Victor Paul Wierwille

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.
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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the
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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is
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James White Thank you. Morning. Welcome to the dividing line for those of you who are
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Time challenged you're probably wondering we had people come in, you know an hour ago Where's the dividing line and stuff like that?
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That's because this last Sunday was when everybody was running around changing their clocks Unfortunately, I'm still running around changing mine that are radio controlled and don't have an on -off switch for either daylight savings time or something like that But anyway, we are here at our regular time and I put a video up a
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Couple days ago again, it will appear. I don't know a couple months from now on the blog but for those who follow along on the
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YouTube page, it's It came up I think sometime last week where I played
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Pretty much everything it had been provided on YouTube. Anyway of dr. Jamal Badawi's comments in a debate with the dr
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Rittenhouse of Biola on the deity of Christ That was recorded outside interestingly enough on a campus.
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That would probably be an interesting way of doing things. But anyway one of the
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Statements that Badawi makes He also made in his debate with William Lane Craig quite some time ago
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And it has to do with John chapter 20 verse 28 John 20 28 and of course, this is
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Thomas's response to the risen Lord We're addressing Jesus directly
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He says my Lord and my God now there have been all sorts of amazing ways to try to get around what
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John 2028 means and they truly are amazing. I mean the Jehovah's Witness standard answer of this being my
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Lord my God as if he was Taking God's name in vain or or in shock or some absurd thing like this
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That's that's the most common one, but it's very difficult for me not to laugh at such absurdities It's very difficult for me not to become rather upset that someone can be so dim -witted
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And so cavalier with the text of scriptures to use that kind of argumentation, but there are people who do
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Then you have the more sophisticated folks who are trying to get around it by saying well, you know
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These are nominatives not vocatives And so he's talking about his Lord and his God and that of course is destroyed by the fact that if you simply look at The text that says he said to him
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Not to somebody else my Lord and my God the nominative is being used in the place of the vocative
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Not an uncommon thing at this time in the development of Koine Greek, etc, etc, etc so Another way around it, however
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Was was developed back in the 1970s By a small cult leader by the name of Victor Paul Weirwill and Victor Paul Weirwill was of course the founder of the way international which is now split into a billion different Perspectives.
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I don't even know if the way exists any longer if it does it's very very small but back in the 70s was fairly well known and Weirwill wrote a book called
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Jesus Christ is not God and Unfortunately, dr.
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Battley Utilizes this kind of information. In fact in his response He not only quoted directly from the kingdom interlinear translation of the
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Christian Greek Scriptures of Jehovah's Witnesses But he likewise then without direct attribution is in this segment that I'm going to play for you here quoting from Victor Paul Weirwill, so this is how he he makes this presentation.
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I want to respond to that on the program today The statements by the doubter
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Thomas the doubter, but again we find through Christian sources Based on their knowledge of the
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Greek language They say this is a figure of speech in Greek where one word is the reality
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The other one is intensification of that reality So which means then Lord he's talking to Jesus as Lord and my
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God means actually according to Christian and some Christian interpreters you are God like you are
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God like but not God as has been interpreted So here is the presentation
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Not overly in -depth, but this is the the presentation that is Yes, so rich and I are watching a bird attacking one of our cameras outside Hey, it may look like a competitor for food
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I don't know. I think he went into a little more detail in his debate with William Lane Craig Obviously he was hurrying as was written house
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This was obviously a very short debate more of a soundbite type thing, but he is clearly quoting from Jesus Christ is not
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God my particular edition of this book, and I think there's more than one edition and some of them changed It's the only one I can find right now
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And this is the nineteen eighty fourth printing nineteen eighty six version of Werewolves book
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Jesus Christ is not God and he quotes Thomas Sands and said in him my Lord my God And he says however an even greater truth is shown by the usage of Thomas addressing
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Jesus Christ my Lord Oh my god, it brings to light the precision of a figure of speech now You need to know something about werewolf there was no figure of speech that werewolf didn't like and he basically dug out all the books on on Allegories metaphors figures of speech everything you'd find and any text didn't fit into his very odd and strange theology
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He would just simply find some kind of figure of speech category That he could cram it into now
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Fundamentally let me take you back to Many many moons ago when
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I was sitting in second year Greek class with dr.
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Mike Baird and In second year you learn something called syntax and when you
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Do second year Greek this in college level Greek You are assigned a certain passage and let's say you're studying genitives that week and so you have to provide a syntactical category for each the genitives in the text you're translating and You have to present it and then here's the key you have to defend it and When you learn the syntactic categories of for example a genitive and there are many
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There are sort of default categories of the basic meanings of of the terms that are the general normal usage of the genitive
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And if you're gonna go for a more specific or more unusual or or more rare Syntactical category you're gonna say this words actually functioning this way
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You have more weight put upon you to defend that that less normal more unusual identification so the rarer and rarer category becomes the more evidence you have to be able to provide the stronger your case has to be to Be able to establish that that is the case so I learned early on That if you're if you're gonna make a claim that a certain translation
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And especially if it's a little bit out of the ordinary the onus is on you the weight is on you to demonstrate that there is a a
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Strong case to derived from the text itself that this is how you're to interpret this particular word
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Well, that is something that evidently Victor Paul Weir will never learned It just He he just throws it out there and as long as in some way shape or form it can fit into the category
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Then this must be it. He doesn't have to he doesn't even bother with trying to defend these things
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He doesn't even bother having to explain why he has come up with this and nobody else did He just throws it out there
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And that's just all there is to it and then so you get these little cult group leaders like Victor Paul We're will throw out a book like this.
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It's it's woefully Without it's it has no meaningful argumentation whatsoever from a scholarly perspective
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But then Islamic apologists come along and well, he was a Christian. He talked about Jesus didn't he and He was a scholar.
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And so therefore I'm going to quote this as if it has some sort of Relevance and meaning to my situation today
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So this is what we're about to encounter here Going back to where will he says it brings to light the precision of a figure of speech the specific spigot spigot spigot of each
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The specific figure of speech is called hendi oddies Literally the figure hendi oddies means one by means of two.
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It's hen diya this one by two In in Greek whenever two words are used but only one idea intended it is the figure hendi oddies
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Now, please let me stop right there Whenever two words are used but only one idea intended it is the figure hendi oddies nuts.
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It's not true It's not whenever it's once in a while if the context is supportive and Certain other issues are present in the context maybe but he says whatever now if you were to translate the
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New Testament this way it would end up as a mishmash of Absurd ideas, but again, that's what happens when you read cult books
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One of the two words expresses the fact that the and the other Intensifies it to the superlative degree thus making the statement especially emphatic
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This figure gives considerable cogency to an expression when Thomas exclaimed my lord and my god He was observing the resurrected
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Christ as my godly Lord The word Lord expresses the fact and the word godly intensifies
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Lord to the superlative degree indeed My godly Lord is exactly what Jesus Christ is And so this is how we're will gets around John 2028 in a book
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Of course Jesus Christ is not God where Jesus Christ identify as God He uses hendi oddies as his as his way around this and As we just listened to Jamal Badawi repeats this as if this is a common
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Understanding of Christian scholarship And of course, it is not a common understanding of Christian scholarship at all
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But how do you respond to something like this? Well, obviously I just provided part of the response And that is a person who makes this kind of assertion
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The the burden of proof exists for them to prove their point They're the ones who have to back this up but if you'll look at scholarly grammars, for example,
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I went into my my library and I pulled out a definition
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And Colin Smith was in channel and we both got the same same definition at the same time
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I think he may have been using librarnix as I was I don't remember but you can go to the the blast of Brunner funk
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Grammar, which is not specifically coin a but general general Greek grammar And you can read the definition provided by them which
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Specifically says quote the coordination of two ideas one of which is dependent on the other
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Handiades serves in the New Testament to avoid a series of dependent genitives a series of dependent genitives
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The example of acts 23 6 is given where in most translations you have on account of the hope of the resurrection of the dead which is literally in the
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Greek the hope and resurrection of the dead but the resurrection of the dead is being taken to Identify in the same way as if you put it into a genitive form
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What the hope is is the hope of the resurrection of the dead? Most of the examples
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I found interestingly enough were well you have a number from Luke you have some from from Romans 2nd
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Peter 1 2nd Timothy 2 etc. 2nd Timothy 4 etc. Etc. But the point is that they were all intended to avoid a awkwardness in of construction using genitives none of them
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Were in an address None of them were using that I saw anyways nominatives in in Functioning as vocatives in address with articles and with the word mu my
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Attached to the terms So if this is handy oddies
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Then it would be the only example following its particular form in all the New Testament and you would of course have to provide tremendous
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Argumentation from the context to substantiate this kind of translation which we're will does not even try to do
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Couldn't do and then modern Islamic apologists following after him really should recognize that that is a bit of a problem
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But I Go back to the second year Greek class. I remember very clearly getting into an argument with my professor at one point because I missed a grade by one question and It was on how to syntax one particular heiress as I recall it had to do it it would have been better if this man had been drowned or not been born one two,
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I forget which one was and I missed I missed an entire grade in that class by that one that one
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Argument and I that's where I learned that you're the one who has to back this up And I've never seen anyone who's even tried to back up handy oddies at John 2028 where will doesn't and So when you find folks just uncritically repeating him as if well, you know here you've got this book.
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It's it's not Been reviewed in any positive manner within scholarship itself
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But that's representative Christian scholarship. That's what you're encountering when you deal with With Islamic apologists today and so keep that keep that in mind
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When you hear people saying well Christian scholarship says X. Well, you know what? that term
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Christian scholarship You could you could prove anything
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Based upon saying Christian scholarship just depends on how you want to find it how broadly you want to express it
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Whatever it might be so keep that in mind And if you hear folks, then you might want to tell them, you know
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That really doesn't fit there and you might want to try to prove it if you think that it does 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1
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There was a debate last week on iron sharpens iron with F Lagarde Smith and dr.
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Larry Carino Smith has put out a book against Calvinism and I looked at the book.
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It was sent to me Chris Arden's and really wanted me to do this debate. I simply did not have time to do so I I got an email from a
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Muslim this morning and He and I had started going back and forth a little bit last month
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On and in fact, I think I've mentioned in the program on al -bukhari and The the concern that that Uthman and others had in light of the the deaths of the qurra that's part of the
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Quran a large part of the Quran could be lost if further people died and and just the relevance of these things and We had started going back and forth a little bit
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I do not like doing lengthy email debates because lengthy email debates are only being read by two people and It it just it sucks your time into a black hole and When I was younger, yeah,
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I had you know, I pushed myself more do that kind of thing The older and older have gotten the less and less I've given much consideration to the many people who run around There's another guy over on James Swan's board.
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I think his name is Matthew Bella Sario, you know Roman Catholic and He's he's like William Albrecht everybody in the early church believed in the apocryphal books and the deuterocan
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Everybody you're a fool. If you know the everybody I mean, it's just so patently false.
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It's so obvious that anyone who can come to that kind of conclude everybody in your church
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Believe like I believe anyone who can look at the early church and come up with that kind of monolithic assertion is
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Just blind as a bat that they're just they're they have their their conclusions and there's no reasoning with them
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There's just there's no reason to even try to reason with someone like that because it's just so obvious you know, it's sort of like the flat earthers or You know the people who are always running around looking for conspiracy theories.
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I don't bother trying to reason with these folks because You know the meter is not moving. So there's just no reason to even try they've made up their minds.
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That's it okay, fine you go do your thing and you see how many folks you can convince of your perspective and I'll go do my thing and So similar situation developed here in this discussion with this
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Muslim Because I started to respond and He responded back and I wanted to continue on just because I was enjoying
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Having the opportunity to to delve into this and it was you know, it's a good thing to be doing
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But I've just got a million things going on I've got I've got the the rewrite of the
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King James only controversy, which is going to involve Re -entering every single bit of Greek and Hebrew in the book
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What most people don't know is I originally typeset that book because back in 1994 There was way too much
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Greek and Hebrew in it for the folks at Bethany house to handle So I actually typeset that book Well, the problem is the fonts we use back then are not the standard
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Unicode fonts that are used today and so every bit of Greek and Hebrew in that entire book is gonna have to be re -entered by yours truly and so I've got that going on.
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I've got debates coming up next week. I'm gonna be speaking on Long Island the week after that We've got the
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Steve Gregg thing coming up at the beginning of April I've got more than enough to keep my plate full, you know 24 hours a day
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With less sleep than I should buy I get and so, you know some things you just it might be enjoyable to do
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But you just you just can't do it. Well, I got an email from this morning Are you gonna retract your your statements or I'm gonna publicly expose you
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It's like oh, no, that would be the first time anybody on the Internet's ever said anything bad about me.
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I Mean if I've said many times in various meetings that if you google me
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And if you believe one -tenth of what you what you read, you're never gonna speak to me again because But but notice notice how my enemies frequently tend to quote from each other
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I noticed another attack on my credentials as someone posted in channel
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They I don't know why they bother posting these things in channel all going back the same Mormon a decade ago
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Who actually now works in distance education, but anyways Sort of funny but you know and they and they just have to keep recycling this stuff they can't answer
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I mean I've put out 20 books You would think if I'm so stupid if I if I actually can't handle this stuff that it'd be pretty easy to document that from Published stuff, but no, they can't do that.
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So they they go after the you know, the the the cheap cheesy Means of attack so Anyway, so when someone says
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I'm going to expose you You go ahead and do that, that'll be the first time that's ever happened
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So, you know, you got all that kind of stuff going on out there as well So it's it's it's interesting deal.
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But anyways, I just didn't have time to do Did I didn't see anything new in efflegard -smith's book?
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It's the standard Arminian philosophical Free will has to be there or love doesn't exist
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I'm not really gonna try to explain how God can have exhausted knowledge of future events And I'm really not gonna provide much in the way of exegesis type arguments nothing new and Once you get past certain age if you've already dealt with it before the desire to deal with it again
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It's not quite as strong as it used to be You know There's got to be other people who can do this stuff and Larry Carino did a great job.
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That's what I've heard I had didn't I haven't even had a chance to listen to the debate. I Just watched people in channel talking about it.
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So I didn't even have time to do that. So but James Swan Did a trip me into at least addressing the subject by sending me the closing statement from efflegard -smith?
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On the subject Calvinism, which is quite strident now. It was interesting
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That's Just few moments before the program started we had some folks in channel who seemed to be sort of taking the same view of Arminians that he takes of Calvinists and of course those of us who seek to maintain some sort of balance and Who try to avoid falling off the cliff into hyper
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Calvinism? Despite the fact of constantly being accused of that by the other side we're pointing out that the balance needs to be maintained and it's not just a simple matter of here the five points sign the dotted line or go to hell and so Anyway to listen to efflegard -smith comments here
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It's a little bit difficult, but I'd like to play at least portion of respond to some of the things that were said
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Because they were quite Quite quite interesting. So let's let's listen to what he had to say. I'm actually not starting at the beginning
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It's too long wouldn't fit all of it in but when he starts getting to a discussion of Calvinism specifically as creator
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God made his own in his own make man in his own image with free will But Calvinism maintains that human nature was constitutionally altered as a result of Adam's sin
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Depriving man thereafter of the innate desire or ability to respond positively to God In order for anyone to respond positively to God it would be necessary for God to specifically and selectively
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Regenerate individuals from their state of total depravity now notice just in passing While the statements are true, they're not balanced in the sense that it's not just a lack of a desire there is a presence of a strong desire for evil and rebellion which is
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Reprehensible in God's sight and punishable by immediate Destruction that part seems to get lost because from the
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Arminian perspective man Almost always has to be presented in a much more positive light than the scriptures actually present to him
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You have a man who in his fallen state loves his sin and has no interest in the Holy God That's what you're dealing with here.
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You're not dealing with some old poor creature Who you know of God would just be nice to him. He'd like to love God. That's that's not what you have
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You have men who who revel in their sin they revel in their rebellion they they love their impiety and Are doing everything they can to suppress the knowledge of God that continues to exist within them
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But in keeping with his decree to save only the predetermined elect God Regenerates only his elect and not the not elect
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Although God has said to call his elect true faith It is affirmed by Calvinist that God himself gives them the very faith
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He requires of them a faith which supposedly they willingly choose with their now re -enabled free will
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But a so -called faith which they cannot possibly refuse to have in other words
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They are new creatures and they act in accordance with their nature Just as the unregenerate man acts consistently in accordance with his nature
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So the regenerated man who is renewed in the image of Christ for some reason embraces
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Christ What a shocking idea that truly is Calvinists seem not to appreciate that a faith one can't possibly refuse
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Robbed the concept of faith of any meaning only from an Arminian free will perspective because you are defining the concept of faith
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Within a very humanistic milieu rather than a biblical milieu because what we're saying is the newly created person the person who is resurrected to spiritual life does
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Inevitably that which is consistent with his nature and since you are made as a new creature in Christ Then to cling to one's creator is indeed natural to do and this accomplishes
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God's purpose but only if you again begin with the assertion that in essence what you have to do here is
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You have to have the creation have the same kind of autonomous free will as the creator and The creation's purposes are going to be what's established not the creators purposes
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Would you ever come up with this kind of a concept nor do Calvinist acknowledge that a faith? Necessarily flowing from God's own unconditional election means that in reality the elect are saved neither by faith or through faith but by fiat
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Again confusing and ignoring the the clear distinction made in our own theology specifically in regards to both the
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God ordaining the ends and the means If you are going to say what was just said then you cannot have
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God ordaining any means Whatsoever if he ordains means and they don't really have any meaning from what was just said that that is the fundamental assertion
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That we we hear in in these words Indeed, it could be said that being eternally predestined for salvation at no point where they ever truly lost to begin with Again a gross imbalance one that is repudiated by reformed theology in the recognition that We are saved out of our sins.
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We were once children of wrath and Since we do not know the identity of the elect either which always comes up in this
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I don't know if you've noticed this over the years as we have criticized and interacted with criticisms of reformed theology, but Over and over again.
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The assumption is somehow we know the identity of the electorate something along those lines, which we do not
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We are not given that that God does not have a purpose back. God has a purpose for not giving us knowledge
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Some sort of you know, making the elect glow green type of a situation, but I Know this is a closing statement, and I know this is a closing statement of a number of hours of dialogue
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But one would and I you can tell it's being read and when it was written I don't know but you would like to think that after a
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Dialogue on the subject there would be at least a little more accuracy in the representation to the side But that hasn't meant my experience at all
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None who are among the non -elect can possibly come to faith because they have not been regenerated to desire half faith
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No, because well Because they've not been regenerate. God has to show mercy and grace to them.
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God has to refree them from their slavery to sin How about asking the question?
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Do they want to be freed from their slavery to the sin? Do they want to repent and believe and the answer is no so just so to keep throwing this back upon God Is is an odd thing, but it is the essence at least of Efflegard Smith's attack upon reformed theology and thus they remain condemned with no hope of salvation
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From the sinful condition over which they also have no control Over which they have no control.
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So this is the the old puppet marionette type thing the poor innocent people being forced to sin
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Type misrepresentation, which I I can't say because I didn't listen to it had been refuted
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But I know Larry Carino and something tells me That he probably had the exact same experience
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I did and that is you can talk to your blue -in -the -face But our minions just aren't interested in hearing what you have to say about this this particular subject
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They've got their categories and if what you say doesn't fit into it. Well, then you're just not accurately representing your own position
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We'll continue listening to this and if anybody happens to know how to pick up a phone 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1.
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We'll be right back Hello everyone.
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This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
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Thank you Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be
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James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned
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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see
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The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?
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The charges are as follows Prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring
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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org
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Just looking channel and Chris and channel mentioned. Of course the same thing. I've said all along that Unless Dr.
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Smith is an open theist almost every Assertion he's just made about Calvinist applies to his own position as well
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And that's why I've said many times open theism is the only consistent Arminian ism You have to deny to God exhaustive for knowledge of future events or all these criticisms
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You're making all you're basically saying if you're a classical Arminian who believes that God has knowledge of future events
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Is the Calvinist says God does these things for a purpose his own self -glorification There are many and says he does these things for no reason at all
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It's just sort of the way it happens and there's no purpose in it. There's no Redeeming purpose in it.
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This is how it is. And I've always found that to be an exceptionally odd Perspective but that's that's what we're dealing with.
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So we're listening to F. Lagarde Smith's closing statement here providing some responses Given the foregoing assumptions
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Calvinism holds that Christ's atoning death on the cross was never intended for the whole of sinful mankind But only for the already chosen elect
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As for Calvinism's insistent belief in limited atonement Only disingenuous sophistry can explain away the many unambiguous passages which clearly and plainly teach
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That God loved the whole simple world so much to be sent his son that whoever believes in him shall be saved
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So it's disingenuous sophistry to point out that the word whoever isn't in the text that it is
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That's one of the reasons I You know if there had been some meaningful exegesis in this book if there had been something about it
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That was worthwhile along those lines then I might have been interested in it, but I'm sorry You know
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I'm getting to that age where I realize there's only so many decades left in my life at best and and I'm wanting to I'm looking down the road knowing what do
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I need to do in my life now? That's gonna have the greatest impact when I'm gone. I Want to I want to assist the church.
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I want to embolden the church. I want to leave something behind for the church
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It's gonna be relevant for years and I'm sorry, but going back over the same well sophistry
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This is the sophistry philosophical sophistry the dr. Smith is offering is not on my plate
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That's just not what I find to be overly Worthwhile any longer. I've said it before Nuh -uh is not an apologetic
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Basically yeah, and and sadly and I realize people are impacted by nuh -uh
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I Realize I can't help people who are going to be impacted by really lousy
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Argumentation, I don't think there's anything you can do if someone can be convinced by bad argumentation irrational and illogical argumentation how am
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I supposed to help them except by engaging in irrational and illogical argumentation the other direction and If that's the case then what happened the truth, you know, it just you know, so anyways
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That's why I didn't get into it and and why I listen to this and do I have any reason to believe?
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That this this gentleman You know has really dealt seriously Exegetically with Hebrews and its presentation of the atonement and things like that.
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Well, I Don't know. I don't know I can't comment on on how much of that they got into in the debate, you know, once you take calls and and Commercials and stuff on a radio program.
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I know even doing a week's worth Really leaves you with with very very little time relatively speaking and that in fact, that's something
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I've got to talk to Steve Greg about is that if we're supposed to be doing this five days on his program and we're simulcasting it through the dividing line here
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Is he could be doing commercials? Because that's really cut down the amount of time that we actually have to discuss these things
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And so I don't know if his is a paid program so he doesn't have to do commercials I don't know if he's got to take breaks. I don't know
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We will have to discuss that and Obviously, I think
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I'm thinking off top my head here. I need to verify this don't don't write this in stone Don't get mad at me if this isn't what it is, but I think
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I Think I said April three four seven eight nine
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So that's a Thursday Friday and then seven eight nine Is a
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Monday through Wednesday, I think that's what I suggested to him I would have to go back to my email and and I don't have that in front of me right now but I think that's what we're talking about and that's even pretty tight for me because I don't get back until that's that preceding
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Saturday and Then that following Saturday. I'm taking my Islam class and Golden Gate to the
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Tempe mosque To to meet with the Muslims there and and ask questions and sort of have a field trip.
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Shall we say? And so I got enough stuff going on but we're gonna do it anyways because you know
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It doesn't need to be discussed and let's go back and that Christ died for all mankind And that he tasted death for everyone
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And that he gave himself as a ransom for all men because God does not want anyone to perish but to be saved
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You know every single one of these has a context you can string them together and ignore their context put them in a completely different Context if you want to but again, you're not you know, who are you seeking to convince?
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What are you seeking to do when you do that kind of thing? Is it just to establish a position or you actually seeking to?
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Honestly deal with the text and to and to see it as a as a whole that really is the difference
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I think between Reform theology and Armenian theology in Calvinism's cavalier and breathtaking disenfranchisement of potentially billions of lost souls
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Never has the cross of Christ been so emptied of its power Well, there you go
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And again Disenfranchising of souls so evidently
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Dr. Smith would rather have sinful rebels who hate God in charge of salvation
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He would rather have this this God up there who just hopes somebody takes him up on his offer Rather than a powerful
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God who actually changes hearts Draws his people unto himself glorifies himself accomplishes his purposes
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Evidently, that's the the more biblical view And I that's I think you're seeing a good example of why really you meaningfully have to start
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With the doctrine of God you have to start with establishing that the God that we serve has all knowledge and he created for a purpose and it wasn't just a
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You know our God did not go to Las Vegas and decide to take a shot at one of the poker tables
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Or throw some dice and hope something something came out nice that's not the biblical presentation of who
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God is and and I truly I Not gonna develop this here, but I honestly think that one of the reasons that we see such a
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Abandonment of the Old Testament as divine revelation in the
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Evangelical Church today goes back to our minion ism because honestly The the people that I hear going well,
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I'm not sure I really like that Old Testament God He's really mean and he's got wrath is like there are minions They're not reformed folks who recognize the consistency in the character of God from the
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Old Testament the New Testament They're not the ones who see that sovereignty and love are not contradictory attributes, but that they are beautifully harmonious
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Attributes they're the people who want a God who looks like a grandfather in the sky is doing you know the best he can
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Now where does Calvinism have its appeal? It's no mystery. Why so many have accepted
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Calvinism As with any false teaching one can find in Scripture a number of passages which to be unwary
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And suggest concepts never intended to be conveyed now. What is the only way that you can know?
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What a text intended to convey sound? exegesis, that's the only way you can do it and Obviously from my perspective
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Who has the advantage when it comes to the text? Well, you've listened to it.
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You've listened to my interactions with people over the years if you're a longtime listener And I just I just simply say
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It seems real obvious to me But you got to keep demonstrating universalist can find their pet passages
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So to Jehovah's Witnesses Mormons Catholics pre -millennium this rapturous preterist and even homosexual feminist a new -age reincarnationist
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Yeah, we're all in the same boat aren't we each can fight and interpret key scripture verses in support of their unique perspectives
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In Paul's epistles, especially Romans and Ephesians without question There is language speaking of predestination in election
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The dispute is not whether there's such a thing as predestination in election, but what those concepts are meant to convey at times
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Paul refers to the elect nation of Israel, which indeed was chosen Unconditionally as God's instrument to bring all nations to Christ at times
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Paul demonstrates God's sovereign intervention into the lives of individuals such as Jacob and Esau To orchestrate his eternal plan first for the
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Jews and then for the Gentiles as well Others specifically for ordained and predestined from eternity to play a role in God's master plan were individually chosen prophets priests kings
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Apostles and the Lamb of God himself chosen from the creation of the world However, let me guess the fact that God can sovereignly choose them does not mean that that's relevant to anybody else
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Than just those very specific people see he may have specific purposes. Oh, wait a minute
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No, no, no, that's caused the problem because you see they came into existence as the result of all these free choices of other creatures folks the idea that God's sovereignty can only extend to certain individuals is a mishmash of illogic again, at least the open theist is consistent at this point remember my debate with John Sanders and John Sanders admitted in that debate that when
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God created God did not know that he or I would exist he couldn't because you and I exist as the result from the
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Arminian perspective from the open theist perspective of an entire chain a long chain of Free choices that cannot be known by God if they are known by God then they are not free choices according to the open theist and So at least they're consistent at that point.
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So how can God say I have a purpose for Jeremiah? How can God say I have a purpose for Cyrus?
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How can Cyrus truly have an autonomous free will? Can't you choose not to do what
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God prophesied he was gonna do again? We're on that slippery slope that leads to open theism that destroys the process of the foundation of prophecy, etc
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Etc. And why because for dr. Smith, it's not exegesis. It's philosophy. That's the ultimate authority in What we're hearing at times
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Paul speaks of God's second elect nation born not of Abraham's blood lineage But of Abraham's faith lineage that nation of the body of Christ the church, which is the mystery hidden for ages
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But now revealed in Christ At times God speaks of his elect spiritual nation collectively as for example, there being a chosen nation a royal priesthood
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At other times God speaks of his elect people individually with God's having predestined call justified and glorified each individual citizen of that spiritual nation on the basis of what
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God or knew would be their response to this call to faith and How did
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God for Noah that sounds to me right there? He's denying open theism So he's right back into the the
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Dave hunt George Bryson quandary that they can never escape from They will not answer the same questions about their own position that they then criticize
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Calvinist for and but they end up having to hold the very same issues Virtually always
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Paul speaks of God's elect in terms of what they've been elected to be or to do Without any reference to which specific individuals were either included or excluded from God's elect
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Yeah, that'd be pretty tough to include all the individuals since it's written for the church Which means it would be in the future from the viewpoint of the writer at no time
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Crucially does Paul or any other writer suggest that God unconditionally predestined particular individuals to be saved or not?
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Yeah I mean other than you know When Paul says God chose you from the beginning for salvation I'm saved or to be included or excluded from his chosen spiritual nation the church or to be specially
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Regenerated the faith or perfectly left under condemnation or to have exclusive access to the shed blood of Christ while denying the benefits of Christ atoning blood to all others or The actual result of Christ's own blood is the perfection of those for whom it's made you might want to go that way but again
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Once you get on a roll like this is sort of hard to be overly accurate in your in your statements I Pauline teaching the idea is never who is elect versus who is not elect in any sense close to the
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Calvinist version of Predestination and unconditional election The grand irony of Calvinism's view of election is that it parallels the smug view of election hell
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But the Jews to whom Paul was addressing his writing particularly in Romans chapter 1 through 11 I'm sorry, but that is just so absurd that it that coming from the mouth of a serious scholar
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He should just be ashamed of himself at that point The Jews were more than content to bask in the glory of their election while showing a little concern for the non elect
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Gentiles If you listen carefully to Calvinist argument It inevitably emphasizes the wondrous love of God for the elect while woefully ignoring the implications for the unfortunate not elect
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Really with an attitude reminiscent of the Jews Calvinist take passages intended to encourage Those who become members of God's elect by their own freely chosen faith response to Christ and use those very passages to limit
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God's grace And mercy whereas Paul speaks of the potter and the clay to demonstrate God's sovereign authority to expand his grace
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Calvinist twist Paul's argument in order to justify a system in which God's grace has only limited application if indeed it has any meaning at all
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For those of you who are confused what he's saying there is he's saying? Well Romans 9 is all about God's right to expand his grace outside of outside of Israel to the
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Gentiles, which of course is all true But that misses of course the statement
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Of Romans 9 and we of course have a little have we relinked to that? I think is that is that on the new website the
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Romans 9 thing it needs to be if it's not in the resources thing or stuff like that, maybe Micah knows but the
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Romans 9 Discussion that we posted and the 30 -minute that actually 27 minute
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Presentation of the gospel without theological language those both need to be on the front page the 27 minute
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I believe is is still posted there on the main page I can't at the moment think of exactly where it is
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But I think the other one may still be as part of the the vintage site Yeah that needs to well it may be but it needs to be on the link needs to be on the front page so the people can
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Find that so that so they can take a listen to that you know listen to what we presented on Romans 9 tell me who is actually dealing with the text and Who isn't dealing with the text?
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Whereas Paul speaks of God's offer of love for the whole world Calvinist of the boldness to tell us that God hated most of the world before he created them as in Jacob He loved but he saw he hated
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Who doesn't like to think we're the chosen one? Even those of us who reject Calvinism are comforted by the benefits to be accorded us as God's elect
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But to insist that a lost and dying world cannot possibly come into the fold of God's grace because they were passed over in the nether
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Reaches of eternity before they were ever born or sinned or heard about a supposedly loving
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Christ who died for others But not for them is a twisted perversion of scripture, and that's a twisted perversion of Calvinism So the question becomes why is dr.
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Smith willing to engage in straw man? Argumentation when he surely has been corrected over and over again.
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What's the what's the beef? Why why even assume that we have knowledge of who the elect are?
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Anything along those lines at all. I there's no reason for it The it's it's not that we have not with clarity
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Expressed our opinion our viewpoint our understanding So why do this?
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I I I don't understand it There's no reason to but it is It certainly gets the the blood flowing for the
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Arminian who who doesn't want to actually engage with Calvinism in a meaningful fashion Perhaps more than with any other belief system
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Calvinist and reformed protagonist have formulated a highly refined debate Portfolio offering plausible answers to any challenge any text and any troubling questions asked of them
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But I humbly suggest that they get so caught up in their own esoteric trees That they can no longer see the obvious forest of biblical teachings staring them in the face
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When all things pertaining to life and salvation have been predetermined before the beginning of time
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The central themes of scripture lose all meaning whether faith repentance obedience rebellion evangelism judgment or even so in other words unless you're a libertarian and Unless you do not have a
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God who has a divine decree and a God cannot be Glorifying himself in perfection anything like that Then you're just not dealing with anything biblically
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I listen to that and I just want to go wait just a minute now You were the one that was just a few minutes ago saying
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That Mormons have proof text and Jehovah's Witnesses have proof text and all these cult groups have proof text and if you're gonna follow that Argument then scripture isn't something that's knowable
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So, how how are you you coming to these kind of conclusions? You're saying that we're all just sitting here playing a great big game
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What he's saying is that There are all these clear biblical teachings about free will
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That if we just accept them then we would not be so focused upon the little tree
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But we'd see the whole but you Always point out that one should never ever use an argument that can't then be turned around and used back against you
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And one can easily respond to that and say, you know what? That's just your little proof text that you're running off to you say it's clear
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So obviously obviously I've already made the case that scripture isn't something that can be knowable obviously,
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I feel like He's describing himself. Obviously. I think our minions are the ones who are so focused upon their libertarian free will they miss the entire
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Aspect of the sovereignty of God and the glory of God and the reason creation everything else That's obviously a way to prove that though is to go to the scriptures themselves mercy and grace by radically redefining the obvious Calvinism makes a mockery of the very scripture at top so highly and thereby undermines the sovereignty of God which it so loudly proclaims
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As such Calvinism is not simply a unique stream of Christian thinking over which academics and theologians might comfortably disagree
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But is in fact false teaching Because Calvinism distorts what God reveals about his own character
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Because it perverts man's nature and the cause of sin and because it twists the plan of salvation out of any recognizable biblical form
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I am compelled to conclude that the doctrine of Calvinism is a heresy of the highest order Well, there you go heresy of the highest order
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I I'm you know Tempted to ask dr. Smith if he as a result me believes that Calvinists are lost
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And especially someone such as myself an unrepentant Calvinist who finds his arguments utterly vacuous and biblically insulting
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If that means that I am a heretic as well Well, that is not a question that I will be able to get any answers to because I didn't do the program 877 -753 -3341 let's quickly
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Fit John here in hi John. Hi. How are you? Dr. Why doing good? I one quick observation on something that that he had said before I get to the indulgence thing and that is if billions are being excluded by Calvinism and Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the
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Word of God What about the billions that are excluded because they never hear the gospel and on the
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Mayan? Yeah, and didn't God have a purpose and they'd have to say no God had no purpose
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God just looks at him and goes. Oh shucks. That's a shame. And I just look at that and go
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Wow What what a viewpoint that is, but I didn't do the program so I couldn't point that out
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So anyways, we have only have a few minutes. So let's your questions on indulgences. Yeah, I had a question about this.
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I Understand status posse. Oh, you're you're infusing grace You're changing the person and if you go to purgatory you're being changed
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But if they just then turn around and grant you the benefit of some thing who had more works than they needed
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How does that? Ontologically make a change to you Well, that's a good question and the whole issue of indulgences and purgatory has become a bit of a troubling issue for modern
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Roman Catholicism and Look if they're going to be rehabilitating Martin Luther soon Who knows what
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Rome's gonna look like, you know five years from now or ten years from now? I I have no way of knowing and I I a part of me is
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Tempted to feel sorry for Roman Catholic apologists, but that part's very very small and doesn't speak very loudly who are trying to defend a system that is is malleable and Changeable as as Rome is so it's not difficult to understand the concept of indulgences as they were defined and defended for hundreds of years
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But it's this new idea of this this You know nicer better Form of purgatory.
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It's not as offensive to Americans. It maybe doesn't even involve time and maybe doesn't involve suffering
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I mean sure we've seen all these Saints showing up bathed in fire and suffering and you know
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That was just you know a couple hundred years ago now People are playing with this idea of purgatory being instant and and all this stuff
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And so all the discussions of indulgences how long they were the amount of time you get out of purgatory
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I was as a you know, that's still an issue in you know, southern Italy. That's still an issue in Mexico But it's not nearly as much an issue in Rome or in New York as as it once was certainly and so How do you put together this idea of of changing you ontologically and making you pleasing to God?
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With the idea of the imputation of some merit from a saint I haven't a clue doesn't make any sense to me.
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But you see if you don't do that, you don't get to build st. Peter's You know, I'm That's is there any question honestly because I could just hear the
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Roman Catholic. Oh, that's not fair. Is there any question that indulgence money
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Was used to build st. Peter's in Rome and the answer is no
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Historically, that's what happened. And so what Rome does
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Rome? I mean look at the papacy today the foundations of the papacy Have been washed away by history the donation of Constantine the pseudo -isidore and decretals these things were absolutely necessary To the growth and establishment of the papacy.
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They're now admitted by Roman Catholics To have been historical frauds the foundations washed away
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But the building is still floating there in midair and isn't it pretty and The same thing when you look at her theology of indulgences and purgatory we can see historically how these things
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Developed and what they meant in the context which they existed the context disappeared.
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Now, what are you gonna do with the dogma? That's this is another one of the wonderful reasons to not believe in Any concept that denies sola scriptura because once man starts to infallibly define these things and then circumstances change
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Now, what are they gonna do? Well now they have to try to fill these things with meanings that were not a part of the concept originally and it very often requires
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Really just a whole lot of I'm just gonna close my eyes and not even think about this aspect or that aspect
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I'm just gonna spiritualize this and so on and so forth and I don't know how a person holds it together
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I really honestly don't but Obviously, there are very very few people who are challenged to hold these things together at least on that level
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But I think for how this occurs, I mean I Haven't seen any explanation for how what occurs how that changes you by Obtaining the merits of a thing
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I can't I don't know or you like partially you and partially the thing No, but there's some sort of transaction there and I it
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I guess maybe someone say well It's a matter of the infusion of that grace that is earned
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By the excess works of that saint or something I suppose because I mean they speak of the the grace of Christ being earned on the cross being
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Given to you. So I suppose that's how it works. I don't know. It's certainly outside of any biblical realm
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John But hey, thanks for your phone call today. We're out of time Thanks for listening to the dividing line today and We'll be back on Thursday.
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Remember we didn't change our clocks. So you shouldn't either. See you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or write us at p .o
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That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks