Grudem or Berkhof?

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ. Based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

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Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry.

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Steve Cooley, welcome back. This is now year seven for No Compromise Radio and Tuesday Guide.

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I'm feeling hot, hot, hot. Now you don't really like your food spicy though, do you?

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You're not a spicy guy. I love spicy food. You do? I did not know that. Oh, I absolutely love it. There's a little problem.

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Oh, it doesn't like you. Yeah, it doesn't love me back. So there's an issue. You know, we had a little breakup years ago, because I can eat something at lunch, and you know, at midnight, it'll still be going,

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Steve, that was pretty good at lunch. I don't know what it is, but it seems to me that I have the worst stomach issue problems, like the day before I'm going to fly.

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And then I know the Bible says, don't be anxious. I know the Bible talks about, you know, the sin of anxiety.

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I think I even have Friel's new book. Do you? Yeah. I'm stressed out. But then I think I got to sit on that airplane with this stomach problem.

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I don't like that. Hmm. Yeah. Flying doesn't, I mean,

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I don't want to sound like I'm just like, you know, an amazing flyer, but it doesn't really bother me.

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I mean, when it starts, you know, dropping out of the sky, like I've been on some flights where, you know, all of a sudden, a few hundred feet, boom, boom, yeah, that's a little upsetting.

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What about that new movie, Sully, or something? Oh, well, you know, Tom Hanks, you know, say no more.

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I mean, is there like - I thought that was about a Monsters, Inc. guy or something. No, that's - Sully. Yeah, no, but that's, no, it's about the guy who put his plane down.

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Just kidding. I was just thinking about local churches that do Monsters, Inc. for Easter. Which is the best.

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I mean, come on. What do you think, Easter? What do you think? I just think Monsters, Inc., it's the best holiday of the year, right?

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Reformation 2017, Germany, Switzerland, and a few other places. We are going to go

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May 20th through 30th, 2017, love to have you go if you can go to our -

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Be singing all the songs from Sound of Music. Seriously. Uh -huh. All the way. There with Mike Gendron and I.

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Uh -huh. Eisenach and Berlin and Leipzig. And Edelweiss.

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I wonder, you know, some people probably have asked, is it safe to go to Wurttemberg Castle now because of some of the migrants and stuff, refugees.

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Do you think you'd go? Oh, yeah. To Germany and Switzerland? Because, I mean, you know, your odds,

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I mean, what are the odds? You know? So, I like your chances. Okay. All right. So, if you'd like to go with us, go to the website.

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No compromises. Egypt. I would not go to Egypt. The only time I was scheduled to go to Egypt, I think a week,

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Steve, before we were scheduled to fly there, the Muslim Brotherhood took over and I thought, well, you know me,

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I could take some risks in life, but I wasn't about to take that one. Yeah. I never really thought that thing to Egypt was going to happen.

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Yeah. No. But I would like to see the pyramids. Sure. It'd be great. You know, it's like I say about LA.

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If you could just get everybody to leave, so if you can get all the Egyptians to, you know, go on vacation for, you know, a couple weeks, that'd be nice.

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Steve, I was reading Burkhoff's Systematic Theology. For some light reading?

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And I don't know, but I just come back to Burkhoff and I just, my heart is warmed when

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I read Burkhoff because most of it is very biblical and I can trust it.

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There's a couple of spots, you know, of course I disagree here or there, but if your listeners out there, why are they your listeners now?

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If our listeners out there - I've stolen several of your listeners. I want to talk about like Grudem versus Burkhoff.

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Why does everybody these days seem to promote Grudem and why have we forgotten about Burkhoff and kind of flesh that out a little bit?

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So what do you think? Maybe because Grudem's easier to understand. Or let's talk about -

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Because it's, you know, more modern English. Okay, good. So let's talk about the pros of Grudem and without the eternal feministic sonship kind of stuff debate, right?

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Eternal sonship debate and submission. Without that, because I think

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Ware and Grudem are less confessional than they probably should be.

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But without that, give me something positive. We've got number one that you just stated. It's updated and easier to read.

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And I think it is. It's simple to read, right? Easy to read. Well, here's something.

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It might sound like a negative, but I mean this in a positive way. I think it's hard to really kind of put

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Grudem in a straight jacket. I mean, to just slap a label on him and say he's this or he's that.

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And he does present, you know, on difficult issues. He does present different views too.

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So you know, I mean, he's not shy about landing on one, but he does present different views and I think he does it reasonably well.

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Okay, good. So it's easy to read. It's modern, represents different views, not every little tiny view, but the main ones.

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I like his devotional flair punctuated with the songs at the end of each chapter, a hymn that would be correspondent to the truth contained in the chapter.

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See, I always thought those were just page fillers. Oh, sorry. It probably maybe started off that way.

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I really like that because it drives home the point that what we study should help us praise the

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Lord. Well, and should be fleshed out in our hymnology, right? I like that. Our hymnody, I guess.

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Did Grudem write any songs that we know of? See a songwriter? I think he wrote

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Revolution, but I don't know.

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What kind of songs, by the way, do you listen to these days? What are some of the bands that you like? Are you... Well, I was just listening to the

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Children's Symphony. Why would you listen to that? Just for fun or what? Well, they have a couple of songs

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I really like, but also a friend of mine when, you know, some 25, 30 years ago gave me a copy of a

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CD and so I was just, I saw it and I was just plugged it in. I listen to,

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I don't know, just different stuff these days. Steve, it was during the summer and you were the first one that sent it to me.

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I saw it on social media after, but you sent it to me, the Modest Yahoo in the Kauai coffee shop listening to someone sing

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One Day. Yeah. I thought that, I mean, Modest Yahoo looked like he had some kind of funky girl's sandals on, but besides that, it made me, made my heart endeared to Modest Yahoo that he was kind of looking away sometimes, drinking the coffee, adding some song, you know, lyrics in and then afterwards, oh, you know, who wrote that song and, you know,

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I wrote it and everything. I thought that was good. So I've listened to a lot of Modest Yahoo this summer. Well, it's pretty cool because it wasn't, you know, it didn't come off as like the rock star, you know, kind of, so yeah,

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I thought it was pretty cool. So Grudem, he's got a good devotional at the end that is,

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I think he writes devotional throughout the chapter, devotionally throughout the chapter, then he's got a hymn at the end.

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What else does he have at the end? Doesn't he have a comparison of Lutheran treatments, Reformed treatments, Catholic treatments of systematic theology and where they're found in that particular?

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Well, I think that's right. It's been a while since I've actually read through it. I usually just kind of pick and choose, so.

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What don't you like about the Grudem systematic theology? Well, I think he occasionally comes to some errant conclusions, like, you know, most obviously about spiritual gifts.

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I forget all the, I mean, I should keep like a summary of the problems with the different systematic theologies, but I know he has several.

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Steve, ultimately, if I met someone and they have systematic theology by Grudem and they're reading it and learning,

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I like Grudem because he's a Calvinist, he has a high view of God. I think he's got a pastor's heart where he wants people to understand the

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Lord, increase in their knowledge of him and then devotion of him. I loved it that he wanted to take care of his wife and so moves to Phoenix, you know, a decade ago, even though what's in Phoenix.

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So I like all that. I just am not a big charismatic. And you read so much of something or someone who is so biblical and so thorough and devotional, then it seems like the stuff that isn't right is so much easier to believe.

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Pete Yeah, like, if he's right on so much, why wouldn't he be right on this too? Steve Right. Errant prophecies and spiritual gifts and the continuation of things that we don't see continuing.

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And so, if I meet someone and they're saying, I'm studying Grudem, I don't go, ah, you know, a loser. But if someone said to me, do you think this is the best or what would you recommend?

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I always recommend Berkhoff because Berkhoff, although older and although infant

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Baptist, Presbyterian, I identify with him a lot more and I think he's more confessional.

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I think he's more reformed. I think he's in the swath of reformed anthropology, ecclesiology et al.

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Is that right? Is that a right way to think about it? Pete Yeah, well, and I think to put it a little more bluntly,

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I think he's just more gospel -focused, you know, more, I mean, in the way we would think about it.

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In other words, just kind of straightforward sin, you know, Savior, redemption, resurrection, all these kind of things.

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I mean, just lays it all out. And so, yeah, I think it's much more systematic,

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I guess, a more systematic, systematic theology. And the fact that he is kind of in a single system, in some ways, that appeals to me more because I know where he's going, you know.

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And so, I don't have to kind of watch every semi -colon and go, what's that there for?

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Peter Okay, Steve, that was a good point. I want to flesh that out a little bit. That's insightful of you. Good job.

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Pete Hey, thanks. It happens once in a while. That's why you hire me. When I pick up a

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Berkhoff, Louis Berkhoff's systematic theology, I know what I'm getting.

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I already have in the back of my mind, okay, here's this reformer, and this is the time period when he wrote.

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He's influenced more people, it seems like, theologically. You know, first it was

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Charles Hodge, and then it was Berkhoff, and then what about Grudem?

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Well, Grudem's kind of this hodgepodge. Have we had five -point Calvinists who are continuationists in the last, you know, 2 ,000 years?

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Well, only until recently. That's a new phenomenon. So, I don't really know where to put him. Or even with the Trinitarian debates now that Ref 21 and Pruitt and Truman, those guys, what they're doing there, they're showing, okay, where and Grudem, they, okay, let's just say

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Grudem and Ware are right. They're just not as historically reformed. They're not coming from that same vein found in the valley.

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Trevor Burrus Yeah, it's almost like they're cutting their own groove, right? So … Peter Van Doren And they could be right, right?

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We can still learn and grow. But it's pretty hard for me to leave, let's say, the

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Westminster Confession or the Canons of Dort or these battles have already been fought and the truths have been proclaimed and not codified as something greater than scripture.

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But if you just put all the confessions together, it's – I have a hard time walking away from those.

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Is that true? Well, I think it, you know, biblically would get down to Ephesians 4 and how the

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Lord gave us these men throughout history to teach us and, you know, to just walk away from 2 ,000 years of Christian teaching would not be wise in my estimation.

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I opened up my Systematic Theology Burkhoff fairly randomly and I wanted to find a spot where I've done a lot of underlining.

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Trevor Burrus And that's a lot of underlining. Like when I just say this is a great page, you know, just for the time.

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Peter Van Doren Listeners, by the way, you can find the PDF of Burkhoff free in several places online.

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So, you can always get a copy for free. Trevor Burrus Nice. And if you like to carry it around with you, then you can print it out and – no,

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I'm just making that up. Okay. Peter Van Doren This is under the origin of sin or man in relationship to God.

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And here's what I really liked. He's talking about Adam and Eve and temptation and fall and Satan and the garden and it says, but whatever the significance of the temptation in that respect may be, it certainly does not suffice to explain how a holy being like Adam could fall in sin.

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It is impossible for us to say how temptation could find a point of contact in a holy person.

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And it is still more difficult to explain the origin of sin in the angelic world.

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Trevor Burrus Yeah, it's just incredible. I mean, to think about Lucifer, Satan, you know, whatever, being perfect and having no external force to corrupt him and, you know, corrupting himself and, you know, how did that work?

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We don't really know. You know, it's just however it came to be, he determined one day that he would, you know, be greater than God.

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So – Peter Van Doren Under the universality of sin, how do we know that sin is universal?

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I mean, he lists all the Bible things and talks about it. But at the very beginning, Steve, I like what Burkhoff does.

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Steve McLaughlin Pick up your newspaper. Peter Van Doren Yeah. The history of religions and of philosophy testify to it.

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And isn't that wise of Burkhoff, instead of saying, by the way, let's go to the jails and lunatic asylums and, you know, brothels to find the universality of sin.

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Where do we find it at its peak, and that is in religious systems? Isn't that good? Steve McLaughlin You know, it always surprises me that people say things like, you know, you can find the good in anybody or, you know,

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I believe that people are basically good, and I'm like, you do know history, right? You do – I mean, why do you think we have wars?

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Why do you think there was, you know, Hitler and six million Jews killed and all these other – and just go out throughout history.

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All history is filled with one person trying to subjugate somebody else.

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That's what history is about. That's how good mankind is. Trevor Burrus Steve, I was – this is off -subject, but it's so apropos.

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I've been listening to Jesse Johnson of Emanuel Bible Church Chapel in Virginia, close to D .C.

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And if you listeners have not listened to his Judges series, I would encourage you to do so. And remember the story about Jael and Sisera, and Sisera is on the run.

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His army is wiped out. There's a tent that happened to be providentially put there, and he runs in and she,

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Jael, says, go ahead and lay down. And here's some – you know, he asked for water, I'll give him some milk with curds or whatever.

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And she goes above and beyond and he lays his head down and she takes the stake, the tent peg, and drives it through his temple down into the ground.

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Remember that? Yes. You should see Steve's face. I'm just like, right as you're leading up to it,

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I'm going, this is just not good. Because it always brings a vivid image in my head.

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And even when, you know, I was kind of getting sick before you said that because I had the recent experience of having some sour milk, so.

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Curdles and all that. Anyway. It was not good. We see in Judges, Chapter 1, how wonderful life could be and, oh, would you like some land?

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Yes. Here are the springs. Take the northern springs, the southern springs. Go wherever you want, ladies, in Israel.

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Everything's wonderful and fine and all of a sudden one judge after another keeps getting worse and worse and worse.

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The people are getting worse and pretty soon you've got a woman as a judge because the men are not around.

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You've got a woman killing Sisera because where are the men? And Israel is doing what's right in their own eyes and God is judging them with the judgment of sin.

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Anyway, when I think of depravity now, this is my all -time new depravity set of verses.

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Deborah sang a song in Judges 5 with Barak, the son of Abinoam, after their victory.

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And it says, most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber, the Kenite, of tent -dwelling women most blessed.

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So this is a poem. It's a song. You could sing it. He asked for water and she gave him milk.

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She brought him curds in a noble's bowl. I mean, you're out there in the middle of nowhere with a noble's bowl in your tent.

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How does that work? Isn't this nice? She sent her hand to the tent peg and her right hand to the workman's mallet.

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She struck Sisera. She crushed his head. She shattered and pierced his temple.

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Between her feet he sank. He fell. He lay still. Between her feet he sank. He fell.

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Where he sank, there he fell. And then it says, dash, dead. Okay.

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Now, here is— Is that a Sunday morning worship song? Tim. It should be, right? Okay. Now, here is the depravity of depravity.

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Okay. Tim. Out of the window she peered. The mother of Sisera wailed through the lattice.

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Why is his chariot so long in coming? Why tarry the hoofbeats of his chariots?

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So Sisera had a mother. Where is he? You know what? He's been off on battle and he usually comes home by now.

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And of course, there's no Mora's Code. There are no texting. Where could he be? I'm waiting for my son to return victorious.

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That great general. Where could he be? Now, here it comes. His wisest princes—her wisest princes answer.

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Indeed, she answers herself. Have they not found and divided the spoil? A womb or two for every man.

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Oh, that's the mother, right? Yeah. I know where he is.

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I'm going to try to convince myself. He's gone for a really long time. He should be back by now. He certainly can't be dead.

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I know. He's taking all the plunder. And raping women. And there are so many women to rape.

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Every guy's got to rape at least two. But he'll be back soon.

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Yeah, that's the song of a mother. Spoil of dyed materials for Cicera.

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Spoil of dyed materials embroidered. Two pieces of dyed work embroidered for the neck as a spoil.

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Oh, he always brings me a gift, too. He brings me special necklaces and jewelry and all that stuff.

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Good old Cicera. I know. Isn't that amazing? That's the mother. Sad.

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Well, I mean, it's—I mean, not to make it all modern, but, you know, this child the other day with explosives strapped to him that they sent in to, you know, blow himself up in Turkey.

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You just go, what kind of people do that? You know? And well, probably the same kind of people that sit around thinking, oh, he's probably just got a few more rapes before he gets home to me.

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Anyway, today on No Compromise Radio, we're at the high level talking about Grudem versus we dive down into these things, but I think it's quite entertaining.

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Well, and that is really, I mean, when you just think about what sort of mother would be thinking, oh, you know what's probably holding him up?

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He's just got a few more women to rape or a few more people to kill, a few more kids to slaughter.

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I mean, who thinks like that? Steve, when we as theologians, or we'd like to think we're theologians, talk about total depravity.

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We don't mean people are as bad as they could be. We think that's called utter depravity. But total, whole,

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Cicera's mother, her will, her mind, her emotions, her intellect, she was completely depraved.

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That is depravity right there. Steve McLaughlin Otherwise, there's no other way she could think like that. I mean, she wouldn't be, you know, reading scripture and just thinking, isn't the

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Lord good and then say those things, right? I mean, she's got to be thinking and basically living out, judges, doing what's right and thinking what, before you can do what's right in your own eyes, you have to think what is right in your own eyes.

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You have to make up your own standards. Tom Scott You ready for a wow comment from Burkhoff?

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Steve McLaughlin Okay, let's have a wow. Tom Scott The opinion that the days of creation were long periods came to the foreground again in recent years, not, however, as the result of exegetical studies, but under the influence of the disclosures of science.

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Steve McLaughlin Amen. No, that's right. I mean, who'd ever heard of such a thing before evolution came on the scene and the answer is nobody.

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I was watching, I mean, this would be a detour, but I was watching a video about the wonders of the universe the other day and I'm like, you know, you watch that thing and you're like, nobody could come to the evolutionary conclusion if they really understand science.

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Tom Scott Here we go. I'd like to make a comment from this book then, Steve, Steve. Steve McLaughlin Wax is elegant. Tom Scott Yeah, I know. I like this.

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It makes good radio. This is under conversion. This is man's response, man's part of his response in salvation, what the man does.

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Active conversion is, here's his definition, what is conversion? That act of God whereby he causes the regenerated sinner in his conscious life to turn to him in repentance and faith, that's active.

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Passive conversion is the resulting conscious act of the regenerated sinner whereby he, through the grace of God, turns to God in repentance and faith.

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So, you've got active and passive. You've got here God and now man making sure we understand the difference.

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God has already done it and then man just kind of actively pursues it.

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I mean, in other words, when God regenerates you and God gives you a desire for the things of him, your action just kind of confirms what's already taken place on the inside.

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Just like when we say, when we baptize somebody, it's not the waters of baptism to save you, this is just an outward sign of something that's already taken place inside you.

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Same concept. So, yeah, I totally agree. There's not much underlined in Christian baptism section here.

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That is shocking. But I do have a yellow post -it here for whatever reason and it says the word moose on it.

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What is your response to infant baptism? Moose. What does that have to do with anything?

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Well, you just assume baptize a moose as you would a baby. You know, I think I've been in New England 20 years and I've not seen a moose.

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Uh -oh, you just cursed it. It's jinx. The other day I was in California and I said, you know,

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I haven't been stung by a bee all summer. Uh -oh. Bang. I don't know. Your words are containers of force.

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If you study the Bible and you have Grudem and you like systematic theologies, way to go.

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We want to commend you. Just watch out. If you have Berkhoff, congratulations, you're one of the elects.

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Well, you know, I think Grudem just says so many things so well. And you know, it's just hard to read a systematic theology and then think, okay,

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I have to strain out the things that aren't good. I think we have a lot of charismatics now because of Grudem.

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Probably true. Talk to you next time. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life -transforming power of God's Word through verse -by -verse exposition of the sacred text.

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Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston.

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You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

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The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.