The Monument Debate

Welcome to the Monument Debate and Why History Matters

Welcome to the conversations that matter podcast. My name is John Harris. We are gonna talk today about the monument debate in the United States of America. In fact, I actually do hesitate. I should clarify to call this a monument debate because it's not really a debate so much as it is.

Those who would want to take down symbols representations of heroes. Artifacts of history from the nation's past or local histories past in the nation. They are winning. They are winning all over the place and most of the time local municipalities are taking down these monuments.

It seems like without any kind of vote. Or if it is a vote, it's very quick. The public doesn't know about it. And before the public is informed the monument is gone. That's happening on the state level.

It's happening on like I said local level and then of course the events that get the most coverage are when mobs protesters vandals etc go into a community with the Intention of taking down a historical artifact or a symbol of some kind and so they're doing that of course Illegally, and they're not being punished very at least I haven't seen examples of people being published punished very often for it so those who are like myself who Love history and hate seeing some of these things taken down.

We we feel at least like we're in the minority now. We may not be but the conservative movement if you want to even call it that I hesitate to even Call it that anymore but the the opposition to the left whatever that movement is is really split on this and I'm gonna explain that debate as best I can to you and why that dynamic exists.

And I also want to talk about as Christians and and then conservatives but Christians first. How should we think about what's going on? What about people that have flaws because everyone does every I mean as Christians.

We believe every single person has sin, right? So what about honoring? People and events or at least marking that that an event has taken place in the history of a region. How should we? Navigate this and I'll say this right off the top.

I don't think There's a silver bullet in all of this. In other words, I don't think the you can find chapter and verse. This is what the Bible says. You shouldn't remove The Robert E Lee monument because it honors the Lord, right?

You're not gonna find that verse Specifically stated in Scripture, but what we do have our principles like most things. We have principles that we can work off of and I think we can come to a pretty solid Understanding at the end of this video that what's going on is wrong big picture not Big picture ever everything I've seen at least has been wrong the way it's been handled.

The reasons for getting rid of some of these things just about now. Maybe you're gonna try to come up with well, look at this specific monument. Don't you think this one should be removed? I'm I haven't seen everything but everything that I have seen I'm pretty comfortable saying is has been evil at least in the motivations being used to pull these things down.

Now that doesn't mean some people with good intentions are behind it supporting it. But I think overall there are those who brought this conversation up those who want these things taken down their intentions are not good.

And so we're gonna get into some of that. But before we jump into some of that, I do want to give you some announcements. Announcement number one. My wife and I actually went away for the weekend and had a great time first in Tennessee.

We were in Nashville for about a I guess two days total and really enjoyed ourselves there one of the things this is actually related a little bit to this monument debate, but one of the things I noticed about Nashville is Those who are new and up-and-coming in Nashville country music singers people that are trying to be country music singers.

They kind of have a respect for the history of their genre. In other words when you're walking down that that main road in Nashville where there's all these, you know, honky-tonks and there's All sorts of tourists touristy stores, which I went in a few of those.

Actually. I got some some gator boots. I love cowboy boots. And I only usually own a pair or two and and every single pair that I've had has been given to me except one. This was I think the first time I actually tried on a pair.

Actually second time there there when I was 16 I had bought this really cheap pair for like 60 bucks or 40 bucks or something in an outlet in El Paso, Texas. I still remember though. They were actually very comfortable boots, but I ran right through those but but this pair that I got from Nashville is alligator and Those as those who wear cowboy boots know alligator boots are very expensive generally and I got these for a steal.

I mean it was just it was a great price and they they look great. They feel good. And and so I told my wife I said these are my birthday and Christmas presents, right? But I have now my brown pair of boots that were that was given to me by my uncle and I have Have these alligator boots which are more dark and some of you probably don't care about that.

But it's related a little bit to what we're talking about because to me there's there's symbolism behind even some of the things I wear. Boots like that. I mean I have two pairs of boots. I have one. I'll tell you this I have one pair of ostrich boots.

They're like 800 bucks one of my uncles Gave them to me right before he died and I I mean I wore these things for years and now they have holes in them. I can't wear them. I still have them. There's sentimental value attached to these things.

They remind me of my uncle. I did so many things in those boots. I mean they've been across the country with me. I have another pair that I can still wear from another uncle on the other side of the family.

Who also died right after he gave me the boots and their sentimental attachment that I have and where my uncle's perfect no. Were they always doing the right thing when they were wearing their boots? I don't know but they remind me of my uncle and both of them and and so I have an attachment to them because of that and and so we're gonna we're gonna talk a little bit about.

Sentimental attachment as we even talk about these historical artifacts that are being taken down. But all that to say getting back to Nashville. There's a respect for Hank Williams and Johnny Cash and you know, some of these old-school country artists.

We went to the Johnny Cash Museum while we were there and my wife really enjoyed that. She doesn't like a lot of country music, but she really has a a lot of people are like this. You know, they don't like country music, but Johnny Cash, you know, they like him.

So my wife is a little bit like that. She liked Johnny Cash. And of course, I like most of it so I I thoroughly enjoyed our time there and. And and it was nice seeing people who didn't throw Throw all all tradition under the bus.

I mean I could still walk down the street and I was hearing some folks playing songs like, you know country roads and he stopped loving her today and and some of these older songs that. That I just don't know if other genres would tip their hat to the guys that were singing you know 70 years ago like country music does but.

But that that's what we experienced a little bit of and and it was refreshing it was nice and but the reason that I was in Tennessee actually was was because it was the closest airport Nashville was to where we spoke where I spoke in Kentucky at Russellville at Willow Creek Mennonite Church and Had a really really good time with those brothers really generous people really just down-to-earth nice humble people.

I I just really loved Speaking with them fellowshipping with them and It was just I had never been in a Mennonite Church before and so as I understand it. They're more this particular Mennonite congregation is a little more progressive and I hope I'm getting that right.

But not progressive in a political sense, but more so as you know. They're not legalistic about necessarily what you should wear or shouldn't wear, but they have a Mennonite tradition. And so I just really enjoyed my time there.

These are some of the most kind generous people and they just really want to hedge against social justice. And so it was really good to talk to them. And so thank you for those out there from the Willow Creek Mennonite Church and those who came from other places.

To hear me it was a joy and and so that's why we were there. But we did spend a few days in Nashville my wife enjoyed that we have some friends there. So we visited with them and and I'll tell you what I mean look they got country music.

They got barbecue all over the place. I mean, it's 4th of July. So we saw fireworks and I was kind of like this is kind of this is my speed right here. You know, of course living there isn't the same.

I'm sure as vacationing for for two days. But anyway had a great time one more announcement before we Commence to the topic at hand. Judge Saul the director of enemies within the church reached out to me while I was in Nashville.

And told him I couldn't really do anything while I was there. But now that I'm back There there's a special $25 ,000 as I understand it $25 ,000 matching. Someone who's gonna match donations for the film if you want to donate.

So there's a matching donation if you feel inclined to donate to the enemies within the church film which I know Judd really wants this to come out soon, and I think he's felt kind of like he's Been right around the corner from releasing it for probably the last year.

But he there's just a little bit of money. He needs to make up to be able to Pay for advertising and and so it's exciting. There's some materials. I will tell you this a little sneak peek. I have a book that I will be putting the finishing touches on this week that We're gonna try to kind of incorporate with the release of the movie and it's a history of how how do we get here in?

Evangelicalism and so I've traced some of that and And so Judd Judd would love it. If you donated you can go to the info section of this video and you can find enemies within the church Their web page and you can go there and give them a donation and it will be matched up to $25 ,000.

So That's some good news on that front. And I think those are all the announcements that that I have for now. So let's get into the topic at hand. We're gonna be talking about History and so I thought you know It would be good at least to talk a little bit about what history is before we talk about historical monuments.

History, Providence, and the Biblical Value of Memory

This is a definition by dr. Clyde Wilson, and I really like this definition. I mean, there's others who I'm just gonna tell you this if you want to go deeper on these things. John Lukas I think is a great historian to to study.

He understands historiography. I think Herbert Butterfield is a very good historian to study. He understands historiography but Dr. Clyde Wilson, I thought had just a really good definition that not only tells you what history is but contrasts it with Really the spirit of the age and I think he wrote this like more than 20 years ago.

So Very appropriate for today though history is not so we're starting with what it isn't. History is not an expression of abstract laws or the record of progress. It is a description of the actions of men of life.

Which in turn is an expression of the partly unknowable mind of God. Let me read that to you one more time. History is not an expression of abstract laws or the record of progress. It is a description of the actions of men of life, which in turn is an expression of the partly unknowable Mind of God.

What does this mean? Sounds almost Pantheistic right history. What do you mean? It's the mind of God. He's not saying it's literally the mind of God. What he's saying is that they're actually if you want to look at history as The way the way that most people look at it today a progressive understanding of history.

You're gonna look at history as a struggle. Okay, it's and especially as you during like Black History Month or Pride Month. You hear that word struggle an awful lot. History is the struggle to attain something some abstract principle of some kind usually equality inclusion diversity these kinds of things so history is this march towards a goal and If you look back through the record, you're gonna see leaps forward.

You're gonna see okay Slavery ended that was a leap forward towards this goal women were given the right to vote. Hey, that's another leap forward towards this goal. We implemented free public education.

Wow, and it's on a federal level. It's well-funded. That's a leap forward towards this goal. Homosexual marriage is the law of the land because well, it's not the law of the land. Supreme Court declared it to be Legal, so that's a that's a leap forward in this understanding.

So so, you know a liberal minded person in the United States would look at history perhaps that way. And we're just everything is getting better. Everything in the past is bad and and the better it gets right towards equality quote-unquote the worse the past looks and so You know going back 300 years.

I mean that that's that's barbarism. That's that's a horrible time of colonialism and Going back 200 years. We had slavery. That's that's really bad. Now, I mean we're starting to rip down things from the Progressive Era like Woodrow Wilson's name has come off some buildings at an Ivy League School, so because he said very racially insensitive things as a lot of progressives did I mean that was the time when Otabenga is in the Bronx Zoo.

I mean this this was Progressives at that point in time were very influenced by Darwinian evolution and they use that to advance scientific racism. And so so now that stuff has a lot of that stuff has got to go.

Of course Evolution is not Darwinian evolution is not Seen as the evil bad, you know influence and all that. It's just it's just white privilege. It's just these races but now but now all that has to come down.

So as we get more and more Closer to this goal of equality or equity if you want to say that word, which is what they're using now we rip down more and more things from closer in the past in other words.

At this point when does good history start is it? 1970 is that when we're finally, you know, the United States of America has dealt with the civil rights movement. So now we're past that now we're not a racist society.

Well now you have to deal with the fact that it wasn't until what? 2015 I think when Same-sex marriage was legalized. So if if now we're gonna go by that standard well, I guess we were all bigots until 2015 and then and so you see celebrities and actors and people in the public eye who Are apologizing for things that they did five years ago, you know whether it's blackface or they just they were just impersonating someone and use an accent or.

They said that maybe it's not good for women to serve On the front lines in the military or don't ask don't tell might have been a good policy. I mean the list goes on they said something considered now to be wrong and politically incorrect and now they have to go do penance for it or be fired for it and canceled and so.

So so that's what history is right this March of Progress Hyde Wilson saying no, no, no. No, that's not what what actual history is history is a description of the actions of men of life and In turn this is an expression of the unknowable mind of God.

So what makes sense of the actions over the past 500 years? Let's say thousand years 1 ,500 years. What makes sense of the actions of men in that time? Well, there's a Creator who made these men and the Creator has a sovereign plan and In in this story of humanity the Creator's plan is unrolling what the Creator wanted to have Done what the Creator is moving towards is actually taking place and there's good there's bad.

But but the Creator is the one that actually has is controlling things in a sense. And I'm not talking determinism here. Okay, that's that's for another episode. We can talk about that that stuff but but I'm talking about just the fact that the Creator has a plan that things are moving towards some kind of Conclusion that there's gonna be an eternal state and of course as Christians, we know Christ is gonna come back he's gonna set up a kingdom and We will rule with him those of us who are in him.

And so and and there will be no shedding of tears and True justice will happen after this life, but but there is significance to this life because the Creator made it and It's it's more than just an opportunity to receive salvation.

Societies are built. Cultures are built. Technology advances there's all sorts of things going on and The Creator meant for these things to happen. That's the point that there is some kind of I think that the best movie that gives a sense of this that I know of Is a Lord of the Rings?

Where you know, there's a scene where Frodo and Gandalf are sitting there talking to one another and Frodo says I don't know why the ring came to me I don't know why all these bad horrible things are happening and and Gandalf basically says it's not meant for us to know all of that we we just we fulfill the responsibilities that we have and we rise to the occasion and we Fulfill our duty in the best way that we possibly can for a higher purpose.

Not knowing exactly how that purpose is going to be revealed or what it always is. But we know that purpose exists because there is a Creator there is a plan. Okay. So this is what history is. History is these are the actions of men and we can't always look at those actions and know exactly what the Creator was doing.

But we know there is a plan that does exist. There is a purpose for these things and. And we can look back in the historical record and we can study it and we can tell the stories of men all of them flawed but all of them Representing certain things certain qualities some of them eternal qualities that we can then emulate and so.

So this is Clyde Wilson's understanding of what history is and for the United States of America. There's a there's a national history suppose, you know, quote-unquote. There's a history of the country.

There's state histories. There's local histories. There's regional histories and these histories tell a story about the people the life in those areas. So that's what history is. That's what makes history different in one place to another that's what makes their cultures different.

I should say is that hey they different histories and these histories influence them in different directions and It came out in their food and their culture and their political ideas and so forth and so on.

So here's some scriptural things. I just wanted to consider here terms. That you see throughout scripture God of our fathers. Well, that's a reference to history whenever you see God of our fathers. We're tying our concept of God back to Something in the past.

This is the same God our father's worship. There's a continuity there. So there's continuity in history in the fullness of time. You see that Phrase used quite a bit there. There's a plan. There's God had a specific time in this sense when this term is most off-quoted when Christ came to the world.

It was in the fullness of time. Is exactly when he wanted Christ to come. Psalm 78 forces this we will not conceal them from art from their children. But tell to the generation to come the praises of the Lord and his strength and his wondrous Wondrous works.

There we go, which he has done. This is a psalm of Asaph and he's saying that History is important here because we're looking back at the wondrous works, which what past tense God has done. History should be important for a Christian.

Here's another one Deuteronomy 32 7 through 8. Remember the days of old consider the years of all generations. Ask your father and he will inform you your elders and they will tell you when the Most High gave the nation's their inheritance.

When he separated the sons of man He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. So Again, Deuteronomy 32 is saying this Memory is important. History is important and things happened within this this Chronological narrative when God the Most High gave the nation's their inheritance.

He separated people and these would get into to land land boundaries. Legal issues. I mean you you can't have a law system. Especially when it comes to property if you don't have a history of some kind.

He divided people up he set the boundaries of the people so there's an importance given to history in Scripture and and this is just kind of. This is basic stuff this is. This is something that's inescapable when you read the scriptures because the Bible itself is a historical book it's a historical narrative so much of it and and God expects us to understand thousands of years of history to understand what he did what his plan was for salvation and consummation.

So here's some other things that history can do and this is this is in regards to the scripture and the law of God. But it inspires righteous living. Now these things happen to them as an example that they were written for our instruction upon whom the ends of the ages have come first Corinthians 10 11 and Then Romans 15 forces this for whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction.

So that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Spirit we might have hope so history can bring hope. When we're focusing on things that God has done in history. It can bring hope it can inspire.

It can teach think of Hebrews in the Hall of Faith and these men of whom the world was not worthy. These men are to be held in high regard. Right. So so there's something special about certain things that happen in history.

Not everything that happens is the same. It's not given equal value in Scripture. There are certain things that are valuable to remember and to make part of our memory. So why have monuments what are monuments about and I put a little picture of here the Washington Monument and and the tip of it.

This was the inscription that was put there Las Deo. Meaning praise be to God you think the Washington Monument is a little more than just George, Washington. Or do you think there's something else going on here?

Maybe maybe there is maybe maybe praise be to God says. You know what? This this is actually bigger than just George, Washington and who he was as a man. But he represented something and what he did represented something and people are thankful for that.

Here's some scripture for you. There are monuments or you know public physical Acknowledgements of past historical events in scripture. There's a number of them and and I'm sure I don't have all of them here but here's a few first Samuel 12 11 through 12 the men of Israel went out of Mizpah and pursued the Philistines and Struck them down as far as below Beth Carr.

Then Samuel took a stone and set it between Mizpah and Shenn and named it Ebenezer saying thus far the Lord has Helped us and of course we all Probably know the song come thou found and there's this line here.

I raise my Ebenezer. And no one knows what an Ebenezer is, right? Well, here you go. Here's what an Ebenezer is. It's a monument. It's a monument. He takes this stone and he's saying that this is my Ebenezer that thus far the Lord has helped us.

So this this is an honoring to the Lord physical marker honoring what the Lord helped them do and it's it's gratitude for a historical event. Here's another one and Joshua said to them cross again to the ark of the Lord your God into the middle of the Jordan and Each of you take up a stone on a shoulder.

According to the number of the tribes of the sons of Israel. Let this be a sign among you so that when your children ask later saying what do these stones mean to you? Then you shall say to them because the waters of the Jordan were cut off before the ark of the covenant of the Lord.

So they're telling a story right now. This is narrative when it crossed the Jordan store the waters of the Jordan were cut off. So these stones shall become a memorial to the sons of Israel forever. So this is what God did but it's also about what they did here here's something that they took part in they crossed the Jordan and These stones are the memorial to pass on it's important to pass on some of these stories to Generations to come and a public reminder of those things it it gives you the opportunity to do that.

That's why monuments are public in public areas. So you go and you say who's that person? What's what's that pile of rocks? What's that obelisk what's it there for and then parents and it's parents here they get the opportunity to tell their children that marks when this happened and Their children learn this is this is really part of a culture.

This is what makes a culture. So memory so remembering the works of God. We're also remembering the works of man and there's some negative Examples in here as well. Then Joab blew the trumpet and the people returned from pursuing Israel for Joab restrained the people they took Absalom and cast him into the deep pit in the forest and erected him over him a Very great heap of stones and all of Israel fled each to his tent.

Now Absalom in his lifetime had taken it and set up for himself a pillar which is in the Kings Valley. For he said I have no son to preserve my name. So he named the pillar after his own name and it's called Absalom's monument to this day 2nd Samuel 18 so this looks at Absalom not a good guy, right and So he dies and.

And a monument is erected of sorts a great heap of stones. This is where Absalom was killed. All right. So it marks the location as a significant event and then Absalom though had already erected his own monument called Absalom's monument.

And you know what? They didn't rip it down interestingly. Says it's still there to this day. So Absalom wanted to somehow honor himself. He didn't have a son to carry on his name. So he's gonna put his name Out on the historical landscape for people to see.

I was here. Here's another one. Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul and it was told Saul saying Saul came to Carmel and behold. He set up a monument for himself. Then turned and proceeded on down to Gilgal for Samuel chapter 15.

Saul's in disobedience in this passage and there he is setting up a monument for himself. To honor himself. So so there's something about monuments. That also can designate honor. So it's not just the marking of a historical event, but there can be honor involved in this hey, this is an event or a person that we want to remember because it shows us something good something we want to emulate something that we want to think highly of and Saul thought highly of himself and he was wrong.

I'm sure to do this. And Monuments can be erected for wrong motivations. It's important I say that and we're gonna talk about this. But there are wrong reasons to erect a monument it one of the first ones that comes to mind is there's a monument to Satan.

I think there's a few of them now that One I'm thinking of I think is in Oklahoma that was erected outside of the I think it's the state capital. But but you can google that there's monuments to Satan.

Yeah, not not a great person to emulate there. Not not not someone we want to you know, our kids walking down the street and say hey. What's that monument for and you say well, that's a monument to honor Satan and I mean I guess you can explain to them who Satan is.

But if it's depicted in a way in which Satan is being honored or Satan's looks favorably sitting on a throne or something. Well that that's a horrible monument. But if it's depicted in a way of Satan's, you know, he's losing he's.

Or he's trying to tempt someone and a beware of Satan. Well, that might be a good motivation right to put up a monument. So motivation authorial intent plays plays a lot into this. But Saul put up a monument for a bad reason.

Here's another one. This is from 2nd Kings 23. Then he said what is this monument that I see and the men of the city told him it is the grave of the man Of God who came from Judah and proclaimed these things which you have done against the altar of Bethel.

He said and this is Josiah. Let him alone and let no one disturb his bones so they left his bones undisturbed with the bones of the prophet who came from Samaria. The situation here is Josiah is going and Destroying all the the pagan places of worship idols the Mystical places people thought were had mystical powers and so forth where priests were buried.

He's taking that all and he's destroying it, right? So is there precedent for destroying? Monuments, I think there could be at times and we're gonna talk about that. But but he makes an exception here.

He says what's this monument for and says? Oh, that's this is a grave marker this is where a prophet is buried and he says don't destroy that and. And then that's another key thing about monuments. They can also be markers for graves.

They think you know, how often do you go to cemetery and you see some gravestones? I mean ever gravestones a monument, but how often do you see big ones? You know a lot of money was put into them. This is a significant person.

Look at that big one over there. So these mark where someone has died and it's to honor them often. So there's the works of man the works of God its memory monuments are about memory. They also can denote social obligation.

Here's Joshua 24 26 to 27 and Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law and he took a large stone and set it up there Under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the Lord. Joshua said all the people behold this stone shall be a witness against us for it has heard all the words of the Lord.

Which he spoke to us thus it shall be a witness against you so that you do not deny your God. Do you think the stone really heard? No, it's a stone, but it's symbolic. He's saying this stone was present when we heard the words of the law and it's gonna be a witness.

It's gonna say when we see that stone, we're gonna remember. Oh, yeah, we were there. And we remember the oath and we remember the obligation we have to obey the Lord that stones a reminder it's memory and this in this sense, it's memory to a social obligation who we are as Nationally as Israelites who we are as followers of Yahweh.

This is our obligation. And so we have this today. I mean, it's unfortunate. So many churches are getting away from this. They they don't like steeples. They don't like crosses. They don't like anything that would remind you of death like a graveyard.

They don't like to look like a church. They want a little corporate logo. They want all their songs to be Super new not written by old dead guys. I mean Tradition is just kind of thrown out the window but churches used to and there's still many Had these big steeples.

It was the tallest building in the town because you know why that's a monument. You look at that and you say that's the house of the Lord. That's what that represents. I'm reminded that there's a creator and that there's a law and that this is who I'm living under.

It was a social reminder for social obligation who we are as people who we are as individuals who's in control who should get honor and. And of course because they were the tallest buildings in the town lightning often struck them as well.

Monuments are also used as landmarks and we can see this today when Sometimes if you're in a town where there's a monument I know I grew up down the street from a place where there is this World War two monument and Sometimes people would say where do you live and I said well, I'm down the street from the World War two monument.

Oh, it's on the corner of and I tell them the streets and they'd say oh, yeah the monument. So monuments are used as Markers and here's an example of that from Genesis 28 in Genesis 35 in both cases Jacob named a place Bethel that had previously been called Luz and It was to mark events that took place the first one It says Jacob arose early in the morning he took the stone that he put under his head and set up a pillar and poured oil on its top so when Jacob has This vision and then the second one is Genesis 35 The Lord talks to Jacob and he puts a pillar in the place where he had spoken with the Lord.

And so this is to a holy place in a sense is a place that's different. This is a place where Jacob Talked to the Lord and received some kind of revelation. So It's an important place and it's also a landmark.

So he renamed the region and We I mean this every you'd pull out a map every town that you see is a monument to something or someone. I mean how many I grew up in the Northeast how many places in the Northeast?

Are also the names of places in England? Or Or old, you know Native American names. So It represents something or someone it's a landmark often. Now here I want to give you a little bit of my thinking on monuments in general.

This is kind of there's the grid that I use and I start with this GK Chesterton quote Don't ever take a fence down until you truly know the reason why it was put up. This is Chesterton's fence. Conservatives love using this and they say look this is how tradition works.

I mean if you want to if you want to change something if you want to take something down, that's fine. But you better know why it was there in the first place. Maybe there was a good reason for it and you just haven't thought of it.

And so maybe you should get back to authorial intent. So GK Chesterton pushes us back to authorial intent and applying this to the monuments debate. What what's the reason that monuments were erected in the first place would be the question?

Why are there monuments? What did the originators of these monuments want to communicate to those who would admire them or not admire them? Well, you have to go back to what the erectors what those who are dedicating them what what they thought of what did they say?