Acts 29 Completely Exposed - Outrageous Recorded Phone Call Revealed - #BigEva

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00:00

All right, my friends, welcome back to the channel. God bless you. I'm glad you're here. Today's video is interesting, that's for sure.

00:08

I don't know if I'll do this in multiple parts, probably, because it's a little bit long, but what we have here is a recorded phone call from two pastors who were pastors of a church that was removed from the

00:21

Acts 29 network. And this is the conversation that they have.

00:27

It certainly seems to be a surprise to the two pastors. They weren't warned about it.

00:34

There's context here. You can see, I'm starting here about minute 12, and those first 12 minutes, they kind of explain a little bit of the context.

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And I've heard a little bit of the context from another video or podcast before. In any case, the conversation that they have is just so remarkable.

00:54

It is a conversation that I've been on the receiving end of before. This is a big

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EVA, kind of standard institutional tactic, kind of presentation.

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And here, they just got caught. They got caught red -handed, recorded, and all of that kind of thing.

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And I thought it would be good for you guys to hear this. I definitely recommend watching their full podcast.

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It's called the Full Proof Theology Podcast. I recommend you watch it.

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This episode is called The Truth Behind Why Acts 29 Removed Our Church. But this resonated with me so much, man.

01:31

I got flashbacks from conversations that I've had, and it's been more than one in my case, that were just like this.

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And you need to see what goes on behind the scenes, I think, with some of these big

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EVA institutions. These people are... Well, I'll have a lot of commentary.

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Let's just say that. So let's listen to it. And I'm going to start and stop like I always do and provide my perspective on it.

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But I've already listened to the whole call. And man, I just was like, I got to do videos on this.

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So here we go. This is a recorded phone call from Acts 29 leadership to two pastors that they were given the boot from their network.

02:15

And then we'll share some thoughts. Hey guys. Hey guys.

02:21

Thank you for the time on such short notice. I really appreciate that.

02:27

You better just stop there. The first thing I'll have to say, this is such a a gay way to do this.

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And I mean, as gay as gay can be, where you just like, you schedule a call and it's like, right.

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You know, the short notice, you don't give them the agenda. There's no way to prepare. And they're just going to blindside you with something that is, you know, either it's emotional or it's complex.

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And they like just blindside you by it. I hate this tactic with a passion.

02:58

I used to have bosses that would do stuff like this. And I would call it out at the time. Cause you know, I was, I was always a very tight, you know, a top performer, you know, in any sales job that I had, but I'd always have bosses that, that would do this kind of thing.

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It's strategic to kind of get you on your back foot to knock you off balance. And when, whenever they would do this to me, cause when you're good at sales, like you have a little bit of gravitas in the environment.

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Like you have a little bit of leeway. You can say things that someone that can't say anytime, this would ever happen to me in a sales meeting.

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I would say before I would respond, I'd say, let me just say something like the fact that you didn't tell me what this conversation was about before we're having this conversation.

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I just, I, you know, I gotta be honest with you that, that that's disrespectful. And then

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I would go launch into my, you know, whatever my defense or my explanation or whatever it was, my counterpoints leaders out there.

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Don't do this. Don't do this. If you respect the people that you're about to drop a bomb on, you know, you're about to say something that they're not going to like, give them the agenda.

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Be a man about it. Say, look, I want to talk to you. You know, you can pick the time over the next couple of days, but it has to be in the next couple of days.

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You can, you could throw your weight around a little bit, has to be in the next couple of days. And here's what I want to discuss. We're removing you from X 29.

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And, um, and I want to discuss the reasons why, like give them like the respect to have the, to know what's going on.

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Like, I just, I hate that. Matt and Chase, good to see you.

04:31

Hey, listen guys, this is going to be a hard conversation. And so I'd rather if it's okay with you to jump to what

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I'm going to tell you and then give you guys a chance to process and respond and ask any questions you want.

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If you don't respect the people that you're talking to and they're like your enemies. Okay. I can understand. You don't want to give them the agenda.

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You don't want to tell them what's going on, but if you respect them, you love them that, which they claim to do in this phone call a couple of times, do them the courtesy just to give them even the topic.

05:00

Maybe you don't give them every point you should, there should be no, there should be no secrets here, but just the respect to say, here's what we're going to talk about.

05:08

Is it going to be a hard conversation? I want you to prepare for it. Like, it's just, it's just so disrespectful.

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And it's obviously a manipulative tactic. This is the tactic of a manipulator and a poor leader as well.

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If that's okay with you. So you guys can demonstrate a pattern of behavior that's been combative and critical in nature.

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And we are not going forward with churches that can't wholeheartedly cooperate with our leadership and our work to plant churches worldwide.

05:39

So the entire senior leadership of the network is in agreement to remove you from the network as of today.

05:45

Guys, that's a lot. That's heavy. Guessing you're blindsided by that. And I want to give you a second just to take a breath ask questions and push back anything you want to do.

05:56

So he has a prepared statement. I mean, you can't tell me that wasn't a prepared statement. There's the verbiage of it.

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Everything you guys have demonstrated a pattern to be like, he has this prepared statement. Like he didn't even have the courage to put this in his own words.

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Like he, he, he blindsides them with a meeting and he has a prepared statement and he's ready to go.

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These guys, and it's like, and then he goes, and then, you know, take a minute, take as much time as you need and stuff like that.

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It's just, it's a power move, obviously. I mean, we can understand that. And I understand,

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I understand the value of power moves, but if you're going to be playing power tactics and power politics with people that you claim to love, like let's, let's not make any bones about it.

06:36

You consider me an enemy. I'm not a brother. I'm an enemy. I want to talk to my brother about something.

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I do this all the time. You know, I want to talk to you about this. Here's what I want to talk to you about. Like I don't blindside. I'm like, it's just, it's just unbelievable.

06:49

Anyway, let's continue. When you say the whole leadership, what does that mean?

07:09

Good question. If we have senior leadership teams, so vice presidents, board, uh, executive team, those that would be considered senior leaders, not necessarily a lower support staff or anyone like that.

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And is there evidence of our combative behavior? All right. So he just asked, is there evidence of our combative behavior?

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And he also asked, you know, when you say the leadership team, who, who do you mean right now?

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These two men over here, these are the guys that are getting booted from, uh, from eight to nine, you know, they're, they're, they are taken aback by this, you know, just like he said,

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I, you're, you guys are probably surprised. Um, and the reason why they're surprised is because there's been no previous conversation about this, but there's been no warnings.

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There's been no anything. And, and, you know, look, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a church network. I mean,

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I guess they don't technically have to give you any warning, but, but you know, if you respect someone you do, you hear we're considering this, we're worried about this.

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And so they're blindsided and they're, and what they're trying to do, there was a pause, a long pause there.

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And the first question that one of these brothers asks is who are you talking about? Because what they're trying to figure out is, okay, so has someone betrayed me or someone lying?

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Like, like what, what, what is actually going on here? They're trying to figure it out. And then the other brother says, is there any evidence of this pattern of misdeeds and stuff like that?

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Which is a very reasonable question. I remember there's been a specific example in my life where I was blindsided like this as well.

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Like I had a conversation and, and, you know, I'll just be as transparent as I feel like I can be without, you know, talking out of school kind of thing.

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But I was blindsided by my co -elder about something similar, a pattern of misdeeds allegedly.

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And, um, and I asked the same question. I remember asking, what do you mean?

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Like, what, what, what are you talking about? Like, can you, can you be more specific? Because that's not really that helpful.

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And I kid you not. I mean, I, I, I didn't record the conversation. It was a, it was an in -person conversation at the time.

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I was very taken aback, but I got an answer that was nearly identical to the answer they're about to give these guys.

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He's asked for evidence of the pattern of misbehavior, whatever it was, he said he had that prepared statement, right?

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A lawyer probably prepared that statement. What it sounded like anyway. Is there any evidence of this?

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Here's the response that I got when it was me and that they're about to get right now.

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It'd be good to know what that is. The whole thing guys is, you know, what we're talking about, like you guys, don't you guys have, you know, what we're talking about.

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No, the whole thing guys is, and he starts to stumble and stutter because obviously he has no evidence.

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He has nothing. He has nothing. He can point to that would make sense of this. Nothing. So what he has to say is, you know, what we're talking about.

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And it's like, it's like every manipulative conversation that I've ever been in where someone's attempting to manipulate me.

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And I ask for an example of what they're talking about and they can't give me one. And they say, you know what

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I mean, you know, and you're just supposed to like, as if you're supposed to say, oh yeah, totally.

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I totally understand about my pattern of misbehavior. And it's like, you know, if I did understand that it was misbehavior,

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I wouldn't have done it. I had my, when I remember talking to my, my co elder and he said this, almost this exact thing.

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And I said, I gotta be honest with you. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't, because we've never talked about this before.

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Guys, this is, this is, this is what lying looks like. If you can't point to an example, because you're going to, they're going to talk about this for a bit.

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And the two guys that are being kicked out of the network are going to repeatedly ask for examples because they don't know what, what, what, what these two mean.

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And they're going to be repeatedly rebuffed repeatedly. And they're not going to be provided anything.

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And it's like, look, I don't even need you to provide evidence of the behavior. How about just one example, just one example of something that's inappropriate.

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And the reason we're being kicked out, you don't even have to give me evidence that it's a pattern. You don't even have to give me statistics or how many times

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I've done it. Just one example. And they've got none. They've got zero examples.

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And it's just so manipulative. You know what we're talking about. They want you to, to incriminate yourself.

12:06

Look, if I thought something that I was doing was sinful, I wouldn't have done it. And I remember there,

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I mean, I've, you know, I've talked, talked about Jared C. Wilson before. And this is something that, you know, he, he had something against me.

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And it's funny. It's really funny because what these guys eventually end up talking about in like a really roundabout kind of way is something that was so similar to what

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Jared C. Wilson was scandalized about as well. In fact, it's the very same person that that's involved.

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And it's like, you know, like I asked Jared, I said, Jared, you know, I don't know why you're saying what

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I've said here is sinful, but I like, I'd like to talk to you about it. I'd like to know why, why you're saying that.

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And it was the same kind of thing. It's like, no, you know what you've done. And the fact that you're claiming not, this is what

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Jared has told me. He's told me the fact that I was claiming not to know is, is evidence that I'm not ready to repent.

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Therefore he will not talk to me because he can only talk to me according to the scripture, I guess, if I'm ready to repent.

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That's not in the Bible, by the way, that's not in the Bible. But when, when, when

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I, when I heard them say, you know what this is about in response to the question of,

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Hey, do you have any evidence of this? Like, that'd be helpful to me. Again, you claim to love me. Why don't you show me what

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I've done wrong? If you claim to love me, what have I done that has led to this? Because I don't want to do that anymore.

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I believe these two brothers that they don't want to do the wrong thing. They don't want to, to do anything hurtful.

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So they're asking, it would really help if you knew. And they're, that's the response they got.

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You know what you did. What we're talking about. No, we understand that we've asked questions. We've, we've been on phone calls.

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I just talked to Tyler Jones three weeks ago. So unless there's hard evidence,

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I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't know what, how we're defining terms as far as what is combative.

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What's, you know, so if you're asking for us to provide either pushback or clarifications, that's going to be a huge point of clarification to understand, as we report to our church and our elder team, what have we been accused of, how have we been found guilty, and where in the

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Acts 29 ecosystem, you know, we violated any terms of our arrangement.

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Right. I mean, that's, that's a very kind of practical concern. It's like, okay, so we've been kicked out of Acts 29 because of this pattern of behavior that you talked about, whatever it was, consistent behavior.

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And so now we've got to go back to our church and our, our, our congregation and say, you know, we're no longer in Acts 29 and they're going to say, well, why, like, what did you do?

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Because maybe there's some kind of, maybe we need to take some disciplinary actions. Maybe we need to figure something out.

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What, what, what happened? And they're going to say, oh, well, they said that we had a pattern of this behavior.

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And they'll say, oh, okay, I get it. Like, what, what are they talking about? And you even hear him, he's like, well,

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I know we've asked questions. I know we've, we've had conversations. And it's almost like he, it's, he's almost incredulous.

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He's like, but that can't be it. Right. Cause asking questions is not bad. Like, like that can't be what we're talking about.

15:35

Right. Like, could you be more specific? Cause we need to report back to our congregation and we need to submit ourselves to, you know, whatever it is we need to submit.

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I mean, we don't even know, cause we don't even know what we're talking about here. And so Acts 29 just like throws this grenade over to his church and, you know,

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I guess they don't freaking care what happens after that. We'll have to show you, you know, it's just, it's just unbelievable.

16:00

And, and, you know, I, my, my elder, the one who, who basically had this exact conversation with me at one point in time, he was,

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I think he was in a situation where, you know, Jared C. Wilson had influenced him to do this kind of stuff.

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And so Jared just kind of throws his, you know, grenade over there. It doesn't, doesn't freaking care what happens to the church.

16:23

Anyway, let's continue. Well, as it pertains to removing from the network, um,

16:29

Dave has said already senior leadership, and that includes all of us, me and Dave included on this call, but we also talk about the regular public fatigue, the regular, um, just.

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So this guy's not the sharpest tool in the shed. It's just that simple. This guy's speaking out of turn.

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This guy does not prepare like this guy did. And so he's just kind of shooting from the hip a little bit, which

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I think, uh, is, is so important because it gives you a window into what the actual problem is, what the, what the actual conversations were about, because he's a little bit more honest in my opinion than this one, because this guy doesn't have prepared remarks.

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This guy does. And so he like a freaky little slimy weasel, my opinion, not the opinion of these pastors, my opinion has carefully crafted a statement that, you know, gives him a certain amount of cleanness from this.

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This guy hasn't really done that. So he's going to be more honest in that way. And so he said, it's a pattern of regular public criticism is what he said.

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You know, let's, let's, let's go back and quote him correctly. Said already senior leadership, and that includes all of us, me and Dave included on this call.

17:47

But we also talk about the regular public critique, the regular, um, um, just, just the overall, it's the overall posture and the overall regular public critique of X 20.

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That's what I'm saying. The overall actually nine public critique of it's the whole bit of things.

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It's the whole gambit of things. You heard him. You heard it here first. He is, this guy said it's the whole gambit of things.

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Can't really make fun of him too much. Cause I say kerfuffle. So there you go. But here, here, he's now changed it and, and added, well, maybe not change it, but he's at least added a little color.

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It's the regular public critique of X 29 and the overall posture.

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So that's the new thing. The reason they're being kicked out of X 29 is the regular public critique of X 29 and the overall posture of regular public critique against X 29.

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That's, that's what he's saying. And so I can certainly understand from X 29 perspective, just to get their back a little bit.

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If somebody's, you know, in a position where they're regularly criticizing, you know, your organization publicly and their regular regularly have a posture of criticizing your organization publicly.

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I can understand you not wanting to be in there in on their team anymore, right? You could, you want to kick them out of the organization.

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I can understand that desire, but as we're about to see this whole idea of regular pot, overall posture of regular public critique is not true.

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And they're unable to come up with any examples of this. We're about to see that this is in fact a lie.

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This is not what it's about, but I could understand if you want to kick somebody out because you know, we, we've talked to you, maybe, you know, we said it's against the rule.

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If it's against the rules to regularly publicly critique X 29, if that's part of the rules and you signed up for that and, but you started to do it anyway and you get kicked out, well, you deserve to get kicked out.

19:59

You didn't play by the rules. It certainly doesn't seem like that's part of the rules. Number one, but even if it was, it doesn't seem like that's actually happened in this case, we're about to find out in just a second.

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So this guy, you know, because he's not as polished as this guy up here, he just kind of gives, he kind of spills the beans on what the real reason is.

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It's this regular public posture of regular public critique of X 29.

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That's, that's beyond the pale. You're not allowed to do it. Or at least that's what he's saying right now.

20:30

If Lee, it just doesn't, it's, it's not going to work.

20:38

What can you give me? I just am looking for an example. I've really been tried one principle we've tried to operate on in house with our elders is being wise about hold on one second.

20:53

All right, I'm back. If we are going to publicly critique the network, how we go about that and who we're talking to.

21:03

And so that's why I'm asking for a specific example. I'm not trying to be obtuse, or, you know, difficult or act like there's not tension.

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I'm not trying to pretend there's something up there. But we've always tried to operate with transparency towards you guys.

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So I'm just looking for an example that you could point to like, this is what you said here. And therefore, okay, so reasonably, he asks for an example.

21:30

Again, he says, look, you know, we're trying to be careful about what we say and what we what we say publicly versus what we don't.

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And we're always trying to talk about how to wisely do this or, or, or to, you know, we try to be transparent, you know, so if you could give us an example of what's, you know, what, what's out of bounds, like what goes beyond the pale?

21:50

Like that, that would be helpful if you could just give us, you know, one example. So that way, I know, and I could,

21:56

I mean, I can understand he's probably saying, look, like, like, I want to know. So that way, I can tell my congregation and be accountable to my congregation about why we were kicked out.

22:08

And they could, they could look at this and say, hmm, is that unbecoming of a pastor? Like, what's actually going on here?

22:14

What's actually going on there? And so he's asking, again, for an example. And I totally understand why he would, he would do that.

22:21

No, I hear you, Chase. I don't think we're there. I think the collective overall landscape of conversations, and public critiques, and that tension that you speak of, all collectively add up to, an entire senior leadership is very, is not wanting to walk forward anymore.

22:48

So he says, I hear you asking for examples, but we're not there.

22:57

And then he's subtly changed the, the, the, the, the, the situation. Now it's not only the regular public critiques, and it's not only the conversations, the private conversations as well, but it's just this, it's just this overall sort of overarching tension that's, that's, that's causing this.

23:15

So now we've added tension and private conversations. So, you know, he pushes back and asks for more evidence.

23:22

He says, no, no, no, we're not there yet. Whatever that's supposed to mean. What is that supposed to mean, we're not there? Like, I can't provide you evidence.

23:29

We're not really willing to do it. It's more about the overall, everything put together, the conversations, the tension and stuff like that.

23:37

Like, okay, which is it? He's just not, he's just not, it's not coming. It's not forthcoming. He says, we're just not going to move forward with you.

23:43

And it's not going to work. You guys in the network, me included, and that doesn't make you evil.

23:49

I just don't think you guys are a fit anymore. I just think it's time with, with that level of constant public critique.

23:58

Constant public critique. This is now like the fourth time he said constant or regular public critique.

24:05

That's a talking point. So he's revealed that talking point that, that, that what these brothers have been engaged in is regular or constant public critique.

24:18

I think it's good for you guys. I just am trying to understand what public critique, like what? Yeah, because I'm of a single public critique on some platform or anywhere.

24:31

I might be wrong. I, if I'm wrong, I'd love to know. I can't think of a single thing that I've posted negatively or shared publicly about X 29.

24:42

Yeah. So, so, so this is again, like, I believe these guys, you know, and, and they admit like, maybe

24:49

I'm wrong. Maybe I'm missing, I'm forgetting something, but I don't think I've ever publicly critiqued

24:55

X 29 publicly or said something that's out of bounds or anything like he can't remember.

25:01

So he's like, can you show me one? Just show me one. Cause I can't remember.

25:07

I remember saying something just like this. I said something just like this to my co -elder. Like, like, you know, can you give me one example?

25:14

Cause that would help. I honestly don't know. I commented on one thing by some guy that used to be in the network a couple of weeks ago.

25:26

I'm trying to think if that's an example of what we're talking about here. I'm just trying to, I understand that the, it's not that when you say the tension, what, what do you mean by that?

25:35

Maybe that. So, so this, this guy, the black guy jumped all over something.

25:41

He said earlier, he said, no, I admit there's tension. And now he's trying to get these guys to give him the evidence that he cannot provide.

25:50

He has no evidence. He's got nothing prepared. He's just, he's sick of these guys is basically what it boils down to.

25:57

He's sick of these guys. And look, if you're in an organization and you're just sick of someone, you can kick them out.

26:04

I mean, it's not a church. You kick them out. It's just a network, but he's sick of these guys.

26:10

And now, now what he's trying to do is he's, he's keen. And yeah, he admits there's tension. What do you mean by tension? Maybe, maybe that'll help because I don't have any evidence.

26:17

Maybe we, can you, maybe can you give me some of your evidence? It could, uh, but it's no,

26:26

I'm saying when you mentioned the tension. Yeah. So when we brought our concerns regarding various issues, regarding financial transparency, uh, direction of the network.

26:38

So, so we're now six minutes in, they've been told that they're naughty boys and they have to this point, these two have given them no evidence at all.

26:48

No reason, no nothing. But now he's saying, maybe it's this, like he's like trying to help them out.

26:54

It's like, is it this that you're talking about? I remember I commented on something. Is that an example of what you mean?

27:00

Because he doesn't think that that's criticism, but you know, maybe, I mean, maybe that's what you're thinking.

27:05

And now he's providing them, this guy's providing them options. Is it because I've criticized, uh, you know, money transparency?

27:13

But let's just listen. Who's in leadership. Like when I asked Tyler Jones, when I talked to him on the phone and I said,

27:20

Hey, like, it's a little odd. You know, when I was asking if Brian Howard was at an

27:26

Acts 29 church and then, you know, I know this. He's talking about private conversations.

27:33

Like he's not talking about public critiques here. He's, he's thinking about it and he's like, maybe they're talking about when

27:40

I was talking about tension, I was talking about these private conversations with this guy about this.

27:45

And is that what you mean? Like Harvey's church recently left the network.

27:51

And so Justin is our director of training and he's not actually in church. Now that's a, that's an influx, you know, what do they call it?

28:00

A situation that's like liquid or, you know, in process.

28:06

So maybe he's trying to get to an action. I don't know. Totally get that. Cause that just happened.

28:13

Sorry. He just got a phone, a text from his wife that said the police are about to call Matt. Just dealing with a meth head neighbor right now.

28:21

No big deal. Do you need to take that Matt? I don't want to keep you from watching.

28:27

It's fine. Every question asked Chase and Matt, nobody's saying when you ask questions, all of a sudden that automatically translates into public critique.

28:38

Okay. Okay. Sorry about that. So this guy, this dude has said, look, when you're asking questions,

28:45

I'm not saying that that's public critique. So questions don't count. So, so asking questions are not the same as public critique.

28:54

So, you know, again, he's, he's sloppier than this guy because he doesn't have a prepared statement.

29:00

But he's ruled out. It's not about questions. You can question X 29. That's not a problem. That's not what

29:05

I mean by public critique. Okay. Well, now we're getting somewhere. What do you mean by public critique?

29:11

A lot of public critique of X 29. But you're saying public, but I'm talking about private conversations.

29:18

I'm having leaders. You know what I mean? That's why I'm getting confused. It's like, these aren't public things.

29:23

These are just brothers chopping it up, trying to seek understanding. Just like I would want anyone in my church to do.

29:28

If they had a question about the other team, give me a call. And so that's what we've done. You know what I mean? Yeah.

29:34

I don't, I don't feel it's like that. And, and, um, as we pray and even come to this conclusion, nobody does.

29:45

So when you say that I hear you, but nobody feels that we do feel the tension and somewhat of, um, um, the critique being constant.

30:02

And this guy is a complete blubbering mess. This guy is a mess.

30:09

He can't answer anything. He can't respond to anything. All he can do is revert back to his talking points.

30:15

He's like, um, you know, um, yeah, you know, um, I just believe that it's constant. Okay. If it's constant, then it should be quite easy to give me one example.

30:25

Just one, just one. I'm not even telling you to show me that it's constant right now. I'm just looking for one because if it's constant, you should be able to just go.

30:33

Even if you're not ready to prepare, you could just go to my Twitter feed right now, or my Facebook or whatever, whatever platforms are talking about here and find it.

30:41

Cause it's constant. Right? So find one, find one example. Uh, you know,

30:48

I just know it's constant. Yo, it's just constant. What's he talking about? As of right now, we're eight minutes into this thing.

30:57

We have no clue what he's talking about. None. All we know is that it's constant and it's public and it's critical.

31:04

It's critical. And we also know that asking questions is not what he's talking about. It's not about asking questions.

31:10

It's critical. It's not asking questions though. It's constant and it's public as we know from this guy, the complaint about things in some regard.

31:20

And, but primarily it's just continually ongoing. So there's not like some head of some exact thing, but it's a collective overall.

31:32

So just to be clear, there is no, just go back to the original reason. I mean, like it's on, it's y 'all's prerogative.

31:39

Action 9 is governed in such a way that this is entirely permissible. So my argument, my concern isn't with the permissibility of this decision to be made unilaterally against the well or us,

31:53

I don't know, uh, not being part of the network anymore. I guess, you know, I just want to understand the specifics just to understand.

31:59

So you're not talking about public critique. You're just talking about you, the questions and the concerns and the perhaps criticisms in your mind tend to be constant, unrelenting and uncharitable.

32:14

How like, so these guys are, I mean, honestly, God bless these two pastors, man. These, these guys have, have so far displayed such restraint, such patience, such reasonableness.

32:28

Like when the Bible talks about let your reasonable business be known to all, like this is so reasonable.

32:34

And he's trying to understand something that is un -understandable. This guy has made zero sense.

32:41

He's brain dead on this call. Maybe he's a smart guy in general on this call. He's essentially brain dead.

32:47

And he said, okay, I, I hear what you're saying kind of, so let me just make sure I understand. You're actually not talking about public things.

32:55

You're talking about this tension and these private conversations and things like that, because everything you've just said,

33:02

I can kind of see where you're coming from, from private conversations that have been had and, and some tension about certain things that we've kind of talked about, you know, offline kind of thing.

33:12

So you're not talking about public critiques. You, you can make whatever decision you want, but you're talking about this stuff, right?

33:20

These are, these are not public critiques that you're talking about. Is that correct? He's, he doesn't know what to freaking say.

33:38

He doesn't know what to say because his talking point is that it's continuous and it's public. And he just said, well, everything you've just said, isn't public.

33:47

So is it right to, it's right that I'm saying, I'm noticing that, right? Like you haven't said anything public yet.

33:52

Right. And there's a long pause and he's trying to figure out what to freaking say. He doesn't know because he's lying. He's, he's, he's trying to think of a new lie.

34:01

That's the thing about lying. Lying is hard. Lying takes a lot of energy and a lot of emotional toll on somebody.

34:07

And so when somebody is lying, like it's very hard to kind of think quick on your feet, a lie that's plausible.

34:14

He's trying to come up with a lie, dollars to donuts. He falls back on the talking point. He's not too bright.

34:21

The collective overall reality, public critique, or even some private conversations,

34:30

I guess we could add, that's not where I'm going. I'm staying right into the public critique.

34:37

Right. But I'm saying that's wrong. Right. Right. So, so he, he, he, again, you could, you could kind of heal, hear the wheels turning in this man's brain.

34:46

He doesn't have too many wheels, but he's got some wheels and he's saying the collective totality of the, you know, we, we can even add some private, but, but, and so like, he almost like, he almost did a good job there.

34:57

Okay. I'll give you that. It's some private stuff too. And then he said, but that's not where I'm going. I'm going with the public critique.

35:03

Cause that's his talking point. He's right on message. He's on that talking point. And he gets interrupted because,

35:10

Oh, what public Like that's not right. Right.

35:15

I mean, like you see that, right? I don't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be saying it if I thought it was wrong.

35:22

I know. I know. I wouldn't have called you if I thought it was wrong. Now, listen, I could be wrong and you seem to feel that, but I wouldn't have called you heavy hearted.

35:31

I love you bros. I wouldn't be calling you all heavy hearted. Cry me a river with those crocodile tears.

35:37

I don't care about that. People have done this to me too, where they try to manipulate me by trying to pretend like they sound like they're crying.

35:43

I love you bros, man. I wouldn't have done it if I didn't believe it. I could be wrong though. I ain't have any evidence though, but I love you bros.

35:52

No, you don't. Because if you did, you wouldn't have made this up. You wouldn't have made this up.

35:58

Or you could say something like this. This would have been easy. This would have been real easy to do. You know, brothers,

36:05

I, you know, my bad. I should have been ready with examples and you're right, man. That was not fair of me to come at you like this, kick you out of the thing and not have concrete examples.

36:16

You are a hundred percent right. Let me, let me do you a solid here. Let me, let me tell you what I'm going to do. It's not going to change what's happening here, right?

36:23

You're still kicked out of acts 29, but I'm going to go and I'm going to find the kinds of things that I'm talking about for your edification, because you know what bros,

36:31

I love you. And you can even cry if you want. I love you bros. I love you guys.

36:36

And so I want to help you out. This is the kind of thing we're talking about. I'll give me, give me a couple days. You know, I'm busy. I'm a busy guy.

36:42

Give me a couple of days and I'll, I'll get back to you about the kind of thing I'm talking about. No, he doesn't say that.

36:47

He says it's, it's apparent. I wouldn't be lying to you. I wouldn't have called you bro. If I didn't believe it, like I'm sure you do believe it, but where's the evidence.

36:59

It's just so infuriating, man. It's infuriating because that's, that's the thing too.

37:04

It's like Jared has a number of times. So I forgive you, even though you don't admit what you've done wrong.

37:10

And I'm like, you haven't even told me what I've done wrong. I don't need your forgiveness. I don't even know what you're talking about.

37:16

If you loved me, if you actually had forgiven me, you would at least do me the courtesy of talking to me about my alleged sin.

37:24

So I can at least understand. And even if I don't agree with you, at least you've told me at least I can understand what, where you're coming from.

37:31

If you don't tell me what I've done wrong, I don't believe you that you love me. If you're not willing to do me the, the, the basic courtesy of, of, of giving me evidence for my wrongdoings,

37:43

I don't believe you that you love me. It's easy to say you love someone. It's hard to act like it.

37:51

And definitively, this guy over here, Doug or whatever his name is, he is not acting like he loves these guys.

37:56

He's acting like he loves himself. It's what he's acting like right now, listening to this, having to have this conversation.

38:03

If I think it's wrong, I don't think it's wrong. I think it's, I would just, I just love it.

38:08

I love like, this is like going to court and like present the evidence. Well, I don't need to,

38:14

I feel this way. Well, what is it? What would they do? Well, we don't need to tell you that we can just tell you they're guilty.

38:21

That's what I'm hearing. And as I'm interpreting it. And so that's, that's, that's. These are supposed to be people that are friends of yours.

38:29

They're brothers of yours. Like, like something like, no, that's not how this works, man.

38:35

You're saying that I've done something that's so bad that I can't even be in your club anymore. Can you at least,

38:40

I mean, you love me. You said so. Can you at least tell me what that is? Instead of giving me this

38:45

BS talking point, this, this, this prepared statement, verbiage of nonsense, that doesn't make any sense.

38:52

I'm telling you, I don't understand it. I'm telling you, I don't get what you're saying. I'm telling you,

38:58

I'm racking my brains trying to figure out what you're talking about here. Could it have been this?

39:03

Could it have been that? I can't think of anything. Can you show me? And it would have, again, it would have been so easy to say, you know what?

39:11

You're right. I should have been able to show you. I can't right now. Let me get back to you next week. I'll show you what, what

39:17

I'm talking about. He doesn't even offer. He doesn't even care. I love you though.

39:23

Cause I didn't do a thing other than try to help this network as much as I can. When I talked to Dave at the conference,

39:28

I expressed how much I love the network. I've been talking to guys, man, I'm here. I'm not leaving.

39:34

I do not quit on this thing. I want to be here. We've given this network hundreds of thousands of dollars and this is it.

39:41

And so it's kind of like, okay, cool. Like, you know, I mean, if there's nothing to be said, then there is nothing to be said.

39:49

But guys, again, they have level of heads about this. It's like, they're not flying off the handle.

39:54

I mean, they're upset. They're mad. I get it. I would be too, but they're like, if this is it, that's it.

40:01

I mean, what can I do about it? There's nothing I can do. There's no, there's no recourse here for me, but I mean, at the very least, could you just give me a, a real explanation besides the talking points?

40:10

Could you just do me a solid. It's going to be one of those things where I'm just like, somebody's going to ask me why?

40:16

And I'm going to say, I really don't know. I can't give them anything. You know what I mean? And I'm just like, you know, if somebody were to ask me, like we got, it's so funny to me,

40:26

Doug, because like, our network is about church planting. We're getting ready to launch out our next church planter. It's going to be real hard to be like,

40:32

Hey buddy, you should join Acts 29, you know, in all these things where it's like, we feel like if there's any church that's tried to be what

40:40

Acts 29 is, it's been our church. And so that's why we're so confused.

40:47

And yeah, we've had disagreements with leadership and decisions that were made. And we've always asked you guys, there is not a thing

40:53

I can think of that I've said to somebody else that I haven't said to somebody in leadership or haven't processed through with somebody else.

41:01

And so it just, it seems kind of silly to me. It seems like, it seems like we hurt somebody's feelings somehow.

41:07

And, uh, it'd probably just be easier to get rid of us than to deal with us. Yeah. That's what it sounds like to me.

41:12

I didn't say I like he might, he might know of something like personal where he hurt somebody's feelings since I'm an outsider.

41:19

I don't know what's going on here. What it sounded like to me was that they're just sick of you. They're just sick of you.

41:25

They're sick of you asking questions. They're sick of you sniffing around like their bylaws and stuff. They're sick of you wondering where their money's going.

41:32

They're sick of you talking to them about every little thing you disagree with. They're sick of you. And so they kicked you out.

41:39

They're just, they've had it up to here. So they're like, get, get out of here. They launched you into outer space because they didn't want to be questioned anymore.

41:45

That's what it sounded like to me. But instead of saying that and being honest, like, yeah, we're just not too fond of you anymore.

41:52

That would have been honest. Like at least it would have still been infuriating, but at least it would have been honest. Instead they said, well, there's a regular public posture of critique and the tension and the private conversations and you know, the pattern of disrespectful behavior and whatever it is they said.

42:09

I don't remember the exact full things of what they said. Instead they came up with all this, these lies, these lies that they can't defend.

42:18

That's what I sense. Well, one of the things that, one of the things

42:23

I make clear for both of you and Chase is as far as I'm aware is, cause I, I don't think anybody is saying you've sinned against people, their sin has been committed individually, person to person.

42:36

I don't think anybody, as far as the conversations I have, has any problem with you guys asking questions that would be questions of organizational integrity.

42:46

Like, Hey, where does Brian go to church? I don't think that's the issue. I think the perception is based on just people looking at social media, looking at other forums that you guys participate in.

42:57

There just seems to be almost, and I'm not trying to make this, I'm trying to grow our friends. I'm not trying to attach a proof text to this, but kind of a, a

43:05

Barnabas and Paul splitting over John Mark. There just seems to be a difference of fit right now where we don't.

43:13

That one brought me back, man. This is just a John and Barnabas kind of thing.

43:18

This is, man, that took me back. Like I just, I remember when I listened to this the first time I had a flashback of the conversation

43:24

I had with this co elder man and it was, it was an emotional conversation and he had just got done telling me that I, you know, essentially that I was sinning and stuff like that.

43:33

And, um, and then like we got to the point where, and I caught him in multiple lies.

43:40

Like, I mean, I've got all the receipts on it and I'm never going to show those to people, but I have them for when I talked to him again and cause

43:46

I told him, I said, look, I've got you in like multiple lies here in black and white. Like it's not disputable.

43:53

Um, you won't talk to me. The ball's in your court, man. I want to be reconciled to you. I want to, I want to address these things.

44:00

Um, and I have them ready to talk about it. That's what I told him. And, and like what he had told me was the same thing after, you know, we, he decided he had told me at one point that, um, everyone in the church was against me.

44:12

Like people had come to him privately. They were not comfortable with what I was doing online and stuff like that with the, with the critical race theory stuff.

44:19

And so then I said, okay, I call this bluff instantly. Cause I, honestly, I was at a place where I, I was ready to be corrected.

44:25

I was ready to be rebuked. I was ready to submit to authority. Right? So I said, you know what, here's what we'll do.

44:31

We'll get the three prominent families. The men of the families will all meet up and we'll also get an outside pastor to come and mediate someone we both trust.

44:42

And we'll talk about this and, and let's just, let's just get out on the table. I was like ready to go. Right. And he agreed.

44:48

He said, that was a good idea. And after that conversation, he said, uh, the, the, the families all said, you know,

44:55

AD, like I might not have said things, some of the things that you said, but it's not sin. I mean, it's doesn't, it's definitely not sin.

45:02

Um, but you know, I, it's, it seems fine to me. Like it's, it's not something you need to stop. It's not something you need to be rebuked about.

45:09

I mean, you know, I, maybe it's not for my taste. It's not my tone preference, but every single person to the man, not even a single dissenter was like, you know, to my co -author, you're in the wrong, man, you're not right here.

45:25

And so then after that it became, well, this is the Paul and Barnabas moment. And I said, well, okay, it's a

45:30

Paul and Barnabas moment. I gotcha. I gotcha. And he goes, he goes, this is that Paul and Barnabas.

45:35

And, and, and, and I understand. So, so let me ask you this. Why, why does it mean that I now have to stop something?

45:43

That's not a sin because of your, because you say, this is a Paul and Barnabas moment. We can't agree to disagree.

45:48

Why does it default to what you want to happen? Because that's basically what he's saying. This is our Paul and Barnabas moment.

45:54

And I can't be an elder with you if you continue doing certain things. And I was like, that doesn't make any sense.

46:00

Like when you bring up that Paul and Barnabas thing in this kind of a context, it's, it's basically because you have really no case.

46:07

You're just sick of me. You just don't want to deal with me anymore. And so you want to spiritualize that. I mean, that's fine. You could spiritualize that if you want to, but that's how it ended up.

46:15

And what ended up happening with the church is even though that everyone sided with me in the interest of peace, and this was a, this was a mistake on my part.

46:21

I should not have done this. In the interest of peace and preserving the church, I said, you know what? I'll, I'll, I'll step down.

46:28

I won't pass to the church anymore. I just won't. And then that way the church can continue and you can continue. You don't have to work with me anymore.

46:34

Let's just do that. That's, my heart was that the church would go on. It didn't work.

46:40

Obviously the church, he ended the church a week later anyway. So it didn't matter. I mean, he was just looking for a way out in my opinion.

46:46

Our Paul and Barnabas moment. Don't, don't give me that, that juking style. Come on, man.

46:51

Like just to have the courage, courage to say that I'm sick of you. I don't want you here anymore. You're a thorn in my side.

46:58

I don't like the way you operate. And now you're gone. We might fit theologically tight, but not, not philosophically.

47:07

It feels like that, uh, as people purvey and purview and review.

47:13

I'm pretty sure that Paul and Barnabas, when they separated, they knew why they were separating. In fact, it tells us in the

47:18

Bible why they were separating here. All we have is allegations and no evidence.

47:24

Like this doesn't help him at all. I don't get it. I don't get it. You're saying this is public, but it's not public.

47:29

What do you mean? They use this so they don't have to explain themselves. I mean,

47:35

I I'd respect these guys a lot more if they just said, I just don't like the way you operate. I don't like that. You're critiquing me.

47:40

I don't like that. You want to know every new where every dollar spent. I don't like that. You want to see the bylaws. I don't like that.

47:46

I like that. I prefer to operate in secrecy. I think you respect that social media and other places that they're just kind of subtle criticism of actually not where we are and what we're about.

47:57

And so, but you're not, you're not able to do that. Like my, did you hear what he said there?

48:03

He's now changed it. So he's now changed it again. They keep moving the goalposts. First it was like this pattern of behavior or whatever.

48:10

Then it was the public critique. This is overt public critique.

48:16

Now it's subtle critiques. Now it's subtle critiques. Now he hasn't offered any, hold on one second.

48:24

Let me just make sure I'm not missing a call here. I might be. I might be. Nope, I'm not. He hasn't offered any evidence still.

48:31

So I'd be interested to hear what he means by subtle critiques of act 29.

48:37

But what it sounds like to me is like you posted a general critique and I think you meant acts 29.

48:45

I think, and maybe he did, but he didn't mention acts 29. It's just kind of a general critique. I think you meant acts 29 though.

48:51

So that's the subtle critique. That's what it sounds like to me, but he's not telling me. He's not telling me. He's just leaving that up to my interpretation.

48:57

Again, this is a manipulative tactic. They keep moving the goalposts and now it's as simple as a subtle critique.

49:06

I understand that my, whatever I say on social may not jive as much as it used to with the ethos of the network.

49:17

So I'm not an idiot. Like I can see that. I just am failing to understand how it's been a direct attack.

49:26

Like when you messaged me, like remember Dave, when I posted a critique of Russell Moore?

49:33

Yeah, and I posted a critique of Russell Moore. That was a good conversation we had and I was wrong in that, Chase. I mean, you can do whatever you want.

49:39

I was harsh and I was wrong on that. I'm sorry. Well, okay. Yeah. And I've had good conversations with both you guys as well.

49:47

So I don't know if you caught that and they're going to talk more about this in a minute, but he said that I do remember a public critique

49:54

I made of Russell Moore and you reached out to me and this guy kind of jumps in and he wants to kind of sidestep this one.

50:02

He's like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. I was wrong. I was wrong on that one. I would love to know what that conversation was like, because that is the exact person that Jared C.

50:13

Wilson turned his back on me because I dared to critique Russell Moore. I critiqued

50:19

Russell Moore. And if you go back at the kinds of critiques I would make on Russell Moore at the time, they were tame.

50:24

They were like, you know, Russell Moore is a great gift to the church and he's great and I love him, but he's wrong about this.

50:31

That's me talking. And then, and that was too much for Jared C. Wilson. He couldn't believe I would dare critique

50:36

Russell Moore. I bet you the conversation that this dude had about that was the same thing, but he apologized for it.

50:44

So he's saying, no, that's not it. No, no, the critique of Russell Moore, that's not it. That's what he's saying now. Okay.

50:51

I mean, you don't have to do this. I don't, I, I, I mean, I guess that's the way it works.

50:58

But let me ask a pragmatic question. It's, um, it, it's kind of hard to hear this cause you could, man, that, that hurts, man.

51:05

That hurts. You could hear it in his voice. Like he, he just like, he's, he's not,

51:11

God bless those two men. They, they handled themselves really well on this call and you could hear the emotion come through in his voice that you guys don't have to do this.

51:21

Thinking about that Russell Moore conversation. I'm willing to bet that that Russell Moore conversation has a lot to do with this.

51:32

I don't know. He claims it doesn't, but just the way he jumped on that. No, no, no, no. I was wrong.

51:38

I knew I was wrong on that one. And the, and the emotion in this guy's voice,

51:44

I don't, I don't know which of these two brothers it is, but the emotion in their voice about that conversation, you don't have to do this.

51:53

That leads me to believe that there's probably a lot to do. It has a lot to do with that Russell Moore conversation.

52:00

All right, guys, we've been at this for 50 minutes. I had not intended to do this for 50 minutes, but we're going to go through this whole thing.

52:05

We just have to, this is, this is how Big Eva operates. This is these manipulations.

52:11

Look, we're, we're over, are we over 20 minutes into this? I think we are. Nah, not quite.

52:17

15 minutes into this thing, not a shred of evidence of misbehavior has, has come through.

52:24

The only evidence that, that has been brought up has come from these guys and it's nothing.

52:29

It's like, yeah, I had a private conversation where I was asking like, you know, where the money goes. And I remember

52:34

I had a private conversation about one guy, like, is he even in the network? And this guy's like, well, I remember that time that I critiqued

52:40

Russell Moore. And then you emailed me or messaged me. Like, I remember that. Like, and, and, and these guys are just like, yeah, it's just a pattern.

52:47

It's yo, yo, yo, it's the pattern of behavior. And I wouldn't believe, I love you. I love you dawg.

52:55

And it's just, I don't even know if like Chase would want me to be doing this.

53:03

Like, and, and this other brother, I don't, this one's Chase. I don't remember who this one is. I think I got that right. Is this one

53:09

Chase? I don't know. I don't know if these guys would even want me doing this content. I really don't. They didn't put me up to it. They didn't put me up to it.

53:16

I know I told them I was going to do content on it. They were, they were fine with it. I don't know if they would want me to have this kind of content, but I mean, it is what it is.

53:23

I mean, I am myself. This is just, this is, this is how it works behind the scenes, guys.

53:32

This is what it's like. This is what it's like. I've had an Axe29 person dispatched to me, a low level

53:38

Axe29 guy, cause I was never involved in Axe29. I had a guy dispatched to me that this is how our conversation went.

53:44

This is how my interactions with Jared C. Wilson have gone since he turned his back on me. This is how a conversation with my co -elder went.

53:51

I think in my opinion, it was at the behest of Jared C. Wilson, or at least getting, trying to get

53:56

Jared C. Wilson's back. This is how it goes guys. If you do something or say something that they don't like, this is what they do.

54:08

They call you. They gaslight you. They try to get you to say things.

54:14

They try to get you to do things and they will never ever, and they'll say they love you to your face, but they, they, they, they act as if you're, you're the enemy.

54:24

You're the enemy. They'll lie. They don't care. They don't freaking care. It's disgusting.

54:30

And I am so satisfied. I am so glad that this call was recorded and it is coming to light because this is what it's actually like behind the scenes of your favorite ministry.

54:44

Bottom line. In any case, I hope you found this video helpful, enlightening, encouraging.