Apologia Radio | James White Interview

Greetings and welcome to Apology Radio. My name is James White and along with me, I'm about to do a Jeff Durbin thing, but I really can't because how can. Have you thought yet? How can we call you Joy the girl?

Because you're now Mrs. I know I mean, there's so much gravitas.

There's got a phrase we have to find something a little bit better. Yeah, I think now there's. I've always been the girl. Yeah, but now there's like an upgrade. It's like a rite of passage type.

You know, yeah, and then the next thing is Mama, yeah, and and then once it's grandma, it doesn't matter anymore. So anyways.

You're wondering all of us one day. We'll just be hunched over the microphones.

The original gang getting together for a very low energy Reunion. A lot of fun, but anyways You're probably wondering what in the world are my doing here again? Well, I'm sitting in and I'm sitting in because Jeff has a lot of folks who love him and who are willing to do anything to to fill in when he has need and He has need right now.

Most of you have read the updates and stuff. I don't know what a new update would be because I'm not sure when this is gonna air but I'm basically The director of Alpha Omega Ministries and I'm going out of town later this week as I'm gonna be doing a lot.

I've been looking at my travel schedule for the next year and it's just simply insane. But I said, you know what? Let me let me sit in and and Joy's back. And so we have certain common People that we know Because I've sat in here not this particular one, but the old one with you and summer and In fact, I think the last time was so long ago.

It's sort of like I'm not loved anymore, but We did that.

What's the thing where you do the song lyrics thing? Oh, we did the um. What do you. Oh my gosh. But the thing where you like listen to the music and you like write a part of a movie for it or whatever.

Yeah, and do you remember what I played? John Denver, yeah, because that drives summer crazy. She doesn't like it I know. No no and she was mocking him horribly and came up with theological errors and everything else.

Which are a lot he was into EST or whatever the stuff was called. So, you know, I trained her well. But it's been a long time. So I know we'll have to have you on. I think we were talking about it. I'm still semi relevant.

They're just not as relevant as he used to be. Super relevant. Yeah, so anyways, so here we are and there's lots of things to talk about but. Obviously first and foremost Congratulations to you. Thank you.

I did that 36 years ago. Yeah.

But I was 19, can you imagine that that would have been like 10 years ago for me? Yeah. Wow, I was 19.

She was 18. We were both 18. We got engaged.

How long were you engaged for?

Hmm well June to. It's right out of year, okay. Yeah, so we were both real young. Yeah. Wow. I made up my mind early and. Yeah, I said that's the one for me and I've told the story before and Summer certainly knows this but I actually fell for her sister first.

Mm-hmm because she's an identical twin, right? But I figure if they're identical twins, then that's that's fair, right? You've also.

There's a weird like loophole there. Yeah, you did fall in love with both of them in a weird but not really, you know, yeah.

I didn't even know she was a twin right. I first saw her. Like wow, that's you know when you're a sophomore in high school, that's most beautiful thing ever seen on the planet. So but she didn't know I existed.

And then a couple weeks later. I come into Sunday school and there's two of them. And of course Kelly my wife is the. In most identical twins, you've got a more outgoing one. Okay more retiring one and Kelly's the quieter one.

Okay, which works better for me? Yeah, I think so. But then again Shelly has never I still don't think she knows who I am. This doesn't. I don't fit the parameters so anyways, but yeah, that was 36 years ago, so.

So if you want to increase your odds go for identical twins, you know, I had not really thought about that way.

The reality is you want to increase your odds make sure you know history. Oh Well, you didn't know about this. I shouldn't do this because what it's gonna kill me. Oh gosh. Well, I I love telling this story, but Kelly is I was like, oh don't do it.

But I.

Have for all the young men in the audience. Well, then this is this is. I have a 100 foolproof way of getting the woman of your dreams because it worked for me. Here's here's here's what I did. I'm not gonna give you all the backstory.

I've been trying to get her attention for literally a year and a half. Okay. Finally I invited her out to Peter Piper Pizza. We are in high school. Yeah, and that's where everybody went after church on Sundays went to this big megachurch.

Megachurch as in 20 ,000 members. Yeah, I can never find more than 7 ,000 at a time, but they were on. It was type of church where you had to show up personally and submit your own death certificate in triplicate.

To be able to get off the membership rolls. Oh, wow. That's that's serious membership.

Anyway, and So I finally got the nerve up to ask her out and and I've always been able to read her face. Immediately. It was like one of those things where you've got the message that scrolls across it says.

He's been trying to get my attention.

And.

So.

So she said yes, and so on March 17th 1981 Wow. We went to Peter Piper Pizza. And so this is how you do it. Because it worked perfectly.

And Peter Piper Pizza is still in business, so you could duplicate this exactly. You could you could repeat this exactly.

From the time I ordered the pizza. Picked it up. We ate the pizza and we left the entire evening at Peter Piper Pizza, I narrated for her in.

Perfect.

Chronological detail names dates everything the entirety of the Battle of Midway.

I.

Did and her response was good. We were married 15 months later, okay.

So She she told I think she told summer once that she had a soft spot for geeks, okay smart guys, you know. And so the fact that without notes or anything else I could give Commander Sam Waldron from the Enterprise did this and I mean, do you know which four Japanese carriers are sunk at the Battle of Midway?

I bet you do not. I don't. The Akagi, the Kaga, the Tsuru, and the Hiryu. Mm-hmm. Well, and we lost the Yorktown sunk by a Japanese submarine I -68. That was 37 years ago that I heard that story so it has stuck well and That's what that's what did it.

So, you know, I know your history. Well, yeah, I think that um.

I was recently just helping my friend study for her licensing exam for psychology and What there was like a research study that was done that shows that men typically are more like single-minded passionate.

And that tends to be more of a male characteristic. And so I think it makes sense that females would find that attractive like a like sort of a weird just like Weird like laser focus on something and yours is it was that.

Honestly, you have a lot of laser.

A little bit wider focus than most but history is always Always been there and so you don't have to use Midway. I mean, I think the story of Munster I don't know if you've ever heard the story of Munster.

Mm-hmm. I've been teaching a church history class for about a year and a half and That would be a really cool special study.

For apology at some point. Oh, yeah would be. Let's do it.

The craziest story from church history ever known is Munster. Hmm. I'm gonna be visiting Munster.

In.

January February late January early February. I'm teaching in Russia. Well, I'm hoping I'm teaching in Russia because I mean there's stuff going on with Russia right now in Ukraine. Yeah rest that stuff on who knows but I'm supposed to be teaching in Russia and then on the way back I'm gonna go through Munster because Munster is where the Institute for New Testament Studies is where the vast majority This is the Nessie Island 28th edition Greek New Testament.

It's put together in Munster. So Wow, so it has been sort of the center of New Testament manuscripts for quite some time now in the olden days. It was microfilm. Now it's super high quality digital. Wow stuff like that.

That's cool. It's very very cool so I'm gonna be going through there because the PhD I'm working on has to do with what's called CB GM and I'm gonna be interviewing some people and stuff like that, but the coolest thing about Munster is if you go on Google Earth, okay and Find the Cathedral.

I think it's st. Lambert's Cathedral in Munster. Go down to Street View and Swing around it looking up at the spire on one side. You will find three cages Hanging from the side of the church spire. Okay, and they're the size to hold one human being person.

Okay, they have been hanging there since 1534 1535 1535 hmm, and they originally had bodies in them. Wow, and they've been there for well Honestly the story of Munster. I am stunned that Hollywood has not picked it up because you could simply Tell the story as it happened without the slightest bit of embellishment.

Wow, and it would be a mega hit.

Well, so that's what we're gonna have you on Sheologians for because you know how we do our story. Pretty you're gonna have to come tell us that story. Pretty cool. That's just that's gonna happen and and now there's no competition anymore.

By my doing that for Sheologians and then doing it, you know one night.

Yeah.

Here at the studio right? Yeah apology. Yeah, because the other big announcement is you're stuck with me now, right? I'm an official. Is it do you call yourselves apology ins? Oh Well, not I.

Mean, I think. Off-handedly, but mostly just a member a member.

Yeah, I'm a plain old member as Luke said yesterday when it was announced we're sort of we're sort of using. Because how do I I can't sneak in the back door of a church no and when when Jeff has said numerous times how.

Influential. Mm-hmm. I've been over his life in the development of his theologians like that, though. We have differences because there's been other there's been other sources and you know what funny the funny thing is since the announcement was made last night the Internet's gone and saying that James White is a member of apology, you know.

The amazing thing is that people Assume that if you join a church That means you you have absolutely identical opinions with everybody else, right? Nobody in their church that way, but evidently yeah, I'm supposed to be that way and it's like look Jeff knows where we have differences the point is on.

The fundamentals of the gospel and the focus of what we're doing. We've always been on the same page. Yeah, you know how many times I've had him fill in for me on the dividing line, right? He's had me fill in here.

I've preached the church, etc, etc. I've even lost track of how many times I've preached at apology over the years. Yeah, it's been a lot. Yeah, so I can't exactly just waltz in the back and sit back in the corner, right?

Because when I do a line for him to people. So the term Luke used yesterday we're using his term scholar in residence. That's which which basically means someone who's had a whole lot of schooling and just sort of hangs around, right?

So it's not an official thing, but it is a recognition that yeah, I want to be a resource. For Jeff and Luke and Zach and have their backs and do teaching and stuff like that. And we don't know what it all is gonna gonna mean it sort of happened fairly quickly.

But right hey here we are so we can do those types of things and so I can come on to geologians and tell the most fascinating church history story ever and You're all gonna sit there going. You're making this.

No, I'm not I could tell it in the driest Historical way possible and you'd sit there and go no way. Well, then we need that story told. It may end up being a little bit longer in my episode it just doing it in the in the class was I Had to go fairly quickly because it's just stunning.

It really is a stunning stuff. There's lots of cool stories. There's a there's stories of people that know about, you know Cyprian's letters to the Christians who were enslaved in the mines during the Imperial persecution.

I mean, that's that's the that's a tearjerker type stuff. Yeah, most of us have never even heard of things like that. But this story is just like this could never have happened and yet it did and it didn't happen all that long ago.

So well, I'll just leave you hanging on that. We'll do we'll do cool stuff like that, but I got to preach last night and one of my favorite one of my favorite studies that just To me it's just so important to be able to see the relationship of the Harmony of the scriptures and the testimony of the deity of Christ and I got to talk a little bit about Christmas before Jeff.

Did so I thought right that was pretty much of a coup. I think personally. Yeah. No, I think that was a. That was a the best way you could have entered into membership Is by joining this weird unspoken competition, well, it's not really unspoken either.

That's true. Well, how long has he had his tree up? I mean, it's been a while. It's been a while, but they have so.

There's another family at Apologia that they duel with to get their tree up first. Yeah, okay.

Let's just make sure I'm telling Jeff right now. Don't do. I once went to a church Where the pastor literally has a Christmas tree in his office. All.

Year. Oh, see that's cheating. You could that would be cheating. That's not just cheating. Okay, it's not Christmas. If you don't stop doing Christmas, that's right, that's right you have to end it. There was something.

So anyhow, so yeah here here we are and then I show up and then I disappear for two weeks. Right, you know, it's just the way it's gonna be this year cuz I'm gonna be flying. Oh my you get the frequent flyer miles.

I mean good or it is good and.

You know the one thing that people caught hold of last night that they said a lot of was I had talked to Jeff about this and it was. You know, you know, I will I will give the greetings of the elders and the people of Apologia Church.

Oh, yeah Saints all around the world. That's cool as I go and speak so super cool. They're like we like that. Mm-hmm that so you can go you can go now go do that.

And it'll give us all a chance to get to know your wife better, too. There won't be a line to meet you so we can line up. She's put up with me for 36 years she knows the true secret behind the man.

Sadly, yeah, that could be in of everything. But then again somebody else, you know does too right? Yes, that's true.

Well, and so we did. I told you that when we did this episode that I would probably just like.

Questions. And I listened to the episode that you and summer did and I learned stuff even there.

Yeah, so we did the interview and so I'm just gonna ask you some questions. You know, I don't get to ask back. I mean you can ask me questions, too.

If you want, it's not like I don't have a computer in front of me.

You know, whatever your mind. Which is probably more than mine. Well, so you were talking about Christmas. Oh, yeah. And you last night you also talked about Being a grandparent specifically, but I thought maybe you could give.

So this time of year is all about. It's like a celebration of family and being together. So I thought maybe you could give some good like biblical perspective on spending time with family. And except my family's all.

Spread out, right? Yeah, I do not know what grandparents did before FaceTime. Yeah, seriously. Back when I was a kid, you know, we would get these handwritten letters from grandma. Mm-hmm in Kansas and we'd have to sit there while mom and dad read the hand.

Yeah.

Thing from grandma in Kansas who we only saw for a few days during the summer when we drove out there on. That's all we did for summer vacation right out there and my dad would work on her house and stuff like that.

So spread out families. You know, we've we've had Everybody fairly close to home for a number of years and so Christmas and Thanksgiving and stuff like that have been big things. But man, we're all we're all spread out.

Yeah, and It makes you really appreciate what you did have when everybody was right. But you know this year.

As.

You know summer and Eric and the kids are supposed to be coming down and and I checked last night to make sure that they Were able to be here for the apology is her. Oh, uh-huh, which of course they were planning.

Oh good. So good because that's that'll be really exciting. Yeah to have us all at the same place at the same time. But what we want to do this year is Sort of demonstrate what a what a distinctly Christian celebration is.

Because there's a lot of folks who celebrate Christmas, but they're not believers right so Shouldn't there be a difference right because this is not a commanded celebration. I mean, I know a lot of folks that I Know folks.

I didn't know folks until I entered into the Reformed Baptist world, but I know folks who will not celebrate great. Okay. If if someone I can especially see that if you came out of some kind of Saturnalia worship or something right and if you have a background in that, okay, you know, and there are other people that just Read the Puritans and go that's Roman Catholic and I can't do it.

Yeah, okay fine. And and so I'm not gonna force something on somebody and every I think every local body needs to make a decision as to how They're going to handle this these types of situations and you know, most evangelical churches don't even give it a thought.

You know, it's just you know. Bring out the decorations bring out, you know, bring the camp of walk the camel through during the Christmas musical. Yeah clean up afterwards, whatever.

You know.

That kind of thing and they use it in another way for me. What I've tried to do and I was for example. This is what I was trying to do that one year and I'm sure summer has told you. When I I chose to read the Christmas story from the Geneva Bible and I I got to the Geneva Bible's rendering of the word cradle or manger manger as creche and.

The whole thing fell apart at that point. It fell apart when summer fell off of the couch.

I.

Really sort of ruined the whole effect. And so I haven't always been successful, right. And summer's to blame for a number of those failures.

But.

But I have tried and. And I think one of the ones that was fairly recent ones that everybody in the family said they really enjoyed I actually brought home one of my digital projectors and I did a presentation.

I think on Christmas Eve on the wall You ready for this is almost as bad as Midway. Because this is Christmas. Okay, but I did a pre I projected The little manuscript p52, which is probably the oldest Fragment of the New Testament we possess that some people argue some others are older but generally agree that it's probably the oldest fragment of the New Testament we possess and I somehow Maybe somewhat torturously connected The history of that little fragment through to the subject of Christmas, okay, it was it was a bit of a stretch.

But they actually found it really interesting because it wasn't your standard, right?

Something new our.

Wise men stuff. And so they really seem to enjoy that. The one real major bomb was when the kids were younger. When I decided to make one of their primary gifts a. You can buy these. You can buy things like International Justice Ministry Barnabas fund voice the martyrs type thing you can like sponsor.

Oh, yeah child in a in a difficult area provide Bibles, you know type of stuff like that. And so you can give certificates to people, you know, so in your name. So many Bibles distributed in this difficult area type of a thing and.

Yeah, they weren't a fan. They were like.

Little bit too young at that point. I don't know but that may be one of the least memorable attempts that I made. Yeah, she may not remember it. That's that's the really frightening and sad part about it.

But but I tried and But I do try to you know Emphasize the The real, you know, I hate using the phrase meaning of the season. But if you don't really believe in the Trinity the deity of Christ the inspiration of Scripture.

There's really no reason to be doing any of this other than to help the economy out anyway, right? Yeah. Because really what we're saying it's it's does not surprise me that the world mocks Christmas every Christmas because we're literally saying that the God that created these hundreds of billions of galaxies with hundreds of billions of stars in each one of the hundreds of billions of galaxies and holds all this together by the word of his power actually became flesh and lived 2 ,000 years ago in a little backwards corner of of The Roman Empire and never traveled more than a certain number of miles any one direction and yet that was our God.

Yeah, and look from the world's perspective as Paul puts it A Maria from which we get more on foolishness. Yeah, absolute foolishness. And so I get that. But it does, you know, I want to make sure that at least my family.

You know when I talked a little bit of Isaiah 9 last night at Apologia We normally spend some time on that because that a child to be born Son given I think there's a whole lot behind that. I really really do.

Unfortunately, I got derailed last night because almost nobody at Apologia loves Handel's Messiah as much as I do so I was.

Well, why don't you give your recommendation for? Handel's Messiah right now. Oh my goodness.

Look, I if you're not a classical music lover, okay, I get it. But the reality is Handel's Messiah is is almost miraculous when you look at the period of time in which he wrote it just a just a matter of weeks the music is enduring and he He didn't do the words the words were provided by someone else, but they're all scriptural text.

They're just that someone had called these scriptural texts in a certain order that that basically tell the Christ story. So part of the Messiah is sort of the Christmas part of the Messiah and then you've you know.

Everybody knows the hallelujah chorus, right? But that's actually the Easter portion right the resurrection resurrection period and so it is. It has been in constant performance Since Handel wrote it.

It's the only piece of music that I know of that that is the case and It transports me it is the most beautiful stuff and What I want to do and have not had the opportunity of doing I've got to find some place I I may just have to set time aside next year.

Find a sing-along because there are places in majors normally in major cities. Well, they do sing-alongs. I have my own score. I sing bass. Bass or baritone depending on what they need. So you're ready.

I'm ready. I know the bass part pretty well my voice isn't what it once was but You know Kelly and I sang in a singing group at North Phoenix Baptist Church, really? We were both in what was called liberation.

We had our own band. We traveled and we won it was the year is the year before she came in but liberation won the Small group category at the National Christian Music Festival in Estes Park, which is the big.

Wow the big things. So we weren't half bad. We actually.

Could could sing it. That's really cool. Fun. Yeah.

So and in fact the Wednesday night before we got married Kelly and I sang a duet at North Phoenix. We sang a song called I am willing Lord, okay, and it's I'm willing Lord all the way through but then we changed the last chorus and A clasped hands.

We are willing. Oh.

So.

About five years ago. I got this thought across my mind. They recorded all of those things for the homebound ministry. Oh, and so I contacted North Phoenix of well when Richard Jackson who was the pastor there left.

We gave all that stuff to him. So I contacted the Richard Jackson Evangelistic Foundation in Texas and Lo and behold, they had the tape from that Wednesday night. So do you have it? I have it. Oh, oh my gosh.

Now, of course, it was the recording quality, right? Isn't isn't best from 1982.

But yeah, I've got a recording. That's cool. Yeah, that's really cool. So I really yeah.

I really want to do a sing-along with the Messiah. That'd be awesome.

I mean, I know it gets it gets performed right, but they do community sing-alongs.

And then anybody who wants to come along and it ends up being a huge choir and you just bring your own music and that.

Would be quite an experience. I would think especially with everyone singing.

Well, especially when you hit not just the holy of course, but there are a couple of the songs the numbers in there that are just They'll transport you. Yeah, there's a it's not like listening to most contemporary Christian music.

Yeah, it's just timeless. But anyways, that's what that's another thing to add to your your your Christmas would be some really. And dig into some some of the deepest Trinitarian theology I have ever found in music is Christmas hymns.

They're normally the stanzas that never get played on the radio, right? Yeah, or sung. Yeah, but when you look at Some of the major Christmas hymns and get to like that never sung. Third verse. Yeah, you'll have.

Hypostatic. It does seem like that's where all the really deep theological like why would they scrub that out of?

Because it doesn't.

Like even some of the hymns that you might sing at a regular church just modernized. They some of the best parts of it have been taken out because that's frequently not the best rhyming, right? Yeah, because for playability or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah, you're trying to say something. So yeah. Yeah.

So anyways, those are just some some things you don't have to you don't have to skip the you know, the gift-giving and stuff I've spent. You know, I've been I've been quote-unquote Santa Claus for my family for a long.

Oh, yeah.

Summer has told me that you take your gift game. Seriously. I take my gift game very seriously and.

I've upped it this year for for a few folks. My son-in-law Eric get his early. So yeah, he's already he already knows. But I've got I've got four grandkids coming yeah, and This will be the first time that Cadence and Waylon have been to our house.

They are going to be disappointed. Oh, really? I can tell you right now the look on their face. They're gonna they're gonna walk in they're gonna look around a little bit and come back like. It's so small.

As our house is, you know, they've got two floors. They've got so much more space under roof than we do. And there's no well I was gonna say there's no grass outside to go play in but I've been to their house and there's no grass in there either so.

But yeah, yeah, it's they're gonna be disappointed.

So we've got to do a good job with the tree or something except for I heard that. I heard that your wife. When I think when either Janie or just Clementine I think just Clementine was in and your wife set up like this whole little fort In the backyard.

She like dragged out.

We're gonna put that back up, but the last time that they were there We put a little thing up in the backyard. The problem is you have to walk over the rocks to get to it, right?

Yeah.

But yeah. We we're gonna try to do something like that and I'll probably put some lights on it and stuff like that. I'm gonna have to work hard when I get back from these trips because I've got a bunch.

Yeah. And still do everything else I'm supposed to do so, but it's gonna be great to have the grandkids there and obviously for us. That's the whole thing is is the you know. My parents were were very poor.

Mm-hmm. And yet we had the same Christmas tree from the time I was four. I Think they got rid of that tree about ten years ago. Wow, that's how long. Okay. I dig. I mean so much so that the you put the little things in and then we had to put Toothpicks in to hold it because the holes had worn out over the years.

So everything was starting to do. Sort of like human bodies. But we had the same tree and and they would you know. Always make sure that that there was something something there for us, even though we were we were poor as church mice.

Yeah, and so I've just loved seeing how cadence and Waylon and Clementine in January have come together. Yeah, I mean Waylon's relationship with with Janie. Oh, yeah.

He's like her little caretaker.

Yes, and cadence mothers all of them and she and Clementine hiding in closets doing girl talk. Yeah, pink lava lips, I mean seriously and everybody knows about Clementine and her. I Can't wait for Clementine says it's I know.

Yeah, she's gonna have to wait till Clementine's 18 to publish it. But even by then it should be pretty interesting. Yeah, so we've got to keep all this stuff but You know cadence It just doesn't know how much she means to me.

She is there's there's really something special about that young lady. She is. I'm looking forward to having all of them. But I've got to get some super duper cool guy toys for Waylon because that poor guy.

Yeah, I know I mean, I mean Eric does everything he can to do the testosterone thing. Yeah, he is surrounded by a lot of girls, right?

He needs some guns. Well, and there's something there's something special about your Grandson your first grandson. Yeah, it's different than the granddad. He's.

1 ,000 Boy. Yeah. Oh, yeah all the way. That's good. Anyways here here everyone tunes in to find out and I'm.

Okay, it's a side that people don't usually get to See of you. I don't even know how long we've been going. I don't need you need to head out sometime soon. We have time for one more question, of course, of course, it's also again.

Sorry to disappoint anyone. It's really not Like the most. Right, but I asked summer. So I guess in theology into that last one you did the incarnation you've been he knows what he's doing. I can ask him anything and he'll turn it Into a theological talk.

It's great. It's a talent. So I asked summer this I was just gonna ask you what is your last meal? Oh.

You mean as if I was going to have a last meal I was gonna say the last meal. I just had is really boring. It was two eggs with cheese in a low-carb.

Tortilla wrap. Well, so if you if you are on death row, yeah the death row. I mean, yeah. Yeah, I know.

That's that's a good question.

Streets of New York.

No.

No, I do streets of New York Spaghetti, I do love their their pasta, but I just do that to do some carbo loading before long rides and like that. It's not because it's my favorite thing in the world. My dad's turkey and dressing Summer's probably told you about I've got pictures of When when we get that turkey out and Thanksgiving Christmas, we used to anyways when everybody lived here.

Mm-hmm. I don't know how he did it because I've tried and failed miserably. Okay, two to Replicate his his dressing, but I don't know how he got that much dressing into one turkey. Oh, I mean, it's almost physically impossible to create the volume of dressing By stuffing it that there's just there's not enough room in there.

I'm sorry. I don't know how he did. Well, he put it all around it, too. Okay, but our favorite part of Thanksgiving and Christmas would be once it's coming out snatching the especially Overcooked portions.