Romans 15:29-16:1 - God's Roles for Women in the Church, Pt. 1 (04/02/2023)

Greetings, Good News, and the Coming Study in Romans 16

Good morning everyone. Good to see you all. That was great news about Jeremy. He got me all excited now. I love that family they're just Really an awesome family. That's so good in and you can bet it's the school and your relationship with them.

That's bringing them back and God will bless you for that. Yeah, they've always loved our church. They're I don't know if it's his or her parents that are kind of big in our side and they wanted them there.

You know and that that I'm a grandpa that makes sense to me. So I've tried not to hold it against them. But anyway, that's fantastic. You guys will love this family if they do choose to come and stay with us.

All right. Well It's a little quiet in here today, but it could be because we have a little bit smaller crowd I don't know or maybe you're somber for some reason or Whatever it is, it's okay. Sometimes it's so funny it from up here because sometimes you're so fellowshipy.

You can't even start the service, you know. Alright, well, let's Let's go back to Romans 15 29 just for a second because we're actually Jumping into chapter 16, which is the last chapter of the book. Which means we'll be going into a new book and I'm praying about this.

You can pray with me about it and I would like I think from here to go to the book of Acts. Perhaps next and then after that first and second Corinthians might be interesting. So we'll see if you Have other thoughts tell me it could change my mind and my mind's not made up.

I'm just praying about it because we got a whole chapter to go. So we have plenty of time to figure out where we're going next. That's a joke. But anyway, like a whole chapter could be a year soon we'll be into the book of Acts okay, so Let's pray and I'd like us to just go back and look at verse 29 of chapter 15 just for context.

Lord Thank you so much for the service already today for the great news. You've given us during the prayer session and Thank you for hearing our prayers. We ask you to teach us Holy Spirit we thank you for writing this book An eternal book and bringing it from eternity into time and space and giving it to us and protecting it For us and our children our children's children help us to learn it today in Jesus name.

Amen what a fantastic interesting Sunday school lesson it was today with brother Ben and Today is his birthday. So it's a special day for all of us and for him I would imagine but He did a great job. It was so interesting listening to John Calvin's commentary on the verse in Malachi.

That he was covering very very fascinating stuff. These are not as difficult to interpret as that one was these are pretty plain and as we go into chapter 16, I don't know if you've looked ahead, but it's like he's commending a whole list of names people that worked with Paul in his ministry and it could be easily just Read past and skip it and go to the next thing.

But I don't you think that if God? Himself chose to put those names in the one Bible that will ever be the eternal book God's Word that we ought to take a look at those names and see if there's anything there to learn.

So I think we will and we might find some very interesting things. We'll see it's it is a little difficult to make a chapter like that interesting. But when you look into these people and what God can teach us through them, I think I think we'll change our minds.

Paul’s Desire to Visit Rome and the Blessing of the Gospel

Well, let's go back for context here Romans 15 29. And I am sure that when I come to you I shall come in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ. So Paul is has sent a letter Forward to the church at Rome and he's telling him but I want to come see you in person.

I don't want to just communicate Back and forth with a letter and then things that I hear about what's going on in your church I want to come see you face to face. I want to hug you. Give you a holy kiss and and see you in person.

And so he plans to do it and When he comes he's come in the fullness of the Holy Spirit and You know you think about this he says in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ now He's bringing the gospel to him they already have the gospel they're saved they're some of his spiritual children and What does he mean when he's going to come in the blessing of the fullness of the gospel he means the preaching is going to be a blessing to him and they're going to be a blessing to him and then He says I beseech you Brethren for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake and for the love of the Spirit.

I don't think it's interesting that he mentions two persons of the Godhead there. What he's going to ask them to do is pray for him. Paul is asking the church to pray for him Paul and he says I want you to do it for Jesus's sake and be caught now sometimes the word for In English can mean because of in the Greek but underneath the little word for the Greek word can mean because of.

I think it means that here so I want you to pray for me for Jesus's sake and Because of the love of the Holy Spirit. So as the Holy Spirit brings God's love into our hearts, which that's where love comes from.

By the way, God is love the Holy Spirit who dwells in us makes us able to love others rather than just ourselves and because of that love In them he's asking them to pray for Paul. So the very love that God put in our hearts should cause us to pray for each other.

We shouldn't do it because we have to we should do it because we love each other and that's what Paul is saying. Now, what's he wanted to pray for? Well several things. One is that the Jews He would be protected physically from them now think about who the Jews were they were legalists so you should pray for your ministers that they would be protected from Religious people who are legalist.

Legalizers who will attack them and say bad things about them and maybe do bodily harm because a legalist hates grace. They literally hate it. I had a Mormon a young Mormon elder. They're they're like 18 and they call them elders, but he tried to reach across my desk and grabbed me by the neck.

One time he got so angry and all I did was was I pointed out that his salvation wasn't going to work because it was all by the blood of Jesus when I said that phrase blood of Jesus he reached across that desk and tried to grab me and Raymond whipped him and sent him out.

Not really not really he would have but anyway, so they hate they hate grace right and be protected from those that don't believe and That also when he took this love offering back to Jerusalem that they would accept it why they're stiff-necked Jews, right and they're poor is dirt.

They don't have anything and he's collected money from all the Gentiles. Well, will they take Gentile money? That's his problem. See see he always had this problem. The Jews did not like the Gentiles, but they're giving them money and he says pray that they'll take the money, right?

That's what he's asking about here. It's kind of funny. I think and so. And the last prayer was that he could come to see them in person with joy by the will of God and Be refreshed with fellowship with these people.

Then he says now the God of peace be with you all amen and that leads us into chapter 16 now. So he is excited about coming to see these folks. Well chapter 16 verse 1 he begins this Series of commendations for people in the first one.

In fact, many of them are women if not most. I mean, it's just it's amazing how many women there were that ministered to Paul and it makes you wonder where the men were sometimes but Look what it says.

I commended to you Phoebe our sister. Which is a servant of the church, which is at Sin sin crea is how that's pronounced sin crea. Does anyone have a different version than the King James and you would read that verse to me this morning?

You may have that you may or may not. I mean, I know you could get one on your phone. They want you to look it up a different version on your phone. I know it might blow your phone up but Six Roman 16 one.

Everyone listen carefully. Yeah, so what version is that? Try another one. Try. I don't know try the New American Standard see what that one would say. Oh. We don't even have it, okay. Well, let me just save you the time.

Many of the modern English versions the word servant would be translated deaconess in. In fact most of the modern versions it calls her a deacon right there. That's problematic and we'll talk about that in a minute.

The King Jack Lee translates its servant, which is a servant. She is a servant of church which is at sinchia. So we're going to talk about Phoebe a servant of the church for a little bit here now. It's interesting.

There's no doubt that this woman meant a lot to Paul and and I mean he names her first in this chapter and She had done a lot in the Lord's service. We'll see a little bit of that in a minute, but There's a huge movement among liberal theologians in this country and in the world among false teachers.

Denominations such as the among the Pentecostals the charismatics the Methodists and others. To bring women into positions of leadership in the church that are not ordained by God. Now there are some positions of leadership that are ordained by God for women.

Titus is an excellent book to read about that, but we're not going to go there today. But the point is I'm saying there's a big movement to place women in positions that are not ordained by God. Phoebe is a person that is often cited as a woman in authority in the New Testament Church and Even called a deacon and they use her to try to teach that women should strive and pray about God giving them these types of leadership positions in the church some of which are not ordained by God not blessed by God in fact.

Hated by God and that is not too strong of a word. Because if you look among the Hebrews throughout the Old Testament times and even in the book of Revelation. Which is written in such an interesting way that the style of that book is so interesting.

But it's the Holy Spirit who wrote the whole Bible, correct? So you look at these places in the scripture both Old and New Testament a woman out of place is used as a picture of Evil and uncleanness isn't that interesting throughout the Bible times both Old Testament and New Testament?

When we really understand that that's God's viewpoint. That it is disgusting when a woman is In a place that's out of place in a place of authority. That's not where God wants her that it disgusts God then it makes it an important topic.

Would you agree with that? You Know so many women will use this excuse and I have a particular one in mind. She's in heaven now. So she's in perfect agreement with me on this at this point, but while she was on the earth.

She was not but they would just say well if the men won't step up the women have to anybody ever heard that in a church scenario if the men won't step up the women have to. I Had a man and I still respect so much in many ways.

It was one of The men who was one of my teachers when I was very young walked up to this woman in the foyer of the biggest church in Mahea and She said that to him and he looked at her. He didn't she was smiling thinking it's cute, you know, and he didn't smile.

He looked at her and stared her squinting eyes and says you are totally Unqualified to teach men in the church and he walked away. Oh, but she had nothing to do with him for the rest of history nor he her but I mean he actually got it, right?

Because she was teaching Bible study doctrinal classes to men and God does not allow that. There are things women are supposed to do in the church one of which is she is supposed to teach to women the younger women how to be good wives and good moms and how to Behave in the household and and I'm not thinking that it's even wrong to teach doctrine to the young women.

But it doesn't mention that in the Bible. So you'd be going beyond the Bible if you did that thinking that maybe it's okay. It's not necessarily wrong. But it's not mentioned as good by methodology so women basically are supposed to teach the younger women how to be good wives and good moms and How to keep the house right in a whole place, you know, if they own land.

How do you how do you oversee the whole place Proverbs 31 woman read that sometime remind yourselves what it is. And the the older women are supposed to teach to the younger women how to be that it doesn't say anywhere else.

They're supposed to teach anything other than that. No, I'm not saying that It's wrong to teach doctrine, but I'm saying the Bible doesn't speak to that issue. So we don't know. So, I don't know. But I do know what it does say so there are places where it gives the proper Role of the woman in the church and there are places where it very distinctly shows what is improper and disgusting to God.

And you say well brother David, you're you know, nobody in this church too much has other views on this, but we do have crowd out there in the internet world and anyone can go to our Website and hear every sermon we ever preach going back a long way.

Thanks to been been back there putting them out there and This is a particular problem. There are a couple of big problems in the modern church right now that we can identify. One is this problem of Putting women in inappropriate roles in the church all across the country more and more denominations are falling into this myth this false Idea that it's okay with God to do that.

Even the homosexuals and lesbians in the pulpit, but I mean we're not even going there today. We're just talking about the role of the proper role of women is Not to be in the pulpit teach if they're men in the room probably not to be in the pulpit even if it's just women and little girls but It is a a problem in the in the American Church in particular right now.

The second one is the charismatic movement with the tongue speak the false tongue speaking the false faith healing and that huge movement. Those are the two biggest problems in the church and you say well, there's worse problems of that.

Well, not really because when you look at Scripture What it shows that when you put women in inappropriate positions in the church False doctrine comes from that and then from false doctrine comes. You always get into idolatry because you begin worshiping a different Jesus than the Bible teaches in a different God than the Bible teaches so that's idolatry which leads to physical adultery and Fornication and uncleanness in the church and it just spreads and it permeates like leaven in a loaf of bread and It's a major problem.

So those are two of the major problems in the church. So it's funny That I wasn't gonna go here. This wasn't gonna be the main thing I talked about with Phoebe. But now it is because what's funny is when I went out like Ben did and I don't often consult Commentaries much in my old age like I did it when I was younger but sometimes I do and I began to read and I even went out on the internet and looked at what people were saying about Phoebe and most of what I saw they were using her calling her a deacon and imploring women to Ask God and seek God that he would give them leaders a position of positions of leadership in the church across the country.

I saw that again and again. I'm going oh my goodness I think the Lord wants me to address this not so much for you guys. But then again, you can always use it at Christmas when your family wants to argue with you about it, right?

Maybe you can get some ammunition here, but mainly for our audience that across the world it might run across this. Because you guys understand these things but so we have these problems predominantly in the groups I mentioned and They will come to Phoebe and use her as an excuse to disobey God.

And I don't think Phoebe would appreciate that would she and she'd probably be glad when that era of time is over. Now there is a passage that speaks to the subject of women teaching and preaching doctrine to men and it is in the context of causing confusion in the church where this is mentioned and You can turn to first Corinthians 14 if you turn there, please I like you to see it with your eyes not just listen to me, but see the scripture, please.

Either in your Bible or your phone Bible or whatever. Is that a good phrase a phone Bible like I don't know your online scripture so this in this particular passage in first Corinthians 14, the whole context is about confusion in the church as Expected this passage will perfectly line up with a passage in Timothy that we're gonna look at later.

That's the main main passage, but I want you to see this one first first Corinthians 14 33. For God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all churches of the Saints. Now don't you think it's?

Interesting that he says all Churches and this was you know written in what? Probably about 30 AD. No more like 45 AD something like that certainly prior to 55 AD. So the the young churches that were in the world at the time all of them had something in common and that was that in those churches God was not the author of confusion and He was the author of peace in the early church.

All right as time progressed. There became more and more confusion and less and less peace because the kind of confusion he's talking about is satanic. Intervention into the church through false teachers and so forth and that always removes peace.

Because the righteous people have to fight against it. So there's not going to be peace. You cannot have peace with a false Teacher you just can't. I don't they're always nice. I mean often often they're nice.

But you can't have peace in a church if you're gonna allow them in there. So this is all about peace in the church. Let your women first thing he mentions to have peace in the church. I find this interesting.

Let your women keep silence in the churches. For it is not permitted unto them to speak. But they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law so they're bringing The Apostle Paul is bringing this from the Old Testament Hebrew way of The woman being in the correct position of authority in the church.

But never crossing the line and saying that part is true in the church age as well. So here's something that brings from the Old Testament comes right into the church age and it doesn't change. Paul says under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit now.

We're gonna we're gonna go back and talk about what this phrase keep silence means in a minute because in the English it sounds Like something that it doesn't mean it's not important what the Bible says.

What's important is what it means and we'll look at that in a moment. But let's keep going here and read a little bit more of it. They are commanded to be under obedience also as also says the Old Testament system.

And if they will learn anything. Let them ask their husbands at home. Isn't that interesting? Do you know why it's not a great idea for? Women to come into the pastor's study and ask him a whole lot of spiritual questions.

Can anyone think of why that might not be a good idea? Let's say I'm 35. And learn what I know now about life. I'm 35 years old and handsome. Let's say I'm Dave Huber. Although he's not 35. Why would it not be a great idea for?

The women to come in his study every day and ask for spiritual counseling. Okay, I don't think we need to go any further with that. So the scripture says let them ask their own husbands. Now that presents a problem.

What if the husband is not in? The word what if he's not doctrinally sound what can she do then? It's a problem in it. So guess what women do they say? Well, if the man won't step up we will so either the women will start teaching him doctrine.

Or they will go into the pastor's study and ask spiritual questions all the time now. We we just don't have that in this church. For one thing we teach from the pulpit. We teach the Bible from the pulpit.

So you don't have to come to the study because we don't just tell little stories and sermonettes and things. We go deep into the Bible. You're learning the Bible and then you got your own Bible study time with your husbands at home.

And we have women that can teach in this church. So it's kind of working correctly here. But you see I mean Paul mentions it for a reason. It doesn't mean it's it to us when we read that ladies when you agree.

It sounds a little snooty. Like if your pastor were to get up you raise your hand you ask the question I said look why don't you go home and ask Ron? Okay, just you don't need to bring that up next would that would be a little snooty wouldn't it?

And that's how it reads. But of course Paul's not saying to do that. He's not saying to be unkind and do that sort of thing in the church all he's trying to say is you will solve a lot of problems if the men will grow and The wives will grow with them together in the home.

With the great teachers that God may or may not put in your church and the more you have good teachers the better. So that's what he's talking about. So you have to put it you got to put it in proper kind.

It sounds very strong to say number one. She's got to remain silent if she wants to know anything. She just needs to go home and ask her husband in. The context of this it's not that it's not that harsh.

So we're gonna try to get to the actual meaning of it as we go here. So but this is how the scripture reads and I really think. The bluntness and the harshness of this is needed in the modern church in America today.

This should be read in churches all over America today because they're so far removed from this that to hear the blunt language they go all that can't be in the Bible or That can't mean that or whatever but it's there so we ought to be looking at it in the modern church.

This is a major major problem in America today. All right, so If they will learn anything let them ask their husbands at home for it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church. Wow. Wow. Okay, so I'll tell you one thing that we've done in the life of this church and it has worked beautifully and the men and The women have liked it is when we were larger from time to time.

I mean, we've had ebbs and flows since 1980 when this church was founded but You know we've had times when we had it we were big enough to have a few tears in the church and some Troublemakers and different things and then God gets rid of them and you know, it just goes around but what we've always done when we had a major decision in the church, we would have what we called a men's meeting and I would always call it a short men's meeting.

The tall men were not invited. And they never were short though they lasted longer than we thought but we would meet somewhere in the building with just the men and I would encourage them to you know to be honest debate.

You don't have to agree with everybody. Let's get all of the all of the ideas out on the floor. And we and I don't remember a time when we ever had to fight it out. But if we did it would have been fine and we would we would come to a consensus in that room.

We wouldn't leave till we did and when we did the last thing I would say, okay now everyone go home and discuss these matters with your wives. Tell them what we decided as a group of men and pray with them and then we'll have a business meeting next week so when we would have the business meeting a hundred percent vote to do it because We didn't do it in a scenario where where emotions would get up and the women are sitting right there.

I've gone to churches where they just do it like most churches do just have a business meeting and two things I would see one is I Would see two deacons stand up and want to fist fight. I'm thinking first Baptist, Mahalia.

They want to fist fight and the wives would grab their coattails and sit them down and say no. And stop it. That was good, but I've seen other cases where the women would get very emotional and interject a spirit of Division into the church into the room and made it very difficult for the men to not get emotional too because that's their wives.

Talking and stirring things up. It just didn't work, right? Why. Because this scripture says don't do it that way. It definitely says that and it's certainly talking about business meetings. It's not so much talking about in Sunday school that it's inappropriate for a woman.

To raise her hand and have the teacher call on her. It's talking about in matters of ruling the church Should have a men's meeting. That's just scripture. That's more what this means. Than what it sounds like it means now here it is not speaking of church as in a building as We think of the word in English.

It's speaking of the fact that To God it is a shame for a woman to speak in the Ecclesia and that means in the community of the called ones and. So it's it's talking about when we it doesn't have to do with necessarily any particular church building.

But it's talking about when we meet together as a group like forsake not the assembly of ourselves together. So when we meet together as a group. So it's not talking about in your home when you have a home Bible study.

I think if you had a Bible study here in that room, but it's more as a home Bible study. It's still more of a home Bible study than say at 11 o 'clock on Sunday morning when we're gathering to pray together to hear the word preached and so forth so and we have scriptural evidence to Expand this a little bit.

We'll look at some of that. But anytime you have the official meeting of the church together to hear preaching to pray to fellowship. That's what the this passage is talking about in any gathering anywhere where Christians meet for fellowship bread breaking.

To pray to preach to teach etc. This is contrasted with at home. Where she is to ask her husband if she wishes to learn doctrine and it's also Contrasted with at home where the woman actually can teach doctrinal things to men which I'll show you that in a minute.

With her husband as long as she's together with her husband we have an example of that and we'll look at that in a minute. So to me the word that catches my attention most is where it says it is a shame.

Where it says it is a shame for the woman to speak in church now we're gonna get to what the word speak means here in a minute, but First of all, whatever this thing is that she's not allowed to do when she does it.

It is a shame and that means a shame to man and to God. Now the word shame is a he's a he's gross. Which means shameful, but it also means base. Benal are filthy. That's kind of the Hebrew mindset something that's filthy and unclean.

That's what that word means. So now see that goes back to what I mentioned earlier in the Hebrew mindset of a woman out of the right position. Of authority and anything to do with God's work. It is filthy not only to man but to God.

Base in English means having are showing a lack of decency. Contemptible mean-spirited and selfish it means all those things now. From God's viewpoint. It is shameful filthy indecent and selfish for a woman to speak in the assembly the official assembly of Christian people and now let's look at what the word speak means and This will help you ladies.

It'll help you men to not to be too domineering over your wives and telling her God says for you just not to speak. So the gentleman won't like this definition, but the ladies will love this because it comes from the it's the Greek word Laleo.

And it can mean two other words, but normally it's translated in the English Bible universally into the word to preach. So it's really saying she's not allowed to preach in The assembly not speak. It doesn't mean literally speak.

It means she can't preach you see the difference. She's not supposed to stand up in front of the room and teach doctrine. Especially if there are any meant grown men in the room and We know that it means that now even if we take it at that very limited definition.

This is being broken all across America right now today in our churches and it shouldn't be because. Even if you take it at this most limited view of what this means It is a lack of decency. It's contemptible mean-spirited and selfish.

For women to do this, I don't care if the men say it's okay. Does it really is it is it? Okay? Ladies, if a man tells you to do something that God said don't do is it okay for you then to do it? Of course not.

Is it okay for any of us if the government tells us to do something that God says we are not to do or if it? Tells us not to do something. He commanded us to do is that okay? No, we're supposed to disobey that authority in that case.

So all across America where women are asked by the elders of the church and in the people whatever the case is to Bring a message they should refuse to do it and they should quote this scripture and say no the Lord won't let me do it.

I appreciate it, but no right. So this indicates that a woman teaching or preaching to men is out of place. In the same sense that other things we often talk about are unnatural and out of place and seen as filthy or base to God and Simply because it is rebellion against his clear revealed will.

1 Timothy 2 and the Limits on Teaching and Authority in the Church

All right. Now let's go to the main passage 1st Timothy chapter 3 verse 14. Take a look at this. Of course, it will Fit perfectly with the passage in Corinthians because God wrote the whole Bible. It doesn't contradict First Timothy 3 14 these things right?

I into thee hoping to come into thee shortly. But if I tarry long that thou mayest know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God. So first Timothy is often called a pastoral book or letter.

Because it tells the church how the church ought to operate. So now think of that context as we read what we're about to read. I mean, this is God Telling the church how it ought to function so many people miss.

Mistakenly think that the book of Acts is the place you should go to learn how the New Testament Church should operate and there are Parts of Acts that are brilliant on that because it tells us how the early church operated.

There's other parts that will mislead because it's a transitional book, but Timothy is not a transitional book. It is the book Where God teaches how churches are supposed to run. So now if we drop down to first Timothy chapter 2 or go back to chapter 2 and look at verse 10 it says.

But which becometh women professing godliness with good works. Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. So the women ought to be in subject to their husbands and to the male elders and teachers of the church when you're in the official assembly is what it's talking about and So when you come together and you have church the women should learn in silence with all subjection now I'm gonna We're gonna look at that word silence in a minute too because once again, it doesn't mean like it sounds in English.

Doesn't mean like you you can't Utter any words. It's not what it means and I'll show you that in a minute, but it's important to see what the scripture is talking about here and So when it says that and she's to be in subjection to her husband and to the male teachers in the church then it says this look at verse 12 this versus 12 through 14 are Are violated every day in America right now now the founder of this church the pastor who founded this church, he and I had a debate over this passage and I won the debate and I was hadn't been saved nearly as long as he had but I was written the word more than he was I think but he asked me to preach.

I had been called to preach and He was going to be gone and he said I want you to preach so it's going to be my first sermon that I ever preached and It was in this church, but the church was Located in Mahalia at that time and then later it was expanded that Mahalia and Corsicana.

That's how we ended up here but so I was all excited and As usual I was not going to be caught without ammunition. So I had lots of notes and And I was ready to go. I was all excited now. He tried to tell me what topic to preach on but I said, you know I think I'll if you don't mind I'll pray about that and I'll preach what the Lord Lays on my heart and he said well, okay, but he said I don't want you to go more than 25 minutes or whatever.

He said it might have been 20. It might have been 30, but he put a time limit on it. Now his wife was not going with him on the trip. She was her name was Sandy and she was staying there and I didn't know at the time.

But he had caused her to be watching me and report back to him if I obeyed him, right? So I get up. I'm all excited. I start preaching my very first sermon. I've been teaching the Bible for years, but I never had preached a sermon behind a pulpit and boy I got into that sermon and I didn't have a clue what time of day it was and And all of a sudden I see this this woman kind of a heavyset woman.

Walk across the back got right in the middle of the aisle at the back and she squats down and she goes. Just like that. I'm not exaggerating just like that. So I added 10 minutes to the sermon at least and Then it was over and I forgot about it.

Well two weeks later. He calls me into the Office and wants to his practice was to wait two weeks and he'd call me in the office and try to straighten me out so when he did I Asked him to turn his Bible to these verses.