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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and directed to have in view in Conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host.
Good Afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Monday on this seventh day of November 2016 Election Day Eve and I am delighted to have back on the program a very dear friend and brother in Christ and one of my favorite guests on iron sharpens iron Pastor Bill Shishko, but before I introduce him a very hardy deeply felt Expression of thanks are due to two people who rescued iron sharpens iron From the audio difficulties that resurfaced a couple of weeks ago and that have been plaguing my program For a couple of weeks and sometimes rendering the programs completely inaudible.
I had computer and studio savvy friends laboring with me trying to detect What the root cause? was of these these crackling noises and echoing voices and garbled voices and all kinds of things that were happening and Nobody could get to the root of this and then I had my friend Joe Ignacio come over Who is familiar with studio equipment and a an individual who I don't even know until now Don Woodard who is the director of? dynamic shows comm he is a television producer and A Christian and a childhood friend of my friend.
Dr. James R White of Alpha Omega Ministries. He saw my cry for help on the on the Facebook and Responded with his a gracious offer to spend two hours with me Last Thursday and sure enough after after about 90 minutes of frustrating searches and troubleshooting Trying to find the root cause of the problem He had a hunch and he asked my friend Joe.
Can you see if the iMac? Inner mic or the invisible mic built-in mic is Turned on and Joe found out that yes. It was indeed on he said turn it off and the rerun that we were airing while doing this that was filled with garbled distortion immediately Turned into a crystal-clear program.
So I'm thanking God to this day For their help and I want to once again Thank Don Woodard of dynamic shows comm for all your help and also Joe Ignacio Thanks for all your labors and your willingness to share You're a very valuable time with me in the midst of very hectic schedules.
Well, as I said earlier, I've got on the program today a very dear friend of mine who's actually been a friend Really for the entirety give or take a month or so of my life as a born-again believer in Christ Jesus.
I met pastor Bill Shishko in the 1980s in the mid -1980s when he was visiting What was then Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island? He was visiting as a guest speaker there and Pastor Bill at the time and until very recently was the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island and Pastor Bill and I really hit it off very quickly and I started visiting his the congregation where he pastors when they had Bible conferences and special events and We got to know each other very well and have been very close friends for quite a number of years.
And he has been one of my greatest encouragers and supporters in the iron sharpens iron radio Program. He has radio in his blood in his blood himself and he is a director of a new ministry called Reformation Metro, New York and he's also the host of the weekly live 90-minute call-in talk show a Visit to the pastor's study which premieres on November 26th on WLIE 540 a .m. Radio on Long Island and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron Bill Shishko.
Hey, it's good to be with you. I'm wondering.
Yeah, I'm glad I'm back on the air as well and by the way If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Bill. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. That's CH RIS AR N Z E n at gmail .com.
Before we even go into the heart of our discussion today I want you to tell our listeners because it seems that we have new listeners I'm discovering every week. In the iron sharpens iron audience who are contacting me through email or through Facebook or some other fashion sometimes occasionally even by phone.
Tell us about the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, which is the denomination that you are a member of.
Praise the Lord Jesus Christ. I'm thankful so thankful for a couple of hours with you. I want to talk about Reformation. Metro, New York. But I'd like to take this first hour to give sort of a tour Down memory lane as I put it you you and I will appreciate this because in our small ways.
We've been a part of this swing and I eating histories as a church body in the United States. Certainly one of the most fat in the late night air had been Controversies were over the Christ and what fundamental doctrines USA.
Dr Machen had been a professor of Greek who was the author of the sector Machen journal a major Denomination cited Methodist Church earlier in the time period. That actually that formation of you and then that whole story is is but for our purposes and in this first hour Let me use that Chris a reformed faith or have read reformed or Calvinistic material or who are part of Reformed churches or even Calvinistic churches on on the 20th century and and the early part of the 20s there was within the Orthodox Presbyterian Church will say between the 1930s and And and and and into the 19 particularly the 1930s to about 1950 or so.
There was an internal struggle. And then the struggle was was for practical purposes between a more the more fundamentalist element what we'll call an Evangelical element and an element that really wanted a church committed to the reformed faith in Fundamentalism thank the Lord stood for defending the fundamentals of the faith and in the right sense of the word Militantly so that they were not going to clean we can learn many can and ought to learn however, even dr. Machen himself fundamentals, but he saw their cultural approach there they're rather narrow focusing in on a few doctrines as Missing the broader of the whole and you can read about that that very interesting biography of this have something to do with the.
Division between the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Bible Presbyterian Church.
Yeah, exactly that that would be. He had no problem with dispensational theology. He held to this had certain social mores He wanted upheld in the church for and there were frankly there was power upon.
And it was not support of the Orthodox the other group. What was the so-called evangelicals and these had generally a Formed view of the scriptures. Harold Ockengay was a leader of this group. Carl Henry Who would continue to be a great spoke did much work in which there tended to be more of a dialogue model?
Wanting to deal with with thought commendable and that one many evangelicalism compromised some of its some of its distinctive elements particularly the sufficiency and to be a blurring of Of politics.
And and the Orthodox Presbyterian of American Presbyterian ism Dutch Calvinism and and Scottish Presbyterian ism I'll mention some of the names there, but it really Wanted throughout the 19 through the 1950 wanted to be a very consistently reformed Denomination on the American scene.
And I'll stop there because I don't want to do a monologue. I know you're teaming.
Well, I do have RJ in Westchester County, New York who asks if Machen was one of the pillars of the fundamentalist modernist controversy on the fundamentalist side. Why is it that today you can hardly find a theologically reformed? theologian pastor or congregation that will identify itself as.
Fundamentalist and and and. I think Chris and RJ in many ways Fundamentalism has been its own worst enemy. But also I think today there's actually some fear of using the term because when you think of fundamentalist people will often think of radical Islam or something like that so that so that a strict adherence to fundamental doctrinal tenets Is is equated more with a terrorist Muslim than it is with it with a with a peace-loving Christian so to speak.
So I you know, I it's a huge question, but but I think that's probably where I go with the answer for RJ. That's a good question.
And I'm sure that you would agree with some of the things other than the fundamentals of the faith. Some of the other things that are typically connected with fundamentalism like for instance, I'm sure Knowing you that you do not agree with the modern Ecumenical movement that embraces Roman Catholics no matter who they are as brothers in Christ.
We even have Rick Warren identifying Pope Francis as his Pope and That kind of thing which has the hairs in the back of my neck stand on end.
So yeah, and I think the lightning rod for this Chris was in the night. Right and yet the the heartburn. And I think in a real sense It's almost a metaphor for what for what evangelicalism has battled with and still does.
I.
Think that crossways a lot of reformed or Calvinistic books banner of truth trust. Look at these as it's almost like McDonald's hamburgers. These seven that the banner of truth trust speak and began to both public spark in you had Calvinistic outposts particularly in the south and in particular Baptist churches and certain independent Baptist churches.
They have the guts that the banner of truth trust and and what would come later the Leicester conference in England and the banner of truth conference and In the United States of America Actually peak and then in this Chris fortune and of course that the counterculture Had had all the drugs social actions for a time.
That's what I was a part of. But in the 1960s you had young wanted to go to guided quest. But not a few of them and I was in this categorical kind of late in the game. But not a few of them in the late 1960s and then in the early 1970s became real genuine Christians.
Through what was called the Jesus movement and other things. It was a fascinating stuff. And and there was a radical character of their Christianity were things that that I know. Why do I say all that?
It was at that time that the Reformed Faith little bodies like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church the East church body established their identity on the American scene and Then suddenly you nealius van till who was professor of apologetics at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia dr. Ventura died in 1987 and who developed apologetics.
Section was secular philosophy who died in 1984. Francis Schaeffer had a profound ministry to people apologetics. It was Albert Martin who had pastored a church in Essex Fells, New Jersey for a missionary Alliance Church.
Pastor Martin and the leaders there began to realize there were some missionary Alliance Church that they could not agree with they actually dissolved I believed and then reconstituted some months later as Trinity Baptist Church was in 1967 and here was a powerful Preacher of the Word of God who was clearly and unashamedly Calvinistic in his theology less known 1964 GI Williamson who is a Really sort of like an RC sprole of the pen.
GI Williamson had written a study guide to the Westminster Confession of Faith. That now has been translated into many languages and that that made the Reformed Faith accessible to others. Jay Adams in 1970 with his book competent to counsel applied the Reformed Faith.
I do that the doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture. He applied to counseling and and each of these men and and each of these Segments so to speak of the Christian faith that they that they served that they served.
Each of these men had a powerful impact in the development of the Reformed Faith in the United States. And again, I'll stop I'll catch my breath and let you ask. I know you're teeming with questions.
Well, I have a couple of names to add Ernie Riesinger who was the founder of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle where I'm a member and His successor Walt Chantry if I'm not mistaken Walt Chantry's book today's gospel authentic or synthetic was used of God to draw you into the Reformed Faith.
Was it not?
Doctrinal issues. I can remember in my Pontiac Le Mans at my lunch hours I worked at the first national supermarket reading that book and and having the lights go on and of course Walt Chantry was a graduate of Westminster Seminary, Philadelphia and and Ernie Riesinger little-known element of history.
Al Martin. Pastor Martin had had been wrestling with the issue of the extent of the atonement and he and Ernie Riesinger would meet somewhere midway between Carlisle and Montville, New Jersey and they would talk about doctrine and pray together.
And it was actually Ernie's giving Pastor Martin John Owens volume after Martin worked through that and that's what convinced him of definite atonement. But those those anecdotes incidentally are absolutely fascinating.
Yeah, they are and I was so honored to have the privilege of interviewing Walt Chantry on iron sharpens iron twice. One time when he was sitting right here in my studio in Carlisle, which was a double honor.
So I'm looking forward to having him back on the program. We're gonna go to a our first station break now if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own and there are a couple of people waiting to.
Have their questions asked and answered and we'll get to you as soon as we can. But if you'd like to join them with a question of your own. For our guest Bill Shishko. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please include your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and I understand. If you're asking about a personal or private matter that you may want to remain anonymous I will grant that request.
But if you can we would appreciate it if you could at least. Otherwise give your first name city and state and country. Don't go away. We are going to be right back after these messages.
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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man. If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
We are reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do Than how men view these things.
That's not the best recipe for popularity. But since that wasn't the Apostles priority it must not be ours either. We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and To build up the body of Christ in truth and love.
If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts. Or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750. Or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace.
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Chris Arnzen here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia. And here's my friend. Dr. James White to tell you why. Hi.
I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries. I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor Josh Bison praise mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.
I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Balcom Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what g3 stands for Gospel grace and glory.
For more details go to g3 conference .com. That's g3 conference .com.
Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnz. And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is Bill Shishko director of Reformation Metro, New York.
He's also the host of the weekly live 90-minute call-and-talk show a visit to the pastor's study Which will be debuting on WL ie 540 a .m. Radio on Long Island on November 26th God willing and You can hear that worldwide via live streaming just as you can with iron sharpens iron radio.
If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com before we continue bill with what you were discussing. We do have BB in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who asks.
I Understand that you were saying that there were some dispensational leanings in the Bible Presbyterian Church. But I know Pastors who are not at any way Affiliated with dispensationalism there must be a variety of thought on this.
Can you confirm? Yes, and by the way, I want to thank Linda from Hilltop Lakes, Texas for Encouraging us that the sound is crystal clear via live streaming today. So seems like our friends Don Woodard and Joe Ignacio did a great job fixing the problem.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much Linda for letting us know. Yes, that's and I just want to also put in a good word having said what we were just discussing. Obviously there are Precious brothers in Christ who are dispensationalist.
We're not acting like this is a cult of some kind in fact. One of my biggest financial supporters of iron sharpens iron is waiting River Baptist Church pastor Ron glass who is a thoroughgoing Calvinist but he is a dispensationalist and he Supports my program and sponsors it even though he knows I'm not a dispensationalist and that he that he has a disagreement with me over that.
That's the kind of Biblical ecumenism that we were talking about earlier, isn't it that there are certain things that prohibit fellowship? But there are other things that are tertiary Areas that we need not divide and separate from obviously in congregations.
These things will separate us at times. But as far as fellowship and so on we can have full fellowship with brethren like this.
Right, and of course John MacArthur is another name that many of us would.
Really uphold as a modern-day hero of the faith. And so I don't want anybody to think that we're bashing dispensationalist. We just happen to disagree with them.
Developments with the Reformed faith in the 20th century in the United States of America. Remembering that the Lord says he'll build his church and we're thinking about that aspect of it here. 1970s through the 1980s were a kind of a kind of time of I call it consolidation.
For for reformed churches and various denominations. Including the the so-called reformed Baptists which were developing at the time a lot of the debate then so-called worship wars. You were dealing with a with two D's more and that's an interesting topic.
But for my things to cover the 1990s were really really fascinating that's when you began to see the consolidation of The the reformed faith. Consolidating itself so to speak and in various reformed churches.
That was of course when there was the development of of the reformed Baptists. Of which you were a part largely under the leadership of Al Martin and Walt Chantry and and Ernie Riesinger who remained a Southern Baptist and was actually part of the so-called founders movement.
The reformed faith still is is having its influence and some people regard this either as a blessing others as a bane. But within the Southern Baptist Convention The the Calvinistic convictions of an owl molar and a Tom Schreiner and so on these have had a profound influence within the the Southern Baptist Convention among Presbyterians.
There was a formation of the Presbyterian Church in America 1973 that was a group that came out from the Presbyterian Church of the United States a largely Southern Presbyterian body and the PCA has had a distinct reformed and Evangelical influence in the United States when you think of leaders here you think of R .C. Sproul.
Who's a PCA minister. I think of Tim Keller in New York City who was a PCA minister? And and where I think the the Orthodox Presbyterian Church has put more of an emphasis on. You know our confessional standing and doctrinal issues and and seeing the church built Biblically the Presbyterian Church in America without abandoning any of those things has really focused more on on Evangelism and missions and so on the OPCs eventually as emphasized evangelism and missions, too.
But there's emphasis areas here. The United Reformed Churches of North America were formed and I believe the 1980s the Christian Reformed Churches, which it had a venerable history as a Dutch Calvinistic Church body.
The the Christian Reformed Churches with the back to God hour. Had actually made tremendous inroads through radio ministry and in the 1930s. So yeah, I've had dr.
Joel Niederhood on this program.
Joel, dr. Joel Was on but for a long time with form churches that had a tremendous history there. Anyway, the United Reformed Churches of North America were formed when ministers Realized there were there were weak issue.
There was weak commitments regarding women in the church Regardless of regarding the inerrancy of Scripture and so on so that there was that development. You also had of course Individuals who became very well known for their Reformed commitments and then especially in the 1980s 1990s R .C. Sproul would be among them with his Ligonier ministry John Piper among those not Technically identified as Reformed Baptists.
But John Piper through his ministry at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis and through his outstanding writing Popularized the Reformed faith and and we of course were the beneficiaries of those things the whole Christian counseling and educational foundation that does phenomenal work with Developed and then there were worldview organizations summit ministries and others that may not have been necessarily Particularly reformed in dealing with the doctrine of salvation, but they made application of Reformed insight to the state To to government and so on and so forth.
It's really better. It's really better a Fascinating time and and then of course, there were sad things. Overall, most of your listeners will be aware of what happened with family with family radio network.
That work that had been begun by a Reformed Church's Harold Camping that network which had been a Independable outlet for basic Reformed teaching through conference echoes through its conferences and other things Began to really go south when Harold Camping its director came out with a book 1994 which study 94 question mark which he came out with in 1992 actually Predicting about 99 sure that Christ would come back in 94.
That that happily did not affect every area. Where the Reformed faith had influenced people not everybody could get a family station but those of us who could were in tremendous consternation as. This man who was a it was a very articulate defender of many Reformed distinctives.
Just progressively if I could put it that way just just went down the tubes. Until he became heretical in his in his teaching that Basically, you can't be saved if you're a part of the church, right which utterly turned on its head.
And and we'll there was a counter to that. But let me let me get to the two thousand I'll bet all then you can you and I can chat because this is kind of the turf Chris that you and I are familiar with from the 2000s to the present Reformed a lot of soul-searching and and a lot of Of evaluation of a couple of things number one.
What really is the church? And that's where we began. Christ has given his head over all things the church. Which is his body the fullness of him who fills all in all? There's where the Orthodox Presbyterian Church While it's not been as visible in some things has done in particular in the 1990s did Magnificent work on Thinking about foreign missions from a biblical and reform perspective home missions from a biblical and reform perspective and began producing with Great Commission Publications, which is a joint publishing effort of the OPC with the Presbyterian Church in America some very fine Reformed Sunday school materials and and for your listeners Chris Regardless of their doctrinal or denominational background.
I really urge them to look into the materials of Great Commission Publications not Great Commission's publications. There's one Great Commission and there's one Great great. I think you just put it WWG here is I think that I'd say the distinctive these school materials really are aimed at the different age groups and Whatever else Presbyterians may not do real.
Well, they're pretty and they. So, I mean that was a tremendous benefit with his churches. Presbyterian churches. Some Methodist churches and others many are using this material because of its faithfulness to the scriptures.
And that's why they publish the Trinity Hymnal to don't publish it.
And now you have a church and its ministry. And even though I'm not a Baptist I have profited from them the church and a popular come and while we'd have great Nevertheless, it may be a reformed faith pooled their resources to write responsible in the radio world.
Get in trouble for its director. I'd formerly been with with family radio and we saw the way that that was of Really the very anti carol camping. Anyway, Dan started Redeemer broadcasts. He more broadcast teaching and programming that is faith and the other thing.
They're very much church folk and past job. So that's that faith for dummies in the last what 80 years or so.
Well, I first of all, I want to give a plug.
To.
Redeemer broadcasting by giving their website. It's Redeemer broadcasting org. Very easy to remember Redeemer broadcasting org if anybody listening wants to jot that down and listen later on of course wait till this program is over and I'm sure you'll be blessed by Redeemer broadcasting or one of the things I wanted to bring up.
Because it happened to be a discussion a part of a discussion. I had today over lunch with a pastor he agreed with me that one of the Dangers of modern evangelicalism seems to be a disdain for creeds and confessions and When you were speaking about Harold camping before he was really an anomaly.
Because even though he was had a lot of years In the Christian Reformed Church denomination. He was really an atypical Reformed Elder in that for many years. Even before some of the more controversial things erupted.
He was an anti-confessional Anti-credal kind of guy. I can even remember him wearing his buttons no creed, but the Bible and so on that and People misunderstand what that is. They think that you are elevating Traditions of men or teachings of men on par with the scriptures or even Having them over the scriptures as far as your authority.
But these are just really when they are good confessions. They're really just summaries of biblical teaching, aren't they?
Yeah, exactly. A name of sound doctrine. And and whenever anybody says I believe. They're automatically giving a creed. Credo simply means I believe. And what a confession is or what a creed is statement a written statement of what the scriptures teach.
And If a minister says I I have no creed. But the Bible watch out. Because that pastor is going to have all kind. And if he happens to be the localized Pope in a church You're gonna have to sit in what you do creed, but the Bible is.
Yes, it can come to your soul with a lot of enemies in it.
And that is a creed no creed, but the Bible is a creed.
Is a credo state. Exactly exactly right. And it begs the question. It was the Bible say about all of these different things and and there's where for your listeners when they're wrestling. But what church is to go to ask?
What do you believe church website should post what their doctrinal convictions are so very important. A.
Couple of the other movements within The Reformed Faith that you did not mention And of course these could take a week-long programs to to discuss individually, but two of the movements that have Either had positive or very negative influence into the church at large Have been both Theonomy and the federal vision and I have very good friends Who are in both movements, although I have to admit that I am Very much more opposed to the leanings of federal vision.
Even though I'm not a theonomist. I I still highly respect And really much more at ease Having a theonomist on my program as a guest Whereas the federal vision teaching seems to be a heartbeat away from Rome.
But if you could just give your own comments on those two movements, well, yeah.
I appreciate your bringing that up gradually the application of the whole law of God Including the to every area of life including the state. Greg Bonson was sort of the Child of ruches rush dooney in terms of his teaching on theonomy and his book theonomy would be the textbook for it.
Greg also was in my opinion the greatest exponent of so-called presuppositional apologetics. Theonomy and I'm not quite sure where that is. I think it's kind of diffused. Once Greg Bonson died some years ago, but but you're going to have many the laws given to federal vision is This array, but at least it's it's kind of morphing right now.
The names that have been associated with it in particular are Doug Wilson. But federal vision, I think has been very much a reaction to the subjectivism of some religion going back to people's Feelings as to whether they're saved in their own.
Spiritual experiences unlike the pendulum of a clock. It's gone the opposite direction. It's very objective. If you're baptized you're a Christian and if you're a church member you're a Christian and and and so on and and and.
When you look at it from the perspective of what it's reacting to you can understand it. But like all pendulums it goes too far in that direction. The the other thing is and in various ways really distorts the reformed confessions.
It professes to believe but most significant for the federal vision is its utter confusion and many of the circles on the doctrine of Justification not that everybody who's somehow involved with the federal vision movement so to speak believes this but the confusion of faith and obedience in justification is The ideas of NT Wright in England and others that does.
Yeah, I on my old program.
When I had a debate with a proponent of federal vision and someone who is in strong opposition to it the proponent of federal vision when he was Explaining his understanding of justification. I had to be honest with him and say I really cannot distinguish what you are saying from the Council of Trent's description of justification which is of course for those of Our listeners who don't know what the Council of Trent was.
It was a Roman Catholic reaction to the Protestant Reformation where many of the specific dogmas were laid down that anathematized Those who held to uniquely Protestant teaching, of course, there were other things involved as well that even Protestants would oppose but Some of the things that we hold dear as the pillars of our faith Were denounced as damnable and in fact many people many countless thousands were tortured maimed and murdered because of these Protestant beliefs.
Well, we have enjoyed this time with you Chris, but you're gonna you still gonna let me go on for another hour.
Of course, I am. I think that we've just stretched the tip of the iceberg. I'm looking forward to more conversation. In fact we have to go to our second station break right now and if anybody else would like to join us on the air and I know there are a couple of you still waiting and we look forward to Reading your questions and having them answered on the air.
But if anybody would like to join them, our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com. Chris arnzen at gmail .com. Please give me your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
But you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Bill Shishko. I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio. And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference.
He and I are going to.
Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched at TV and occasional guest on Chris's show.
Think I think that's what it's called. Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta. My new hometown. It is going to be a bang-up conference called the g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Malcolm Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.
We hope to see you there. Learn more at g3 conference .com. G3 conference .com.
Thanks Todd, I think. See you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth. Chris Arnzen here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia. And here's my friend. Dr. James White to tell you why. Hi.
I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries. I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bison praise mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.
I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Malcolm Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what g3 stands for gospel grace and glory.
Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is Bill Shishko director of Reformation Metro, New York. And he's the host of the weekly live 90-minute call-and-talk show a visit to the pastor study which premieres November 26 God willing on WL ie Radio 540 a .m.
Which during daylight hours? Covers all of Long Island all the five boroughs of New York City gets into parts of upstate New York and even gets into parts of Rhode Island and Massachusetts and Northern New Jersey, Pennsylvania Connecticut.
I mean it has a very wide coverage area broadcasting over 10 ,000 watts In daylight hours and that program will be heard God willing every Saturday 12 noon to 1 30 p .m. On WL ie 540 a .m. And we'll also be live streaming globally.
So those outside of those areas I mentioned can listen anywhere you have a computer and we'll be giving you more details on that as that is the topic of our discussion the highlighted topic for this next hour and If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com before I take any more of our listeners questions bill.
I'd like you to just open up this half of the program as I did. With emphasis if I had a text for this hour It would be that that great city Nineveh except I would change Nineveh to that great city, New York.
It's been such a privilege to be a pastor on Long Island in the metropolitan New York area for about thirty five and a half years now and I want your listeners to be struck with the fact that in the metropolitan New York area the five boroughs of the city.
Certainly you have the the eastern part of New Jersey southern part of Connecticut and even Long Island. But but if you just take the the city the five boroughs itself you're looking at you get 20 million people one in every 16 people in the United States of America.
I could put it this way lives in in New York in metropolitan, New York. And. The other thing I want your listeners to be struck with is when you minister in New York Metropolitan New York area you literally are ministering to people from every nation.
There is not a nation in the world that is not represented in Metropolitan, New York some in more scattered ways others with with larger communities. But whether you're dealing with Liberians or whether you're dealing with you condoms or Haitians or Jamaicans or Portuguese or whatever would be they're all Represented in one way or another in that great city, New York.
And the motto of Reformation Metro New York is reach, New York and reach the world.
The.
Did you want me to start. You want to shoot any questions now Chrissy? Well, I watch. Well, let me just take Arnie and Perry County wants to know during my visits to Manhattan It seems very difficult to find on a Sunday truly reformed Congregation to visit for worship.
Why is it that Manhattan seems to be very under represented?
Underrepresented with the reformed faith. Well tell tell Ernie that one for what we're doing. See that's that's precisely it is it's governed by a board of three. Each of whom is part of the Presbytery of Connecticut and Southern New York of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church 1997 our General Assembly, which is the broadest governing body of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church Granted permission to develop a new Presbytery, which is a regional group of churches and we started in 1998 and There have been other other reformed things in New York City.
You have of course Tim Keller at Redeemer Presbyterian Church and and and it's many satellite Churches so to speak in the metropolitan area. You have a United Reformed Churches of North America Congregation that is pastored by Pastor Paul Murphy and I love I love where they are.
They are in Hell's Kitchen in New York City. Because it a lot of reasons why it was called that primarily because it they used to be an area that was a book Ministry in New York City he had Pastor Troy Green who pastors a Congregation a Calvinistic Congregation in Brooklyn and there may be others, but at least these are the ones I know.
But that is really really sparse when you're talking about a city of 20 million people and what's really interesting. Is harking back to the last hour the funding for? Some of these fundamentalist Bible conferences and even for part of the funding for the series the fundamentals of the faith actually came from Conservative churches in New York City in the early in the early 1900s churches that now are very liberal.
So, I mean New York City has had the prayer meeting revival that came here in the middle part of the 19th century. There was the leadership of many fine Reformed and Presbyterian men and now it is a real wasteland and Reformation Metro, New York Wants to kind of have a piece of the pie So to speak and in working with Reformed churches in New York.
But I could tell you more about that in a moment.
You may have some other questions that I just wanted to put in a plug for a church that I discovered A number of months ago. That was the host of the sermon audio conference Manor Church in Chelsea. Manor Pastor Bill Jones is the pastor there.
This is a church that took over a historic Dutch Reformed Church that goes back to the 19th century and It seemed to drift away from its biblical roots and Manor Church really came in and has been used of God to really Transform that place theologically and I just want to I'll give I'll give the website for them.
It's Manor Church dot info. M-a-n-o-r church dot info. Just wanted to give that little plug.
I just see the very fact. You kind of have to scratch your head to come up with it with a name shows that. You know in this area of 20 million people the Reformed faith is not represented the way it should be.
Well. Anyway, as far as the OPC goes and again, the PCA has had a quite an influence through the Redeemer Network the Orthodox Presbyterian Church since we've had a formation of a mission church in Mount Vernon, New York.
We had attempted at one in Brooklyn and and another in Suffolk County in the 1980s and neither of those Really lasted for the long haul. It was kind of a testimony to the particular challenges we have here.
But the Lord has blessed in our region in the formation of the of the OPC in Bohemia. Which is a fascinating check community in about one mile square in Suffolk County. Pastor Mike Ploughman. And they have a they have a real model of a community ministry.
Pastor Ploughman is actually the the chairman of the funeral of the of the Cemetery Association. There and but that gives them opportunities to minister to families. They have a food pantry and minister to the homeless.
That's a really neat kind of a thing. You rarely see a church that could just focus on one square mile for ministry.
But that's the OPC in Bohemia and pastor Ploughman informed me of something that I was totally unaware of. He said there are a group of Roman Catholic Czechs who revere Jan Hus as a an honorable man from history.
Well, obviously the Church of Rome executed him. So that's was quite a surprise to me that There are those Czechs who are Catholic that view Huss as a hero.
Yeah, pastor Ploughman from of the Lord have a reason incidentally for mentioning the specifics I'll get to that a minute. Christo array OPC, which was dissolved some years ago was started to Elmont. Which is the largest a second largest Hispanic concentration on Long Island?
And then most of those folks ended up going to the OPC in Franklin Square. I think the opportunity Chris to work on WL ie Which is a predominantly Spanish speaking station is a distinct blessing. I'm hoping that we can somehow interface our our Spanish speaking reformed Christians and that station.
We have an OPC in Queens and in Freshmeadow, Queens. Which which is led by actually my son Jonathan Shishko. And and that's our that's the OPCs for a into inner city into inner city urban missions and.
Then we have in Syosset the the Trinity Church in Syosset which is a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church led by pastor Ben Miller and. And the reason I highlight highlight these is that two things number one.
You really see how God has given men to to develop Distinctively reformed and Presbyterian ministries in Metropolitan New York, that's number one number two we suffer because it costs so much to do church planting in New York and The Redeemer Network seems to have tapped into a lot more money than we have.
But Reformation Metro, New York is a way to get the word out about what we're doing. And of course largely through the radio program that I'll tell you about in a minute. But I want to encourage your listeners whether it's these men or pastor Jonathan Holst who is from Wales.
Who pastors the OPC in Hamden, Connecticut? Sam Chung who is a Korean Christian who is working with a church in Queens hoping to get his own Congregation to pastor. I've already mentioned pastor Miller and Jonathan Shishko and Mike Ploughman John Mallon who's part of our Presbyterian.
I think you interviewed John. I think Chris, right? Which one John Mallon the Christian counselor? No, I have not.
I think I think I contacted him and somehow it slipped through the cracks, but I have not.
And he's been a big help within the churches here and then other men that we have Dick Gerber who's an older man. He's a few years older than I am. Dick was the associate general secretary for for home missions for oh many many years and and is a very knowledgeable in church planning.
So we have within our within our Presbytery we have a really quite and Ministries that they work with in churches that they work with and Reformation Metro New York is designed to give more visibility to them.
It's also hopefully to raise more funds for the church planning that's projected. But it's also to get the word out to people about this area.
Yeah, there are as you may have encountered as well there are a number of Christians evangelical Christians.
Who.
Say that why are you constantly dragging up this word? Reformation from the dark ancient dusty past we are far beyond that Roman Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church is no longer torturing and executing Protestants.
Let us join arms in this day and age of of immorality like we've never experienced before. Let us Get the laws passed that condemn this and that let us get officials elected here and there that will be our Champions to rid society of all these moral ills.
And we've got to stop This division with our Roman Catholic friends now. The world the Reformation really is not over in regard to what divides us. Is it?
Cobelligerence in certain the problem if I think there's better ways to spend your time being part of protest against against the killing I think increasingly as Christians using the big of whatever stripe are being opposed in our country.
We will see what we do in other nations of the earth where when it comes to defending One's rights and promoting justice Roman Catholics and Protestants will to some extent work together so that that's a coal belligerent, but not allies when it comes to doctrine and.
Here again, we're going back to the Three legs of the stool as I shared with you in an email earlier today. Chris, but something else.
Are the scriptures the final and the sufficient authority for faith and life or is it scripture plus tradition? Huge difference and especially in a milieu a culture that that is is. Really raising the question of authority you cannot in any sense of the word unless you've got severe vision problems.
Say that we are allies with one group that says the scriptures alone and final authority and sufficient and the other that says. This is scripture plus tradition. The second leg of the stool and the one we usually think of is how is a person?
How does a person become right with God and for the Roman Church? And and with it with the peril of anathema. Given to all those who differ it is essentially our faith plus our grace infused obedience grace infused obedience grace that comes from the church and so.
Justification is a process and it's a process that's never really complete in this life. And it's a process that we contribute to our works. That is diametrically absolutely diametrically opposite the biblical teaching that a person is justified by faith alone in Christ alone the New Testament never speaks of people in the process of being justified.
It says that they're that they are justified by faith a huge difference and and and and and frankly I mean, this is for a whole other day, but the very fact that even supposedly Reformational Protestants would say there is no difference with the Roman Catholic Church on this or it's not an issue.
What that really says is it is a very very weak view of what? Salvation is and then the third that we don't think about very much is that for the Protestants every believer was a priest. They still maintained that there was a ministry that there were elders that they were that there were deacons.
But but these were not priests they were the each believer. Is it where the church is called a holy priesthood and Peter and and therefore you don't go to the separate guy behind the screen for a confessional you go to Christ and.
Even that that whole concept of elevating a priesthood in a particular way. Made kind of a buffer between the individual and Christ. So and then and then the larger question larger issues why I love the term ongoing biblical Reformation is that the Reformation was about going back to the scriptures about everything I think is I think is Kevin the young put it one of his posts last week.
He said that you know, the the call of the Reformation wasn't so much forward as backward. What do the scriptures say and and and in truth? What did the early church say about things but that wasn't the final authority whereas for the Church of Rome.
It's it's really it's it's the Magisterium, it's the declarations of the church today. Regardless in many ways of what the scriptures say. So yes. Ongoing biblical Reformation the word is Semper Reformanda always reforming.
We have a listener bill in Slovenia and I'm going to slightly edit his question because he mentions a specific pastor in church. And I'd rather not do that right now but I will incorporate his question into a broader question.
He seems to be concerned that theistic Evolution is a presence amongst some professedly reformed churches. He wants to know how would this view? Be compatible with Orthodox Christianity.
It isn't so. The Orthodox Presbyterian Church has gone on record as standing against theistic evolution and any of its emanations. Theistic evolution In its most crass sense is is the theory of evolution with putting God and and that simply is is not.
It's not sufficient. Kind of a ruse in a way. The scriptures clearly teach and I don't preach into the choir here. The scriptures clearly teach. The New Testament teaches that there's a literal Adam and so if a person is going to adopt the a person's going to really can see Adam and Christ as the two great personages of history.
And you know an Adam as in one man's Creation is a very raw challenge. To what both would you say that. It appears to me that.
There is a lot of growing sympathy towards theistic evolution by some who profess to be reformed because there is historically a connection between the academic world and reformed theology and perhaps people are trying to Not want to they don't want to appear out of step with modern science and so on so they unfortunately Buy into the fact or buy into that.
These are facts. This is a better way of putting it. They seem to just be swallowing what modern scientists say. But they're completely ignoring the fact that there are scientists some of them who are not even Christian who are Distancing themselves from evolution because they can't find any scientific evidence for it.
Yeah, exactly.
You know Chris I've said and I love learning. I have for many years people talk about the accrediting agent I and I realize there's financial issues and all of the stuff in it, but but to my rather simple mind There's one accreditation age to the church.
Is the seminary an instrument to form men who are faithful men will labor I and again? I don't want to be cavalier in all of this. But there is a point have to say that wonderful Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale.
We're actually no garments at all. Everybody is to find out one little voices, but two things like the theory of evolution gender issues in our culture fully realizing that sin creates gender identity issues.
I'll take that away. We're going to have to say easily even within the world of a but there are Pages. Tom Wolfe was famously known for bonfire the vanities. Thomas Wolfe is in a deranged form in that Absolutely fascinating book so it's not a historical novel.
It's not a history book, but it's kind of historical commentary. He takes to task Charles Darwin and the 20th century known Chomsky who because of their acceptance even though they realized That Darwinian evolution cannot occur and in that book give it away.
You come to the last come to the last two pages Tom Wolfe, but the only ones.
Wow, I gotta get a hold of that book. By the way, Joe in Slovenia Thank you so much for submitting a question and please keep spreading the word about iron sharpens iron in Slovenia and also spread the word about a visit to the pastor's study Which is debuting God willing November 26th, so be great.
If.
Pastor Bill actually receives phone calls from Slovenia because Pastor Bill's show is going to be a live Call-in show. So what you're gonna look right exactly. And we're going to our final break right now.
And if anybody would like to join us our email address was Chris Ornson at gmail .com. We still have a couple of people that I haven't gotten to yet and we will get to you as soon as possible. But Chris Ornson at gmail .com is the email address and please give us your first name your city and state and country of residence.
Unless this is a personal and private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Bill Shishko. Iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars a year-round Bible conference and retreat center.
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Calm that solid rock remodeling. Calm solid rock remodeling. Bringing a new life to your home. Welcome back. This is Chris Orns. And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes in the lab in the next half hour to come.
Our guest has been and will continue to be Pastor Bill Shishko, and he is the director of Reformation Metro, New York. And he is the host of the soon-to-be Debuting broadcast a visit to the pastor's study.
Which is near and dear to my heart because I can remember years ago when Pastor Bill was a client of mine on WMCA 570 a .m. Radio and he would come into the studio with me in New Jersey and we would record live actually, we broadcast a live broadcast and Have a visit to the pastor's study and we would also have recordings of handles Messiah on a number of Christmases that were between 90 minutes and two hours long.
We might even had a couple of three hour programs as I recall. But there was a lot of reminiscing and a lot of nostalgia for me connected with this before I returned to our interview.
Want to remind our listeners about a conference that I will be attending and representing iron sharpens iron. That's the doctrines of grace conference sponsored by the Alliance of confessing evangelicals in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, November 11th and the 12th.
Speakers include. Dr. Joel Beeky Anthony Carter and Tony Morita. Two of those speakers have been guests on iron sharpens iron, especially dr Beeky has been on many times and was just on recently. He is certainly one of the bright lights of teaching in our day and age and He is the also the founder of Reformation heritage books and just a really powerful preacher and teacher.
And if you'd like more details about attending the doctrines of grace conference on November 11th and the 12th in Quakertown, Pennsylvania Go to Alliance net org Alliance net org and click on events at the top of the page and the very first event that will pop up is the doctrine of doctrines of grace conference so I hope to see you there and please introduce yourself to me at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth if you if you are in the listening audience today and and are going there as a Result of hearing these promotional messages for that event.
So I look forward to meeting you. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com if you care to ask a question of Pastor Shishko on anything in regard to either Reformation Metro, New York his radio program or even anything involving reform theology in general.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. So tell us about the soon-to-be-launched. God-willing Visit to the pastor's study.
Thanks, Chris. Well Reformation Metro, New York. Or churches a church minister production of vimeos I don't know theology class of that that would be farther down off more than we can chew In the works is what we're calling Reformation seminary of the air that will be taking the Westminster Confession of Faith that's adopted by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
Putting it breaking it down. We 11 chapters per year and in bite-sized Interactive ways of and and represent after that as well one of the things that that would be used for actually be archived and it will be Something that could actually be used in connection with officer training.
So you have something for pastors. Something for the the training of elders and deacons in the church and then the one you've mentioned Oh, which is my darling for right now a visit to the pastor's study.
Which will debut God willing on November 26th, Saturday, November 26th on WLIE radio, which is 540 a .m. For those of you in the in the New York and you're right Chris. Is that quite the coverage? I picked it up in Hartford, Connecticut and Throughout all of Long Island and then most of Manhattan and so on but to WLIE WLIE 540 a .m.
Dot-com. Dot-com think that I've done over the years since I began on the pastorate in 1979. Back, then I was in a station on Saturdays. Interestingly, I think like between 10 and 11 or something. And in North Charleston and did a visit to the pastor's study call-in program and The Lord used that in that area and then of course Chris you and I have done similar things through WMCA radio.
This enables me to do the telephone talk program. Between 12 and 1 p .m. On Saturdays and then between 1 and 1 30. There's an additional 30 minutes and Actually at this point we're looking at making that more of a commercial program on the theme of God and your health, but We're still in process of working on that.
But at least 12 to 1 o 'clock a visit to the pastor's study and I want to give your listeners the phone number. They can use so they can write it down because I'm anxious to get their phone calls. On the phone number to a visit to the pastor's study six three one.
Preceded by a one one six three one nine five five five four zero zero one six three one nine five five five four zero zero. Beginning November 26 dial that number. You'll get a visit to the pastor's study the this program Chris Is to bring pastoral ministry to the radio.
This is not the Bible answer man. This is not a guy talking with you about how to manage your funds. Although questions like that may come up. It's what people would expect when they visit a pastor's study and sadly It less and less.
Two pastors make themselves available as pastors. They tend to have other duties that they do but this kind of brings it on kind of an old-school Pastor and let's people visit him via the media will do there'll be various things.
Some of the shows may be more like you do with some interviews at the beginning. Others I'll be having local local probably beginning with Orthodox Presbyterian ministers and we'll be chatting about some things and people can listen over our shoulders.
But in most cases I'll start off with dealing with a pastoral issue like like Marriage divorce issues or or depression is an issue or church Disciplinary issues or dealing with cults those kinds of things and so there'll be the so-called Monologue and then then the questions will will come in through that.
Obviously more as we develop a listenership, but that will be beginning God willing November 26th From 12 noon to 1 p .m. WLIE which hails from Ronkonkoma, Long Island and Especially any of your listeners who speak Spanish should check out WLIE 540 a .m. Dot-com and They'll find an assortment of programming.
I'm not sure if any of its reformed, but at least they'll find out about about things being done on WLIE but it's all under the theme of Everyone needs a pastor and I'm my hope from this is that number one will get listeners from.
This is the area in which I serve as a regional home missionary. And we will get people who are interested in either starting reformed churches or bringing about ongoing biblical Reformation to the churches that they're in or just as you mentioned are interested in the reformed faith.
And I'm looking forward to following up pastorally with all of those things. I've been encouraged to maximize my pastoral experience in these years as regional home missionary. That will do that. The other is that when listeners because you can stream on WLIE Other areas as you do.
I don't know what we would do with people from Slovenia. I'd have to do some real checking about churches over there. But the goal is to get people into faithful churches wherever they are. Remember, we're building on the theme of the church.
Let me at this point mention to Chris That God will be simulcast on Redeemer broadcasting and as you mentioned last hour people can access that through Redeemer broadcasting org.
And.
Redeemer is a non-commercial Christian network and since the first hour will be non-commercial we'll be able to simulcast this and all of the Redeemer terrestrial stations and Those who stream through Redeemer will be able to pick this up so it will really have an outreach throughout the nation and the world and Particularly to the churches of what we call the Napark churches North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council and then two other sites, although I'm not pushing them a lot because I have to update them but just look up ReformationMetroNewYork .org and They'll get updates on the work of ReformationMetroNewYork and then also visit the PastorsStudy .org.
In time, there'll be a blog there once a week. It'll be a short thing, but that will be another way by which people can stay in contact with me.
And I learned having been the only English program for a time on WNYG Radio on Long Island when it started off as an English-speaking contemporary Christian station. It was purchased by a Spanish network Radio Contico Nuevo and I was the only English-speaking Christian program on there.
And I made it a point to always let people know if you hear Spanish programming when you tune in. Don't be alarmed. You don't have the wrong station. Just keep listening. And in fact in your case if you hear Hindu programming don't be alarmed because there's a Hindu program on immediately before directly before your program, so hopefully there'll be Hindu listeners who.
Embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm already praying about that. I wasn't to Christ. That's great. This is my last name Shishko sh I Shko shishko dot and then the sh ko dot or you can use gmail .com.
I'd like your listeners who are listening right now Just to shoot me an email quickly and if you're interested in the printed material on Reformation Metro, New York I'd be glad to send it to you. We can add you to our our database of people who are following that work, but I'd love to hear from your listeners because You're you're emphasizing Reform distinctives and kind of a broader sense and and how that intersects with with unbelief and aberrant forms of Christianity.
What we're doing is kind of the other side of the coin it's how the Reformed faith works itself out in pastoral ministry and church ministry and so there's there's definitely a Symbiosis between between your listeners and ours Chris.
Well, we do have a listener who's using an alias and The alias is revenant by grace. So I don't know where he is. Writing from what city state or country probably someplace in New York, and he's afraid of the mafia.
I Didn't know that the mafia was getting upset about the intrusion of evangelical Christianity into their.
That's right.
Well revenant by grace asks. He says dr. Shishko. Do you have a doctorate yet? He says could you please comment on the reformed aspects of David Platt's Theology. He is the president of the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention.
He seems to have some reform leanings, but also recently changed some policies regarding missionary qualifications to allow those who affirm the gift of speaking in tongues intelligible speech he has in parentheses as Qualified for missionary service with the IMB.
Thanks. I wasn't aware of the last thing.
I do get the Southers pleased when they kind of like we talked about that radical counterculture. The radical mindset of people converted out of the counterculture I think has it is kind of its repristination in the David Platt's and others.
I wasn't aware of this current development and Therefore don't want to comment on it. But if that's true, I would be deeply saddened by it. The idea that the gift of is is really really misguided and wrong for this reason the gift of tongues was essentially the gift of speaking the Word of God by immediate revelation in a foreign language and 1st Corinthians 14 14 Paul says when I what I hear you as long as I pray when I pray in a tongue or My spirit prays or the Holy Spirit in me prays, but my mind uses the Greek word Ah car passes unfruitful and it's a technical language for the bypassing of Paul's Basically his Greek Hebrew vocabulary so to speak his own Vocabulary database so to speak so taking over his mind and vote at what that's developed a non Biblical less than biblical or non biblical.
I would happen by the way revenant by grace.
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It's just a really excellent size to carry around and visitations and Not small enough to fit in a shirt pocket. But you could fit it in a coat pocket or easily fit it in a briefcase. By the way, I apologize if you're a woman because I called you a he I know and you may be a woman if you Are a woman you could easily fit it in most purses and pocketbooks as well.
But if you would email us your full name and mailing address, you will be getting one of those.
NASB.
Bibles in the very near future. God willing. And thanks for writing something about that whole issue of The sign gifts.
View it in time. I'd view very differently those churches and pastors and individuals who were already Charismatic or Pentecostal who have come to the doctrines of grace. I view them differently than those people who?
Become Charismatic or Pentecostal and I'm not saying that. I think that it's okay to remain in error because I disagree with.
Continuous view or the non cessationist view. But do you share that? I mean, isn't there a difference that you see between somebody. Because obviously as we all Go through the sanctification process over Sometimes decades, in fact, we were supposed to be going through it until we're in heaven.
But.
There is a growth that we should be patient with in individuals as far as their understanding of biblical truth.
Chris I've been impressed for you away from the war on the other hand. He actually if I could put it this way, it's almost like he had colitis when he realized how Tragic, it was that these were people without a shepherd now.
They had shepherds, but they were false shepherds. So they weren't shepherds and that's got to be if I could put it this way the rank-and-file of people who are Under any under the influence of any religious system you take them from where they are and move them along.
And I think the other thing that's been helpful for me Is is to is to is to hear. I've heard put in various ways. The charismatic movement is in one sense the payment for the unpaid bills of the church.
We have been all very often. This is something to consider on one of your future programs. We've been beset by what's been called reformed deism where you have a sovereign God up there but he really doesn't impact the lives of people today and.
And it breeds a deadness and a sterility and again pendulum, right? You've got you're gonna have a reaction to this that can come out and things like the charismatic movement.
Take people from where they are. No, what do you make of some of those who defend the charismatic movement? Who will use Martin Lloyd-Jones as Someone who shared their convictions on the sign gifts. Oh, it's what dr.
Lloyd-jones, I think are urban legends regarding his supposed support for certs on the other hand of it. Essentially a duck the and the giving of the spirit is material on the ceiling of the spirit and his commentary on Ephesians One is pure Pentecostal ism.
It is not faithful to the text. But it but in fact actually I've written an article called the those ceiling and witnessing work of the Holy Spirit That is available through Greenville Seminary that deals with this.
But yes, sadly, there's an example where dr Lloyd-jones is Welsh it picks Is is Welsh.
Experientialism so to speak I'm afraid prevailed over solid theology. And when you say he was untrained he was an MD though.
He was terrific he was a diagnostic.
Right. Well, uh, I just want to make sure that we give your websites there is Reformation Metro NY Org Reformation Metro NY for New York org. You can also go to visit the pastors study org. Visit the pastor study org.
Do you have any other contact information that you can't share?
I would love it. Those websites got to be updated. I'd rather people just email me at shishko sh is a work or I'd love to hear from your list apparently.
Great and if you could remain on the phone after we go off the air because I just want to say a final greeting to You brother and I want to thank everybody who listened to today's program. I want to thank again all of you who prayed with me for the audio problems of the plaguing the program to be rectified as they have been obviously and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior Than you are a sinner.
We look forward to hearing from you and your questions tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.