November 7, 2016 Show with Bill Shisko

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth We're listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron

Wishing you all a happy Monday on this seventh day of November 2016 election day

Eve and I am delighted to have back on the program a very dear friend and brother in Christ and one of my favorite guests on iron sharpens iron

Pastor Bill Shishko, but before I introduce him a very hearty deeply felt

Expression of thanks are due to two people who rescued iron sharpens iron from the audio difficulties that Resurfaced a couple of weeks ago and that have been plaguing my

Program for a couple of weeks and sometimes rendering the programs completely inaudible.

I had computer and studio savvy friends laboring with me trying to detect what the root cause was of these these crackling noises and echoing voices and garbled voices and all kinds of things that were happening and Nobody could get to the root of this and then

I had my friend Joe Ignacio come over Who is familiar with studio equipment and a an individual who

I don't even know until now Don Woodard who is the director of dynamic shows calm he is a television producer and A Christian and a childhood friend of my friend.

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries he saw my cry for help on the on the

Facebook and Responded with his a gracious offer to spend two hours with me

Last Thursday and sure enough after after about 90 minutes of frustrating searches and troubleshooting

Trying to find the root cause of the problem He had a hunch and he asked my friend

Joe, can you see if the iMac Inner mic or the invisible mic built -in mic is turned on and Joe found out that yes

It was indeed on he said turn it off and the rerun that we were airing while doing this that was filled with garbled distortion immediately

Turned into a crystal clear program. So I'm thanking God to this day For their help and I want to once again thank

Don Woodard of dynamic shows calm for all your help and also Joe Ignacio Thanks for all your labors and your willingness to share

You're a very valuable time with me in the midst of very hectic schedules

Well, as I said earlier, I've got on the program today a very dear friend of mine who's actually been a friend

Really for the entirety give or take a month or so of my life as a

Born -again believer in Christ Jesus. I met pastor Bill Shishko in the 1980s in the mid -1980s when he was visiting

What was then Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island. He was visiting as a guest speaker there and Pastor Bill at the time and until very recently was the pastor of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island and Pastor Bill and I really hit it off very quickly and I started visiting his the congregation where he pastors when they had

Bible conferences and special events and We got to know each other very well and have been very close friends for quite a number of years

And he has been one of my greatest encouragers and supporters in the

Iron Sharpens Iron radio program he has radio in his blood in his blood himself and he is a director of a new ministry called

Reformation Metro, New York and he's also the host of the weekly live 90 -minute call -in talk show a

Visit to the pastor's study which premieres on November 26th on WLIE 540

AM radio on Long Island and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Bill Shishko Hey, it's good to be with you

Chris after your week of audio distractions I'm wondering if that is connected with both Halloween and Reformation Day You were invaded by the powers of darkness, but I'm glad you're back on the air

Yeah, I'm glad I'm back on the air as well and by the way, if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Bill Our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. That's C H R. I s a R n

Z e n at gmail .com before we even go into the heart of our discussion today.

I want You to tell our listeners because it seems that we have new listeners I'm discovering every week

In the Iron Sharpens Iron audience who are contacting me through email or through Facebook or some other fashion sometimes occasionally even by phone

Tell us about the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, which is the denomination that you are a member of Let me begin

Chris with a few texts for your listeners and then we can I can launch it Asking your question answering your question, but but doing it in context

It's good for all of us to be reminded that while we praise the

Lord Jesus saves Individuals. He also says I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it so encouraging in this election season and Ephesians 2 or the end of Ephesians 1 and then developed in Ephesians 2

Paul says that Jesus is given as head over all things for the sake of his church

Which is his body that the fullness of him who fills all in all and there's a remarkable text in 1st

Timothy 315 where we're after Timothy says I I'm writing or pulses to Timothy I'm writing these things to you

So you might know how it is necessary for you to to live conduct yourself in in the

Church of God Wait, we're in the house of God, which he calls the Church of the

Living God The pillar and ground of the truth and when I answer your question about the Orthodox Presbyterian Church And we developed this first hour together

I want all of us to be thinking about the wonder of Christ building his church

As I worked on this Chris, I'm thankful so thankful for a couple of hours with you I want to talk about Reformation Metro, New York But I'd like to take this first hour to give sort of a tour

Down memory lane as I put it you you you and I will appreciate this because in our small ways

We've been a part of this. I Love the phrase ongoing biblical

Reformation I'm not quite so concerned with where churches are is in what direction they're going

Mm -hmm, and I think that's a good thing for all of your listeners and what in what direction is the church local or Denomination of which

I'm in what in what direction is it going? So I'm speaking today about ongoing biblical

Reformation with a focus on the USA Now, let me begin to answer your question as we give this tour down memory lane

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church has a has by any standards I think one of the most fascinating histories as a church body in the

United States Certainly one of the most fascinating in the 20th century in the late 19 in the late 1800s late 19th century

There had been increasing battles within the Presbyterian Church USA at that time there was the the main

Presbyterian bodies were the Presbyterian Church USA in the north and the Presbyterian Church US in the south

So we're talking about the northern iteration of Presbyterianism the Presbyterian Church USA and and these

Controversies were over essentially the truth of the Bible is the Word of God Not only is the

Bible the Word of God is the virgin birth of Christ Is that? Clearly what the scriptures teach is that a doctrinal necessity there were questions about the miracles of Jesus whether they were to be taken literally or figuratively a

Major question over the nature of the atonement of Christ and what what that meant there were some discussions even about the historicity of the resurrection and at his bodily return at the last day and and these these fundamental doctrines of the

Christian faith Were in dispute within the Presbyterian Church USA and what became was called the the fundamentalist modernist controversy that in itself is a fascinating study, but all of this came to a head in 1936

Ministers led especially by dr. J. Gresson Machen who was the most prominent spokesman for the so -called

Fundamentalists within the fundamentalist controversy and in the Presbyterian Church USA Dr.

Machen had been a professor of Greek at Princeton University He was the author of the still extremely important book

Christianity and liberalism 1936 the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church upholds the convictions of dr.

Machen and other ministers They're deposed from the ministry Because they will not support the boards of a denomination

That basically a promulgate promulgating modernism or liberalism or doctrinal

Unorthodoxy it was in that year in June of 1930 June of 1936 that the

Orthodox Presbyterian was formed the Orthodox Presbyterian Church was formed and it was the first major Denomination formed as a result of the so -called fundamentalist

Modernist controversy and you can see similar things that happened within the

United Methodist Church Earlier in the Episcopal Church, but but but the Orthodox Presbyterian Church largely because of dr.

Machen and the time period that that actually that formation of the OPC actually make the big thing amazing to think of this became

Front page news even on the New York Times in 1936 So and then that whole story is is is fascinating But for our purposes and in this first hour let me use that Chris is kind of a kickoff to this tour down down memory lane and all of your listeners who are either interested in the

Reformed Faith or have read Reformed or Calvinistic material or who are part of Reformed churches or even

Calvinistic churches I think will appreciate this window on on the 20th century and the early part of the 21st century there was within the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church will say between the 1930s and and and and and into the 1950s

But particularly the 1930s to about 1950 or so there was an internal struggle

And then the struggle was was for practical purposes between a more the more fundamentalist element what we'll call an

Evangelical element and an element that really wanted a church committed to the

Reformed Faith in everything that it did Fundamentalism thank the

Lord stood for Defending the fundamentals of the faith and in the right sense of the word militantly so that they were not going to compromise on Undoctrinal orthodoxy we can learn many can and ought to learn many lessons from that however, even dr.

Machen himself Struggled with his identity with with fundamentalism.

He believed the fundamentals, but he saw their cultural approach they're they're rather narrow focusing in on a few doctrines as missing the broader

Expanse of the whole Council of God that we would know of as the Reformed Faith and You can read about that that very interesting struggle.

He had in Ned Stonehouse's biography of just called Machen Dr. J.

Griffin Machen a biography. Well, this has something to do with the Division between the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Bible Presbyterian Church. Yeah, exactly that that would be sort of a lightning rod for this

Dr. Carl McIntyre was the leader of the more fundamentalist Presbyterians He had no problem with dispensational theology

He held to the so -called pre -tribulational Premillennial view had certain social mores

He wanted upheld in the church, for example, no smoking and and no drinking and that kind of thing

And there were frankly there was power pop personality issues at work But but but yet doc and it was it was in 1937 as a result of a departure from the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Dr. Machen had died January 1st 1937 left the power gap and but but but doctor

The the Bible Presbyterian leader. Dr. McIntyre's Dr. McIntyre was not supported by the majority of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church Separated to form the Bible Presbyterian Church, which is in itself also a very interesting story the other group what was the so -called evangelicals and these had generally a broader if not even a reformed view of the scriptures

Harold Ockengay was a leader of this group Carl Henry Who would continue to be a great spokesman for the evangelicals and did much work?

The difference there is in what I'll call the issue of accommodation with unbelief

In which there tended to be more of a dialogue model wanting to deal with with with with?

unbelieving secular thought Commendable and that wanted to really speak to secular thinking but to many evangelicalism compromised

Some of its some of its distinctive elements particularly the sufficiency of Holy Scripture There tended to be a blurring of Politics of the state and other things and and the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church Remained in what would be very clearly a

Reformed group. It was it was unique and that it was kind of an amalgam of American Presbyterianism Dutch Calvinism and Scottish Presbyterianism I'll mention some of the names there, but it really wanted throughout the 19 through the 1950s and still today

Wanted to be a very consistently reformed denomination on the American scene

I'll stop there because I don't want to do a monologue. I know you're teaming with questions Well, I do have

RJ in Westchester County, New York who asks if Machen was one of the pillars of the fundamentalist modernist controversy on the fundamentalist side

Why is it that today you can hardly find a theologically reformed?

theologian pastor or congregation that will identify itself as fundamentalist

Well, that's a good question from our RJ I Think part of it is that fundamentalism as a movement if I could put it that way

Has really taken a lot of hits it can tend to be very sectarian and their desire to be militant

They can be very very separationist I mean, maybe talk about this for a second third degree separation kind of thing and and and I think

Chris and RJ in many ways Fundamentalism has been its own worst enemy

But also, I think today there's actually some fear of using the term because when you think of fundamentalist people will often think of radical

Islam or something like that so that so that a strict adherence to fundamental doctrinal tenets

Is is equated more with a terrorist Muslim than it is with it with a with a peace -loving

Christian, so to speak So I you know, I it's a huge question, but but I think that's probably where I go with the answer for RJ That's a good question

And I'm sure that you would agree with some of the things other than the fundamentals of the faith

Some of the other things that are typically connected with fundamentalism like for instance,

I'm sure Knowing you that you do not agree with the modern Ecumenical movement that embraces

Roman Catholics no matter who they are As brothers in Christ, we even have

Rick Warren identifying Pope Francis as his Pope and That kind of thing which has the hairs in the back of my neck stand on end

So yeah, and I think the lightning rod for this Chris was in the 1950s with Billy Graham, right?

I was Billy Graham came on scene was a captivating personality and speaker he increasingly would would broaden his crusades to include liberal

Protestants and Roman Catholics and that became it became a struggle for those who believe the gospel

They appreciated that in many ways Billy Graham was was preaching Christ and yet there were they were torn because you've got these huge numbers of people coming to these crusades and supposedly many people being

Converted and yet the the heartburn that comes because of the associations that he had and I think in a real sense it's almost a metaphor for what for what evangelicalism has battled with and still does in this day and in the illustration that you mentioned

I Think that if I just brings up the 1950s and here

Chris, I know you and your listeners will will appreciate this We we read today a lot of reformed literature

Presbyterian reforms publishing company which has been on scene for a while Crossways publications, which publishes a lot of reformed or Calvinistic books banner of truth trust

We think of these as Is almost like McDonald's hamburgers, you know, you can get them any time of day

It wasn't that way in the 1950s it was in 1957 that the banner of truth trust began in England and Began to both publish and promote

Puritan works in particular and That was one of the of the agencies that God used

To really begin to spark interest in the reformed faith or Calvinism You had

Calvinistic outposts particularly in the south in in particular Baptist churches and certain independent

Baptist churches that have the guts to say they were Calvinistic But with the banner of truth trust

And and what would come later the Leicester conference in England and the banner of truth conference in in the

United States of America actually began to generate interest in in the reformed faith and then in the 1960s and this

Chris for maybe for one of your your your people that you know Would be so knows history better this would be

I think a tantalizing thing to consider in the 1960s

With the counterculture of which and of course that the counterculture had had all different Segments to it, you know, there were there were the there was the the drug scene there was the there was the music scene

There was a social action scene. There was the Marxist scene and for a time. That's what I was a part of But in the 1960s you had young people who were really asking basic questions about life about religion about what they were talking about God and reality and and And there that word radical really is important They wanted to go to the root of things and and and and sadly, of course many of them destroyed themselves in there

And in a misguided quest But not a few of them and I was in this category although kind of late in the game

But not a few of them in the late 1960s and then in the early 1970s became real genuine

Christians through what was called the Jesus movement and and other things and it's a fascinating study and And and there was a radical character to these people who were converted

They were they were asking why do we worship the way we do? Why is the church the way it is and of course many of the expressions of their

Christianity were things that that would look odd But but again, you know, there were people converted out of out of real wild backgrounds and while regenerations a work of a moment

Sanctification comes over time. Now. Why do I say all that? It was at that time that the

Reformed Faith Really began to impact beyond little bodies like the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church or the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church there was almost kind of an engrowness there as these church bodies were trying to establish their identity on the

American scene and then suddenly you you begin to hear of names like Cornelius Vantill who was professor of apologetics at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia Dr.

Vantill died in 1987 and who developed apologetics more from the perspective of intersection with secular philosophy

Better known but really a man who built on Cornelius Vantill was Francis Schaeffer Who died in 1984 who through his ministry in Switzerland La Brie in Weimar, Switzerland Francis Schaeffer had a profound ministry to People who were converted out of the counterculture people can read about that in his book

La Brie and so you have that apologetics element There was preaching began to be more common

There were Bible conferences and and and and recognized preachers who were reformed

Came into the limelight so to speak and of course the big one was was Albert Martin Who had pastored a church in Essex Fells, New Jersey for a number of years.

It was a Christian Missionary Alliance Church Pastor Martin and the leaders there began to realize there were certain things within the

Christian Missionary Alliance Church that they could not agree with They actually dissolved I believe and then reconstituted some months later as Trinity Baptist Church was in 1967 and here was a powerful

Preacher of the Word of God who was clearly and unashamedly Calvinistic in his theology less known 1964

GI Williamson who is a Really sort of like an RC sprole of the pen

GI Williamson had written a study guide to the Westminster Confession of Faith That now has been translated into many languages and that that made the reformed faith accessible to others

Jay Adams in 1970 with his book competent to counsel applied the reformed faith

I do that the doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture He applied to counseling and and each of these men and and each of these

Segments so to speak of the Christian faith that they that they served that they served

Each of these men had a powerful impact in the development of the reformed faith in the

United States And again, I'll stop I'll catch my breath and like you ask I know you're teeming with questions

Well, I have a couple of names to add Ernie Riesinger Who was the founder of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle where I'm a member and his successor

Walt Chantry if I'm not mistaken Walt Chantry's book today's gospel authentic or synthetic was used of God to draw you into the reformed faith.

Was it not? Absolutely. It was between my freshman and sophomore years in school when I was wrestling with doctrinal issues

I can remember in my potty acclamons at my lunch hours I work at the first national supermarket reading that book and and having the lights go on and of course

Walt Chantry was a graduate of Westminster Seminary Philadelphia and And Ernie Riesinger little known element of history

This is fascinating Al Martin Pastor Martin had had been wrestling with the issue of the extent of the atonement and he and Ernie Riesinger would meet somewhere midway between Carlisle and Montville, New Jersey and they would talk about doctrine and pray together and it was actually

Ernie's giving Pastor Martin John Owens volume on the atonement

I forget which one is 9 or volume 9 or something But but Pastor Martin worked through that and that's what convinced him of definite atonement that those those anecdotes incidentally are absolutely fascinating Yeah, they are and I was so honored to have the privilege of interviewing

Walt Chantry on Iron Trip and Zion twice One time when he was sitting right here in my studio in Carlisle, which was a double honor

So I'm looking forward to having him back on the program We're gonna go to a our first station break now

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own and there are a couple of people waiting To have their questions asked and answered and we'll get to you as soon as we can

But if you'd like to join them with a question of your own For our guest Bill Shishko our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com Please include your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA and I understand if you're asking about a personal or private matter that you may want to remain anonymous.

I will grant that request But if you can we would appreciate it if you could at least

Otherwise give your first name city and state and country Don't go away. We are going to be right back after these messages

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That's the private story Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man,

I would not be a servant of Christ Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity But since that wasn't the

Apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and Love if you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area

Please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 528 575 0 that's 508 528 575 0 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our

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Chris Arn's in here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia. And here's my friend. Dr.

James White to tell you why Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor

Josh Bison praise Mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the

Protestant Reformation I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Balcom Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what g3 stands for gospel grace and glory

For more details go to g3 conference .com. That's g3 conference .com

Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there Welcome back.

This is Chris Arn's and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is Bill Shishko director of Reformation Metro, New York He's also the host of the weekly live 90 -minute call -in talk show a visit to the pastor's study

Which will be debuting on WL ie 540 a .m. Radio on Long Island on November 26 god -willing and You can hear that worldwide via live streaming just as you can with iron sharpens iron radio

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arn's in at gmail .com

Chris Arn's in at gmail .com before we continue bill with what you were discussing

We do have BB in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who asks

I Understand that you were saying that there were some dispensational leanings in the

Bible Presbyterian Church But I know Pastors who are not at any way affiliated with dispensationalism

There must be a variety of thought on this. Can you confirm I have friends in the

Bible Presbyterian Church? Who are not dispensationalist the issue? I think in 1936 was is that tolerated as a view that is still in accord with the

Westminster Confession of Faith Which is the doctrinal standard for Presbyterians the Orthodox Presbyterian Church said no

Bible Presbyterian Church said yes And so therefore they had in their ranks people who had been actually influenced by dispensationalist

But but BB's observation is right Yes, and by the way, I want to thank Linda from Hilltop Lakes, Texas for Encouraging us that the sound is crystal clear via live streaming today

So seems like our friends Don Woodard and Joe Ignacio did a great job fixing the problem

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much Linda for letting us know Yes, that's and I just want to also put in a good word having said what we were just discussing

Obviously there are Precious brothers in Christ who are dispensationalist.

We're not acting like this is a cult of some kind in fact One of my biggest financial supporters of iron sharpens iron is waiting

River Baptist Church pastor Ron glass who is a thoroughgoing Calvinist but he is a dispensationalist and he

Supports my program and sponsors it even though he knows I'm not a dispensationalist and that he that he has a disagreement with me over that that's the kind of Biblical ecumenism that we were talking about earlier, isn't it that there are certain things that prohibit fellowship

But there are other things that are tertiary Areas that we need not divide and separate from obviously in congregations

These things will separate us at times But as far as fellowship and so on we can have full fellowship with brethren like this

Exactly, even though the series of books called the fundamentals that came out and I think beginning in 1912 or so Not a few of those defenses of the historic

Christian faith are always called Fundamentalism at the time were written by people who had Dispensational convictions that that was not that was not the battlefield of the time.

We were talking about defending historic Christianity Right, and of course John MacArthur is another name that many of us would

Really uphold as a modern -day hero of the faith. And so I don't want anybody to think that we're bashing

Dispensationalists we just happen to disagree with them. All right, that's right Well, you know Chris, I appreciate this time

I am looking forward to promoting Reformation Metro, New York in the next hour, but let me let me continue this tour down down memory lane where we're dealing with with sort of the

Developments with the for the a reformed faith in the 20th century in the

United States of America Remembering that the Lord says he'll build his church and we're thinking about that aspect of it here 1970s through the 1980s were a kind of a kind of time of I call it consolidation for for reformed churches and various denominations

Including the the so -called reformed Baptists which were developing at the time a lot of the debate then and Chris You've you've touched on this in some of your programs in the so -called worship wars

You were dealing with a with two different cultures that came into being more the Of the youth culture of the 70s more traditionally evangelical culture and that's an interesting topic

But for my purposes, there's other things to cover the 1990s were really really fascinating that's when you began to see the consolidation of The the reformed faith

Consolidating itself so to speak and in various reformed churches That was of course when there was the development of of the reformed

Baptists of which you were a part largely Under the leadership of Al Martin and Walt Chantry and and Ernie Riesinger who remained a

Southern Baptist and was actually part of the so -called founders movement The reformed faith still is

Having its influence and some people regard this either as a blessing others as a bane But within the

Southern Baptist Convention The the Calvinistic convictions of an owl molar and a

Tom Schreiner and so on these have had a profound influence within the the

Southern Baptist Convention among Presbyterians There was a formation of the

Presbyterian Church in America 1973 that was a group that came out from the

Presbyterian Church of the United States a largely Southern Presbyterian body and the

PCA has had a distinct reformed and Evangelical influence in the

United States when you think of leaders here you think of RC Sproul Who's a

PCA minister? I think of Tim Keller in New York City who was a PCA minister and and where I think that the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church has put more of an emphasis on You know our confessional standing and doctrinal issues and and seeing the church built

Biblically the Presbyterian Church in America without abandoning any of those things has really focused more on on Evangelism and missions and so on the

OPCs eventually as emphasized evangelism and missions, too But there's emphasis areas here

The United Reformed Churches of North America were formed and I believe the 1980s the

Christian Reformed Churches, which it had a venerable history as a Dutch Calvinistic Church body the the

Christian Reformed Churches with the back -to -God hour Had actually made tremendous inroads through radio ministry in the 1930s.

So yeah, I've had dr Joel Niederhood on this program Dr. Joel Niederhood was actually the second of the radio ministers

I forget the name first one who was on but for a long time was in the ministry there But you have a

Christian Reformed Churches that had a tremendous history there Anyway, the United Reformed Churches of North America were formed when ministers

Realized there were there were weak issue. There was weak commitments regarding women in the church Regardless of regarding the inerrancy of Scripture and so on so that there was that development

You also had of course Individuals who became very well known for their

Reformed commitments and especially in the 1980s 1990s R .C. Sproul would be among them with his

Ligonier ministry John Piper among those not Technically identified as Reformed Baptists But John Piper through his ministry at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis and through his outstanding writing

Popularized the Reformed faith and and we of course were the beneficiaries of those things the whole

Christian counseling and educational foundation that does phenomenal work with Christian counseling

Developed and then there were worldview organizations summit ministries and others that may not have been necessarily particularly reformed in dealing with the doctrine of salvation

But they made application of Reformed insight to the state To to government and so on and so forth.

It's really better. It's really better a Fascinating time and and then of course there were sad things

We're all most of your listeners will be aware of what happened with family with family radio network

That work that had been begun by a man who then was part of the

Christian Reformed Church's Harold camping that network which had been a dependable outlet for basic Reformed teaching through conference echoes through its conferences and other things

Began to really go south When Harold camping its director came out with the book?

1994 which study 94 question mark which he came out with it in 1992

Actually predicting about 99 % sure that Christ would come back in 1990 -1994 that that happily did not affect every area

Where the Reformed faith had influenced people not everybody could get a family station but those of us who could were in tremendous consternation as this man who was a

Was a very articulate defender of many Reformed distinctives Just progressively if I could put it that way just just went down the tubes until he became heretical in his in his teaching that Basically, you can't be saved if you're a part of the church, right which utterly turns the historic

Christian faith on its head And and we'll we'll there was a counter to that But let me let me get to the two thousand

I'll bet all then you can you and I can chat because this is kind of the turf Chris that you and I are familiar With from the two thousands to the present

Within I'm going to say the Reformed communities. Okay, there has been a lot of soul -searching and and a lot of Evaluation of a couple of things number one.

What really is the church? That's where we began Christ has given his head over all things the church

Which is his body the fullness of him who fills all in all? There's where the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church While it's not been as visible in some things has done in particular in the 1990s did magnificent work on Thinking about foreign missions from a biblical and Reformed perspective home missions from a biblical and Reformed perspective and began producing with Great Commission Publications, which is a joint publishing effort of the

OPC with the Presbyterian Church in America some very fine Reformed Sunday School materials and for your listeners

Chris Regardless of their doctrinal or denominational background. I really urge them to look into the materials of Great Commission Publications not

Great Commission's Publications, there's one Great Commission and there's one Great great.

I think you just put it www .gcp .org but Great Commission publications is publishes

Tremendous Sunday School materials and here's here is I think that I'd say that distinctive

But it but it's what they one of the many things they do. Well, there's Sunday School materials Really are aimed at the different age groups and whatever else

Presbyterians may not do real well They're pretty good at dealing with different age groups and they they teach the scriptures as the scriptures focus on Christ So, I mean that was a tremendous benefit within the

Reformed community and whether they're Baptist churches Presbyterian churches some Methodist churches and others many are using this material

Because of its faithfulness to the scriptures and that's why they publish the Trinity Hymnal to don't publish a

Trinity Hymnal Which is used by many. Absolutely. Yeah, that's right so so there was this thought about church life and and and and particularly pastoral ministry, which is going to kick us into the next hour when it comes and now you have

Really almost an embarrassment of riches in dealing with the church and its ministry

You think of the nine marks series that Mark Dever in Washington DC area has spearheaded

And even though I'm not a Baptist I have profited tremendously by his material about the church and discipline and the gospel and so on and it's done in a popular kind of brief way

And while we'd have great great differences Oh with the acts 29 group that formerly was led by by Mark Driscoll They nevertheless have made real inroads into bringing

Basically the reformed faith to to bikers and and to tattoo parlors

Reformed people are not usually are used to going to but but we can learn a lot from what they've done

They're the gospel coalition, which is a which is a body of Calvinistic people of various denominations

Who have kind of pooled their resources? to write responsible and popularized

Reformed statements about various issues before us and in the radio world Well, I've got to mention iron sharpens iron.

I Mean Chris, you're the one who's gone out on a limb defending all of these things that reform people so often get in trouble for Right there on the front lines, but also

Redeemer broadcasting, which is a very special place in my heart Redeemer Broadcasting began and I guess about 2004 or so and its director

Dan Elmendorf had formerly been with With family radio and and and with all of all the rest of us who would in some way been involved with that Just wept as we saw the way that that whole network just excuse the expression just went right down the toilet

Because of the really the very anti -christian leadership at the end there of Harold camping anyway

Dan started Redeemer broadcasting network in there about 2004 2005 and that was designed to be a replacement for Family radio the the goal the idea was that family stations and affiliates would would would would

Abandon their tie with with family stations because of its heresy and and would want orthodox

Programming well for many reasons that that didn't happen And and so but there's still this

Redeemer Broadcasting and all you've got to do is check Redeemer Broadcasting org but for your listeners and warming the cockles of your heart

Chris Two commitments of Redeemer broadcasting number one the historic reformed confessions

They want teaching and programming that is faithful to it's basically historic biblical

Christianity is what I call it and the other thing is apropos of the theme of this hour

They're very much church focused. They want people going to faithful churches They emphasize pastors and pastoral ministry and really have done a wonderful job

So that's that's pastor shishko's the reformed faith for dummies in the last what 80 years or so I Know you're loaded with questions.

Well, I first of all, I want to give a plug to Redeemer broadcasting by giving their website.

It's Redeemer broadcasting org. Very easy to remember Redeemer broadcasting org if anybody listening wants to jot that down and listen later on of course wait till this program is over and I'm sure you'll be blessed by Redeemer broadcasting or one of the things

I wanted to bring up Because it happened to be a discussion a part of a discussion.

I had today over lunch with a pastor he agreed with me that one of the dangers of modern evangelicalism seems to be a disdain for creeds and confessions

And when you were speaking about Harold camping before he was really an anomaly

Because even though he was had a lot of years in the

Christian Reformed Church denomination He was really an atypical Reformed elder in that for many years

Even before some of the more controversial things erupted. He was an anti confessional anti creedal

Kind of guy I can even remember him wearing his buttons no creed, but the

Bible and so on that and People misunderstand what that is.

They think that you are elevating traditions of men or teachings of men on par with the scriptures or even

Having them over the scriptures as far as your authority But these are just really when they are good confessions.

They're really just Summaries of biblical teaching aren't they? Yeah, exactly. And I mean even the scriptures themselves speak about the form of sound doctrine and and Whatever anybody says,

I believe Whatever it would be. I believe this about God. I believe this about Christ. I believe this about salvation

They're automatically giving a creed credo simply means I believe and what a confession is or what a creed is is a statement a written statement of what the scriptures teach and So biblically there there's warrant for it, but it just it's of necessity.

Everybody has a creed Here's what's scary if a minister says I I have no creed

But the Bible watch out because that pastor is going to have all kinds of things that he believes

And if he happens to be the localized Pope in a church You're gonna have to submit to his creed his individualized creed and in what you do

So that that's to say no creed, but the Bible is It's a

Trojan horse, okay Yes, it can come to your soul with a lot of enemies in it and that is a creed

No creed, but the Bible is a creed as a creed. I'll say exactly exactly right It begs the question

What the Bible say about all of these different things and and there's where for your listeners when they're wrestling

But what church is to go to ask what what is your doctrinal statement?

what do you believe and If you don't know and and and even on websites church websites should post what their doctrinal convictions are so very important a couple of the other movements within The Reformed Faith that you did not mention

And of course these could take a week -long programs to discuss individually, but two of the movements that Have either had positive or very negative influence into the church at large have been both

Theonomy and the federal vision and I have very good friends

Who are in both movements, although I have to admit that I am very much more opposed to the leanings of federal vision

Even though I'm not a theonomist I Still highly respect And really am much more at ease

Having a theonomist on my program as a guest or whereas the federal vision teaching seems to be a heartbeat away from Rome But if you could just give your own comments on those two movements, well, yeah

I appreciate your bringing that up of Greg Bonson who was well rush rushes rush Dooney was kind of the father of what's known as theonomy, which is essentially the application of the whole law of God Including the the the laws of Israel is the principles of laws given to Israel to every area of life including the state

Greg Bonson was sort of the the child of ruches rush dooney in terms of his teaching on theonomy and his book

Theonomy would be the textbook for it. Greg also was in my opinion the greatest exponent of so -called presuppositional apologetics

Theonomy and I'm not quite sure where that is. I think it's kind of diffused Once Greg Bonson died some years ago, but but you're going to have many

Who who still have a deep conviction that even the principles behind?

The laws given to Israel in some way bear on the state federal vision is

I Again, and that's I think kind of it. It's in I would call it disarray

But at least it's it's kind of morphing right now the names that have been associated with it in particular or Doug Wilson But federal vision

I think has been very much a reaction to the subjectivism of some religion going back to people's

Feelings as to whether they're saved in their own spiritual experiences unlike the pendulum of a clock

It's gone. The opposite direction is very objective if you're baptized you're a

Christian and and if you're a church member you're a Christian and and and so on and and And you could when you look at it from the perspective of what it's reacting to you can understand it

But like all pendulums it goes too far in that direction The the other thing is and in various ways really distorts the reformed confessions

Professors to believe but most significant for the federal vision is its utter confusion and many of the circles on the doctrine of Justification not that everybody who's somehow involved with the federal vision movement so to speak believes this but the confusion of faith and obedience in justification is

Utterly pernicious building on the ideas of NT Wright in England and others

That does it puts one foot in Rome with respect to justification and is extremely dangerous

Yeah, I on my old program when I had a debate with a proponent of federal vision and someone who is in strong opposition to it the proponent of federal vision when he was

Explaining his understanding of justification. I had to be honest with him and say I really cannot distinguish

What you are saying from the Council of Trent's? Description of justification which is of course for those of our listeners who don't know what the

Council of Trent was It was a Roman Catholic reaction to the Protestant Reformation where many of the specific dogmas were laid down that anathematized

Those who held to uniquely Protestant teaching, of course, there were other things involved as well that even

Protestants would oppose But some of the things that we hold dear as the pillars of our faith

Were denounced as damnable and in fact many people many countless thousands were tortured maimed and murdered because of these

Protestant beliefs Well, we have enjoyed this time with you Chris, but you're gonna you still gonna let me go on for another hour

Of course, I am I think that we've just stretched the tip of the iceberg. I'm looking forward to more conversation

In fact, we have to go to our second station break right now and if anybody else would like to join us on the air and I know there are a couple of you still waiting and we look forward to Reading your questions and having them answered on the air

But if anybody would like to join them our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com Please give me your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

USA But you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Bill Shishko I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio

And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference. He and I are going to hello, this is

Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched a TV and occasional guest on Chris's show

I Think I think that's what it's called

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta my new hometown

It is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the

Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie bachum

Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people We hope to see you there learn more at g3 conference .com

g3 conference .com Thanks, Todd, I think see you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth

Chris Arnzen here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend. Dr. James White to tell you why

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor

Josh Bison Praise Mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the

Protestant Reformation I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie bachum

Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what?

g3 stands for gospel grace and glory For more details go to g3 conference .com.

That's g3 conference .com Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there

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forward slash iron sharpens today Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is

Bill Shishko director of Reformation Metro, New York And he's the host of the weekly live 90 -minute call -and -talk show a visit to the pastor study which premieres

November 26 God willing on WL ie radio 540 a .m.

Which during daylight hours Covers all of Long Island all the five boroughs of New York City gets into parts of upstate

New York and even gets into parts of Rhode Island and Massachusetts and Northern New Jersey, Pennsylvania Connecticut, I mean it has a very wide coverage area broadcasting over 10 ,000 watts

In daylight hours and that program will be heard God willing every

Saturday 12 noon to 1 30 p .m. On WL ie 540 a .m

And we'll also be live streaming globally. So those outside of those areas

I mentioned can listen anywhere you have a computer and we'll be giving you more details on that as that is the topic of our discussion the highlighted topic for this next hour and If you'd like to join us on the air

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

before I take any more of our listeners questions bill I'd like you to just open up this half of the program

Thanks, Chris, I so appreciate this opportunity to introduce Reformation Metro, New York one of the reasons

I did the material I did in the last hour and I hope this will be of Interest to your listeners as they get a perspective on the way

The Reformed faith has grown and developed and manifested itself. One of the reasons I did that is because this hour

I want to talk about kind of our piece of the pie of the Reformed pie So to speak with emphasis on on New York on Metropolitan, New York If I had a text for this hour, it would be that that great city

Except I would change Nineveh to that great city, New York It's been such a privilege to be a pastor on Long Island in the

Metropolitan, New York area for about thirty five and a half years now and I want your listeners to be struck with the fact that in the

Metropolitan, New York area the five boroughs of the city Certainly you'll have the the eastern part of New Jersey southern part of Connecticut and even

Long Island But but if you just take the the city the five boroughs itself

You're looking at you get 20 million people one in every 16 people in the

United States of America I could put it this way lives in in New York in Metropolitan, New York and The other thing

I want your listeners to be struck with is when You minister in New York Metropolitan, New York area

You literally are ministering to people from every nation There is not a nation in the world that is not represented in Metropolitan, New York some in more scattered ways others with with larger communities but whether you're dealing with Liberians or whether you're dealing with you condoms or Haitians or Jamaicans or Portuguese or whatever it would be

They're all represented in one way or another in that great city, New York And the motto of Reformation Metro, New York is reach,

New York and reach the world The Did you want me to start you want to shoot any questions now

Chris you well, I watch well Let me just take Arnie and Perry County Wants to know during my visits to Manhattan I it seems very difficult to find on a

Sunday a truly Reformed Congregation to visit for worship.

Why is it that Manhattan seems to be very under represented? underrepresented with the

Reformed Faith Well tell tell Ernie that when I give the address for Reformation Metro, New York and my email address

I wanted to email me because I'll put him on our list and he'll see why we're so burdened for what we're doing

He can make the case for me. How's that? See that's that's precisely why

Chris Reformation Metro, New York Incorporated was was formed as a not -for -profit Corporation last year it is it's governed by a board of three

Each of whom is part of the Presbytery of Connecticut and Southern, New York of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church 1997 our General Assembly, which is the broadest governing body of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church Granted permission to develop a new Presbytery, which is a regional group of churches and we started in 1998 and There have been other other

Uniformed things in New York City. You have of course Tim Keller at Redeemer Presbyterian Church And and it's many satellite churches, so to speak in the metropolitan area

You have a United Reformed Churches of North America Congregation that is pastored by Pastor Paul Murphy, and I love

I love where they are They're in Hell's Kitchen in New York Good and a lot of reasons why it was called that primarily because it

Used to be an area that was a lot of baked goods would be there and the ovens were hot So you have that ministry in New York City?

you have Pastor Troy Green who pastors a Congregation a

Calvinistic congregation in Brooklyn and there may be others but at least these are the ones

I know But that is really really sparse when you're talking about a city of 20 million people and what's really interesting is

Harking back to the last hour the funding for some of these

Fundamentalist Bible conferences and even for part of the funding for the the series the fundamentals of the faith

Actually came from conservative churches in New York City in the early and the early 1900s churches that now are very liberal

So I mean New York City has had the prayer meeting revival that came here in the middle part of the 19th century there was the leadership of many fine

Reformed and Presbyterian men and Now it is a real wasteland and Reformation Metro, New York Wants to kind of have a piece of the pie

So so to speak and in working with Reformed churches in New York But I can tell you more about that in a moment.

You may have some other questions I just wanted to put in a plug for a church that I discovered a

Number of months ago. That was the host of the sermon audio conference, right?

Manor Church in Chelsea Manor Pastor Bill Jones is the pastor there.

This is a church that took over a Historic Dutch Reformed Church that goes back to the 19th century and It seemed to drift away from its biblical roots and Manor Church really came in and has been used of God to really

Transform that place theologically and I just want to give I'll give the website for them.

It's Manor Church dot info Man or church dot info just wanted to give that little plug

Bill Jones is a dear brother Indefatigable worker and is doing a fine work down there in the

Chelsea area. There's others. I mean, they're there I just these are the ones that I'm familiar with and work with but see the very fact

You kind of have to scratch your head to come up with it with a name shows that You know in this area of 20 million people the

Reformed faith is not represented the way it should be well Anyway, as far as the OPC goes again, the

PCA has had a quite an influence through the Redeemer Network The Orthodox Presbyterian Church since we've had a formation of a mission church in Mount Vernon, New York We had attempted a one in Brooklyn and and another in Suffolk County in the 1980s and neither of those

Really lasted for the long haul. It was kind of a testimony to the particular challenges we have here

But the Lord has blessed in our region in the formation of the of the OPC and Bohemia Which is a fascinating check community in about one mile square in Suffolk County pastor

Mike Ploughman and they have a they have a real model of a community ministry

Pastor Ploughman is actually the the chairman of the funeral of the of the Cemetery Association There and the but that gives them opportunities to minister to families

They have a food pantry and minister to the homeless It's a really neat kind of a thing

You rarely see a church that could just focus on on one square mile for ministry, but that's the

OPC and Bohemia and pastor Ploughman informed me of something that I was totally unaware of he said there are a group of Roman Catholic Czechs who revere

Jan Hus as a an Honorable man from history.

Well, obviously the Church of Rome executed him So that's was quite a surprise to me that There are those

Czechs who are Catholic that view plus as a hero. Yeah, that's very interesting I think

I know that the church of which he's speaking, but I didn't know that so that that's maybe they ought to go to Rome and tell them a little bit about what

Yeah, pastor Ploughman tremendous Ministry a wonderful servant of the

Lord have a reason incidentally for mentioning the specifics. I'll get to that a minute Cristobal Ray OPC, which was dissolved some years ago.

We started the Elmont, which is the largest second largest Hispanic Concentration on Long Island and then most of those folks ended up going to the

OPC in Franklin Square I think the opportunity Chris to work on WLIE Which is a predominantly

Spanish speaking station is a distinct blessing I'm hoping that we can somehow interface our our

Spanish speaking reformed Christians and that station We have an OPC in Queens and in Freshmeadow, Queens Which which is led by actually my son

Jonathan Shishko and and that's our that's the OPC's foray into inner city and into inner city urban missions and Then we have in Syosset the the

Trinity Church in Syosset which is a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church led by Pastor Ben Miller and And the reason

I highlight highlight these is that two things number one

You really see how God has given men to to develop

Distinctively reformed and Presbyterian ministries in Metropolitan New York, that's number one

Number two we suffer because it costs so much to do church planting in New York and and the

Redeemer Network seems to have tapped into a lot more money than we have But Reformation Metro, New York is a way to get the word out about what we're doing

And of course largely through the radio program that I'll tell you about in a minute But I want to encourage your listeners whether it's these men or Pastor Jonathan Holst who is from Wales Who pastors the

OPC in Hamden, Connecticut? Sam Chung who is a Korean Christian who is working with a church in Queens hoping to get his own

Congregation to pastor. I've already mentioned Pastor Miller and Jonathan Shishko and Mike Ploughman John Mallon who's part of our

Presbyterian. I think you interviewed John I think Chris, right? Which one John Mallon the

Christian counselor. No, I have not I think I think I contacted him and somehow it slipped through the cracks, but I have not

This fellow is a real godsend for Christian counseling and he's been a big help within the churches here for And then other men that we have

Dick Gerber who's an older man He's a few years older than I am Dick was the associate general secretary for For home missions for oh many many years and and is a very knowledgeable in church planning

So we have within our within our Presbytery we have a really quite we have a unique group of men and Ministries that they work with in churches that they work with and Reformation Metro New York is designed to give more visibility to them

It's also hopefully to raise more funds for the church planning that's projected but it's also to get the word out to people about this area

Yeah, there are as you may have encountered as well. There are a number of Christians evangelical

Christians who Say that why are you constantly dragging up this word?

Reformation from the dark ancient dusty past we are far beyond that Roman Catholic the

Roman Catholic Church is no longer torturing and executing Protestants let us join arms in this day and age of of immorality like we've never experienced before let us

Get the laws passed that condemn this and that let us get the officials elected here and there that will be our

Champions to rid society of all these moral ills and we've got to stop this division with our

Roman Catholic friends now The world the Reformation really is not over in regard to what divides us.

Is it right? No, not at all Not at all, yeah, I think Chris sometimes people can confuse

Cobelligerence and some things with allies In certain things we are cobelligerence with with the

Roman Catholic Church Of course, the big one that comes up is abortion I have no problem if there's a there's a protest against against abortion some someplace

Although I think there's better ways to spend your time to being part of protest But if there's gonna happen, you're gonna have Roman Catholic friends that are there and and certainly we stand with them against Against the killing of the unborn.

I didn't like to use the word abortion. We're talking about the killing of the unborn I think increasingly as Christians using the big name for it as Christians of Whatever stripe are being opposed in our country

We will see what we do in other nations of the earth where when it comes to defending

One's rights and promoting justice Roman Catholics and Protestants will to some extent work together so that that's a cobelligerent, but not allies when it comes to doctrine and Here again, we're going back to the

Three legs of the stool as I shared with you in an email earlier today Chris, but something else The are the scriptures the final and the sufficient authority for faith and life or is it scripture plus tradition huge difference and especially in a milieu a culture that that is is

Really raising the question of authority you cannot in any sense of the word unless you've got severe vision problems

Say that we are allies with one group that says the scriptures alone and final authority and sufficient and the other that says

This is scripture plus tradition the second leg of the stool and the one we usually think of is how is a person how does a person become right with God and for the

Roman Church And and with a with a peril of anathema Given to all those who differ it is essentially our faith plus our grace infused obedience grace infused obedience grace that comes from the church and so Justification is a process and it's a process that's never really complete in this life

And it's a process that we contribute to our works that is Diametrically absolutely diametrically opposite the biblical teaching

That a person is justified by faith alone in Christ alone The New Testament never speaks of people in the process of being justified it says that they're that they are justified by faith a huge difference and and and and and frankly,

I mean this is for a whole other day, but the very fact that even supposedly

Reformational Protestants would say there is no difference with the Roman Catholic Church on this or it's not an issue what that really says is it is a very very weak view of what salvation is and Then the third that we don't think about very much is that for the

Protestants every believer was a priest They still maintained that there was a ministry that there were elders that they were that there were deacons

But but these were not priests they were the each believer is it where the church is called a holy priesthood and Peter and and therefore you don't go to the separate guy behind the screen for a confessional you go to Christ and Even that that whole concept of elevating a priesthood in a particular way

Made kind of a buffer between the individual and Christ So and then and then the larger question larger issues why

I love the term ongoing biblical Reformation is That the Reformation was about going back to the scriptures about everything

I think is I think is Kevin DeYoung put it one of his posts last week He said that you know, the the call of the

Reformation wasn't so much forward as backward What do the scriptures say and and and in truth?

What did the early church say about things but that wasn't the final authority whereas for the Church of Rome It's it's really it's it's the

Magisterium, it's the declarations of the church today Regardless in many ways of what the scriptures say.

So yes Ongoing biblical Reformation the word is Semper Reformanda always reforming we have a listener bill in Slovenia and I'm going to slightly edit his question because he mentions a specific pastor in church

And I'd rather not do that right now but I will incorporate his question into a broader question

He seems to be concerned that theistic Evolution is a presence amongst some professedly reformed churches.

He wants to know how would this view? Be compatible with Orthodox Christianity it isn't

Point blank and I would probably know of whom he's speaking and I appreciate you not mentioning the name

This this issue actually came up in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church Maybe 20 years ago one of our ruling elders believed that there was an animal ancestry of Adam and He he was

Charged he was found to be guilty of holding a view that was not in accord with our standards

He that was upheld by the Presbytery and subsequently by the General Assembly so the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church has gone on record as Standing against theistic evolution and any of its emanations

Basically theistic evolution And it's in its most crass sense is is the theory of evolution with putting

God in it somehow and And that simply is is not it's not sufficient

It's kind of a ruse in a way The Scriptures clearly teach and I know

I'm preaching to the choir here the Scriptures clearly teach The New Testament teaches that there's a literal

Adam and a literal Eve Do you not know Jesus said it he who made them from the beginning made them male and female and so if a person is going to adopt theistic evolution no specific creation of Adam and Eve then a person's going to really conflict with the

New Testament Paul uses actually Adam and Christ as the two great personages of history and you know an

Adam As in one man's sin as by one man's sin entered into the world and so death by sin

So by one man redemption came Paul goes back to Adam and Eve and their creation as he speaks of order in the church

So a theistic evolution is frankly a very raw challenge

To what both the Old and the New Testament teaches would you say that it appears to me?

that there is a lot of Growing sympathy towards theistic evolution by some who profess to be reformed because there is historically a connection between The academic world and reformed theology and perhaps people are trying to Not want to they don't want to appear out of step with modern science and so on So they unfortunately buy into the fact or buy into that.

These are facts This is a better way of putting it sure that they seem to just be swallowing what modern scientists say

But they're completely ignoring the fact that there are scientists some of them who are not even

Christian who are Distancing themselves from evolution because they can't find any scientific evidence for it.

Yeah, exactly You know Chris I've said and I want to preface this by saying that that I mean,

I love I love education I love learning I think that any minister of the gospel needs to be a man who

I know When the Apostle Paul said bring me the the books especially the parchments and the the other scrolls of the

Old Testament He was a man of books. So I love learning but Chris the bane of Particularly reformed

Institutions and beyond that has been the itch for academic acceptance the itch to be

Accepted regarded esteemed by the academic community much of which is rank.

It is frankly unbelieving and I have for many years just Abominated that whole idea when people talk about the accrediting agency for a seminary

I and I realize there's financial issues and all of the stuff in it But but to my rather simple mind, there's one accreditation agency for any seminary and that's the church

Is the seminary an instrument to form men who are faithful men will labor as pastors and teachers and churches?

But yeah, it is that itch for academic acceptance and recognition The other thing and this would be really for another development.

I I and again I don't want to be cavalier in all of this But there is a point that Christians in our day

Chris are going to have to say the Emperor has no clothes That wonderful Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale

You know There's a ravine King has these people weave these garments that were actually no garments at all

And he's too proud to say there's no garment. They put it on him. He goes out walks before the people

He's completely, you know in the buff And and everybody is too afraid to criticize the

King's garments and finally that one little boy says but the King has no clothes on and When it comes to things like the theory of evolution,

I'm going to give a specific in a minute the theory of evolution gender issues in our culture fully realizing that sin creates gender identity issues

I'll take that away. We're going to have to say in many cases. The Emperor has no clothes. This is foolishness now

I'm going to give a plug for a book and it's not even written by a Christian. It's written by an atheist And increasingly even within the world of atheists

There are there are criticisms of things like the theory of evolution the book by Tom Wolfe W -o -l -f -e the kingdom of speech.

It's about a less than 200 pages Tom Wolfe was famously known for bonfire the vanities

Thomas Wolfe is no friend of biblical Christianity or any form of Christianity, but in that Absolutely fascinating book.

I don't even know what to call it History it's not a historical novel. It's not a history book. It's but it's it's kind of historical commentary

He takes to task Charles Darwin and the 20th century

Noam Chomsky who was in the field of linguistics because of their acceptance of Darwinism even though they realized

That Darwinian evolution cannot account for the uniqueness and the power of human speech and In that book the kingdom of speech you come to it

I won't give it away you come to the last couple of pages of that book and don't read that first Start at the beginning when you come to the last two pages

Tom Wolfe makes one of the strongest Statements about a biblical view of words and speech that you will read anywhere

So it's not just it's not we're not the only ones who are criticizing though We're saying of the theory of evolution.

The Emperor has no clothes Wow, I gotta get a hold of that book By the way,

Joe in Slovenia Thank you so much for submitting a question and please keep spreading the word about iron sharpens iron in Slovenia and also spread the word about a visit to the pastor's study

Which is debuting God willing November 26th, so be great if Pastor Bill actually receives phone calls from Slovenia because Pastor Bill's show is going to be a live

Call -in show. So what you're gonna let me talk about the next half hour, right? Exactly And we're going to our final break right now.

And if anybody would like to join us our email address It was Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

We still have a couple of people that I haven't gotten to yet and we will get to you as soon as possible But Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

is the email address and please give us your first name your city and state and country of residence Unless this is a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Bill Shishko Iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars a year -round

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Bringing a new life to your home Welcome back. This is Chris Orns And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes in the lab in the next half hour to come

Our guest has been and will continue to be Pastor Bill Shishko, and he is the director of Reformation Metro, New York And he is the host of the soon -to -be

Debuting broadcast a visit to the pastor's study Which is near and dear to my heart because I can remember years ago when

Pastor Bill was a client of mine on WMCA 570 a .m.

Radio and he would come into the studio with me in New Jersey and we would record live actually, we broadcast live broadcasts and Have a visit to the pastor's study and we would also have recordings of Handel's Messiah on a number of Christmases that were between 90 minutes and two hours long.

We might even had a couple of three hour programs That's I recall But there's a lot of reminiscing and a lot of nostalgia for me connected with this before I return to our interview.

I Presenting iron sharpens iron. That's the doctrines of grace conference

Sponsored by the Alliance of confessing evangelicals in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania November 11th and the 12th

Speakers include dr. Joel Beakey Anthony Carter and Tony Morita Two of those speakers have been guests on iron sharpens iron, especially dr

Beakey has been on many times and was just on recently he is Certainly one of the bright lights of teaching in our day and age and He is the also the founder of Reformation Heritage Books and just a really powerful preacher and teacher

And if you'd like more details about attending the doctrines of grace conference on November 11th and the 12th in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania Go to Alliance net org

Alliance net Net -org and click on events at the top of the page and the very first event that will pop up is the doctrine of doctrines of grace conference so I hope to see you there and please introduce yourself to me at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth if you if you are in the listening audience today and and are going there as a result of Hearing these promotional messages for that event.

So I look forward to meeting you Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com if you care to ask a question of Pastor Shishko on anything in regard to either

Reformation Metro, New York his radio program or even anything involving reform theology in general

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com So tell us about the soon -to -be -launched.

God -willing Visit to the pastor's study Thanks, Chris Well Reformation Metro, New York is the umbrella group that has a visit to the pastor's study is one of its one of its ministries

Reformation Metro, New York is under the oversight of a minister couple of ministers

Presbytery of Connecticut and Southern New York of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church And and basically it's a way of kind of getting the word out there about what we're doing in New York But also providing reformed resources for churches

This is not an individual who's promoting his personal ministry. It's really extending a church ministry out to others

In time there will be the production of a series of at least they call them now vimeos

I don't know what they'll call them then but to tidbits based on my Pastoral theology class the reformed pastor that I've done at Greenville Seminary That's designed to give ministers bite -sized material dealing with the call to the ministry dealing with leadership dealing with Dealing with the minister is a man the minister in his work of rule

Minister in his work of shepherding and so on that would be farther down the line

We've been urged not to bite off more than we can chew In the works is what we're calling

Reformation Seminary of the Air that will be taking the

Westminster Confession of Faith that's adopted by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church Putting it breaking it down into three years probably 11 chapters per year and in bite -sized

Interactive ways of 10 minutes is amazing about 10 minutes just introducing people to the to these elements of historic

Christianity known as the Reformed Faith and Represented in in the Westminster Confession and then after that we are envisioning doing the

Heidelberg Catechism as well one of the things that that would be used for actually be archived and it will be

Something that could actually be used in connection with officer training. So you have something for pastors Something for the the training of elders and deacons in the church and then the one you've mentioned

Oh, which is my darling for right now a visit to the pastor's study Which will debut

God willing on November 26th Saturday, November 26th on WLIE radio, which is 540 a .m

For those of you in the in the New York and you're right Chris is that quite the coverage? I picked it up in Hartford, Connecticut and throughout all of Long Island and then most of Manhattan and so on but And your your listeners can go to WLIE WLIE 540 a .m.

Dot -com WLIE 540 a .m. Dot -com Visit to the pastor's study as you mentioned is

Is finally the weekly production of something that I've done over the years since I began in the pastorate in 1979

Back, then I was in a station on Saturdays. Interestingly, I think like between 10 and 11 or something and in North Charleston and did a visit to the pastor's study call -in program and The Lord used that in that area and then of course

Chris you and I have done similar things through WMCA radio This enables me to do the telephone talk program

Between 12 and 1 p .m. On Saturdays and then between 1 and 1 30.

There's an additional 30 minutes and Actually at this point we're looking at making that more of a commercial program

On the theme of God and your health, but we're still in process of working on that But at least 12 to 1 o 'clock a visit to the pastor's study and I want to give your listeners the phone number

They can use so they can write it down because I'm anxious to get their phone calls On the phone number to a visit to the pastor's study six three one preceded by a one one six three one nine five five five four zero zero one six three one nine five five five four zero zero

Beginning November 26 dial that number. You'll get a visit to the pastor's study the this program

Chris Is to bring pastoral ministry to the radio. This is not the

Bible answer man This is not a guy talking with you about how to manage your funds. Although questions like that may come up It's what people would expect when they visit a pastor's study and sadly

It less and less Pastors make themselves available as pastors

They tend to have other duties that they do but this kind of brings it on kind of an old -school Pastor and let's people visit him via the media will do there'll be various things

Some of the shows may be more like you do with some interviews at the beginning Others I'll be having local local probably beginning with Orthodox Presbyterian ministers and we'll be chatting about some things and people can listen over our shoulders

But in most cases I'll start off with dealing with a pastoral issue like like Marriage divorce issues or or depression is an issue or church

Disciplinary issues or dealing with cults those kinds of things and so there'll be the so -called

Monologue and then then the questions will will come in through that Obviously more as we develop a listenership, but that will be beginning

God willing November 26th From 12 noon to 1 p .m. W LIE, which hails from Ronkonkoma, Long Island and Especially any of your listeners who speak

Spanish should check out W LIE 540 a .m. Dot -com and they'll find an assortment of programming

I'm not sure if any of its reformed, but at least they'll find out about about things being done on W LIE but it's all under the theme of Everyone needs a pastor and My hope from this is that number one will get listeners from this area

Which is the area in which I serve as a regional home missionary And we will get people who are interested in either starting reformed churches or bringing about ongoing biblical

Reformation to the churches that they're in or just as you mentioned are interested in the reformed faith

And I'm looking forward to following up pastorally with all of those things I've been encouraged to maximize my pastoral experience in these years as regional missionary that will do that The other is that when listeners because you can stream on W LIE When we get listeners from other areas as you do,

I don't know what we would do with people from Slovenia I'd have to do some real checking of our churches over there

But the goal is to get people into faithful churches wherever they are

Remember, we're building on the theme of the church. Let me at this point mention to Chris That God willing this will be simulcast at least at 12 o 'clock to 1 o 'clock p .m.

Program This will be simulcast on Redeemer Broadcasting and as you mentioned last hour people can access that through Redeemer broadcasting org

And Redeemer is a non -commercial Christian network and since the first hour will be non -commercial we'll be able to simulcast this and all of the

Redeemer terrestrial stations and Those who stream to Redeemer will be able to pick this up.

So it will it will Really have an outreach throughout the nation and the world and particularly

To the churches of what we call the Napark Church's North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council and then two other sites

Although I'm not pushing them a lot because I have to update them but in time people could just look up Reformation Metro, New York org and They'll get updates on the work of Reformation Metro, New York And then also visit the pastors study org in time.

There'll be a blog there once a week It'll be a short thing, but that will be another way by which people can can stay in contact with me and I learned having been the only

English program for a time on WNYG Radio on Long Island when it started off as an

English -speaking contemporary Christian station It was purchased by a

Spanish network a radio contigo Nuevo and I was the only English -speaking

Christian program on there and I made it a point to always let people know if you hear

Spanish programming when you tune in Don't be alarmed. You don't have the wrong station. Just keep listening

And in fact in your case if you hear Hindu programming Because there's a

Hindu program on immediately before directly before your program, so hopefully there'll be

Hindu listeners who Embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ I'm already praying about that.

I want to see some of these Hindus converted to Christ. That's great. Yeah You know

Chris, let me mention this too. I want to give a couple of I want to give my email address I have two of them that I use.

One is my last name shishko sh i sh ko shishko dot and then the digit one at OPC org and that's a common moniker for OP ministers shishko sh i sh ko dot the digit one at OPC org or you can use w shishko w sh i sh ko at gmail .com

I'd like your listeners who are listening right now Just to shoot me an email quickly, and if you're interested in the printed material on Reformation Metro, New York I'd be glad to send it to you

We can add you to our our database of people who are following that work, but I'd love to hear from your listeners because You're you're emphasizing reform distinctives and kind of a broader sense and and how that Intersects with with unbelief and aberrant forms of Christianity.

What we're doing is kind of the other side of the coin it's how the Reformed faith works itself out in pastoral ministry and church ministry and So there's there's definitely a symbiosis between between your listeners and ours

Chris Well, we do have a listener who's using an alias and The alias is revenant by grace

So I don't know where he is Writing from what city state or country probably some place in New York, and he's afraid of a mafia.

I Didn't know that the mafia was getting upset about the intrusion of evangelical

Christianity into their Chris you know they are Roman Catholics, and you know you're that's right

Well Revenant by grace asks he says dr.

Shishko. Do you have a doctorate yet? He says could you please comment on the reformed aspects of David Platt's Theology he is the president of the

International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention He seems to have some reform leanings, but also recently changed some policies

Regarding missionary qualifications to allow those who affirm the gift of speaking in tongues intelligible speech he has in parentheses as Qualified for missionary service with the

IMB. Thanks. I wasn't aware of the last thing I do get the

Southern Baptist News Service Daily will money through Friday thing. I really appreciate their their emphasis on on evangelism

And it's in it's in on one of these Presbyterians who believe we were meant to learn from others And I was pleased when

David Platt was appointed to their director of foreign missions Whatever the title is his book.

I think it's called radical I read some years ago and was very very moved by it

I it's it's kind of like we talked about the last hour Chris that radical counterculture

The radical mindset of people converted out of the counterculture in the 60s III think has it is kind of its repristination in the

David Platt and others I wasn't aware of this current development and Therefore don't want to comment on it

But if that's true, I would be deeply saddened by it the idea that the gift of tongues

Continues is is really really misguided and wrong for this reason the gift of tongues

Was essentially the gift of speaking the Word of God by immediate revelation in a foreign language and first Corinthians 1414

Paul says when I what I hear you so I was I pray when I pray in a tongue or My spirit prays or the

Holy Spirit in me prays, but my mind uses the Greek word Ah car passes unfruitful and it's a technical language for the bypassing of Paul's Basically his

Greek Hebrew vocabulary so to speak his own vocabulary database so to speak

So taking over his mind and vocal mechanism that what that what the tongue speakers spoke?

was the Word of God in a foreign language and to say that that gift continues today is going to say one of two things either a a

Person must develop a non -biblical or less I say less than biblical or non -biblical view of tongues in other words something other than the giving of special revelation or If it adopts the biblical view of tongues it it really treads out into the deep dangerous waters of saying that somehow

God continues to speak to us in addition to the Word of God I would

I would not think that's what David Platt would believe at all But if in fact this has happened to the

Southern Baptist Convention that that is not a healthy thing by the way revenant by grace

If you are a first -time questioner because I don't recognize that email address

Send me your full name and mailing address. I will not announce it you seem to be Bent on remaining anonymous

Send me your full name and mailing address and you will receive absolutely free of charge a New American Standard Bible a beautiful edition of the

NASB that has an embossed cross on the cover. It's just a really excellent size to carry around on visitations and Not small enough to fit in a shirt pocket

But you could fit it in a coat pocket or easily fit it in a briefcase By the way, I apologize if you're a woman because I called you a he

I know and you may be a woman if you Were a woman you could easily fit it in most purses and pocketbooks as well

But if you would email us your full name and mailing address, you will be getting one of those

NASB Bibles in the very near future God willing and thanks for writing something about that whole issue of the sign gifts

I View it in time. I'd view very differently those churches and pastors and individuals who were already

Charismatic or Pentecostal who have come to the doctrines of grace. I view them differently than those people who?

become Charismatic or Pentecostal and I'm not saying that I think that it's okay to remain in error because I disagree with the

Continuous view or the non cessationist view, but do you share that?

I mean, isn't there a difference that you see between somebody because obviously as we all

Go through the sanctification process over Sometimes decades. In fact, we were supposed to be going through it until we're in heaven

But there is a growth that we should be patient with in individuals as far as their understanding of biblical truth

Chris I've been impressed for years that Jesus dealt differently with the religious leaders representing a

Representing error particularly the Pharisees and the Sadducees in his days in which he excoriated them for their hypocrisy

For their legalism and even for their for their taking away from the Word of God by their traditions on the other hand

The people he was dealing with had been under the influence of of one or the other of these different groups

And it was for these that that Jesus Jesus hardly the word that's used is when he was grieved with with the word

Splunk not word for for intestines. He he actually if I could put it this way It's almost like he had colitis when he realized how tragic it was that these were people without a shepherd

Now they had shepherds, but they were false shepherds and so they weren't shepherds and that that's got to be our attitude toward if I could put it this way to rank and file of People who are under any under the influence of any religious system

You take them from where they are and move them along and I think the other thing that's been helpful for me

Is is to is to is to hear it? I've heard it put in various ways the charismatic movement is in one sense the payment for the unpaid bills of the church

We have been all very often. This is something to consider on one of your future programs

We've been beset by what's been called reformed deism where you have this sovereign God up there but he really doesn't impact the lives of people today and And it breeds a deadness and a sterility and again pendulum, right?

You've got you're gonna have a reaction to this that can come out and things like the charismatic movement

Take people from where they are No What do you make of some of those who defend the charismatic movement who will use?

Martin Lloyd -Jones as Someone who shared their convictions on the sign gifts.

Well number one some of the stories about dr Lloyd -jones, I think are urban legends regarding his supposed support for certain religious groups the

United States on the other hand There's no doubt in his studies on John that Martin Lloyd -Jones who'd had no formal theological training essentially adopted a

Pentecostal view of of Pentecost and the and the giving of the spirit his material on the ceiling of the spirit and his commentary on Ephesians 1

Is pure Pentecostalism. It is not faithful to the text But it but in fact actually

I've written an article called the those ceiling and witnessing work of the Holy Spirit That is available through Greenville Seminary that deals with this.

But yes, sadly, there's an example where dr Lloyd -jones is Welsh. It's Is is

Welsh Experientialism so to speak I'm afraid prevailed over solid theology and when you say he was untrained he was an

MD though He was terrific he was a diagnostician of the Queen I think but but but he was not formally trained in theology

And that's that was sad, right? Well, I just want to make sure that we give your websites

There is Reformation Metro NY org Reformation Metro NY for New York org.

You can also go to visit the pastors study org

Visit the pastor study org. Do you have any other contact information that you care to share? I would love it.

Those websites got to be updated. I'd rather people just email me at shishko sh is h ko dot and then the digit one at OPC org or W shishko

At gmail .com. I'd love to hear from your listeners And if you're so kind as to send your address, which apparently

Revenant by grace doesn't want to do I'll be glad to send you material on Reformation Metro, New York Great, and if you could remain on the phone after we go off the air because I just want to say a final greeting to You brother and I want to thank everybody who listened to today's program

I want to thank again all of you who prayed with me for the audio problems of the plaguing the program to be rectified as they have been obviously and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater