Open Air Theology "Celebrity Pastors"

Black sheep among misfits

A misfit in the trailer park at night A misprint with the sixth sense

Been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D. My two cents never made sense

Either to me or anyone else's side of the sheep fence My ninth synth on my right side

Why you starin' at your cocked -up side of my job? Can't cop from the dotted line

Tell me what's the bottom line The bottom line is I'm not right I'm not left but this elephant won't fight

There's nothing left but the spotlight But my beard, you can find me in the moonlight Moonlight If you say what you want, move on If you say what you want, put your heart around If you say what you want, move on If you say what you want, move on I'm within the deep end

And I can't find my assigned seat to sit in My theology don't fit in Black sheep of the

Reformation sheep pen The teeth are reformed I'm just another Baptist Baptized again

The bastard child of Anabaptist Host to child of Reformation society

We don't need your education Give me a Bible and a bookshelf of dead men

Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men

Making Reformation great again If you say what you want, move on If you say what you want, put your heart around If you say what you want, move on If you say what you want, put your heart around No, you won't around me

Around me, around me, around me, around me, around me What's up, ladies and gentlemen?

Welcome to Open Air Theology. I am one of the co -hosts of this fantastic YouTube show, and my name is

Jeff. I'm also one of the pastor elders of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church in Tallahoma, Tennessee.

If you're ever in this area, come check us out. I'm going to pass it over to my homeboy,

Brayden. Yep, Brayden Patterson, pastor of Valley Baptist Church currently in southern

Idaho. Come check out the church if you live in the area. And also going to be the pastor of Grace Bible Church here soon, coming

December. I've been called there to pastor the Grace Bible Church in Moor Park.

And so if you live in that area, it'd be a great blessing to see you. And yeah, co -host of Open Air Theology, great blessing to be able to be on a show with this brother as well as Tom.

We'll talk about him. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we got rid of that. Get under his mouth.

He got home. We don't play. We don't play. You know what I'm saying? All that gray, like he was just, he was cramping our style.

He's he's making us he's making us feel old and so we you know, we just was like no

Have a YouTube channel called a reformed ex -mormon, but I won't pass it to Tom because Tom's not here tonight

Yeah, well, he might be here in about 30 minutes. He might be he better be You know, he's old.

He's decrepit and he's he brittle so, you know, it is what it is Nap, yeah, he was out hanging out with his besties, you know

And and we are the the resties. Okay, we're not as besties. Okay, we're just the other guys okay, the other guys so and you know top liver is

Yeah, it's chopped liver top liver. Yeah, how was your Lord's Day? I was a blessing.

It was a good day today. We had I Was preached I was able to preach on Galatians chapter 3 verses 24 to 29.

It was a real great blessing just to see the what was one of the main purposes of the

Mosaic law, which a lot of people overlook and that was To bring about the Christ. And so you have

Judy is twisting that to say This is the how you obtain salvation or this is how you become a

Christian and Paul saying no You're extending the law beyond its time period and you're ruining the whole purpose of what the law was for which was to bring about the

Christ and so I was a real great blessing to do that Matt slick and a friend of mine was able to come and Worship with us today here at Valley Baptist Church.

That was really really nice and we were able to go and get some Late lunch early dinner after and just hang out in fellowship with one another.

So it was good. How about yours? How was your Lord's Day? Man was fantastic was they we had a we had a baptism today and those are always good

Lord's Days because we usually have extra people coming to witness this a wonderful picture of the gospel and so it was just fantastic man, and then we had some other unexpected visitors and you know, the

There's just an emotional day like in a good sense, right? So we had our annual our biannual business meeting.

So we have two a year and then we had a lot of stuff to go over and man, it was just Everyone is just in one accord and it's just really good to see that because I mean

You know, you probably witnessed business meetings going wrong, right? So this is how you have, you know second

Baptist third Baptist and all these other church split is on kind of business meetings, but yeah, everybody, you know on the same page and you know, and just I Don't know man.

It was fantastic. It was it was a really good Lord's Day. I felt like the the message went well It was received.

Well, I kept you know People kept coming up to me talking about how the message blessed them which was that's always a blessing to me, man

There's nothing I mean like listen if your pastor's message Touches you tell them

Tell him because he's labored all week over that message and there's nothing I mean, there's nothing like receiving

Those words and then giving them to God because God is has spoken through you, right?

so You might not want to blow up his head. But listen, he is he is laboring over your soul

He's working hard to articulate. Well The message of Scripture and if it's if he's that message touches you let him know but a question

So at our church, we have about 40 ,000 people. It's all taped off. So people can't come talk to me

How are they to come to me if I'm super famous? Well, you know, that's because you're a superstar

I don't have people at my church If you have so many people or you have a

Taped off section where people can't come talk to you, right? They want to come talk with the pastor Oh, what if they can't even come talk to you?

And what does that look like? What kind of pastors are those? You know, there's there's several kinds like I've experienced several kinds of pastors, right?

So I you know, like like you see the pastors that that sit on Thrones All right, like literally thrones on the stage so they don't

Look, so I want to talk about pastors that don't sit among the congregation first So you have the the throne that's on the stage right over by the pulpit that the pastor sits and awkwardly

The congregation the pastor are looking at each other during the worship Then you have a you know, the kind to where you got like this this black

Backdrop on the stage and then when it's time for the preaching the pastor comes out from behind the backdrop

Mm -hmm, right Or, you know like I've seen him where they like fly in with like a yeah, yeah, that's my next thing

That's that's what it's pretty cool. Like people spider -man. You know, I mean this Yeah, yeah, like if I could get the

That's what I'm saying, dude Can you do something about that? Whoever's listening to me on my phone, right?

Get some literal web coming out of my wrist so I can fly I want to I want to out celebrity the celebrities, you know,

I'm saying Yeah, so today's topic that we're talking about is celebrity pastors.

And so Jeff Tom and I we've been just talking about some some things that we

We think there's a there's a pretty big issue within Christianity today and that's the idolization of pastors and every denomination every group of Christians have this issue

I think going on within their camp every denomination every camp has these kind of issues and that is pastors that are elevated Above that place that your local pastor is at Jeff I'll turn it off to you.

What if what if somebody in your church says my favorite pastor is John MacArthur I Will say

Well, I've had this happen before Yeah, I was like this John MacArthur gonna have to give an account over your soul when he dies.

Yeah How about instead of? Looking to a pastor that's not gonna have to give an account over your soul look to the pastor

That's gonna have to give an account over your soul. Amen. How about giving that guy a chance? How about giving the one that labors over you and word and prayer a chance?

right Am I out of bounds now, is there anything wrong? We're listening to MacArthur or you know,

I'll name it right we can go through Paul Washer isn't a pastor but but he is

Highly idolized right and in Paul Washer Will tell you himself

Don't don't do that I think Paul wants her out of out of all out of all of them in my opinion would probably be the one that said

Stop it Yeah, what did he tell Michael Schultz just me are just flesh.

Yep remember the first conference Michael says hey the he said something about the

The main guys here or something like that speaking of Paul Washer and Paul Washer just looks at me says just flash

Just a humble deed Humble deed and I would say most of these guys

Hopefully hopefully you would kind of echo that that same thing, right? We're we're not to put one another on pedestals, right?

What? You're not to be out of reach Mm -hmm, especially in your own church

Absolutely, and and I definitely have a problem with with you know, if people in my congregation

They're list again. There's nothing wrong with people my congregation listening to other

Church leaders pastors so on and so forth, but they might just might want to Put the pastor who's having who's laboring over their soul and would have to one day give an account of them above those who they're

Listening to you. Yeah, and there's different. There's absolutely there's different so John MacArthur when he prepares a sermon, he's not thinking of you

Jeff and he's not thinking of me. He's You did make a

Bible for you when he looks at your butt at the Bible Hey, listen, I was walking. I was at the last g3 and I was walking out of the

So I hadn't met him in person stuff like that and was in his office and I was walking out of the elevator and John MacArthur Josh Weiss and one of the guys from Ligonier.

We're getting into the elevator and John MacArthur said hey Bible guy Real recognizes real

You and you and the dis be No, but seriously

John MacArthur is not thinking of you Jeff. He's not thinking of me He's thinking about his church that he's tending and feeding through the preaching of the word, right?

He's he's there being a pastor for the people there when I am writing a sermon when

I am delivering a text when I am praying on behalf of preaching God's Word and Preparing messages.

I'm thinking of the people I'm going to be presenting it to the people that I care for the people that I'm tending over It's not the not the person that might see it on YouTube.

Not the person that might hear it on Facebook I'm thinking of the church that's before me and so It's it there's two different categories.

I think of celebrity pastors. There is idolization that takes place in every Group in every camp whether you are charismatic whether you're a cessationist whether you are

Amillennial pre -millennial you're going to have different celebrity or idolizations of people of especially pastors in those areas, but also

One thing that we we have made fun of that. I would not group John MacArthur and Paul Washer and other big names

Vodie Bacchum Other big names like that. I would not group them into some of the celebrity pastors that are doing the things like Spider -manning down to the to the stage holding on to a rope being

That's two separate types of things going on for sure for sure for sure. Yeah. Yeah What's taking place in the reform camp?

versus the even jellyfish Two different things two different rights like you're talking

Leveling up ten knots is right, you know the way that they treat their pastors and stuff like that Yeah Again I was a part of You know,

I mostly I might not know this but I was originally ordained in the context of the assemblies of God churches of God So on and so forth

And there was a time where I could have saw a future in that In that right like there was a time whenever I was involved with my coach and you

Me having to speak multiple times a day, you know going to different locations and I was and I was game for it

Yeah, you know 12 years ago. I was like, okay sign me up. I do it and it whatever the

Lord wants me to do And that's not what the Lord Wants anybody to do right if your church is getting so big to where you have to have multiple services

How about plan a church? I'm oh, that's right more churches. That's that's what we see in the book of Acts That's right

Instead of planning Churches in different locations and you going to each different location or you had been put up on some kind of a video stream

We filter through so on and so forth about planting a church And and raising up other men

Teaching them how to preach Sending them off Be the sheep because it's not about one man.

Mm -hmm What would be what would be the pros of doing something like that Jeff what would be the pros of having

Fellowships instead of thousands and numbers of having fellowships of two to three hundred people maybe even smaller

Maybe a little bit bigger but smaller fellowships versus bigger larger ones

First the first thing that jumps off of me is intimacy with with your congregation like knowing who it is that you're talking to you, right?

Imagine knowing someone so well, you don't have if something's wrong. You don't have to say hey

How are you doing? Like you can see it on them or you know their lives so well where you've been

You know, maybe like with our church We have a a group like it's like a group chat through discord when we have prayer requests.

We have praises We have a you know different announcements Man's group women's group like we have different things to where we are

We're actively in each other's life every day, even if it's just by messages right, so if somebody goes to a

Store or whatever and ends up witnessing to someone they text us the name of that person red does this quite often?

He's on here You know and he texts the group and lets us know what's going on when we see him

We can ask about that encounter right because we are Even if sometimes we're having to do life

On social media, we're still doing a life and never whenever we connect in real life We're able to have these conversations.

So it so that I would say the most important thing about it is knowing one another There's no way to know who

Like earlier you was talking about when John McArthur prepares this message. He's thinking about his congregation I would say yes and no.

Yes, and no, I agree. Yep Because he's unable to fully know everyone in his congregation because the church is so big and I'm not trying to rain down on Jmack, right, but but but but in one sense, it's true

Like there's no way that he can fully know everyone the way that I know the people in my congregation, right?

Yeah the way I would look at it too is if you look at the early church in Paul's exhortation to Timothy or even in the churches in general like there's a certain level of Intimacy that was expected amongst the fellowship there because they were smaller

They were smaller in numbers rather than larger and disconnected from one another they were they were involved with each other's lives

And I unfortunately you don't see that that often in big churches, right How How can a pastor?

Give an account for somebody's soul that he never talks to on a regular basis. Yeah. Yeah Hey, let's say

I'm gonna give you a question. So let's say you've passed away You you're standing before God and you're given and God mentions a name that you have to give an account for you

Can you say hey, I hope when I say who the person wasn't in my church because that would be bad another

Another good example too is is let's say if somebody's in our church and they pass away and they never talked to me am

I able to give a message of assurance to the family that this person was actually saved when I've never even talked to them about the gospel and seen if They actually had faith and what was being preached from the pulpit

There's there's a lot of a lot of unfortunate what

I Think this I don't know because I don't want to I don't want to be super like with just John Matt John John MacArthur, I was trying to say

Johnny. Well, he is the most known so we're not really raining down on John. No he is the most known and and And probably just like you, you know,

I've listened to a lot of Johnny man. Greatly bless me. Yep, great. Great bless great but How yeah, how can you give an account for somebody's soul

When when they're I I just I'm thinking back when I was first saved don't hold this against me audience I use when

I first was saved. I was attending a Calvary Chapel. I Know ah, ooh, it hurts still today.

I don't think I was really saved right then I was but I remember going and listening to this guy

That I will I will rain down on this guy. This guy. His name was Pastor Bob. I think it's Bob Caldwell if I remember, right

Pastor Bob I remember after one message It was one of the earliest Sundays and I was going through a lot with LDS stuff and I wanted to talk with him after the service because I noticed that in the past that they would do a prayer time after The service for anybody needing prayer to come up and talk to him and I really like that I would do that at our own church to hey if you need prayer come talk to me right now, right?

I Remember sitting there with my at the time girlfriend Emily, but now my wife Emily We were sitting there and I wanted to go talk to him

He sat there for like 30 minutes and there was still a line of people and we just had to leave It was just I can't even get prayer from the pastor the guy that just preached a message because of how many people are going

To him for prayer. That was kind of obnoxious and I even remember speaking of celebrity pastors this gentleman the last time

I ever turned Attended his his church was the last day Preached at the church and that was because he got up on an

Easter Sunday and Gave a rundown of all the stuff he had done in ministry and didn't measure mentioned the resurrection of Christ one time

Didn't talk about it on Easter Sunday And I just was like this this is wrong and I remember leaving there so disappointed and upset with it

I I stopped going to Calvary chapels after that because of how frustrated it was how frustrating that was that experience was

Yeah, I stopped attending the Assemblies of God churches whenever I was in a service and I said

Man, I feel like I should have received that what not what I say I said, I feel like I should have paid a cover charge to get in here

Mm -hmm, and then about 10 minutes later, they passed the plate and I was like, oh here it is. There it is But I've literally been in there where they said lock the doors y 'all didn't give enough

Hostage I love it But something else that you know, like like how could

Is it possible to stop the train? So that's a question. I want to ask is it possible to Stop this train this this train of celebrity pastors.

Like is it possible to put an end to it? What do you think? I Think it starts at the individual level first, not even just the celebrity pastor individual

But you as as a person that's watching or attending it I the reason I say that is I won't say the person's name online

But I remember being at a certain place Seeing this very well -known person sit in a room and was extremely rude to everyone in that room yet Everybody was still fanboying over him and loving everything that he had to do even though the guy was being a jerk

And instead of just saying this guy's being a jerk. I'm walking out of here This guy's the hero that I want to be around so I'm gonna go be around and being a jerk no matter what it was

Just an idolization that was coming from the core of them and it was sinful what that guy was doing

But it was also sinful for that person to continue to participate and still hide idolize this guy put him on a whole different pedestal

That no one should be elevated to in my opinion And so I would say that the first thing is is that people have to recognize that they are fanboying over someone

This man is still a man stop Stop placing an over amount of is it called faith?

Is it called expectation? I don't know but stop holding this guy in This glorious onerous position that you just have to be around him no matter what that that that's a idolization on your part

So stop it yeah, and I would say like the Hmm how do

I say this without pissing everybody off? Every time

Theology, right? It's our fault these guys are in the position that they are now because of us

Like right so we leave our secular lives and become Christians, right?

So in our secular lives those that we idolize would be movie stars raps, you know, that's

You're saying this to someone who Who loves a good freestyle, right? Yeah, you know, you know

And so we take that that general Allah Idolizations that can we say that you don't know what

I mean? Yeah, and we apply it into the Christian circle right, and so It's constantly like we're trying to make goading cows to dance around Yeah, and so it's our fault

We're constantly looking for someone to look up to and my dear friends. How about those in your church?

Mmm, how about? Finding someone in your church to mentor you. How about looking to your pastor, right?

someone hopefully you go to a church where you don't have to That you can walk up to your pastor shake his hand hug his neck and and have a real conversation

Yeah, I was gonna say that so like It's almost so imagine that that idolization of a music star or whatever that you said rap

So I'm just thinking of Eminem off the top of my head Could you ever imagine sitting down with Eminem and smoking a cigar or going and hanging out just chilling?

I can't like there's like that that burden of this guy is just in Social interactions.

He's just not going to be able to hang around with me, right? That should not exist with your pastor your pastor

Let me say this very clearly if you want to go and hang out with men's group You should be able to go and smoke a cigar with your pastor

You should be able to go give him a handshake. You should be able to hug him You should be able to ask him how his family's doing. There shouldn't be this expectation of oh, man.

He's he's He is hit the peak of The Christian epicenter of socializing and I just can't go and talk with him

For sure for sure. Like I feel like like for me like I don't idolize any man, so so Like a big star right now in the area that I grew up in is is

Jellyroe. I'm sure you've heard of So me and Jellyroe we kind of grew up in the same circles and actually when

I stopped Wrapping like, you know, it's Sam Brad knows

Jellyroe personally also so when I stopped wrapping Jellyroe, that's when Jellyroe started It's when he got out of jail and start rapping so I had to stop rapping and when getting anywhere and and focus on a career in roofing and and So like there's a good chance because we live in the same areas that I'll bump into jelly

Right and I you know I could I could bump into jelly sit down and have a cigarette with them and would not fanboy out

Like I'm not the type that fanboys over people you know because I like that's never been who

I am who I was or whatever and so so I feel like Like that's something that I can do

But I don't Again so Martin Luther like if we want to be honest

Martin Luther is is the fanboy of the Reformers I mean it is the golden cowl of the

Reformation Excuse me is the golden cowl of the Reformation like let's face it, right? Yeah, all the

Reformers dance around this guy Yeah, and and and and I think even that's wrong

Like I think you know I love my Lutheran brothers, but out of all the people in there that came out of the

Reformation like those guys Again but I love them And that's not to say like you can't show gratitude and Thanksgiving That's that's blessing you.

It's just that if you put them above that of being a man. Yes, that's wrong Yes, that's wrong like I think

I think of Sam Waldron right Sam Waldron is my hero in the faith That's a guy that I enjoy listening

Just so thoroughly to and Jeff and I we were just talking about just the this last conference with open -air theology

Just what a blessing it was to be able to meet this guy I mean just the humility that he had and the safeguards that were in place and Just the way that he was conducting himself with the way he conducted himself

Yes, I mean it's something to actually learn from that's right, that's absolutely right

I I love listening to him but Sam Waldron is

Still a man like you can't put him in this this position of more glorious than any other man

It's still he's a man. He's still a sinner. He's still been saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone

Yeah Hey Brian, I was wondering what you think about this question right here. I have an answer but In the sense of elders preaching or like what what

I guess maybe do you think sure from what I'm taking? And please elaborate, but what

I'm getting from this you're saying should Should there be a different else should the elders take turns in the pulpit by weekly

And so that's how I'm interpreting what are you saying Bi -weekly like different men that like yeah, like yeah, so the different so if you have three elders it are

Let's just even it out for elders. Each one speaks once a month so on and so forth

I I I don't think there's necessarily an issue with that I think there's one that ends up messing with that because then you're hearing four different voices

From the pulpit every Sunday And it really affects the teaching because if one person I'm telling you if you go to one elder to another elder even within the same church though some of the minute conclusions that they will have while exegeting a text will be different from one another to another and the way that they're applying it might

Be a little bit different to another And that I'm just saying that in general if you have ever tried to preach alongside

Somebody where you preach this chapter than you preach this chapter you guys are gonna have conflicting Understandings or at least the presentations going to be slightly different so I would say

No, but that doesn't exclude the plurality of elders and having an elder teach from time to time

I don't think there's but I do think one main lead pastor or lead teaching elder is the way to go yeah, that's my opinion the the sheep need to be led by a

Constant one voice when it comes to the preaching and teaching however other elders or gifted man should

Do it and should preach from the pulpit and I would also say I don't think it should be from the exposition

So if your pastor is pretty like I'm preaching through John right now If if pastor cowl wants to speak he's not going to speak from John he's going to Bring a text that he's been mowing over so on and so forth, right?

It would be because my brain like I have been saturating myself in John pastor cowl does not have the time to saturate

Yeah himself in John the way that I have in order to come up with the same interpretation And so it would be much easier for him to to find something that he's been

Maybe in his study that he's been that he's been studying over the last six months or something like that to bring forth

Yeah, yeah, that's good Yeah there, and I mean situations depend right on different things so like right now at the

Valley Baptist I'm getting ready to go to grace Bible Church, and so my elder and I we have said that we're gonna

We're gonna slowly transition to him taking over preaching through the book of Galatians so right now

I'm in Galatians 3 just finished chapter 3 and so in this Transitionary period for a month and a half we're gonna start preaching every other

Sunday through that same book But I'm sure we're going to run into what you're talking about Jeff. Is that there there is if a pastor

Even if it's a Bible study if you're if you're having somebody teach a Bible study It's it's difficult to get on that exact same page that that was talked about the week prior

Or where the the person the week prior was leading towards So yeah, is there any other questions we can talk about right now or back to celebrity pastors, let's get back to the celebrities

Well So I think there's also a danger to you This is something that I think we we want to discuss and something that maybe we'll discuss in greater length undoubtedly in a future show

Is there a danger Jeff to pastors becoming circuit preachers?

Elaborate a little bit is It wrong for a pastor that is the pastor of a local body

To spend more time outside of his church preaching at other churches than being in his own pulpit with his own people no, never there's never a

There's never a time for anything like that like yeah So you're saying no not a good thing.

No, it's not a good thing because a pastor pastors is Latin for Shepherd right and Shepherd is to tennis flock and there was time so when a shepherd would be out in the field that he would bring us his his sheet back to to a main sheet pan like kind of what you see taking place in John chapter 10 and Then he would and for the most part there would either be

I hired him there or the pastor or the shepherd himself but I would hire someone to watch over a sheet or It could be

To where he's he's passing on the secret trade of being a shepherd to someone else and he would have

This person to watch over his sheep while he went and spent time Maybe resting or something like that because but for the most part that that shepherd

Spent most of the time with the sheep. It was a lonely life

In one sense our life rewarding But it was a tough life

Yeah, yeah So what what would be some of the dangers that could befall a pastor that which again?

I don't think it's a good idea to call him a pastor because if you're not Pastoring sheep and you're just going and speaking at other churches you kind of validate the title

What are some of the dangers that could happen with the pastors that that has seen go do so One for one the sheep won't know his voice

Hmm Right. I mean, that's just clear application from the text.

The sheep won't know his voice Danine just made an absolute great point that I just want to read it. You might want to put this one on the screen

Danine This one. Yep When did he lack accountability if he wanders outside of his own church the pastor?

Which are accountable to his church and if the pastor has gone three out of the four weeks of every month man

But that's kind of what I was saying like it is they won't recognize his voice it is

If you don't know your pastor How can you keep them accountable? That's right

But my my life, you know, like this might sound weird to a lot of people but I Have guards set up in my life to keep me accountable

Because the biggest screw -up I know Is not Brayden Yes, ah

Now I'm the chief of sinners and mess -ups And so I have to I have to put guards in my life, right?

Like so the reason why did I do evangelism in my neighborhood? It's a lot so that I don't drive around my neighborhood and slip off everyone that cuts me off Let me just be honest right because because I'm Like I don't know not yeah,

I'm known to get out the car and jack jack somebody up. I'm a Christian now Christian That guy anymore.

I mean, I can't I can't do that guy anymore But you're now known as the guy that goes stands on 8th

Street preaching the gospel or whatever Street you're on And so if you go and flip people off in your own town, I'm gonna say hey, that's the guy that preaches on 8th

Street That's that's three preacher out with me. I don't make no sense Yeah, and so and so I I street

I do all my ministry is done in my own listen literally my own neighborhood Why because it keeps me accountable

So when I'm out in public, it keeps me from doing something stupid. I don't want to ruin my witness

I can't have a bad moment Right When it comes to my wife like if my wife wants to see my phone,

I give her my phone I'm not keeping anything timer. If my elder wants to see my phone. I'll give him my phone

I read the Bible. I have creeds and confessions. I'm constantly surrounding myself With things that keeps me from falling into error, that's right.

What about What about and I'll speak.

Oh man There is something to be said. I work as a firefighter

There's times where I'll be spending two three four nights away from my family in a row back to back to back and that is

Not good for any man any woman to be away from their family for that many days in a row. What about The issues that can arise with being away not even just accountability within your church.

What about accountability within your family? How can a husband properly love his wife if he's gone for a week at a time weeks at a time?

How can a pastor or a father adequately take care of his children when they're he's not there at the house with his children,

I Don't know. Yeah, I think I think there's I think there is circumstances, right?

Because some jobs do like like your job sure your job requires long time away

Yeah, but these long times away that you like your job

You're doing what it takes to provide for your family, right? I'm talking about the pastor the pastor that goes

Yeah, so that's what I'm going to because I want to I want to disconnect it from people What you know that have you know, like a firefighter's job truck driver so on and so forth

So you get you got people who are having them work these jobs to get away. All right, so a pastor

His stable job is the pastor. Yeah the church. All right, so So if your vocation is to a local church your vocation isn't to go speak at 50 conferences a year

Right, and so that's not what's doing it for you Hold on one second. What's up?

I Cannot deal with it right now. I'm podcasting. Is there a spider? Is that what I heard? Yeah Go be a dad

I'm gonna let that thing get going. I don't mess with spiders. I don't mess with snakes. I don't mess with spiders, okay

Father's being good And not scaredy cats. Yeah. Well if I go after I'm either bringing this

I'm bringing my shotgun I keep right here I Got a slugs in Okay, we're gonna have a roof leak

Go keep deal with it. I'll do I'll keep it That's awesome

Go get it. Yeah, I there's something to be said when you're in the military or your fireman or your police officer whatever the example is

My wife just said I should tell everybody how I killed a spider the other day. I There was a black widow and I got afraid as one normally should since the fall

Right with those things are not something to mess around with and so I got a bug spray out thinking that this might kill it

It was behind this like box. I couldn't get to it So I just sprayed it and sprayed it and sprayed it and sprayed it and sprayed it more and more and more in the bug

Spray did not kill it But it annoyed it enough to have it come out to then where I went and grabbed a flame

Torch, and I torched the thing to death. It was awesome. Dude. That's cool I'm a man

Where's Tom Oh Man anyway,

I was going on with there's a difference between of being in the military being in the police officer being a firefighter being an

EMS being a Whatever the example is where you're providing for your family, right? There's a there's a there's a need to provide for your family

You're willing to make that sacrament sacrifice, but those things are still challenging when you're away from your family, right?

and so if a pastor is is choosing to go and and Choosing to be away from his family choosing to be away from the flock and this isn't a rare occasion

This is a continual basis every single month. He's going out every single month. He's gone away from the pulpit

There's probably some issues there. There's some issues where this person's probably

Wanting to pet their own ego. They're probably driven by pride They want people to hear their voice and they might be qualifying for what

Jeff and I are talking about tonight and that is celebrity pastors and where I'm going with all this is that recently and this is going to be a

Conversation that we have in the near future when more information comes to light, but somebody like Steve Lawson I think that that's what you see in this situation is

Unfortunately Steve Lawson Micah Wilder is an LDS person. That's pretty well known that that has been in drench and it just terrible sexual immorality and He was not a part of a local body

Steve Lawson was a pastor of a church. But if you look at his history of being there, he's gone a lot

He's gone a lot. So there's a lack of accountability there So if I can go back and touch on before I do that, how cool is that right?

You don't get that on any of the podcast All right back to the thing yeah

What's talking about earlier Talking about having different pastors within the pulpit and that's how it was at Steve's Lawson's Church So he would preach there maybe once a month and so you're talking because I listened to I Listened to Trinity Church that church and so they have a different person within the pulpit

Sometimes it's it's really hard to see the same person twice Within a short amount of time, but you know once a month

Steve Lawson would be a the local congregation And would speak and I can remember one time.

He was like, I'm not mistaken He said he said he had he spoke 15 places in one week like Like what is that?

That's crazy Yeah, it's crazy and I'm gonna tell you that doesn't sound right. That doesn't sound right

It doesn't sound right and I can tell you this one so I preached once today And I gave it everything that was in me and listen,

I had to take a caffeine pill in order to do this And I went bowling yesterday and let me tell you something my hips are killing me good lord, that's a young man sport

Sitting down just a second ago. I wanted to scream. I didn't want y 'all to think I was a sissy. Listen Jeff went bowling preached and a business meeting and he's still on here to talk to you guys.

Where's Tom at take a time at? Taking it. Oh, I was hanging out with my besties

Jackling My wife my wife answered a question from Sam yeah, we so my kiddos and my wife missed the last two conferences in February and Hopefully here in this hopefully soon they'll be able to start coming to Let this is a good plug right here right now

If you haven't already Get your tickets to the open -air theology conference this coming year 2025,

Tullahoma, Tennessee. It's going down Sanctuary down for real Sanctification baby sanctification that is what the topic is

We've titled it war because we should be making war with our flesh War against our flesh that we want to become more and more like Christ and and more and more mortified the sin

That's within us. And so if you haven't bought those tickets yet Go and buy them open -air theology conference dot org

Go get the tickets don't know How is it that God takes us from A to B from from Adam the man of dust

To Christ the man of heaven. Well, how does he do that Jeff? Well, you have to come see

Yeah, I come you gotta come and then um, I'm gonna be talking on This sanctification and sovereignty so talking about how

God is our potter shaping us his Vessels and why it's such a glorious thing to be shaped into the image of Christ Is what my topics on if you want to know more?

2025 Tullahoma, Tennessee go get your tickets right now. We also have Yeah, that's right and guess what listen to this

I Hope you come to that because that conference is not a celebrity pastor conference

That's a conference that we expect the speakers To go and shake your hand hug your neck and go and smoke cigars afterwards if they would like to smoke cigars

They don't have to smoke a cigar, but they'd be a lot of smoke a cigar. They're sissy Yeah, that's right

Let's just be honest if you don't smoke a cigar, I don't know if you're getting invited Yeah And and like what like Brad just pointed out it is it's a really good conference.

I mean, I mean it's you know Like one of the main guys running it is as a trailer.

It's from the trailer park. So, you know, it's nothing fancy If you're in a group of people there at that conference and you're talking with one another and one of the speakers is it in Your group they're about to be that's we want it to be

Intimate where there's fellowship and encouragement in the Lord and that's what you should be expecting

When you come to the open -air theology conference and this year again is on the topic of war

I'm gonna screen share real fast so we can present that real fast and The theology listen the

Funniness that you you see here on this is only amplified there at the conference

So, please come join us. So this is just me zooming in on this. We got

Greg Moore being the host introducing He was gonna be our token

Presbyterian, but then we got another press piece. Yeah, we got Ryan Denton I guess he's not the only press be anymore.

Now. We got Jeremiah doing the debate good old brother the apologetic dog We got

Michael Schultz. We would have added all his titles on to here, but there's not enough

There's not enough room to say all the titles of Michael Schultz. We got our resident dis be everybody loves

Andrew. It's kind of like You that? What is it Raymond? sure

I Say it's kind of like the like the kid that got picked on in school how you kind of have empathy towards him

That's Andrew Austin Keillor, he's the holy no one of the funniest guys one of the most funny satire things

I've seen online Keith Foskey again a great brother in Christ. It's so much to love about him

Marlon Wilson Oh, hey, by the way, I'm doing a debate on Marlon Wilson's YouTube channel this

Saturday Listen, all right, I'll get done talking about this and I'll come back to that Marlon has a great

YouTube channel with debates Ryan Denton that Presbyterian Sam Waldron again great Coffee.

Oh, I skipped Kofi. I'm sorry Kofi. It's because I can't pronounce your last name. I was avoiding it I'm sorry,

Kofi. I apologize to you. I love you brother. Yes, and then we got Claude Ramsey the the passion preacher of the modern century

Hensworth Jonas is really excited to hear him preach in person and then we have grandpa

Tom Shepard gangster to Jeff Rice and the ex -Mormon Brayton and on that I'll hit stop sharing also, but seriously debate go watch the

Do our infants born with a sin nature I'm taking the positive born and with Adam as their

Federal head then yes Absolutely, they are born sinners Can die.

Yeah If the wages of sin is death and a baby can die then therefore the babies are born with the same nature has to be

How else do you get around that? Yeah, if they're not born with a sin nature then but infants don't die

Every culture you go to doesn't matter if you're in America Africa or Asia You have a watch on that kid's gonna try to grab it and take it off your wrist.

Why because they're sinners from birth Vipers and a diaper they need to be born again All right.

That's my plug. So who's your debate with? It's with a gentleman named

Joshua Rodriguez, he's a Church of Christ member. So we pray in for him And just be praying that I would perform to God's glory and accurately represent the text so they're actually baiting something that's not about baptism

Apparently I was watching a little bit. Yeah, I don't want to go into it too much I'm still trying to feed it all play it all out.

So please please listen Root for your boy. Are you gonna watch it?

I'm gonna watch. Yeah As you come to handle somebody I got you.

No, thanks, dude. Appreciate you. I got my scissors It's it they're kind of big for my hands

So so the difference Everything can people I've never been to some of these big conferences that you've been to Jeff Are people able to go and talk to all their speakers at these big conferences?

So so like if you remember James White do they so James White is always always makes himself available

Right, and so that's something unique about Dr. White and and I'll give him credit for that And he's never never not once.

He's never once made me feel Less than you know saying and so I want to give credit to that now

He might have made someone else feel that way, but he didn't make me feel that way So, yeah, so dr.

White usually always has a booth to where people can come by and meet him and talk with them

And there's others that that does so to Bodie Bauckham Usually has a couple of guys there would boost and he'll go there and stand

But the deal is is that the line like the line to get to him?

Listen, I'm not waiting in the line I'm just I'm first that's that's just me like I'm not

You're so you just cut the line is that what you're saying? Well, I do a dr. White because they recognize real real recognize real

But but but like dr. White was pointing out Steve Lawson stayed in in the green room and listen

I'm not trying to dog on Steve Lawson We're just we're just telling the truth here and you know, like if Here, let me say something good about Lawson before I say before I carry on with that.

I don't got to do that Just go ahead I'm just saying like the man hit

His ability to teach people how to preach a second to none So if you if you want to be a good preacher, he had good material.

I don't know if they're gonna take it down But With hangout and what's called a green room like a but not really a green room

But just like a place for speakers and stuff like it. So he never went out and Fellowship with anyone that was there

Now, maybe he did when it was much smaller, but the last conference that they had I believe it was like 10 ,000 plus people

And I did a lot of handshaking hugging necks taking pictures and I'm not you know, I'm just I was just the

Bible guy You know somebody that was making Bibles for people and every once in a while get into a debate with a

Presbyterian But that's just how I wrote. So When every

I know what you mean Well, what else you want to know?

I don't know. Hey, I want to ask a question so last week we did a we did a question and answer time and so And then a guy from church today mentioned that we should do more of those

And so I want to hear from everyone else. Do y 'all think we should do more question and answer shows?

Or should we stick with topics not saying we're not going to do topics

But but should we periodically throw out more question and answers? I know it takes about three four or five six seconds for y 'all to hear me talk

Michelle said sure. Sure. Absolutely. Sure Sure, that's what we get.

Sure, girl. Sure is enough, Michelle. Don't take, don't take Jeff's crap.

What's another what's another question that we have a question in here at all? I don't see it.

I'm not seeing anything else top of my head. Just mix it up. I hear you. Thank you.

Thank you Was that so hard? Was that so hard? Uh, they answered

Chris Johnson's question. Uh, so I'm gonna be moving my family and I we're gonna be moving early December Uh, don't have an exact date set yet.

But early December first one to two weeks in December We'd like to get there earlier sooner than later, of course, and so that's the plan

Hopefully on the second of December. We're in California. Hopefully don't know if that's gonna happen, but hopefully so Um, dude the church man if again,

I gotta just say if you live in southern california You need to come check out this church grace bible church.

They are beyond Just such a blessing to my family so far I'm, so excited to go in fellowship with them and just get to know them and love on them

And really tend the sheep there at grace bible church in moore park So if you live in that area Go check it out and and welcome myself and my family when we show up there in december plant yourself today

But if not plant yourself in december, we'd love to see you Uh, so I haven't reported about the church building.

Have I have I reported about the church building? No, you haven't. Let's hear it. Go send it.

What's up with the church building? So, uh, I went and had a meeting with the with with the uh the guy

Uh about the church building that we're trying to get and they did receive the deed And they're trying to get

Like they've had two people so far go over and try to get an appraisal and they were unable to figure it out because Something with with with the church are it's hard to appraise churches or stuff like or whatever and so they're trying to get one more person to go over and give an appraisal because The main thing is is that they're trying to use it for a tax write -off,

I guess and uh But he told me that no matter what comes back The price of the appraisal they're not going to look at the price to give us a price on the church

And so when it started out, I was like 95 sure we was going to get it And then we heard some bad news and I went down to zero percent, but then it went up to like 99

And now i'm like i'm like at 100 sure we're going to get it. It's just win

Right, and if you know me i'm a shaker and a mover Patience is not something that I have and I like I want it now

Give it to me. Come on. I got that. That's just how I wrote and so the lord is making me be patient right now and so but it looks like 100 sure we are going to get it it's just uh

It's just it could be a month. It could be two months Hopefully it's early. Hopefully it's we get it in time that we can have it ready for the conference if not we're gonna find a we're gonna go to a different church to have it at have the conference at but it would be it'd be really cool to be able to have it at our new church building and And uh share that with everybody

That's gonna be cool. If you get the building because you say that you're a shaker and a mover i'm just i'm We need to get a video of you using a shake weight just sitting there shake weight

Ha ha ha That's all

I can imagine when you saw a shaker and a mover I was like I bet you've got a shake weight somewhere Um, we did have a guy named clint, uh say that you we didn't answer his question from last time ask it again

I don't remember. I don't remember. What was that? Yeah, send us send us the question and we'll try to answer it.

Also, uh, laura, uh claus I think I saw laura williamson earlier is what she said

But laura said that she would like to see more q and a's tom said the guy with the beard talks too much

I think he's talking about you jeff Because you can't grow one Well, you know it is what it is we all have our problems you're a shaker

And Why isn't tom on here again, can you hang out with his besties

We're looking for a replacement Yeah, if you would like to join open air theology, we're looking for a new friend send us your resumes

Where's that question at clint? Yeah, we're waiting Send us if you guys have any questions send us some send us some uh questions

The humble baptist podcast That doesn't sound too humble I love it

No No, diddy. Yeah, you you're right. No, diddy. We don't be diddying up in here

Tom's getting out anything don't tom's being a little p diddy Tom on tom's almost home

Tom's almost home. All right. Thanks. Debbie. That sounds like a country song Your bestie

Hey, you want to talk a little bit about baptist covenant theology a little bit from uh, The stuff we talked about earlier with oh, yeah, that'd be good.

Yeah, let's do that All right Everybody open up to galatians chapter 3 to start with and i'll give you a quick rundown of my message today

And I promise it'll be quick go to galatians chapter 3 Just had so happen to have it up right here

And I wish I know if I used to get a nice bible like the nicest bible in the world like this

You can't do another plug like that Too many plugs to show joking. Yeah, these are the nicest bibles ever

Look at that. It's just that's just gorgeous man Red you didn't whip nobody.

You didn't whip nobody With your eight pound ball Big old head

So the text that I was reading from today, uh Was 24 to 29 in galatians chapter 3, but the main part that we're discussing right now, which plays out more in the text, but it says in verse 17 it says this

This is what I mean the law which came 430 years afterward does not annul the covenant previously ratified by god

So as to make the promise void First the inheritance comes by the law. It no longer comes by promise, but god gave it to abraham by a promise

Why the law then so this is the question so I I just want to pause and give a little bit of context The law here is being discussed about the mosaic law ceremonials and judicials law that were given to moses

That no one other than moses and the children of israel had to obey People in asia were not punished because they did not keep the mosaic law because they weren't given the mosaic law

People today are not punished for breaking the mosaic law because they weren't given the mosaic law

So this is talking specifically about moses and israel And it's talking about the law that came 430 years later after abraham says this in verse 19.

Why then the law Mosaic and judicial law why then the law it was added because of transgressions pause there

This means transgressions and this within the greek means sins. So how do sins take place?

Breaking of god's law breaking of god's commandments. So Meaning that this law that was given Was given because somebody they were already breaking the law of god breaking the commandments violating commandments meaning that there's commandments that are

Transcendent that were not needing to be given to them because it already existed It says until so let me read it again.

It was added because of transgressions until Until wait

Not past not before Until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made

And it was in place and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary or by the hands of a mediator in this whole chapter it it calls

First of all, it says that it was until christ in chapter Uh 3 verse 24.

It calls it our guardian in verse 25 or Who has a 25 or is it verse 26?

It calls it. I can't I don't see it right now Just looking at it, but it's it calls it a tutor a guardian A steward and it equates it to the jail a jail something that's being locked up the law of god that mosaic law was given because of Transgressions the people of israel were being influenced by pagan religion by outsiders

They were sinful within they were a dying diseased nation that god had to protect because why?

That was the the line that christ was to come and so the mosaic law according to hebrews chapter 8 right the mosaic covenant ceases because it was made obsolete because the

Covenant that christ enacted a better covenant and enacted on better promises but thinking on this

Matthew chapter 5. Is there anything that you want to say on galatians chapter 3 before we go to matthew 5 jeff?

No, i'm i'm just i'm learning. I talk too much. I'm just gonna i'm just gonna you're being

Just podcast you're being humble right now I'm being humble like manly about this podcast.

We're proud of our humility. Okay We're proud of our humility be showered by my my my teaching jeff

All right Yeah, so good question. Jeff is the mosaic law tied to circumcision.

Yes And no, so the circumcision came about through the abrahamic covenant However, the judaizers according to acts chapter 15

It was saying that they were trying to place upon the the people's necks a yoke of slavery that no one could bear

Yes You're trying to be humble there the abrahamic covenant produced a nation the mosaic covenant

Protected a nation kept a nation helped the nation enter the land. And so those that circumcision still existed within it

It was just this added additional law that was given to it that didn't invalidate the promise. Go ahead. Jeff Yeah, I would just say before the mosaic law you could separate it but once the mosaic law came you can no longer separate it because each of the

The covenant of works are an administration of the one covenant of works speaking of the endemic

So once The covenants of works started to be in play

You can no longer separate like you like once the davidic covenant came you can't separate

Any of any of the previous covenants from the davidic covenant in the same way dealing with circumcision

Yep boom And and that so the judaizers so the one of the things that the judaizers were doing is they were saying you see this law, so According to paul's argument.

They're undermining the teachings of the apostles. So Whatever they're doing is undermining the teaching of the apostles and what they were saying is that you have to be

Circumcised in order to be a christian and you have to obey the law of moses and according to paul in that text is that They are not only

Utilizing the law outside of its intended purpose, which was never to make someone saved Right.

It never was to make them righteous before god because we can't be righteous before god on our own behalf on our own doing

And so they were they were changing the purpose of what it was meant for And then they were also extending it beyond its time limit that it was meant to be in And that was until christ they were pulling something that was they were they were

Taking the time that it was allotted for and they were stretching it out to a people that it was never designed for And that was the churches of galatia.

This mostly gentile people um Read uh, or how can okay clint said this how can you how can you not separate it?

Aren't those covenants contrasted in galatians? Jeff I think that's a question towards you

I don't i'm not understanding the question. I'm over here trying to Can you

I don't understand the question. I think Can you not separate it? I think he's saying

Correct me if i'm wrong I think he's saying that there's two covenants that are talked about in the book of galatians here in chapter three

That's the abrahamic covenant and the mosaic covenant and it's almost like there's two different covenants.

Okay, so so Okay, so so so sadia before moses before the mosaic covenant came all you had so the main covenant to To the hebrews was the abrahamic covenant the the text tells us that The law, which is moses was added to the abrahamic

And once the abraham the mo the moses is added to the abrahamic. You cannot separate it right, so But if you read it it speaks about that, but it doesn't nullify the promise the promise

Is that promise of a future covenant of grace, which is the new covenant, right?

And so that would bless the nations to see that would bless the nations. Yeah, but as far as it being a covenant once another covenant is

Once another covenant of works is linked to another you can't separate the two

Right, you couldn't be in so after the days of moses when moses enacted a new that that covenant

It wasn't like you could just be in the abrahamic covenant and not in the mosaic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah 100 100

Yep um Yeah, I think that but were they different distinct covenants?

Yes, because the mosaic Didn't start in genesis 15. It started. Yeah. Yeah. So if you look at it like this, so so in x 19

Yeah, so in In genesis 3 15 a promise is given of a seed that would come

All right. We see that We see that seed passing through abraham.

So through abraham the seed is given a nation Yeah, right

Through moses. It's given a law through david. It's given a king. That's right and then once these

Covenants of Conditional covenants. Let's say so so a covenant of works is a covenant.

That's conditional you do this i'll do that It's a conditional covenant. And so once a conditional covenant is added to a previous covenant.

You cannot Separate the previous covenant from that from that edition and that's what that's what we're trying to say

Yeah, I I don't know exactly what uh, so clinton said this so it's not the actual covenants or clint

Sorry, so it's not the actual covenants being contrasted but just using the abrahamic to point to the promise uh, just the language promising, uh to bless the nations through christ or until christ is what he said until the promise um

One thing that is important to note that as a as a 1689 federalist is that we're saying that anybody that that was saved in the old testament was saved

That promise they were looking towards christ That's what galatians 3 even says it says that he would he preached the gospel beforehand

He believed I would argue I would argue In order for anyone to be saved past present future.

They were saved by the work of jesus christ That's right by faith and what he would do in order for abraham to be saved

He had to believe in the seed that was to come That would keep the covenant inherit the land and bless the nations so so galatians chapter 3 verse, uh verse 6

And on it says just as abraham believed god and it was counted to him as righteousness know that That it is those who are of the faith who are the sons of abraham in the scripture for seeing that god would justify the gentiles by faith

Preach the gospel the gospel is what it says the gospel the good news that paul is also saying in galatians chapter one

Is the singular gospel that there's not a plurality of gospels The singular gospel was preached beforehand to abraham saying in you shall all the nations be blessed

So then those who are of the faith are blessed along with abraham the man of faith If you go to galatians or not galatians genesis chapter 15 where that is talking about abraham being credited with righteousness it says there

Let's see here. Where does it say in verse 6 and he believed the lord and it was counted to him as righteousness Earlier and later on in this this time of the covenant so abraham was not saved by obeying that covenant he was not saved by Uh, because there's a there's a there's a stipulation to this covenant that says walk and be blameless

Walk and be blameless now go circumcise yourself Do all these different acts in order to maintain and go into the land all these kind of things that are given to abraham, right?

Abraham was not saved through his righteousness. He was credited with righteousness So that covenant that was required works did not produce in him life

It was the grace of god that granted him life. It was grace of god that gave him salvation And so the old testament what was that covenant then needed for well

It also produced an ethnic people from him And one of those ethnic people from him was going to be the one that was crediting him with the righteousness

There so it was needed in that sense to bring about the christ. It was until Christ tell tom to get on debbie

Anyway back to matthew chapter five jeff before we get to To taken down with everything so talking about the law being until christ

The law until christ Now so so let me phrase this for people because they've probably never heard anything like this.

Yep We're looking at this From a baptist covenant idealist view

Okay so this interpretation that you're about to get we would say is the correct interpretation because it's

It's actually what galatians is is it's touching on pointing back to so we're using what what paul is

Clearly teaching in galatians to help us understand What jesus is saying here?

Not saying that jesus is teaching wasn't good enough for us to understand but we're using scripture to Compare scripture and they're actually touching on something that I think will illuminate the mind

That's right so i'm just going to read the text and then we're going to talk about the opposition the clear contradiction if If we take a certain position in this text, but there can't be any contradiction

Paul very clearly says that the law was until christ. Let's see what jesus says in matthew 5 17 to 20.

He says this Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them

For truly I say to you until heaven and earth pass away not an iota not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished

Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same Will be called least in the kingdom of heaven

But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven

For I tell you unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and the pharisees You will never enter the kingdom of heaven now.

You might want to ask yourself. What law is this talking about? It's the law that the pharisees and sadducees were under that They were trying to claim that they were righteous over others with which was the mosaic law so Christ says that the law that will not will not

Uh go away until heaven and earth pass away so the

First objection that would be made is that this is talking about the second coming of christ All right.

Let's pause there and just think about that First of all that makes paul wrong and what he says in galatians that the law was until christ

All right Second of all, oh gosh, get him off get him off Oh tom get out of here.

I just want to tell you guys. Hey, everybody i'm here If you would have fell back in that seat that would have been priceless

You guys miss me, huh, I heard you guys were about ready to call haps back so I wanted to hurry before you

Get here Oh half just clicked on Oh Oh, I gotta say hi to my wife

Go kiss your wife. She's been a terrible husband All right, let's get back to this

You just grab the computer run out of the house Hey, wait, hold on a sec. Hold on Look at that.

We're still I got a little hurt with my besties, you know No, you're hanging out with your bestie.

You have to kiss the wife before hanging out with us That's messed up, dude And he's running away he's probably gotta go pee

Pees every like five minutes that old man All right back to this so so okay, so if if Matthew 5 says that the law is until heaven and earth pass away and heaven earth means the second coming of christ when he makes

The new heaven and the new earth come if that's the understanding of this text Then paul is in contradiction to scripture because paul says that same law that jesus is talking about here

Was until christ that it went away at christ the guardians and stewards are no longer needed according to galatians chapter 4 in that chapter

Uh, if if that's the case, there's a clear contradiction. So first of all, it cannot be talking about that where paul is wrong

Second of all the post -millennialists that wants to argue not necessarily the post -millennialists.

Excuse me Post -millennialists are inconsistent with this because they would read some other chapters of the text and say that heaven and earth

Talk about the temple well They don't most post -millennialists want to say that the law still exists today the mosaic law exists today.

Go ahead jeff So let's just make it clear Maybe not all post -millennialists would have this interpretation

But a theonomic post -millennial would definitely have that interpretation. Thank you.

Thank you Thank you. I know that because I used to be one you used to be but the law delivered me So he used to be a lot of things

Diddy So so the

Is being inconsistent when they when they say heaven and earth means the temple over here But not in this text because the law still exists today a theonomic post -millennialist.

Thank you for correcting me on that So let's just say let's just assume that heaven and earth is talking about the the common jewish tradition of that day listen if if we are in our in In our context today and I said hey i'm going to the market

To get something or i'm going to the grocery store to get something or i'm going to the swensons down the street to get something

I said that three different ways and yet every time I said it you knew exactly what I was talking about I've never heard of a swensons.

What's a local grocery store around here, right? So there's different ways There's different means to say the same word that means the same exact thing based on the context that we're talking about, right?

and so A lot of people would say that heaven and earth in that day rightly

So the jews understood that was where heaven met earth was the temple You had the holies of holies you had the first part of the temple and that was heaven and earth

Is where the holies that where where god met earth where heaven met earth right heaven and earth

And so they would say heaven and earth is 70 a .d. Is the destruction of the temple the issue with that though Is that the law was not until 70 a .d

Paul is writing. Yep. Paul is writing the book of galatians In I want to say

I correct me if i'm wrong. I think it's the year 52 b 80 I think I would have to go and look at it

It's really close it's before 70 a .d. Right for sure

So paul says it's until christ So what is christ then mean what's the only interpretation left here in this text?

And I want to predicate this on two things real quick first text in the gospel of john

It says that jesus says I think it's john. Jesus says you will see angels ascending and descending upon the son of man

Yeah, so it's john chapter one. He's speaking to nathaniel Yeah, and and I would argue that it's going back to jacob's dream about the ladder or the stair

And and how it was a ladder that was touching the earth that reached to heaven angels are able to ascend and descend

Yep, jesus is saying I am that ladder. I I am that staircase. There's the whip the whiff

Hi, we're the second besties good to see you with Yeah So we're gonna chop labor our best

Thousand thousand percent that it's talking about jacob's ladder, right? However in that day

Have you ever seen an angel climb up the ladder at the same time or a human being climb up a ladder? Why someone's going down it doesn't work another translation there in In jacob's ladder is a staircase most likely what jacob was seeing

What was something that was called a ziggurat a temple in those days in the ancient near east times Because have you ever seen somebody go up and down staircases at the same time?

Yes, so what is jesus saying when you'll see the angels ascending and descending upon the son of man?

He's saying i'm the temple. I'm the tabernacle Right. He's using different language.

That still means the exact same thing to you and I also john 114 already tells us that he tabernacled amongst men.

He's the temple the tent the tabernacle jesus says destroy this Temple and I will raise it up on yeah

He makes himself out to be the temple Yep, that's right. So If heaven and earth is a saying for temple

He calls himself temple using different language all the time Let's now think about that when we read this text

Do you not think that i'd come to abolish the law or the prophets? I I something I missed to point out today is is there still the office of prophets?

No, no, when did prophets end jeff john the baptist john the baptist

Old testament prophets john the baptist was the final prophet an old testament prophet had two things that they did

One was they prophesied a coming judgment if israel did not repent two they prophesied the coming of the messiah boom, amen

Celebration going on right there I can't do it. Anyway, so J jesus already says in luke 16 16,

I believe it is that the time of the prophets were until john, john John, john the baptist, right?

Wait a second. So the prophets have ended off. Yes So do not think that i've come to abolish the law or the prophets

I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them whichever and when he says fulfill them He's always so how did he fulfill the old testament prophets?

He by life died rose again Yeah by being the messiah whom the prophets spoke would come so he fulfills it by by being who he is the position

That's right, so he didn't abolish the prophets he fulfilled the prophets, right? So for truly

I say to you until heaven and earth pass away not an iota

Not a dot will pass from the law Until all is accomplished all is accomplished is the language that christ uses often to talk about fulfillment of scripture

What is the heaven and earth passing away in this text? It's the way that you and I Have righteousness that exceeds the pharisees and the sadducees which is when christ jesus lives a perfect life and passes away

Dies and rises our sacrifice substitutionary atonement. So when did the law end?

When was it until? Jesus christ Yeah, if you're a theonomist and that's trying to say that the law exists today

You have to say the office of prophet still exists and you have to contradict 90 other bible verses

Yeah, so what? So so so let's address this real quick So so this is what you call speaking

Two different languages because that's because jesus is not an old testament prophet. Jesus is pointing out that John is the very last old testament prophet.

Yeah Here's why because john prophesied to come in judgment the ax is laid to the root of the tree matthew chapter 3 verse 10

Right any tree does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire that fire being hell

Skip down in verse 12. The willow and fork is in his hand He would thoroughly cleanse the threshing floor gather his wheat to the barn, but the chaff he will burn with the unquenchable fire

So that's that judgment coming But if you look at verse 11, he speaks about one coming whose sandals is unworthy to carry

He will baptize with the holy spirit and fire and so right there is the prophecy of of the messiah

So john the baptist fulfills the old testament requirement of the prophet because he did both

So he did those two things that all the old testament prophets did prophesied to come in judgment if there was no repentance and prophesied the the future coming of the messiah, but unlike them he was able to see this the future coming messiah when he saw him he says behold the lamb of god who

Takes away the sin of the world now. Is jesus a prophet?

Of course, but he's not an old testament prophet same thing with what's being addressed here

Jesus is not a levitical priest either Right. He's the priest after the order of kelson. Yep.

That's right. Yeah That's right Yeah, this text right here.

So going back to a theonomist if you're a theonomist who's trying to say that heaven and earth Yeah, yep, yep if you were saying that the heaven and earth have not passed away therefore the law still exists today and you're trying to say mosaic

Judicial and ceremonial law not the moral transcendent law not the law that holds everybody accountable and that scripture has shut up everybody under sin with But if you're trying to take those specific laws given to moses in the nation of israel

You need the office of prophets today to stop being inconsistent Everybody says that the office of prophets for the most part has ended

You also need to be saying that the law has ended and guess what the same argument is They both pointed and they both were until christ

That's scripture 1689 federalism baby. That's right.

That's right. You want to get the bible, right? You guys got it all going on You can leave tom

I have people here that I love Me oh you're talking about debbie.

Yes We were cheated on like he went home scalp

Yeah You know what? We had a good time over there. That's good. We have some people that watch us here.

Don't we? I want you real quick. Tell us how how you how to go how to go dude, so Pretty I thought

I thought it went really well Uh, we went out there and and friday. We made a case of who was who was to go out

And do evangelism and we walked people through um acts chapter Uh one all the way through eight kind of fast -forwarded to chapter eight looked at characteristics of an evangelist

People were encouraged that that if you're a born -again believer in christ that you are You are to care the gospel for that you are to go proclaim it

That the early church believed that it was their duty that they were obligated to share the gospel And so that why should we be any different?

And so we went through that that was about an hour broke for pizza uh, then bobby trejo, uh got up and baby basically gave the tenets of the gospel what needs to be

Communicated when we're sharing the gospel and it was a walk -through that they that god is the creator.

We are created God is sovereign Uh, we are dependent God is holy we're

Wicked holy unholy, you know, etc And we need a substitute and so it's all about communicating the gospel

And then we took uh the crew um, tammy and uh, and and and laura

Um, and her husband came out and there were some other people brandon went out there and we went through preaching at the state fair in tulsa and It was a blessing for about three hours

But it's also encouraging yeah, and so then we went to his church this morning and Man, he made a case for office of evangelists from the scriptures um

In in not not on top of prophet matter of fact what you guys are talking about here today

It was really good. It was really good. It was a blessing. It was wonderful, but I did wish you guys somewhat

Nah, it's all good. You would have answered our phone call if you missed us. I did I even tried to call Before we went on evangelism, i'm just kidding

What debbie you're not supposed to do that Old man

This is wisdom here you have to help me again tom, uh, yeah

So preparation You know, that's why

I tell you all that with preparation h let me tell you something That's what took me so long to get back from tulsa.

It's supposed to be a five hour drive But it took me 10 to that for pit stops. Oh Old men have to pee a lot

You and joe biden have a lot in common Where's the kids hair

I can sniff I don't have to make this abuse you guys listen

I'm, i'm working. What'd you guys make? Did you make me yoda again on the graphic? Did they know? He's saying the graphic Red Joe biden and laughing

Man So brian brian was there so brian is married married to laura.

And so yeah church And and I ain't got to meet brian in person as far as I remember

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I look forward to hanging out with them, you know, they weren't hanging around with you No, yes, they are.

They told me listen, they like my rapping. Okay, and i'm not talking about gifts. Okay They they might i'm uh

They don't like braden at all. They told me I I don't blame them.

I don't like me either Yeah, and you have small hands yes, maybe

All right, is your wife coming samuel She better be red

Put that on Yeah, put one on I put it on I put

I got it. I got it Cute there for you. I don't know what you

Understand i'm screen sharing i'm screen sharing. Oh, oh, well you gotta say yeah I said put it on.

I don't This was the decal for the show right here. We got Big bear look

Grandson right here. Ravi. Zacharias some other guys some other guys steve. Lawson's reaching out to touch you tom

Yeah, it looks a little inappropriate I'm, are you somebody's side chick?

Sorry, have you been diddied? Have you been lost?

No, i'll tell you what though. I think ravi. Zacharias popped some seals though Ravi, zacharias did some bad things.

I'm telling you that seals Oh man, who else who are we talking about?

I mean, are we talking about some of these fellers? You missed it You should have been on. Yeah, I missed it, man.

Okay right now We're just messing with the we're just chatting back and forth to the audience Yep Just cutting it up Yeah, they was going over We were trying to like lessen a little bit but then they started calling you grandpa tom grandpa shepherd

I am kevin hayes dad. Yep I think it's kevin hayes great grandfather's who you are

Yeah No, well you're just talking about the law, uh, just something

I was running by jeff earlier something that just talked about in the past He was telling me something.

He's like, oh I got something new. I got something new and I was like, you know I jumped to this Cameron The heaven and earth thing is something new you didn't come up with that one

Dude, I was talking about this two years ago. You're such a liar jeff. Don't lie on camera. This looks bad for you

Oh my lord This looks bad No, we're just talking about uh, matthew 5 17 through 20 that your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and the pharisees because the righteous life that christ lived when when he

Imputed his righteousness into your account. Your sin was imputed upon him when he died. So His righteousness is applied is imputed to you when you believe excuse me before I get nitpicked on my my inappropriate language, but Yeah, I mean like i'm pretty sure like I would call up perhaps addison or or or or happy gay, whatever you want to call him and and and maybe he would

It would tell the truth i'm afraid he probably wouldn't right so so this was back whenever I was looking into jeff durbin his his view

Because in matthew chapter 24, he mentioned that heaven and earth was the temple Right, and so but when

I go to chapter 5 and I listen to his conversation on chapter 5 verse 17 He did not make that connection

He's saying I was upset because he wasn't being consistent Yeah And so I you know, like if someone's gonna hold to something and if it's different from what

I hope to okay fine But are you consistent with it and in that one area?

I didn't I was a little upset because I didn't find him being consistent with it and then we was having this conversation years ago

But I guess you just blew me off like Like you do, you know It is back in your theonomic weird stage.

So No, I had come out of theonomy when I preached through galatians. I've been I haven't been a theonomist over four years

Who helped you come out of theonomy? I preached through galatians

Okay. Well who helped you come out of post -millennialism? Yeah, you had you had a hand you're welcome you're welcome

You're welcome. However, I turned that into a roundabout compliment You're right. I'm just saying you got it wrong at first.

He says theonomy you didn't do that. Galatians got me out of theonomy My fault But how much of theology have

I helped your butt out with? Maybe one or two things maybe Maybe Hey, we help everybody out here.

All right So Yeah, I mean that's what we're doing. It's iron sharpening iron And listen, let me say this if you hold to the same theology.

I mean like just everything that you did 20 years ago you might want to Dig a little deeper you stop reading the same study bible.

Yeah And when you do get rid of that bible and get a new one get a rebound by post -tenebrous lux bible rebinding

Yeah, that's right. I'll tell you what the lion and lamb Oh my god, we don't promote guys over here

Wow They're stowed my style of rebinding

That's like saying voldemort and hogwarts dude, did you mail my wife's bible yet? No, you didn't give me the address sometime you didn't answer your phone tom you've had my address you've sent me bibles before Yeah, but last time

I sent you you said don't send it usb this in it And I was I was trying to make sure but which way you want me to send you know what you tell her

She just asked the question I'm mailing it tomorrow. Oh, see we're going to the conference

This oh, it's not gonna it's not Well It'll be there by wednesday

More likely wednesday or thursday You should get there

What conference are you going to on saturday next week? The neo cessation cessationist one.

We're just talking about people that go to too many conferences throughout the year. Tom. You're on the hit list now Yeah You are a celebrity pastor

You know, i'm a Celebrity pastor lover you're And in line

And shake some hands i'm gonna go yeah, you're the problem you're the problem walker's hand

Yeah, okay, yes, that'll be good We did have some questions that I think would be a good thing to uh go through here

Uh two things that i've seen and if I miss somebody else's comment, I apologize. Michelle asked a question

Romans 11 about the all of israel, which I want to be the one to answer that and then also

Uh, the humble babtist podcast asked abraham's bosom question mark Which one which one

I want to talk about romans 11, can I talk about romans 11 real quick For sure, but we might have something to say

See in detail romans 11

Everybody turn to romans 11. Everybody turn to romans 11. Romans 11 is talking about Israel before after revelations

With an ass y 'all are making me mad i'm about to get off this

Romans 11 is talking about romans 11 is talking about Israel being the olive tree

And that we have been engrafted into that olive tree. What is the olive tree called in the old testament is real first of all second of all look at verse

Uh, I think it's verse five. Let me look here Oh, it's in this way then in this yeah, where is that at where does it say that it's five

Since he wanted what translation are you reading out of tom lsb Oh my goodness, why aren't you using the esb dude you backslider?

Tom you went and hung out with your besties and now you aren't even using the bible that jeff rebounded for you

I have it packed in. Oh, he's got it on his phone. Oh my goodness Okay esb so At the present time

There is a remnant chosen by grace, I don't like you guys And why'd you rush home to get on here with us

He didn't rush you peed every time every second he got Will someone give me

I'm just gonna go right in the truck Oh man, that reminds me of a gross joke.

I'll tell you guys after the show All right Romans 11 verse 5 the greek word there

So to or in this way then depending on your translation is I believe it's for you So I would have to look at the greek, but i'm just saying that's what it is

You then go down to verse 26 And it says and in this way So that's the same way earlier.

It says so too. I like the esb man. I just realized this in this way That's great.

It translates it correctly In this way, I imagine that Tom, how dare you have an lsb out?

in the presence of the greatness of paul's translation

The elect standard version, yeah, he also had a bible too. Yes, he did

Abraham was credit was credited with righteousness. Paul was credited with the Post -apostolic All right, we're gonna keep on going

Okay So too at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace

That's in verse 5 Okay. No now let's go to 25 lest you be wise in your own sight

I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery brothers A partial hardening has come upon israel until the fullness of gentiles has come in and in this way

All israel will be saved as I didn't know that you have to be translated like that. That's so perfect That's the way the greek reads right there

Dude I'm, sorry. I'm just kind of blown away right now and in this way all of israel will be saved a lot of translation says

And or what how does a lot of the other translations you just have the lsv open I did and I was hounded got crucified for it.

So So every other translation a lot of other translations will say

And so all israel will be saved meaning that it's a separate event from the fullness of the gentiles coming in However, the greek should be read at the point of the fullness of the gentiles coming in which is speaking of all the elect gentiles

And the verse also talks about those that haven't been hardened in israel meaning that they're having faith in christ

When the fullness of all the elect of gentiles and the fullness of all the elect of jews come in All of israel the singular guess what the whole text is arguing about the singular olive tree

If you're in the olive tree, you're israel and it's when the fullness of that tree comes in all of israel has been

Saved the reason I say this is look at the very next verse it says Deliverer the deliverer will come from zion and he will banish ungodliness from jacob

And this will be the covenant This is the important one verse 27 and this will be my covenant with them when

I take away their sins What verse is that quoting from? It's quoting from jeremiah 31 31 through 34 and it's and that's quoted for us in hebrews chapter 8

As the text that the church has been made that christ has made a covenant for all the elect including gentiles

So jews and gentiles are saved in the covenant of grace romans 11 quotes from the covenant of grace right after the verse it says

When gentiles and jews come to know christ all of israel has been saved. It's just talking about the church all of israel will be saved

Yeah And again, I kind of pointed this out a few weeks ago if you want to know

Who the olive tree is right? And so zachariah

It's yeah What was zachariah were clearly told that the olive tree is israel

Yeah, all right however When you get to revelation chapter 11 and it speaks about the the two witnesses the two the two prophets

To it. Yeah, the two two prophets are two olive trees and two lampstands all right, so In romans 11 it talks about the gentiles are a wild olive branch that's grafted in To the cultivating olive tree and the natural branches are broken off.

And so you have the spiritual descendants of abraham both Physical descendants and spiritual descendants.

And so when you go to revelation chapter 11 It it mentions the two prophets are two olive trees and Two lampstands and in chapter one of revelation, it tells you that the lampstands is the church

So who is israel? It's the church That's right. Amen And also in romans chapter, uh nine,

I just showed the the text so I can't read it verbatim it says not all of israel is

Israel so paul in the same exact verse Uses israel israel the same word israel israel used in two different ways for two different groups of people

So just because it says all of israel will be saved you have to ask yourself Is he talking about those that have faith in christ or those that have faith in works?

And if you think that it's the faith and works group that will all of israel will be saved I'm, sorry, my friend you have misinterpreted the text, right?

All israel are those who are in christ. Amen the root the root Of abraham spiritual the descendants of abraham

The only way anyone is it it is it is in that olive tree right now

Is if they had faith in jesus christ both old testament And and however long the lord carries that's right.

Amen And chris johnson just correctly said revelation 20 says that jerusalem is the bride of christ, which what is the church called often?

The bride of christ, that's right. It's it's it's there. So one of the saying I am

Israel I am a jew romans 2 29

Yep, 100 True, you don't if if you don't it doesn't even say true jew.

It just says I am a jew. It says you are I'll say that I am a true jew because Those that have faith in jesus christ

Our messiah, that's right If you're if you're a gentile and you feel awkward and saying

I am a jew Just go read what paul says and just admit it. You're a true jew. You're a jew if you've been born again

So the real yeah, so georgia. Yes, that means all of us. We are all called israel.

The church is called israel several times galatians 6 Well, wait, wait, wait, I would say

I would actually say that that christ is the true israel and we are in christ therefore, right?

Well, let me ask you this let me ask you this so christ body Christ has a body christ had a body on earth, right?

He was written suffered died rose from the grave Yeah, the church his bride is also his body.

Yeah, so he's also the true church Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, so it's it's interchangeable

Pride of christ and everything when you talk about the marriage and everything are we are not our own right? We belong

We are not our own we belong that's right Even that illustration of marriage And I would also point people to ephesians chapter 2 beginning in verse 11 all the way to chapter 3 deep into 3

Paul makes the point that there is no distinction between the physical descendants of abraham who are in christ and the spiritual descendants

Abraham of christ who are the gentiles? Yep, you'd also see in in galatians.

It says that there wasn't seeds plural but seeds singular speaking of the Yep, yeah, the root is christ, but So the seed is is christ

In in in genesis 15 the seed is christ, but then in verse 29 of galatians It says that if you have faith in christ, you are heirs

Of abraham children of the promise so christ is the true heir but because we're in his body

We are also heirs so a dispensationalist would say that the root is abraham

What? Yes They will say the root is abraham the root on the yellow heresy flag, that's

I'm, not talking i'm not saying classic dispensation. I'm saying progressive Dispensationalist the john macarthur eyes would say that the root is abraham if abraham's your root you have no hope in this world

Yeah, we have our only hope is what? Christ it's not in abraham. It's in here.

If you believe the root is abraham your savior is still sitting in a tomb

Yeah, and because we have to yeah, I mean he's our covenant head. It's he was looking to the promised seed

He was looking to the promised seed Ah, that's so frustrating and he was talking to the word of yahweh.

He was looking at pre -incarnate christ Yes, yeah hearing christ himself say one of your seeds will bless the nation

I know some people have probably already heard this but a year or so ago

I played a joke on brazen. It was not funny. Did you give him extra large gloves?

Tom that's that's not even close to how funny this was it was messed up He was arguing something like this and I and then

I I went this beyond him and I was like I was like we are not israel

That's replacing theology He took it too far It was not funny

I literally I remember when it happened and where every time I thought about it It was listen, it was about 2 12 p .m

Nice saturday evening and i'm driving with my wife and family.

We're we're out No, i'm i'm driving into costco my wife can validate this story i'm driving into costco i've got

I'm driving illegally because i'm talking to my friend jeff arguing with him about israel We're pulling into costco and he drops this garbage on me

We didn't go into costco that day because of how mad I was We didn't know it

I was so mad. I was like, how can jeff Say he's a reformed baptist and be a freaking dispute, but I was so mad

Actually make that claim though But this this hit differently tom This was a friend that I was writing a book with that.

I was really worried about I thought I thought he lost his salvation there for a moment

Well, I waited till the next day and said I was just playing why you so mad you waited two days didn't you

It was too freaking long. It was glorious Dude, I was so mad.

I was fuming It was glorious he had a star david on his next bible that he's making

Israel's flag Dude I'm telling you what you would get some cells if you did that dude, you got an israel flag

I wouldn't be struggling paying my rent right now Oh, man, do we want to talk about the rich man lazarus?

Yeah abraham's bosom. Yeah, I mean we got a few minutes Yeah, so so we would take the position that um abraham's bosom is actually what some people would

Is paradise right? But we would say that it is the inner courts of the tabernacle.

So the Visual would be the inner courts of the tabernacle and then you have the outer courts So you have that little gate on the outer courts and that would be where the place of the dead is and so when moses was instructed to build a tabernacle the book of hebrews tells us that That that he went that he saw the heavenly picture of the tabernacle, right?

Right. And so it was a copy in the shadow. It was a copy in the shadow And so the rich man and lazarus

So the rich man is in the place of the dead torment and then you had lazarus is in the bosom of abraham

This doesn't mean that his head was I can't i'm trying to hug my own chest, right? His head was in the bosom of abraham, right?

Uh, it means that he was Yeah, i'm over here. No other side Go the other way.

Oh, i'm trying to lay on your head, dude Here And so the chasm was this the gate right and there's only one way to enter into Into that gate and we find out through scripture that jesus is the door.

He is the gate into the Into this area, right? There's only one way to the father and it's through Through jesus christ when it says that at the root that that lazarus is in the bosom of abraham

It's speaking that he was in the inner courts of this tabernacle Right, and so and the place of the day will be on the outside So they're able because it says that they're able to see one another but they could one could not exit and one could not enter

And so we believe that whenever, uh at the last day this this visual this literal

Tabernacle that's in heaven that the tabernacle of moses has patterned from That's what's coming to earth as the new heavens and the new earth

And the in the place of the dead that's on the outer courts that is going to be tossed into the lake of fire

Right. I know it's a lot but i'm just i just gave you a 10 000 foot bead So believers believers will still be within the presence of god, but they will be able to be physically there like christ

So their enjoyment their glorification their worship to god will be only magnified by a physical resurrection

Whereas the the wicked those that are being judged currently They will also be having a magnified state of punishment and eternal condemnation in their flesh once resurrected

What does the humble baptist say here? So when you say that this was paradise before christ sacrificed a pre -heaven paradise.

So what he's getting at is the so so The view that yes, it didn't change.

That's the point So what he's alluding to is the teaching that that christ descended to hades

And brought people out into heaven and that part of hades was called paradise and that's not what we're saying.

Yeah, that's not yeah So in hebrews in chapter six, I believe it It says that the the the priests would enter into the temple

Into the into the second part of the temple speaking of the holies of holies Once a year and it says that the holy spirit was indicating that to this to us

That we would need that we needed christ to go beyond the veil for us so When did christ do that?

Yeah Yep Before that they didn't have access so so so Paint that out what that looks like christ died.

He's on the cross. He dies Yeah, he's wait waiting to be resurrected Yeah, give a picture of what he was doing so they didn't have a way

Because there had been no bloodshed yet, right so imagine abraham being in heaven and he's saying where is the seat at You imagine noah being in heaven saying where is the ark at you?

Imagine isaac standing there saying where is the where is the sacrifice in my stead at?

And they're all they're enjoying god because christ is there But they're not able to make it to the father because they don't have blood yet shed for them

And then here is christ who says hold on one moment. I'll be back And there he goes

The thing that angels long to look to long to see take place Jesus dies and what does he do in his burial?

He comes and he sprinkles his blood there in heaven That's what hebrews teaches. It says that he would be on the veil to sprinkle also

Also, isaiah 53 verse 10 Yeah speaks about when whenever god speaking of god the father sees the sacrifice the offering

He will prolong his day speaking of the resurrection of jesus So jesus goes into the holy of holies.

He sprinkles the blood god sees the sacrifice. He sees the offering Therefore christ raises from the dead.

So so so in his in his burial. So that's The tongue the little

You know Almost as if in a point of time Yes, so jesus does two things, right?

So he's not only the sacrifice. He's the priest So on the cross when he says to tell us die, it is finished.

He's speaking as the sacrifice right but in his but it wasn't like everything wasn't done because he has to as Yeah as a priest he has to enter into the holy of holies and sprinkle the blood and it was his blood that he

Yeah, he's the sacrifice so so he's not only the one who offers the sacrifice

He is the sacrifice and as the sacrifice on the cross He says to tell us die it is finished and as the priest in burial he goes behind the veil

Sprinkles the blood the father sees this The offering and he prolongs his day speaking of the resurrection

You can almost imagine they're in heaven since they can't go into the second place Which again hebrews 8 was a copy and a shadow the people were not allowed into the holies of holies

Only once a year someone could go in and that indicated to us according to that text again chapter 6

That that christ was going to be the priest that would make a sacrifice once for all And so here is christ.

He comes back in the burial After the burial takes place and you could almost imagine on abraham noah and isaac's eyes

There's the seed There's the ark There's the propitiation Entering in as a lamb sacrifice

He goes in and he walks I think I if I remember right james white tied this to revelation 5 6

Where he says then I saw in the midst of the throne the four living creatures And in the midst of the elders listen to this a lamb standing as if slain

Yep I don't know I don't know if james ever said that I definitely said

It was me. It was me at the open air theology. He had a great beard. He was an old man. This was wisdom

You know that sounds like mustache wisdom right there you're in diapers That sounds like a mustache with a soul patch wisdom.

Yeah, it does Think about the lamb standing standing.

I mean you think about a slain This lamb is alive This is alive

Yeah, man, he is standing as if he is slave you guys this is this it's deep

It's deep and think about what they're crying out before that who is worthy who is worthy?

So you can almost imagine up in heaven and abraham's bosom. Why is it called abraham's bosom? Because they're the they

They you can see abraham as a man that was credited with righteousness So of course you would call it that place the place that the man abraham went to right the place of the promise

And what is a bosom what is a bosom it's something that's inside abraham What was the promise given to abraham a seed inside of you?

A seed inside of you. So what what is this called? The place of christ is a better way of saying it in the place of the seed the place where the christ is

Yep, that's right. And so there they are They can't they can't gain entrance into the father's place because they still have yet have that sacrifice who is worthy

Who's the seed who's the ark and here comes christ? So that gives credence listen to this in paul's exhortation of what the gospel is to the church

Church of corinth there in chapter 15. He says it's the death of christ the burial and the resurrection what took place in his burial

Is important brothers and sisters. Absolutely. It cannot be ignored. What did christ do on our behalf there in heaven for us when he saw

The thief that was hanging next to him there in paradise when he saw lazarus There in abraham's bosom he was still continuing to do an immediator a mediatory, uh work for you and I I think about this

I I think sometimes we try to lessen the importance of the of the burial. Absolutely.

All right, so so on the cross He was the lamb And his death

Burial he was the priest. Oh, I like where you're going. Jeff. Keep it coming and then his resurrection.

He sits on the throne. Amen victory That will preach dude

He's seated On his throne. Yes, it's finished. That's right.

It's finished Which that's where I think that there's a little bit of a distinguishing thing going on with their from revelation chapter 5 because it's

Christ is the lamb is not sitting in that text. It's standing opening something that no one else has been able to open

Which is the seven seals again. I I think that this is talking about in his burial in my opinion, right?

Yeah, honest thing of vision all three are apart in his death. Well, look look What's that?

Life Yes, you are, you know life death burial resurrection Don't don't take away any of that right now and also add his ascension

That's right It's it's great stuff. How can you get balloons?

it's because He's got gay hands. Look at those gang signs right there Almost looks like he needs a shake weight in them

I got a rabbit How do you be a rabbit oh I used to What I didn't break it down, but I used to start

All right. All right. I used to be that guy So again, I I one other thing that I think is really important to note though Is that?

When it says that the man goes down to hades How does it describe hades? It says that The last

Send lazarus with his finger With a dip of water and put it on my tongue to relieve the pain of this flame.

It's a place of torment It's a place of flame is the way he describes it

And he's seeking relief from those that he saw as destitute in his life And he says to the people he says tell them that that that this exists and he's they say no and he says

Send back Lazarus somebody from the dead and Abraham says they will they have the law and the prophets.

They won't even believe if somebody comes back from the dead Which is about to end Why is christ saying that because the law and the prophets were until christ

And christ is about to rise from the dead over and over and over again. That's beautiful Gospel is a beautiful message

Hmm. Yes It's just amazing how something To me, that's so beautiful to see redemption

At the cost of my of my sin, um And for into experience and the act of witnessing to someone

How that beautiful message becomes foolishness and causes them to be angry and want to fight you um like it

We we saw some of that This this past weekend matter of fact, it was laura and what was interesting was laura was communicating, you know, the

You know, sometimes we have to overcome fears and stuff like that and you know, we said, you know just go out there and you know, we just We just need to know that you know

People look what they did with stephen. They gnashed their teeth at him and they rushed him and they and they stoned him

And I this guy went up to laura just just this past weekend She had gone to the gate of the of the fair and was hamming a track there

And this guy came out older man. I mean crotch to be old man older than me even And was point and I mean literally

He was old a couple years older and And was pointed as he he's and he was just faces you

And just wanted to it was horrible it was horrible and it was like Just anger that somebody has it's like, you know what and that's what it is.

They love their sin that much They love their sin that much they are not going to submit than me

But at the same time christ will even forgive that if they would only repent and turn away

Even if we shake our fist his mercy is more Yeah, he was so angry.

Yeah, man was never safe, right guys I only do it when it's safe.

I'm just joking. Yeah, well

Yeah Any other questions

I got questions. What's your question? I don't know. You got some ditty questions.

No ditty. Yeah Oh Do I got questions?

So so when zachariah was made mute, oh my gosh

Let's end it ain't got ain't nobody got time for this Because they was making signs

They was making signs Just saying Okay. Yes, they were making signs.

They were drawing They made a sign still no pain it's been

Yeah, so jay is a guy that goes to our church, okay. Oh, yeah, we'll be praying Most definitely.

Yeah, good brother, uh reformed like truly reformed 1689 baptist Good Yeah, his wife was able to be there today good they're really good people good

All right, guys, it's been two hours tom. It's been ten words Huh, it's been 10 minutes for you.

Yeah last words Go ahead. Tom. I got something really good. So don't click off people.

Okay One go one go to the conference If you haven't bought your tickets get online and purchase purchase tickets for the open air theology conference you guys

It's it's not going to be a conference any like any other thing It's better than g3

The fellowship's better than fellow, you know, no no celebrity pastors except brayden might be

Celebrity by then You might have to stand in line to shake his hand or get his autograph.

I might You don't get to shake my hands the amount of jokes you've made about my hands you don't get to touch them

Look at look at them Right there. They're glorious Look how look how average size they are.

Look they're so big They're so glorious Yeah, so so laura so that was one thing the other thing so when that guy was uh was mocking he was shaking

You know, basically just angry And and we just leave those that type of attitude and the people who mock god is to say listen, man

God will not be mocked You know and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that jesus christ is lord

And you have a chance right now by the grace of god to bow your knee right now And submit to him

But you love your sin more and if you do if you love your sin more then you're gonna you're gonna face the consequences of that sin we just got hurt got through hearing what what uh

What hell would be like it's something like I mean, we would never be able to comprehend anything like it a dark a darkness

Separated from his mercy and his grace for eternal life. So here's my last thing i'm gonna say

Wear the gospel on your lips keep it on your tongue go out and tell someone make it a point

And I hope you guys did this last week. I said you go out Find someone go communicate the gospel to them.

Tell them to repent and believe and leave that pebble in their shoe man Leave that pebble in their shoe knowing that they're going to walk away from the conversation

Thinking about what you told them Let make it bother them make them feel uncomfortable.

Let them walk away with a pebble on their shoe Go share the gospel

Last words brighton I got a debate coming up this saturday october 5th the gospel this

The gospel truth i'm getting there 8 p .m. Eastern standard time. So check your time zone be there the gospel truth.

Please be rooting for me I would appreciate that. Please be praying for me and that I would just be able to proclaim god's truth

The our babies born with a sinful nature and i'm taking the affirmative the positive position on that But I do believe babies are born with a sin nature because all are dead in adam

All are fallen in adam all have a corrupt sinful nature because of adam So please be praying for me be ready for that If you live in the southern california area in the ventura county area grace bible church moore park

Love to be able to see you there early december That would be a really great blessing even if you don't live there and you have family or friends that live in that area acquaintances

Maybe some stranger that you know that lives in that area Please tell them to know who jesus christ is and tell them about a wonderful church there

Uh, it'd be a great blessing to see them. Also reformed ex -mormon is my youtube channel Uh, love you guys.

It's been a blessing to talk through these things The law was until christ the prophets were until christ. Everything's about christ make your life about christ amen

All right, well What are you gonna? Let me say bye What's yours i'm trying okay, oh man, just relax, huh?

All right. Well again if you're ever in telehoma, tennessee come check us out and When I snap my fingers these two guys are gonna forget they were gay