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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian
scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world
today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.
So one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we
converse with and directed to have in view in Conversation to make one another
wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.
And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.
Now, here's our host.
Good
Afternoon.
Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.
And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.
This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Monday on
this seventh day of November 2016 Election Day Eve
and I am delighted to have back on the program a very dear friend and brother in Christ and one of my favorite
guests on iron sharpens iron Pastor Bill Shishko, but before I introduce him
a very hardy deeply felt Expression of thanks are
due to two people who rescued iron sharpens iron From the audio
difficulties that resurfaced a couple of weeks ago and that have been plaguing my
program For a couple of weeks and sometimes rendering the programs
completely inaudible.
I had computer and studio savvy friends laboring with me trying to detect
What the root cause? was of these these crackling noises and
echoing voices and garbled voices and all kinds of things that were happening and
Nobody could get to the root of this and then I had my friend Joe Ignacio come over
Who is familiar with studio equipment and a an individual who I don't even know until
now Don Woodard who is the director of?
dynamic shows comm he is a television producer and A Christian
and a childhood friend of my friend.
Dr. James R White of Alpha Omega Ministries.
He saw my cry for help on the on the Facebook and Responded with his
a gracious offer to spend two hours with me Last Thursday and sure enough
after after about 90 minutes of frustrating searches and
troubleshooting Trying to find the root cause of the problem He had a hunch and he asked my
friend Joe.
Can you see if the iMac? Inner mic or the invisible mic built -in mic is
Turned on and Joe found out that yes.
It was indeed on he said turn it off and the rerun that we were airing while doing this that was
filled with garbled distortion immediately Turned into a crystal -clear program.
So I'm thanking God to this day For their help and I want to once again Thank Don
Woodard of dynamic shows comm for all your help and also Joe Ignacio
Thanks for all your labors and your willingness to share You're a very valuable time
with me in the midst of very hectic schedules.
Well, as I said earlier, I've got on the program today a very dear friend of mine who's actually been a
friend Really for the entirety give or take a month or so
of my life as a born -again believer in Christ Jesus.
I met pastor Bill Shishko in the 1980s in the mid -1980s when he was visiting
What was then Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island?
He was visiting as a guest speaker there and Pastor Bill at the time and
until very recently was the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island and
Pastor Bill and I really hit it off very quickly and I started visiting his the congregation
where he pastors when they had Bible conferences and special events and
We got to know each other very well and have been very close friends for quite a number of years.
And he has been one of my greatest encouragers and supporters in the
iron sharpens iron radio Program.
He has radio in his blood in his blood himself and he is a director of
a new ministry called Reformation Metro, New York and he's also the host of the weekly
live 90 -minute call -in talk show a Visit to the pastor's study which premieres on
November 26th on WLIE 540 a .m. Radio on Long Island
and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron Bill Shishko.
Hey, it's good to be with you.
I'm wondering.
Yeah, I'm glad I'm back on the air as well and by the way If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for
Pastor Bill.
Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
That's CH RIS AR N Z E n at gmail .com.
Before we even go into the heart of our discussion today I want you to tell our listeners because it
seems that we have new listeners I'm discovering every week.
In the iron sharpens iron audience who are contacting me through email or through Facebook or some other
fashion sometimes occasionally even by phone.
Tell us about the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, which is the denomination that you are a member of.
Praise
the
Lord
Jesus
Christ.
I'm
thankful
so thankful
for a
couple of hours with you.
I want to talk about Reformation.
Metro, New York.
But I'd like to take this first hour to give sort of a tour Down memory lane
as I put it you you and I will appreciate this because in our small ways.
We've
been a
part of this swing and
I eating
histories
as a
church body in
the United States.
Certainly one of the most fat in the late
night air had been
Controversies
were
over
Christ and what
fundamental
doctrines
USA.
Dr
Machen had been a professor of
Greek
who
was the author
of
the sector Machen
journal a major Denomination
cited Methodist
Church earlier in the
time period.
That actually that formation of you
and then that
whole story is is but for our purposes and in this first
hour Let me use that Chris a reformed
faith or have read reformed
or Calvinistic material or who are part of Reformed churches or even
Calvinistic churches on on the 20th century and and
the early part of the 20s there was within the Orthodox
Presbyterian Church will say between the 1930s and And and and and into
the 19 particularly the 1930s to about 1950 or so.
There was an internal struggle.
And then the struggle was was for practical purposes between a more the more
fundamentalist element what we'll call an Evangelical element and an element that
really wanted a church committed to the reformed faith in
Fundamentalism thank the Lord stood for defending the fundamentals of the faith
and in the right sense of the word Militantly so that they were not going to
clean we can learn many can and ought to learn however,
even dr. Machen himself
fundamentals, but he saw their cultural approach there they're rather narrow
focusing in on a few doctrines as Missing the broader of
the whole and you can read about
that that very interesting biography of
this have something to do with the.
Division between the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Bible Presbyterian Church.
Yeah, exactly that that would be.
He had no problem with dispensational theology.
He held to this had certain
social mores He wanted upheld in the church for
and there were frankly there was power upon.
And it was not
support of the Orthodox
other
group.
What was the so
-called evangelicals and these had generally a
Formed view of the scriptures.
Harold Ockengay was a leader of this group.
Carl Henry Who would continue to be a great spoke did much work
in which there
tended to be more of a dialogue model?
Wanting to deal with with thought
commendable and that one
many evangelicalism compromised some of its some of its distinctive
elements particularly the sufficiency and to be a blurring of Of
politics.
And and the Orthodox
Presbyterian of
American
Presbyterian ism Dutch Calvinism and and Scottish Presbyterian ism
I'll mention some of the names there, but it really Wanted throughout the 19 through
the 1950 wanted to be a very consistently reformed Denomination
on the American scene.
And I'll stop there because I don't want to do a monologue.
I know you're teaming.
Well, I do have RJ in Westchester County, New York who asks if
Machen was one of the pillars of the fundamentalist modernist
controversy on the fundamentalist side.
Why is it that today you can hardly find a theologically reformed?
theologian pastor or congregation that will identify itself as.
Fundamentalist
and and
and.
I think
Chris and
RJ in many ways
Fundamentalism has been its own worst enemy.
But also I think today there's actually some fear of using the term because when
you think of fundamentalist people will often think of radical Islam or something like that so that so that a
strict adherence to fundamental doctrinal tenets Is is equated
more with a terrorist Muslim than it is with it with a with a peace -loving Christian so to speak.
So I you know, I it's a huge question, but but I think that's probably where I go with the answer for RJ.
That's a good question.
And I'm sure that you would agree with some of the things other than the fundamentals of the faith.
Some of the other things that are typically connected with fundamentalism like for instance, I'm sure
Knowing you that you do not agree with the modern Ecumenical movement that
embraces Roman Catholics no matter who they are as brothers in
We even have Rick Warren identifying Pope Francis as his Pope and
That kind of thing which has the hairs in the back of my neck stand on end.
So yeah, and I think the lightning rod for this Chris was in the night.
Right and
yet
the the
heartburn.
And I
think in a
real sense It's almost a metaphor
for what for what evangelicalism has battled with and still does.
I.
Think that
crossways a lot
of reformed or
Calvinistic books banner of truth
trust.
Look at these as it's almost like McDonald's hamburgers.
These seven that the banner of truth trust
speak and began to both public spark
in
you had
Calvinistic outposts particularly in the south and in particular Baptist churches and certain
independent Baptist churches.
They have the guts that the banner of truth trust and
and what would come later the Leicester conference in England and the banner of truth conference and In
the United States of America Actually peak
and then in this Chris fortune
and of course that
the counterculture
Had had all
drugs social actions for a time.
That's what I was a part of.
But in the 1960s you had young
wanted
to go to
guided quest.
But not a few of them and I was in this categorical kind of late in the game.
But not a few of them in the late 1960s and then in the early 1970s became
real genuine Christians.
Through what was called the Jesus movement and other things.
It was a fascinating stuff.
And and there was a radical character of
their
Christianity were things that
that I know.
Why do I say all that?
It was at that time that the Reformed Faith
little bodies like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
the East church body
established their identity on the American scene and Then suddenly you
nealius van till who was professor of apologetics at
Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia dr. Ventura died in 1987 and who
developed apologetics.
Section was secular philosophy who
died in 1984.
Francis Schaeffer had a profound ministry to people
apologetics.
It was Albert
Martin who
had pastored a
church in Essex Fells, New Jersey for a missionary Alliance Church.
Pastor Martin and the leaders there began to realize there were some missionary
Alliance Church that they could not agree with they actually dissolved I believed and then reconstituted some
months later as Trinity Baptist Church was in 1967 and here was a
powerful Preacher of the Word of God who was clearly and unashamedly
Calvinistic in his theology less known 1964 GI Williamson who is a
Really sort of like an RC sprole of the pen.
GI Williamson had written a study guide to the Westminster Confession of Faith.
That now has been translated into many languages and that that made the Reformed Faith accessible to
others.
Jay Adams in 1970 with his book competent to counsel applied the Reformed Faith.
I do that the doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture.
He applied to counseling and and each of these men and and each of these
Segments so to speak of the Christian faith that they that they served that they served.
Each of these men had a powerful impact in the development of the Reformed Faith
in the United States.
And again, I'll stop I'll catch my breath and let you ask.
I know you're teeming with questions.
Well, I have a couple of names to add Ernie Riesinger who was the founder of Grace Baptist Church in
Carlisle where I'm a member and His successor Walt Chantry if I'm not mistaken Walt
Chantry's book today's gospel authentic or synthetic was used of God to draw you into the
Reformed Faith.
Was it not?
Doctrinal issues.
I can remember in my Pontiac Le Mans at my lunch hours I worked at the first national
supermarket reading that book and and having the lights go on and of course Walt Chantry was a graduate of
Westminster Seminary, Philadelphia and and Ernie Riesinger little -known element of history.
Al Martin.
Pastor Martin had had been wrestling with the issue of the extent of the atonement and he and Ernie Riesinger
would meet somewhere midway between Carlisle and Montville, New Jersey and they would talk about doctrine and
pray together.
And it was actually Ernie's giving Pastor Martin John Owens volume
after Martin worked through that and that's what convinced him of definite atonement.
But those those anecdotes incidentally are absolutely fascinating.
Yeah, they are and I was so honored to have the privilege of interviewing Walt Chantry on iron sharpens
iron twice.
One time when he was sitting right here in my studio in Carlisle, which was a double honor.
So I'm looking forward to having him back on the program.
We're gonna go to a our first station break now if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own
and there are a couple of people waiting to.
Have their questions asked and answered and we'll get to you as soon as we can.
But if you'd like to join them with a question of your own.
For our guest Bill Shishko.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Please include your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and
I understand.
If you're asking about a personal or private matter that you may want to remain anonymous I will
grant that request.
But if you can we would appreciate it if you could at least.
Otherwise give your first name city and state and country.
Don't go away.
We are going to be right back after these messages.
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Or am I trying to please man.
If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
We are reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.
We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.
We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do
Than how men view these things.
That's not the best recipe for popularity.
But since that wasn't the Apostles priority it must not be ours either.
We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be
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And here's my friend.
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Hi.
I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries.
I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor Josh Bison praise mill Baptist Church at
the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in
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For more details go to g3 conference .com.
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Thanks, James.
Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there.
Welcome back.
This is Chris Arnz.
And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is Bill Shishko director of
Reformation Metro, New York.
He's also the host of the weekly live 90 -minute call -and -talk show a visit to the pastor's study
Which will be debuting on WL ie 540 a .m. Radio on Long Island
on November 26th God willing and You can hear that worldwide via live streaming
just as you can with iron sharpens iron radio.
If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com before we continue bill with what you were discussing.
We do have BB in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who asks.
I Understand that you were saying that there were some dispensational leanings in the Bible
Presbyterian Church.
But I know Pastors who are not at any way Affiliated with
dispensationalism there must be a variety of thought on this.
Can you confirm?
Yes, and by the way, I want to thank Linda from Hilltop Lakes, Texas for
Encouraging us that the sound is crystal clear via live streaming today.
So seems like our friends Don Woodard and Joe Ignacio did a great job fixing the problem.
Thank you.
Thank you very much Linda for letting us know.
Yes, that's and I just want to also put in a good word having said what we were just
discussing.
Obviously there are Precious brothers in Christ who are dispensationalist.
We're not acting like this is a cult of some kind in fact.
One of my biggest financial supporters of iron sharpens iron is waiting River Baptist Church pastor Ron
glass who is a thoroughgoing Calvinist but he is a dispensationalist and he Supports my
program and sponsors it even though he knows I'm not a dispensationalist and that he that he has a disagreement with
me over that.
That's the kind of Biblical ecumenism that we were talking about earlier, isn't it that there are certain
things that prohibit fellowship?
But there are other things that are tertiary Areas that we need not divide
and separate from obviously in congregations.
These things will separate us at times.
But as far as fellowship and so on we can have full fellowship with brethren like this.
Right, and
course John MacArthur is another
name that many of us would.
Really uphold as a modern -day hero of the faith.
And so I don't want anybody to think that we're bashing dispensationalist.
We just happen to disagree with them.
Developments with the Reformed faith in the 20th century in the United States
of America.
Remembering that the Lord says he'll build his church and we're thinking about that aspect of it here.
1970s through the 1980s were a kind of a kind of time of I call it
consolidation.
For for reformed churches and various denominations.
Including the the so -called reformed Baptists which were developing at the time a lot of the debate
then so -called worship wars.
You were dealing with a with two D's more
and that's an interesting topic.
But for my things to cover the 1990s were really
really fascinating that's when you began to see the consolidation of
The the reformed faith.
Consolidating itself so to speak and in various reformed churches.
That was of course when there was the development of of the reformed Baptists.
Of which you were a part largely under the leadership of Al Martin and Walt Chantry and and
Ernie Riesinger who remained a Southern Baptist and was actually part of the so -called founders movement.
The reformed faith still is is having its influence and some people regard this either as a
blessing others as a bane.
But within the Southern Baptist Convention The the Calvinistic convictions of an owl molar and a Tom
Schreiner and so on these have had a profound influence within the the
Southern Baptist Convention among Presbyterians.
There was a formation of the Presbyterian Church in America 1973 that was a
group that came out from the Presbyterian Church of the United States a largely Southern
Presbyterian body and the PCA has had a distinct reformed and
Evangelical influence in the United States when you think of leaders here you think of R .C.
Sproul.
Who's a PCA minister.
I think of Tim Keller in New York City who was a PCA minister?
And and where I think the the Orthodox Presbyterian Church has put more
of an emphasis on.
You know our confessional standing and doctrinal issues and and seeing the church built
Biblically the Presbyterian Church in America without abandoning any of those things has really
focused more on on Evangelism and missions and so on the OPCs eventually as
emphasized evangelism and missions, too.
But there's emphasis areas here.
The United Reformed Churches of North America were formed and I believe the 1980s
the Christian Reformed Churches, which it had a venerable history as a Dutch
Calvinistic Church body.
The the Christian Reformed Churches with the back to God hour.
Had actually made tremendous inroads through radio ministry and in the 1930s.
So yeah, I've had dr.
Joel Niederhood on this program.
Joel, dr. Joel
Was on but for a long time with form churches that had a
tremendous history there.
Anyway, the United Reformed Churches of North America were formed when ministers Realized
there were there were weak issue.
There was weak commitments regarding women in the church Regardless of regarding the inerrancy of Scripture and
so on so that there was that development.
You also had of course Individuals who became very well known
for their Reformed commitments and then especially in the 1980s 1990s R .C. Sproul would be
among them with his Ligonier ministry John Piper among those not
Technically identified as Reformed Baptists.
But John Piper through his ministry at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis and through his
outstanding writing Popularized the Reformed faith and and we of course were the
beneficiaries of those things the whole Christian counseling and educational foundation
that does phenomenal work with Developed and then there were
worldview organizations summit ministries and others that may not have been necessarily Particularly
reformed in dealing with the doctrine of salvation, but they made application of Reformed
insight to the state To to government and so on and so forth.
It's really better.
It's really better a Fascinating time and and then of course, there were sad things.
Overall, most of your listeners will be aware of what happened with family with family radio
network.
That work that had been begun by a Reformed
Church's Harold Camping that network which had been a Independable
outlet for basic Reformed teaching through conference echoes through its
conferences and other things Began to really go south when Harold Camping
its director came out with a book 1994 which study 94 question
mark which he came out with in 1992 actually Predicting about 99
sure that Christ would come back in 94.
That that happily did not affect every area.
Where the Reformed faith had influenced people not everybody could get a family station but those of us who could
were in tremendous consternation as.
This man who was a it was a very articulate defender of many Reformed
distinctives.
Just progressively if I could put it that way just just went down the tubes.
Until he became heretical in his in his teaching that Basically, you can't
be saved if you're a part of the church, right which utterly turned on
its head.
And and we'll there was a counter to that.
But let me let me get to the two thousand I'll bet all then you can you and I can chat because this is kind of the turf Chris that you and I are familiar
with from the 2000s to the present Reformed
a lot of soul -searching and and a lot of Of
evaluation of a couple of things number one.
What really is the church?
And that's where we began.
Christ has given his head over all things the church.
Which is his body the fullness of him who fills all in all?
There's where the Orthodox Presbyterian Church While it's not been as visible in some
things has done in particular in the 1990s did Magnificent work on
Thinking about foreign missions from a biblical and reform perspective home missions from a biblical
and reform perspective and began producing with Great Commission Publications, which is a
joint publishing effort of the OPC with the Presbyterian Church in America some very
fine Reformed Sunday school materials and and for your listeners Chris Regardless of their
doctrinal or denominational background.
I really urge them to look into the materials of Great Commission Publications not
Great Commission's publications.
There's one Great Commission and there's one Great great.
I think you just put it WWG here is
I think that I'd say the
distinctive these school materials
really are aimed at the different age groups and Whatever else
Presbyterians may not do real.
Well, they're pretty and they.
So, I mean that was a tremendous benefit with his
churches.
Presbyterian churches.
Some Methodist churches and others many are using this material because of its faithfulness to the
scriptures.
And that's why they publish the Trinity Hymnal to don't publish it.
And now you have a church and
its ministry.
And even though I'm not a Baptist I have profited from them the
church and a popular come
and while we'd have great
Nevertheless, it may be a reformed faith
pooled their resources to write
responsible in the radio world.
Get in trouble for
its
director.
I'd formerly been with with family radio
and we saw the way that
that was of Really the very anti
carol camping.
Anyway, Dan started Redeemer broadcasts.
He more
broadcast teaching and
programming that is faith and
the other thing.
They're very much church folk and past
job.
So that's that faith for dummies in the last
what 80 years or so.
Well, I first of all, I want to give a plug.
To.
Redeemer broadcasting by giving their website.
It's Redeemer broadcasting org.
Very easy to remember Redeemer broadcasting org if anybody listening wants to jot that
down and listen later on of course wait till this program is over and I'm
sure you'll be blessed by Redeemer broadcasting or one of the things I wanted to bring
up.
Because it happened to be a discussion a part of a discussion.
I had today over lunch with a pastor he agreed with me
that one of the Dangers of modern evangelicalism
seems to be a disdain for creeds and confessions and When you were
speaking about Harold camping before he was really an anomaly.
Because even though he was had a lot of years In the Christian Reformed
Church denomination.
He was really an atypical Reformed Elder in that
for many years.
Even before some of the more controversial things erupted.
He was an anti -confessional Anti -credal kind of guy.
I can even remember him wearing his buttons no creed, but the Bible and so on
that and People misunderstand what that is.
They think that you are elevating Traditions of men or teachings of men on par with
the scriptures or even Having them over the scriptures as far as your authority.
But these are just really when they are good confessions.
They're really just summaries of biblical teaching, aren't they?
Yeah, exactly.
A name of sound doctrine.
And and whenever anybody says I believe.
They're automatically giving a creed.
Credo simply means I believe.
And what a confession is or what a creed is statement a written statement of what
the scriptures teach.
And
If a minister says I I have no creed.
But the Bible watch out.
Because that pastor is going to have all kind.
And if he happens to be the localized Pope in a church You're
gonna have to sit in what you
do creed, but the Bible is.
Yes, it can come to your soul with a lot of enemies in it.
And that is a creed no creed, but the Bible is a creed.
Is a credo state.
Exactly exactly right.
And it begs the question.
It was the Bible say about all of these different things and and there's where for your listeners when they're wrestling.
But what church is to go to ask?
What do you believe
church website should post what their doctrinal convictions are so very important.
A.
Couple of the other movements within The Reformed Faith that you
did not mention And of course these could take a week -long programs
to to discuss individually, but two of the movements that
have Either had positive or very negative influence into the church at
large Have been both Theonomy and the federal vision and
I have very good friends Who are in both movements, although I have to admit that
I am Very much more opposed to the leanings of
federal vision.
Even though I'm not a theonomist.
I I still highly respect And really much more at ease
Having a theonomist on my program as a guest Whereas the federal vision teaching
seems to be a heartbeat away from Rome.
But if you could just give your own comments on those two movements, well, yeah.
I appreciate your bringing that up
gradually the application of the whole
law of God Including the to
every area of life including the state.
Greg Bonson was sort of the Child of ruches rush dooney in terms of his teaching on
theonomy and his book theonomy would be the textbook for it.
Greg also was in my opinion the greatest exponent of so -called
presuppositional apologetics.
Theonomy and I'm not quite sure where that is.
I think it's kind of diffused.
Once Greg Bonson died some years ago, but but you're going
to have many the laws
given to federal vision is
This array, but at least it's it's kind of morphing right now.
The names that have been associated with it in particular are Doug Wilson.
But federal vision, I think has been very much a reaction to the subjectivism of
some religion going back to people's Feelings as to whether they're saved in their own.
Spiritual experiences unlike the pendulum of a clock.
It's gone the opposite direction.
It's very objective.
If you're baptized you're a Christian and if you're a church member you're a Christian and and and so on and
and and.
When you look at it from the perspective of what it's reacting to you can understand it.
But like all pendulums it goes too far in that direction.
The the other thing is and in various ways really distorts the reformed confessions.
It professes to believe but most significant for the federal vision is its utter confusion and many of the
circles on the doctrine of Justification not that everybody who's somehow
involved with the federal vision movement so to speak believes this but the confusion of faith
and obedience in justification is The
ideas of NT Wright in England and others that does.
Yeah, I on my
old program.
When I had a debate with a proponent of federal vision and someone who is
in strong opposition to it the proponent of federal vision
when he was Explaining his understanding of justification.
I had to be honest with him and say I really cannot distinguish what you are saying from the Council of Trent's
description of justification which is of course for those of Our listeners who don't know what the Council of Trent
was.
It was a Roman Catholic reaction to the Protestant Reformation where many of the specific dogmas
were laid down that anathematized Those who held to uniquely
Protestant teaching, of course, there were other things involved as well that even Protestants would oppose but
Some of the things that we hold dear as the pillars of our faith Were denounced as damnable
and in fact many people many countless thousands were tortured maimed and murdered
because of these Protestant beliefs.
Well, we have enjoyed this time with you Chris, but you're gonna you still gonna let me go on for another hour.
Of course, I am.
I think that we've just stretched the tip of the iceberg.
I'm looking forward to more conversation.
In fact we have to go to our second station break right now and if anybody else would like to join us on the
air and I know there are a couple of you still waiting and we look forward to Reading your questions and having them answered on the
air.
But if anybody would like to join them, our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris arnzen at gmail .com.
Please give me your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
But you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.
We'll be right back with Bill Shishko.
I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio.
And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference.
He and I are going to.
Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched at TV and
occasional guest on Chris's show.
Think I think that's what it's called.
Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta.
My new hometown.
It is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference
celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer
Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Malcolm Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.
We hope to see you there.
Learn more at g3 conference .com.
G3 conference .com.
Thanks Todd, I think.
See you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.
I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bison praise mill Baptist Church at
I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Malcolm Conrad and Bayway
Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars
of what g3 stands for gospel grace and glory.
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This is Chris Arnson.
If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is Bill Shishko
director of Reformation Metro, New York.
And he's the host of the weekly live 90 -minute call -and -talk show a visit to the pastor study which
premieres November 26 God willing on WL ie Radio
540 a .m.
Which during daylight hours?
Covers all of Long Island all the five boroughs of New York City gets into parts of upstate New
York and even gets into parts of Rhode Island and Massachusetts and
Northern New Jersey, Pennsylvania Connecticut.
I mean it has a very wide coverage area broadcasting over 10 ,000 watts In
daylight hours and that program will be heard God willing every Saturday 12
noon to 1 30 p .m.
On WL ie 540 a .m.
And we'll also be live streaming globally.
So those outside of those areas I mentioned can listen anywhere you have a computer
and we'll be giving you more details on that as that is the topic of our discussion the
highlighted topic for this next hour and If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris
Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com before I take any more of our listeners questions bill.
I'd like you to just open up this half of the
program as I did.
With emphasis if I had a text for this hour
It would be that that great city Nineveh except I would change Nineveh to that great city, New York.
It's been such a privilege to be a pastor on Long Island in the metropolitan New York
area for about thirty five and a half years now and I want your listeners
to be struck with the fact that in the metropolitan New York area the five
boroughs of the city.
Certainly you have the the eastern part of New Jersey southern part of Connecticut and even Long Island.
But but if you just take the the city the five boroughs itself you're looking at you
get 20 million people one in every 16 people in the United
States of America.
I could put it this way lives in in New York in metropolitan, New York.
And.
The other thing I want your listeners to be struck with is when you minister in New
York Metropolitan New York area you literally are ministering to people from
every nation.
There is not a nation in the world that is not represented in Metropolitan, New
York some in more scattered ways others with with larger communities.
But whether you're dealing with Liberians or whether you're dealing with you condoms or Haitians or Jamaicans or
Portuguese or whatever would be they're all Represented in one way or another in that great city, New
York.
And the motto of Reformation Metro New York is reach, New York and reach the world.
The.
Did you want me to start.
You want to shoot any questions now Chrissy?
Well, I watch.
Well, let me just take Arnie and Perry County wants to know during my
visits to Manhattan It seems very difficult to find on a
Sunday truly reformed Congregation to visit for worship.
Why is it that Manhattan seems to be very under represented?
Underrepresented with the
reformed faith.
Well tell tell Ernie that one for what we're doing.
See that's that's precisely it is
it's governed by a board of three.
Each of whom is part of the Presbytery of Connecticut and Southern New York of the Orthodox
Presbyterian Church 1997 our General Assembly, which is the broadest governing body of the
Orthodox Presbyterian Church Granted permission to develop a new Presbytery, which is a regional
group of churches and we started in 1998 and There have
been other other reformed things in New York City.
You have of course Tim Keller at Redeemer Presbyterian Church and and and it's many
satellite Churches so to speak in the metropolitan area.
You have a United Reformed Churches of North America Congregation that is pastored by
Pastor Paul Murphy and I love I love where they are.
They are in Hell's Kitchen in New York City.
Because it a lot of reasons why it was called that primarily because it they used to be an area that was a book
Ministry in New York City he had Pastor Troy Green who pastors a
Congregation a Calvinistic Congregation in Brooklyn and there may be others, but at least these are the
ones I know.
But that is really really sparse when you're talking about a city of 20 million people
and what's really interesting.
Is harking back to the last hour the funding for?
Some of these fundamentalist Bible conferences and even for part of the funding for
the series the fundamentals of the faith actually came from Conservative churches
in New York City in the early in the early 1900s churches that now are very liberal.
So, I mean New York City has had the prayer meeting revival that came here in the
middle part of the 19th century.
There was the leadership of many fine Reformed and Presbyterian men and
now it is a real wasteland and Reformation Metro, New York
Wants to kind of have a piece of the pie So to speak and in working with Reformed churches
in New York.
But I could tell you more about that in a moment.
You may have some other questions that I just wanted to put in a plug for a church that I discovered
A number of months ago.
That was the host of the sermon audio conference Manor Church
in Chelsea.
Manor Pastor Bill Jones is the pastor there.
This is a church that took over a historic Dutch
Reformed Church that goes back to the 19th century and It seemed
to drift away from its biblical roots and Manor Church really came in and has been used of God to
really Transform that place theologically and I just want to I'll give I'll give the website for them.
It's Manor Church dot info.
M -a -n -o -r church dot info.
Just wanted to give that little plug.
I just
see the very fact.
You kind of have to scratch your head to come up with it with a name shows that.
You know in this area of 20 million people the Reformed faith is not represented the way it should be.
Well.
Anyway, as far as the OPC goes and again, the PCA has had a quite an influence through the
Redeemer Network the Orthodox Presbyterian Church since we've had a
formation of a mission church in Mount Vernon, New York.
We had attempted at one in Brooklyn and and another in Suffolk County in the 1980s and
neither of those Really lasted for the long haul.
It was kind of a testimony to the particular challenges we have here.
But the Lord has blessed in our region in the formation of the of the OPC in Bohemia.
Which is a fascinating check community in about one mile square in Suffolk County.
Pastor Mike Ploughman.
And they have a they have a real model of a community ministry.
Pastor Ploughman is actually the the chairman of the funeral of the of the Cemetery Association.
There and but that gives them opportunities to minister to families.
They have a food pantry and minister to the homeless.
That's a really neat kind of a thing.
You rarely see a church that could just focus on one square mile for ministry.
But that's the OPC in Bohemia and pastor Ploughman informed me of something that I was totally
unaware of.
He said there are a group of Roman Catholic Czechs who revere
Jan Hus as a an honorable man from history.
Well, obviously the Church of Rome executed him.
So that's was quite a surprise to me that There are those Czechs who are Catholic that
view Huss as a hero.
Yeah, pastor Ploughman from of
the Lord have a reason incidentally for mentioning the specifics I'll get to that a minute.
Christo array OPC, which was dissolved some years ago was started to Elmont.
Which is the largest a second largest Hispanic concentration on Long Island?
And then most of those folks ended up going to the OPC in Franklin Square.
I think the opportunity Chris to work on WL ie Which is a
predominantly Spanish speaking station is a distinct blessing.
I'm hoping that we can somehow interface our our Spanish speaking reformed Christians and that
station.
We have an OPC in Queens and in Freshmeadow, Queens.
Which which is led by actually my son Jonathan Shishko.
And and that's our that's the OPCs for a into inner city into inner city
urban missions and.
Then we have in Syosset the the Trinity Church in Syosset which is a congregation of the
Orthodox Presbyterian Church led by pastor Ben Miller and.
And the reason I highlight highlight these is that two things
number one.
You really see how God has given men to to
develop Distinctively reformed and Presbyterian ministries in Metropolitan New
York, that's number one number two we suffer because it costs so
much to do church planting in New York and The Redeemer Network
seems to have tapped into a lot more money than we have.
But Reformation Metro, New York is a way to get the word out about what we're doing.
And of course largely through the radio program that I'll tell you about in a minute.
But I want to encourage your listeners whether it's these men or pastor Jonathan Holst who is from Wales.
Who pastors the OPC in Hamden, Connecticut?
Sam Chung who is a Korean Christian who is working with a church in Queens hoping to get
his own Congregation to pastor.
I've already mentioned pastor Miller and Jonathan Shishko and Mike Ploughman John Mallon who's part of
our Presbyterian.
I think you interviewed John.
I think Chris, right?
Which one John Mallon the Christian counselor?
No, I have not.
I think I think I contacted him and somehow it slipped through the cracks, but I have not.
And he's been a big help within the churches here and then other men
that we have Dick Gerber who's an older man.
He's a few years older than I am.
Dick was the associate general secretary for for home missions for
oh many many years and and is a very knowledgeable in church planning.
So we have within our within our Presbytery we have a really
quite and Ministries that they work with in churches that they work with
and Reformation Metro New York is designed to give more visibility to them.
It's also hopefully to raise more funds for the church planning that's projected.
But it's also to get the word out to people about this area.
Yeah, there are as you may have encountered as well there are a
number of Christians evangelical Christians.
Who.
Say that why are you constantly dragging up this word?
Reformation from the dark ancient dusty past we are far beyond that
Roman Catholic.
The Roman Catholic Church is no longer torturing and executing Protestants.
Let us join arms in this day and age of of immorality like we've never
experienced before.
Let us Get the laws passed that condemn this and that let us get officials
elected here and there that will be our Champions to rid society of all these moral
ills.
And we've got to stop This division with our Roman Catholic friends
now.
The world the Reformation really is not over in regard to what divides us.
Is it?
Cobelligerence in
certain the
problem if I think
there's better ways to spend your time being part of protest against
against the killing
I think increasingly as Christians using the big
of whatever stripe are being opposed in our country.
We will see what we do in other nations of the earth where when it comes to
defending One's rights and promoting justice Roman Catholics and Protestants will to
some extent work together so that that's a coal belligerent, but not allies when it comes to
doctrine and.
Here again, we're going back to the Three legs of the stool as I shared with you in an
email earlier today.
Chris, but something else.
Are the scriptures the final and the sufficient authority for faith and life or is it scripture
plus tradition?
Huge difference and especially in a milieu a culture that that is
is.
Really raising the question of authority you cannot in any sense of the word unless you've got severe
vision problems.
Say that we are allies with one group that says the scriptures alone and final authority and
sufficient and the other that says.
This is scripture plus tradition.
The second leg of the stool and the one we usually think of is how is a person?
How does a person become right with God and for the Roman Church?
And and with it with the peril of anathema.
Given to all those who differ it is essentially our faith plus
our grace infused obedience grace infused obedience grace that comes from the
church and so.
Justification is a process and it's a process that's never really complete in this life.
And it's a process that we contribute to our works.
That is diametrically absolutely diametrically opposite the biblical teaching
that a person is justified by faith alone in Christ alone the New Testament never speaks of
people in the process of being justified.
It says that they're that they are justified by faith a huge difference
and and and and and frankly I mean, this is for a whole other day, but the very fact that even
supposedly Reformational Protestants would say there is no difference with
the Roman Catholic Church on this or it's not an issue.
What that really says is it is a very very weak view
of what?
Salvation is and then the third that we don't think about very much is that for the Protestants
every believer was a priest.
They still maintained that there was a ministry that there were elders that they were that there were deacons.
But but these were not priests they were the each believer.
Is it where the church is called a holy priesthood and Peter and and therefore you don't go to the
separate guy behind the screen for a confessional you go to Christ and.
Even that that whole concept of elevating a priesthood in a particular way.
Made kind of a buffer between the individual and Christ.
So and then and then the larger question larger issues why I love the term ongoing biblical
Reformation is that the Reformation was about going back
to the scriptures about everything I think is I think is Kevin the young put it one of his posts last week.
He said that you know, the the call of the Reformation wasn't so much forward as backward.
What do the scriptures say and and and in truth?
What did the early church say about things but that wasn't the final authority whereas for the Church of Rome.
It's it's really it's it's the Magisterium, it's the declarations of the church today.
Regardless in many ways of what the scriptures say.
So yes.
Ongoing biblical Reformation the word is Semper Reformanda always reforming.
We have a listener bill in Slovenia and I'm going to
slightly edit his question because he mentions a specific pastor in church.
And I'd rather not do that right now but I will incorporate his
question into a broader question.
He seems to be concerned that theistic Evolution is a presence amongst some
professedly reformed churches.
He wants to know how would this view?
Be compatible with Orthodox Christianity.
It
isn't so.
The Orthodox Presbyterian
Church has
gone on record
as standing
against theistic evolution and any of its emanations.
Theistic evolution In its most crass sense is is the theory
of evolution with putting God and and that simply is is not.
It's not sufficient.
Kind of a ruse in a way.
The scriptures clearly teach and I don't preach into the choir here.
The scriptures clearly teach.
The New Testament teaches that there's a literal Adam and
so if a
person is going to adopt the a person's
going to really can see Adam
and Christ as the two great personages of history.
And you know an Adam as in one man's
Creation is a
very raw challenge.
To what both would you say that.
It appears to me that.
There is a lot of growing sympathy towards theistic evolution by
some who profess to be reformed because there is historically a connection
between the academic world and reformed theology and
perhaps people are trying to Not want to they don't want to appear out of
step with modern science and so on so they unfortunately Buy into the fact
or buy into that.
These are facts.
This is a better way of putting it.
They seem to just be swallowing what modern scientists say.
But they're completely ignoring the fact that there are scientists some of them who are not even
Christian who are Distancing themselves from evolution because they can't find any scientific
evidence for it.
You know
Chris I've said and
I love
learning.
I have for many years
people talk about the accrediting agent I and I realize there's financial
issues and all of the stuff in it, but but to my rather simple mind There's one accreditation age to
the church.
Is the seminary an instrument to form men who are faithful men will labor
I and again?
I don't want to be cavalier in all of this.
But there is a point have to
say that wonderful Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale.
We're
actually no garments at
all.
Everybody is to find out one little voices, but
two things like the
theory of evolution gender issues in our culture fully realizing that sin creates
gender identity issues.
I'll take that away.
going to have to
say easily even within the world of a but
there are
Pages.
Tom Wolfe was famously known for bonfire the vanities.
Thomas Wolfe is in a deranged form in that
Absolutely fascinating book so it's not a historical novel.
It's not a history book, but it's kind of historical commentary.
He takes to task Charles Darwin and the 20th century known Chomsky
who because of their acceptance even
though they realized That Darwinian evolution cannot
occur and in that book give
it away.
You come to the last come to the
last two pages Tom Wolfe, but
the only ones.
Wow, I gotta get a hold of that book.
By the way, Joe in Slovenia Thank you so much for submitting a question and please keep spreading the word about
iron sharpens iron in Slovenia and also spread the word about a
visit to the pastor's study Which is debuting God willing November 26th, so
be great.
If.
Pastor Bill actually receives phone calls from Slovenia because Pastor Bill's show is going to be a
live Call -in show.
So what you're gonna look right exactly.
And we're going to our final break right now.
And if anybody would like to join us our email address was Chris Ornson at
gmail .com.
We still have a couple of people that I haven't gotten to yet and we will get to you as soon as possible.
But Chris Ornson at gmail .com is the email address and please give us your first name your city and state and
country of residence.
Unless this is a personal and private matter.
We'll be right back with Pastor Bill Shishko.
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This is Chris Orns.
And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes in the lab in the next half hour to come.
Our guest has been and will continue to be Pastor Bill Shishko, and he is the
And he is the host of the soon -to -be Debuting broadcast a
visit to the pastor's study.
Which is near and dear to my heart because I can remember years ago when Pastor Bill was a client
of mine on WMCA 570 a .m. Radio and he would come into the studio with me in
New Jersey and we would record live actually, we broadcast a live broadcast
and Have a visit to the pastor's study and we would also have recordings of
handles Messiah on a number of Christmases that were between 90 minutes
and two hours long.
We might even had a couple of three hour programs as I recall.
But there was a lot of reminiscing and a lot of nostalgia for me connected with this before I returned to our
interview.
Want to remind our listeners about a conference that I will be attending and representing iron
sharpens iron.
That's the doctrines of grace conference sponsored by the Alliance of confessing evangelicals
in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, November 11th and the 12th.
Speakers include.
Dr. Joel Beeky Anthony Carter and Tony Morita.
Two of those speakers have been guests on iron sharpens iron, especially dr Beeky has been on many times and was
just on recently.
He is certainly one of the bright lights of teaching in our day and
age and He is the also the founder of Reformation heritage books and just a really
powerful preacher and teacher.
And if you'd like more details about attending the doctrines of grace conference on November 11th and the
12th in Quakertown, Pennsylvania Go to Alliance net org
Alliance net org and click on events at the top of the page and the very first
event that will pop up is the doctrine of doctrines of grace conference so I hope to see you
there and please introduce yourself to me at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth if you
if you are in the listening audience today and and are going there as a Result of hearing these promotional
messages for that event.
So I look forward to meeting you.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com if you care to ask a
question of Pastor Shishko on anything in regard to
either Reformation Metro, New York his radio program or even anything involving
reform theology in general.
So tell us about the soon -to -be -launched.
God -willing Visit to the pastor's study.
Thanks, Chris.
Well Reformation Metro, New York.
Or churches a
church
minister
production of vimeos I don't
know theology class
that
would be farther down
off more than we can chew In the works is what we're calling Reformation
seminary of the air that will be taking the Westminster Confession of Faith
that's adopted by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
Putting it breaking it down.
We 11 chapters per year and in bite -sized Interactive
ways
of and and represent after
that as well one of the things that that would be used for actually be
archived and it will be Something that could actually be used in connection with officer training.
So you have something for pastors.
Something for the the training of elders and deacons in the church and then the one you've mentioned Oh,
which is my darling for right now a visit to the pastor's study.
Which will debut God willing on November 26th, Saturday, November 26th on
WLIE radio, which is 540 a .m.
For those of you in the in the New York and you're right Chris.
Is that quite the coverage?
I picked it up in Hartford, Connecticut and Throughout all of Long Island and then most of Manhattan
and so on but to WLIE WLIE 540 a
.m.
Dot -com.
Dot -com
think that I've done over the years since I began on the
pastorate in 1979.
Back, then I was in a station on Saturdays.
Interestingly, I think like between 10 and 11 or something.
And in North Charleston and did a visit to the pastor's study call -in program and The Lord
used that in that area and then of course Chris you and I have done similar things through WMCA radio.
This enables me to do the telephone talk program.
Between 12 and 1 p .m. On Saturdays and then between 1 and 1 30.
There's an additional 30 minutes and Actually at this point we're looking at
making that more of a commercial program on the theme of God and your health, but
We're still in process of working on that.
But at least 12 to 1 o 'clock a visit to the pastor's study and I want to give your listeners the phone number.
They can use so they can write it down because I'm anxious to get their phone calls.
On the phone number to a visit to the pastor's study six three one.
Preceded by a one one six three one nine five five five four
zero zero one six three one nine five five five four zero
zero.
Beginning November 26 dial that number.
You'll get a visit to the pastor's study the this program Chris Is to bring pastoral
ministry to the radio.
This is not the Bible answer man.
This is not a guy talking with you about how to manage your funds.
Although questions like that may come up.
It's what people would expect when they visit a pastor's study and sadly
It less and less.
Two pastors make themselves available as pastors.
They tend to have other duties that they do but this kind of brings it on kind of an old -school Pastor and
let's people visit him via the media will do there'll be various things.
Some of the shows may be more like you do with some interviews at the beginning.
Others I'll be having local local probably beginning with Orthodox Presbyterian ministers and we'll be
chatting about some things and people can listen over our shoulders.
But in most cases I'll start off with dealing with a pastoral issue like like Marriage
divorce issues or or depression is an issue or church Disciplinary issues or dealing with
cults those kinds of things and so there'll be the so -called Monologue and then then the questions will
will come in through that.
Obviously more as we develop a listenership, but that will be beginning God willing November 26th
From 12 noon to 1 p .m. WLIE which hails from Ronkonkoma, Long Island and
Especially any of your listeners who speak Spanish should check out WLIE 540
a .m. Dot -com and They'll find an assortment of programming.
I'm not sure if any of its reformed, but at least they'll find out about about things being done on
WLIE but it's all under the theme of
Everyone needs a pastor and I'm my hope from this is that number
one will get listeners from.
This is the area in which I serve as a regional home missionary.
And we will get people who are interested in either starting reformed churches or bringing about
ongoing biblical Reformation to the churches that they're in or just as you mentioned are interested in the
And I'm looking forward to following up pastorally with all of those things.
I've been encouraged to maximize my pastoral experience in these years as regional home
missionary.
That will do that.
The other is that when listeners because you can stream on WLIE
Other areas as you do.
I don't know what we would do with people from Slovenia.
I'd have to do some real checking about churches over there.
But the goal is to get people into faithful churches wherever they are.
Remember, we're building on the theme of the church.
Let me at this point mention to Chris That God will be
simulcast on
Redeemer broadcasting and as you mentioned last hour people can access that through Redeemer
broadcasting org.
Redeemer is a non -commercial Christian network and since the first hour will be non
-commercial we'll be able to simulcast this and all of the Redeemer terrestrial stations and
Those who stream through Redeemer will be able to pick this up so it will really have
an outreach throughout the nation and the world and Particularly to the churches of what we call
the Napark churches North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council and then
two other sites, although I'm not pushing them a lot because I have to update them but
just look up ReformationMetroNewYork .org and They'll get updates on the work of
ReformationMetroNewYork and then also visit the PastorsStudy .org.
In time, there'll be a blog there once a week.
It'll be a short thing, but that will be another way by which people can stay in contact with me.
And I learned having been the only English program for
a time on WNYG Radio on Long Island when
it started off as an English -speaking contemporary Christian station.
It was purchased by a Spanish network Radio Contico Nuevo and I
was the only English -speaking Christian program on there.
And I made it a point to always let people know if you hear Spanish programming when you tune in.
Don't be alarmed.
You don't have the wrong station.
Just keep listening.
And in fact in your case if you hear Hindu programming don't be alarmed because there's a Hindu
program on immediately before directly before your program, so hopefully there'll be Hindu
listeners who.
Embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I'm already praying about that.
I wasn't
to Christ.
That's great.
This is my last name Shishko sh I Shko
shishko dot and then
the sh
ko dot or you can
use gmail .com.
I'd like your listeners who are listening right now Just to shoot me an email quickly and if you're interested in the
printed material on Reformation Metro, New York I'd be glad to send it to you.
We can add you to our our database of people who are following that work, but I'd love to hear from your listeners
because You're you're emphasizing Reform distinctives and kind of a broader sense
and and how that intersects with with unbelief and aberrant forms of Christianity.
What we're doing is kind of the other side of the coin it's how the Reformed faith works itself out in
pastoral ministry and church ministry and so there's there's definitely a
Symbiosis between between your listeners and ours Chris.
Well, we do have a listener who's using an alias and
The alias is revenant by grace.
So I don't know where he is.
Writing from what city state or country probably someplace in New York, and he's afraid of the
mafia.
I Didn't know that the mafia was getting upset about the
intrusion of evangelical Christianity into their.
That's right.
Well revenant by grace asks.
He says dr. Shishko.
Do you have a doctorate yet?
He says could you please comment on the reformed aspects of David Platt's
Theology.
He is the president of the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention.
He seems to have some reform leanings, but also recently changed some policies regarding missionary
qualifications to allow those who affirm the gift of speaking in tongues intelligible speech he has in
parentheses as Qualified for missionary service with the IMB.
Thanks.
I wasn't aware of the last thing.
I do get
Southers pleased when
they kind of
like we
talked about that radical counterculture.
The radical mindset of people converted out of the counterculture I
think has it is kind of its repristination in the David Platt's and others.
I wasn't aware of this current development and Therefore don't want to comment on it.
But if that's true, I would be deeply saddened by it.
The idea that the gift of is is really really
misguided and wrong for this reason the gift of tongues was
essentially the gift of speaking the Word of God by immediate revelation in
a foreign language and 1st Corinthians 14 14 Paul says when I what I hear you as
long as I pray when I pray in a tongue or My spirit prays or the Holy Spirit in me
prays, but my mind uses the Greek word Ah car passes unfruitful and it's a technical
language for the bypassing of Paul's Basically his Greek
Hebrew vocabulary so to speak his own Vocabulary database so to speak so
taking over his mind and vote
at what
that's developed a non
Biblical less than biblical
or non biblical.
I would
happen by
the way
revenant by grace.
If you are a first -time questioner because I don't recognize that email address
Send me your full name and mailing address.
I will not announce it.
You seem to be bent on remaining anonymous.
Send me your full name and mailing address and you will receive absolutely free of charge a New American Standard Bible a
beautiful edition Of the NASB that has an embossed cross on the cover.
It's just a really excellent size to carry around and visitations and
Not small enough to fit in a shirt pocket.
But you could fit it in a coat pocket or easily fit it in a briefcase.
By the way, I apologize if you're a woman because I called you a he I know and you may be a woman if you Are a woman you
could easily fit it in most purses and pocketbooks as well.
But if you would email us your full name and mailing address, you will be getting one of those.
NASB.
Bibles in the very near future.
God willing.
And thanks for writing something about that whole issue of The sign
gifts.
View it in time.
I'd view very differently those churches and pastors and
individuals who were already Charismatic or Pentecostal who have come to the doctrines of
grace.
I view them differently than those people who?
Become Charismatic or Pentecostal and I'm not saying that.
I think that it's okay to remain in error because I disagree with.
Continuous view or the non cessationist view.
But do you share that?
I mean, isn't there a difference that you see between somebody.
Because obviously as we all Go through the sanctification process over
Sometimes decades, in fact, we were supposed to be going through it until we're in heaven.
But.
There is a growth that we should be patient with in individuals as far as their understanding of biblical
truth.
Chris I've
been impressed for you away
from the
war on the other hand.
He actually if I could put it this way, it's almost like he had colitis when he realized how Tragic, it was
that these were people without a shepherd now.
They had shepherds, but they were false shepherds.
So they weren't shepherds and that's got to be if I could put it this way the rank -and
-file of people who are Under any under the influence of any religious system
you take them from where they are and move them along.
And I think the other thing that's been helpful for me Is is to is to is to
hear.
I've heard put in various ways.
The charismatic movement is in one sense the payment for the unpaid bills of the church.
We have been all very often.
This is something to consider on one of your future programs.
We've been beset by what's been called reformed deism where you have a sovereign God up there but he
really doesn't impact the lives of people today and.
And it breeds a deadness and a sterility and again pendulum, right?
You've got you're gonna have a reaction to this that can come out and things like the charismatic movement.
Take people from where they are.
No, what do you make of some of those who defend the charismatic movement?
Who will use Martin Lloyd -Jones as Someone who shared their convictions on the sign
Oh, it's what dr.
Lloyd -jones, I think are urban legends regarding his supposed support for certs
on the other hand of it.
Essentially a duck the and
the giving of the spirit is material on the ceiling of the spirit and his commentary on Ephesians One
is pure Pentecostal ism.
It is not faithful to the text.
But it but in fact actually I've written an article called the those ceiling and witnessing work of the Holy Spirit
That is available through Greenville Seminary that deals with this.
But yes, sadly, there's an example where dr Lloyd -jones is Welsh it picks Is
is Welsh.
Experientialism so to speak I'm afraid prevailed over solid theology.
And when you say he was untrained he was an MD though.
He was terrific he was a diagnostic.
Right.
Well, uh, I just want to make sure that we give your websites there is
Reformation Metro NY Org Reformation Metro
NY for New York org.
You can also go to visit the pastors study org.
Visit the pastor study org.
Do you have any other contact information that you can't share?
I would love it.
Those websites got to be updated.
I'd rather people just email me at shishko sh is
a work or I'd love to
hear from your list apparently.
Great and if you
could remain on the phone after we go off the air because I just want to say a final greeting to You brother and I
want to thank everybody who listened to today's program.
I want to thank again all of you who prayed with me for the audio problems
of the plaguing the program to be rectified as they have been obviously and
I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater
Savior Than you are a sinner.
We look forward to hearing from you and your questions tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.