

Oh, yeah.

But of course, that's what you've been fighting for.

I say we because I feel like I'm in it with you in one sense.

We're all fighting for the truth of the Reformed faith and the truth of the doctrines of grace.

When exactly did Founders Ministries start?

And why, why did it start?

What gave you that impetus and desire to begin that?

Yeah, Founders began in a prayer meeting in November of

1982.

It's really crazy to think about it now coming up on 42 years.

But I was a student at Southwestern Seminary.

I had been there for not three years, maybe two years, two and a half years.

I've been married a couple of years and there were a group of students, maybe a dozen

of us, that had come to the doctrines of grace during my time there at that stage.

And Curtis Vaughn was a New Testament Greek professor who believed these doctrines.

And so he'd been influential in my life in training me in Greek.

And I never will forget one day in class, he's making us read Ephesians chapter one.

And one of the students had verse four.

And so he reads Ephesians 1, 4 and he says, you know, Dr. Vaughn says, I know what it

says.

You know, I know it says that God chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

But what does it mean?

And I'll never forget Dr. Vaughn, he said, son, it means what it says.

That kind of really landed on me.

I had Tom Nettles, my first class at Southwestern in 1979, the summer, was Tom Nettles for church

history.

And I kept finding myself on the wrong side of these historical debates between orthodoxy and heterodoxy.

And, you know, when he finished describing the debates between Augustine and Pelagius or

Luther and Erasmus or Gottschalk and Hinkmar, Rimes, whoever it was, and he'd say, now these

represent historic Christian orthodoxy.

I remember thinking to myself, man, I'm glad we've changed that.

I'm glad that it got used in orthodox.

And finally, about the middle of that summer, I go in to see him.

I said, Dr. Nettles, I got a question, man.

I said, I must my notes must be wrong because I've written down my notes here that you say, you know, Augustine was

right and and Gottschalk was right and Luther was right.

And I said, you know, my notes must be wrong.

And he said, no, said your notes are wrong.

Your notes are right.

You're wrong.

It's OK.

So that began to just kind of set me on a journey of trying to figure out what do I believe?

And if these things are not right, you know, what does the Bible say?

And I remember trying to trip Tom up for he was Dr. Nettles to me back then, but I was trying to trip him up.

My brother and I would get on the phone every week and we'd come up with a new strategy of, you know, I bet he's never thought about John

316, you know, those things to him.

So over the course of two years, I and a lot of other guys, about a dozen, came to the Doctrine of Grace.

And there was a man who was pastoring here on the east coast of Florida by the name of Ernie Reisinger.

And Ernie had been a construction worker and actually started a construction company in

Pennsylvania, in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and God had saved him in the Navy.

And just a great story.

His testimony is great.

You can read it in his biography by Jeff Thomas that Banner of Truth published.

But Ernie came down to Florida and began to pastor.

And after he retired from the construction world, pastored this church in Pompano Beach and

led it was a Southern Baptist Church, led that church to see and believe the Doctrines of Grace and

discovered that James Boyce, Pettigrew Boyce, was the first and founding president of

Southern Seminary, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary down in Louisville.

And that Boyce had written a systematic theology or it actually consisted of his notes were put together.

I have to interrupt you only to say this is sitting on my desk, The Abstract of Systematic Theology.

I just talked about this on the show two weeks ago.

OK.

Yeah.

This is what you're referring to, right?

Right.

The reason that that book's known today is because of Ernie and Fred Malone, who had been a student at

Reform Theological Seminary in Jackson and had discovered one of these old volumes in an old used

bookstore by Boyce and Ernie read it.

And then Ernie organized it getting reprinted.

And and so the church there in Pompano and other places gave money to reprint it.

Ernie started going to Southern Baptist Seminaries and saying, hey, look, this is a systematic theology written by the founder and first president of

Southern.

Can I give these away to your graduating students?

And so all the presidents of all the six Southern Baptist Seminaries, plus Mid America, said, sure, this would be great.

We want our students to have a systematic theology by one of our early Southern Baptist leaders.

And so he was able to do that for two or three years.

Well, I wasn't a graduating student, but I remember in 1980, I had

enough demerity to go up to him and say, I'm not graduating.

Can I get a copy anyway?

And he gave me one.

And it was just mind blowing to me to read it.

And he was able to continue to do that for two or three years until finally one of the presidents of the seminary actually read the

abstract and said, what are we doing?

You know, we're not we don't believe this.

And so they wouldn't let him back on campus.

And anyway, I got endeared to Ernie through some providential things.

So he wrote a letter to me, to Tom Nettles and about half a dozen other guys saying we should what

should we do?

Man, I'm getting all these contact from students who are reading this book and believing, yeah, this is a good biblical

understanding of the doctrine of salvation.

What should we do?

And so he organized a meeting right outside of Dallas in Euless, Texas, at a Holiday Inn on a

Saturday in November 1982.

We spent the first half of that day in prayer.

And there were seven men, seven of us.

And then the second half of the day, we were reading scripture, praying and trying to plan.

What do we do?

We decided to have a conference.

And Tom Nettles was at that point gone to Mid -American Seminary in Memphis.

And so he found a campus, Rhodes College, that became, I think, Southwest College later

on, Southwest University.

But Dr. Nettles was able to make arrangements for us to rent the facilities there for a

conference next summer.

We had about 100, I think maybe 111 men that showed up for that first conference.

We couldn't believe that there were that many that would be in the doctrines of grace among a primarily Southern

Baptist context.

And so from there, we decided we need to do this again.

And from there, Founders Ministries emerged over decades now with a variety

of different ministries of publishing and holding conferences and a website and a

journal.

And now the Institute of Public Theology that is in its third year as well here in Cape.

Coral.

Yeah, we had, oh, I know his name, but it's the president of the Institute of.

Public Theology, or the dean, yes, Scott Callaham.

Yeah, yeah, Scott.

And you know, it's funny as I text him several times, we've talked several times since the show.

I know his name.

Scott, when you watch this, I apologize.

It just went out of my mind.

But yeah, we're supportive or try to support the Institute of Public Theology.

I think that's a wonderful thing you guys are doing and encouraging people.

Also, you mentioned Fred Malone.

He was at that first conference I went to, too.

The Baptism of Disciples Alone is his treatment on credo baptism and

was very helpful.

To me.

Yeah, that's right.

So I do have a this raises a question, and I remember at least I

think I do.

The first conference I went to, it was called the Southern Baptist Founders, but then it became the Founders.

Is that correct?

Am I remembering that right?

Yeah, well, you're almost right.

The first title that we came up with was the Southern Baptist Conference on the Faith of.

The Founders.

It was pretty much.

But yeah, that that was the initial title.

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

And so now it's just founders, right?

People who are looking for you.

Yeah, yeah, we sent ministries because it became far more than a conference after several years.

Yeah.

And you guys, I mean, you guys publish.

You guys are doing all kinds of work.

I mean, Dr. Renahan is working with you guys now, and I have his

commentary on the first confession.

I mentioned our church holds to the first confession, and we have his commentary there on that.

This was the second confession that he did.

They're both excellent, excellent treatises.

Yeah.

And that does lead me to a question because I know a lot of my viewers would want to know this, and that is

the the relationship that you guys have, because I'm assuming the founders would support what would be known as

a 1689 federalist position.

Is that is that correct?

Right.

OK, what is your relationship with the progressive covenantal side?

And the reason why I ask is because our church would probably more align with that on certain things, certain doctrines.

And, you know, Dr. Wellam, Dr. Gentry's book, Kingdom Through Covenant, has been helpful

in helping us nail down a few things.

How do you feel about the distinction there?

And I mean, do you think the divides are impassable or impassable?

Interesting word.

Not without passions, but yeah.

Go ahead.

And what are your thoughts?

Yeah, no, man, we we love progressive covenantalists.

We believe you're on the right road.

Very soon you'll get there.

So, you know, we're just waiting for you at the station.

No, we are so close on so many things.

David Schrock actually is one of the instructors, professors for the Institute of Public Theology.

David's very convinced of progressive covenantalism.

We had him in last week to teach systematic theology.

And, you know, we have some differences.

But as we talked through those differences, interestingly enough, he was here for a Sunday.

I'm preaching through Genesis.

And so I was preaching on the first Sabbath day when he was here.

And so we had lunch together in my home afterwards.

And we had a very fruitful conversation.

And I think I'm pretty sure I told him in that conversation or in a subsequent one when we continue to the

discussion that if everyone were to believe what he believes about these things,

I would die happy.

And I would never argue with anybody ever again because the concerns that he has are

right.

And I have for myself, we all have to have guardrails with our positions or else, if we're not careful,

some of the apparently necessary conclusions, necessary

deductions can take us beyond the scripture.

And so we need to be careful that we don't go beyond the scripture.

Calvin talked about a wise ignorance or a wise silence, you know, that we need to be willing to

have to just say, OK, I don't know.

I'm not going to speak because the Bible doesn't speak.

And that doesn't mean systematic theology shouldn't be done.

It has to be done.

But we have to do it humbly.

And in a similar way, what the way he described his progressive covenantalism, an approach to the

Lord's Day was so good.

It was so wonderful.

You know, again, we would have some some differences at the foundation as to why we might

approach the Lord's Day the way we do.

But practically speaking, there was not much difference in his understanding and my own

understanding and what we teach our church here.

So, you know, yeah, great friends.

Steve Willem, don't know him well, but all I know of him, I love and appreciate.

Never met Ken Gentry at all, but have others that would identify themselves in that camp.

And I think that, man, we're close enough to be allies.

Let's have our debates, but they ought to be fraternal in -house debates.

Amen.

And yeah, it's interesting sometimes when I'm talking to people about the Lord's Day, because I would say I'm a Lord's

Day, not Sabbatarian, but Lord's Day advocate.

And sometimes in that conversation, I would say sometimes it feels like it's just words.

And I know it's more than just words, but sometimes it feels like it's just how we're defining because, you know, we

worship on the same day.

We do generally the same things on the same day.

And we recognize that day as being distinct from the other days as the day Christ rose from the dead and those things.

And so there are so many places, as I said, we divide over so many

other things, not us, but I mean, the church in general.

And so I'm always trying to find ways that we can unite rather

than continue to subdivide into oblivion.

Amen.

I'm with you.

And I'm happy to have knock -down, drag -out debates with brothers that understand

that we're really brothers and we agree on so much.

So let's debate these things we don't agree on, but recognize this is not anything divisive.

It's genuinely I grew up with two older brothers and, you know, I understand

those kind of fraternal debates and I'm happy to have them.

But it's different than debating a Roman Catholic or debating a Muslim or debating a

pagan.

I mean, we're not talking about that.

We're talking about brothers and we're not even talking about broad evangelical brothers.

We're talking about brothers that are really close on so many things.

So as long as we keep that in mind, we can have wonderful, fruitful conversations.

Amen. Amen.

I had a Dr. Sam Waldron was on my show about three or four months ago.

It was, I guess, February now.

So several months ago.

And he was very, very much the same.

We kind of had a similar conversation about Sabbath.

He's a very strong Sabbatarian.

What's funny is I did a debate on the Sabbath with a Presbyterian.

And two days before the debate, Sam Waldron was brought into town to give his lectures on the Sabbath for three days.

So I got to sit under his lectures before debating.

So I felt like at least at least I had done, you know, all I could to hear the other side.

And he's a great brother.

And I was very encouraged by a lot of what he had to say as well.

So, well, since we mentioned, you know, where areas we divide and areas we come together,

a lot of people are pushing for division with the SBC.

But you stand strong as as part of the SBC, or at least have continued to stand strong.

And when I asked Twitter and Facebook, hey, what are some of the questions that that you'd

like to hear me ask, Dr. Askell?

One of the ones that kept coming up was about affiliation with the SBC.

And they all kind of came, I'm not going to read every question, but it all kinds of comes down to one,

is is staying in the fight with the SBC worth it?

Two, when is it time to get out of the fight or is there ever a time to get out of the fight?

And, you know, what's the future look like for the founders?

And I think that I think that maybe pulls all those questions into into something that you might be

able to to to respond.

Yeah, well, and those are questions I get all the time, so I'm not surprised people would raise them

in this context.

First, let me just say Founders Ministries, not all of our board members are Southern Baptists, you

know, certainly not all of our teachers and IOPT are Southern Baptists.

Not all of our authors are.

We're much broader than the SBC.

So we're Baptists.

We're confessionally Baptist.

But our roots, my roots are in the Southern Baptist Convention.

And that would be true probably for most of the people that are more intimately involved, but not certainly not all,

not by any stretch of the imagination.

And that's that's fine.

That's fine.

So founders is not the future of founders is not tied to any one

association or convention.

The SBC, the reason that I can stay in and fight, even when I lose votes, as I have done

pretty consistently the last several years, is understanding what the SBC is and what it's not.

I think for many, and I say this as one of whom it

was true in my younger life, the SBC becomes a significant part of

your individual or your church's identity.

And I grew up in Texas.

My parents were Southern Baptists, so I was raised in Southern Baptist Church.

All I knew, I went to college and since God was calling me to be a

pastor, even at that age, I had a roommate.

I remember my last year of college, who was a big inner varsity guy, and he gave me a book that he said it

really changed his life and so good for him.

And he wanted me to have a copy.

So he gave it to me.

I didn't even look at the title of the book that I recall, but I looked to see who published it.

And it wasn't Convention Press.

And since it wasn't Convention Press, I thought, you know, can't be that important.

And I just stuck it on a shelf.

Well, it wasn't until about three years later I was in seminary that I realized that book was Knowing God by J. I.

Packer.

And I just completely ignored it, discounted it because it wasn't Southern Baptist Press.

So that was my identity and way of thinking, too.

I ministered in College Station and then Dallas -Fort Worth for several years before moving to South Florida.

And it's funny, Keith, when I was in Dallas, you know, that was back in the

1980s, I guess, 1980 to 86 or so.

I was known as a rabble rouser.

In fact, my wife found a letter that I'd written to Southwestern Seminary while I was still a

student at Texas A &M complaining about the salaries of professors at Southwestern

Seminary being insufficient and and the presidential mansion at Southwestern.

I mean, it's a funny letter reading it.

She just she found it like two weeks ago or so and showed me and we had a good laugh about it.

But there in that heavy SBC identity context, I was

seen as, you know, one who's who's kind of an outlier and likes to stir up trouble.

When I moved from there to South Florida, I became like a denominational loyalist.

I remember after like the first or second year in this church, I had a young man come to me.

He was the son of a deacon, one of the only young guys by young.

I think he was probably in his 40s at that time.

And he came to me and he said, are you trying to make this a Southern Baptist church?

Because I'd referred to some things that were going on in the SBC.

And I said, no, it is a Southern Baptist church.

I'm trying to make it a better one.

And and he said, this is a Southern Baptist church.

So they just had no idea.

And so South Florida context to be SBC or not doesn't really matter.

So understanding that the association we have with other Southern Baptist churches in the SBC

is voluntary.

It doesn't impinge upon our autonomy at all.

It's not our identity.

We cooperate where we can.

We're grateful to be able to cooperate where we can.

But the the SBC doesn't dictate to us.

And it is not where we get our identity as a church.

We're happy to cooperate where we can.

And we want to see the SBC be better than it is.

It has been good in the past.

And there's some good things going on today.

But it's being steered by concerns that are godless.

And I'm not talking about people in the SBC being godless necessarily, but outside the SBC that want the

SBC to be a tool for godlessness.

And if you want a commentary on this with documentation, just wait until Megan Basham book her

book drops at the end of July.

Shepherds for Sale.

I've read it.

It's well documented.

It is a devastating analysis of how deep pockets outside Christianity

have tried to co -opt Christian organizations and churches, the largest of which in the evangelical world

is the SBC, in order to steer those organizations and churches to accomplish leftist

agendas.

And that's no conspiracy theory.

That's fact.

And the facts are documented very readily in this forthcoming book.

So because of that, I don't want to see the SBC be used like that.

It's not going away.

All the good churches can leave tomorrow and it's still going to continue on and it'll become increasingly like the

PCUSA or the United Methodist Church.

And I don't want to see that happen.

So our church participates and I try to fight for making it better.

What's the name of her upcoming book again?

I don't know.

Shepherds for Sale.

And I think the subtitle is something like how evangelical leaders have been co -opted

by large money donors or something like that.

But she documents how entities like the ERLC, the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission,

Southeastern Seminary, Campus Crusade, National Association of Evangelicals,

others have had money poured into them by influencers who want to get

them to be silent on things or to say things in a certain way that will

steer the culture down this horrible road of

wicked ideologies and to do so with increasing.

Speed.

Well, that's really scary and something that we all need to be aware of.

So I look forward to reading that book and and maybe having an opportunity to talk to her.

I'd love to do that.

We had her on the Sword and Trowel podcast that we do here at Founders several weeks ago, and she gave

30, 40 minutes just kind of specifically about the SBC that's in her book.

And it's eye opening.

So I would encourage you to get her on your podcast.

Amen.

Hey, I just want to mention, and you're in Florida, I'm in Florida, so you'll understand the weather just got really bad.

So in the event that I blank out, that just means that we lost power and hopefully it

doesn't happen.

But I don't want you to think I just walked away from the conversation.

It's just really loud right now and I can hear it.

Well, let me correct one thing, Keith.

I'm in Florida.

You're in South Georgia.

That's true.

Hey, hey, I agree.

I'm in Jacksonville, Florida, which is which is basically the southern tip of Georgia.

That's where we're at.

You don't get to Florida until you drive about five hours south.

You know, what's funny is we are in the safest area, it seems, for hurricanes.

And I say that with hoping I don't eat my word soon.

But, you know, just because of the way Florida is shaped, we get hurricane winds sometimes, but you guys get them

coming through and across.

And speaking of that, your church was damaged a few years ago.

How are things going with that, with the fixing all the problems and things?

Has it gone well?

Well, you know, it's a work in progress still.

We're almost two years out.

Hurricane Ian blew through and hit us dead on.

It was just a direct hit and massive winds and rain and flooding.

Just this week, we have come to what we think is an agreement with our insurance company,

but only after threats of lawsuit and going through all kinds of negotiations with them.

And we're settling for several hundred thousand dollars less than the damages that we assessed.

It's been that's that's kind of a common story around here.

And that's true for me personally with my own house as well.

We're still not settled with our personal insurance carrier.

We're trying to negotiate that, you know, two years out.

So God willing, we'll at least get that chapter closed and have some resources to

begin the repair work that needs to be done.

We patch things together and God's people were so kind.

We had generosity poured out upon us by churches and individuals literally from around the world.

And that that helped us instantly because we had immediate needs that had to be taken care

of.

And God has helped us with that.

So I wish our insurance company had kept their end of the deal, but we're not alone in those kinds of

negotiations.

So God willing, if it goes through this week, then over the next few weeks, we'll be able to make

the needed replacements and repairs that have been delayed.

Amen. Amen.

Yeah, we could we could do a whole other podcast on Florida and wind insurance.

Probably because we've we've had our own conversations with our with our insurance company about those problems.

So it's not fun when you live in basically the eye of the storm every.

Year.

Right. That's right. Yeah.

Well, I have some some kind of fun questions I'd like to ask you.

I mean, we've talked about some serious things and I've appreciated your being forthright on many things.

And but I also enjoy having some fun on the show.

And I had a few people just throw out some great questions.

And if you're OK, I'd like to just keep you on for a little bit more and ask you some some fun things.

Number one, are you a Glock or 1911 man?

That's a Glock.

Yeah, I'm a Glock.

I'm trying to switch over to completely Glock platform because I've been very eclectic through the years, which means

whatever was the cheapest and available is what I would try to get.

So I'm trying to just get on the Glock platform exclusively.

Amen.

Hey, I that's great.

I I actually bought a Ruger.

I think it's called a P9, but it's a rifle that holds Glock magazines.

So it's a nine millimeter rifle that I can shoot my my Glock 19 mags through it.

So it's pretty cool.

Yeah, I like that.

So what has been your most memorable book that you've published through Founders Press?

The one that you would say is, I guess I don't want to say most proud of, because I'm sure you're proud of all of them, but something that you would say, I'm so

glad we were able to get this out.

Man, yeah, it's tough to pick one, you know, Jim's book that I just showed you on the

1689 is a masterpiece.

It's going to be it already is a classic and it will be for years.

Fred Malone's book on the baptism of disciples alone was one of the earlier books we published, and

it is it will have a long shelf life as well.

You know, Al Mohler's most significant book on believers baptism written in the last 200 years.

And I think that's true.

Jim's son, Sam Renahan, wrote a great book as well

on 1689 federalism, the mystery of Christ.

And then I'd have to put in this one as well.

The first book that we published was by Richard Barcellas.

It was called In Defense of the Decalogue, and that was in the early days of some of these debates.

They weren't all carried out on a high level, but they were important debates about new covenant

theology and covenant theology.

And so Richard wrote this book.

And it's a long story of how we published it.

But anyway, by God's grace, we published it.

It was his first books, our first book to publish.

I think we'd done a little pamphlet that I wrote before that.

And then from that, because the debate continued to evolve and new

arguments, new insights were being shared back and forth and it got to be on a higher plane.

So, you know, it wasn't so acrimonious among those who were debating.

Richard was part of that.

I begged him and other people begged him, would you would you reprint it?

Because we went out of print.

He said, no, because some of the arguments need to be refined.

And, you know, the new covenant theology guys have developed some ideas that I want to

respect.

And so we went back and forth for years and years.

So finally, finally, I forget how I did it, but I shamed him into you got to do this.

You got to do this.

So he's working on it.

And in the process, realized, you know, what I'm doing here is a new book.

It's a new book.

And so that book became Getting the Garden Right.

And it is it is a wonderful book.

So there's a lot more, but certainly, certainly those would be at the top of the list.

And there couldn't be left out.

Amen.

Well, I appreciate you mentioning all those.

And you mentioned Sam Renahan, Jim's son.

Just so you know, and maybe you can share that.

I call him the the lesser and greater Renahans.

So and that's in no way to be offensive, but it's like you have the greater and lesser, you know, so so Sam is the lesser

Renahan, not not not certainly not an intelligence, but just an age.

The lesser.

All right.

So when it comes, you mentioned baptism of disciples alone.

What is your favorite Paedo -Baptist argument to dunk on?

Pun intended.

That's that's that's the person who asked.

I just I like the way they worded the question.

So like what's what's what's when they make this argument?

You just love to dunk on it or what's your favorite one to destroy?

That's well, you know, the Westminster Confession is lovely to quote about the regulative

principle of worship, that things ought not be done.

They're not prescribed in the word of God.

And I say, where is this infant baptism you speak of prescribed?

So I think that's a pretty forceful argument.

It's not that they're not they don't have responses to it, but I've not heard one yet.

That's been satisfying.

Amen.

Amen.

Actually, I I've done several debates, public debates on on on well, not several.

I've done a couple of debates on infant baptism, but the very first one I did was with an Anglican.

And that was one of the arguments I made was I said because he I thought, well, it's a long story.

The man was sort of wishy washy, and I thought he was going to make the argument from the Presbyterian position, but he didn't.

He was coming from an Anglican position.

So when I brought up the regulative principle, it didn't really apply to him.

So my part of my debate, it was a little off because it didn't really apply to what he was saying.

But but still, it was the argument I made.

I said, if this is the regular principle says we do what's prescribed, this is not prescribed.

Therefore, how do you come to this conclusion?

And it didn't really work because it was, you know, we were a little confused on where we're coming from.

So.

All right, so this one's always fun.

You may or may not know, but I sort of have a somewhat of a funny reputation online as being the king of the Amillennialists.

And I and I and it's a joke because I'm certainly not I'm not published in that area.

It's just something that happened on Twitter.

I wore a crown.

People called me the king of the Amillennialists and it was a joke.

But are you would you identify yourself in the camp of Amillennialism or

postmillennialism, or are you still a premillennialist?

I say still because most Baptists at least start as premillennialists.

So are you willing to say some guys aren't willing to say and it's OK if you're not.

No, I'm not a premillennialist.

I was, but I didn't know it.

That's just was raised.

So I describe myself now as a a postmillennialist with a low level of

assurance.

You know, so the optimistic Amillennialism, I think,

is a kissing cousin to postmillennialism.

And I'm happy in either one of those worlds in terms of how you look at specific things.

But I'm looking for the latter day glory.

I'm looking for an outpouring of God's spirit that day when the knowledge of the Lord will cover the

earth as the waters cover the sea.

And I think that's going to happen.

I think I think we're going to see a great revival.

I don't think I used to describe it this way after I read Jonathan Edwards when I was younger,

that I'm a revolutionary postmillennialist, not an evolutionary postmillennialist, because when I was

growing up, postmillennialism was associated with liberalism.

And I knew I was the world's not getting better and better every day in each and every way.

But I do believe that through the work of God's spirit, we will see

the multitude come in before our Lord returns.

Amen.

These two questions, they're going to go back to back.

And again, I know there could be longer questions.

In fact, I'm going to take a second to mention a book.

Recently, I had the opportunity to have a preview of the book, Dear Titus, that's coming out.

You guys are produced, had an opportunity to read that and write an endorsement for it.

Very thankful to be asked to do that.

And but this question sort of goes along the line of that.

And that's the question of what advice would you give to young men aspiring to pastoral ministry?

And then the second question is, what are the best ways to encourage a husband if you're the wife of a pastor?

I know that's two questions, but it sort of kind of goes together with the idea of encouragement.

And we've been talking about fighting a good fight, you helping me, you were such an encouragement to me.

It's 2024, things have changed in 20 years, things have changed in 40 years.

What are some of the advice that you would give today that might be unique to today?

Well, what I say to every Christian who asks me for this kind of general counsel is, man, find a healthy

church and build your life around it.

And if that requires a move, move, you know, but just do it.

There's nothing more significant in a practical day in and

day out basis than to do that.

So I would say something similar to a young man that aspires to the ministry.

Find a faithful church with faithful elders, not perfect elders because they don't exist, not a

perfect church because it doesn't exist, but faithful elders and go and submit yourself

to them and serve in that congregation, build your life around it.

You know, if you can do some formal theological education, that's wonderful.

Do that.

But that will not replace what you can gain in a faithful church that's being led by faithful

elders.

Just being a part of a church like that, breathing the air, seeing the rhythms of life, being a part of the

relationships is formative and it's very, very valuable.

So I would encourage every young man to attempt to do that.

And if you can do that in a context where there's a good opportunity for theological education, then man,

all the better.

But don't sacrifice a church for something that you think might prepare you better than a church

to engage in pastoral ministry.

In terms of what can a wife do?

Well, early in our marriage, my wife, when she married me, I was already a pastor.

So she knew what she was getting into in one sense.

And of course, in another sense, no pastor's wife ever knows what she's getting into in that role.

But we determined early on that her number one job was keeping me in the ministry.

So she didn't have to play the piano, though she did at times, or she didn't have to do children's work, though she's done that at

times or anything else.

Keep me in the ministry.

And that's because there's a lot of trials and a lot of temptations and a lot of Monday mornings you

feel like quitting.

And pastoral ministry.

And I found that the older I've gotten, the better that's gotten.

But nevertheless, it's still there.

Lots of discouragements.

You know, it's a it's a reality that when, you know, when a carpenter goes to

work, he works with hammer and nails and saws.

And those are tools.

When a pastor goes to work, he works with his heart.

And when a carpenter breaks a hammer, he'll get another hammer.

But when a pastor breaks a heart and sees it wounded, it's got to be healed.

You know, you can't you got to work anyway.

You can't stop working.

And learning to work, learning to minister with a bruised heart, with a broken heart,

can be hard.

And a wife is in a good position to help her husband with that.

One of the best things I think that has happened in our marriage is my wife has become just an exceptional

theologian.

She's not going to write any systematic theology books, but in terms of practical theology, she is

really good and she's learned.

And as she has learned and she's developed her own theological thinking and I don't want any wife of

a pastor to think, oh, my goodness, this means, you know, I've got to memorize Wayne Grudem's textbook.

We're not talking about that.

I'm talking about living in the word, living among the people of God and applying the word consistently

over time.

And she's done that in such a way that she doesn't let me get away with things

that I used to be able to get away with.

You know, a temptation among pastors or at least myself when I was in seminary was, you know, I

talk about the Greek or the Hebrew or this theological category or that.

And she'd be intimidated because she didn't have any of those tools.

She didn't have any references.

But as I hopefully have grown somewhat wiser and she's grown in her own

understanding of the word of God, she can recognize when I'm blowing smoke and call me on it or

whenever I'm cutting corners and call me on it or when I'm forgetting things that we both

believe and can help me remember.

So this is true.

I say this all the time to Christians in general.

You know, the best thing you can do for your husband as a wife is to become the most godly

Christian you can become.

Best thing you can do for your wife and husband is become the most godly Christian you become.

And as parents, it doesn't matter.

If you become increasingly godly, then the rest is application.

How do you apply true godliness in marriage, in child rearing,

in your vocation?

Go hard after Christ.

There's no substitute for that.

And you can pick up along the way from people that are more experienced than you and maybe have some wisdom in areas

through trial and error or through study or just giftedness.

You can pick up insights on application.

But those insights on application will do you no good if the root of the matter is not in you and you're not cultivating that

into a life of true godliness.

So I appreciate the question from any wife that wants to encourage her pastor husband because we

all need it.

But recognize as you are being faithful to Christ and you're growing in grace yourself, you're serving your

husband well.

Brother, I can't think of a better way to draw this show to a close as we're talking about fighting for the faith.

We're talking about staying in the fight and what you just said about growing in godliness.

I'm sitting here, I'm just like, I'm like, I needed this sermon today.

And I don't know if you've written that in a book or if you've preached that in a sermon, what you just said.

But I think every pastor and every pastor's wife would benefit from the last two minutes of what you just said.

And so I really don't want to, I don't want to try to add anything else to it.

I think that was a great encouragement.

And so I just like to end by saying I'm so grateful to you for the founders, for all that you guys have done in

my life, in the life of our church.

Sovereign Grace Family Church exists in one way because

you encouraged me to continue fighting the good fight.

So thank you.

Thank you for all that you do.

Thank your family for all they do and your wife and for giving your ministry, for

giving us this time today.

We're very grateful.

Thank you, brother.

Praise the Lord.

I appreciate all you're doing and just man, keep pressing on.

Amen.

Thank you.

I want to thank all you guys for being with us today for this show.

I hope it was an encouragement to you.

And again, this might be something if you're not a pastor, maybe share this with your pastor, it might be an encouragement to him

or to his wife.

But again, thank you for being a part of the show today.

Thank you for listening.

If you want to support the show, you can do so by going and buying a tiny Bible or just supporting us by going to buymeacoffee

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My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.

May God bless you.