Piper and Warren

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ. Based on the theme in Galatians 2 verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said,.

But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you. In short, if you like smooth, watered down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Small Talk, Family Updates, and Naming Babies

Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry. It is not raining today and it's a Tuesday. Woo hoo! Steve Cooley is here and Steve, tell us what's going on in your life. Some of the listeners like to know and I think they'd like to get the personal side.

I mean, this kind of stuffy shirt, always talking about the Bible. Give us something about you or your life or your family that we wouldn't know, something surprising. Surprise us.

Well, I don't know. By the time this show airs, I'll have my second granddaughter.

That is pretty exciting. We don't know names yet or you know names, but you're not allowed to reveal the names.

I know the choices of names that I'm not allowed to reveal.

Oh, that's kind of a gnostic thing, isn't it?

You have the inner knowledge. See, they might change their names or their minds and we're praying toward that end.

Might change their names too, you never know. To protect the innocent. Well, when our kids were born and we, you know, the first one we had it all planned out, second planned out, third one we thought, let's see their face, their meaning either he or she, let's see their face and then we'll decide and pick a name based on their face.

I think that's kind of biblical.

Does that work though? I mean, I just heard about somebody who's waiting to name their baby until they can judge the personality and I'm like, how does that even work? How do you look at a baby, you know, two weeks old and go, I think I've nailed his personality.

Well, the deadline I think to name kids, at least when we were younger, you had to name them before you left the hospital. Really?

Yes. Well, this particular child is going to be in the hospital for a little while, got a few complications. So then they get weeks to figure it out. Is that how it works? I think they must have.

I'm not sure. Well, on No Compromise Radio, we have a strategy and here's our strategy. We're trying to brainwash you. Our strategy is to get you to think biblically about issues and we want to do it in such a way that if you're driving down the street, you want to turn to KV, WVNE.

You know what I was thinking, Steve? I was thinking about the first radio station I was on and that was KZUM, that was 89 .5 back in Nebraska. And so I mixed KWVNE with, I mean, when was the last time you were on a radio station in Nebraska?

That was probably 30 years ago. So naturally, it just came flooding to your mind.

I do have a few old recordings of me on the air. The show is named Oral Delights, A-U-R-A-L, you know, pertaining to the ear, delighting, you know, delicacies of the ear kind of thing.

Oh, is that like when you interviewed Bono and stuff like that? Yeah.

It's funny, one quick story and then we'll get into our topic for the day. I received a phone call from the radio station back in 1982 and they said there's a new band in town and they're playing at some little bar, 50 people there, and they're trying to get themselves known and they know that we're the alternative punk rock kind of station.

Would you please interview them? They'd like to get some notoriety and they like to do interviews and all that. And I said, well, I saw the EP that they first put out with the gargoyle on it and I don't really know.

It's got a good sound and it'll probably take off. I actually like it. I could understand the lead singer's vocals and what he was trying to say, but I think I'll pass. It was REM. So REM's in town emailing, or they didn't email at the time, but they were contacting us.

Please interview us.

And I said, no. Was that the Radio Free Europe or whatever it was called, their first one?

What was their first thing? I think it's called Murmur, the first EP. Oh yeah. It had some radio song on it, that's true, but I think it was called Murmur. Yeah. Yeah, but I think the song though is, I don't know.

Well, that was Michael Stipe. Radio Free. Radio Freedom. So we are an evangelical station and so we should probably talk about evangelicalism. Sure, why not? And so what is happening in evangelicalism today?

John Piper's Interview with Rick Warren

I'll tell you what's happening. We have John Piper interviewing Rick Warren for 98 minutes. I think it was 98 minutes. And it was posted on the Desiring God website.

I have to confess, I only made it through the first nine. I mean, it was pretty disturbing. You know when I'll discipline myself and force myself to watch or to listen to the rest of it.

Well, Steve, you can't make any comments if you didn't watch the whole thing.

Oh, yes I can. The first three minutes were just so sad. I ran through an entire box of Kleenexes in three minutes. So let's put it that way.

Steve, do you know, you're always against things. This is kind of, you know, the no ministry. No, no, no, no, no. Compromise.

Yeah, that's right. I was just really disappointed. I mean, when you started an interview by saying, Rick, let me quote some of the best parts of your book. And Rick, you are really a rock star and you believe all the right things.

And Rick, you love the reformers. And Rick, you, let me just give you a hug. Pretty much the challenge was over.

After the first three minutes. Rick Warren was beaming. Well, Steve, when I'm considering these things and why Piper would essentially give the platform, here's what I'm thinking. It's a friendship that both can profit from.

You have Piper who sees, I think, some pragmatic things that Warren can offer administratively, managerially, et cetera. And I think Warren's motives are much more, well, the entree into reform circles is through John Piper.

But here's what I thought the whole time as I watched it. I thought, and I've coined this myself. So I haven't read this. I haven't heard this. I haven't been given this through hypnosis. I think it's called

This is an original thought. This is original. Original thought. The two words that describe Piper doing this with Rick Warren and trying to give him entree into evangelicalism, friendship hermeneutic.

Everything he sees and hears from Rick Warren, he sees it through the guise of friendship. And love believes all things and hopes all things. And so it's a friendship hermeneutic. Remember, Steve, years ago, when we had the Evangelicals and Catholics together, ECT?

We wondered, why could someone do this? Why would they stand up and say, it's not justification by faith alone, according to the great heritage of Augustine through the Reformation? Why is that happening?

And it was friendships with J .I. Packer. And so they would sign on with Packer. MacArthur said, this is how you describe the ECT, is friendships with J .I. Packer. It's all about friendships. You think that's true?

Well, I mean, what else could explain essentially agreeing to sort of set aside the gospel? I mean, the ECT was an attempt to undo the Reformation. The Reformation was all about the differences in soteriology and how people get saved between Catholicism and Protestantism.

And now to just kind of erase that, pretend like it didn't happen, that's what ECT was all about. And with Rick Warren, you have someone who promotes Christianity basically without Christ. I think Michael Horton, in a roundabout way, said that in his book, Christless Christianity.

Well, the thing about it is, of course you have to do the disclaimer so you don't come across like some lunatic, fringe, KJV, fire-eating separationist. You have to say, well, we appreciate the ministry of John Piper, and we do this, that, and the other.

I love his The Swans Are Not Silent biography series. Don't you love those, Steve? Yes, I do. I think his Romans 9 exegetical commentary, The Justification of God, is supreme. Yes, it's excellent. And so, I'm not questioning John Piper's salvation, I'm questioning his wisdom.

He's a smart guy. Let's stipulate to his intelligence, this is a very, very smart guy. So it's not like he got, I don't even think it's fair to say he got snookered by Rick Warren. I think it would be fair to say, like you said, that he went into reading The Purpose Driven Life determined to pull out the best little nuggets he could.

And when you listen to that interview, that's exactly what he does. You know, it's little snippets here, snippets there, here's a snippet, there's a snippet, everywhere a snippet, snippet.

On KWVNE. The interview that's on Desiring God, and you can go to Between Two Worlds, et cetera, and find it, it's all around. The interview, it basically is John Piper quoting The Purpose Driven Life, I think from 2007, that's when it came out.

Quoting segments or snippets of The Purpose Driven Life in front of Piper, excuse me, in front of Warren, and then asking for clarification, and did you mean this, and did you mean that, and how this lines up with reformed evangelical faith, et cetera.

And so that's the setting. But my question to you, Steve, is this. Haven't we determined, we meaning the broad evangelical discerning community, haven't we determined the status and the state of Purpose Driven Life a long, long time ago?

Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Life, and the Problem of a Christless Message

That's right, I mean, basically because Purpose Driven Life is a book that can be read and not offend anyone, which makes it suspect as Christian literature. If Mormons, Jewish folks, Muslims can read it and not be offended, then you have to wonder what it's all about, and Rick Warren kind of addressed that.

He said during this interview, he says, well, you know, I never intended it for unbelievers. Frankly, the whole idea that unbelievers would read it is just shocking to me because he says he wrote it as kind of a guidebook to their 40 days of purpose program that they do at the church, and so had no idea that unbelievers would ever read it, and so sort of tacked a gospel message onto the end of the book.

Steve, I'm 51 years old, and you're 51 years old in a couple of months, right? But who's counting?

Only my aches and pains are counting.

I don't really care if John Piper likes Rick Warren. I don't really care that Rick Warren is, in my mind, using John Piper in some fashion, but here's my biggest concern. My biggest concern is if you would have come to me 22 years ago and said, you know, John MacArthur just did something, and he's given an entree to Rick Warren, so he's allowed to speak at Grace Church, hold conferences, he endorses it all, I probably would have stuck up for MacArthur because I was young, John's a mentor, John's my pastor, influential, and I would have stuck up for him because I wanna stick up for my father in the faith, my pastor, and so my concern, Steve, is not so much this all happened, this'll be gone by next year, et cetera, but it's that the Piper followers, the people that really look up to John and respect him, for, by the way, lots of really good reasons, but it's the younger followers of John Piper that have already said in the blogosphere, see, we can learn a lot from Rick Warren, and I think we can learn a lot from Rick Warren about what we ought not to do.

This whole thing, Rick Warren, God isn't mad at you, he's mad about you, it's over and done in my mind with that.

Saddleback Church and the Parable of the Soils

Well, and I mean, it's not like you and I haven't been to Saddleback Community Church there in Southern California where Rick Warren is the pastor. We've been there on multiple occasions because you can go there on Saturdays, you know, that way you can free up your Sunday for more important things.

You can go there Saturday and hear exactly the same message, and we were there, I mean, the most appalling one was the Parable of the Soils, where Rick Warren said during his 40-minute message, interspersed with commercials, that the message of that parable was that God wanted you to remove the stones, the weeds, every obstacle out of your life that keeps you from hearing what God wants to say to you.

And I remember saying when we left that day, that was a very interesting interpretation of that parable. The only problem is that Jesus gave a different interpretation of it, and that's a big problem.

Steve, for years, we would go to the Shepherds Conference and listen to different seminars, and then we would drive the guys down to Saddleback. And by the way, that was always against your principles and against your ideas, but you duly submitted and went with us.

And the years we said we won't do it anymore, you were really clapping. I think it was a standing ovation.

It definitely was. I did my very first ever backflip.

That's why your knees hurt so bad. And my back's killing me, too. By the way, this is No Compromise Radio. You're listening to Mike and Steve. We're talking about the friendship of Rick Warren and John Piper.

Well, we would go to Saddleback together. And Steve, I have to say, after being there, I'm thinking 10 times. Would that be a good estimate?

I've probably been there a few less than that because I think you have gone a few more times. And you know, you're more of an acolyte. That's true.

Well, that's true. You're the neophyte, I'm the acolyte. And it just was very, very disturbing to go to such a man-centered pep rally, moralistic, therapeutic deism, exactly as some have coined it. And I just was very depressed.

And to hear Rick Warren say that he believes in the five solas, that he ascribes to the doctrines of grace, that he believes in imputation, he knows exactly what to say to the right person. He's well-read, he's smart, he's a good manager, he's a good administrator, he's a good leader, and he knows what to say.

And so to Horton, he says five solas. To Piper, he says monergism, I believe it. To his pulpit audience, though, he doesn't say that. Here's what I'd like people to do. Pull up the Easter Sunday message when the Jonas Brothers sang that Disney song as if it were unto God.

Pull up that one and tell me about the gospel that Rick Warren preaches. I'm telling you this, Steve. Show me any other man in the universe, or woman, who says they believe something and then they don't do it.

Regularly, I'll tell you that person is a? Hypocrite. A hypocrite. He's a hypocrite because he doesn't believe those things. He doesn't believe them at all.

Or else he would practice them. And if he wants to call, he's more than welcome. We'd love to have him on the air. Let me just say this. Another time, he was actually there but did not speak. I don't remember if he was injured or it was just because they had a guest speaker or whatever.

The guest was Steve Arterburn, who's a Christian psychologist, which is a contradiction, but that's another day for another topic. But Steve Arterburn gave a message and I'll never forget your response to it,.

But Steve Arterburn Just before the diarrhea joke that he gave or after? It was, I think it was before.

But anyway, and it was also the day where Steve Arterburn got up there and said that, wow, I feel like I'm in Vegas watching the worship music. And I said, amen, a little bit too loudly and everybody turned around and looked at me.

But Steve Arterburn's message was the God of second chances and wherein he would say something and he would prattle on for about five or six minutes and then he would throw in a verse to sort of justify what he just said.

This is the exact opposite of expository preaching where you show what's in the text. He would kind of suggest what was in the text after he had, anyway, he said, and this is a paraphrase, but close. He said, God is in heaven wringing his hands hoping you will make the right decision.

And that was so blasphemous. I mean, it was enough to make me want to charge the pulpit.

The Problem of Pragmatic Ministry and Man-Centered Church Growth

Well, the problem is people say things and then could be corrected, especially if you have multiple services. But then talking to my brother who went to one of the other services the next day or later in the day, the guy said the exact same thing.

Steve, I don't know if I was paying attention because was that the day that the woman was singing the Celine Dion song for special music with a low cut top showing all her cleavage? Was that the day?

It very well could have been. I probably, maybe I went to the popcorn stand during that time. It is an unusual place and it is not some place, not only is it not churchy, you know, some people say, well, we're just trying to get away from the sort of churchy atmosphere.

It is a place where Christ is not exalted. His word is not held high. And the focus of the service is definitely not on the God of the universe. It is on kind of how you can improve your life. And that's not the message of the Bible.

Listen to the Easter service this year by Rick Warren and tell me that it's not full of possibility thinking, a smarter, more refined version of Robert Shuler. In my mind, it's Peale, then Shuler, now Rick Warren.

And this guy is a master of spinning things in such a way that you say to yourself, well, maybe he is in the camp, maybe he isn't. That is in private while, I mean, during private interviews. But from the pulpit, he shouts out loudly and clearly what he believes.

He doesn't believe in total depravity. Pragmatically, he doesn't because it never comes across. Let me quote to you, Steve, and to our audience, Phil Johnson, some time ago. This is not even within this recent controversy, but here's Phil Johnson.

Quote, I can't think of anyone who would make a finer poster boy for the pragmatic, spiritually impoverished, gospel-deprived message of modern and postmodern evangelicalism than Rick Warren. He is shallow, pragmatic, and chameleonic.

He is a spiritual changeling who will say whatever his audience wants to hear. He wants desperately to be liked and accepted by Muslims, evangelicals, and everyone in between. The length to which he will go to indulge his ecumenical bent is seen in the fact that he was one of the handful of professing evangelicals who signed a common word between you and us, a declaration of the spiritual accord between the Muslims and Christians, end quote.

I, Rick Warren has just gone the extra mile in so many different ways, whether it's, you know, his concern for greening the planet or what have you. He is involved in so many different movements, the one that he's never driven toward.

I never see, you know, some kind of like, let's get back to the gospel sort of basic approach by Rick Warren because that's not his thing. If his next book is something like, you know, why I haven't been teaching the gospel and why I repent, that would really impress me.

Short of that, I'm not impressed.

Fruit, Separation, and Shepherding Concerns with Piper

Steve, just because John Piper says that Rick Warren is theologically sound, that he has a high view of God, that he is really godly, that he is a good preacher, and that we can learn something from him, I think I'll take Jesus's words instead.

Either make the tree good and its fruits good or make the tree bad and its fruit bad for the tree is known by its fruit, Matthew 12, 33. Shouldn't we follow that advice?

We absolutely should. I mean, the issue with Warren, again, is just whatever he says, and you've said this, but whatever he says in these public forums, you know, in these interviews and all that other thing, look what he does week to week.

You know, we've been there, we've seen the dozens and dozens of self-help programs that his church promotes throughout the week. You know, Recovery This, Recovery That, Recovery Da-da-da-da-da, you know, support groups for every matter of alleged problem in life, and they do everything but stress the Bible, stress repentance, stress the gospel.

What was the magazine that, years ago, Rick Warren started to write for, and he talked about forgiving yourself and all that? Do we remember that magazine title? It was like family living, or...

Are you sure that wasn't O, the Oprah, Oprah? No.

I thought you were gonna say Highlights. Sports Illustrated? As far as we're concerned here on No Compromise Radio, we aren't into separation. We're not, unbiblical separation. We're not into second-degree separation.

We're not trying to say you've gotta separate from everything that Piper's doing. I just ask myself the question, what is Piper doing? And you know, here's what I wish, and maybe it's true, but the guy has, I just don't know about it.

I'm glad that John MacArthur has a Phil Johnson to watch his theological back. No one's perfect, no one's an island. We need a multiple elder board, a plurality of elders, and so I just wish, sometimes I wish Phil Johnson was on Desiring God staff.

Right, just kind of put the brakes on John Piper. Whoa, John, whoa.

Yeah, I remember years ago, wasn't it MacArthur who wanted to go to the Promise Keepers after they'd been around for a few years and preach the gospel? And I think John's rationale was, well, I'd rather have me preach the gospel than Sandy Patty preach the gospel, or maybe that was Sandy Koufax.

At a Promise Keepers event. Sounds about right, doesn't it? And then I believe the elders said, nah, that wouldn't be a good idea. And so we all need that kind of thing. Steve, when I went to go down to the Universal Unitarian Church here in Worcester and you and the elder board just, you know.

Not happening. You know, you take the battery out of my car. I mean, we all need that.

Well, and you know, to MacArthur's credit, obviously he listens when men say that. I just, you know, I mean, I've profited many times from John Piper, but you know, I mean, he does some odd things from time to time, but this is really kind of a new level.

I don't know how you can reel this one back, because he is, I mean, this is the, you said it. This is the equivalent of inviting Robert Shuler into the camp. This is the equivalent of inviting any manner of heretics, that is people who teach a different gospel and inviting them to be part of the brotherhood.

And he's just not. Rick Warren is not within the, you know, within the conservative evangelical camp. Let's put it that way.

No matter what he says and no matter how hard he tries. I don't condemn John Piper for having friends. You can have unbelievers for friends and you can have Rick Warren for friends. And if you want to make him say, I just said he's an unbeliever, I guess you can draw that conclusion.

I don't know. That's not my point. But my point is you can have a friend. You could be friends with Robert Shuler without saying, by the way, come speak at Desiring God annual conference. And why don't we have our regional conference at the Crystal Cathedral?

And can I just It's exactly what Piper did through Warren.

Closing Appeal for Discernment

In the last minute or so, can I just anticipate some of the objections? Mike's nice and Steve's mean. Yeah, well, that's some of it. But how about this? Well, you know, Rick Warren's been reaching out to people for 30 years and look what the Lord's doing in his church.

What's he doing in your church?

Well, I could launch on that whole thing. Maybe it's because we have a smaller church here, Steve, and we're on a small radio station in a small state of Massachusetts. But I'm pretty much tired of all the bragging that goes on with how many people are at the church, how many services, how many tweets, how many followers, and how great my congregation is that can slaughter your congregation in a theological discussion.

500 of my people up against 500 of yours.

We'll stand our folks up against the prophets of Baal any time, so.

Oh, Steve. See, I have to undo what you do. It's Mike Avendroth, No Compromise Radio with Steve Cooley today. We just want you to be Bereans and Discerners and we want you to throw the baby out of the bathwater.

No, just kidding, God bless. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Avendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God's word through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.