The Conflict in Israel (Part 5)

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My name is Chris Giesler and joining me are Michael Dearum David Casson and today we are wrapping up our discussion of Israel. We've had several episodes. And so today we'll kind of summarize some things and get to kind of more of a specific point.

The People of God in Christ

David. Did you want to kick us off? Sure. Yeah.

We've done several episodes on this because it's not just a timely Topic, I mean it is certainly in the news these days but it's one of those issues that every couple of years something pops up into that corner of the world and We truly feel that the discussions that we've had have been based on the timeless Truths that are in the Scriptures and Using the New Testament to interpret the old we want Individual Christians to know how to react and know how to address Real life issues occur across the world as we have said before We don't want our theology to change with the newspaper.

We want it to be based in the eternal Word of God. So a couple of questions that Christians usually ask when it comes to conflict in the Middle East especially as it comes to that piece of ground between the Sinai Peninsula up to Lebanon and Borders the Jordan, you know, what we know is the modern state of Israel and the people Israel the Jews the history of the United States really in the last hundred hundred fifty years has been Really involved with the creation and the support for the modern state of Israel and what do Christians based upon?

What the Bible says to us how should we address those issues and there's a couple of questions that keep popping up. I've had discussions, you know offline with my own family members and Just friends and it's a couple of these questions.

Keep keep coming up. So are the Jews The chosen people of God you hear that a lot and say we should support the modern state of Israel because Aren't the Jews the chosen people of God? Isn't that what we all have always always taught and I think over the last couple of episodes We've addressed that issue and I throw it to you guys to summarize what we have said who are The chosen people of God.

I think that's the critical question of the New Testament.

I think in the way that Jesus tells his parables He's often talking about how are his hearers to understand who the true people of God are in the kingdom that he brings and Very often. It's the unexpected group and there are those who consider themselves to be the true people of God and Jesus would point out their unfaithfulness to the Covenant and the judgment of God Impending upon them and then he talked about the people of God being coming from the east and the west.

And sitting down with Abraham at the table and there's that's kind of a surprise. Oh look, also the Gentiles are in too and Peter in 1st Peter chapter 2 Speaking about all those who are in Christ. Saying you are a chosen generation a royal priesthood a holy nation his own special people.

That's Jews and Gentiles. That's not just ethnic Jews, but it's all those who are born again in Christ. So I think that clearly when we get to the New Testament the shadows of who are the people of God are answered in the substance of Christ.

All Who were in Christ are God's people Jew or Gentile, but that distinction does not matter. The distinction is whether or not we're in Christ.

Yeah, you have both positive and negative statements in the New Testament about who the people of God are and in the old covenant Israel broke that Covenant and there's strong language in the Old Testament and in the New Testament about what Israel is.

Descriptions of being the harlot. He's talking to the Pharisees and he says you're you're of your father the devil. It's in one place anyone that rejects Jesus as God Is Antichrist and there's several statements like that and then there's the positive statements those that put them their faith in Jesus Christ.

Are God's children were adopted through our unity with him? So you've got those and in the New Covenant all those negative descriptions about Israel in the New Covenant. It's there's now no Jew or Greek.

You're all one in Christ. The people are of God are the people that submit and bow to Jesus Christ and are saved.

So your response to the person who says so what you're saying is the church has replaced Israel.

What is your response to that? Well, I think that we can often find places in the New Testament where that which was said about Israel is being said about the church and. Those are surprising passages, but often you find them in sermons preached by the Jewish Apostles.

Right the disciples of Jesus. They preach it in the book of Acts and you see the description sometimes used in some of Paul's letters however more often than that we find the language of the New Testament.

Whatever the New Testament says about Jesus Christ the Old Testament said about Israel or vice versa and so it's not exactly That the church has replaced Israel even though we find that language sometimes when you look at that language.

The church's position being described in terms that Israel used to be described in it's only because of the relationship with Jesus Christ. He's always just very strong in the context. The focus is all on him everything hinges on him and who can argue with Jesus Christ being the the better son the faithful Servant the fulfillment of all of God's plans for this people.

He's the king. He's the son of David. I mean all of the faithful Israelites that we read about in the New Testament. The you know, all the very best examples from Zacharias to Simeon to I mean Saul of Tarsus even you know.

All of these most faithful Israelites. What did they do but hang every single last hope they had as an Israelite on the one Savior Jesus Christ, right?

And this is one of Paul's big arguments in Romans because the objection would be well has he failed Israel. Has God failed to save Israel. And Paul is by no means he has not failed. I'm I'm a Jew and so in order for God's Faithfulness is he is faithful to his people and in the New Testament.

Those are the people of faith. And so he has not failed Israel and the ethnic Jews if they repent and believe are Included in that. They're not excluded in that. And I think there's a lot of talk about Anti-semitism that comes up when talking about this.

Who is the people of God. And if you start Talking the way the Bible talks and saying some of the things that the prophets the Apostles or God says about Israel. Well, then you just hate you just hate Israel and I would say no.

We love the Jews and because of that we want them to repent and believe. We we want them to actually be the people of God and the only way to do that is through Jesus Christ. Because he is rather than replacing Israel.

He is the fulfillment of Israel. If you want to be a part of Israel, you have to be in Christ.

I think that's that right there what you just said is the is the crux of the matter that the church hasn't replaced Israel. Christ is the fulfillment of Israel and everyone who is in Christ is a part of an Expanded Israel.

Israel is defined by who is in Christ so I think you had said, you know, the people of God are those people who are of faith. You could say it. I said it another way is The true Jew or the one who is circumcised in heart you can be that in Romans 2 and then as a promises to Israel failed.

No. Because Christ has come. That's why it hasn't failed. Okay, so we know that the that the people of God are those who are in Christ. So would you say that the people of God those who are in Christ are God's chosen people?

Yes. Yeah, so if the people who are in Christ whether they be Jew or Gentile and both, you know Thank God both. There's no there's no racial division there. Those are the people of God. Then what right does ethnic?

The State, Borders, and Just War

Israel old Israel have to that land. I think it's difficult to talk about it.

Necessarily in those terms, I think that we have to get a little bit more broad more fundamental about Who lives in the modern state of Israel a lot of ethnic Jews? Live there. A lot of people who identify as Jews live there and also there are non Jews who live there and there are a whole lot of nation states or militia movements sometimes very associated with Various groups out of Islam who have stated that is their intention to wipe Israel off the face of the map to just utterly destroy the people who live there and I think as Christians we hear that and we say well, that's not right.

You know that that shouldn't happen. So what right do the people have who live there to continue living there? And this is again a very strong protest of those who are opposed to the modern state of Israel.

You don't have a right to be there. Other people were there before you got there. It was taken away from them and given to you now. It's interesting. Isn't it that we have heard similar protests from many other groups?

All over the place right even in our own nation. There is a lot of controversy about lands that were once owned and cared for by Native American tribes and so there is something of a protest movement of hey, you know.

It's not fair for you know, you to live. I've said I've lived here for three generations and my grandfather gave me this farm and somebody's saying you're on ancient Tribal lands and you deserve to lose everything but not a whole lot of consideration goes into.

Who did those Native Americans take that land from because they took it away from other tribes? Who took it away from others and well, of course, we've got to go all the way back to the beginning. Don't we?

God gave this earth to those made in his image. He said be fruitful multiply fill the earth and subdue it. God gave the land to Those he made in his image and those in his image fell into sin and all kinds of disaster including conflict and death and deceit and war came out of that and The face of the earth has been covered by that but there's hope.

Because there is one who is in the image of the invisible God and his name is Jesus Christ and all has been given to him. He inherits everything. So he's the one in charge. So, how do we understand? Let's pick a Jewish family living in the state of Israel.

Let's call them a family of four and they raise their children and when their children son and daughter get to a certain age. They go serve in the military for two years. Mandatory military service in Israel and they're in the armed forces and there's an attack.

You know, let's say Hamas has geared up all of a sudden. They're flush with cash. They've got all kinds of money. You know, where'd all that money come from, but they've got all these weapons. Where'd all those weapons come from and now they're attacking on the borders of the state of Israel and they're killing citizens of that country.

Now this family mom and dad are thinking about their son and daughter out there in the conflict on the front lines. Fighting. Okay, and then how are they understanding it? They're wanting to defend their home defend their homeland they have people who are basically Conducting a criminal act upon the state of Israel trying to kill its citizens trying to destroy their security their borders.

And they're trying to defend their country. How do we think of it as Christians? Well, obviously we should not be muddying the waters through poor interpretation and say that well any Ethnic Jew anywhere has a right to that piece of land out there in the Middle East.

Thus they can just kill whoever gets in their way. That's not a careful reading of the of the scriptures, but we do need a careful reading of the scriptures. I don't think it goes back to God telling Noah and Genesis chapter 9 After he'd flooded the whole earth because of rampant violence he tells Noah man is made in my image and nobody gets to kill man unless I Say so and when people kill people when man sheds man's blood by man his blood shall be shed and the language in the text speaks of Brothers and we see this later on in the life of Israel.

The example is given about the axe. Mm-hmm, right you're out chopping down a tree your axe head comes off flies and sinks into the neck of the guy next to you. He's dead. Well, you just shed man's blood you're guilty of manslaughter that would be called manslaughter on our books today.

Well back then what was supposed to happen by man your blood must be shed. Well, who's in charge of doing that who's authorized to do that? Kinsmen Redeemer kinsmen Redeemer. He's got a he's got to make this injustice just he's coming before your blood.

Hey was an accident. Well, then you better run to the city of refuge.

Okay, just and of course, but that city of refuge wasn't you know, it wasn't for and just cold-blooded murder exactly. Yeah, you're dealing with you know. What we called negligent homicide and that kinsmen Redeemer that was listed in the case law was listed in the law so you have a legitimate use of the State saying this is how we're going to resolve this issue.

And there are also laws on the books for those who just you know, laid in wait and shed innocent blood. Yes, and so.

That's just an example of nobody dies By somebody else's hand without there being some need for justice to be executed and that is the job of the state.

Right.

We have three forms three basic forms of human society the family the church in the state and they all have their own areas and they all kind of mingle a bit on the on the borders, but the state's job is to punish evildoers and In the context when we first discover this in the scriptures It's the brethren who defend the fallen brother.

I would a reversal from what Cain did to his brother, right? But in this sense when we think of about a nation a nation being a rather large and extended family of many many clans and tribes that have Something in common a lot of things in common.

In fact, then let's say there are some sort of criminal activity at writ large. So you have not one burglar coming in and who gets confronted by someone and then and then murder somebody Breaking and entering with murder.

Okay, not not a single but a thousand a Thousand of them at the same time comes into the border of a nation and begins to do that. Well blood has been shed now What must happen God says the the state is it as a minister a deacon of the Lord to?

Execute righteousness and justice By wielding the sword against evildoers. And so what happens is there are fallen brethren in your nation the sanctity of your borders have been Breached and now all the brothers of those who have been murdered and killed must rise up and they must go Shed the blood of those who shed the blood of their brothers, right?

That's just I'm trying to be as basic as we can using some biblical Metaphors about what's supposed to happen. So the state of Israel is there. It's a very interesting and messy history how they got there.

It's not as if they are a Wonderfully righteous perfect Holy Nation. Tel Aviv is the gay capital of the Middle East Right Israel is filled with sexual immorality they promote godlessness and they they do not love Jesus Christ Right.

This is this is a pagan godless sexually immoral nation celebrating all manner of corrupt things Right. However, however If it's a whole bunch of people all of a sudden trying to kill a bunch of their own people.

What are they supposed to do. They're supposed to rise up band together and defend their borders and using the appropriate sword from the state. Punish those who are engaging in violence. Yeah, so even if Israel is not the or the the Jews aren't necessarily chosen people of God, even if they're engaging in other Immoral behaviors and of course, all you have to do is look at our own our own window.

You know as we're certainly not guiltless and you know in in this, you know, that's not not saying that but you have a group of people that have Repeatedly invaded these borders slaughtered innocents engaged in horrible violence and from what you're saying based upon Genesis and all the way up through the Mosaic Law and then just just what our true Western and biblical standards of justice it would be appropriate for the government of the modern state of Israel to defend itself.

Yes, so you think you combine Genesis 9 with Romans 13 and kind of put those together and then you think of Jesus saying render Unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and Paul says for this reason we pay taxes.

Okay, the state has been ordained by God as that servant who should punish the evildoers you think about in the days of Jesus Christ. You see the state being used however to do evil things such as crucifying our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross.

Who was not an evildoer and yet the sword of the state was was used for? Great evil and wrong. It was being manipulated. There was kind of a political extortion going on and yet Jesus was hung on the cross between two.

Who.

Criminals criminals. Yeah thieves is a light term for terrorists. These guys were basically terrorists that he was crucified between you know. There were guys running around during Jesus time called the Sakari and they had they had long Knives and they like to walk up next to a Roman and just stab him in the middle of a crowd and then walk off And leave him for dead and these were passionate zealous Jewish men.

Now was it right or wrong for the Romans to hunt those criminals down and then crucify them. It's just it was absolutely right. It's a very interesting thing to think about but there are two guys dying on Crosses on either side of Jesus who deserved to be there who deserved to be there and the Rome was doing their job.

But they were the oppressors of the Jews and they were doing their job. These were evildoers and they were crucifying them. That was their job and they were doing as a public example probably a lot better ways to do it than crucifying.

You know the mode and all that you can get all those hair splitting debates, which are profitable.

Yeah, I'm saying crucifixion is a you know, cruel and unusual beheading probably would have been better. But that's that. That's not the issues that they they deserved. Capital punishment for a capital crime.

Yes, so the fact that they were Jewish was is irrelevant. They committed murder in Israel against a foreign invader. But it was still murder against a legitimate state, right?

So, I mean that's I mean, why are we talking them about, you know being murderers or whatever? But we're connecting the dots because the guy who was supposed to be hanging on the cross where Jesus was was a guy named Barabbas.

Right, they let go who they let go and as we're told in the scriptures They chose a murderer over Christ and I think there's there's something else to be said now. I think very often as believers we hear about some sort of armed conflict going on in our world and we will immediately sometimes we will identify good guy bad guy and.

And.

Pick yeah, the good guy. Envision that person or that country, you know white hat white horse, you know. We're gonna be on their team on this one. Pick a side, you know. I support the current thing and whether that's Ukraine or Israel or or so on and I think that we need to be careful in how we parse this if you see that there's a big army or a whole bunch of Insurgents or you know the aggressor, you know advancing upon families houses hospitals Communities and so on and causing havoc and they're the ones who who are attacking.

You could say that's not right. What you're doing? Okay, that's it's a pretty simple way of explaining it. Well, they were incited to do it or this was the only option they had left or you know. We could talk about all of that, but when you see a group of armed people.

Advancing and.

Then the the people who are trying to defend themselves shoot back. Christians would say well, that's what you're supposed to do. Right, that's what the scriptures talk about in terms of and give us examples of.

Hey, this is a righteous defense of one's land one's property ones and that the that's the proper thing to do state sanctioned and States should say to their citizens. If you have armed people advancing upon you you should defend yourself, right?

This is a righteous thing to do nonetheless. That doesn't mean that those who are being attacked are wonderful awesome Perfect good people that we should fly their flag and sing their praises simply because they're getting attacked.

They may be awful evil people.

Right. Yeah, and we can't know that from from here. No even over there. It would be hard to tell. Yeah, who's who it's like you say, you know.

Well, you know. They've been doing X Y Z for 20 years and doing all these Underhanded things that are inciting these people and so on and so forth and I say yes. All that is wicked and cruel and bad and evil, but also they have a right to defend their home.

Somebody comes marching on them. I'm not saying they're wonderful people. I'm just saying if you attack somebody get ready to get shot at so there's an interesting thing that happens in Daniel chapter 11 as Daniel is laying out how things are going to run in the next couple hundred years and he is telling the story prophetically about great battles that are going to occur during the conflicts between the Seleucids and the Ptolemies the the remnants the leftovers from the Greek Empire under Alexander the Great and I'm just gonna read an excerpt from Daniel 11 and even though you don't know the names.

You can just kind of envision it in your head and it says This verse 25 and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army. But he shall not stand for they shall devise plans against him.

Yes, those who eat of the portion of his delicacies shall destroy him. His army shall be swept away and many shall fall down slain. So there's a king of the south and there's a king of the north and apparently the king of the south just gets assassinated.

Right, but now what about the king of the north and the king of the south? What happens now in this turnover of power verse 27 both these Kings hearts shall be bent on evil, right? It's not good guy versus bad guy.

It's evil guy versus evil guy and they shall speak lies at the same table. They sit down for a peace accords and they sit there an evil king and evil king sit there and they lie to each other. The whole time.

That sounds like politics, doesn't it? But it shall not prosper for the end will still be at the appointed time. This evil king and the other evil king are both arrogant. They say a bunch of lies to one another but all of their plans go awry.

Because God has appointed the time when these things come to pass because God is sovereign. So I thought that was just kind of an interesting.

Insight into how these things actually come about. Yeah, well that so we've got two Warring groups that are pagan. They're not for Christ and they're against at some level against each other. They're fighting that's why I think there's a lot of discussion about well, let's track this but how did this start and then if we can go back to where it started then we can try to Sort it out.

And so I was thinking about this. We had talked before. Well, how did it start and so in Acts 17? This is verse 26 and he has made from one blood Every nation of men to dwell on the face of the earth and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwelling.

This is God's role says that God appoints these times and the dwellings and the boundaries well at one point we had America and Britain and whoever else's let's draw up some boundaries and let's put these people here at this time to dwell in this Place.

Okay. So I think here we like you said we see some hubris. We think we're gonna define you guys stop fighting. This is what we've decided. We're gonna go do this. So then well if we could just go back and fix that but that's not how it works.

You can't just we're gonna fix it the same way that we started it. You're not gonna get out of it. But I'd like to continue that because after it says that he's got these appointed times and appointed places.

It says he has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on the face of the earth and has determined their Pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings so that they should seek the Lord in their hope that they might grope For him and find him though.

He is not far from each one of us. That is the solution. It's not some governmental. Let's dump money on it. Let's pick a side and fund that side. It's God establishes the boundaries. He's sovereign over it.

You have these very different levels of principles if if there's an invading army the other people they're gonna defend themselves. Who knows what's gonna happen? We it's hard for us to see over here because we hit maybe have a media that's broken and doesn't report correctly who knows but the reason why God establishes the boundaries is so that they would grope for the Lord and He is not far from us and that would be the answer that we would put forward as Christians is they need the gospel.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, both both groups do mostly and you can't even say both groups. You would say the three groups the four groups. Five groups who are all kind of warring with each other and it's it's not a gospel.

That is simply once you have Jesus, you'll be so happy that you'll stop fighting. That's not what we're talking about. It's a full-fledged gospel and yeah, it's life death resurrection and his return you know when we think when I am as old as my dad is right now and We'll be right around the hundred-year anniversary of the modern state of Israel.

You know how many books are gonna be selling right then? Oh my goodness. There's gonna be a smorgasbord of books being written about the end of the world because it'll be a hundred years. And we were wrong.

It wasn't 40 years a generation. It was a hundred years generation and this is the end. Right. It's still gonna be going on then lots of money's gonna be made off of Israel being around for a hundred years but There's still gonna be conflict and people are you're still gonna be angry and there's still gonna be mad and it's gonna be a bitterness.

Entrenched for two and a half generations and more. And what keeps on happening? Between Hamas and Israel or Palestinians and Israelis or between indigenous tribes and the colonists or any of those things.

What keeps on happening is that that people get into conflict and.

And.

Stir up all manner of fighting and they bring up all of these awful things that were done.

Awful things that were done in the past, you know, just. Generational stuff. We're talking generational not just heritial curses, but blood feuds. I mean historic generational blood feuds. Things that did go back not just to your granddaddy's in a but his and beyond.

Exactly, and so the conflicts of today so many of them are Trying to Kill the people who live today for the crimes and the failures of people who lived a long time ago and People are screaming out. The whole thing is unjust.

The whole system is unjust the whole system is corrupt and the ones who have made it that way are not here so all we can do is tear down their statues and Attack people who look like them. Who's the only one who can solve this?

Well, we can't raise the dead and judge them but there is someone who can and his name is Jesus Christ and he is gonna raise the dead and He is gonna settle all those accounts, which is why Romans says do not take your own vengeance.

Leave room for wrath. Vengeance is mine. I will repay Sayeth the Lord and I think that's a very important piece to this complex puzzle in the Middle East.

That's not just a Christian saying the quote is from the Mosaic Law. Yes, it is. It has always been that way. There's always been the standard you mentioned Genesis. The state is the one that executes Justice.

You don't take your own Revenge otherwise you end up with these Generational blood feuds. What you were describing in the current land will be now know as the modern state of Israel has been happening in Afghanistan.

You reference what has happened here in North America. You can see the same things between the the Houthis and the Tutsis in Africa and in South America. Is you see it everywhere? These generational conflicts that Can only be solved in the light of Christ and who he is.

No Ethnic Right to the Land, Only Christ's Ownership

So when we look at Israel and The conflict is happening in Israel. You're drawing an equivalence between that and all these other conflicts. You're saying this this isn't this isn't special. This isn't a good versus evil or these these surrounding pagan nations attacking the people of God.

You're saying that these are two people groups that have been fighting for a long time and they're gonna keep fighting until they are saved both sides and mass and have the common body of Christ that is having Christ in.

Common. Yes. I mean the gospel of democracy. Hasn't solved it. The gospel of the American dollar. Hasn't solved it. The gospel of nuclear deterrence. Hasn't solved it, right? None of these so-called solutions.

Work, so you guys are not Not Zionist. Then you don't believe that ethnic Jews have a greater right to this land than really any anybody else.

No, I don't think that. I don't think that's correct to.

To read it that way. So who owns that land. Jesus Christ does. And he owns Afghanistan and Africa and North America and every other place. So then you get Psalm 2.

Any nation that does not kiss the Sun and repent is dashed to pieces. Or if you bless the Sun you'll be blessed. Mm-hmm.

I think it would be a really cool story for a Jew living in in the land to sit under his fig tree and Have his heart full of joy in Jesus of Nazareth as the Christ the Son of the Living God. Amen, I think that's a pretty cool story.

Especially if he's sitting somewhere where he can have a nice view of all those historical Mountains and and roads and terrain that Jesus himself saw. I mean that that's a powerful thing to reflect on.

Reminds us of the faithfulness of God, but we were also Not to be enamored with shadows. When the substance has come right, the moon is pretty impressive two o 'clock in the morning, but the Sun has risen and It's about 1145 in the morning and the moon's still up there.

But I'm not in I'm raptured with the moon anymore. That warm glow is hasn't has my full attention.

So the discussion or any kind of political discussion about the Treaty of Balfour or The Palestinians who were in the land before in 1947 or what borders were established by which particular war whether it be 67 73 or 2023 those are all ultimately irrelevant.

Because by. But what what we have said here the chosen people of God are those who are in Christ and the one who has the right to the land is Is the King Jesus who is the fulfillment of Israel? So just as Roman says that Abraham and is the heir of the world.

You know Jesus as his heir.

The promise was to him and his seed which is Jesus. So he owns.

Everything and that includes that small piece of ground which were in shadow. Type form of Eden or return to Eden. It's God's for God's probably a promised land, but it was really owned by Jesus so as Christians we can say that God's chosen people are in Christ.

Jesus owns the land. So would we want to send taxpayer dollars to help a group of people defend their land? Would we want to do that based upon what we what we just said?

I would think in theory, it would be possible for a Christian to hold that perspective if the government that was receiving those taxes Was responsible in a Christian way. So this this goes into a more broader discussion.

Some of our money is going to fund not just Israel But the other side and so we in principle I could say they have the right to defend themselves Yes from foreign invaders, but the conflict seems to be Escalated because of the amount of money that's coming in from different places.

And if you don't have Confidence, you know that your government is doing the right thing. According to the Bible, I would think prayers for our own country and discussion on that issue would be needed.

So you wouldn't necessarily support Israel any more than you would support Mexico or Japan, but they were attacked. You would say well I would support Japan I would support Mexico, but I would support Israel because their innocent lives being lost.