Dead Men Walking Podcast #136 Joel Settecase:Do you even Apologetic, bro? Three steps to apologetics

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Exploring Theology, Doctrine, and all of the Fascinating Subjects in Between, Broadcasting from an

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Undisclosed Location. Dead Men Walker starts now. Well, hello everyone.

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Welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walker Podcast. Thanks for coming along on the ride.

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We do it all for the glory of God. We also like to thank Jacob's Supply for supporting the show.

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Quality building products at wholesale pricing. Jacob is a friend of mine, brother in the Lord. I attend church with him, and his business is just amazing.

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Cool. Now that we got the business out of the way, guys, thanks for being here. We have a great episode.

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I met this brother a few years ago, I think at a Fight Laugh Feast conference, and our paths have crossed a few times, and we finally get to get him on the show.

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He's the founder and president of the Think Institute. He hosts a podcast called Worldview Legacy. It's Mr.

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Joel Sedekes. How are you, Joel? Doing good. Glad to be here, Greg. Thank you. Awesome. We will add in the fake applause in post.

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Oh, nice. That's great. You know, usually we have that, you know, right there. But for some reason, it doesn't like when

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I hit that button when we're recording, so we're going to have to figure out that. I got to find a button like that for my everyday life.

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That's epic. You just walk into a room. Thank you. You know, do the pageant wave.

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For sure. We like to take smart, intelligent guests and just bring them down to our level on this show.

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That's kind of what we do. And, Joel, you are smart, intelligent, a man of God. You're a teacher, a preacher, and we appreciate you being here.

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But for those in the audience that don't know who you are, could you give us a little couple -minute bio about what you're all about and who you are?

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Sure. Yeah. Well, I'm a Bible teacher and former pastor who used to defend the

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Christian worldview the completely wrong way, and then God changed my attitude and my approach, and now

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I teach others how to explain, share, and defend the Christian message in a way that honors

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God, that stands on his word, and Lord willing, that leads people to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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So that's what I'm all about. My wife and I live in Geneva, Illinois, about 50 miles west of Chicago.

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We moved out of the city of Chicago a couple years ago, kind of right in the thick of the pandemic and all that stuff.

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And we have four kiddos. We homeschool, and we love it out here, man.

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But I am a guy who I used to be a pastor, and when

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I was a pastor, I saw this great need for a teaching ministry that would equip everyday believers, men and women who were not going to go to seminary, who nevertheless wanted to be able to share their faith with confidence.

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And when you share your faith, people are going to have questions. So I saw the need for this teaching ministry to equip

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Christians to be able to answer those questions. And tried to start it when I was a pastor, got some trainings in, and just couldn't get the institute off the ground.

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So when my role as a pastor, I was an interim pastor, when that came to an end, we joined up with CRU, formerly

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Campus Crusade for Christ, and launched the Think Institute. We've been with CRU now for four years, and we're actually in the process of launching the

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Think Institute as its own stand -alone nonprofit entity and teaching organization. So very excited about that, but that's a little bit about us.

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Yeah, now something that you said in the very beginning there, and I have to ask, you said, I defended the faith the completely wrong way.

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We want to talk about the right way, and today we're going to be talking about apologetics and the importance of apologetics, and do we see examples of that in the

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Bible, and did Christ have an apologetic? But before we get into that, what was the complete wrong way? All right, so yeah, you had to ask about that, didn't you?

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So let's highlight everything I've done wrong, which actually, you know what? I talk about this a lot because so many of us get caught in this trap.

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So I've been interested in apologetics since I was very young. I mean, I remember debating my classmates in second grade about, is being a

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Christian the only way to go to heaven? And when I was 16, I would hop on these discussion boards, these

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Roman Catholic discussion boards and debate all the Catholics about Mary and the

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Pope and all this. Sola Scriptura, come on. That's right, yeah, the latest episode of my own podcast.

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We talk about Sola Scriptura, so I'm still fighting that. But I've been interested in apologetics, and once I discovered the robust tradition of classical and evidential apologetics,

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I went all in. And this was primarily when I was in seminary, so this is going back 2011, 2012.

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I really went all in, listened to a lot of William Lane Craig, read William Lane Craig, studied all of –

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William Lane Craig, if you don't know, anyone who doesn't know, is one of the foremost apologists of our time.

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He's more of a classicalist, meaning classical apologetics defends the truth of Christianity through philosophical arguments.

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That's a very, very dumb down, and all my classicalist friends are hating me right now because I totally simplified it.

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But then you've got evidential apologetics, which really strives to prove that the resurrection of Jesus happened using external extra -biblical evidence or internal biblical evidence, but they seek to authenticate the resurrection using evidence to show that the most probable conclusion is that God exists and God raised

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Jesus from the dead. Then they go on to prove other Christian truth claims. Look, I've got friends in both camps. I love these guys.

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Excellent, brilliant scholars, amazing minds. Okay, but let me tell you about an experience that I had when

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I realized I was doing this the wrong way. And then we're going to talk more about approach later, I know.

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This was maybe 10, 11 years ago. I'm sitting in this bar in Chicago right off of Lincoln Park, which is just this beautiful area.

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It's kind of like Central Park in New York City, but just this beautiful area. I'm sitting in this bar with my friend

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Chris, who was a self -professed atheist. And he and I had been meeting for several months, once or twice, maybe three times a month.

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And we'd been discussing all the evidence for the truth of Christianity.

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And man, I was giving him all the arguments. I was pulling out all the stops. And I was doing it in a way that I believed he had to view as intellectual, as what

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I pictured him as, as a neutral, impartial, reasonable man.

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There was no way that he could look at this evidence and not conclude. The most probable conclusion, the most reasonable conclusion, is that God is real,

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Christianity is true. Okay, so this is at the culmination of several months of meeting. We're sitting there and he looks at me and he goes, there just isn't any evidence.

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And at this point, I'm about ready to start beating my head against the table. Because it's like, what have we been talking about the last several months?

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And he didn't even hear it. And so I'm trying to work my way to the gospel.

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I'm trying to invite this man, my friend, to repent, to believe in Jesus. And I can't even get past square one that God exists and that Jesus rose from the dead.

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And so that really set me off on this journey. I was in seminary at the time.

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And actually, the way that I finished seminary was a lot different than the way that I started seminary.

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The last classes that I took, I did some self -study projects and just dove deep into a completely different approach to apologetics.

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And that process, that refined me and refined my approach.

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And you know the amazing thing, Greg, is that what I realized is that once you see how

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Jesus defended the truth, once you see the way that the Bible equips you to practice and engage with the defense of the faith, it's a lot more simple than I was making it.

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Not that philosophy and evidence are bad. They're wonderful. And as a Christian, I love those things.

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But it does not have to be complicated. You do not need a master's or a PhD in apologetics in order to defend your faith.

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Literally any Christian can do it. There's two skills that you need, and there's three steps to the process.

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I know we're going to get into this, but it's very, very simple. And so that's where I'm at now. I'm still very much on this journey, but that's what we talk about on my podcast,

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Worldview Legacy. Thank you for the plug, by the way. And that's the method and the encouragement that I want to pass along to my fellow

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Christians. So just for those listening, before we get into that, are you still kind of in the evidentialist camp?

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Or are you wandering towards precept or presuppositional? Or where are we in that journey? Oh, yeah.

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No, I went all in on precept several years ago. Okay. Yeah. And that's the incredible thing is that that is what, as I've studied scripture and studied specifically the encounters of Jesus, that is the method that he used as well.

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And so it's funny that you asked me that. And I realized I didn't use the term precept or presuppositionalism.

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We're explaining it, though, because we've all had that situation where you're talking to a nonbeliever or an atheist or agnostic, and the evidence just goes right over the head.

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And those evidences are good, and I love them. And I have always said I even love when science catches up to the

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Bible, right? And we prove it, and that's good, and that's great. But we have to start somewhere when nonbelievers have a heart of stone, that we have to presuppose some things, that even within the argument that we're having, there's something that's allowing you to have that argument.

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But sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, no, no, no, you're absolutely right. And the way that I explain it, in -house discussions, like we've got a

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Facebook group called the Think Squad. I talk about that precept all the time, hashtag that precept.

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And, you know, with Christians who are well aware, like you and I, we would talk about precept and presuppositionalism.

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But when I go into a church, or if I'm speaking at a conference, or if I'm going to a men's ministry, that term either might be completely unfamiliar, or it might trigger some people, some guys where they listen to, oh, precept.

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You know, I know that my favorite apologist doesn't do precept or doesn't like precept. So I don't even put that term out there.

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It's not that I'm afraid of it, it's just I don't want people, I don't want to muddy the water prior to introducing the method.

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And by the time you hear the method, it's obvious what it is. It's obviously a presuppositional method.

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But I don't think you need to learn that phrase in order to learn how Jesus defended the truth. And long story short, you're going to end up as a presuppositionalist.

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No, you're absolutely right. When there's preconceived notions now that are kind of tacked on to theological terms,

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I mean, I found that out the hard way. I was a closeted Calvinist for almost eight years,

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I would say, and then went through my cage stage and then realized, no, that's usually what I follow up with at the end.

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I will have a discussion with someone, even a believer, and we get to the end of a two -hour discussion and they go, well, man, that all makes sense.

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What do you believe in? Oh, well, I'm reformed because that's what the Bible says. And instead of leading with it, you just kind of let the

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Bible speak for itself. So I totally understand you maybe not coming out with the

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P word right out front. But at the same time, that's kind of what it sounded like you were discussing. So I wanted to clear that up.

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But let's get right into it. So most listeners are going to understand what apologetics are.

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But for those who don't, maybe just give us a bird eye view of apologetics. What exactly is it?

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Sure. Apologetics is John Frame is a guy who is an author.

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He's one of my favorite theologians and Christian apologists. But he defines apologetics as the theological discipline that defends the truth of the

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Christian message. And elsewhere, he describes it as it's the application of Scripture to unbelief.

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And I love that definition because that has precept written all over it. But it's the application of Scripture to unbelief.

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And that can be unbelief on the part of a skeptic or a non -Christian or a member of someone who belongs to a different religion or cult.

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Or it can be unbelief in our own hearts as Christians. It's so when you have doubts, when you have fears, when you have unbelief, and you go to Scripture, and God ministers through his written word to you, that is apologetics in action.

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It's not always how we think about apologetics, right? Think of it as the application of Scripture to unbelief. It makes a lot of sense.

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So it sounds like by that definition, that is something that every believer should be practicing. I think sometimes when we think of apologetics, we think of a

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William Lane Craig or we think of someone who just studies a certain, you know, oh, they go up and they defend the faith.

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Well, aren't we supposed to be defending the faith daily? You know, I was influenced greatly by Greg Bonson and how he it's funny when

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I found him. I went, oh, this is what I've been doing all along, just studying other religions and making sure that I have a defense for my faith.

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And I thought, what Christian wouldn't want to do that? If I come across a Muslim or a Hindu or an atheist or an agnostic or Jehovah Witness or a

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Mormon or whatever, I want to be able to rightly defend my faith. And then I realized a lot of believers don't think that way.

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They're happy to be within their little bubble of what they've kind of learned and don't want to grow outside of that. No, I just believe what the

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Bible says. Well, why? Because you're going to get those real world questions. And it sounds like by the definition of apologetics, you're saying this is something that people should practice every day.

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Yeah, dude. A hundred percent. And. One thing that I realized, and I saw this as a pastor,

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I've seen it as. As a Bible teacher with the Think Institute, not everybody is wired the way that you and I are, you know, where, you know, we like we love a good bite, so to speak.

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I love to get out there and, you know, and get in the trenches and and have a have a nice, you know, debate.

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Sometimes I go, I'm a weird guy. I go on Twitter and I'll look for atheists to to argue with.

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I don't mean argue like to be contentious. I mean, literally to practice my arguments because I want to,

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I want to, you know, get sharp. I want to stay sharp, but not everybody is wired that way.

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And so what I generally do is I'll, I'll sort of paint the picture of the situation that we're in as kind of a wake up call.

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Yeah, because we all, we all live in communities, we live in neighborhoods, we have neighbors.

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And, you know, so for us, we might be reading the Bible, we might be praying, you know, the

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Bible is very precious to us. It's, it, it contains the words of Jesus, it contains the words of God, it is

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God's written word. But so many of our neighbors don't believe the Bible, they don't know the

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Bible. So some statistics for you today. According to Barna research 6 % of Americans have a thoroughly biblical worldview 6%.

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Wow. Yeah, the 9094 % I'm no math genius but 94 % of our neighbors do not have a biblical worldview 200 million

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Americans today are unchurched. 2 .7

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million people leave the church, leave local churches in the United States, annually, every year, and there are 10 states right now there's only 50 states.

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So there's so one fifth of all states have a population where 96 % of the population is unreached and unchurched.

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And so the United States today is the fourth largest unchurched nation in the world.

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Wow. And so when you think about it that way. You think, well, you know, the real apologists are the guys that go up on stage and do debates and the real missionaries are the ones who go to Indonesia and Iran and China.

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Look, Iran and China are where the church is growing most rapidly in the world. Yeah, it's, it's shrinking here.

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So you are here, I am here to be a missionary. Unless God has called you to Indonesia, China or Iran, you're here because God has put you here, and you are commissioned by Christ to disciple this nation,

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Matthew 28 18 through 20. Yeah, so if we believe that we're here to disciple, and we understand that there is no discipleship without evangelism, because who are you, who are you discipling if people are becoming

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Christians. Yeah, then we understand the need for evangelism. And why do people not evangelize, because someone might ask me a question or give me a challenge that I can't answer and then that's awkward and weird and I'm embroiled in this whole thing, like I was with my friend

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Chris, where I'm, I've got to go research all this evidence and all these philosophical arguments, and nobody has time for that.

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So, so that's, that's why I love what you're doing. And that's why

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I'm trying to do what I'm doing, which is to teach a method of apologetics. That literally anyone can use because we are called to do this.

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We, we have to do this our neighbors are are in desperate need for the gospel, and who's going to bring it to them if we don't.

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Absolutely. So before we get into the type of apologetic or those steps to take anything that we do needs to be grounded in Scripture so do we have biblical examples of apologetics.

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Even more specifically, do we have examples of Christ did he use apologetics. Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Jesus is the world's greatest apologist. Now, as a good shirt

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I think. I think it's going up on our site for guys in a few weeks.

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That's good. So, I, as a good, you know,

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Christian boy growing up I would have, I would have always said that. But it wasn't until recently that I started actually studying the apologetic encounters of Jesus in the gospels that I really saw no.

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This is really true. Jesus, Jesus faced objections, and he handled them in the most brilliant way that absolutely left his opponents whether it was describes the

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Sadducees the Pharisees, his own disciples. It left he left them completely speechless.

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There's a reason why they had to, you know, in their minds why they resorted to killing him. They couldn't out argue him.

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He was just destroying them and every encounter. And so, yes, there are multiple examples of Jesus, we might say, engaging in apologetics.

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If that's not irreverent to say that. Right. I, I teach a series where it's a six part series one of them is

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Paul, one of them is an intro to apologetics and the other four are encounters that Jesus had one of my favorite encounters though is in Matthew 12.

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Which happy to get into it if you want or do it. Okay. Okay, cool. So, um, before we jump into that.

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Let me just, I'm going to throw something out there, and your listener is either going to relate to this, or if he has kids of a certain age, his kids are going to relate to this very, very readily.

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The number one objection right now. And I would, I would not have said this several months ago.

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The number one objection that that we get to our Christian faith is that Christianity is anti LGBT or, or transphobic or homophobic or you name it, but we are, we are that.

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And I actually I teach apologetics high schoolers, and one of my students moms recently sent me an email saying hey can you incorporate this into the class next year, because it is, it is the top objection that my son is getting and that that others his age are getting.

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And you're right it's it's totally been ramped up over the last year and a half, two years, I would say, to where it's your anti this.

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Yeah, put it in there. Yes, especially when they attach the word, or the, you know the suffix phobic phobic, but that's an irrational fear.

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You're right, you know you're you're rational you're afraid you're ruled by fear. Okay, so really, they're accusing

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Christians of being bigoted of being irrational being prejudicial. Now, here's the irony of it,

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Christians, we get this accusation because we are speaking out or ministering to people who have, let's say, same sex attraction or gender dysphoria or something like that.

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And we are, we are seeking to help the person. I don't mean that in a paternalistic, you know, condescending way.

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It's the old expression of, hey, I'm a beggar, I found food, I want to help you find food too.

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It's that kind of thing. I'm no better than you. I'm a sinner I sin in different ways but I'm still a sinner, but I'm trying to help.

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Yeah, but it's that very act of helping that gets us accused of all these irrational fears and evil ways of thinking.

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So there's this deep irony there. How do we respond, how do we respond when we get that accusation on on Twitter or in real life or, you know,

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Taylor Swift had that question, or that song that came out a couple years ago. You need to calm down. I'm not a big Taylor Swift fan.

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Okay. But she had this song you need to calm down which was basically shooting arrows at Christian conservatives who hold to a biblical sexual ethic.

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So, how do we respond. Well, I propose that we go to Jesus and we do what

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Jesus did, and Jesus didn't face that exact objection. But you know that Christianity is LGBT or anti LGBT, but he did face a very similar one.

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And this is found in Matthew 1222 through 30. What's happening there. Jesus is.

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He just healed a man. He healed the man I was oppressed by a demon. And the

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Pharisees come up and they accuse him publicly of operating by Satan's power they say that he is fueled by Beelzebul and Beelzebul is essentially a slang term for Satan.

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And so, you know what's going on here in this passage, and in that day, exorcisms were were happening.

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The Pharisees were actually doing them. But in the Old Testament era.

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There weren't a lot of exorcisms happening, it really was not you don't really read about that there's sort of one example might be more but King Saul, who was the first king of Israel is oppressed by an evil spirit and King David comes along and plays his harp and when he plays his harp, the demon leaves or the unclean spirit or whatever the oppressive spirit leaves

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King Saul. Okay, so a little bit of background of this passage in Matthew 12 then, by the time that Jesus comes along.

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There is this expectation that the Messiah, who is called the Son of David is going to be able to cast out demons.

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That's just something that's sort of in the background of this passage. So here comes Jesus and he's casting out demons, and the

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Pharisees, in order to do damage control, they start saying no he's casting out demons not because he's the Son of David, he's not the

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Messiah, he's doing this because he is fueled by Satan he's working for Satan. So the demons are also working for him.

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Look, he's doing something good he's helping this guy. And he's being accused of doing something evil. It's really it's very analogous it's very similar to what we're experiencing today.

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So, okay, so what's going on in verse 24 they accuse him of, of working for Beelzebul.

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And what they're trying to do is they're actually trying to get Jesus killed because under Jewish law practicing black magic, using, using satanic power was a capital offense.

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So they're trying to pin this charge of sorcery on Jesus actually is quick side note, the extra biblical accounts of Jesus that came out post 70 ad as Judaism and Christianity we're, we're separating.

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Yeah, and you have rabbinical Judaism which which was actually started by the Pharisees. One of the rumors that one of the official teachings actually about Jesus in the among the the rabbis who reject rejected him is that he was a sorcerer.

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So they still try to pin that on Jesus, even after Jesus rose again ascended and the temple was destroyed.

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Yeah, so. Okay, so then you look at verse 25 Jesus says, this is, this is step one of our approach.

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Okay. Okay, so step one is show the problem in the biblical position, show the problem in their position.

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This is, this is for those who know the presuppositional method, or the transcendental method.

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This is performing a reductio ad absurdum on their position, you're reducing it to absurdity, not just showing that it's nonsense but showing that it literally does not hold together, it falls apart.

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Yeah. Okay, so here's what Jesus does. He says, every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.

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If Satan drives out Satan. He is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand, and if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out for this reason, they will be your judges.

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That's versus 25 to 27. So Jesus starts by stating a principle that they have to agree with every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and no city or house divided against itself will stand, they have to agree with this because they're calling out

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Jesus for trying to undermine Israel and its relationship with God. So they're saying,

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Jesus is trying to divide us Jesus is is trying to make us, you know, side with Satan, they have to agree with this.

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But then he goes, based on this principle. What are you accusing me of, because your whole point here is that I'm working for Satan and Satan is is insidious and dastardly and so smart, but the stupidest thing

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Satan could possibly do would be to cast out demons. Right. So, are you saying, are you saying that I am that are you saying either that Satan is an idiot, and you know he's no threat to us, which that undercuts your, your argument.

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Yeah, sure. Or are you saying that I'm not working for Satan at all, because I'm working against him. Either way, you don't have an argument here, your argument is completely, it's reduced to ashes.

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I mean, Jesus is just incinerating position here, and it's brilliant man. Okay, so step one.

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So can I move on to step two. Absolutely. Okay, step two verses 28 and 29.

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He shows them that that their accusation would actually well actually okay before we move on, he shows them to their accusation actually applies to them, because their own disciples are casting out demons, so they literally have no leg to stand on.

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So that's step one, fully accomplished. Now step two, you've shown them the problem in their position.

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Now you show how the Bible or how the truth solves the problem.

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This is where you make the positive case for for the truth for Christianity for the position.

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Okay, so Jesus goes. If I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, this is verse 28, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

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How can someone enter a strong man's house and steal his possessions, unless he first ties up the strong man, then he can plunder his house.

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Okay, so the Pharisees have had accused Jesus of operating in the power of Satan, the power of an evil spirit of Beelzebul, but the exact opposite is true,

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Jesus is making the positive case for his own position. He's saying, look, the fact that I'm casting out demons shows you that I have favor from God that I'm working in the power of God, and that I have power that I'm actually stronger than Satan.

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Their whole argument was predicated on the fact that Satan is more powerful than us and is always trying to deceive us and outwit us and outmaneuver us and oppress us.

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Well, Jesus is saying, look, I'm more powerful and I'm smarter than Satan. I'm able to go take what's his like this guy who was who was demonically possessed.

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The messianic prophecies are being fulfilled. Jesus is the son of David, and he's bringing

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Satan's power to an end. Actually, what's really cool here that Jesus is the best apologist.

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He's also an incredible wordsmith, because what he's doing here he's using this word picture of a man who walks into a strong man's house and starts to steal from him.

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The name Beelzebul means Lord of the house, master of the house.

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So Jesus is taking the very name that they're giving him or saying that he's working for and go,

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Oh, I'm working for the master of the house. I'm working for the Lord of the house. No, no, no. I bound the

31:00

Lord of the house. I bound the strong man and I'm going into his house and taking what belongs to him.

31:07

So, they are just in a smoking ash pile right now they are completely.

31:14

They have nothing to say. And so now Jesus goes on to step three.

31:20

Step three is show how Jesus solves their ultimate problem. That's how

31:26

I teach it. The way Jesus ultimately does this or often does this is he gives his listeners, a clear ultimatum.

31:36

Sometimes it's implied and you just you see it in what he's saying, but he doesn't say it expressly.

31:42

Other times like this passage, he makes it completely obvious. So in verse 30 he goes, anyone who is not with me is against me, and anyone who does not gather with me scatters.

31:53

So, they've come along and they're trying to blur the lines between God and Satan.

31:59

They're saying, Jesus, the son of God is working for Satan. Yeah, it looks like Jesus is doing something good but you have to understand there's nuance here.

32:06

Really, this is actually evil. Jesus goes, No, there are, there's a clear line between good and evil.

32:12

There is no neutrality. You're either with me, or you're against me. And what he's doing is he's drawing the line in the sand, he's, he's as preceptors like to say, he's pushing the antithesis between himself and his opposition, and he's calling his opponents and his audience, and us by extension to choose a side.

32:36

You can't say, Jesus is good and he does good things, but I don't like the fact that he cast out demons, or, or Jesus is good, but you know what he's got some things that are problematic and that are actually evil.

32:49

No, to put it in modern terms to go back to our original example, you can't say look

32:54

I love Jesus I like Jesus I think he's a good teacher, but you know he was wrong about homosexuality he was wrong about gender, he was wrong about marriage, or his followers who are following scripture are wrong about those things.

33:08

No, you can't have it both ways. Jesus says if you're not with me, you're against me. You can't say

33:13

I follow Jesus but a Christianity is bigoted. And so, so that's really, we can take the approach of Jesus, and we can bring it into our modern situation.

33:26

Yeah, and we can directly apply the method that Jesus used. And again those three steps are one, show the problem in their position to show how the

33:37

Bible solves their problem. In other words, make a positive case, or internally critique the

33:43

Christian position. And then three, show how Jesus solves the ultimate problem. The ultimate problem is sin.

33:49

You do not get your sin problem taken care of by picking and choosing which teachings of Jesus, and the

33:56

Bible you want to accept. Yeah, you got you have to repent and go all in with Jesus that is the only way.

34:04

Jesus died for our sins. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God's eternal life in Christ Jesus our

34:10

Lord. And so it's in step three that you make that beeline to the gospel and and and offer the opportunity for someone to repent and trust in Jesus.

34:19

That's what Jesus is doing here. And I think that's what we all need to do. Yeah, and I think verse 30 is such a great example one of many of Christ being definitive.

34:29

You know the secular culture and non believers. They really like to push this kind of gray area,

34:36

Jesus right like no he really wasn't definitive on some things you like you said, I like Jesus, I can believe air quotes in Jesus, but I also want to accept this a

34:47

B or C, when in fact in verse 30 he's very clear you're either with me or against me and there's multiple cases of Christ making very definitive statements.

34:56

And, you know, the these kind of progressive believers or liberal believers don't want to focus on those areas to where you're bringing up a point to where yeah he was very definitive in his apologetic.

35:09

Very clear, I would say, and those three points that those three steps

35:14

I'm assuming to can be applied through throughout the entire Bible and through multiple situations or objections correct.

35:22

100 % you can use this approach with every objection. And really all you need is two skills

35:28

Greg depending your faith does not need to be overly complicated.

35:35

It doesn't mean it's not hard, it can be very hard sometimes and a lot of that is just emotion and fear and, you know, a lot of it for me is fear of man to be completely frank with you

35:46

I want people to like me I don't want to be the weird guy. But, but sometimes you have to be the weird guy you just have to embrace that, you know, that's part of being based are part of part of following the

35:58

Lord. So, the two skills are one know how to ask good questions, because you don't want to just shoot from the hip and start addressing positions that your opponent or your friend or your non

36:16

Christian, you know, interlocutor is not even saying or doesn't believe. Yeah. Okay, so you have to ask good questions to draw out what they believe.

36:25

And really understand them and that's actually that's a very loving thing to do. You know, we're supposed to defend our faith according to the

36:31

Apostle Peter in chapter three, first Peter three. We're supposed to do this with gentleness.

36:37

Yeah. And, and reverence. And so this isn't something where we go, Oh, you're an atheist.

36:43

Okay, let me just debunk atheism real quick. Is this guy a materialist is he a naturalist is he a supernaturalist, he just doesn't believe in God.

36:52

What is he a Buddhist because Buddhists are technically atheists too. So, what are we talking about, you've got to know how to ask those questions.

36:59

What do you mean by that. Is that always true, by what standard. How did you come to believe that these are questions that we need to know how to ask.

37:08

Okay, so then once you have uncovered what the person is actually saying where they're actually coming from.

37:16

You want to uncover the fatal flaw and what they're saying. And then the second skill is just know what the

37:22

Bible teaches. Yeah, if you. So that's step one and two of the approach and step three actually because if you know what the

37:30

Bible teaches about. Morality, about homosexuality, about gender and marriage, about the

37:41

Bible itself, about science, if you know what the Bible says about these things, then you can literally answer any objection, because you're answering it with Scripture you're applying

37:50

Scripture to unbelief. And that's man that's what we're called to do.

37:56

Yeah, we don't philosophy is wonderful evidence is wonderful emotional appeals existential appeals, all well and good, but our foundation is

38:06

Scripture and Scripture is the double edged sword. So we may we better know what the Bible actually says about these things. Yeah, absolutely.

38:12

You make a very good point about asking questions too because even in my own experience as a younger, maybe not as discerning or wise believer.

38:22

I had a lot of head knowledge of certain Christian talking points and then I would meet in an atheist who had his talking points and then we just got into a talking points argument to where we never really got to the root of the issue and it was mostly because I wanted to speak, here's what

38:41

I know and here's how I can disprove you to where now as I've aged a little bit and I and I read the word and I look at Christ and his apologetics.

38:50

Christ really never got in an argument per se he let the truth stand, and sometimes he would start with a question or two to like you were saying to find their position.

38:59

And I've noticed and here's a little pro tip for anyone listening. I would probably say nine out of 10 people who claim not to be a believer claim a different religion.

39:08

If I ask a series of well why do you believe that, well, where's that coming from, why would you say that by the fifth or sixth question of me asking that and being very like you said gentle and honest earnestly wanting to know why do you believe those things.

39:22

You realize very quickly that nine out of 10 of those people have a very shallow understanding of their own position that they can't really get past their talking points from their position.

39:33

And that allows us as believers to then go okay well let me share with you why

39:38

I hold these positions, and I found it much more effective like you're saying.

39:44

And it saves me a lot of time and in a lot of words, honestly,

39:49

I don't have to give my 20 minute diatribe of all these points, you get to the heart of the matter of why, why do you believe

39:56

I just don't think that one being could create everything Okay, well let's talk about time space and matter and why we might believe that something outside of that has to create the physical world that we live in and, and all those things that's a real big philosophical example, but you get you get the point right.

40:15

So I'm totally on board with you and these three steps that you lay out, not only biblical but very practical because, like you're saying, we don't, you know, we, you and I, we love a good debate love a good argument

40:26

I believe I personally believe sometimes when people debate and get heated in respect, sometimes we learn the most about ourselves and each other.

40:35

You know that's where we really are kind of pushing against each other to where if we're just sitting around everyone's a yes man and agreeing we don't really get very far but we need that pushback.

40:45

But I would say, yeah, your three points are very well taken. And as we close down here.

40:52

What are some, what are some practical steps and I think you alluded to a few of these that someone goes look at I want

40:58

I want to be sharp, I want to, yes I want to practice apologetics daily. What are some practical things they can do it sounds like being the word understand it.

41:07

Are there any resources at think Institute that they should look into what are some practical things they can do.

41:13

Yeah, appreciate the question. The number one thing and you already said it, Craig, the number one thing that anyone can do is study your

41:22

Bible. And I mean that sincerely, and that's not a, it's very simple but it's not simplistic, right, because, ideally, we should be reading our

41:32

Bible. Every day, we should be engaging with God's Word every day.

41:38

So, what I suggest is, if you want to get better at defending your faith, maximize that time and and look for what the

41:48

Bible says about certain key areas that you know you're going to get questions about So I'll tell you the three for me that I get the most questions about those three are morality, science, and the gospel.

42:01

I mean, like the, like the biblical gospel like what the gospel actually is morality, if you study as you're reading.

42:10

Take note of what Jesus and the Apostle Paul and Jude and john, what are they saying about certain moral issues.

42:21

And, and that is going to help you like you would have Matthew 19 that's going to help you with talking about marriage, you know that's going to help you talking, explaining about gender and sexuality.

42:35

Okay, so Matthew 19 is a great place to start. If you want to look at morality.

42:41

What about science, man, when it comes to science, start from the beginning,

42:47

Genesis chapter one is going to lay the foundation for you. If you can figure out what

42:52

God is saying in Genesis chapter one, then you're going to have a framework for engaging with science and you're going to know how to respond when someone tells you that the scientific consensus is such and such, you're gonna say,

43:06

Okay, well, I know I can ask good questions about that and uncover the fatal flaw in that, but I also know what the

43:15

Bible says, I know how God created the universe. I know the intent of the human author

43:21

Moses and what God was trying to get across me personally I'm a 76 day creationist,

43:28

I believe that God created the world, probably about 6000 years ago. And my main reason for believing that is because I've done genre studies and I've studied

43:39

Genesis chapter one. And so, if the scientific consensus disagrees with that.

43:44

Well, we're going to have to find a way to, we're going to have to find a way to either disagree with the scientific consensus, or, you know, scripture is not changing.

43:54

So, we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to go with scripture primarily. And then the third thing, the gospel.

44:01

And if you can, if you can articulate what the Bible says the gospel is, you will be able to address and respond to every cult and every false gospel and every religion out there, especially any religious system or philosophical system that claims to value the

44:21

Bible, because. So, you know, I've got a Roman Catholic friend, and he and I, I mean, we, we debate all good natured, but we're always going back to the gospel so you need to know what the

44:37

Bible says about the gospel and passages I recommend for that. Romans nine through 11 and first Corinthians 15.

44:47

Yeah, and it probably wouldn't hurt you to study Ephesians one three through 14 as well. And, but look at the gospel is all over scripture so as you're doing your

44:56

Bible study. Make a make a list make a note of what the

45:01

Bible is saying about these different, different topics. And then in terms of our own resources.

45:09

I actually I have resources that that layout how to study the Bible I've got something called the think method, which is an adaptation of what the

45:17

Apostle Paul says in Second Timothy 316 and 17. You can go look that up. We've got, we've got.

45:24

I've got resources, actually breaking down the three categories that I just mentioned to you. I've got a resource that outlines

45:33

James White's book scripture alone, and sort of gives you a cliff notes version on that.

45:40

But the number one thing that I would, I would invite people to do is to listen to my own podcast, which is called worldview legacy, we get into all this stuff.

45:49

And it's either. It's either a solo episode from me. You know, like, let's say a 25 minute episode for me talking about a topic, or I'll bring in some expert or theologian or pastor preacher teacher to discuss it and give us that the practical insight, so that you know so you can go and live out your faith in a biblical way and answer these questions, really worldview legacy,

46:13

I aim to make it the show that equips Christian layman to become the worldview leaders that their families and churches need.

46:21

That's really, that's what we're all about. And so, typically one episode a week, and the episodes aren't long we keep them under an hour.

46:30

Again, if it's just me talking it's about 25 minutes 30 minutes, but that's really what we're all about so worldview legacy

46:35

I mean you could literally your listener could pause this show right now, go subscribe to worldview legacy, and then come back here and finish this up.

46:44

And if you, if for some reason they're not subscribed to dead man walking they need to do that as well I'm a subscriber of the show. Like what are you doing guys it's an excellent right well same with me too so Joel set a case thank you so much for being here today explaining this spending some time with us.

46:58

Let everyone know, one more time and we'll make sure that we link all this up when it goes when the show goes live.

47:03

Let them know where they can find think Institute, and the name of your podcast one more time where they can where they can listen.

47:10

Sure, appreciate it. So, the, our website is simply the think dot

47:15

Institute dot think dot Institute. Nice. And the podcast is worldview legacy it's the show that helps

47:22

Christian layman become the worldview leaders that their families and churches need. And you can just search on whatever podcast app you're listening to right now.

47:32

You can search for worldview legacy hit subscribe and, you know, start listening to the back catalog of episodes the last, the last 15 episodes are after we rebooted the show we renamed it and tightened it up.

47:47

And, dare I say improve the quality improve the the listening experience so yeah go check that out.

47:55

Awesome. And guys, I would encourage you go check out worldview legacy we were

48:00

Joel and I were talking before we started the episode and I've listened to the last four or five episodes, and they're just they're compact.

48:09

There's a lot of quality there. A lot of information within that short time span everything you want in a podcast so make sure you go check out worldview legacy

48:17

Joel, thank you so much for coming on brother. It was, it was very eye opening I think it was brought value to people listening.

48:26

And anytime you want to come back on the podcast and talk about something like this, or something not like this.

48:31

You're welcome to be here. Really really appreciate it Craig it's been an absolute honor. Love what you guys are doing.

48:38

Appreciate you and talk to you next time. Awesome guys thanks so much for listening to another episode of dead men walking podcast.

48:44

As always, God bless. Be sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at dead men walking podcast for full video podcast episodes and clips or email us at dead men walking podcast at gmail .com.