April 15, 2016 Show with John Cardwell on “To Be a Pilgrim: A Modern Christian Allegory Inspired by John Bunyan’s ‘The Pilgrim’s Progress'”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listeners, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on

the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday

on this 15th day of April 2016.

And I'm very happy that after a long absence, we have returning to

the Iron Sharpens Iron program, John Cardwell, a very talented brother in

Christ and a man who loves and has a passion for spreading and defending

and proclaiming the gospel of sovereign grace.

And we are going to be discussing a very brave undertaking he

has ventured into.

He has written a new book called To Be a Pilgrim, a modern Christian allegory

inspired by John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron after a very long time and welcome you for the

first time to the all -new Iron Sharpens Iron, John Cardwell.

Brother Chris, it's great to be back.

It has been a couple of years since I've been on.

In fact, it was from John Bunyan's I was on

last time.

Yeah, well, we were on a hiatus for about four years and then we finally

relaunched by God's grace in June of last year.

And I'm glad that I'm getting reconnected with old friends that were wonderful

guests in the past.

And please give our listeners an update on what you're doing before we even get into

the subject of your book.

Yes, sir.

I'm glad to.

Yeah, I've come a long way.

The Lord has brought me on my own progress, my own pilgrim's progress.

I was a former Navy deep sea diver and the Lord saved me while I was in the Navy and called me in the

ministry after many years in the Navy and that took us to the

Philippines, to

the mid -bush Alaska.

What they thought was Lou Gehrig's disease, but it turns out it was Long's disease.

And my wife wouldn't give up.

Not only was the church praying for us as we left Alaska, I was

still walk around in 2009 at Sovereign

Grace Baptist Church

of the congregation and the diligence from my

wife, she wasn't, she believed that the Lord wasn't ready to call me home at

that time.

And so searching out on the internet and so forth, it turns out where I

got a VA, it was rescinded

and aggressive antibiotics.

Well, for anybody who might think that this is not that

serious of an issue or they're just totally ignorant about Lyme disease, because I think it's

predominantly people on the East Coast that have gotten that.

But a very close friend of mine's daughter passed

away from that.

So this was some serious matter that should not be underestimated.

That the Lord delivered John from.

And we thank the Lord that he has left you with us for a while longer.

Thank you.

And so, by the way, I want to introduce you for the first time on the air anyway,

to my co -host who's been with us for quite a number of weeks now, probably what is

it, about two months now?

Two months, about two and a half months.

Reverend Buzz Taylor.

And why don't you introduce yourself to our guest, John Cardwell.

Well, John, it's good to meet you on the air finally.

Hey, Reverend Buzz, good to hear from you too, sir.

Yes.

And forgive me if I go back and forth mispronouncing your very easily pronounced

name with only two syllables.

For some reason, I keep saying Cardwall and it's not Cardwall, it's Cardwell.

But people butcher my name all the time and it's only got two syllables as well.

So anyway, well, this book that you've written,

this either proves that you are very confident of your writing ability or you are

a stark raving lunatic to be actually taking a priceless,

cherished, beloved book, an allegory as it's called, The Pilgrim's Progress,

and doing anything with it at all.

And what led you to want to even venture into these waters here?

A lot, a lot, a lot of prayer, brother.

I thought you were going to end that sentence with tequila, but a lot of prayer.

But what was the catalyst that said, you know, I've got to make The

Pilgrim's Progress something that has a version of it or a

story that is inspired by it that is more contemporary?

What was the catalyst behind that?

Yes, sir.

Actually, a few years back, somebody, very well here in Alabama in the southeast,

folks that know me, and actually wherever we administer, folks know that I,

Spurgeon and Bunyan have been basically my two greatest teachers.

And Bunyan in particular, I've read all of his works.

The Pilgrim's Progress I probably have read since the Lord saved me in 1985.

I've read it at least, the part one I've read at least sometimes twice a

year.

It is a gem, it is a treasure, and I think it's possibly the latter.

I'm a stark -raving lunatic.

It's a day -trim or something like that.

But after several years of prayer, when it was prompted, actually it was somebody here in Birmingham.

They're about an hour west of us.

We get a more assess of The Pilgrim's Progress, and I just laugh.

You know what, it's probably easier for you to teach your children at least BCNR.

And personally, I've never

really liked modern versions.

I've read some modern, today's English versions, some modernized versions.

I've read children's versions.

Yeah, in fact, there have been Arminianized versions and even a Roman Catholic version.

How could you get, I mean, you can't get too, it's an oxymoron to

do such a thing.

Yes, of course.

It's like an

idea of a

young lady type of

virus it is.

And it mimics, like, Lou Gehrig's disease or Parkes -Huntington's.

I actually

developed, I

actually dreamed my favorite book,

and having Bunyan,

Graham or anything,

but got

me thinking about the prompting.

Well, even more, maybe even more criticism, actually.

And perhaps it would be good for, I mean, sometimes we take things for granted when we do a show like

this, and we think that everybody listening has got to be familiar with the Pilgrim's Progress, but obviously

there are not only new Christians that I discover who listen to Iron Sharpens Iron,

but there are even non -Christians and even people who are Muslim and people of all types of

backgrounds who do listen to this program on occasion.

So we should probably first let our listeners know something about

the original, the Pilgrim's Progress, John Bunyan.

He should be an inspiration to everyone, no matter what walk of life you come from,

because John Bunyan was what they called back in the 16th century a

tinker,.

Or was he, he was actually the 17th century, correct?

Correct.

Yeah, 17th century, he was a tinker, and that is a mender of pots and pans.

He had very little education of any kind, formal education, and yet the man was even

recognized for his brilliance in his day and at some point

was welcomed into the pulpit of John Owen, who was recognized

universally in his day as one of the most brilliant living scholars of

his time.

And so this is a fascinating man who writes this book, The Pilgrim's Progress, while in

prison, and he was arrested and thrown in prison for preaching the gospel without

an Anglican minister's license.

And if you could just continue from there and let our listeners know something about it.

Oh, yes, sir.

Yeah, absolutely.

His life was very interesting as a Puritan, born in 1628, died in 1688.

And he was a tinker, he was actually even in the army, and he related

as one who had been converted to Christianity.

In his own testimony, he also wrote an autobiography, if you will, called Grace

Abounding to the Church.

And this somewhat parallels it in the sense that much of what Bunyan writes is

not just of the thing in an allegorical form of

biblical truths concerning Christianity and salvation, but much of it is

even personal.

It is what they call explicit for the most part.

In fact, one part is the main character,

Christian,

talks

about just

before

they

get to the

selections,

one of which,

in conformance, you weren't a part of the Church of England and you were preaching within five miles of an Anglican church by

the Lord.

He would preach wherever the Lord,

consequently, he was arrested in 1660

and it was a time where he was able to

read and write, and also

write to help not only spread

the publications, though he wrote in prison, most of them came after his

release in 1672.

But he had to pay for his family a while in prison, it's not like the prison system we have

here in the United States today.

He had to pay for his cabbage water and sleep on his

chicken -stood moldy...

That's exactly where Reverend Buzz is sitting right now.

Yes, yes.

Sorry about that.

He had to support

his ministry on cabbage water

basically for the most part and he ended up getting

a bit of a day even in the

gospel of his family.

The Bunyan's

life story, being

one

of the

temporaries in the 1600s, being considered one of

the men like William Defoe

or William Blake,

Owen, John Owen, allowed him to...

Yeah, that also says, I think, a lot about John Owen, because here is a man who

had quite a prestigious position in the church and in the minds of

many, and still does, and yet he would let this lowly tinker

sit behind or stand behind the sacred desk in his church, the place where

John Owen himself preached and taught.

And I think that that says a lot about him.

There are, unfortunately, there are many men of God today, or

many pastors today, who don't like to share their pulpit with anybody

and here you have a brilliant man like John Owen, who never needed to share his pulpit with anybody, but

saw in Bunyan a man of great gifts that needed to be

witnessed and experienced by the church and the lost who came to hear

the gospel.

And now, I'm just out of curiosity, one thing I failed to

mention in my introduction of you is that you are

the pastor of Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Anniston, Alabama,

and when you are writing something like this new book of yours, and you've

written other things as well, do you have to go into a sabbatical to do this, or are you able to,

amongst your other pastorly duties, put your mind to these

things in your study, or wherever else you may do them, and roll up your sleeves and get to work on these books?

Yes, sir.

It's a town that is absolutely, really well known.

In fact, I think that when somebody mentions Anniston, if you don't put Alabama there, they think you're talking about

trips.

Or the headache pills.

Yeah, we're halfway in between Birmingham and Atlanta, so it's like John

Bunyan, and it's not

a well -known

place, and here I'm comparing you to bite my tongue.

But where Bunyan would have been the first to say, don't compare yourself with me,

which you are, and then repent with all speed.

So, now that we know something of the background, and in addition to what you've already said about the Pilgrim's Progress, or about John

Bunyan himself, the book is basically, isn't it, taking

the experiences that most human beings go through from

the unbelieving, lost, and unregenerate stage through

they leave this earth and enter into heaven?

Oh, absolutely.

And even with that, there are certain things that maybe not everyone would

experience exactly like that, and this is why I believe that it takes the form of

Charles Spurgeon had written in his pictures of the Pilgrim's Progress, in his introduction to it, and has preached about it,

that Bunyan's not infallible, and gave

an illustration of the slew of

despond prior to, and why didn't he

just go to the cross?

Well, I, as writing and

understanding, recognized many things that he had

to go through.

He had to

have what represents the guilt and shame of sin.

He amplified that.

A love of it,

85, and a very, I

can't do

anything to

be

saved, so you might as well strike me down now and send me to hell, if I cannot be saved,

if I cannot repent.

And I believe that Bunyan felt that way,

so he, even prior to his coming to the cross, he expressed

being able for

the Lord to bring such a man as he.

Sometimes it happens more instantaneously with others, so they might not relate.

And there'll be some places, the original one, where

people that I was so taken

with, not just speak of, I believe.

By the way, you describe your own conversion experience as being a Calvinistic

conversion experience as well.

I might dare to say that everyone's conversion experience is a Calvinist

conversion experience.

I'm not saying that only...

Oh, you're absolutely right.

They all are.

And I'm not intending to mean by that that Arminians aren't converted.

What I mean by that, whether they recognize it or not, their conversion experience

is a Calvinistic one.

Too shame, brother.

Shame on me.

But so give us...

Obviously, we don't want you to give away the store, I think is the phrase.

We don't want you to reveal everything about the book.

It wouldn't be possible anyway in the half -hour time that we have left.

But let our listeners know something about how you transform the classic

characters from The Pilgrim's Progress, like Christian and others, and some of the enemies

of the gospel that he confronts.

How do you transform that into the modern day?

With great care and fear and trembling.

That's the short answer.

But really, and it's not really giving away the story either, because folks who

love The Pilgrim's Progress,

if

it's like,

and that

he

would

be

criticized by writing some,

I didn't want

to write

this and utilize the whole thing,

and take some right into the Celestial City.

I mean, I couldn't change the name of the Celestial City without actually

transforming the book.

But others, for example, he's called the Man in Rags,

and he's mentioned, I took from

Save Me, while we were there, a Navy deep -sea diver,

but not getting

over -labored with or wrinkled.

The book is in novel form so that it can flow a little bit.

He goes

in to be a 3D

in -command

at the high command, actually send a

pilot or the

master from

borders, sovereignty of God,

looking at the life that we,

and so that is

the character meets at

the pliable.

The pliable, I say, what do you think of when I say pliable?

Paper towels.

Yeah.

And I've gone through somewhat over the last five years, I've gone through kind of an interview process, you know,

informal interview process, and I would ask somebody, look at this, look at that.

Well now, due to the recent Republican primary debates, we might think of Donald Trump as being

pliable.

Or is that flexible?

I'm sorry.

That's an allegory in itself.

So NB is

his name, and let's see, oh.

And even with that, you know, I deviated from the original program's progress, whereas,

you know, he used terms that were quite familiar in that day, so

changing them around to after Christian,

Christian Newman is his name.

He's known as the man of rags, but I call him Newman, as in 2 Corinthians 5, verse 17, if

any man be in Corinth, he is a new creature, a new creation.

And I used the ESV.

I'll have you back when you do one in the NASB, since they sponsor my show.

Yes, yes.

Oh, excuse me.

Did I say the...

In fact...

In fact, that's where

we actually have to take a break right now,.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for John about his new allegory, his

new version of the Pilgrim's Progress to be a pilgrim, our email address is chrisarnson at

gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back with John Cardwell.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orensen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest for the first hour of the program is John

Cardwell, who is the pastor of Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Anniston, Alabama.

He has been a missionary pastor in Alaska and a missionary in the Philippines and a

former Navy deep -sea diver.

Today we are discussing his book To Be a Pilgrim, a modern Christian allegory inspired by

John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com.

Chrisorensen at gmail .com.

We do have a listener in Lindenhurst, Long Island, CJ, who asks, I have heard

that The Pilgrim's Progress was the only book that

came near to the sales globally of the Bible.

Is it still in the ranking that high?

I'm not aware if it's lost its position there, but do you know, John, at one

time for many years, if not centuries, it was the second best

-seller book compared to the actual Bible?

Yes, sir.

I tried to research that to see if there were still any covered statistics, but I think

the longevity, the second most

purchased book and the second most read book in the English language, second

to the King James Version of the Bible.

Even with the advent of self -publishing being so easy,

because the market has been

others, the

other books, would actually somewhat...

That could change, but I doubt it.

I think that the last couple hundred years in its sales and in its readability

allows it to stay right at the top.

So if you could pick up where you left off before the break, letting our listeners know about the allegory that you've

transformed for modern use.

Yes, sir.

Well, I realized too while we were on break that I didn't really fully answer the

question as a pastor.

I just have to take time or find time or carve out time in order to write.

And a lot of that,.

Sometimes it flows from the natural or the supernatural aspect of creating

or presenting sermons.

It actually convinced me that an allegory is a good

thing, continuing to write.

Because I got to a period of, why should I waste time writing?

I have so few hours in the day to spend with my family, to just do

it.

But I realized that this gives me time to be able to

minister.

And also as far as the allegory, that's where some of the critiques came in Bunyan's day.

They still come today.

By those who look at a very skewed view of the regulated principle,

I wouldn't be able to preach the good scriptures.

Right.

That is a point that I don't know how the, as much as I love my brethren who are exclusive psalm

singers, I don't know how they get around that.

Now you mentioned at the beginning that you had seen, well, it kind of got tossed around,

that there were other versions of Pilgrim's Progress that were about on the landscape.

I'm wondering if there's any other attempts to do what you have done.

I'm familiar, I'm not sure if you're familiar with, I guess this is a question also.

Are you familiar with what Nathaniel Hawthorne did with the Celestial Railroad?

I'm familiar with it.

I actually probably should have read this.

I probably should have read it before I embarked upon it,.

But had I,.

I think I perused it some years ago.

But I'm glad that I didn't because I think it might have

influenced me to go in a completely other way.

I know that I didn't want, at first I thought, well maybe if I just write a

commentary version of this and only change some words slightly, that would

help readers out, or write a workbook.

And I know that there are those here.

And finally, I came to the point, well, why don't I just, as this was Bunyan's story, as I've come

over the last 30 years.

Reading Bunyan,.

I've come to realize, well, this really is his story.

So why don't I write it,

experience it at the time that Bunyan was, because he didn't

quite experience it in the way that he had written about it.

For example, towards the end when Christian and Hopeful

were crossing the river, and

Hopeful was trying to encourage the sinking,

and not worthy to go across

the picture that John Bunyan presents.

And like I said, he did call himself Little Phase

at one point in the conversation.

I got to the point

where he propped up.

All around me.

And my wife had to call up all.

And during that night, I was

crying and I felt, am I ready?

Am I

drawing us closer than he has, as our

salvation is nearer.

And at the right time, but immediately I was drawn

to

that scene in my

story.

And I hope some of the elements, many of the elements I found

were the whole

fit in 1985 -86.

I actually gave up prayer.

I surrounded me with Christians.

I mean, to find a Navy diver, Navy SEAL,

it didn't exist.

And mounded by Christians.

In fact, I got to introduce you, if you don't already know him, to a brother in Christ who loves the doctrines

of Sovereign Grace, who is a missionary in Italy, and he was a Navy SEAL.

I think, what is his name?

I don't know if you can say his name on the air.

He told me that he preferred not to be publicly identified as a Navy SEAL for some reason.

But he is a Navy SEAL.

And I think somebody complained when he was on my program that I should not

have included that on his bio on my website.

Even though he was a Navy SEAL, there was some kind of, there was some kind of a tradition or

something about not...

Yeah, they don't exist.

Right.

I could tell you I was, but I'd have to kill you.

People ask me that all the time.

Were you a Navy SEAL?

Because I actually joined the Navy to be a SEAL.

I wanted to be a Navy frogman since I was seven years old and I got to do it.

But with people asking, so were you a Navy SEAL?

I said, no, I was a garden variety diver.

I was a Christmas SEAL.

And one of the things that we should probably do some damage control on,

just because of the fact that, as you know, most of our fellow Sovereign Grace believers or Calvinists

or Reformed Christians, whoever you want to describe it, most of them are cessationists.

So maybe you should clarify this story you told about the dream that you had regarding this book.

Oh, yeah.

We all have dreams,.

And I'm a cessationist myself.

The normal operation of God.

You know, I am a true...

of life in Jesus Christ.

Amen.

A dead person physically unto life and so forth.

It's like scripture.

I just actually edited, and it wasn't an edit for a modern translation.

And

that's

not

the

allegory.

My mind read and

come

automatically.

You know, something occurred to me about how appropriate a story like Pilgrim's

Progress is for today.

Because unlike Bunyan's Day, with modern technology

and people hearing all kinds of different voices in

alternative ways to find peace, truth, heaven,

etc., bombarding the average individual, you know,

multiplied by many times over than when Bunyan was alive and wrote the original Pilgrim's Progress.

I would think that this would be a very applicable story for today because of all

the different, not only kinds of theology that are claiming to be Christian that are facing the

average person who is searching for truth, but all the

alternatives to Christianity.

You know, I mean, it's just...

Obviously, there were many religions and false Christianities in Bunyan's Day too, but the fact the

media has just not only been a blessing for the Gospel, but it's also been an aid

to Satan's cause and all the false voices that are confronting each of us every day

through the media.

Absolutely.

As you said, it's a blessing.

There are things from Bunyan's Day where he cuts it down to.

Two giants.

So you mean

you've

actually included.

Rick Warren in your version?

Not by name.

And he's not at the one of the giants.

The giant is called Purpose.

Where there were the flatterers, I actually did have something

Peter and a crystal.

Actually, it's Mark Edding.

Mark Edding.

Mark Edding, I love that.

He's somebody who's been in advertising most of my life.

I get a kick out of that.

And the funny thing is, this is one of the ways that I've actually been able to try to supplement my income because Anniston is a

small town.

And when you're preaching grace, preaching Christ and Him crucified,

how did

you find us?

We're not a large congregation, so I supplement my income through that.

But income is I actually learned from writing.

I became a copywriter, and I started marketing this small to local businesses.

And I know how to...

Knowing the principles of marketing and having studied that for...

diametrically upon...

I mean, I knew that before.

I added

lions

that

are

takers.

I called them in

this line

over here.

Well, that's great.

Some of those things, thank you

for reading, and

I

have

it

in...

Have you ever been in touch.

With Barry Horner?

I'm sorry?

Have you ever been in contact with Dr. Barry Horner?

No, I haven't.

I'd like to get him a copy.

Yeah, I'll put you in touch with him.

I'll tell you, Chris, I'll switch over to NASB if I can get a copy out to James White.

Oh, sure, sure.

I'll make sure you get a copy, definitely.

Yeah.

It has been enjoyable to just go through it.

Anytime that I can go through the Pilgrim's Progress, I

still...

The reason why,.

Just for our listeners.

Who have no idea why I brought up Dr. Barry Horner is that he is probably one of

the foremost experts living on John Bunyan and the Pilgrim's Progress, and he does a

masterful job doing a public presentation that

he tailors according to what your church has time for, like between one and three hours

or four hours long, but he really can go into some exhaustive details about Pilgrim's

Progress, and I've seen him do it, the presentation, probably four times, and I was never bored,.

And there was always.

Something new I learned every time I saw it, so I just highly recommend him for those

types of things, but I want to make sure that you, John, give our listeners what you

most want etched in their hearts and minds before we run out of time.

I know that you could only be on with us for an hour, and so we've got about three and a half minutes left for you, so if you could just

leave our listeners with what you most want them to remember.

What I most want you to remember is that whether you pick up a copy of To Be a Pilgrim or even The Pilgrim's

Progress,.

The Word of God.

Called the past,

and that our faith

lives through.

You get nothing else than if you stay on.

Well, definitely.

Let our listeners know how they can get in touch with the church that you pastor, and obviously

also how they can order your book.

Oh, yes, sir.

It's available on Amazon .com because it has been edited to, it's been proofread,

and rather than wait, rather than do that, I

wanted to make it available.

I could have waited and just wanted

to get the book

on Amazon .com, just type in To Be a Pilgrim,

it would come up.

It's $12 .95 in paperback.

And $3 .99,.

And please, if you're reading a review.

About it,.

And your website.

Is JohnJCardwell .com?

That's one of them, and then I have a ministry site, PreachingChristCrucified .com.

PreachingChristCrucified .com and JohnJCardwell .com, and John, by the way, is spelled J -O -N

-J -Cardwell .com.

Well, it's been a great pleasure having you on the program, John, and I definitely want to have you back on

to address another subject with you, and please keep praying for Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio and spreading the word about it.

Yes, sir.

I'm glad to know that you're back up on the air, Chris, and it was great talking with you.

Yeah, it's great talking to you as always, and it brings back some memories of the old show, and I'm

looking forward to having you back many more times in the future.

Thank you, brother, and Reverend Buzz, great meeting you.

Thank you very much.

Good meeting you, brother.

All right.

Well, God bless you, brother.

God bless.

Bye -bye.

And I hope our listeners stay tuned because we're going to be joined any moment now with our

second guest today, Bill Johnson.

Bill Johnson is the Senior Director of New York

Gospel Ministries.

I had the pleasure of meeting him a few months ago when I was visiting New York City for a

sermon audio conference that was actually titled The Foundations Conference, and it was

being led by Sermon Audio, and Pastor Bill Jones happened to be there and gave

a brief presentation about New York Gospel Ministries, and I'm excited to have him on the program today about all the

things that he is doing there in New York City along with his

co -director there, Director of Ministry Development, Andy Woodard, who I also

met at the conference.

But if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Bill Jones, our email

address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

Our second guest for today is Pastor Bill Jones and he is the

Senior Director of New York Gospel Ministries.

Dr. William Jones and his family moved to New York City shortly after the terror attacks of

September 11th.

Prior to coming to the city, he established churches in Hendersonville, North Carolina and Brookfield, Wisconsin.

Pastor Bill is a preacher of righteousness and desires that all people would come to personally experience

the imputed righteousness of Christ through the new birth.

Some of the unique focuses of his ministry are sharing the gospel through the Hebrew and New Covenant

scriptures and ministry to the poor and widows.

And I believe that the Bible has something to say that that's a pure religion undefiled, correct?

To reach out to the...

Sounds like a biblical thing to do.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Bill Jones.

Well, thank you so much, Chris.

It's a joy to...

So thank you very much for this opportunity.

Well, first of all, kind of give us some history about New York Gospel Ministries.

Well, I tell you, when I was pastoring the church in Hendersonville, North Carolina, I had a

gentleman from the New York Mission.

To the Jews,.

An older gentleman,.

Contact me and say,.

Bill, I want to come and give a report.

Of what the Lord is doing in New York City.

Now, people in our church have been supporting him in the mission.

For a number of years, but I've never met him personally.

So he came to Hendersonville,.

North Carolina,.

And the Sunday.

That he was with us, he looked at me when we were having lunch.

And he said, Bill, I believe.

You're my replacement.

In New York City.

And I kind of laughed.

I had a friend that had pastored in New York City contact me a few months earlier,.

And he had wanted me.

To come take a church he had planted in Brooklyn.

He wanted to plant another church in Manhattan.

I was on the phone about five minutes with him and I said, there's no way.

That I'm going to leave.

Western North Carolina.

In my life,.

I should have said, there's no way I'm going to leave North Carolina.

And go to the Bahamas.

But the Lord has a way of taking you where he wants you to be.

That's right.

And it was from that initial conversation that we made a trip, my new pastor and I made a trip to New York City.

I'd never been in the city,

some days at the mission,.

And then I went all over New York.

And I saw the city because all the diversity, the

subway,.

And so that was.

My first introduction to New York City.

People and adults from our church and held open air meetings.

When we got back.

To North Carolina,.

I just went up to my wife.

And said,.

You folks are moving.

That's where our journey.

With New York began, and it was shortly after that that we formed the New York

Gospel Mill to help me.

Be accountable to a board of men, and they worked with me to

help raise the funds.

In New York City.

And start our ministry.

And I want to also introduce you, Pastor Jones, to my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Hello, Pastor Jones.

Well, nice to meet you,.

My friend.

We have similar roots.

I worked the summer in Hendersonville.

This is going way back to the summer of 1979, to give you some idea.

Okay.

What did you do there?

I worked in a Lowe's warehouse.

I was actually working in a church and living in Mountain Home, and I was just waiting

to go back for the last year in college.

Well, I do love that beautiful state of North Carolina.

I spent several months there myself, not for the best of reasons.

I went to a Christian ministry that specializes in drug and alcohol rehabilitation,

but I fell in love with North Carolina while being there and got used to that ministry there,

Hebron Colony Ministries, in a very powerful way in my life, and I thank God for it.

Well, I understand both your reluctance to leave that area of North Carolina and your reluctance to go to New York City.

I once said I'd never go to New York City,.

And I can't count.

How many times I've been there now.

That's because you're a Jonah.

You're a modern -day Jonah.

Like you said, next time I'll say the Bahamas also.

Well, you know,.

We thought we were going.

To be in Hendersonville.

Really all of our life.

It's a retirement.

Oh, yeah.

It was a nice place.

I was all set to stake down and I hadn't even begun life yet.

Well, it's interesting.

We just built a 3 ,600 square foot home, three doors up from it.

We're working hard.

To come here.

Yeah.

Now, I met you at the Foundations Conference that was being run by Sermon

Audio, and that conference was held at the Manor Community Church in New York City.

Tell us something about that.

You gave us a very fascinating history of that church.

Yes.

I tell you, it's been here in this community.

For a hundred, better than 150.

The second decade of the 19th century.

In Manhattan.

Was the Clement Moore family estate,.

And they called it.

Chet Streets and Avenues.

And then divided it up.

Into building sites.

Street on the west side.

Of Manhattan.

Were called Chelsea.

From it being.

A part of a community.

Of Chelsea Manor.

In the 1850s, this part of Manhattan was a very.

Desmeglected.

Of any upon the island.

They say there's a reason why this side of town was called Hell's Kitchen,

you know, above us here in Chelsea.

But in 1854,

a Sunday school community

church in 1854 to establish a mission

on 9th

Avenue

and 25th Street.

In an old building.

That was sagging and below was a.

Pool hall,.

But yet this Sunday school was on the second floor.

Sunday school began.

And it just continued to grow.

And in 1880, they actually had a thousand students enrolled in this Sunday school.

Wow.

But as that old building.

That they first started began to sink.

And fall apart,.

They started looking.

For new property.

And they came right around.

The corner.

You read about some of this in the New York Times that spoke about.

This little chapel.

It began as a Sunday school mission.

And grew,.

Like I said,.

To over a thousand students.

And that was,.

It had the long church.

Yeah.

This building actually came over from Holland.

Wow.

But,.

So it began as a Sunday school.

Now,.

It seemed,.

I don't know if it was how different the building was back then, but it seems that you could hardly fit a thousand

students.

In there.

That was a fairly small building.

Well,.

They had multiple.

Classes for them.

Yeah.

So that's how it started.

And then,.

They

preached

that.

Well,.

They decided that.

Rather than compromising.

The gospel,.

They were going to pull out of the denominations.

Of the dependent.

And the denomination.

Said,.

We own your building.

And the congregation didn't have the means.

To purchase it.

And so,.

A man by the name.

Of Thomas Little that had

that

happen,

this footprint for the gospel.

Right here in the middle.

Of Manhattan, this estate in Manhattan is expensive.

Mm -hmm.

And just to maintain ministry.

And so many churches are selling their facilities.

To developers.

That is,.

Once that footprint was

being sold to a utility company,

a Jewish ladies garment,

Thomas Little bought the city.

Of New York and won.

Wow.

And he had had.

In Cook,

deep in the basement.

Of this building,.

Not all,.

11 ,000 at a time,.

But they had beds for 100 a night.

Wow.

And a hot breakfast.

And lunch.

So it's had a very community.

I'm wondering.

How much.

Of the New York City revival of the 19th century.

Involved.

That church, the revival that is written about in that book The Power of

Prayer that Banner of Truth.

Publishes?

Yes.

Well,.

You know, down in the basement.

Of this.

Are records.

That we haven't even.

Had the opportunity to sort and go through.

But I believe that we're going to find.

Some incredible information.

When we have.

The time to do that.

Because I know.

That that revival actually began through that denomination, the Dutch

Reformed Church, which is now the Reformed Church in America and sadly, in many ways, not the

denomination that it used to be.

Yes.

But I know that that was.

Connected to that denomination.

Yes.

And Lanphier.

Was actually a missionary to this side.

Of Manhattan,.

A little further.

North of us,.

As well.

And that revival, you know, the Lord began that revival.

Not too long after this Sunday School.

Mission was.

Begun.

And so.

The mission and the church.

Ministry.

Began.

...

Now,.

I know that the history was kind of reinvented and some of it even

falsified, but in that classic movie,.

Well,.

A movie that is now a classic, the Gangs of New York, weren't a lot of the things that were going on in that movie

that actually happened in New York City history right around your corner?

Well,.

You know,.

I've not seen.

That movie,.

So I can't speak.

To it.

Oh, okay.

These were basically the wars between.

The Native.

Americans, which were not.

Quote, quote,.

Indians.

They were white Anglo -Saxon Protestants that were fighting the Irish immigrants

in New York City during the 19th century when there was a lot of conflict between the two.

But the thing that I've found fascinating, and I'm

not certain that you know the same story that Andy Woodard

told me, the director of ministry development over there at the New York Gospel Ministries, but he told me

a fascinating story about a homosexual who was led

to Christ through a transgendered homeless person

that referred him to that church because of the soup kitchen, and when the person went.

Here,.

The gospel was led to.

Christ,.

And when later on, the transgendered individual asked him about, did you check out the

food buffet over there.

At the church, he said, well yeah,.

I got more than that, I got salvation, I'm saved now.

Do you know.

The story that I'm talking.

About?

Oh,.

I certainly.

Do,.

And this.

Individual's.

Actually invited.

Me.

We have,.

During the.

Week,.

We have.

Three, what we.

Call evangelistics that are.

Connected.

With the.

Trader Joe's.

Grocery stores.

Here in.

Manhattan have.

Been so gracious to use their.

Donations, and we've.

Had a.

Relationship with them.

For, oh, better than.

Four years, and matter.

Of fact,.

Last year, one of the stores had.

Donated to.

Our organization.

Over two million dollars worth.

So we have a food.

Distribution.

In our.

Building on.

Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday at three o 'clock to a service.

It's an evangelistic service.

There's expository preaching and singing.

We were.

Invited to one of those services.

Yeah, yeah,.

He's a wicked witch.

And a.

Transgender person.

Yes, yes, yes,.

Very much so.

He came and.

Heard the.

Gospel,.

Ethnic diversity.

Is a.

Beauty,.

And you come to.

One of our services at.

One o 'clock and then be.

Able to.

See the.

Diversity,.

And we're.

Thankful for.

That and.

Thankful that God's gospel rescues all.

Of us.

Yeah,.

That's the picture that.

We have in.

Revelation of those worshipping the Lamb,.

Right?

From out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Yes.

And that's always a beautiful thing to see that right in front.

Of you.

Manifest physically here on earth before we're even in heaven.

I believe, if I'm not.

Mistaken, that that.

Area, according to what Andy was telling me when I was there for the conference, isn't that area

got one of the largest homosexual populations of anywhere in the United.

States,.

Like per capita, there's more?

That's my understanding.

A lot of our neighbors.

Are.

And what's.

Beautiful that.

We're seeing is that we.

Are welcoming anybody and.

Everybody to the services that hear the gospel of.

God.

And we.

Have had.

Transgender, and those.

That are.

Gay come into our.

Service,.

They're greeted.

And treated of the ghost to everyone, regardless of all

of us are sinners,.

We walk.

Through the.

Door, all.

Of us are sinners,.

We struggle with different.

Things.

But what.

With great.

Joy we.

Have the.

Opportunity.

To share the gospel.

Of God with them and everyone who comes.

There is a larger population in this section.

Of the city, yes.

Well, I'm.

Assuming there is probably a mixed reaction.

I'm sure that not all of them are happy to hear a gospel presentation.

Well,.

What's been interesting,

we've had individuals.

That used.

To happen.

When Reverend Buzz preached.

All the time.

Yeah, that's.

My spiritual gift.

Backdoor.

Revival.

I'm sorry I interrupted.

You.

But, you.

Know, that's.

The gospel

to rescue its people from every ethnicity and every.

Struggle.

And so it's with great joy that we preach it.

And then.

Watch it do its work.

Yeah, I.

Saw a great meme, as they are called.

I'm getting, being introduced and educated to the lingo of the internet and

technology because I'm very far from being savvy in that area.

But I saw a meme that I had to share.

On my.

Own Facebook page that.

Said, and I'm.

Paraphrasing it because.

I don't.

Have it right in front of me,.

But,.

Good works of charity without the gospel make this world

a more wonderful place to go to hell.

From.

And that's why I'm so delighted when I hear about an organization like yours that not only

feeds people and clothes people and provides the physical needs like many other organizations

do and which.

Are very.

Important and wonderful things,.

But you do.

The even more important thing of feeding people with the gospel and the word of God.

You know,.

There's a meme, chapter 10, that really is the foundation.

Of what we do.

And why we do it here, where God says.

There in that.

Chapter that He shows His love and He

tells the nation of Israel,.

Show your love in that way.

Too.

And I think.

That's why Jesus in the gospel said, don't be anxious.

About what you will eat or.

Wear.

Your Heavenly.

Father knows you have need.

Of these things.

And then you.

Look at James.

And that great.

Text that talks.

About the works.

That follow.

True Bible faith.

And He says your faith's worthless if you'll tell someone to.

Be warmed and.

Be filled.

And so we share with the.

People that.

Beneficial deeds is a manifestation of.

The love of God for you and.

Our love for you.

And then I remind them that.

The same book of.

The Bible,.

The book of.

Deuteronomy,.

Says that man.

Shall not live by those seeds out.

Of the mouth of.

God.

We're here to.

Give you the gospel of God.

And then to.

Demonstrate the love of God in meeting.

Your pressing.

Needs,.

To help.

Your neighbor or love.

Your neighbor.

Without any.

Manifested beneficial.

Deeds.

And then I.

Started to rebuke me the.

Most.

It talks about.

The church leadership and the church.

Congregation.

And

also the.

Love of our.

Neighbor.

And as you reach out,.

We all memorize that Ephesians.

2, 2, 8,.

You know,.

Like raise her.

You're saved through faith and.

That knot of.

Yourself is a.

Gift.

That knot of.

Works, as any man should boast.

But we need to teach people to memorize the.

Next one,.

That's.

Honor 2,.

Beneficial deeds.

And we just

believe that

2015 is

a.

Beautiful way.

We have to.

Go to a break right now.

This is our final break.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Bill Jones, our email

address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Don't go.

Away.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnsett.

If you just tuned us in for the last half hour, we have had on the program our guest

Pastor Bill Jones of Manor.

Community.

Church in New York City and he's the Senior Director of New York Gospel Ministries and if you'd like to

join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

We do have an anonymous listener from New York City who asks,

are the.

Liberal.

Politicians in New York.

City.

Making things more difficult for a Christian ministry such as yours that not only

does things that they would gladly approve of like ministering to the poor with physical

needs but because of.

Your.

Adherence, your strong adherence to the gospel of Jesus Christ and call to repentance.

Of sinners.

Involved.

In.

Homosexuality?

Well let me.

Say this, beautiful things.

About being.

In the.

Kingdom of.

God,

and they.

Have their.

Laws and rules and that sort of thing.

And don't.

Have to discourage.

A believer.

I've had.

Any of the.

Governmental.

Officials here.

In the city.

In

fact,.

Yeah,.

One of your.

Neighbors was the reason I had to stay in a hotel that was about a half hour drive from your

church.

Because of.

The complaints that she made to the nearby hotel.

That you.

Were some kind of a homosexual hate group or anti -homosexual hate

group.

I.

Should say.

Yeah, and that's.

Not us at.

All.

Of course.

I've tried to them.

And you're.

Right.

Because we're the gospel of God and

you show.

The love of God and the love.

Of Christ.

With,.

Not compromising the message.

Of the.

Righteousness.

And you.

Focus on.

That.

I like to.

Tell people.

It's not.

What we're against.

I think.

But that's how you win if somebody is

still defined who you are.

And I think that that's very important.

This is a ministry that is an

outreach to the most ethnically, racially,

religiously and ideologically diverse places in the United

States and possibly on the planet Earth.

And Christians who want to put their money, of course we would never say

don't support foreign missions, but we do have in a sense a foreign mission field right here

on American soil in New York City in a way that those who have not visited New

York have no comprehension.

Of.

But if we have listeners that either are hearing this live or maybe hearing it down the road

on the archive through the recording, they may be thinking of, hey, this sounds like a

possible place to be putting some of my income towards in regard to charity.

Tell our listeners what exactly they should expect New York Gospel Ministries to be doing with these

funds, these donations, as you labor to not only care for souls

physically but more importantly with the gospel.

Well, I tell you, there are several aspects to New York Gospel Ministries.

We have the imputed righteousness

trained in that theology

and

then we get them

on the street corners of New York.

We get sound permits from the police department.

You can get a sound permit and stand on the corner with amplified sound and preach the gospel of Christ in New York City.

This city is across the matter, you can't do that in New York City.

You can do that here in New York City.

I mean, you can go into Times Square, preach the gospel.

So there is mission outreach on the street that

NYGM does.

About 50 million people, tourists, came to New York City in

the year 2014.

We're waiting for the numbers.

About 40 million of them were from the continental United States and 10 million

from foreign countries.

So the whole world, I tell people, the whole world lives in New York and the whole world visits New York.

And so investment in gospel ministry in a city like New

York, and so we

provide the training to the local churches with the theology of the gospel, we get them out on the street.

And then we have a very vibrant intern ministry and we

have interns that come every summer and they get this hands -on training in the theology

of the gospel and practical gospel individuals

that gospel globally,

people,

what

we're doing,

planning.

Matter of

fact, and

you were here

for the conference, and so you know what the chapel looked like, but you

also can testify that there's a lot more work that needs to be done on this

to help us.

And we have another staff pastor, Galen Belinsky, and we're in need of,

Dan, we have a fellow that was an intern with us

last summer.

He's coming back this June.

Commitment begun to

raise, our

initial goal is to raise $1 ,000 in

support of staff.

People's gifts will go toward the support.

And we do have another listener.

We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks, is New York Gospel

Ministries a representative of one denomination or is it multi -denominational?

It's multi -denominational.

We have independent Baptists, we have Southern Baptists, we have Presbyterians, we have Bible churches

that support and send mission teams.

We're open to gospel, believing gospel.

And I would like to personally, I don't know if this is too late notice, but

I am conducting the Iron Sharpens Iron Pastors Luncheon Thursday,

April 28th, here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania at the Thornwald Mansion, which is a historic,

beautiful old mansion that was erected in the 19th century.

And the owner of that mansion used it to entertain national

politicians, celebrities, and society's elite back then, and it was burned down, but restored to

its original beauty.

And that is the location of my Iron Sharpens Iron Pastors Luncheon, which is absolutely free of charge

on Thursday, April 28th, from 11 a .m. to 3 p .m.

And we're going to have a guest speaker, David Wood, who is an expert on Islam.

He travels the globe debating Muslim clerics and apologists, and he

has, I'm not saying he says this about himself, but when I look at him, I describe him as having a

photographic memory when it comes to not only the Bible, but the Quran.

And he should be a fascinating guest.

And there have been Christian publishers all over the United States who have donated a ton of

books.

Buzz is laughing because he sees the stacks of them.

Stacks.

We're sitting around the boxes.

Yeah, and each pastor is going to leave with, they're probably going to need to bring their own

wheelbarrow because of the number of books they're getting for free.

But this is all free of charge from beginning to end, and if you can make it out to that luncheon pastor, I

would love for you to give a brief presentation.

Another individual giving a presentation is Pennsylvania State Representative Stephen Bloom, who is a

dedicated Christian.

It's always good to see a true Christian in politics, not somebody that just gives lip service to it

and fakes a Christian identity just to gain some support from a conservative voting base or something.

But he is the real deal.

The real deal, yes.

But anyway, if you can make it, I'm not asking you to make a decision now, but I'd love for you to come out, if not to this one,

perhaps in the future, whenever your schedule permits.

It's worth it for the books alone.

Well, you know, Chris, I was planning on coming to this

conference, this pastor's luncheon, and to ask, to have you ask me

today whether or not I'd give a short presentation.

I'd love to do that.

We've been praying and asking the Lord to just give us opportunities, and when you open up

this opportunity to share the ministry with your

listeners, we're really in need of, we're starting our

fundraising up again, just to meet the expenses of having this ministry.

In the heart.

We would love to come, and thank you so much for extending an invitation to share a little bit at that time.

In fact, you could bring all the men on staff at your ministry, or any men, because it is a men's luncheon,

and any of the literature that you'd like to have available there for New York

Gospel Ministries, please feel free to bring boxes of it.

There may be between 75 and 100 men there, God willing.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

And that's also an invitation to our listeners, if you want to be, if you want to attend this

luncheon, we still have room for about 25 men, so if

you'd like to come, you have to be a man in leadership in some capacity, not necessarily a pastor, but

involved in a power church organization, or perhaps you're a deacon in your church.

Email me at chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

And I just want to remember before we run out of time, before we return to the conclusion of our interview

with Pastor Bill, PNR Publishing and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals

asked me to announce that the Faithful Shepherd Pastors Retreat is May 9th through 11th

at Harvey Cedars Conference Center in New Jersey, on the beautiful Jersey Shore.

I've been there myself once, and it is really breathtaking there, and if you'd like more

information about this, go to alliancenet dot org, alliancenet dot org.

David Powelson and Dan Doriani, both men who have been guests on Iron Trip and Zion Radio,

are speaking at this Pastors Retreat, and the theme is the Faithful Shepherd.

So once again, it's May 9th through 11th at the Harvey Cedars Retreat Center on the

Jersey Shore in New Jersey, and go to alliancenet dot org, alliancenet dot org.

The ministry that you are undertaking,

it takes a, I think, a gifted person or somebody that might

not have gone into such a ministry with a raw gift or an innate talent, but I

think God has to give it to you if you don't already have it, to have patience with people

because you know that a lot of people, just like they did in Jesus' day, are

going to be clamoring around you only for the physical blessings that they're getting, and they have absolutely

no interest in what you have to say about the Word of God and so on, and of course the Lord does

raise up from among his elect people that embrace the

gospel and rejoice and become transformed, as you've already spoken about, but

tell us something about that challenge where you may be tempted to lose your patience or your temper

even with people that are blatantly just trying to be fed and clothed and take advantage of the

situation, that they know that Christians are well -known

for their hospitality, their charity, their benevolence, kindness, if you could respond to that.

Well, I tell you, I don't think we've ever gotten angry here about that.

We certainly, our hearts are moved, we want people to respond to the gospel of God with our constant prayer to the

Lord, even in our services as Lord, give them a heart to know that you're the Lord, open up

their

hearts, the Sunday

services, but one of the

things we've noted is certainly as you're preaching there, you'll see

people kind of sleeping,

we've had even

visiting, how

many of you have come

to put your faith and trust in Christ after quite

a number of people, so that is what you're,

I think of that verse, and as you cast that gospel net

out, the Lord is going to do it through the preaching of his gospel,

and so that's really what motivates us.

And then, also just loving our neighbor, and I think of the ministry of Christ, who

in his ministry, he was constantly meeting the physical needs of people and was teaching

doctrine and deeds, you know, that was the Lord's ministry, and you look at his heart and what he did,

and then I think, but we don't hesitate to say some of the things he said too, you know, the Lord said don't labor for the food that perishes,

and so we tell.

These dear people.

Well, even Jesus said many followed him just because of the loaves and fishes, but you know, they still got ministered to.

Yeah, I think that one of the sins that we who are Christians, because

Christians are sinners, even though we've been rescued from the world of flesh

and the devil and death and Satan, we are going to be sinners until

we enter heaven, I'm not talking about unrepentant, habitual, scandalous sinners, but I'm

talking about the sins that every human deals with on an everyday basis,

doubt and losing temper and all kinds of things, lust.

Christians are guilty of these things, and one of the things that we struggle with as

Christians is the sin of pride, I believe, and we sometimes

forget the gospel itself, what the gospel is about,

and the fact that it is meant for, as Jesus said, those who are

sick, the healthy don't need a physician, he has not come to save the

righteous, but the lost, and sometimes we expect unregenerate people to behave as if they are born -again

believers, don't we?

Yeah, that's so true, and that's what gives us a

reminder of how patient the Lord has been with us, and

still is,

with a glory

from the

eyes of men are

not hidden from us.

It's hard to get real proud in the presence of the Lord.

Do you have any stories about specific incidents or individuals you'd like to share briefly before we leave?

Oh, wow.

You have about eight minutes.

Okay.

Well, you know, we've had a lot of experience, let me share a little story.

There's a place in midtown Manhattan called Goldmere Plaza.

It has a statue to the first female prime minister of Israel, but it's a wide -open

plaza, and we've had a lot of open -air meetings in there, some with sound, and

then some, I have a display, a third -scale model, a table with

show grid and an altar of incense

and a menorah, and we'll set these things up, and it's a magnet.

Jews and Gentiles alike come, so

sometimes we'll set that up, and on one occasion, we were

set up

there at

Goldmere Plaza, and

flowing

down this street,

he got so

excited,

he

started.

To walk away, and I followed him.

He walked faster, and he started to run.

He took that, and I went over there and picked him out,

and I had to lead some of them in.

There.

They had ketchup.

Right.

And they were improved.

Yeah.

But we brought those tracks, and in a matter of

moments, we had two people, and we bought one of those

books titled God's Free Gift to the Nations, and

we've had a lot of stories like that, opposition in the open

air.

We were down in the Brighton Beach area, and set up our display, men

and women, and here was a young college lady.

She had never done anything like this in her life, and she was out by the display, and she had a man come up and

spit at her feet.

Wow.

And just kind of, it moved her in

tears, but you saw into joy when

someone could

say, oh, man, I need to against you falsely for my sake and the gospel, and she heard that, and her

heart warmed back up again, and I guess what I'm trying to say, that when you take

the light into the darkness, there's always going to be opposition, but we

remember soul against flesh and blood.

So you have to see a love for people.

You have to love people, and then understand that there's going to be suffering, there's going to be

persecution.

There's just so many of those stories from the open air.

We go up into the Bronx from time to time in a place called The Hub, and very poor,

poor area, and you do an outreach and a track distribution, and nine out of ten people will

downtown to a financial district, stand on a street corner, and maybe one in every 15.

People.

That is an interesting thing, that the self -righteousness

of those who are more monetarily blessed gives them very often, other than a

miracle from God, gives them in their minds reason to look down upon those that

would dare think that they need help in any way.

And not to sound racist, even if it's in a good way, but I can't help but say

that in my experience, especially when I was single and was more prone to, before

my wife went home to the Lord in 2011, but prior to that, prior to being married,

when I was out passing out tracks and things like that, I would be much more

likely to receive a smile and somebody eagerly taking a track who is African American

than a white individual.

That was just a fact of life when I was living on Long Island, New York.

Yes, yes.

And I think you know the city

will have the poor.

One of the things,

and yet the income isn't

coming from them.

They don't have anything to give.

What was coming from the outside to help us give the gospel to the poor, here in our community

and here in the city.

Lord, we don't have a rich congregation.

Around the corner is a church that is smaller than our ministry and they have three quarters.

Of a million dollars worth of income every year.

And I have other pastor friends in the area that have $350 ,000 income every year.

Our income as a church last year was $67 ,000.

But yet, we're ministering to the poor and we remind

ourselves to give to the poor.

Amen.

And I'm sorry we're out of time and I know that your two websites, the first for the Manor Church, that

website is manorchurch .info, M -A -N -O -R church .info.

And the New York City Gospel Ministries website is n -y -g -m .info, n

-y -g -m .info.

Thank you so much for being a part of the broadcast.

We look forward to you returning very soon.

Well, Chris, thank you so much.

And I hope everybody has a safe and blessed weekend and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus

Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

We'll see you next week on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.