Mormon Makes Mormon Question Faith

Apologia Utah

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00:05

Andrew? Oh, what's up man? Dude, protest a drag queen story hour, not Mormons bro.

00:11

Protest? What do you mean? I don't know. Am I holding signs? Whatever you're doing here, hold signs. What's your issue with it?

00:16

Scream at them. Just yell at them. I'm serious. So me and my buddies, we went and we protested a drag queen story hour.

00:23

Good for you. We didn't say anything of substance to them. We just made it loud and made it unpleasant.

00:28

Anything of what? We just made it loud and made it unpleasant. Oh, ok. We gotta cancel the next year. Oh, cool. That's what you guys should do.

00:36

I see this guy has a Jerusalem cross on his back. Ok. Be a crusader. Oh man.

00:42

What's your name? Jack. Andrew. So are you LDS? Yeah, I am. Yeah, ok. But here's the thing,

00:48

I'm not particularly religious. So what does that mean? I'm just, it's not my primary motive right now in any given situation.

00:55

So you don't go to sacrament meeting on Sundays? No, I do. I do. I go to sacrament. I have a testimony of Christ and whatnot. The particular truth claims of Joseph Smith and whatnot are just, you're not going to be able to convince me of anything because I don't really have any kind of like,

01:10

I'm not that much of a Mormon to be enough of one. What do you believe then, man? I'm a nationalist.

01:17

I'm a Christian. Those are the two things I believe in. I'm more of a Christian than I am,

01:22

I'm a Christian first and Mormon second. I mean, I wear, I'm endowed. I wear garments, I go to the temple.

01:28

But that's more important to me than this. And right now, I understand you guys don't see Mormons as Christian. Yeah. But right now what you're effectively doing is you're attacking an institution that is on the same side as you in terms of like the meta -political narrative of fighting against, fighting against the enemies that are trying to deracinate our society and destroy it.

01:47

Gotcha. So I don't really, so I don't care, so this whole thing. Can I ask you a question on that real quick actually? Yes. So what do you believe about abortion then?

01:55

Abortion is wrong. It's a crime. It's horrible. So is it, are there any exceptions? No, not really. I mean, I can understand why somebody might want to abort a child if they were like raped or whatnot, but that's like.

02:05

Do you believe that's okay? No, I don't necessarily think it's okay. The LDS Church says it's okay. Okay, that's a political disagreement

02:12

I have on the matter. Here we go, but there we go. So what I would say to you. So wait, wait, wait, you're going to do the leftist thing of saying, well, here's this 1 % thing.

02:21

No, no, actually I think that's a big deal. Because 1 % of like incest and rape, like that's what abortion is.

02:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're going to argue on the fact that, like listen, my political beliefs, I do not, here's the thing,

02:34

I'm not one of these Mormons. Well, you said we sided with them conservatively and I'm just letting you know that actually I'm an abolitionist in terms of abortion.

02:40

This is like this one minute part of like the anti -abortion. I think it's a big deal. No, no, no, no, no, no.

02:46

I'm talking about in terms of dead babies here. That's what I'm talking about. Number of dead babies, the difference between the number of dead babies that the church wants and what like the people who are pro -abortion want, it's a lot more significant than your difference between how many you want and how many the church wants.

03:02

They still want some dead babies. You're like, no wait, you're like this, the enemy's like that.

03:08

No, no, no, see this is where I have the issue because according to the LDS organization, when they speak on their website, they're speaking on behalf of God.

03:15

So God to them is okay with killing babies in the womb in terms of rape, life of the mother, and incest.

03:22

No, no, no, no. It's on their church website. You can look it up. They've made statements about it. Now here's the thing. The church is not infallible.

03:29

It does not claim infallibility. But here's what I'm talking about though in terms of being a Christian, when

03:34

I stand on the word of God, what I would say is my God is not for those things. So if we have a difference of God, that's a big deal to me.

03:41

I don't have a difference of God with you. Okay, what do you believe about Jesus, for example, Jack? I believe he was, you know,

03:48

God incarnate. In the same way that he's a son of God. But I also believe I'm a son of God and that you are a son of God.

03:55

Right, so when you say son of God, you mean like that he, let's say, heavenly father and heavenly mother had some form of spiritual sex in the pre -existence and Jesus came into being through that and he's the spirit brother of Lucifer?

04:09

That's the actual Mormon doctrine that spirits were weaved out of pre -existing intelligence.

04:15

Okay, yeah, for sure. But how does that happen though? Why does God have a body of flesh and bone? Because he perfected man in the same way that you or I could become.

04:24

So not to beget spirit children. So you reject that. Say that again? You reject that, not to beget spirit children. You mean the infinite nature of God?

04:32

Well, in terms of God the Father, right, he has a son named Jesus Christ and you said you're a son of God. What does that mean?

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It means that I'm Jesus' brother. But how did you come to be in the pre -existence? I was weaved out of intelligence, just as you were.

04:47

Okay, so you weren't born from heavenly mother. You don't believe that? No, and the church doesn't believe that either.

04:53

Okay, so do you believe in heavenly mother? Yeah, but I don't worship her. Oh yeah,

04:59

I wouldn't think that you would. No, I'm not that kind of crin. I'm not that kind of sad. That's interesting. I've never heard of an

05:06

LDS individual say that there wasn't a celestial sex to beget spirit children before. Because I'm not a retard.

05:12

Because I'm not a moron who doesn't understand his own church's doctrines. Gotcha, so they just weave together

05:17

Jesus. There is a source of pre -existing intelligence that, by their holy connection, heavenly father and heavenly mother, weaved existing intelligences out of that to give them existence in the same way of a self -conscious existence as opposed to a non -conscious existence.

05:37

And that's the intelligences weaved out of. So was it procreation or not? We don't know.

05:45

The answer is that we don't actually know. Okay, so regardless, what I would say about Jesus, though, in John chapter 1 is that he has always been

05:52

God, right? Never ceased to be God. It says in John chapter 1 that all things came into being through him. And then in Colossians 1 it says he created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, meaning that he created

06:02

Lucifer. So the Jesus that I believe in, Jack, is actually different than the

06:07

Jesus you believe in. You believe that Jesus is God? Yeah. He eternally existed as God.

06:12

Is the human incarnation of the literal God in Abraham. We actually believe the same thing.

06:18

See, in a very weird way, we believe the same thing. Well, I believe that the Father is Yahweh, I believe that the

06:24

Spirit is Yahweh, and I believe the Son is Yahweh, just as I believe that the Son is Elohim, the Father is Elohim, and the

06:29

Spirit is Elohim. We commit the Nicene heresy of trideism.

06:37

Tritheism? Trideism. Trideism, okay. And the Nicene heresy of Arianism.

06:45

Right, yeah. Those are the two that we commit. Three separate entities of the

06:50

Trinity, and the Father is superior to the Son. Yes. In my view, from my teachings, both in Protestant Christianity, I was raised

07:00

Presbyterian. Oh, nice. And in the LDS faith, I find that the

07:06

LDS church is more of a reasonable belief system because it is a reproductive and selfless

07:13

God as opposed to a selfish God. In basic Christianity, what you essentially have is a

07:20

God that wants a certain number of the best people to live with Him in really nice stasis, right? Well, I'd say the

07:27

God of the Bible deserves in His— And all the rest are damned to hell. Hi. Do you know him?

07:33

No. Oh, okay. It looked like you knew him. I wish I did, though. What's your name? I'm Christine. Nice to meet you.

07:39

Cool, okay. So, in terms of what I believe about God, at least from the Bible, is that He's deserving of all worship and glory.

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He's the eternal God through which gave us life, right? Gave everything life.

07:51

He spoke everything into existence from nothing. In Hebrews, it says, By faith we believe that He created the world from nothing.

07:57

So, I believe that. So, the God of the Bible deserves worship. It's not that He's selfish.

08:03

It's that He alone deserves worship and glory. Oh, no. He deserves worship and glory because of our creation.

08:09

But do you understand where the view comes from where I say, Here's this God. He wants us to exist in happiness with Him.

08:21

Except for the people who commit a certain number of bad things, those people burn in fire forever. But why would you want to live with those murderers?

08:32

Let's just say they're murderers. Oh, no, I agree. Why would you want to live with them in heaven? Then it wouldn't be heaven. No, it wouldn't be heaven.

08:37

It wouldn't be this pure. No. It wouldn't be a purified place that would be safe.

08:42

No. Especially as a woman, we're always scared of getting raped and murdered.

08:48

But we are. So, it's like… Oh, no, I'm laughing because it's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not laughing at you.

08:53

Oh, okay, okay. I'm laughing at you. Yeah, but it's that same concept of wouldn't it be so nice…

08:58

To truly have peace, you need safety. Yeah. And you need to be able to trust those around you.

09:05

Yeah. So, you don't want to be with people who have proven themselves to be untrustworthy.

09:11

That's where the tears of glory come in. Yeah. Are you Mormon? Yeah, I'm Mormon. Oh, okay. I converted to the

09:18

LDS Church. Oh, gotcha. So did I. I'm also a convert. Oh, okay. Cool. Gotcha. Well, I would say that…

09:24

Yeah, I'm listening. My point is that my God wants me to become better than I already am in a really real physical sense.

09:33

Whereas when I was taught is that my God wants me to be his eternal servant after he ends the universe.

09:44

That just sounds like a weird thing. That doesn't sound like a loving

09:49

God. That sounds like a domineering God. And I believe in a wrathful and terrible God in the biblical sense.

09:55

I believe in that. But I also don't believe that somebody who created me in that kind of way basically wants me to exist to be just his thing forever.

10:08

Right. I think that he'd want to reproduce himself and have me reproduce myself and go on this big long line of…

10:14

Gods. …of logos. Well, so do you… Okay. But why is God… In my mind, it's like, is

10:20

God wrathful toward humans or is he wrathful toward sin? Sin. Right?

10:26

Yes. And we're committing sin as humans. I mean, if animals could commit sin,

10:32

I'm sure he would be wrathful toward the animals too, right? I believe animals can commit sin. Sure. Do you believe that? I'm just thinking.

10:37

You know, but like, this is what I mean. I'm like, I don't think it's necessarily he's wrathful toward us. I think he loves us.

10:43

But the fact that we're sinning, that, like, he can't tolerate sin because sin can't exist in heaven.

10:51

Yeah. And it's completely against him and his nature. Yeah, no, I agree. It's justice. And so it's justice to be like, sin needs to go to hell, where, like, the pure goes to heaven.

11:04

So it's not so much that he wants you or I to, like, oh, well, you were sinful, so you go to hell.

11:09

It's like, no, your sin needs to go to hell. And if you're going to choose to, like, live in sin and not repent, not come unto

11:19

Christ, he has no choice but to, like, send you to hell, right? Like, he's not sending you to hell.

11:25

We're given free will, and we freely, like, choose. But that commits a heresy.

11:32

How? That's a nice C in heresy, because that assumes an un -infinite nature of God. An infinite nature?

11:38

A non -infinite nature of him. Oh, maybe explain that. A way of thinking about God is that he is, um, that he is a hundred percent everything, and he is infinite, right?

11:52

That's a way of thinking about God. That's a non -heretical, proper way to think about God. If you were to take a banana, right, and you were to, like, make it infinitely large, infinitely powerful, infinitely energetic, infinitely everything, it would no longer be a banana.

12:09

It would just be God, by that point. So God is everything. And if he is everything, that means he has control over the laws that he is subject to.

12:20

Well... Which means that he can... Which means he actually theoretically could have whoever he wanted around him.

12:28

Yes, but it's almost like the concept of having boundaries, too. It's like, you can do whatever you want, but, like, if we're going to, like, create order, you need to create rules, and, like, live by those rules, or there's no point to having the rules, right?

12:44

Like, there's no point to, like, having heaven if anyone can go... Like, not everyone can go to the temple, right?

12:50

I agree with that. And, like, we're very strict, even with our own, like, church, right?

12:56

I mean, I'll be... Which is very epic. Yes, I'll be honest. I think that's where the false gospel comes, though. Yeah, I mean, and I'll be, like, transparent, like,

13:04

I've, like, probably the last few months I've been kind of going away from Mormonism, but I see both sides, right?

13:13

So... No, I do, too. I'm telling them they're, like, aiming in the wrong direction, basically. Well, I...

13:18

They're far more important issues to focus on than... Well, I think your eternal soul... ...than to focus on the population. Your eternal...

13:24

Really? Well, here's the thing... Really nice, and also really religious. Well, here's the thing, Jack. So, to me, right, that's your perspective, right?

13:31

Yeah. So, my perspective is that if you believe in the wrong Jesus, if you believe in the wrong gospel, you don't have an atonement for your sins, so when you die, you're going to stand before the

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Father unjustified, not declared righteous, and you will go to hell. At least I believe a Jesus, as opposed to people doing...

13:49

Well, here's the thing, Jack. 2 Corinthians 11... Here's the thing. 2 Corinthians 11, verse 4, Paul warns the church in Corinth, and you can look it up later if you want.

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He says there will be people who come and preach a different Jesus, a different gospel, and a different spirit. I know. So, to me, there's a biblical precedent that there's different doctrines on who

14:04

Jesus is, and that matters, right? Galatians 2 says those who seek to be justified by the works of the law, the death of Christ has no effect on you.

14:12

If you have a different Jesus, you're going to end up with a different gospel. So, my burden in my heart for you, as an

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LDS individual, is the Jesus of John chapter 1, in the beginning was the Word, and the

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Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things came into being through Him. There was nothing that came into being unless it was created through Him.

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And the Jesus in Colossians 1 says He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, and He is before all things.

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And in Him all things hold together, presents a different Jesus than Joseph Smith brought to the table, okay?

14:45

Listen, there's two tests of a prophet in the Bible, three if you want to add what Jesus says, you'll know them by their fruits. One test,

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Deuteronomy 13, it says if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and produces miracles, signs and wonders, but if they lead you after another

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God, a God which you have not known, do not believe in them. And then later in the law of God, it says put them to death for it.

15:06

So the question is, the God of the Old Testament. You're funny, man.

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Don't kill me! No, never. Don't kill me for being a little bit more, just as Christian as you, but not in the same way.

15:18

I don't think Joseph would agree with you, man. I think that you're backing off even what Joseph says. I mean, that's even with Muslim.

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I mean, they have a prophet. They actually also believe in Jesus. They call Him Esau? He didn't resurrect from the dead?

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Because they, I mean, kind of in their Christian God. They call it

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Allah. Jesus is up there. But they believe in the Old Testament sort of thing, right? They just don't believe in the New. They call it

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Injil, the New Testament as well as a scripture. Yeah. It's Allah, bro. But here's the thing.

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But see, they had a prophet who's actually kind of, has a similar story to Joseph Smith. Story to Joseph Smith, he sure does. Oh, yeah. Well, and so it's like, why would we judge them and be like, oh, well, obviously their religion's false.

15:59

Like, how can they, like, stupidly believe in this prophet? But then, like, you're going to say, oh, but Joseph Smith, he's a real prophet.

16:05

Right, right. Be consistent. I'm not bigoted against, like, Muslims. You don't got that on me.

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But just listen, though. No, I'm not saying bigoted. I'm saying, like, if we're going to say, like, the

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Muslim religion is false, we have to also apply that to the

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Mormon religion because Joseph Smith's backstory of how he, like, was visited by an angel and the angel told him, well, you need to start a whole new religion, that's literally

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Prophet Muhammad's backstory. He was also visited by an angel and told, like, you need to start a whole new religion.

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It is totally, like, you believe in the truth claims of Joseph Smith or you don't.

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You believe that Joseph Smith looked into a hat with rocks in it and had his plates off to the side and translated the

16:52

Book of Mormon or you don't. Well, let me get back, guys, real quick. To a large extent, a large part of, like, the argumentation against it is, like, cringe atheist talking points of, like, basically that, well, how could the

17:04

Jesus guy turn water into wine? That's just not possible. It's the same kind of argumentation.

17:09

The test of a prophet are not atheist cringe, though. Yeah, like, so what I'm trying to get to, Deuteronomy 13, okay?

17:15

We've got the words of Moses, the second giving of the law before the second generation of Israelites enter into the

17:21

Promised Land, right? The first generation died off because of their hardened hearts. We're told that in Hebrews, right?

17:26

But regardless of what I'm trying to say is that if a prophet comes, in Deuteronomy 13, it says, if they produce signs and wonders, so there's miracles happening, okay?

17:36

Those miracles don't necessarily mean that the person actually comes and speaks from God. So the test is, do they...

17:42

It could be a cult. Right, so... It could be a witchcraft. It could be the enemy. So the question is, is do they lead you after other gods?

17:48

Well, Deuteronomy 6, 4, hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Isaiah 43, 10, before me there was no

17:53

God formed, neither shall there be after me. You can't cite the Old Testament in that. Why? Because that's pre -Christ.

18:00

Deuteronomy? Deuteronomy is before Christ. Well, absolutely, but... In terms of, like, his birth. You can't cite

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Deuteronomy. Well, why? Why not? Yeah, wait, why? Because the Jews did not... Because the Israelites at that point in time did not know anything more than they already knew.

18:15

Okay, here we go. Genesis chapter 3. Genesis. Genesis chapter 3. It's a little bit more accurate there. It's a little bit different.

18:21

No, no, listen. Genesis chapter 3 is the very first promise of the gospel given to Eve. From the seed of the woman will be the one who comes to crush the head of the serpent.

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The promise was always saying, looking forward to the one who is going to come to be the sin crusher.

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From Genesis to Deuteronomy 18, talking about the one true prophet to come, I reject that because the law given to Moses was, it came from Christ.

18:42

I reject that. Absolutely. We believe it came from Christ, too. Okay, so it's a moot point. We believe that Jehovah is the premortal name of Jesus.

18:48

Thank you, so your point's a moot point. So, Jesus' law, who talks about the prophet. I'm not an enemy here.

18:53

No, I just want you to listen. I understand that you're aiming in the wrong direction. Again, man, you're being inconsistent. I'm not being inconsistent.

18:58

I'm being epic. No, just let me finish my point. I haven't given my point yet. I hope you understand

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I don't take you guys very seriously. I can see that. Not because you guys are bad, because you're aiming in the wrong direction.

19:09

Just listen, man. So, in Deuteronomy 13, what we're told is if we're led after another god, do not believe them.

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Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse. You have imagined and supposed that God has been God from all eternity.

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I will refute the idea and take away the veil so that you may see. You have got to learn to become gods yourself like all gods have done before you.

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That's the words of Joseph Smith. What does God say about himself in the Bible? I have been God from everlasting into everlasting.

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Psalm 90, verse 2. He is Alpha and Omega. He's Alpha and Omega. Well, Joseph Smith rejects that. You've got to learn to become gods.

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According to Deuteronomy 13, which is prophecy given at least, man, 2 ,800 years before Joseph Smith, the law of God, I must reject

19:52

Joseph. I must reject him and his claims about God. And now get this. If Joseph comes and brings a different god, you're going to end up with a different gospel.

20:00

What's the third article of faith, Jack? Through all faith? Oh, gosh. I'm a convert, so I didn't have to memorize it.

20:05

I'm not even Mormon, but I know it. Well, of course, your job is to draw people from the church. So, of course, you draw people from the church.

20:11

No, I want you to be able to understand that the gospel presented biblically so you can have saving faith. You're missing words.

20:17

You're taking people away from the institution of the church of Jesus Christ. From a false gospel, a false

20:22

Christ. I am aware of why you're doing it, but it's basically like a communist going, no,

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I'm not trying to make you a communist. I'm just trying to take away from capitalism. I want you to know the truth. No, I know you do.

20:33

I know you do. But hold on. But the Mormon churches were known for going on missions.

20:40

They come and knock on my door. They're literally converting people to our faith. Oh, no, I know that. I know that. So why?

20:46

No, no, no. But that's what they're doing. I don't have any, no. I don't have any problem. No, here's the thing.

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It's a social institutional thing. I'm focused on a more social institutional thing and an effective action thing rather than the actual spiritual mission that they're on.

21:04

But our missions, we will convert Catholics to be Mormon. We'll convert people of other faiths to be

21:10

Mormon. I actually kind of cringe converting Catholics because Catholics are... But do you know what I mean? Like, we convert people of other faiths to our religion all the time.

21:19

No, I know. But that's hypocritical to then be like, well, why are you taking me away? No, it's not hypocritical at all because I recognize that we do draw people away from the

21:26

Catholic Church. No, but we draw people away from all sorts of other religions because we believe this is the one true church.

21:34

So let me get to the gospel issue real quick. If you were Muslim, we would be trying to convert you to the Mormon faith and not be

21:41

Muslim anymore. Does that make sense? I also talked to two agnostics earlier today, not just Mormon and Muslim. But, I mean, in the

21:53

Garden of Eden, the whole point of their downfall was oh, eat from the tree of knowledge and you can be basically a god.

22:03

That was the original downfall of like, you want to be a god? Well, then I'm going to kick you out.

22:08

And then how did Satan tempt Eve? What is the first thing he said before that? He said, did God say that? It always happens the same.

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Yeah, he was gaslighting us. Well, Joseph Smith does the same thing. He says the Bible's missing many plain and precious parts.

22:20

You can't trust it. And then guess what? You can become a god one day. Third article of faith, we believe that all mankind may be saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ by obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles.

22:30

In order to get to the highest level of heaven, you must It's works -based salvation. It's works -based salvation.

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To be with God the Father for all eternity. It's not just the righteousness of Christ. There's also X, Y, and Z that must be done.

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And who advocated for works -based salvation? According to our Mormon belief, it was

22:47

Satan. That was his plan for us. I think you need to leave the LDS organization. Well, I'm getting there.

22:54

Yeah. It's a transition right now. I think you're undereducated on your own faith. I'm sorry.

23:00

Really? What was Satan's plan? Satan's plan was to force people to be Yeah, and what's forcing them?

23:08

That's a works -based salvation. You have to be perfect in order to go back to heaven.

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I saw him go like that. Like, that's just not true. I'm so sorry. No, no. I want to think about the gospel real quick, though.

23:21

No, but I'm saying, like, that's what we believe in. Mormon, yeah. Well, then I feel like you don't know what

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I went to school and studied for like three years about this. But you just said he would force us to be perfect to go to heaven.

23:35

You can be perfect and, like, be spiritually, internally perfect. Like, that can be a spiritual thing.

23:42

But it takes work to be perfect. You know what I mean?

23:47

It takes work to be perfect. Okay. I mean, like, but So he would, you would have to say all the right things, do all the right things, and he would enforce that so we could go to heaven.

23:58

Yeah. Right? But that's a works - That's not about saying all the things. He also meant to internally believe the things, right?

24:05

It was a removal of agency as a spiritual thing. No, that's part of it, too. But that -

24:10

No, no, no, no. But there's a works -based salvation. That is what it was. That was it.

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That was not part of it. That was what it was. And, yes, being spiritually, internally perfect would result in you doing and saying all the nicest and perfect things.

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I think regardless of what you may think Lucifer's plan was, I think you have recognized that what they do believe in order to be with God the

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Father today, that is taught, is a works -based salvation. Yes, it is a works -based salvation. Through and through. Jesus denies that.

24:40

Let me tell you this. The Jesus Christ of the Gospel is the Jesus Christ of Philippians, chapter 2, where it says, Though he existed eternally in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

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Therefore he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant. And he was obedient to the Father, obedient to the point of even death on a cross.

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Right? My belief in Jesus Christ alone, he was the perfect righteous one who was perfectly obedient to the works of the law where none of us could be.

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Right? He was sinless. I'm not sinless. Jack's not sinless. Nate's not sinless.

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None of us are sinless. Jesus was. Okay? He was perfectly obedient.

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His blood was shed for me on the cross. Right? Covers me for my sins.

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So Jesus on the cross takes my sins. Okay? And through my belief in him, he gives me his righteousness.

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Is there any better righteousness than the sinless spotless lamb that will make you stand before the

25:36

Father justified? No. Jesus's righteousness is enough. The God man,

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Jesus Christ. Not external works. Right? So this church teaches that it's not enough.

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That's just a starting point. You must do X, Y, and Z to be before God the Father. What I'm telling you today is the true biblical gospel rejects that.

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It says, by your faith alone in the true eternal God who took on flesh and died on the cross for your sins, you can have assurance of your salvation through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

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Where do consequences come in? It doesn't mean that I live my life however I want to. Paul anticipates your question in Romans.

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It says, no, actually, now that I'm dead to the law, I'm free to uphold the law because my salvation is assured by grace.

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Right? Even if I make some mistakes, it doesn't mean that I'm damned anymore. But it also says in Ezekiel, it says that he'll take my heart of stone, replace it with the heart of flesh, put his spirit within me, and cause me to want to observe his statutes.

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I'll never be perfect before I die. First John says, those who say they are without sin, the truth is not in them.

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Right? But it's purely through the righteousness of Christ that when I die, I will be justified before God.

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There's a prophecy of the coming Messiah in Zechariah, and it's a picture of the throne room of God.

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We have Satan the accuser there, and we have Joshua present. And Joshua is before the angel of the

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Lord. And Satan's trying to accuse him, and the angel of the Lord says, no, Joshua, I give you my clean garments.

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I will remove the iniquity of this land away in one single day. The righteousness that I wear is purely the righteousness of Christ.

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That's the gospel. There's nothing you can do to be justified before God. If you think there's something you can do, you must not understand the weight of your sin.

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Romans 3 says, no one seeks God. No one understands God. All have gone astray. The venom of asps is under our lips.

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Our throats are an open grave. But the beautiful thing is, is that though I deserve wrath and punishment,

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John 3, 16, God sent his son to die for me so that I can believe in him, and through my belief in him alone,

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I can have eternal life. That's the gospel. It's not the atonement of Jesus Christ by obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles.

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Again, Galatians 2, 21, those who seek to be justified by the works of the law, the death of Christ has no effect on you.

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My Jesus isn't a stepping stone. He's the cornerstone of my faith. He's the cornerstone of my life. Hey, that's offensive legitimately.

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Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of our faith too. His death's not enough for you. No, it isn't.

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No, it isn't for me. You misunderstand our doctrine. Let me ask you a question then. So if you weren't sealed in the temple for all time and eternity, if you weren't obedient to the word of wisdom, if you weren't baptized in their church, would that be enough for you to be with God the

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Father for all eternity? In the celestial kingdom. Yeah, in the celestial kingdom. Except for the fact that you can do all those ordinances after your death.

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So they still need to be done, correct? Yeah. That's more than Jesus, my friend. My Jesus is the cornerstone, not a stepping stone.

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But all done by the power of Jesus Christ. No, those are your external righteousness. They're nothing but filthy rags before God.

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God doesn't want them. Hey, hey, hey, don't call me filthy, man. No, the Bible does. I participated in a pride parade. You didn't so far.

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How do you know what I've done in evangelism? I believe you. I'm just playing with them.

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I'm just playing with them. But the reality is, in terms of the righteousness that I wear, I wear the righteousness of Christ, not external obedience to gospel ordinances and principles, okay?

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I get to you they're very important. Yeah. But according to the New Testament, that doesn't save you.

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And actually, if you believe that there's other things that you need other than the righteousness of Christ, then the death of Christ has no effect on you.

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You don't understand the gospel. You believe a different one. And that's my worry for you. Yeah, I believe a different gospel.

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I believe there's an addition of the work of Mormon, Pearl O 'Gray Price. But I reject it because of Deuteronomy 13.

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I reject it. Joseph Smith's a false prophet. Deuteronomy 13? You mean the coming of false prophets?

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No, Deuteronomy 13. The test of a prophet. Another angle for the idea of having – because,

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I mean, there's always that point of, well, so if we're just saved, can we just do whatever the heck we want?

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Because you were talking about consequences or actions, right? And the answer is yes. No. No, that's not what

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I said. I know you're Baptist, so you think differently. No, that's not what I said. But at the end of the road –

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No, you misunderstood me. All you're going down to is I can do whatever I want. You misunderstood me.

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Romans refused that. Romans refused it. Then say Romans first. Well, no, but I think he wasn't – so what

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I think is your – I think you have a similar agreement, so you're just kind of seeing different points.

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No, we have a synthesis totally. We're actually in agreement on like 98 % of things. But he quoted a scripture that was talking about like when you really get converted, like God, the

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Holy Ghost converts your heart, right? You'll want to do good things to honor

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God if you're truly converted in your heart. But those good things don't save me. They're the fruit of my faith, not the root of my faith.

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So his point is just it's not going to save you, but he still agrees that yes, if you truly become converted, you naturally want to do good in the world, right?

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So the people who are like, oh, yeah, I got baptized, but I'm going to just, you know, commit murder, pour myself out, they're not actually converted.

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And they show that through their work. That's what James 2 is talking about. So you guys are like similar in that standpoint.

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It was just a little off, but like I was going to say with the idea of like Jesus and why he had to die, he had to die because God gives us free agency.

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He doesn't force us to be good. So unfortunately, you do have the freedom to sin.

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You do have the freedom to like not be so great, right? And because he doesn't want to take away that free agency, we'll never be perfect.

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We'll never be sinless. Even if we try really, really, really hard, I'm sure like there's like, you might have a bad thought towards someone, or maybe, you know, like you'll do one, even if it's a small mistake, that mistake is like,

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I'm sorry, you're still imperfect from that small thing. Even if you're a 99%, but I was 99 % there.

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Sorry. You weren't 100%. You know what I mean? I never had any thoughts in my head ever. I know. Right? Like don't look at the hot girl walking by.

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Right? Like you can't have anything. No, I'm committing adultery. Yeah, see, it's like you committed adultery. Like now you're 99%.

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So he knew even if we got to 99%, that's not 100%.

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So he had to send Jesus because Jesus was 100%. You know?

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And so the question you should ask yourself, does Mormonism teach that you don't have to be perfect in order to go to the celestial kingdom?

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Sorry, and that's a good segue. It does. So I feel like... That you don't have to be. Yeah. But I feel like the idea of the churches were always like, you have to do harder, you have to like, you know, do more service, charity work, you have to, you know, be a good ministering brother or sister, and you got to do this, you got to do that, you got to do this.

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And it's so exhausting. Wait, do we withhold salvation for not doing those things? Define salvation for me.

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No, but I'm saying... Define salvation. Celestial kingdom. Okay. Does it deny the celestial kingdom if you do not go to your ministering assignment?

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I have something for you. If that's a consequence of... Well, because it might... If not going to your ministering assignment is a...

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and the consequence is not going to the celestial kingdom, I'm telling you right now, no one's going to the celestial kingdom. Sure.

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No, but I'm saying... No, but to your point, if you're not being like the best

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Mormon, they won't give you a temple recommend. Yeah?

33:35

No. Okay. I know some people who definitely shouldn't have a temple recommend. I'm going to say something really crude. I'm going to say something really crude, but I'm like, okay, go tell your bishop that you masturbate.

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Is he going to give you a temple recommend? I was talking about myself. I was talking about really... I was talking about people who are not... No, but I'm saying... Do you see what

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I mean? The bishop sees their behavior. If you're not paying tithing, he's not going to approve you to get a temple recommend.

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Yeah. That was really cute, by the way, accusing me of masturbating. Thank you for that. That was very mature and nice.

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She just gave an example. I'm just giving an example. Jack likes to be facetious. I am facetious. I am never facetious.

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I never make jokes. Yeah. But you know what I mean? If the bishop feels like, no, you're not up to par for...

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Because we believe you need to be excellent. You can't just be a Mormon. You have to be the cream of the crop of Mormons to get a temple recommend.

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I think if you can't get a temple recommend, you're not Mormon, frankly. Okay. Well, so there you go.

34:31

But... Well, so then... No, but if you take that train of thought, if you don't have a temple recommend, but you're

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Mormon, yeah, you're not going to go to celestial kingdom. Yeah, you are. No, you don't.

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If in your heart you're convert, do you know about the spirit kingdom? If you don't have a temple recommend, will you go to celestial kingdom, or will you go to the lesser kingdom?

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You can go to celestial kingdom. You can be... Without a temple recommend, and doing endowments. You can be a Mormon that smokes cigarettes and drinks beer for his entire life and never gets a temple recommend, and you can have proxy work done for you after your death.

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See, there's external work still. Wait a minute. Hey, hey, hey. You just talked for like 10 minutes, and you can have proxy work done for you, and you are converted in your heart after your death.

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If someone doesn't do that work for you... You'll be redone. All the work is going to be redone in the millennium.

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That's the point. It's still work outside of what Christ has done. That's the point of it. Actually, Christ is going to direct that work exactly.

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So it's not outside of what Christ has done. Christ is doing every single bit of that work because he is in every single prayer by the authority of Jesus Christ.

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But he never said that in the Bible. Yeah, see, I think you're understanding that's one of the biggest differences that I would have with the

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Mormon gospel and the biblical gospel. My plea to you... Do you live in Provo?

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I've done all of it. You need to leave this place. It preaches a different Jesus and a different gospel, okay?

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You need to get plugged into a solid biblical church around here. Yeah, I don't know any. Well, there's First Baptist Provo, and I can actually introduce you to one of the pastors who's on the corner right now.

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The gospel of Mormonism does not save anyone. Yeah. God is so serious that he says, if you reject what my son gave you, he says the death of Christ has no effect on you.

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Galatians, the book itself, it was written to the church in Galatia, and there were people called the

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Judaizers, and what they were teaching was that in order to become a Christian, if you're a

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Gentile, you must first be circumcised, okay? And Paul writes to them, Apostle of Christ, he writes to them, he says, if you believe that you must first be circumcised to become a

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Christian, you might as well cut your whole member off, castrate yourself. Oh. He says you're adding another work onto the gospel.

36:52

I see. That's just one. That's just one. They had many, many, right?

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Yeah. I think the Bible could be humorous. Oh. Might as well cut you off. Yeah. Oh, that's funny.

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But in terms of the righteousness of Christ, what my hope is for you today is to have faith in the biblical

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Jesus, the eternal God, not the offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, but the one who created Lucifer, the one who made all things, brought them all into existence, the

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Jesus of John 1. Yeah. Right? Not the Jesus of Joseph Smith. Yeah. I must reject him because of previous revelation,

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Deuteronomy 13, and then Deuteronomy 18. If there's one false prophecy, not a true prophet.

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You can do your own research on Joseph Smith's unconditional prophecies he made that never came true. Oh, my God. There's multiple.

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You can look it up yourself. Yeah. I don't need to repeat them to you. But today, this is my call for you.

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You can have salvation in Christ alone. If you do not harden your heart and turn to a false gospel and a false church.

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And today, if you repent and put your faith in Jesus Christ alone, when you die, if you were to die tonight, you'll have full assurance that you will stand before the

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Father and Jesus will intercede and say, they deserved wrath, you deserved wrath, but I took her place on the cross and I died for her.

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And you're in heaven for all eternity. That's it. You can have that today. That's what

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I want for you. Okay. Yeah. I can't change your heart. It's not possible. But what I can do is present the biblical gospel to you is that.

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Okay. So take this as well. I'm a pastor of this church. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I'm one of the same. It's a different one. But I'm one of the pastors at that church. We meet in South Jordan.

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I don't have a car. That's fine. But there's first Baptist Provo. There's somewhere over there.

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But Ed Romine is one of the pastors there. He's on the corner. He's in a wheelchair. Go talk to him.

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He's in a wheelchair? Yeah, he's a pastor over there. He's actually in a wheelchair. Oh, okay. But talk to him. Please get plugged in.

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Do not go back there. Do not make covenants every Sunday to a false God with a false gospel. I did stop attending the temple a few months ago.

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I'm even talking about sacrament meetings. Because that's renewing your covenant every Sunday. Flee the place. I'm dead serious.

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You don't need to be there. Yeah. Well, here. I'll talk to you later. So this is...

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I'm sorry. I'm Joe. Hi, Joe. I'm Christine. Neil Till talked to you. Nice to meet you, okay? I'm going to go over here and hand out more tracks.

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Okay. I wish you the best on everything. Again, if you need us at all, just contact us. But First Baptist Provo is amazing.