May 9, 2023 Show with Anthony Uvenio on “The Resurrection: Fact, Fake or Futile?”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father, James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer, George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, and sports legend, Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27, verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this ninth day of May, 2023.

I'm thrilled to have back on the program after a long absence, a very dear friend of mine, Pastor Anthony Uvinio. Pastor Anthony Uvinio is one of three pastors at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, which would include Pastor Rich Jensen, the founding pastor of that congregation, and also Pastor Christopher McDowell.

And Anthony is also the co-founder of New York Apologetics, and we are not only going to be addressing a conference coming up that New York Apologetics is hosting in Hop Hog, Long Island, but we are also talking today about the theme of that conference, the resurrection, fact, fake, or futile.

And it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my old friend, Anthony Uvinio.

Thanks for having me, Chris, I really appreciate it. Look forward to a good show.

And I'm gonna give our listeners our email address right away. If you'd like to submit questions on the resurrection of Christ, the email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are in a liberal church, they deny the bodily resurrection of Christ, and you are not ready to publicly identify yourself as being in opposition to them, or something like that. Whatever the case may be that would compel you to remain anonymous, we will grant your request.

But please, if it's just a general question on the Bible, on theology, on doctrine, please give us your first name at least, your city and state and country of residence. Well first of all, tell us about Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York.

Yeah, we go every Sunday at 9 .45 starts our Sunday school, 11 o 'clock starts our service. We also have Bible study and prayer Wednesday nights at 7 p .m. So we're going through Proverbs with the men's breakfast on Saturday mornings, that's once a month, and Pastor Jensen is going through the book of Daniel on Sunday mornings, and it's really proven to be a terrific, terrific series.

Pastor does a great job, I put all the videos up on, if you wanna watch them on the Reform Rookie YouTube channel. So, especially considering the times that we're in now, Chris, you know, I mean, we're coming under fire as Christians, and our country looks like it's gonna implode, and we may end up being deported somewhere, who knows?

So this is, it might be a blessing, I mean, it was a blessing for Daniel, I mean, he, you know, him, Shadrach, and Abednego got deported and ended up rising to the top, you know?

Well, my own elders at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle are doing all they can to get me deported, so I just thought I'd let you know.

There's always room for you down here, pal, don't worry.

We got your back, don't worry.

Well, I wonder how long that would last, but anyway. And Hope is a confessional Reformed Baptist Church adhering to the 1689 London Methodist Confession, and firm believers in homeschooling and classical Christian education, and I just love visiting Hope when I am visiting Long Island.

It is my home away from home, and I know far more people there than I do from my own former church on Long Island, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island and Merritt, because every time I go there, it seems that the people there are new that were not there when, with few exceptions, are not folks that were there when I was a member.

So Hope has definitely become a home away from home for me. If anybody wants more details about Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, if you're visiting that area, if you already live in that area, or if you have family, friends, and loved ones in that area, and you want to refer them to an excellent church, hopereformedli .net, hopereformedli .net.

I have so many cherished, treasured memories of being at that church, and in fact, you weren't there at that time, but you can ask Pastor Rich Jensen about the youth retreats at the Tuscarora Conference Center in Pennsylvania, where they would have me go there for stand-up comedy, and I had some really wonderful memories with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries there, and I just can't say enough about this church.

Yeah, we hear a lot of things about those youth retreats, and I wish I was there. I heard there was a little High Hope song going on. And eventually, I guess it was prophetic, right? Dr. White came around.

For those of our listeners who have no idea what Anthony's talking about, I did a parody of post-millennialism, because Pastor Rich Jensen is a post-millennialist. He's been a post-millennialist as long as I've known him.

And I took the Frank Sinatra song, High Hopes, and turned it into a post-millennial song. And James White, I can remember saying, what are you gonna do for your little stand-up thing? And I said, well, I'm gonna sing a song called High Hopes.

He goes, let me do it with you. So we did it together, and the rest remains in infamy. Oh, and then James White, as you were saying, eventually, he was an amillennialist at the time, and now he is post-millennial.

So kind of an interesting turn of events. And now tell us about New York Apologetics.

Well, New York Apologetics is an organization that was started by myself and Nick Mitchell, and it spurred out of a debate that I had at Long Island University in Brookville with a professor from Hofstra University, Professor Amy Karofsky.

Oh, yeah, I saw that, I saw that. Yeah, right.

So what had happened was he found out that I was doing a debate, and he wanted to sit with me and go through some arguments with me. And he really actually helped coach me and got me to, because he really is a good atheist when he wants to be.

He was really pressing me, so he toughened me up, and the debate went very well. When I look back, I mean, I think she was a weak opponent, but it went very well, and a lot of the people who are on the, the kids who are on the campus wanted more of this.

So we started visiting them on a regular basis and teaching them apologetics, and that spurred into a website and a blog. And then a friend of Nick invited him to do a radio show, so him and I would do a Saturday morning radio show for a long time.

And lo and behold, we started setting up some conferences here. We had Greg Koukl, Frank Turek, Mary Jo Sharp, and then we even had our own Chris Arnzen come and moderate a debate at Stony Brook University between Dr. Frank Turek and Michael Shermer.

And it wasn't Chris's fault, but we got removed from Stony Brook University. We're not invited back there anymore, which is an, it wasn't your fault, though.

Actually, knowing Stony Brook University, I would have taken that as a badge of honor if it was my fault. So why don't you spread the rumor that it was my fault? I kinda like it.

Well, the funny thing was, you remember, Michael Shermer started pounding his fist on the podium saying, you'll see, you're gonna change your views, you're gonna hold to homosexual marriage, same-sex marriage.

And all he did was ask Dr. Turek, well, what's your view? And Dr. Turek simply answered and said, my view is the biblical view. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Nothing more than that. Well, the next day, a four-page scathing letter went to the president of Stony Brook University.

How could they possibly let a guy like this on the campus to put forth those views and hurt us emotionally and all this kind of stuff? So it actually started making waves online. AP Press picked it up.

Richard Dawkins commented on it. And the funny thing was, this letter actually united a Christian and an atheist. Dr. Turek and Michael Shermer got together and co-wrote a letter to Stony Brook University saying, this is the essence of free speech.

We have to be able to vocalize our views with one another. There was no harm done unless you consider ideas harmful.

And that's what colleges were all about for centuries. Universities, colleges, debate. I mean, even Berkeley, left-wing Berkeley had George Lincoln Rockwell, the founder of the American Nazi Party, speak there, not because they supported what he believed, but they wanted to see the interaction of ideas, even ones as horrifically evil, where both left and right-wing individuals typically are abhorred by the likes of the neo-Nazis.

In fact, technically, although most people would deny this, Nazis are left-wing, they're not right-wing. But they're national socialists. But in fact, to even go a step further, the original Nazis, before they became an enormous political machine, the majority of them were homosexuals.

But that's another topic for another time. But it's just amazing, it's disgusting, it's ridiculous. I mean, the whole idea of collegiate debate, you know, even liberals used to thrive on seeing things like this, debates between opposing views.

But these people aren't liberals, they're leftists.

Yes, I mean, the word university actually means unity of diversity. That's the whole point. We're supposed to be able to go and explore and share our ideas and learn from one another. We don't have to agree, but we certainly can love each other through it and learn from it and may the best ideas win.

So when you shut down one side, it just goes to show you that they feel threatened. And I think they feel threatened because the truth hurts sometimes.

Yes, and I remember very vividly that my presence there at that debate was almost useless because both Frank Turek and his atheist opponent threw out the rules and they both preferred just having an argument.

Yeah, at the end of it, I was hoping for this nice scholastic debate and it'll be a real exchange of ideas and it really turned into like a New York WWF match and people from the audience were shouting and clapping and I was like, oh.

And when I was trying to correct or chastise the atheist, Michael Shermer.

Michael Shermer.

Yeah, Frank said, no, no, Chris, I like it this way better. So I mean, what could I do? I mean, when you got both sides saying that's what they wanted to do.

Well, Turek's from New Jersey. He, it's kind of in him, so.

But anyway.

Your Popeye's done.

Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Yeah, you know, I have, I don't know how many friends that I've known for decades who call me during the show and it's like they don't know by now my show is four to six PM.

Some friends never listen to the show. Anyway, if anybody wants more information about New York Apologetics, go to NewYorkApologetics .com, NewYorkApologetics .com and we can't forget the Reform Rookie.

Tell us about the Reform Rookie.

Yes, Reform Rookie actually got started a little bit before COVID. And obviously during COVID was able to make, allow me to do more stuff. So I started a website just to teach people, beginners anyway, the basics of Reform Theology.

You know, the Doctrines of Grace, the Five Solas. We put up articles, blogs, videos, our Wednesday night Bible studies we put up there. So it's just designed to get people introduced to Calvinism and Reform Theology.

So I shouldn't say Calvinism that way, only because most people think that when you're reformed, it just means Calvinism. And it goes way, way, way beyond that. It involves a confession of faith and it involves the regulative principle worship.

There's so much more to it than just Calvinism. Of course, that's part of it that drives the theology, but it's just designed to get people to understand what it is, not to be afraid of it, because so many people hear the word Calvinism and they think you're a heretic.

And when you just start going through the scriptures and showing people what the Bible actually teaches, and if you could do it in a winsome and gentle and respectful manner, people seem to take it a little bit better.

So most of the people who I interview on the show, I start them off by talking about their testimony into Reform Theology. How did you become reformed? So that people who don't understand what Reform Theology is can listen to other people who are smart, who are theologians, explain how they came to an understanding of the doctrines of grace and how it's helped their walk with God and their biblical literacy.

And it's reformedrookie .com?

Yes, reformedrookie .com. And then you can go on YouTube, just type reformedrookie. We just recently got over 2 ,000 subscribers, so I was very happy about that. Yeah, the channel's grown, we're getting a lot of views.

In fact, Pastor Jensen's teaching on hermeneutics, part one has over 11 ,000 views, and part two has over 5 ,000 views.

Wow.

Yeah, so he did a really good series on hermeneutics. We did a series on the infallibility, yeah, the infallibility of the scriptures, which is doing great. One of the teachings that I did on the symbolism of the temple, part one and two, collectively, those got over like 12 ,000 views.

So people are watching it. I mean, it's basically a Reformed Baptist YouTube channel, so I don't think we're gonna start seeing millions of views, but whoever it is that comes on gets edified and comments and likes the teaching, so we'll continue to put it up.

Great, that's reformedrookie .com. Moving back, I forgot to mention something very significant. Moving back to the reformedrookie .com, I mean, not the reformedrookie, I just mentioned that. Moving back to newyorkapologetics .com.

Well, one of the things that you have done with this ministry was a very bold and courageous move on your part, because you have done something that is nearly unheard of, not only in Reformed Baptist circles, but in Pentecostal circles, where you have you and Nick Mitchell, the co-founders, you are on opposite ends of the cessationist continuationist debate.

You are a Reformed Baptist, as everybody knows by now, and Nick Mitchell is a Pentecostal, and I believe also an Arminian, or somewhere in that orbit, and yet you find things that you have in common that you're able to cooperate with one another, and I know that that will upset a multitude of Reformed Baptists, and a multitude of Pentecostals and Charismatics, but you have been able to pull it off, and tell us about that, your reasons for it, and how it's been going.

Yeah, sure, I think what we need to do as Christians is find common ground and work together on the things that we agree on. If we start focusing on the things that we disagree on, I think that there are no two Christians on the planet that believe exactly the same things, so we start drawing that circle smaller and smaller and smaller.

It's just gonna be me in a room, broadcasting to nobody, because nobody's gonna listen to me. Now, obviously the differences between myself and Nick are deep theological differences, and he defends his position, I defend mine, but the bottom line is we can love each other as brothers in Christ through it.

He's become a really good friend to me, and I've become a good friend to him, and we have a ball together. I don't wanna say it's similar to James White and Dr. Brown, because we're probably a couple of hundred IQ points lower, but a couple of hundred pounds heavier.

You know, but it's, it's,.

It's, I shouldn't say that about Nick. That's mostly about me. But, you know, look, I can love somebody who differs with me on certain theological issues. We're not going to co-labor on, you know, if he has a conference on, you know, the gifts of the Spirit, I'm not gonna be co-laboring with him on that.

It's the same way as if I have a conference on the doctrines of grace. He's not gonna be like, yeah, oh, let's go, let's push that. And we have to recognize that we are gonna have differences between one another, but if he is born of God's Spirit, and I am born of God's Spirit, what unites us is much, much stronger than what divides us.

Yes, and you are not compromising at all. You are just, your unity is involved in the areas where you do agree, which are the salvific areas of the Scripture.

Sure, yeah, like him and I, you know, and we've said it at certain events that we've been at together. You know, he'll say, look, I'm an Arminian, and Anthony's a Calvinist. We both believe that we're saved by grace through faith, and that and not of ourselves.

It's just a matter of how we get into Christ that we differ on.

And he is not a dangerous, heretical, word-of-faith Pentecostal or anything like that.

No, no, no, no, not at all, not at all. No, he loves the Lord, he prays, he reads the Scriptures. He keeps me sharp because, you know, I have friends like him and another dear friend of mine who considers himself a provisionist, who knows the Scriptures backwards and forwards.

And whenever I have talks with both of these guys, they're constantly, you know, pushing against my position and giving the Scriptures that they hold and the way they see them. And it causes me to go back to the Scriptures to look at and examine what they're saying and see how I can either better articulate my position and understand their position better and understand ultimately what God's Word is actually saying with regards to these things.

So, and the other thing is the people who know us know that we have disagreements, but they see the love and the unity that we have with one another. And I think that goes a long way, especially when you're doing apologetics.

And even apologetically, you know, I've come to a presuppositional understanding of apologetics, Nick is evidential. So, you know, I'm able to show people the reason why I hold to presuppositionalism, he holds to evidentialism.

And I think that's a consequence of our theology. You know, my theology, Reformed theology, says that, you know, man cannot come to Christ unless the Spirit draws him. And it has to be the work of God first in the person's mind and heart.

Whereas on Nick's position as an Arminian, he believes that the evidence is useful and can draw somebody to Christ. And I would agree that God uses the evidence to do that. You know, so the differences are big, but God is bigger than that in the sense that he brings his church together.

We have to start working on the unity of the faith and present a united front to the people who are on the outside looking in, saying, you guys can't even get along with yourselves. And now you want me to be a Christian and jump into your church.

And then now you're gonna fight between, you know, who believes in the gifts of the Spirit, who believes in cessationism. Now, I believe those things are very, very important.

I really do.

And I stand my ground on my position and he stands his ground. But again, both of us are born again Christians. So, and God designed it and orchestrated it this way. And until we get to the perfect unity of the faith, we have to work through it.

Amen. And I, for one, think it's refreshing. And as long as I've been hosting Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, starting in 2005, I've always publicly, and it's well known that I take a staunch cessationist position.

I've had guests who are extremely critical of Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement. But at the same time, I've also had Pentecostal and charismatic pastors and authors on the show when they are saying something, when they want to say something that is of value, I think, to the body of Christ, when it's something that we can agree upon.

So, in fact, one of my dearest friends who's now in heaven, Al Stein. I don't know if you ever met Al Stein.

I did once at one of Bruce Bennett's conferences.

Yeah, that's right. He spoke at it.

Yes.

Yes, Al Stein was the pastor of Neighborhood Assembly of God in Belmore, Long Island. He was eventually a Assemblies of God bishop. He was an overseer for all the churches on Long Island, all the Assemblies of God congregations on Long Island.

And when I first met him, he was a five-point Arminian, but very inquisitive about the Reformed faith. And one of his favorite speakers and authors of all time was none other than John MacArthur, very clear in his opposition to the Pentecostal and charismatic movement.

Well, Al eventually became a full-fledged, thoroughgoing five-point Calvinist. And he was a guest on my show frequently, and even before he was a Calvinist. And he was able to get by the Assemblies of God scrutiny over the one issue of Calvinism that they vehemently disagreed with that you could not embrace is eternal security and remain in the pastorate.

And they had a misunderstanding about what that, and maybe still do, about what that means. They take the heretical Charles Stanley understanding of that, that you could live like, you could come to Christ in saving faith, genuinely be saved, and then live like Satan in the rest of your life and still go to heaven.

Obviously a non-biblical and non-Calvinist understanding of that. So he, when he had to fill out his form, he said he believed in evidential security. In other words, that if you are truly secure in Christ, your life is gonna give evidence of it.

And they were fine with that. So he was able to maintain his pastoral post and even became a bishop. And then tragically went home to be with the Lord after an automobile accident a number of years ago.

But I'm just told that to say that I'm on the same page with you. And also, of course, you know, Jim Capo. Former pastor of the Massapequa Church of God, who also became a five-point Calvinist. And was almost a cessationist, but never quite reached that point.

And now he is retired and living in Florida. But anyway, I hope you're listening, Jim, because I do truly miss your fellowship, brother. So

I miss him as well. I miss him as well.

Well, we are going to our first break right now. And when we come back, we are going to be addressing the theme that Anthony is going to be also addressing with Nick Mitchell and Tim Fox at the New York Apologetics Conference coming up.

But we'll also hear more details about that. The theme, the resurrection, in fact, fake or futile. If you have questions, send them to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Anthony Uvino right after these messages from our sponsors.

Please don't go away. And just a reminder to Anthony Uvino, please put your mic on mute during the breaks. And 99 of our guests do not remember to do that. So I just hope that you will do that.

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I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland. Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area. Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards. And Dr. Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism.

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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar.

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Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers.

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Praise God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.

For the perfect custom-designed engagement ring or any one-of-a-kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications, Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step-by-step through every stage of the process and even hold a high-tech internet virtual visit using state-of-the-art jewelry design technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you. From rough design to digital model, to photo-realistic image, to wax prototype model, to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations. Visit royaldiadem .com, that's royaldiadem .com today. Sterling Vandewerker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager, Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.