Orthodoxy, Justification, James 2, Dale Tuggy, and Jordan Hall Rebukes Rodney Howard Brown

And greetings welcome to the dividing line. My name is James White I'm not sure where I'm supposed to be looking because we don't have any monitors on but that's okay.

There we go So we're looking over here. There we go Got to get that figured out someday.

Anyways, thanks for being with us today got a lot to get to today a video was posted that I wanted to get to a little while ago and it has to do with Hank Hanegraaff and John MacArthur.

And so I would like to start with that And I'm not sure which to do first,

I guess I'll basically, what happens is Hank plays a segment from It the way it was recorded almost sound like a

Q &A type thing it doesn't sound like it was recorded by grace to you and It is

John MacArthur commenting on Hank's conversion though I don't think he did so by name though was obvious who he's referring to and then

Hank responds with his standard James chapter 2 We're only talking about living faith stuff which is again

Hank Hanegraaff is not an official spokesman for Eastern Orthodoxy and there are a lot of issues in having him as a representative for Eastern Orthodoxy but he just basically quotes by memory the

English translation of James chapter 2 if you really You know wanted to impress us He could quote it in Greek because he was that's the big one of the big things of his

Conversion is we can do it in Greek and so on and so forth. Anyway, we'll actually be looking at in Greek And basically uses

James 2 as his rebuttal of John. I actually have Corrections to make to both dr.

MacArthur and Hank Hanegraaff on this particular issue But we need to hear what was what was said first.

So Let's hopefully this will come across audio wise Let's listen to What was said we don't need the since it's just the well,

I don't know if you're getting it I suppose we could put up because it's the Transcription of what's being said and the sound quality isn't all that good

So we'll we'll see how it goes here here. Here are John MacArthur's comments for the last couple of weeks you may have read famous evangelical teacher

And radio personality joined the Eastern Orthodox Church went through Ceremony or ritual called prismation in which a rag

Supposedly infused with Divine life was placed upon his head and transferred to him

This is an Eastern Orthodox ritual What does the

Eastern Orthodox Church believe about the gospel? Here is decree 13 from their dogma

We believe a man to be not Justified through faith alone

But through faith which works through love that is to say through faith and works

And quote that's what Eastern Orthodoxy teaches We are not justified by faith alone, but by faith and works

There are about 300 million people worldwide who are in the

Eastern Orthodox Church The sister church in the West is the Roman Catholic Church That has the exact same doctrine and there are 1 .3

billion people in the Roman Catholic Church worldwide So 1 .6

billion people call themselves Christians and believe In a salvation that is a combination of grace and works

That is false Christianity within true Christianity That is false

Christianity teaching a false gospel It is not to be joined. It is to be cursed

Okay, so And we don't need to bring that up there there you have the

Presentation almost sound like someone in the audience recording Chapel service or something.

I don't know a couple of things, I think there is a

I need to be need to be fair need to be accurate. We really are when we

Identify Eastern Orthodoxy as simply the mirror image in the West of in the east of Roman Catholicism there as I have tried to explain when

This whole thing first started one of the reasons that I've Avoided the Eastern Orthodox subject rather assiduously over the years is

I had the opportunity I think back when I was in seminary to have some fairly lengthy interactions with one particular

Eastern Orthodox individual who was extremely well read and Thankfully was able to somewhat bridge the gap that exists and there is a huge gap that exists the the

Mindset and the worldview of Eastern Orthodoxy is extremely difficult to communicate to Westerners For example, you'll notice that the citation that was given

Was said to be from their dogma well there there are

Specific books of theology, but anyone who really knows Eastern Orthodoxy knows that not only are there rather obvious differences and emphasis between the various Communions within Eastern Orthodoxy, but that the essence of Eastern Orthodoxy is that They're not dogmatic

Their their liturgy Determines their beliefs more than a manual of written words and So It's really hard to to get

Westerners who are accustomed to being able to Reach over here and grab the

Catechism the Catholic Church. Well, at least up until Francis Who has decided to change this too, but grab this and Go, okay.

Well, here's the section on Indulgences and here's what it says about that.

You know, we like to be able to do that kind of thing And that's you just you can't really do that with with Eastern Orthodoxy At the same time it is quite clear that Eastern Orthodoxy does not believe in Sola Fide for numerous reasons men some of which

Hank doesn't touch on Because I'm not sure he fully understands that issue and what

I mean by that is Part and parcel of why we believe in Sola Fide has to do with our biblical

Anthropology we can't bring merit Into the situation because of what we believe about man's nature in the

Fallen State Eastern Orthodoxy does not share our Understanding of the corrupted human nature at all.

It really has a very plainly minimally sub biblical and in the vast majority of instances anti -biblical view of the will of man and the capacity of man in regards to the issue of salvation, so immediately the whole issue of Sola Fide is sort of It's it's almost like asking

What exactly does blue smell like in a red world? Now that may be an interesting question on Twitter or Facebook these days but for most of us it doesn't make much sense because the categories are all wrong and they don't really intersect and That's one of the issues in dealing with Eastern Orthodoxy is the the the differences are more fundamental

But they're not as easy to actually enunciate and lay out because of the nature of real

Eastern Orthodoxy there's you know, there's sort of the westernized version Which ends up looking more like Roman Catholicism than it does anything else but it's a version and It's it doesn't really represent the the heart and soul the essence of Historic Orthodoxy as it exists in those lands where it has sometimes been

Very much Turned into the nominal religion of the masses.

Anyway, so I would I would disagree with dr. MacArthur that that Rome and Eastern Orthodox are pretty much the same thing and even though both would deny

Sola Fide, I would say that they do so for differing reasons and Not recognizing what those issues are can be somewhat confusing, but they do deny

Sola Fide that much is is true and so Obviously Hank responds this he starts off talking about how many times they've played golf together.

I want to announce to everyone right now I have never played golf with Hank Hanegraaff and it's not because he wouldn't have invited me to but I just don't play golf

Okay, and I think that has probably kept me out of a lot of difficult situations

Don't get me on that anyway Hank's primary response was simply quote

James chapter 2 and give the standard Almost Presbyterian answer that faith alone saves the saying faith is never alone, but that that's not a meaningful response within Eastern Orthodoxy in light of its doctrine of the sacraments its

Liturgy of the sacraments the centrality of the sacraments to its liturgy as well as the whole concept of Energia energy in Eastern Orthodoxy, which is a very difficult concept,

I mean It's it's hard for most of us. I mean it really It strikes us as almost

New Agey the way that most Orthodox in Orthodox lands and I'm obviously influenced primarily by my experience within Ukraine at this point

View their churches as Well, remember remember what year was it what year was the

Convergence up in Sedona. Do you remember that? What was that called the harmonic convergence?

the harmonic convergence took place up in Sedona Arizona, which was a beautiful city.

It's still a beautiful area, but it's just It's commercialized and creepy now.

I mean, that's the best way you can put it and Maybe somebody can google it or something when the harmonic convergence was but there was you know, all these weird people

Descended on Sedona, Arizona for the harmonic convergence well To be honest with you.

There's there's a parallel To the magical idea amongst

Orthodox of the Energia the the energies that go, you know, they they go to church because this is a place of energy of being able to You know obtain this special energy type thing and and it's

What? 87 Wow really 1980 30 30 years ago.

I Didn't I didn't if you'd asked me was that 30 years ago?

I would have gone. No But somebody in channel saying the same thing It's just look folks

It's when you get to be our age, especially rich who is considerably older than I am

But when you get to be our age, you know 30 years drop in the bucket. No big deal

Pretty soon that only be half the time we've been alive. So hey, you know, it's it's it was like yesterday anyway

That's that's neither here nor there. Um so while we can

Honestly recognize The differences between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy We likewise

Thank you Tony's Tony's Watching hi,

Tony. Dr. Tony Acosta. I'm gonna be playing a portion from your debate today Tony. So that'll keep you tuned in So while we can recognize the necessity to address these issues,

I think they need to be This needs needs to be very very carefully handled and I I've explained this before Orthodoxy can be just as formalistic and dead as Romanism.

No question about it but because of its less dogmatic structure,

I Think there is a little bit better opportunity for someone in that context to have that simple faith than there is within the

Roman context and It's primarily because of the mindset of East versus West that opens up a wider realm for that and I know it's harder for Westerners to to wrap their minds around that kind of stuff, but that's why

I've tried to avoid That that as much as I possibly can't anyway

With that in mind, I want to I'm not gonna go into super super deep

Depth on this, but I do notice that for most of our audience when we do

Exegesis on the text in In the program people really respond very very

Positively to that and so I I want to remind us once again

We've done it over the course of the years a number of times but I I want to remind you that every word of Divine Revelation is the

Anustos and that there is a danger for many of us who are involved in apologetics and in Interreligious evangelism

That certain texts that are misused and abused Can take on a negative hue in our thinking

Well, I don't like that text. I wish didn't I wish didn't say things the way it says things etc, etc

We have to be very very careful of that Every Every word of God is pure and Even when scriptures are misused

We must just all the more seek to handle those texts correctly so let's once again remind ourselves of the truth of James chapter 2 and We'll take a look at it and if we could move over here so I can see my computer and When dealing with the subject of James chapter 2

I meant camera wise When dealing with a subject

James chapter 2 We have to and this is what makes it difficult

It is a lengthy discussion It's not in nice little

Verse size, you know just a verse here verse there. You have to deal with an entire section of pericope a division of the letter and So it requires reading of the text it requires

Time and so often our conversations with people are far too brief you know, it's it's sort of like we've we've become accustomed to Twitter level discussions and There are a lot of really important truths that just simply defy even even 280 characters or even 280 words or even turn 80 minutes and And so The key to handling

James chapter 2 is not what kind of illustrations you use the the key is to start where James starts the discussion and to remain consistent with this point and James begins the discussion verse 14 of chapter 2 and That's where he says

What use is it? My brethren If and then he uses a certain one just someone he's not doesn't have a specific person in mind

He's describing a kind of person who says

Who should say? That person has faith that he possesses faith

But Does not have erga works so the first thing to note is this is a nameless person who legate just says

Makes the the profession with the mouth. Oh, I believe

I have faith But it is descriptive of this individual that they have no

Corresponding External reality to their statement of faith

So what use is it my brethren if a certain one says I have faith

But has no works Then and this is

I believe the determinative issue in this text because Depending on how you come down on here

You will either have John James in contradiction to Paul, which is what obviously large majority of modern scholarship wants to do well, okay,

I'll take that back a significant portion of modern scholarship wants to do or You will have

Paul and James saying the exact same thing. And of course today you're not allowed to have that You're not allowed to have

Harmony in the text that's not could get you anywhere. It's not could get you published That's for sure. And that is the last phrase may do not

I hate pistis. So say out on when you start with a may the

Expected answer to the question is going to be negative If you're doing it rhetorically and expect a positive answer, then you use ooh, so some would say

Faith cannot save him. Can it answer being? No, but the issue is obviously the phrase hey pistis faith has the definite article before it and the reason that it has a definite article is it is referring back to this use up here and That is a faith that has no

External evidence of its existence. It is a leg a faith

It is a faith that is simply Stated Without evidence it's in the subjunctive.

It's not in the indicative. And so it is a said faith and so the question is that kind of faith a

Said faith is not able to save a Faith that has no evidence of his existence a faith that exists only in the realm of words and claims

Now is that what the rest of the passage is going to substantiate? It is

But we have to keep that in mind The New American Standard says can that faith save him?

But I believe the New King James simply says can faith save him leaving out the article and weakening the connection between the faith that was specifically referred to in the preceding portion of the verse and What is being referred to here?

so the first example if a brother or a sister is naked

Without you know without clothing and in need of daily food

So they so these people are a sister or brother is destitute and again one of you

Same, you know just general idea of not anybody specifically in One of you says to them

So it's not the exact same term of saying but it same same concept so one of you speaks words

Go in peace be warmed be filled with food, but you do not give to them the

Necessities of the body What good is that? Now notice notice the parallel if you look look up above James 2 14 starts with Tita Athalos and Verse 16 ends with Tita Athalos and so he's making the exact same point.

What what good is it? You have spoken words to them, but you've not done anything.

There is no Corresponding reality the words you said were be warmed, but you didn't warm them be filled, but you didn't fill them

So they are empty words without a corresponding reality

Which means that it's not true faith that this person is professing to have but merely a said faith

What good is any of that is? The point of the

Apostle James and hence his conclusion is in verse 17 even so also faith

Aeon may a K erga if it is Without works if it is alone if it exists only in the speech if it is only something that is claimed

If it is just saying to someone be warmed, but I will not warm you be filled, but I will not feel you fill you

Necro est in koth. Hey, I'll tame it's it's dead Being by itself and there is the issue

Necro est in koth. Hey, I'll tame it is by itself

So this is a faith that is unnatural and if you're going to try to as many people do

Create a schism and Hank Hanegraaff wasn't doing this by the way, I don't want you to be confused if you try to create a schism between Paul and James You are you you have to misrepresent both of them

Because When James said it's the kind of faith that James is talking about is not the kind of faith that Paul is talking about When he talks about faith, for example as the gift of God Yes, it's part of the whole

Aspect of what God does and if he's chapter chapter 2 verses 8 and 9 not just faith all of salvation all of grace faith itself gifts of God When he does that He then goes on to say that that God that did all these things

Ordained that we should walk in good works so Paul is very plain and Those people who think they are promoting sola fide when they are produced actually promoting solo fide a

Faith that has no correspondence to the work of the Spirit holiness repentance anything else these individuals are grossly misrepresenting both

Paul and James and The liberals who are attempting to say oh, well, obviously, you know,

James is trying to correct Paul. He's contradicting Paul Likewise are misrepresenting and misunderstanding what both

James and Paul are saying did Luther understand James Maybe not Maybe not

As I said more than once so much to the infallibility of Luther But it's a very straightforward statement when you allow it to stand in its context that the faith that he's deriding which he says cannot save is a spoken only

Faith it is not the faith that Paul speaks of as the gift of God The work of the

Holy Spirit in the hearts of his people that we find in Romans 3 4 8 so on and so forth it is dead because it is alone and this text is also the

Classic refutation of the quote -unquote free grace cheap grace non lordship salvation

Material that is that is out there that is so embarrassing to evangelicalism well

I'm sure that evangelicalism can be embarrassed. But anyway verse 18 but one of you will say

You have faith and I have works show me your faith apart from your works and I will show you

My Faith by my works. It's a very very Will not take the time even go into the

You can even see well you saw when it was all that there's all sorts of Textual symbols in the text there's a

You can you can see You know here and here and here and here and here and there the the difficulty of the expression in the original language has given rise to Numerous textual variants to try to smooth things out, but the main point can be understood if you want further discussion

God who justifies 24 pages I think on this text goes into more depth than you may enjoy going into but does anyways

The point is this true saving faith is

Demonstrated by its Consistency with the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the redeemed the balance and see that the the fear that the anti lordship people have is that if you allow for Anything other than a mere head faith

You've opened the door for all the work salvation systems that are out there

What they don't seem to get is that the balance is struck perfectly by reformed theology

Because it recognizes that even saving faith is the work of the Spirit of God In the hearts and minds of God's elect people

So you you don't open the door to any kind of human merits any kind of synergism to any kind all that stuff

Goes out the window When you recognize the centrality of what the

Bible says about the doctrine of election verse 19 you believe

That either there is one God or God is one it could be translated either way You do well the demons believe and tremble.

So he's like he's he's pointing to that term pisteuo again You believe and you may have right

Belief because there is only one God No question about it, but that's not enough

Because of the fact the demons likewise believe that theological truth

But that doesn't change them They know that simply means that someday they are going to be judged

In a in a awful way, but will you know are you willing?

Literally to know Oh Foolish fellow empty man that faith

Chorus tone air gone and then there are

There's a textual variant here and I popped it over there Are you willing to recognize you foolish fellow that faith without works is useless

So That would be ken a but Many other manuscripts including the

Byzantine manuscript tradition have Necro is dead going back to the preceding utilization and I haven't looked at the

ECM on this I should Well, this says this is an essay of 28 so it did not change it so Is this

Nestle yet? Yeah, this is essay 28. So they they did not change it. They stayed with our gay which would

Let's see, where's okay text is right here. So evidently Even though ken a has a has papyrus support necro is

Sinaiticus Alexandrinus a number of others as well as Byzantine reading Evidently CBGM the coherence based genealogical method, which

I'm trying to get wrap my head around these days Did not either change or continue to support the reading of our gay at James 220,

I'll be looking at the ECM on that when I get an opportunity to to do so ECM is the new the editio

Critica mayor, so it's the new Massive critical edition the

Greek New Testament. I'm not sure how many volumes it will end up being but it'll probably be around 20 and James has done the general pistols were done a couple years ago and axe came out a couple months ago

And I'm hoping mark is next but it probably won't be mark. It'll probably be John The reason being my studies on p45, but anyway

That's neither here nor there So faith that works is useless dead empty the the point that James is making is that a

Faith that exists only in the spoken realm. You can't let verse 15 14 and 15 just slip away here a

Faith that exists only in the spoken realm of words only that's what chorus tone

Ergo and means when you if you confuse the context that James himself offers with Paul's discussion of law obedience

Good works of or works of law You're you're going to create

Absolute havoc and there's no reason to do it a contextual reading of Paul He says faith alone saves but a saving faith is never alone contextual reading of James says faith alone saves but a saving faith is never alone

They're both saying the same thing they have different emphases and they make those emphases clear in their contexts

So are you willing to know Oh foolish man? The one making the statement be warmed be filled.

I have faith. I believe there's one God But I don't care about the Lordship of Christ I don't care about repentance and I don't care about holiness and I don't care about that Jesus said and he loves me keep will keep my commandments.

I don't I Don't care about any of that stuff Well, will you know the faith that works is useless empty dead whatever reading you want to have there?

Was not Abraham our father Justified by works in the offering of Isaac his son upon the altar

Well once again We have an opportunity here Because the

Apostle Paul addressed the same issue He addressed the justification of Abraham but Paul did so specifically in regards to his justification before God and Said that it took place

Romans chapter 4 very plainly in Genesis chapter 15 Not Genesis chapter 12 not

Genesis chapter 22 his whole argument When did this take place when he was circumcised or uncircumcised?

he gives it a specific place because the first use of faith in a narrative of Genesis is

Genesis 15 and So he says this is when Abraham's justified

Well as James saying something else not if you allow what has already come in the text to speak

Because what has he said? He has spoken of Saying to someone else

External to a to the watching world be warm to be filled He has said show me he's used the

Missouri State thing. Show me So he's talking about Demonstration of the claimed faith and so Abraham's faith was justified in his obedience to God in The offering of Isaac you might say well, but nobody saw that.

Oh, really? God did the angel did and who is that other guy? Oh Isaac.

Yeah, not Ishmael. Sorry. Sorry Muslim friends Isaac Likewise you think

Isaac wasn't changed by that? You better believe he was You better believe he was talked about changing his life forever in his understanding of faith and everything else that goes along with him

So you see that faith and Y 'all now if if y 'all are

Calvinists, I want to make sure you're not riding your bike or something or running or Driving a car or like one of our one of our good friends listens drives a truck

Actually, we have a number of truckers that listen, but razors kiss drives a drives a truck We don't want any accidents out there or anything else but The the term that is found there faith was working with his works is sooner guy

Yeah synergism. Oh No Yeah, but doesn't really have anything to do with that conversation the point being that there is a necessary recognition that saving faith in reform theology gift of God given the elect of God as a part of their regeneration and Since it is

God's intention to conform them to the image of Christ then

That conformance Flowing from the work of the Spirit of God is not a meritorious addition.

It is a natural reaction to being a new creature in Christ it does not change a human faith into a saving faith

It is the natural and inevitable result of the work of the

Spirit in granting Supernatural faith and So his faith was working together with his works verse 22 and Ectone ergo and from the works the faith was completed or perfected so saving faith is

Demonstrated and perfected When there is Corresponding reality to what that faith claims it is a dead and useless faith

When that corresponding reality does not exist If you don't have a divine decree if you don't have sovereign grace, this will inevitably lead you to a work salvation system that's why you got to believe everything the word says and when you start

Picking apart the teachings about God's sovereignty and grace you end up with work salvation systems even amongst non -roman

Catholics It's inevitable. You've got to have that balance And the scripture was fulfilled which said and Abraham believed

God and was reckoning him as righteousness And he was called the friend of God Genesis 15 6 notice

This is hearkening back to a to the previous text Genesis 15 6 Even though the offering of Isaac is a number of years later.

And then finally only after all of this Do you get the text that is normally cited?

You see and it's funny how many people jump in here you see you see what I Mean, I mean the very fact that you jump in at 224

Means you've skipped that the very words itself show you you skip something You see that a man is justified ex -aragone chi uke ek pista os manan pista os manan faith only see there's faith alone

No, manan would be alone apart from works alone as in empty useless

So when someone cites this Against the Reformed understanding of Sola Fide, they're

They're they're tilting at windmills because that's not what we're talking about That's not what James was talking about either because when he uses manan what he's meaning is a pista os that has no aragone a

Faith that has no works. It has no external demonstration of its reality

Which is the inevitable result of its being a divine faith a saving faith

That doesn't mean that my aragone Add to the pista os the faith the merit that is necessary To give me right standing before God Once you start down that line no matter where you add that in You're not going to be able to have an understanding of Romans chapter 8 or any of those things and again

That's why people try to say James was contradicting Paul There's no reason there's no nothing contextually that drives us to have that understanding of what

Paul is saying now We are what James is saying we could go on from there, but that's normally how far most of it goes there are other

Examples that they were given after this body without you know for just as the body without the spirit is dead

So also faith that works is dead again Talking about the kind of faith

By which we are justified we are justified Now see what Rome does is Rome says we're justified by a living faith.

What do they mean by that? we are justified by a faith that has added to it the entire sacramental system and So people trying to avoid that will well if you can get imbalanced about that Then I'm gonna get imbalanced on this side.

It's the old tug -of -war thing You've got 1 .6 billion people over on that side pulling one direction

So we better pull this direction and become imbalanced and I look

I understand The motivation and the pressure to do that to become imbalanced, but we can't because when you do that there's always another heresy waiting right over here and Once you get imbalanced over on this side now they've got you the only safe place for lovers of truth is standing firmly right in the center of God's Revelation once you get imbalanced one way or the other

Somebody's gonna get you There's always somebody waiting. So just a quick Just a quick Reference there to James to Hank Hanegraaff John McArthur issue that came up there wanted to want to address that next real quick I Have over the past year or so Gotten numerous tweets and Face well, not

Facebook messages because my Facebook you can't do it to me on Facebook I you can do it on the AO page, but I don't see a lot of that stuff

So and you don't see a lot of stuff on my page that I'm not sure what how that's not working, right? Anyway, I've gotten a lot of stuff about.

Dr. Dale Tuggy and When I first heard

That name It rang a bell and My recollection was that I had seen a

Fair amount of information on That's that individual over on try a blog and I remembered reading some articles on try a blog that were dealing with alleged

In incoherencies in the doctrine of the Trinity from some guy named Dale Tuggy and Having looked at them.

I had gotten the impression that Dale Tuggy's Thing is that he's a philosopher

He's not basing anything on Being driven by revelation.

He's driven by philosophical categories And So he's just saying well, it can't be this because of this philosophical

Conundrum here that philosophical conundrum there or you know if I don't accept your utilization of language here, then this doesn't work over there and and stuff like that and You know the guys that try a blog even though they're a couple of them don't like me very much.

That's okay We've all got our place in the kingdom and they may not like me, but I say god bless him anyways It Seemed to me that the guys that try a blog had done more than sufficient job in taking apart these these arguments and so I didn't

I didn't give it much thought because You know, I've got a got a book here called the

Forgotten Trinity. And what does it say right at the beginning? I'm a biblical Trinitarian. I I'm not a

Trinitarian because I studied philosophy and went This is compelling to me I find this reasoning compelling and so I'm a

Trinitarian because I believe the Bible is the Word of God and It reveals to us that there is one

God It reveals to us that there are three divine persons who are not confused with one another

And it reveals the full equality in that one Divine nature who is that one

God who is Yahweh of the Father the Son the Spirit and so all of the

Discussion that has taken place since then To explain that and as the gospel has gone out in the world to to interact with different perspectives the world has to go back to those foundational realities and philosophers just don't have those foundational realities to go back to and And that's not my interest

I'm not interested in debating with people who are basically philosophical Philosophically oriented rather than biblical oriented so or revelationally oriented

I mean because because I deal with a lot of Muslims But they believe in revelation. I mean once you become a liberal

Muslim, we don't I don't have much to say to you either Then again, I'm not really sure you're a Muslim at that point, but that's another issue

Well, I made some comment either on Facebook or Twitter Maybe on the program.

I don't remember Basically saying what I just said and off the universe became unglued.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, you don't understand he's He's no. No, do you do you don't understand where he's coming from?

And so I looked it up. I looked up in my Downloads, I think it was

July I Downloaded a 50 minute something like that Presentation by Dale Tuggy.

Oh, it was based on that hymn title That that beautiful hymn and can it be

One of the lines in in and can it be a wait a minute never mind. Oh Well, I did have it queued up it went bye -bye

I Was gonna even play a section from that Wonder where that went anyways,

I I had it and Won't be able to live look for it. I was gonna play just a section of his comments.

So I Listened to it While doing

I think it was a 12k row or something like that I just happen to remember it wasn't a ride.

It wasn't run. It was I was rowing and Much to my non shock it was exactly what

I predicted it to be Was exactly what I predicted to me. It was not biblically based.

There's no exegesis. There wasn't anything like that at all It was purely well, you know some philosophers understand it this way and then some people ask this question some people ask this question and It was it was it was a philosophically based

Not revelationally based presentation, which is exactly what I had said And so I was like, okay, that's that's what

I expected. Well now I'm guessing he's challenged me to debate and stuff like that Well, that's nice Actually, I'm not trying to be dismissive

But I do have the right to prioritize my time and what

I think is most important and We are looking at you know, these these issues and may even produce some materials and response to some of it but For those of you saying ah, well, you know,

I had some guy on Twitter about the Brannon house stuff You know or back in May they were saying hey come to Memphis and debate

Osama duck duck on my program and all the rest of stuff and I even said back then excuse me

But I'm like out the country till like mid -november and guess what? It's mid -november and I say, okay

I'm pretty much done traveling except for one trip this year How about I come to Memphis and take on the lot of you?

in a fair moderated even time debate specifically on biblical texts and Of course, they're all out flossing their cat's teeth at this point in time, which

I like the hashtag and Twitter is true I do love cats. I have two cats.

They were born on my back porch. They're feral back then they're Not feral anymore

They do still drag dead well, sometimes not even dead birds into the house

Yes, I have chased Mortally wounded pigeons around my kitchen a few times, but that's what happens when you have cats.

Um, anyway, um But but I'm I am thankful the

Brannon house and his entire gang are so concerned about feline Dental health that they would need to be flossing their cat's teeth

But basically they've run for the hills No, I could do that because they know that they have misused 2nd

Corinthians chapter 6 verse 14 they've misused 2nd John and If they were forced to get in a situation or wasn't a monologue, it was an actual dialogue

It was actually debate equal time actually had to defend themselves. They would not be able to do that. They know that So I Was pointing this out and one of these

Unitarian jumps is it? Well, yeah, well you won't you're running from a debate with Dale Tuggy as if that's the same thing as If there's even a parallel, so there's there's a very small group of very vocal very vociferous

Unitarians out there, you know the Anthony buzzard group and they're still smarting over the debate

Between Anthony buzzard and Joseph good and myself and Michael Brown you know, they're still doing reviews of that because they just lost so badly and So they they've got to get back in the game and so this is the way to do it and all the rest that stuff well, you know, maybe someday it'll happen after I get done working on p45 and coherence based genealogical methods and all the rest of the things related to that but I Don't see that as the highest priority for me

And maybe others will be able to do some work in those those areas And so please stop tagging me with hey, did you know

Dale? Yeah, I know And Doesn't it's not gonna not in my not in my wheelhouse right now and Maybe sometime in the future

We're looking at developing some information in that area, but it's me for somebody else to do not for not for me

So I wanted to mention that Okay next This is what everybody's been waiting for.

Anyways, you're all been going would you get done with all this Bible stuff? I Wasn't gonna bring up any of this stuff today, but yesterday

I saw an article Posted by JD Hall about him going to a

Rodney Howard Brown event and From what

I understand This took place in a place called Dickinson, North Dakota, which is across the border

From Sydney, Montana, which is where JD Hall lives According to Google Maps.

It's a 2 hour and 11 minute drive But of course Google Maps is assuming that people up there have some knowledge of something called a speed limit

So it's probably a little less than that, but it's 128 miles away The shortest route via 251 to looks like 94 so I read

This article from JD Hall and I found very interesting that according to to JD There's almost there's

I guess no scripture read at all The Rodney Howard Brown was primarily talking about conspiracy theories and and promoting

Donald Trump who knew I didn't know Now See a part of me automatically wants to believe

JD at that point Because I don't have any reason to have any positive

Spin whatsoever to anything Rodney Howard Brown says okay, I think it's false prophet his theology is completely whacked and The Bible so plain that the work of the

Spirit of God does not bring the kind of lunacy that Rodney Howard Brown Brown brings But brings so from this moss sound mind discipline

Not Wild -eyed laughter and rolling in the aisles and all the rest this insanity that has brought such a

Disrespect and disrepute upon the gospel of Jesus Christ, but at the same time

I can't be sure Because it's Jordan Hall that said it and I know that how often

Jordan Hall misrepresents me I mean the last program we played that that ridiculous videotape and we tore it apart

Was easy to do because it's edited so, you know when you've got the original So When Jordan thinks you're on the wrong side of things even if it's just this far off let alone that far off He can't be trusted as to how accurate he's gonna be and what he says about you.

So that's what he said happened My first thought was to believe him, but I'm not so sure

I don't know That's the problem when you do the things that Jordan does anyway he really strongly emphasized so so he's talking about what goes on and then he says he stands up and he rebukes them for the lady pastor and not having the gospel and not having scripture and is hustled out of the auditorium and Thrown on the ground and he he cuts his finger and and I'm not sure if he even said he broke his hand and and Sort of gets gets pounded on by these big guys and then the cops show up and The other hit the guy who's with him

I guess I thought I think the term he used was threw some tracks to somebody and one little lady came out and Threw out the names

Paul Washer and John MacArthur or something and something about not feeling that it was spiritually, right?

What was going on in there and a few things like that? And so I I read the article and I was just like, oh well

Yeah, Jordan does some interesting stuff, doesn't he? Then I got this morning and it's all over the place.

Everybody's talking about it and there's a newspaper article Which of course as you'd expect in a newspaper article

Focuses upon the alleged misogyny. You shouldn't have a female pastor.

I don't expect any media outlet To even be semi -fair

Even in an incident like this, but you're giving them carte blanche Just go ahead and blow my head off here because of what you've done by the way you've behaved.

I Mean you can't even complain about their misrepresentation given what you've what you've done

And so everybody and their second cousin is is talking about it and I didn't

Didn't want to go there. But once once Even Jeff the GK was talking about it

It might my silence would have been louder than than my commentary upon it a couple of things here

JD does he says I've never claimed to be persecuted. I've never claimed to be persecuted But JD's a smart guy and he knows

Exactly what he was doing exactly what he wanted to have happen. He thrives on this he thrives on This kind of Opposition as he would interpret it

And notoriety that comes along with it. He's being manly He's standing up for something see it's it's that manly

Christianity he thinks is what he's showing To the world. That's why you would drive for 128 miles

From your home church, which he says in his neighborhood. Okay, if you want to say it's in your neighborhood you drive 128 miles and you go into a service and I hate to hate

I would hate to even call it a worship service if as reported it's a Religiously oriented

Donald Trump rally But you're in somebody else's church and You stand up It takes some guts

You stand up and you you start yelling now it takes guts on the one end, but one of the most obvious things to me

How long ago was the shooting in the church in Texas Hasn't been three weeks it has it.

I mean you're taking your life in your hands Don't you have children?

Don't you have a wife church? You're taking your life in your hands and Not only that you're scaring the people around you to death

But their heretics who cares ah, there we go What what really was being communicated these individuals

You see I don't think JD Hall cares about what the heretics think he's hoping for the one or two people in there and So they think

I He's lucky all he got was a beatdown and I'm not excusing the beatdown but This is the same guy

I didn't take the time to go get it, but it's online everywhere This is the same guy that posted on Facebook I Think more than once because I've certainly seen it more than once a picture of his own pulpit in his own church

Has a gun rack in it with a shotgun now,

I'm sorry But I can't put together How somebody in their own church?

Has a shotgun underneath pulpit goes somebody else's church stands up in the middle and starts yelling and Then would would have any grounds to complain about getting beat down when he's dragged out

Less than three weeks after 27 people were shot down in a Southern Baptist Church in Texas. That's just dumb

Okay, I mean that's just lacking any kind of common sense and common wisdom Whatever it was he said every word he said may have been absolutely true, but he just doesn't get the idea

That how you speak the truth is extremely important and When you speak it in such a way that you're filling your audience with terror

That they're about to get shot up Ha It shows that all you care about is saying the words not communicating to the people

It's you again, not your audience same thing with the debate That was the whole point.

I'll sit back eat popcorn. This is great Why because it was all about what was being said and not the ability of what was being said to actually communicate to anybody

Evidently from his perspective if you are concerned about that Then you're namby -pamby effeminate sissified.

Whatever else might be so a lot of people a lot of people

Immediately started to try to say to Jordan dude. Do you really think that was wise?

Now I raised the issue Um Yeah, someone just mentioned on on Twitter Well, the pulpit bunker guys said on Facebook that Jesus went berserk in the temple.

So what is wrong with what JD did? Jordan isn't Jesus Well, he's just imitating him.

Well, he can't die on a cross either We have been given specific

Commands in Scripture that limit the range of our words and behavior and put specific controls upon the expression of Our wrath and our human nature and he's ignoring them

He doesn't think they apply to him that's what makes it dangerous for him and for all of us that are of necessity associated with him theologically as If this represents all of us when it does not so I raised the issue

Years and years ago, I went into a

Mormon War Chapel Glendale 6th Ward Bishop Stanley Buell my mind hasn't gone completely yet Trying to remember

I would be Was it okay Probably like 84

I think Somewhere around there because I was newly married.

So it may have even been earlier than that may have been as early as 83 Long long time ago my wife and I attended the

Glendale 6th Ward because I wanted to see it was an afternoon if you know how the Mormons do It they the various ward buildings are used throughout

Sunday similar to Kingdom Hall's Where they get multi -use, you know, it's not just one congregation.

There's a number of cars. Yes, sir Let's let's be clear. You didn't attend you went to the 6th

Ward. It wasn't something that you Attended just wanted to make sure that anyway, and so we will continue on after that brief commercial break um, and so I was we had gone to the service and if I recall correctly, it was the first Sunday of the month and It was fasting and testimony

Sunday and so The service that we went to that my wife and I went to they invited anyone to come forward who want to give a testimony and then we just sat there and we sat there and evidently there's a there's just a time period and If nobody gets up you just sit there twiddling your thumbs and the kids are squirming around and crawling around on the floor and stuff like that I Remember my wife

We'd only been married a short period of time here. And when they said anybody wants to come she just looks at me like You dare?

Don't you dare and I'm sorry glance. We're like, oh So we left

And Oh Man, do I do I do

I do that? Yeah. Yeah, there it is Um here

Let me play with it here a second I Think this is Chrome Yeah, can you zoom in on that?

Oh No Well, I've got window

Jordan Hall Chrome. Oh Unless this isn't unless this is Safari, but I don't even think no

No Well, all I can do is There can you zoom in on that?

Well, then it ain't working Well, I want to show it to you but for some reason our thing has stopped working and I don't have any idea why but it has so yeah, that's

That's always worked in the past. But evidently it stopped working So I was gonna show you the shotgun the pulpit, but it it it no working anymore.

So we drop that down So anyways, so we we go to That service and I go

I've got to go back next month because they said anybody who has testimony to give and So the next month we went back this time.

There were five of us and Time came if anybody has

Test one. I didn't just go Jumping up and running up front. I waited a minute or two and then

I went back Right as I got up somebody else got up so I had to sit down next to the bishop up front

While this other guy gave his testimony and then I got up and I had memorized I forget how many verses on justification by faith and I Was I started off by saying

I'm very thankful with this opportunity, especially In light of the fact that I'm not a member of the

Church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints well, I have over the years told the story a number of times and Mormon Ward services tend to be noisy they were family integrated before anybody else was family integrated and so there's kids moving around and there's just this hum and As soon as I said,

I'm not a member of the Church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints You Could hear a pin drop in that place.

I mean, I've only slightly jokingly said that the little kids were like You know frozen mid move

You know, even though the kids, you know, it's like Bing. Everybody's been starting to fall asleep. It's like Bing and I had everybody's attention.

Well, I only got through about five my verses when this little piece of paper flies over my shoulder and lands on the pulpit and Says brother white our time is up.

Well, I knew their time wasn't anywhere near up. He was just giving me the bums rush So I wrapped up and I sat down and the line formed well from my perspective to the right

But it was to the left the pulpit all the missionaries man, and they are all bearing their testimony right at me

So their time obviously wasn't up and then as soon as that was done Before the priesthood meeting the first counselor was right at the end of our pew saying the bishop would love to talk to you and So we went into the bishop's office and we talked that's where I found out that there are

Mormons that believe that there are individuals who are perfect in this life and so I memorized a bunch of Verses on the universality of sin as a result of that so I've gone into False churches and Have gotten up and spoken but is that the same thing?

Well, of course not We were invited to come forward There was no restrictions placed upon if you have a testimony to give

Come give it so I did and when I was asked to finish up I did and we didn't interrupt anybody else was saying

We didn't go into the priesthood meeting and say you're all a bunch of false prophets because you don't actually have the Melchizedek Priesthood or anything like that We were not we were not drug out and beaten anything along those lines and so There's There's the difference.

I Don't I don't have any problem. You know, I've gone into mosques But I was invited to go in This is a situation where you're going into a service and you are purposefully interrupting it now

Many many people Obviously have the rather obvious question here and that is so JD what are you gonna do?

if Somebody shows up at your place and stands up in the middle and starts yelling that you're a misogynist or that you are

You know, I mean all the things you're accused of a Lot of which is false

Some of which may be true What are you gonna do how are you gonna know whether that person is armed or isn't armed

When do you when do you reach under the pulpit there? Someone has posted in Twitter the screenshot.

I wasn't for some reason able to put up When when do you when do you go for the shotgun?

On what basis let's say let's say they're completely nonviolent like you say you were

And you have your guys remove them so you can continue the service on what basis do you have any complaint

That they've come to your your church The only only foundation you have to say yeah, but I'm right and they're wrong

Okay, so you you expect the governing authorities to decide between the two of you as?

To who's right and who's wrong? I wouldn't have any problem if JD and his gang

Drove down there and stood outside that church Passed out tracks maybe held signs had conversations with people

Tried to warn them about the false teachings of Rodney Howard Brown fine But where is your

I saw this amazing statement. I'm sorry. I forgot to bring it up But one of the comments in defense in his self -defense that JD made on Facebook Was were to go into all the world and that includes

The synagogues of Satan, okay, we definitely have

New Testament Examples of the Apostles going into synagogues and getting cast out of synagogues

But The point there was that the synagogue they were

Jews and They would be asked to give a word because visiting people especially trained as rabbis

Would be given that opportunity to say a word to have the opportunity of exhorting and so they would use that Because they that was a continuation of their

Jews, this is this is the best place to start and Paul did go into the

Areopagus But again, he was invited to go into the Areopagus. He didn't go into the

Areopagus during some stoic philosophers Talk and Stand up and say you're all a bunch of pagans.

There's only one true God And then got hustled out and beaten up Other than that,

I can't think of a single city that Paul went to that didn't have a plethora of synagogues of Satan pagan temples galore

I Can't think of a single time when Paul took his time to go into those pagan temples and sit there quietly until the time was right and then jumps up and Gets three sentences out before he's dragged out to the street to get beat up Can't can't think of that happening any time.

So where is the wisdom in this? What what's what's the foundation of this do you really want to start a situation where all of us have to start wearing name badges

That we're a part of this church before we can get in Less five minutes into the sermon

Do you really want to start a situation like we have on university campuses where anybody?

Who is trying to say anything outside of the socialist? Worldview stuff

People jump up and start screaming and try to shout them down You want that in our churches?

What what is accomplished by this? Now Jordan Hall contacted me when

I said I was going to talk about this today and Well, as you said to me is I need to be careful not to ascribe motivations to him

And I wrote back and I said I have to admit I laughed soon as I read that because I can't think of anybody these days

That is known for doing that more often than you Your gift of discernment your ability to remotely read hearts is

Exactly that but you don't want it turned on you. No. No you you had Let's say you had the greatest motivations in the world.

It doesn't change the foolishness and immaturity Of what you're doing and how you're responding to people because I Was talking about the response

What was Now, I wish I had brought that up Well part of the response interestingly enough was that JD had had the opportunity

Pastor Hall had had the opportunity To write a column for the local paper in his hometown.

I guess there's two papers I'm not sure how there's that many people to have two papers, but and the editor of One of those papers that he had a column in Commented on Facebook that as a result of this your column is canceled

No more opportunity to do that now

Pastor Hall stands before his Lord for the decisions he makes But I see a direct connection between the attitude

That we talked about on the last program Exemplified and not only what

JD is saying, but what he's doing in regards to Leighton Flowers and that kind of hard -nosed

In your face if you don't do it this way you're a feminine Namby Pamby Sisyphide Calvinist attitude and what's going on here?

It's it's it's the same thing it's all connected and You see what's happening

You see what's happening? Yeah, yeah, this was just a

Yeah, this was yeah I did see this and Andrew Rizko was the guy Some dude named Jesus made a whip and went berserk in the temple once and you're going you're giving some hillbilly a tough time

For speaking up in church good thing. This guy never called them a brood of vipers. That would be utterly unacceptable well,

I Guess if you can accept that kind of thinking then you can accept the idea that We We should approach the doctrines of grace without grace and We can ignore what

Ephesians 4 says and all the things that go along along with it So That's what happened and so I wanted to want to address it

Not for a second if anyone for a second says I'm defending Rodney Howard Brown You just proved that you have no ears to hear

I just don't believe that you I think the most effective way of dealing with a Rodney Howard Brown is the clear open proclamation of the truth

Go ahead and play clips from what he says and then Demonstrate them

Devastate them biblically Christ sheep will hear Christ's voice. Yeah, but we can't get the word out to enough people

You got to go where they are. We'll go to the church stand outside Trust that God will bring Christ's sheep to you

But going in there and interrupting the service How many of us saw the clip of the

Prophet from was it Ireland or Scotland that went into John MacArthur's Church?

The Scotland We all saw him getting drug out Was was was anybody who's a fan of John MacArthur?

Made to go Wow Should really think what that that guy made that that guy made sense

We didn't even understand half what he was saying And I doubt most of the people in there have any idea what

Jordan Hall was saying either Because they were getting ready to duck under their seat or reaching for their concealed carry weapon that brought it might be because you just if for no other reason if for no other reason that It was only what two and a half weeks

Since the shooting in Texas. What are you thinking? I Mean, that's not the only reason but that would be more than enough of one.

That would be a more Than enough of one. Yeah. Well anyway Ah Do I even try this?

Because I've still got I've still got two Topics on here and I've got a second. I've got a video queued up but the only way to even start doing

Justice to either topic would take a minimum 15 minutes and then we're then we're ended up going for a whole two hour mega edition and I was gonna try to keep it

To the jumbo edition. And so I think I'm gonna keep them Which may mean, you know,

I don't I don't know what we're doing. We are gonna do a program next Tuesday We're only doing one program next week and So yeah,

I could probably do the textual thing first And I could probably fit all that into an hour hour and 15 and then have enough time for a few comments on the subject of Thanksgiving it's a

I I spoke on that specific topic at Apologia Church on Sundays, so if you want to go to their website and Grab that discussion on the the concept of Thanksgiving as one of the key

Christian Attributes a thankful person is a person who truly has faith in God and recognize

Nice that God is good. And that's why we can be thankful So I think we'd have time to do that on Tuesday for some reason won't be here on Thursday I certainly hope that you have plans for that.

I cannot believe that we only have the week after that and if I recall correctly

Yeah the week after that I Leave Thursday morning of the week after that for my last trip of the year and That'll be my trip to st.

Charles where I will be doing the five points Calvinism I guess it's been like 16 17 years since I did.

I guess that was the first topic I did there and This would be my like my 16th Visit to Covenant of Grace Church van

Lees and the the gang Ken Gontars and and All the folks there in st.

Charles. And so if you're in the st. Louis, Missouri area We'll be there

Friday night Saturday and then Sunday morning as our normal our normal schedule and so Then it's

December and I said last year. I said 2017 is going to be the shortest year of my life

I've spent one out of every six days overseas one of every five away from home So yeah, it's it's been

That's it's been fast it has been fast Lot of opposition, but I guess when you're doing as much as you possibly can

Do you expect the opposition that's just I guess the harder you work the more it's gonna come so Was there a reason why

I just want to double dovetail first of all on your point about talking about Thanksgiving next week I I think with the the tone and tenor of what we have seen this year it's a good idea to sit back and focus on Thanksgiving and Recognize why we do what we do why we need to do what we do and to be thankful for God's provision his blessing and In a day and age where we can actually see

God's hand of protection and restraint being lifted. I Mean, I think the evidence is all around us we need to Continue to be humble and hope that this doesn't come our way and Stand strong in the onslaught at the same time and didn't weren't you wasn't there something you wanted to say in the last program?

And right after we'd say oh, I forgot to mention. Yeah little bookkeeping note literally bookkeeping We have encouraged folks that donate and I do encourage you to donate to alpha to make a ministry support us, please

But we've encouraged folks to use checks to donate and It didn't occur to me when

I went down that road to let folks know Hey, you know when you do send us a check for the first time send me your email address and That way

I can send you a receipt an email and when we receive them You know that we've received them that way nice and easy and it's an automated system.

So that makes it nice as well so please if you do Send us checks to support us but have not been receiving regular

PDF Receipts from me that I don't have your email address and you can send that to donations at a omen org

Donations at a omen org and that's all I really wanted to say. Okay. All right. Well you had mentioned that last time so I Wanted to make sure you had the opportunity of saying that again.

So that also takes us right to 90 minutes. That's a good even even number.

So thanks for watching the program today. Like I said Next Tuesday, we'll get together for our pre

Thanksgiving Dividing line and then off to st. Charles. Hope to see some of you there