The Alcoholics Anonymous Cult & Addiction

The Gospel of Christ and the Call to Discipleship

Non-rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it. You're gonna bark all day.

Or are you gonna bite? Delusional. Yeah delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal you don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you call me delusional using your worldview is perfectly.

Okay, it doesn't really hurt.

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples not going to the world make buddies not to make brosives, right? Don't want in the world make homies. Disciples, I got a bit of a jiggle Nick.

That's a joke master. When we have a real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

If then you have been raised with Christ seek the things that are above. Where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above not on things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

When Christ who is your life appears then you will also appear with him in glory. That's Colossians chapter 3 verses 1 through 4. Y 'all. Welcome back to another episode of Apologia radio. You can get more at Apologia studios .com.

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Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, and the 12 Steps as a False Religion

We're gonna be talking about Alcohol Anonymous the cult and I know many of you are already angry. Yep I just saw some I already know and I want to just say Let me just ask you humbly. Be willing to hear us out.

I would love to hear your arguments for Alcoholics anonymous and I'd be willing to reason through those with you, but just be willing to hear us out. I know many of you guys Came out of addiction. You may have gone to 12-step groups and you're still going and you're still calling yourself an addict.

I think that's a problem. We're gonna talk a bit about that today on the show. We're gonna reason through stuff. We're gonna go through scripture. We're gonna compare scripture to the 12 steps the big book all that we're gonna go through the 12 steps.

We're even gonna touch a bit on celebrate recovery was which is supposed to be the Christian version of the 12 steps. So we're gonna talk about that and all I would do is ask you to please keep an open mind.

And an open heart be humble enough to listen to our arguments and then we'll move on from there so we are gonna talk about Alcoholics Anonymous today and Biblical approach to addiction. Let's call it that but just some announcements real fast things to be praying about.

End abortion now big things happening. I want to encourage you guys. I know you hear us talking about a lot. You need to know what God has done over 6 ,000 babies saved last year just through the churches and the coalition.

The churches who have started with us got free training and free resources over 6 ,000 babies. That is a way underestimated number. There's no way to fully tell how many babies are actually saved. These are confirmed saves over 6 ,000 saves.

We're looking at about eight babies per day saved because of your partnership with and abortion now. So all glory to God for that. I don't want to neglect. Announcing that to everybody who has given and prayed.

I'm in a part of this ministry with us since the very beginning. That is a very very big deal about 800 churches now free training free resources. They're out now. Thousands of hours a month between all of them preaching the gospel at abortion mills.

So glory to God for that and as we've announced Last year, we got bills started of equal protection and abolition criminalization in in a couple states. And we had Arizona, Texas, South Carolina, Pennsylvania.

We helped the guys in Oklahoma as well this year. We did a video where I had said in front of the Supreme Court that we were working on I think five states for next Year right now. We have 16 states possibly 17 possibly 17 states.

We're working on. We've got confirmation from a bunch of these legislators that they're putting it in. This can be a very big year for us. This is unprecedented to have the church across the country working so Consistently on this issue and for us to be able to actually work with these legislators to get this into these states.

It's going to be Lord willing an amazing year. So praise God first and foremost, and if you would help us some of you guys are like I can't go to the abortion mill. I can't do this. I can't do that. I understand, you know, some of us have providential hindrances to do certain ministries.

But what you can do is you can help you can give all this has happened because people just like you gave and We have a $250 ,000 matching donation. We are almost there at matching that donation. We have a total budget for the year but we have a very generous gift from a friend who wants to have a $250 ,000 donation matched and That is happening right now.

You can go to endabortionnow .com Endabortionnow .com Forward slash donate to give towards that help us to get to our budget goal. It's gonna be a busy year and most of all beyond that, please please pray.

Please pray for us. Please pray for this year. It's gonna be extraordinarily busy with this and we are so happy and so grateful for it. It's gonna be a lot of work. It's gonna be a heck of a lot of work for our team.

For Joy, for Luke, for me, for our entire Apologia Studios staff and End Abortion Now staff. It's very busy to do this. It's difficult to do this stuff and to pull it off. Well, we want to do it well so pray for us, that's what we need.

We need your prayers and Anything else? Am I missing anything else that's big on the horizon for the moment?

No, let's get to it. We've started off 22 with a real bang. So.

It's been it's been tough crazy week already, but let's get to it focusing on the issue before us. We are talking about Alcoholics Anonymous Cult. As I said, I know and we know because we've been doing this for a long time.

We know that that is highly offensive to so many people. We know that there are faithful brothers and sisters in the Lord who find that claim highly offensive. I know that some of you watching this right now because I've sat in front of many of you and I've I've even listened to many of you.

Writing letters to us making comments to us. I know that you are extremely upset with me right now for saying that. It's like I've stepped on something that is it is very meaningful to you it's almost like we're melting down an idol and I Would just ask again that you hear us out.

So let's let's talk a bit about history. So We planted Apologia Church. While I was the head chaplain at the oldest addiction recovery hospital in the state of Arizona. It's one of the most renowned addiction facilities really in the country.

People fly out. I mean every day to come to this place. It is 24 hours a day as a full-time medical staff nurses. Therapists and it's a professional detox facility. So you will go there and get medical treatment and detox.

We had people in throes of very serious addiction to opiates and to benzodiazepines and alcohol and all the rest. People that could have died had they not come in and so it was a professional addiction recovery hospital.

I was there because it started as a Christian addiction recovery hospital. I was there and I ran the Christian program. There was the the secular treatment program, which was AA and then there was the Christian track and that was mine and They gave me total freedom to do anything.

I wanted and so I saw Countless people come to Christ out of drug and alcohol addiction. Through what happened at that hospital? We planted Apologia Church while I was already a pastor at another church here in Phoenix.

We planted Apologia Church because so many of those people needed long-term discipleship and care. More than the 30 days that they had with me and so many of these people would travel to the state from other states.

But many of them lived locally and so it became very clear. There were a lot of prayer and a lot of providence and all just I won't share that story now. That God was calling us to plant the church. And so we did so when we planted Apologia Church.

It was me, my family, Luke, his family, which was just a pregnant wife at the time and it was Joy and that was that was the planting team of Apologia Church and we planted at the Hospital in their family building.

We used the facility Tuesday nights, Thursday nights and Sunday evenings. To do worship services. We started our first day. We're almost having our 12 year anniversary in end of February. 12 years of Apologia as a church plant.

We started in the family building. It's a really small space. Air conditioning didn't work. So that made summer very hard for us. And our first night that we did service there on a Sunday end of February 2010.

There were probably 10 people present in the room. And I think everybody in the room was still on detox medication. Many of them in halfway houses. I can only think of one that wasn't actually in a halfway house.

That's in that's to my recollection. That's how we started. So if you were to come to Apologia Church early on we said this often we were known as that drug church. Right, and I'd like to have you guys speak to this too Just sort of give everyone a feeling of what was it like early on an Apologia Church like because we're very different now if you came to Apologia Church today, you would see families everywhere children everywhere and You'd never know where he came from so I'll leave it to you guys if you could paint a picture to everyone.

What was Apologia Church like at the very beginning in terms of addiction and all that?

Well, one thing we always joke about Is that you had to walk through a cloud of cigarette smoke to get into the church? We actually had to ask everyone to like not smoke right outside the door because it would come in with them, right?

Yeah. Which we'll get into I mean Idolatry and all that. At some point the the cigarettes end up becoming an aisle for a lot of people. That's a whole nother story. Yeah yeah, I mean it was just one. On one hand it was really cool because There was brand new baby.

Christians never been to church didn't come with any preconceived notions of what church should look like. So we were able to say this is what we think church should look like. This is the kind of church culture We're going to establish.

It was a very transparent church culture.

I had to say stop wearing your booty shorts a few times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also had to say that. Yes. Yeah.

So that side of it was cool because he's got there's like, all right, great. Let's do this, you know. And so we were able to kind of develop this really cool church culture. And then on the other hand, it was really really difficult.

Trying to having to rescue people off the street in the middle of the night. I know you've got all kinds of stories trying to locate people and. You like you said people live in halfway houses no job so there was zero Zero Skrilla for for a while.

And so that was that was challenging some amazing worship. That's for sure. Mm-hmm. So yeah, yeah.

Nothing like worshiping with a bunch of brand new baby Christians out of addiction who were just totally on fire for God and just Transparent and open and just like they don't care, you know that that may they may worship pretty amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think that uh, just sort of in the vein of where this conversations going I think what it revealed is that it's tremendously helpful for people to have a community that is small and close-knit and everyone can kind of drop what they're doing and Attend to one another Yeah, and and be with one another and Be held accountable and be counseled and taught.

I It's like nothing I've ever been a part of yeah ever there was a lot of intimacy right and just and not a lot of pretending that everything was okay when it wasn't and And Really just getting to know people At their I Guess darkest most like really really Really meeting with people who were actively trying to not do sin Instead of which sounds crazy That I don't know.

I grew up in church, so it seems weird that I had to wait until I was 20 or 21 to really See that happening, but it's so up close and yeah, like I said, I guess just Helpful. There was a reason why it was It was I mean people Came and they like weren't going anywhere because I think it was even just in terms of addiction we'll talk about all this but it was a.

Effective yeah, very everyone was was able to be honest. Yeah, that's what I loved. It was refreshing to have somebody come in and this happened to Luke and I a lot more times. I can't remember to have somebody come in and Come to come to worship hear the word Be totally challenged and then come up to you afterwards and hand you a bag of pills to say I was about to go I was about to lose it tonight and I Bought a bunch of ecstasy or I bought this heroin or or whatever coke or cocaine or here's this bottle of perks that I got.

And to have them come up afterwards. They were so affected by the Word of God and worship and fellowship of God's people that they were just able to honestly come To their pastors and say hey, I almost blew it tonight and went back here.

And then we would go to the toilet together and we would do a little worship ceremony we would toss it as an act of like putting your idol to death and you know and onward and It's it was it was refreshing.

It was refreshing even for me for us as pastors. You know, of course being in church for you know for such a long time and being in fellowship good solid churches. But it was refreshing to just to be in a place that was like no one here is trying to put on a face.

It's like yeah, I just had a needle in my arm two days ago. They you know found me almost dead in a bathroom sort of a thing and everyone's like, oh man, praise God. Like it's you know, nobody people still had track marks on their arms at times.

You can still see the wounds.

Yeah, it was fresh people were trying to get their kids back. Yeah Child Protective Services. Yeah just like a lot of brokenness people were trying to deal with the consequences of. The things like that so in a in a weird way not struggling with some of maybe you're more like common typical Church issues, right, but obviously but then dealing with yeah some issues that were just very.

Intense. Yeah, there's some intense moments for sure. So, okay. So Christopher says here in the feed. He says I think there are worse organizations that we can spend our energy and time rebuking than a great.

Let me ask you a question about that. And again humbly just try to receive this with humility. Would you say that about Mormonism? Would you say that about the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society? Would you say that about?

The Rosicrucians Islam would you say that about them. And I'm just I'm gonna take a guess here what your answer might be. It might be well. No. Those are like false religions like when they need the gospel and then I would say that's my argument against AA is Exactly that it is it is a false religion.

It is a Christless system. And it is a it is a false message of hope and salvation. They need the gospel there. Yeah, and and I want to just say I mean Luke and enjoy and I were talking about this before we actually came on today.

I was just saying that like, okay, so not to belabor it you can see my testimony elsewhere. It doesn't matter my testimony is not important here but I came out of drug and alcohol addiction to Christ and when I did I Immediately began the process of discipleship of being discipled of having got people around me having accountability around me.

And I began to I began to go after all the areas of my life. That were leading me to the addiction whether it was the alcohol the ecstasy the coke or the marijuana or whatever. The thing was it was it was something there and I could see that this is truly a spiritual foundation to this.

It's rebellion first and foremost. It's idolatry. But I'm going to these things for something whether it's pleasure loneliness guilt and shame, whatever it is. And so I went through this process of sanctification out of drug and alcohol addiction.

I went through it with just straight Christian discipleship. I didn't go to AA. I didn't ever research AA. I knew that what was happening within me was Was sin and it was rebellion and I knew that the Word of God had every possible Remedy to make me complete and make me whole in all these different areas which lead people to addiction.

So when I was asked to take over chapel one night at this hospital I didn't know what it was and I discovered when I got there. Oh my goodness. This place is running 24 hours a day with a bunch of addicts.

I looked into the face of myself that night in that room with all these addicts and I knew what they needed. They needed the gospel. They needed Christ. They made it they needed to be made alive and new with new hearts and I needed to be discipled.

And so that's what got me into it. So when they actually asked me to be the head chaplain over their Christian program I'm entering into this thing and they're going. I'm like, well, what can I do? Like what is this exactly?

Like well, you're that you're they were like, you're the pastor. We don't know this field. Because we they lost their chaplain. They said we have a Christian program people fly here every day for it. So you do the Christian program?

And so I admittedly totally I I have to confess I was just like sitting in the office. They gave me one day and I was like just going. Alright, so I have to figure out a way. It's in 30 days Minister to addicts that are gonna be detoxing many of them.

They don't know Christ. I got to get them the gospel they turn to Christ then we had to work discipleship within 30 days. So I'm like thinking through this and then what I'm like, well, what's done here?

They have a secular program a a and then the Christian track mine. And so I'm like give me everything you got an a a so they give me the big book. They give me all the folders that give me everything on a a they gave me I had to watch pleasure unwoven one of the most popular things on the disease model of addiction.

I watched that whole thing. It was playing constantly at that place and I start researching a a and I'm looking at it going. How does this play out? So what did I do? I start going to the meetings they're happening all day.

And so I go to the meetings the a a meetings and I'm sitting in these rooms with my mouth shut in the back. While these people hold these meetings and everyone's standing up saying hi, I'm Bill. I'm an alcoholic.

I'm a pill addict. I'm a coke addict. I'm a sex addict. Whatever the case may be I am I am I am and then I'm watching them the therapist and who are running the a a groups. I'm watching them take people through the first step the second step and so I'll give you some Examples here everyone as you're listening, maybe you're not familiar with this field.

It says first step right and you gotta get through the first step in a a we admitted we were powerless over alcohol that our lives Had become unmanageable and I thought to myself like as I'm thinking through this my go not Not Really the problem that your life is just unmanageable.

Okay. Step two step two came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to ready Sanity now, obviously the 12 steps have gone over have undergone some revision Let's say over the last generation that's acknowledged, right?

That's fine. But these are the a a steps people are doing today. This is what you're gonna get right so came to believe that a power good upon investigating this.

Previously a decade ago. Yeah, you came across these same. Yeah issues. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, so that's that was that was so I'm I'm I'm doing this came to believe that a power greater than ourselves can restore us To sanity and I'm going okay from a Christian perspective. I can't do this I can't take people through steps because that's not the problem.

It's not that you're just Needing a restoration of sanity and it's not just some power greater than yourselves that you need to be restored to sanity. Your problem is sin. Your relationship with God is broken.

You are a rebel against God. You are fallen you need Salvation and forgiveness of sins you need peace with God. That's the Christian message for goodness sakes and it's true about the addict. It's true about the liar.

It's true about the adulterer and the murderer and the thief and the prideful and the envious go down the list. We don't have like a special 12-step program just for the envious. Like it the problem is sin and you need peace with God like gee I always I said this a lot.

This is what really bothered me. Jesus never sat people down like say for the Sermon on the Mount most famous sermon Christian in history. He doesn't sit people down and go. Okay, everyone before I get started here.

Can I have all my drunkards. You sit over here in this group and anybody Struggling with adultery you sit in this group over here all my liars in this group over here. It never happened. No, you're not gonna find it anywhere in Scripture sort of dividing people up by their pet sins or their idols.

You have a mass of humanity all guilty all needing the same redemption and salvation and so the problem is the same for all of us, but Interestingly AA goes a different route here. So what I would what really started messing with me was I'd be in these rooms.

And this is where I would really like you to humbly hear me if you are really upset with me right now. I Meetings and I can't tell you how many times I was ready to stand up and Just pull my hair out because I watched these people being led into false religion and idolatry in the room.

Okay, everyone. You got to believe you have power in yourselves your story to sanity for somebody like I'm agnostic. I'm atheist I don't believe in that. That's okay. That's okay. Just as long as you believe that it's some power Outside of yourself that could restore you to sanity that power could be your family that power could be the doorknob.

I mean, it's the famous way. That's the famous one, right? Everyone says oh the doorknob that power could be Electricity as long as you are looking outside of yourself to something that will restore you to sanity, right?

And they'll they'll give you the definition the definition of insanity is doing the same thing every day expecting a different result. That's insanity. And so that's what I need restoration from right that just because I'm doing the same thing every day expecting a different result.

Well, that's the kind of thing I heard I'm just sitting there as the pastor and I've kept my mouth shut for the sake of the Christian program. I didn't want to get fired. I wanted to collect all these people bring them to my room which is what I worked on for four years full-time and God bless that and so I want you to hear that so when you hear me saying cult false religion.

False message of salvation false teaching. I want you to know it's not just me. You know just not liking AA and the big book and I don't like 12-step sort of thing I'm telling you and there is and I'll debate you on it you wouldn't be able to you wouldn't be able to survive a Debate with the Bible in one hand and the 12 steps in the other and tell me that it's Christian.

You cannot do it. It's an idolatrous system at the core. It is a It adopts the myth of neutrality when you talk about things like celebrate recovery in many ways. It is a system that has an authority over here that says this is the problem.

Here's how we solve it. And here is the way you work out this these religious principles because they are religious principles. Listen to them a power greater than yourself. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.

Ah, there it is as we understood him. In other words any God goes in 12 steps, and if you deny that You are unfamiliar with this field or if you've been in this realm you're lying because you know that a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him is Something that's adopted in these groups.

You'll have a group heck. There's a meeting. There's a meeting that meets Less than three minutes from here like every single day. It's a huge group and that room is just filled with people who get to have any God they want.

Any God they want and so the system itself is unbiblical it is Christless crossless Redemptionless forgive it forgiveness less. Because it's devoid of Jesus. It's completely devoid of Jesus. So you guys speak to that because we're gonna move on in terms of like really unpacking it, but yeah.

Without getting too much in a detail. Just I want to say that I mean, we've lost count of how many people That have come through our addiction Program and stuff which isn't really a program so much. We'll get into that but I hate programs.

But The point is I've lost kind of how many people were ex addicts came to Christ put their addiction to death and Said you know what? I spent my the last five ten fifteen twenty years in a and And it was the same thing over and over again and I came to Christ and it was done.

I just talked to someone the other day. We weren't even have we we had no idea. We weren't even having that conversation with him. He just said I wasn't went through all the a stuff and didn't work and I came to Jesus and it was gone.

Did no Christ now. Yeah. Yeah, and so like that's.

That's just from personal testimony on our end just to see the why this is so important. Yeah.

Well, yeah, and what I was alluding to earlier, I guess is that We acknowledge The necessity For community fellowship accountability council, so we we acknowledge the practical benefits of a program. That's a good point like a or na or celebrate recovery.

That's not the conversation that we're trying to have here and it to me makes sense that Secularists would Attempt to offer something like that. Mm-hmm for because they're made in God's image, right?

Yes, exactly. And and obviously it makes sense that I mean, I guess I just want to point out that a lot of times when you talk about the addiction model or even just psychology in general sort of the standard for like if it's a problem is Is it affecting your daily life?

Mm-hmm, and we can all agree that Things like active Drug and alcohol use just rampant your it affects your life much more than maybe envy but that's. It's not it's not different. It's easier to see right on the sir.

The consequences are destructive.

The consequences are easy to see on the surface, but it's the same root.

Problem, right ultimately. Yes. Yeah and and any. While we acknowledge the practical benefits of resources Like na or a a we have to reject them because of their foundational beliefs. Just like just like I would tell anyone listening to not who's having Troubles in their marriage to not go to a therapist that doesn't believe in sin.

Exactly. I just you can't you just can't you can't say the the end justifies the means, right?

You got really you have really things that are practically helpful to people. So here's what I would say like to it's in line with what you're saying if the Mormon Church. No, let's do it this way. Scientology does this they Mormon Church of Scientology.

They create a program to get free from addiction, right? Mm-hmm, and it's within the Mormon Church and it's within a Mormon communion and or Scientology and that group and they say come to Our meetings based upon our religious principles.

We're gonna help you get free from addiction. You're probably gonna get testimonies like ten years after the fact you're gonna get testimonies people say hey I used to be addicted to such-and-such, but I went to the Mormon thing on freedom from addiction and guess what?

It really worked that community there that accountability all that stuff. It's like yeah, cuz there's practical principles there that people are applying. But the what's the problem? It's a false religious system.

Yeah, it's a false God. You're still going to hell and guess what your hearts not changed because regeneration only takes place Within the framework of the gospel no other way.

You've potentially fixed the most destructive parts of your sin, right? But yeah, you haven't really ultimately done anything with it. And when I say fix like I just mean You on the outside, right from your destructive sin, but it's still you're still guilty.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're still guilty because here's the thing if you get free from drug and alcohol addiction, but you don't have Christ you don't have peace with Christ, you're still lost you're still going to hell and.

It's it's a moot point. I mean.

You might function better on the way right there.

So I don't want to send people to a group that is going to give them false Hope it's gonna give them false teaching a false God and a false message of salvation. I want them to know Christ and You know.

When you go further down here, it just it continues to get worse when you think about the 12 steps I'll give you some more. So we were stopped at Number three and there's the the emphasis again. There's been some revision to AA's 12 steps over time.

But this is what you're gonna get today. Okay across the board made a decision to turn a will on our lives over the care of God as we understood him because any God goes you can. Have anything you want made his searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves question.

How do you do moral inventory of yourself without talking about God the true God? How. How right standard because I'll tell you right now I know of people who were active homosexuals in these groups. They're fearless merch searching moral inventory wasn't really fearless and It wasn't a really comprehensive moral inventory of themselves and their lifestyles.

And it not just not just homosexuality every kind of sexuality was in there. But my point is is if you apart from God and his word How do you do a fearless and searching moral inventory of yourself? And then it says this admitted to God and to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.