June 2, 2015 ISI Radio Show with Pastor Ron Glass on What the Bible says on Homosexuality

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Well good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity on the planet earth. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday, June the 2nd, 2015 and I think

I may have ceased to become a cessationist. I say that in jest because I believe miracles do exist because of the fact that I am actually broadcasting on air for the second day in a row, technical problems free and many people thought that it could not be done but thanks be to God and thanks be to the friends that God has given me who are capable of using this technology, we are now broadcasting live the second day in a row and for those of you who heard our program yesterday, we began the theme of same -sex marriage with Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and we particularly were addressing the societal impacts and ramifications of the acceptance of same -sex marriage which is being forced upon us all by the leftist agenda and there is an attempt for it to be forced upon us all and as we all await a

Supreme Court decision which is supposed to be occurring by the end of this month, we think it is a valuable thing for Christians to be addressing this subject and yesterday, as always, an hour is not enough time to adequately address everything that needs to be addressed.

In fact, we could do a whole month's worth of these programs on this issue and it wouldn't give us enough time to really thoroughly delve into it as deeply as we could or should but we are only granted an hour so we are actually following up on yesterday's interview with Dr.

James R. White and today we have with us a very, very dear friend of mine,

Pastor Ron Glass of Waiting River Baptist Church and he is going to be discussing what the

Bible has to say about homosexuality and we will also be addressing the same -sex marriage issue as well and it's such an honor and privilege and a joy for me to have my dear friend

Ron Glass with me on the air for the first time during this newly relaunched

Iron Sharpens Iron series. Great to have you with us. Well, I'm glad to be with you

Chris. I really appreciate it. And Pastor Glass is the pastor of Waiting River Baptist Church which is on the eastern end of Suffolk County, Long Island.

He's also a former adjunct professor of biblical exposition at Talbot School of Theology and he's the host of the

River of Life radio program which can be heard in eastern Suffolk County on Faith FM radio and that's every

Saturday at 9 30 a .m and Sunday at 7 30 p .m and you can hear it anywhere in the world via live streaming at eastgatebroadcasting .com.

That's eastgatebroadcasting .com. I strongly recommend that you listen to this program as Pastor Glass is dedicated to expository preaching.

I happen to be the individual who along with Ralph Lambiasi of Apologia Designs, we edit

Pastor Glass's sermons in order to fit within a half hour program and I strongly recommend it for its powerful content and biblical faithfulness.

But Pastor Glass, it's good to have you back to address this very serious issue of same -sex marriage and also what the

Bible has to say about homosexuality. And first of all, before I even begin with my questions for you,

I just want to make it clear to our listeners, who knows, there's maybe some homosexuals listening or some who practice that sin.

We are not attempting to beat up on homosexuals or bash them or what have you.

We believe it is the duty of Christians motivated by love to inform homosexuals that if they do not repent, they will not see eternal life.

This is a damnable sin and as all sin is without the blood of Christ and we just urge you to listen carefully and withhold judgment.

Hate is not the motivation, I can assure you. Only hatred of sin, which we all should have.

Some people may think that particularly this radio program may be hobby -horsing on this sin.

That is not the case because we are doing this two days in a row. That is not the case that we are hobby -horsing or we're trying to put an extra focus on this particular sin than other sins.

It's really, Pastor Glass, wouldn't you agree that it's really society that is constantly every single day bombarding us with this sin by trying to manipulate and brainwash everyone into adopting it, accepting it and celebrating it?

Yeah, especially the media, the more liberal media, which is most of it.

But for example, in National Public Radio, I've noticed almost every day some sort of a story on this subject.

So it is constantly besieging us, yes. Yes and more and more television programs feature a prominent character that is a homosexual, even programs that are watched by families, including small children and so on.

And it's just, it has become an overwhelming issue in the public eye and obviously it's also one of the, it's really the only sin

I can think of that has become a global movement and has become a powerful political force, where people are demanding to be recognized as a specific class of people in regard to this sin, as if they are an ethnic group, a race or a gender.

It's just mind -boggling how they have successfully reached the level of power they have, being a tiny minority in the society.

Wouldn't you agree, Pastor Clark? Yeah, and this is a good place to begin, because the incident that really became the flashpoint for this recent attention that's been given to this subject was not only the argument before the

Supreme Court in the case of Obergefell versus Hodges, that decision, which is pending and will come down at the end of June, but it was also the passage of the

Religious Freedom Restoration Act in the state of Indiana that caused a violent reaction on the part of the pro -gay community.

And as a result, if you remember, in a really pretty definite way, the

Indiana legislature and Governor Pence backed down on that. So that's really what has put it in our attention, put it in the crosshairs for us again.

And so the question now becomes, what are we going to do about religious freedom?

That is the issue that is being talked about by many Christian organizations today.

And we realize the importance of religious liberty in America.

In fact, we know that religious liberty is precisely what allows a pluralistic society to live together in peace.

And that's why the current environment, with this new emphasis on the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, that is the act that was passed by Congress in the

Clinton administration, and then the subsequent state acts, they call it

RFRA, Religious Freedom Restoration Act, that has become a compelling interest.

And so the question really comes down to a clash of religious values.

This isn't anything new in American history. You go back to a legal case called Reynolds v.

U .S. in 1878, which concerned polygamy as practiced by the Mormons. And the

Supreme Court said that Congress has no legislative power over the religious opinions of its citizens.

But it is free to address those actions that violate social duties or subversive of good order.

Well, if they said that, but the problem with that is that the question then becomes who determines what social duties are and what good order is.

And subsequent cases that they have handled protected the rights of religious groups on issues such as education and immunizations, that kind of thing.

But they prohibited such things as snake handling and drinking poison, those kinds of things.

So it's a debate. How far can you go in prohibiting freedom of religion?

So we have had, in recent years, what a lot of people call culture wars here in America.

But the warfare is not really over cultural differences as much as it is over the justification for those differences.

So my basic thesis in all of this is that the problem in America today is not one of religious freedom as much as it is one of religious authority.

In other words, when religious faiths clash, who wins? For example, there are noises being made, particularly in Western Europe, but even in places here in the

United States, to allow the Muslim community to impose Sharia law.

Now, the problem you have there is that the Sharia law, the principles of Sharia law, and the principles of constitutional law, traditional law, common law here in America and in England, they clash.

So when they clash, who wins? So the problem that we have today as Christians is that we're hearing more and more in the media that is advocating that we as Christians have to change what we believe.

This came up pretty strongly on Easter Sunday this year in the

Sunday Review of the New York Times, an article by a gentleman named Frank Bruni.

And he makes a very vigorous attempt to tell Christians that, well, in one sentence he says,

Christians have moved far beyond Scripture when it comes to gender roles. We need to wake up and realize that homosexuality and devout

Christianity are not necessarily, as he calls it, forces in fierce collision.

What he recognizes, and this is a quotation from his column, religion is going to be the final holdout and the most stubborn refuge for homophobia.

And then he says, and I'm quoting someone else, conservative Christian religion is the last bulwark against full acceptance of LGBT people.

And so at the end of his article, he quotes another person who says very bluntly, church leaders must be made to take homosexuality off the sin list.

Now that same position was articulated a few days later by no less than Hillary Clinton.

And she put it this way in the context of actually talking about reproductive health care, women's rights, and so on.

She said this sentence, laws have to be backed up with resources and political will and deep -seated cultural codes.

Listen carefully, religious beliefs and structural biases have to be changed.

Now for us as Christians, these comments are alarming, telling us that we have to change our fundamental beliefs.

That then causes us to have to question where do our beliefs come from and are they worth defending?

I want to repeat our email address if anyone would like to email us a question for Pastor Ron Glass on the homosexual issue, what the

Bible has to say about homosexuality or same -sex marriage specifically. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Also I want to quickly let you know about a phone number. This is not a phone number for calling in questions, but anybody that you know that would like to listen to this broadcast at any time live, if they're not near a computer, they can listen via phone anywhere as long as they have a phone with them at 401 -283 -6754.

That's 401 -283 -6754, and they just need to follow the prompts and press the number 3 for Christian Radio.

So I hope that now even more people start listening to the broadcast since they don't need to be chained to a computer in order to do so.

Pastor Glass, for Evangelical Christianity, what is the foundational issue at stake in the debate over same -sex marriage?

Well as I just said, I think that the foundational issue is one of religious authority more than it is of religious freedom.

What is our authority as Christians? And how does the

American commitment to the separation of church and state affect this debate? Well that's an interesting point because I think that America's experiment in religious freedom, which we call separation of church and state, has been risky.

Now that may sound heretical, but I want you to think about this. Every other great civilization in human history, from Egypt and Samaria in ancient times to the

British Empire in more recent times, has had a state religion. Now there's a reason for that, and that is that that religion was the standard and the final arbiter of ethical and moral practice in their culture.

When a problem comes up, an ethical question, an issue comes up, who do you go to for an answer?

Well, religion has been the answer for that. Without a common religion, there is internal chaos.

And here in America, we've had no official religious authority. In practice, for most of our history, the

Judeo -Christian worldview dominated. And then because of that, it served as our standard. But that's what's happening now.

It's breaking down. And a majority of our culture has abandoned the Judeo -Christian convictions.

So without any longer having that standard of what's right and wrong, we have been abandoned to radical subjectivism, to relativism.

And the problem with that is, it isn't working. So what do we do now? And it's interesting that a lot of liberals like to use that phrase over and over and over again, separation of church and state.

But isn't it true that that whole concept came out of a promise by Thomas Jefferson to Baptists, that they were not going to be forced to change their personal theological convictions by a government -run church like the

Anglican Church did in England? Yes, that's correct. And it is not something that you find in the

Constitution itself. However, the separation of church and state has been enshrined as a principle in American jurisprudence.

So we accept it as sort of a principle of American government.

Well, so if the issue at the root of this controversy over same -sex marriage is authority, what is our authority as Christians?

Well, that's a pretty easy question to answer, Chris. And the answer to that is the Bible, God's Word.

And we as Christians dare not do as what we're being challenged to do, and that is to change our opinions.

Now, many in the liberal religious world, liberal Christianity, have accommodated themselves to these standards, these changing standards.

But that's what distinguishes us as evangelical Christians. We stand upon the authority of the

Word of God. But Pastor Ron, you have to admit that the unbelieving world around us doesn't acknowledge biblical authority.

They see the Scriptures as the root of our bias. So how can we make the case for the relevance of biblical authority in this argument?

All right, well, let me take a little bit of time to try to explain that. I want to start by quoting what the

Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians chapter 1, verses 18 to 20, where he says,

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever

I will set aside. Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age?

Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? And what we find here is a distinct difference between God's truth, the way

God has revealed truth, and the way that the world thinks. So what we have to do as Christians is go back to the

Word of God, and I think we have to begin to do that by understanding something about the whole principle of revelation.

I want to go back to the law of God for just a moment, and we'll take just a little bit of an initial look at this, because the law was

God's initial revelation of right and wrong. It was the civil and religious code of ancient Israel.

And the explanation for this, I think the best explanation for this, clearest, is in Psalm 19.

And what I want you to see here is that our authority, when we say we believe the

Bible, our authority is grounded in the proclamation of the law giver.

And this is a presupposition, granted, but what we believe is that there is a

God, and He can be known. God has revealed Himself in His creation.

That's what it says in the first two verses of Psalm 19. The heavens are telling of the glory of God, and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.

Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. And this is what we call natural revelation.

That is, God revealing Himself in nature. Now I would just say this. If you, any of our listeners, can't get beyond Genesis 1 .1,

in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Then you have no basis for morality, and then there's nothing more that I or anybody can say to you.

We have to operate on some common ground. And for us as Christians, that common ground is certainly that there is a

God, and that the God who exists, the God who has created all things, has made Himself known.

God's revelation begins in His creation, according to this Psalm, and that creation transcends the boundaries of language, that revelation.

Verse 3. There is no speech, nor are there words. Their voice is not heard. This tells us that His world was

His first word to humanity. It pours forth speech. It reveals knowledge. There's no translation that needs to be made.

Creation actually speaks, and it speaks eloquently to people in every language group. And then

He goes on in the next verses to show that it transcends the boundaries of nations as well.

Their lines have gone out through all the world, and their utterance to the ends of the world. And then

He's placed a tent for the sun, and then He describes the sun like a man, a bridegroom, coming out of his chamber, a strong man running his course.

In other words, from horizon to horizon, throughout the entire earth,

God's revelation proclaims His glory. And so all we have to do as human beings is to look, to open our eyes and think.

Look through a telescope at the expanse of the universe. Look through a microscope at the complexity of a single cell or even an atom.

And what you realize is that there has to be a God. And that God who created these things is the very

God who has revealed Himself in scriptures.

You remember the opening words of Psalm 8, O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth.

We can see His majesty through creation. Paul says it this way in Romans 1, the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them, for God made it evident to them.

How? For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes, His eternal power,

His divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

So we're told that none of us have an excuse for not believing in God, because all we have to do is open our eyes and look at the creation, and in the creation we see the invisible attributes of God.

And so our authority is grounded in the proclamation of the lawgiver

Himself. And this is an important thing to add, in the perfection of the law, that the content of the law is perfect.

If you go on and read there in Psalm 19, verses 7 and following, you have a description of the law of the

Lord. Now here are some of the adjectives that are used in those verses. Perfect, sure, making wise the simple, the precepts of the

Lord are right, they are pure, they are clean, they endure forever, they are true, they are righteous altogether, they are more desirable than gold.

And so the content of the law is perfect. That's necessary if we believe in a perfect God, that He would give a perfect revelation.

If He didn't, that would destroy His perfection and His deity, for that matter.

And so what we understand is that the content of the law is perfection, but then we have to look at the intent of the law.

And the intent of the law is transformation. It is intended to be life transforming, verses 7 and 8, restoring the soul, making wise the simple, rejoicing the heart, enlightening the eyes.

It's to have an impact on our lives. It is to be life changing. So that controls what we do with the specific statements and commandments, both from the

Old and New Testament. So, for example, when we come to the issue before us, we go to the very first chapters of the

Bible. Genesis chapter 1, God created man in His own image. In the image of God, He created him.

How? Male and female, He created them. Therefore, we are compelled to believe that the human race is the product of God's creation.

And when He created them, He created them male and female. Then we are told in Genesis 2, 24, that a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

There's the declaration of God with regard to the purpose of a man and a woman.

They are to marry. They are to become one flesh. Well, what happens when, or what does

God think when that is violated? Well, Leviticus chapter 18, verse 22, the law said, you shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female.

That's an abomination. Chapter 20 of Leviticus also, and then verse 13, if a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act and they shall surely be put to death.

Their blood guiltiness is upon them. Now, that's a pretty severe pronouncement, but it's interesting that the

New Testament is also pretty severe in its denunciation of this practice.

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 6, 9, Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor feminine, which refers to homosexuality, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, or drunkards, or revilers, or swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

In fact, Paul says in writing to Timothy that the law is in fact not made for those who are righteous, but rather for those who are unrighteous.

I'm referring to 1 Timothy chapter 1. Paul says, verse 8, the law is good if one uses it lawfully, realizing that in fact the law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, the ungodly and the sinners.

Among them, in verse 10, he names those who are homosexuals. So what we see is that God pronounces his verdict on the what we call homosexuality, the activity of homosexuality.

The authority of the law, therefore, is to shape our thinking. What I'm saying is we have a

God, we have a God who's revealed himself, God has revealed his intention for marriage, God has revealed his displeasure for the abuse of marriage, and he has also revealed his penalty for those who engage in this activity.

Now this isn't just a matter of opinion, but for us as Christians, this is our authority, and that authority is what controls how we think.

So the law was intended to shape our thinking, but that implies this debate is basically academic, a discussion among theologians in an ivory tower.

What's the practical impact of God's law? Well, let me go back to the 19th

Psalm again, because David does indeed address that.

He says this, beginning in the 11th verse, Moreover, by them, that is the law, the words of the law, by them your servant is warned.

In keeping of them there is great reward. Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults.

Keep back your servant from presumptuous sins. Let them not rule over me, then I will be blameless, and I shall be acquitted of the great transaction.

What he's saying here is that the law reflects God's holiness, but the law has a moral purpose.

That is, that it is to change not just the way we think, but it is also to change our behavior, how we live.

So the law provides a warning against violating its principles, but it also provides an encouragement for keeping them.

And so we are to take warning, realizing that it warns us against bad behavior and wrong thinking, but also in keeping them there's great reward.

God rewards us for obedience. And then he asks that question, who can discern his errors?

Jeremiah 17 .9 tells the same thing, because the heart is deceitful, it's exceedingly wicked.

Who can know it? Well, we're not even able to appreciate the depths of our own ignorance and our own sin.

And so David prays in that passage to keep back your servant from presumptuous sins.

And why? Because he goes on to point out that every single one of us are accountable to God.

That's why he closes Psalm 19 with the prayer the way he does in verse 14. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight,

O Lord, my rock and my redeemer. So anybody who's serious about pleasing God, anybody who's serious about wanting to obey

God, then you have to pray in these terms. Lord, let the words of my mouth, the meditation of my heart be acceptable, knowing the sinfulness of my own heart, knowing how

I don't appreciate that, how foolishness is bound up in my heart. I'm driven back to the word of God.

I am driven back to the truth that God has revealed in order to change the way I think and in order to change the way

I act. So that when I stand before God and I'm accountable to him, there will be great reward rather than punishment.

We've got to go to a break right now. If you'd like to join us with a question, this is a live broadcast, so you may email your question now at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Pastor Ron Glass of Waiting River Baptist Church as we discuss further what the

Bible has to say about homosexuality and how we are to respond to same -sex marriage. Tired of box store

Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news. Waiting River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson, and if you just tuned us in on Leading Edge Radio Network on Iron Sharpens Iron, we have as our guest today

Pastor Ron Glass of Waiting River Baptist Church in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island. We're discussing the

Bible, what the Bible has to say about homosexuality and how we are as Christians to respond to same -sex marriage.

And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And picking up on the law of God that you were addressing before the break, Pastor Ron, wouldn't you agree that the vast majority of people reject the demands of God's holiness?

Well, they do, and that's because of the fact that I've already stated the sinfulness of the human heart.

We are all born in Adam. We are all sinners by birth and rebels against God's truth.

And it is only by the grace of God that we come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and that the

Spirit of God enters in and changes the way we think. My concern is primarily at this point for those of us who are

Christians, who are believers. There's so many in our churches who are beginning to compromise, to sort of nibble around the edges and cut corners with regard to this issue, the tremendous social pressure that we talked about before, through the media and even just through their interaction with friends and family and so on.

There's a great deal of pressure to accommodate the whole notion of homosexuality as normative and also homosexual marriage.

In our discussion about God's law with a broader category of biblical revelation in its entirety, aren't we usually really attempting to locate the source of truth?

Well, yes. See, the problem we come up against, we say, well, we believe the

Bible, and those who don't say, well, I don't believe the

Bible. We say, we believe that it's true. And they say, well, we don't believe it's true.

How do we know then? The question comes down to truth. If the Bible is our authority, we have to be convinced that it's true.

Now, I haven't got time here to go in depth into this, but the fact is that our definition of truth is simply that which corresponds to reality.

And a lie is that which either denies or distorts reality. How do we know reality?

Well, as I've just spent time talking about, from a spiritual standpoint on these issues, reality is defined by the

Word of God, by scriptures. And therefore, we go back to the scriptures as truth in written form.

I mean, the Lord Jesus said at the end of his sermon on the mount that we should be perfect, even as our

Father in heaven is perfect. And the fact that God is perfect means that he has given a perfect revelation.

And the Bible itself makes that claim for itself. Let me just give you one example of that.

It's in the 12th Psalm, verse 6. The words of the Lord are pure words, as silver tried in a furnace of the earth refines seven times.

In other words, it's gone through the smelting or refining process seven times, each time skimming off any impurities. The comparison is to just impeccably pure silver.

And that God's Word is perfect. And so by simple deduction, we're compelled to acknowledge that God's Word, the holy scriptures, the

Bible, is the infallible source of truth. And that's then where we end up.

Now, the world reflects that famous question by Pontius Pilate in the trial of Jesus, which is, what is truth?

Well, we answer that question by saying, first of all, that scripture is truth, and it's embodied in the

Lord Jesus Christ, who himself claimed to be the truth and the life. So then it comes down to a question of defending the truth.

Well, Pastor Ron, isn't it true that ever since the 17th century Enlightenment, it's been fashionable to deny that anyone can know anything for sure, which is kind of interesting that it seemed to be the theme of the emerging church, which

I'm not sure if it's as popular as it once was. But I seem to remember that even the

French philosopher, Rene Descartes, I think it may be butchering his name, but he was reduced to speculating on how he knew he existed.

And his conclusion was, I think, therefore I am, comes to mind. So how can we know truth?

Well, that's the problem. You end up in this sort of desperate agnosticism, where you question whether you even exist in and of yourself.

The fact of the matter is that we know truth because God's word is truth, and that is our confidence.

Now, the question then is, how do we go about defending this truth?

And the Bible does, in fact, give us the answer to that question. And this is very important,

Chris. This goes back to something you said right at the opening of our broadcast today.

Ephesians chapter 4, verse 15, Paul says that we are to be speaking the truth in love.

And adding to that is what Peter says in 1 Peter chapter 3, verse 15, when he says, sanctify

Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.

So everything I've said here is basically to say this. We have an infallible source of truth.

That truth is the word of God. That's where the answers are for the questions that concern us at any point in human history.

And for us right now in the 21st century, facing the issue of same -sex marriage and homosexuality in general, we have authoritative,

God -given answers. And we have a right to defend that, and we defend it by going back to the text of Scripture.

All right, I'm going to take this opportunity to take our last station break. So remember, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Ron Glass on same -sex marriage or on homosexuality, the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back. Linbrook Baptist Church on 225

Earl Avenue in Linbrook, IL is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages, enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402, or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

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Welcome back. This is Zion Sharp and Zion on Leading Edge Radio Network.

Our guest today is Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church, and we are discussing the has to say about homosexuality and what we, how we as Christians are to respond to same -sex marriage.

I just wanted to read a question from a listener,

Josh in Riverhead, New York. He says, how do you respond to the comment by those who oppose

Christianity or the Christian view of traditional marriage, biblical marriage, that when they say it's just a piece of paper, why are you getting so upset?

How do you respond to that? Well, I think I spent 45 minutes responding because it is not just a piece of paper.

It is the authoritative revelation from the very one who created the world, created the human race, ordained marriage, and gave the commandments regarding marriage and the abuse of the marriage relationship.

It is sacred truth from the God of all creation.

That's not just a piece of paper. Christine in Atlanta, Georgia asks if you have any thoughts about what will happen to the visible church in America going forward, given the culture around us is so increasingly hostile to Christians holding the biblical view on homosexuality, i .e.,

violent persecution, pastors arrested, the disappearance of the visible church, and or underground churches.

Do you think that, Pastor Glass, that we are going to see that in the near horizon?

Well, I'm not a prophet, so I can't say. I can't rule it out, but I can't say for sure.

I do know this, and this I draw again from that first chapter of Romans, and that is that I believe that the proliferation of homosexuality is

God's sign to a culture that he has given up on it.

If you read carefully those verses that follow, the fact that man suppressed the truth and unrighteousness and did not honor

God, even though they knew him by seeing his creation, and professed to be wise, they became fools.

I mean, there's all kinds of, you know, that kind of thing today. Just think of evolution, think of climate change, all of these where we're hearing this from the educated academic community.

They think they're wise, but they became fools. And so what was the repercussions of that from God's standpoint?

Well, verse 24 of Romans 1, God gave them over to the lust of their heart, to their impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and God gave them over to degrading passions. And he mentions both women who exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and men who abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another.

What is he saying? He's saying, I think, that when you see widespread homosexuality, and you see the acceptance and the advocacy of homosexuality in a culture,

God is telling a society that he has abandoned them. I think it's a lot like Daniel chapter 5, the handwriting on the wall in Belshazzar's Feast, which says, you have been weighed in the balances, and you are found wanting.

And therefore, it's a sober thing to think what that may be in terms of implications for America as a nation, and for the

Church in America. It could very well be that someday the Church is going to be driven underground. However, let me say this, the

Church is not going to be destroyed. God always has his people. He has them today in China, and Vietnam, and in the

Soviet Union. He has them even in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran. There are

Christians, they may have to go underground, but they're there. And I don't think that the Church of Jesus Christ will ever be defeated.

However, the nation, I think, may be in for difficult times if there's not some repentance soon.

Well, how then should we go about defending the truth? Obviously, there needs to be a recognition when we proclaim the gospel to sinners, which would include homosexuals, would include everybody, we have to also recognize and profess that we are sinners who, by God's grace and mercy, have been delivered from those sins and the penalty thereof by the blood of Christ, correct?

Right, that's correct. And we as human beings who are Christians, we Bible -believing Christians, are no better as human beings than anyone else, and that includes homosexuals.

We are all sinners. We rejoice that we've been saved by grace, and we long for those who practice this sin to enjoy that same freedom and peace that we have.

But we don't claim to be superior in any way.

And of course, we have to hold up the banner of Paul's words, where after he finished describing the behaviors of those who would be cast into hell if they did not repent, he did say that including homosexuals, that some of you once were these things, that you've been washed and you've been cleansed and sanctified and so on, correct?

That is absolutely true, and that goes to a question that is often asked, which is that a person who is gay can't change.

I mean, that's a claim that's made. The homosexual community, many in the academic community would say, you know, a person's born that way, and therefore it is immoral, and it should be illegal to counsel somebody to change.

Now, even the President of the United States recently publicly supported outlawing what they call conversion counseling for homosexual young people.

But Chris, the passage you just pointed to is our answer to that, namely that homosexuality is sin, and that in and of itself reminds us that nobody is made that way.

No homosexual is born a homosexual. They make the claim that, well, it's like being black, that freedom to be homosexual is an inherent right, a civil right, because God made us that way, but no,

Scripture tells us God made men and women to be men and women, and that marriage is the binding union of one man and one woman.

So, that then reminds us that we can conform to God's plan.

Now, the fact is that some people, through experiences that they've had from the time that they were young children, have eventually become homosexual.

And what Paul is saying in that passage is that as sinful as that behavior is, he says to the

Corinthians, such were some of you, but you are washed, you are sanctified, set apart, cleaned up, justified, now declared righteous by God in the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. So, the Holy Spirit comes in and does a cleansing job, gives us a spiritual bath, and cleans us up and can restore even the most vile sinner to righteousness.

And that's not just homosexuality. That list is a lot of other things, idolatry and adultery and drunkenness and theft and swindling and all of those things as well.

Yes, one of the greatest sins known to the Church is gossip, and that's included in there. And pride and all of those kinds of things, yes.

God can clean us up. Now, just to touch on something you said about the ability to conform to the law, you of course are talking about through the regenerating power of the

Holy Spirit, correct? Absolutely. Without the regenerating power of the

Spirit of God, we are hopelessly enslaved to the sin in which we were born. We've got about four minutes, and I think you've made a very persuasive case for Scripture as the authority for Christian belief and practice.

We understand that the unbelieving world won't accept what you've said, but we as Christians need to have sound biblical answers.

Would you just spend the rest of our time biblically evaluating some of the claims that the homosexual community often makes?

And obviously, we've got far too brief of time to adequately do that, but if you could just bring up a couple.

Right. Well, I've touched on some of them already, but one of the claims is that Christianity and the

Bible are homophobic, and that our opposition to homosexual marriage is bigotry.

But in fact, I don't even like that term. Homophobic means fear, and we are not afraid.

We as Christians should extend compassion, but the popular notion of compassion today is tolerance or silence, and we don't believe that we should be silent in the face of this.

We do not acquiesce to relativism or self -determination. That ends up in anarchy.

So our position is that we're bound to believe and obey the Word of God. Another issue that sometimes comes up is the

Word of God itself, where it says that homosexuals were to be stoned to death or put to death.

I would just simply remind those who want to throw this in our faces is that capital punishment for homosexuality was a provision of the law, which governed the theocracy of Israel.

And it wasn't the only thing. Capital punishment was imposed for adultery as well.

But the New Testament tells us that we are no longer under law, but we are under grace.

How do we as Christians, then, handle a confrontation with homosexuals?

And I think there's no better thing to do than to follow the example of our

Lord, and I would encourage our listeners to go back and read the first 11 verses of John chapter 8, where he dealt with a woman taken in adultery.

He never dealt with a homosexual in Scripture, but with a woman taken in adultery. And remember, adultery was in that same list with homosexuality.

And he refused to condemn her, and when he stood and faced her by herself, one -on -one, he told her to go and sin no more.

And I think that's what we have to do. Demonstrate that kind of compassion that says, look,

I don't condemn you, but I urge you, go and don't sin any longer.

Well, I just want you to just now conclude with about a minute time what you have most, what's most burdening your heart that you want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners.

Well, I think the most important thing, Chris, is that our evangelical churches have a strong biblical standard that results in a strong biblical answer to these questions that are being asked of us today.

There are churches, and there are many of them around the country today, that are hedging on this.

The pastors won't come out and take a position. They'll lose too many people in the congregation, or they'll lose financial support, or whatever.

And this is why even conservative politicians like in Indiana backed off. They didn't feel the support of people like us as Christians standing behind them saying to them, do the right thing.

And so I think that the church, sound evangelical Bible -believing churches, need to have a sure and certain voice when we speak on and we do need to speak on this issue.

I encourage pastors and church leaders everywhere, develop a strong biblical position, and then stand up for truth.

Amen. And obviously, Pastor Glass and I urge everyone to pray fervently in regard to the

Supreme Court decision that we are expecting to hear, could be any day now before the end of June.

Pastor Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries promised to be back on after that decision again to address the arguments made by theologians who proclaim either to be homosexuals or advocates of homosexuality.

Since he has debated a number of them and written on the subject, he'll be back tomorrow.

We have Pastor Josh Fryman of the Community Baptist Church of Riverhead joining us, and he's going to be discussing the misconceptions non -Calvinists have regarding the doctrines of sovereign grace.

And on Thursday, we have John Sampson, who was a former Word of Faith pastor, who by God's grace has abandoned that heresy and entered into Reformed theology and has thoroughly embraced that, and that is the teaching of the church that he is now pastoring, the doctrines of sovereign grace.

And Friday, we don't have anyone booked yet at this moment, but I'm sure we will, and we'll let you know who that will be as soon as we have the name of that guest and subject.

Pastor Glass, I know that your website is wrbc .us, and I thank you so much for being our guest, and I look forward to having you back often, brother, and thank you so much for all you've done to make this program possible.

Oh, you're quite welcome, Chris. Thank you. And I got cut off yesterday. I want to dedicate the relaunching of Iron Sharpens Iron to my precious wife,

Julie, who went home to be with Christ after nearly 20 years of marriage at the age of 56, and I also am doing this relaunch in memory of a very dear friend,

Pastor Al Stein of the Neighborhood Assembly of God, who went home to be with the

Lord as well very recently in January, in fact, and also

Ken Silva of Uprising Ministries, who was a guest on this program as well. Very often, he also went home to be with his

Lord and Savior for eternity. I do this program in memory of them. And last but not least, my mother -in -law,

Carmen, who just very recently went home to be with the Lord. And I want to conclude this program with the words of Puritan Christopher Love, as I have done many times before in the past when the program originally aired for five years,

I hope you always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. God bless, and I hope you tune in tomorrow.