Arguing In Church

No Compromise Radio

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:01

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

00:08

No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the apostle

00:16

Paul said, "'But we did not yield in subjection to them "'for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel "'would remain with you.'"

00:24

In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

00:30

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her king.

00:41

Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry. Steve Cooley, thank you very much for your, for your...

00:51

You're welcome. Okay, good. He's like, I really don't have anything to thank

00:56

Steve for, but... I'd like to thank Steve for everything he's done. Such as...

01:05

Final answer? Steve, I don't know why I tend to look at the

01:10

Christian Post weekly, but I guess maybe the answer is it gives good no -co -fodder.

01:16

So we have something to talk about. I thought it was because you liked the way Tom Rainer thinks. Well, I like his analysis.

01:23

I don't necessarily like his remedy all the time, but I like his analysis.

01:29

Yes, he analyzes things, I think, pretty well. Okay. Yeah, and he writes blogs and books and other things as the

01:37

CEO of LifeWay. 10 common topics of church member arguments.

01:43

And so Tom basically says, you know, leaders, they work through issues in a local church and doctrinal issues and theological issues and biblical issues and what hits close to home for a pastor.

02:00

But he said, church member arguments, what they're arguing with, what they discuss, it's a little bit different.

02:07

And so he comes up with some things that church members argue about and church member arguments.

02:13

And I know they do this, and these are, I'm just looking at the list now and I'm going, these are all things that make me smack my head.

02:21

So these are all head smackers. So I guess if I want to redeem the show, if you're listening to No Compromise Radio today and you go to a church outside of Bethlehem Bible Church, because of course we do everything well, right?

02:37

Yes. Well, yeah, I mean, sure. But what you want to do is make sure you differ with the leadership in a biblical way, in a godly way.

02:50

There's nothing wrong with saying I disagree or that's not the way I would do it. Or there's just a

02:56

Christian way to act, don't you think? Yeah, and here's what I'd recommend as you get ready to listen to this show.

03:03

Open up your hand and have it ready to smack your head, so. Now, see,

03:09

I want Steve to be branching out. I'd like to kick

03:15

Steve out of the Tuesday slot time sometime to have his own show and happy day spawns off Laverne and Shirley.

03:22

He offered me Thursday at two o 'clock in the morning. And I was like, I don't know. Yeah, but V &E will pay you to do it.

03:29

As long as you don't say anything about Ravi. Okay. So Steve, but this is a bad way to try to spin off when you say just take hand, slap head.

03:39

Well. Although, isn't it really true though when we think about our own lives?

03:45

I think about my own life and think, Mike, that sure was dumb. That was stupid. That was sinful. Why'd you do that?

03:51

Kind of preaching to ourselves. We are all sinful and foolish. That's why we try to point you to the one who never compromised in light of his building the church, but take hand out, slap head.

04:02

Well, I think some people when they listen to this list are gonna wanna at least, let's just put it this way, take their open hand and put it over their mouth because they're gonna realize that they've done some of these things.

04:12

Tom says there are 10 common topics for church member arguments.

04:18

He said, my purpose in this post is not to offer my own assessment of each argument, just to point out common issues in many churches.

04:25

So are these issues in your church? Okay, number one, worship and music style. Now let's just forget that he's thinking worship is not preaching and giving and everything.

04:35

You know, we want worship to go up. We like worship, but musical style. All right, do people still argue about that these days?

04:43

Yep. I mean, we get phone calls about it, you know, or like if something is a little bit more modern and hip and it's done as the special music and maybe some older people don't like it.

04:59

If it's too old and fuddy -duddy, then the younger people go, you know, I really miss my old worship music, air quotes there, because it used to really rock.

05:13

Steve, I've had people come to me and they say, we sing these great hymns for which we're thankful, but the piano player plays them too fast.

05:25

Then I guess we could get somebody else who would say they're played too slowly. Too slow, it's a dirge, you need to speed it up.

05:34

Most churches, I would think today, evangelical churches probably have a hybrid of hymns and contemporary hymns, contemporary songs, don't you think?

05:45

I think probably most of them have done away with the hymns. I mean, I, you know, for the most part anyway, or if they do use the hymns, they're set to a nice hip hop beat.

05:57

A mighty fortress. Number two, now

06:03

I don't know about this one here. Volume of music. Volume of music. People in the church argue about musical style and they also argue about the volume.

06:13

Yeah, I don't know about that one, the volume. I don't really know about that. If he means volume, let's see.

06:19

You know, I think if you mean volume, like the length, you know, the number of songs,

06:26

I think that might be because some people are like, you know, can we have another five minutes of worship music time?

06:32

And so, you know, they extend from 45 minutes to 50 minutes so they can, they still have time for the 15 minute sermon.

06:39

But I think what he's talking about is the loudness factor. And it shouldn't be a concert.

06:46

You know, you shouldn't have to worry about ear damage just by going to church.

06:52

I think coffee house concerts, galas, galas, events, are fine to go to whether it's a secular band or a

07:01

Christian band. And if you want to go see, what's the band that, what's the

07:07

Christian band, kind of a surf band that's crossed over? Yeah, Switchfoot. You want to go see Switchfoot and it's cranked up?

07:13

Well, that's fine. But worship music is supposed to help the congregation sing, right?

07:19

It should facilitate congregational singing. And when you can't hear yourself sing, I think it's too loud. Yeah, that's the beautiful letdown.

07:29

Oh, turn up the noise. Number three,

07:34

Tom says there's common topics for church member arguments. Number three, reasons why churches die.

07:40

So is there really a debate in churches that are dying and they're arguing why do we die? Why are we dying?

07:46

I think it might be because we're arguing about why churches die. Church euthanasia? Yeah, I don't know.

07:52

With all due respect to Tom Rainer, I think he's... Well, maybe he's specifically looking at some

07:58

Southern Baptist churches and they're dying on the vine because of X, Y, and Z. Yeah, maybe. I've never heard that argument.

08:04

So let's move to number four. Number four. I have heard this one. Proper attire for church services.

08:12

Okay, I have never posted on this topic, but that has not stopped some pretty lively comments and posts that are tangentially related at best.

08:20

I'm still debating whether or not I should give my tithes, not tithes, but tithes to goodwill.

08:26

Depends on how bad your tithes are, Tom. So I think Tom's a pagan because he should be giving his tithes to Salvation Army or a

08:34

Christian organization, not some secular humanist goodwill. Not to goodwill. Philanthropy is fine.

08:40

Yeah, we don't really think he's a pagan. But what the point is, though, getting back to the proper attire, people say, well, what should

08:48

I wear to church? And for me, that's just really not an issue.

08:56

In all my years of being here, however many of that is, maybe nine?

09:02

Yeah, nine, I think that's right. Coming up on, actually, it'll be, it's 10 this year, isn't it? Really? We should probably have some kind of de -celebration.

09:08

No, let's not. 10 years this year, and we have never asked somebody to leave or told somebody they were inappropriately dressed.

09:18

Now, oh, you know what? Maybe there were some issues with T -shirts that young men wore that we didn't particularly care for, and so maybe we,

09:27

I think we said something to their parents, but they were like rude, obnoxious sayings on their

09:33

T -shirts, which just doesn't sit right. But other than that, I can't really think of many issues we've had with how people,

09:41

I don't care if you wear a T -shirt and jeans. I don't care if you wear a tie. I don't care if you wear a tuxedo.

09:48

The question you have to ask yourself is, am I gonna be a distraction to anyone during the worship service?

09:53

That should be the main thing. But do I think more highly of somebody who wears a tie and jacket?

10:03

No, I mean, because it doesn't reflect, but if you look like you just rolled out of bed, there's another issue there, so.

10:12

Steve, what do you think about churches that try to market themselves as come as you are, no dress code, everyone welcome?

10:22

What are they trying to say, really? I talked a little bit about this on Tuesday night because somebody, and actually this came up on Sunday, somebody brought up the idea of Hawaiian shirts for pastors and stuff like that.

10:34

You know what, I don't really care if a pastor wants to wear a Hawaiian shirt, but here's the thing, what message is he really sending?

10:42

The message, in my opinion, that he's sending is, look, I'm not any different than you guys who are hearing me preach.

10:50

The message I think he should want to send is, I respect the word of God, I respect the

10:56

God of the word, and I'm here to represent him today. And if he thinks the best way to do that is in a

11:04

Hawaiian shirt, that's fine, but I don't think that's why people wear Hawaiian shirts. I think it's because they just want everybody to know that they're no different from them, and that's really not the issue.

11:13

It's the wrong focus. Our focus should be upward, not horizontal. Steve, if I lived in Hawaii, if I moved out there, and everybody in the church -

11:23

This is a lot like Hawaii, isn't it? Yeah, you know what, looking out today, it is, yeah. It's very interesting out there.

11:31

Okay, it's not that I never would wear a Hawaiian shirt on a Sunday morning. I don't prefer to do it if I'm in Hawaii preaching, and someone says, you know, this is what you wear in the morning, and I'm a guest.

11:41

I understand all that, I just go along. But it's what the pastor is trying to say, and you're exactly right.

11:49

I think what I'm more flabbergasted about is clergy that wear gowns and robes, because the priesthood of all believers,

12:00

I believe it's true, and I believe that the pastor is not set apart in any way, shape, or form from the congregation, except when he goes up to preach, but then

12:11

I don't wear garments and garb and vestments. That hearkens of, of course,

12:16

Roman Catholicism, but that's old temple worship style. The priest have to wear this, that, and the other.

12:22

In the New Testament, no, the pastors, they're set apart by 1 Corinthians, 1

12:27

Timothy chapter three, that talks about a proper dress code. Hmm, I was like, you know, as you said that,

12:35

I was like flashing through the first seven verses in my mind, and I'm going, I, I, oh, you're joking.

12:42

A bubber approach, a husband of one wife, and doesn't stick out in a crowd. Natalie attired. Holy haberdashery.

12:53

Now, it was said of John Owen that he was a dandy. Did you know that?

12:58

Very nicely quaffed. Yes, he was a dandy. Well, I, you know what, here's the thing.

13:03

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I mean, I certainly, when I see Al Mohler, Al Mohler jumps out at me, because he always has the pocket squares, and you know, he's always got the

13:12

French cuffs and all that stuff. Now, do I think, oh, well, he's just trying to elevate himself above everyone else?

13:19

No, I think he just understands that it's almost like, I would argue, it's almost like a uniform, but it's not a uniform in the respect that we're trying to prop ourselves up over everybody, but we are just, in fact, showing that we have respect for the office, we have respect for the word of God, and we have respect for what we are to do, which is to try as we might to adequately proclaim the word of God.

13:45

That's right, and so this is not legalism. These are suggestions, and these are our rationale for doing it.

13:51

When you work for corporate America, you wear a suit before you go make this big presentation to the doctors.

13:58

Why? Because what you wear goes along with your purpose, and so I have a serious purpose.

14:04

I want you to take me seriously. I mean what I say. This is a professional setting. I represent a company.

14:11

There are all kinds of factors, and so I don't mean the church as a company, but I wear a suit and tie or a jacket and a tie to say what

14:19

I'm doing is serious. I take this seriously. I'm not wearing my wretched

14:24

T -shirt, right? I like wretched radio, but I don't wear the wretched T -shirt. Time and place.

14:30

Right, and so I say I represent someone else. This is serious, and in our culture, you want to show the highest bit of professionalism that you can, you'll wear a suit, and so I wear.

14:42

What you just said is such a great point. I mean, think about it. If the man in the pulpit was to say, I'm an ambassador of the

14:49

Lord Jesus Christ this morning, and I'm wearing my wretched T -shirt, my no -coat T -shirt, whatever, why should anybody take that seriously?

15:00

Or my orange, coat -orange T -shirt, or whatever.

15:06

Why should anybody take you seriously? I mean, is that, it's not the clothes that make the man, but they certainly establish a baseline for how seriously he takes his task, so.

15:22

Let's talk about this a little bit more today on NoCo Radio. Steve, many times people have come up to me and have said, you know, so -and -so is dressed inappropriately, and this particular case that I'm thinking about is some lady's got a low -cut dress on, and she shows too much.

15:38

Well, how do we work through that? What I'm trying to tell the people is, you know what?

15:46

This is the least of our worries at the moment. If it's an elder's wife, okay, fine, not good.

15:53

But we have some visitors, and the visitors say to themselves, hmm, I should probably dress up for church.

15:58

They haven't been infected with church growth policies yet. I should probably dress up, and I only have casual stuff, and I have nightclub stuff.

16:07

And so they dress like they've just come from the nightclub. And so what do I do? I try to A, look at them in the eyes, and B, I say, thank you for coming.

16:17

I'm glad they're here, because if you do get saved, you are slowly going to be transformed, not just on the inside, but it'll show itself on the outside.

16:26

Steve Jenea, who used to come to the Bible study, he had hair down to his knees, literally. Now, if it's a dishonor for a man to have long hair, we wouldn't argue how long's too long.

16:35

It couldn't get any longer, right? And still have him be able to walk, right? Right, and so by the end of the time that Steve was at the

16:44

Bible study, he was a greeter for Grace Church with a short haircut and a handlebar mustache.

16:49

He realized as he grew. And so if you see people at church that aren't dressed the right way, if you're a godly lady and you pull another lady aside and say, this is how probably we should wear things,

17:00

I think that's appropriate. Sure, well, and again, it gets back to the other thing. I don't think anything that we as Christians wear on Sunday morning should be a distraction to others, whether it's the 17 -year -old boy or the 30 -year -old woman or whatever.

17:18

I mean, just distracting, taking away from worship is just not what we should be doing, especially not with our clothing.

17:26

I know you wanna move on, but I will say this, no co -style. Dads, if your daughter, 13 through 25 or older, comes to worship at church with you and she has something on that's inappropriate, that's all on you, friend.

17:44

That's all on you. You ought to say, you know what, honey? I'm not a prude, and there's a time and a place to dress like that, but it's probably on your honeymoon.

17:53

It is definitely not this morning. I know. All right, what do we have next, Steve? Pastor salaries.

18:00

Now, this could be the source of some contention among church members, which, again, and I've been on all three sides of this.

18:14

What do you mean all three sides? Well, I've been a layperson. I probably was on the low end of the salary spectrum at one point, and now

18:24

I feel like I'm on the high end of the salary spectrum. So, I mean,

18:29

I know what it's like to be on all sides of this issue, and I just, I don't get it. It, for me, never, ever was an issue, except for when

18:38

I was an unbeliever and thought that no clergy should be paid because I was a Mormon.

18:44

You were a moron? Yeah, a Mormon. Mormon, okay, well, you know. I might have been a moron, too, but.

18:50

Santa, Satan, you know how I conflate these things. Yes. Steve, if you are at another church, we're not talking about Bethlehem Bible Church, we're thankfully paid well here, but if you're a member of another church and you think your pastor gets paid too much, my suggestion is to pull up what a principal makes at a middle school or at a high school and see what they make.

19:11

And it's public knowledge. You can find out very quickly what that person would make. And, you know, they're in charge of people.

19:17

It's a very important position. They work a lot. They have to take their job home with them.

19:22

They have folks under them. It's similar. I know it's education. It's not spiritual, but it's still similar.

19:27

And you'll quickly find out that your pastor most likely doesn't make as much as the principal of a local high school.

19:34

And by the way, he won't have to give an account for the souls of those kids before the Lord God on Judgment Day either.

19:41

Absolutely. And so I think that pastors should live within their means.

19:46

They should live in the same neighborhoods of the folks and all that kind of thing. But I don't know.

19:53

I've been on both ends of the spectrum as well. I've been on all three sides, too. Okay, there you go. So anyway.

20:00

All right. Where's that donate button again on NoCo Radio? You can't escape it. It's everywhere on there. Steve, come on.

20:06

The elephant in the room is the salaries for disc jockeys. Radio host and co -host.

20:13

That's the real elephant in the room, isn't it? I don't know if it is or not. Did you get your NoCo 1090 this year?

20:18

Yeah, I got it all. Uh -huh, was there a zero in it? I -

20:23

Started it. Yeah, I think, yeah. I mean, we're well compensated for No Compromise Radio.

20:31

Let's skip down to number nine, role of a pastor's wife. People argue about what's the role of the pastor's wife.

20:37

I've sent my wife off to piano school to - Well, and my wife would need to go to quilting school.

20:43

Here's when - It's interesting when you hire a pastor and you just pay him.

20:50

If you thought correctly about it, you'd say to yourself, well, the pastor's wife has spiritual gifts.

20:56

She wants to help her husband, and she serves behind the scenes, and she does all kinds of things, and we basically get two for one.

21:05

Isn't that true? Well, it's true in a lot of ways, yeah. I mean, and we're not talking about, well, my wife is a secretary, and your wife is the administrator, and it's just a good old boys' club with wives and everything, but the church pays for my salary and yours, and they get

21:20

Janet's help and Kim's help for nothing. Bonus, you know, it's like a coupon.

21:26

But what people do is they say, well, what is she doing, and I don't like this, or I didn't like it that she went on vacation to this place, or what's she doing going out of town here, there, the other?

21:36

Those are some things I've heard. What gives people, I guess it's the pastor's wife, it gives them the right to say, well,

21:45

I don't like what she's doing when she's not even on the payroll. Well, and you know, not to get too no -compromise here, but I almost wanna say,

21:56

I mean, this is a step further than what you're saying, excuse me, what business is it of yours?

22:02

You know, is she your wife? Is, you know, not just is she your employer, but is she your wife?

22:08

Are you gonna give an accountability for her before the Lord? Because, you know, people just get too wrapped up in minutia, you know, can, let's look at the big things.

22:20

Is the Bible being taught? Is the pastor faithful in what he's doing? Is the wife serving? Is the pastor, you know, giving?

22:28

I, you know what would be one thing? How about this? How about a wife who doesn't, pastor's wife doesn't go to church?

22:33

Now, that would be a problem. I would have an issue with that. Right, and you know what, Steve? If anybody came to me and said, Mike, you know, we pay for your salary and all that, could you just, you know,

22:42

I really don't know, what do you do with your time? Could you tell me what you do? And I would say a lot of things.

22:49

Sure, you could ask me that question anytime. Would you like to go around with me for a day? Would you like me to tell you my typical week?

22:55

A good week, a bad week, and everything in between? Shall I wake you up in the middle of the night when I'm woken up? You know, all these things.

23:01

That's a fair question. But my wife's not on salary. And so for you to say, well, I don't like this, that, or the other,

23:08

I think if you're at a church, your pastor should say, you know, my life's an open book.

23:13

You want to ask a question about how often I work? I'll tell you, 80 hours a week. And I think

23:18

I can prove that through what comes out of the pulpit. That's the first thing that goes, right?

23:23

I get bad sermons from the pulpit. You know, the guy's not setting it. But my wife, she's my wife. So knock it off, everything you get from her is basically gratis.

23:33

Yeah, yeah, and I mean, what makes her a legitimate target? I mean, it's just nuts.

23:39

Not for Bethlehem Bible Church, I'm not asking for Janet nor Kim. But if you're at a different church, why don't you do something nice for your pastor's wife?

23:46

Why don't you give her a little gift certificate? Why don't you offer to babysit her kids? Why don't you take her down to the massage place or mascara place or masquerade ball?

23:56

I don't care what it starts with. But seriously, why don't you do something nice? Ticket or Red Robin. Pastors regularly receive things like thank you, or here's a gift, or a good job, or you know, we regularly get those.

24:08

But it's our wives who don't. And so why don't you do something nice for your pastor's wife?

24:14

And if you're thinking about doing something nice for Kim or Janet, then do something for Metta instead, or Karen, or Sunita, one of the other elders' wives.

24:22

We're not asking for ourselves, but it's a good opportunity to serve people that have served you. Well, this is a truism, and I know

24:29

I'm not the first one to say it, but a man can only serve as much, he can only do as much in ministry as his wife really permits him.

24:37

And I don't mean in the sense that she gives him authorization, but in the sense that she handles other things in life so that he's freed up and invaluable.

24:48

My wife is invaluable, and I'm sure Mike would say the same about Kim. Mike Ebenroth here with Steve Cooley.

24:53

You can write us at info at nocompromiseradio .com. If you have a topic that you'd like Steve to address, a difficult one,

25:00

Tuesday Guide. Yeah, brutal, make him hard. Jesus descended into hell. What does that mean? I'm happy to address that one.

25:07

No Compromise Radio. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Ebenroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

25:14

Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God's word through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text.

25:24

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston.

25:31

You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

25:39

The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE in staff or management.