Mega Edition of the Dividing Line: Andy Stanley, 3 Mormons, and a Bit More

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00:38

Well greetings welcome to the dividing line on a Friday it actually ended up being providential that we

00:45

We had to move things around to Friday because that will allow us to respond rather fully to a

00:56

Webcast podcast whatever you want to call it that was posted. I believe yesterday morning

01:04

Jonathan merits program Featuring as his guest Andy Stanley and You know right before I left for Colorado Michael Brown had interviewed

01:15

Andy Stanley. I listened to that on the On the drive up to Colorado right the beginning as I recall

01:22

Didn't get to do much about because we didn't get to do many programs early on during that particular trip but I just felt like You know

01:33

Michael's always nice to everybody and you know I would have pushed a little harder obviously than than than Michael normally does in that situation, but still

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Because of Michael's background and because of his abilities in Hebrew and Old Testament studies things like that.

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I I just got the feeling that that Stanley was sort of Playing the field, you know, you know sort of know what context you're in Everybody has to do that on one level or another.

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I suppose it's always wise to know what context you're in but Obviously the situation was different in this webcast with Jonathan Merritt who obviously is not the most conservative of individuals and As a result

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It just seemed to me that Stanley was a little little less guarded in What he was saying and as a result,

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I think you can Hear where some of the seriously dangerous Material really comes out now again as we have mentioned in the past Andy's Andy Stanley is the result of an interesting confluence of a number of different Influences come together in his in his theology one that I think needs to be kept in mind is

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Norman Geisler and we've always said theology matters and One of the things we're gonna hear in from Andy Stanley is the amazing statement in his mind of what the relationship between the church and scripture is and he completely denies

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The Reformed emphasis upon these the Theano Stas word of God Bringing forth and becoming the very voice of God to the church he sees the the scriptures coming from the church just as Rome does and of course

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Norman Geisler long history of Compromised influence by Rome.

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There's just no question about it Guys PhD from a Jesuit institution and and You look at his soteriology.

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That was deeply influenced by you know We've gone over that many times in the years past.

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I realize we have new New listeners all the time and you may be going, huh? The archives are all there lots of archives

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Yeah, yeah put put Geisler into a omen org and you'll get a lot of stuff On various subjects, but primarily one subject anyway

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But you also have the anti Lordship Perspective from Dallas Seminary that was very much a part of things and now you've got this left -leaning

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And it what's weird is he fancies himself an apologist and we've certainly recognized that apologetics is

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Primarily practiced by conservatives who have a very high and consistent necessarily.

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So view of truth The farther you you drift to the left the less relevant apologetics becomes to you

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Because you're not holding forth an objective message any longer. Anyways So why why were yourself along those lines?

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And so it was a fascinating conversation. We're gonna play some segments of it If you now if you like me it's it's

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August so the briefings back and If that's a part of your

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Monday through Friday regular life You will be a little

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Surprised I think To listen this morning to the briefing Because that may be one of the longest single segments

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Now, you know when when dr. Mahler addressed Matthew Vines, I think it took up the entire program.

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So there's been some but Generally, dr. Mahler does not invest

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Sounded like over half the program To a single thing like that. So obviously he believes it's very important to address this and He Went all out and Started talking about about Marchione and You know, he was careful.

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He said I'm not saying he goes all the way to what Marchione did, but he identified the

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Influences that we need to be able to see and this is one of the problems is that in in In the modern era there is especially in theological education.

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There is so Little emphasis upon a functional church history education for seminary students that The left keeps bringing up old dead stuff that all of a sudden looks really cool

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And so you realize we did that only a hundred years ago. We did that 1 ,800 years ago. We did that a thousand years ago.

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It's just repeating the same thing over and over again It's the old those who forget the pastor doomed repeated line, which is very very very true

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Now, of course, you always put some new clothes on and you know Make the old look somewhat new but the better, you know church history the more you're going.

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Oh that again Oh that again over there. Mm -hmm. Yep, and that's really what we see

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We see going on there. So Anyway, let me see if this is uh, yeah, it is sort of working

07:35

It's it's always got that delay, but it's it's not too bad So, let's listen

07:43

I have the advantage dr. Moeller only has 20 some odd minutes and I have as long as I want to go

07:52

Rich says we've got all day. So a problem is I got up at 2 30 this morning did a 54 mile bike ride in the dark and So it's like 2 o 'clock in the afternoon for me

08:03

I know it is on the East Coast, but I'm still in Arizona. And so my body is going boy

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A nap would be really nice right now. So I'm Happen to push it just a little bit right now But we will we will get through it.

08:15

Oh, I need to put this back there I'm gonna play this just a little bit fast 1 .2 isn't enough to make people sound like Mickey Mouse or anything, but it allows to allows us to get through a little bit more so I wanted to start actually with some observations about the the interviewer

08:35

Jonathan Merritt has a rather intriguing position in Broader evangelicalism,

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I wouldn't identify him really as Historically an evangelical any longer given the influences that he has but for example, listen to the the list of authors that he

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Whips off right here in fact You'll notice if you're much of a reader that there's been a slew of new books on this topic from big -name authors people like Rob Bell and Rachel held

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Evans Pete ends Adam Hamilton all of them Wrestling with this question in their own way

09:17

Think that Adam Hamilton was is the the Church Christ guy that I played couple programs ago

09:27

Collapsing on the issue of gay marriage and his view of Scripture there

09:32

Claiming to have a high view of Scripture, but then going into that Rachel held Evans Rob Bell Ends yeah, okay.

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There you go. That gives you a really good idea of the spectrum That is influencing at least the formation of the questions and then just a little bit later

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I talk about in my new book something that Walter Brueggemann the Bible scholar says that you know

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Like if you follow God long enough you go through these movements of kind of orientation disorientation Walter Brueggemann as soon as I heard that My mind went back to this.

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I It's it's strange the older you get your memory is not as good as it used to be and It's strange the things that you remember from the past very very clearly and One of the things that I remember from my theological education were my textbooks

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Books that I was I guess forced to read especially in this one class

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I've shown you the commentary on Deuteronomy from Gerhard von Rot that we had to read and The assignment was to read the commentary and then write a pro -con review of it and Again, this was at Fuller Seminary long long ago and and I Got good grades

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Back in the 80s you could still disagree with stuff But everybody that had to read von

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Rot and Deuteronomy Brueggemann Genesis you can look through here and You will find all sorts of markings on the pages

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Where I was very carefully reading, you know, what he was saying. I just saw something here. Ah, there's a ha at the top of a page and You know this these became the the things that I used in my

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In my response and I wrote and back then you could you could tear things apart and still get a decent grade

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I don't think that would be the case any longer But you know here on page 84

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But all those who regard such events as punishment for sin have failed to understand the change in God and the margin

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I've written Psalm 90 verse 2 and then Because of a revolution in the heart of God that relation is now based in unqualified grace

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And I've got that marked out and the point is this that Brueggemann is a

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Brilliant brilliant scholar really is Doesn't change the fact that he's so far off the left that if he was a plane he'd have two left wings so The the thing to keep in mind and to remember is

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Theological accuracy is not a function of IQ There are brilliant people and then not so brilliant people just on both sides of The divide and the divided it's now not a divide anymore.

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It's much more of just a wild spectrum But the point is Brueggemann Ends we are not talking here about Anything that would even be slightly conservative and so what you're hearing here

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Are two people talking about their journey away from? What might be called fundamentalism?

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In a sense maybe not in these strict independent fundamentalist type mindset that That you might automatically think of but certainly a very conservative evangelicalism and and both these men who have very famous fathers have moved a long ways away from where they were they were raised and that likewise,

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I think Needs to be something you keep in mind as you listen to the questions and the possible applications of the responses this wasn't just another opportunity for Andy Stanley to talk about an

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Unhooking the church from the Old Testament. He's obviously very very embarrassed by the content of the

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Old Testament historically speaking worldview speaking ethically and morally

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So on and so forth but All of this ends up having to have application and one of the key key issues where the consistency of the moral and ethical system of the

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Old Covenant comes directly into the New Covenant and it becomes the unbreakable link between old and new

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Covenant and the fact that you know when you hear people saying Jesus never mentioned homosexuality

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That is either a completely ignorant person speaking which is the majority of the time or it's the result of This unhooking that Andy Stanley himself and many others are busily engaged in attempting to do the problem is if you have a solid understanding of the relationship between old and New Testament if you recognize for example that when when

15:16

Paul Up braids the Corinthians about a man who has his father's wife an incestuous relationship and Up braids the

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Corinthians you should know this is wrong How should they know it's wrong because it's in the law first Corinthians chapter 5 is

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Assuming the continuing validity of the moral law that Andy Stanley and others are trying to disconnect this from and so the

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Strongest most consistent response to the revoice conference push toward homosexual inclusion as an accepted lifestyle in the church is a recognition of the continuing abiding validity of God's law in old and new

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Testament scriptures and So the foundation of a meaningful interpretation of Romans chapter 1 for screens in chapter 6 first He was chapter 1 or any of the other relevant texts in the

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New Testament is to see that consistency. They they form a Unbreakable chain

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Unless you say actually we're just starting all over again in the New Testament all that stuff that God spent all that time talking about abomination acts just Just for Israel doesn't have anything to do with us

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Okay, well that's pretty much gonna take everything apart and and and put us back in the

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Stone Ages Morally and ethically or it's going to allow you to embrace without much difficulty

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The flow of the current cultural whatever it is you're doing So let's let's keep that in mind when we think about what is behind Some of the terminology that we will hear as we listen to this particular

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Interview for the first time I felt like I had a framework for understanding the storyline of the entire

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Bible and that was it was eye -opening for me than the other big moment for me was I took a class in seminary with dr

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Norman Geisler on classical apologetics and that again created a major shift for me as an adult in terms of how

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I Okay, so just again influences as I said taking a class on Classical apologetics from Norman Geisler who is going to be very opposed in his epistemology to the

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Reformation to reform things That's gonna end up having a major influence upon Andy Stanley There was no the

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Bible until the fourth century when we think about the Bible we think about a book that contains now I may have missed it.

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I'm sorry. I I thought I had marked it. Maybe I didn't go back but prior to That statement

18:09

That I just played a moment ago He had mentioned hearing a sermon on the nature of the covenants and he said, you know, this is something we never talked about Okay, maybe in in in Baptist churches.

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That's true in Reformed Baptist churches. That's not the case I don't know where that's coming from. Oh, yes,

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I do Hmm. I'm not sure what to do about that preferences Yeah The deed where is the

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Sounds play all none. There we go. That should fix that anyway

18:44

In a Reformed Baptist Church that wouldn't have been the case but in the

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Southern Baptist churches by and large by and large there are exceptions obviously, especially founders style

18:58

Southern Baptist churches, but The issue of covenants would be addressed but they basically agreed.

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Yeah, whoever talked about, you know covenants well The problem is what he's now adopted is a radical

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Radical discontinuity perspective in the sense that you just you can you can just take your sword and just right between Matthew and Malachi and Just chop it in half and all will be well, in fact, he'll say later on all he really needs he actually said this would be two

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Gospels and first Corinthians and I just go That's not really a healthy holistic view of why the

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Holy Spirit has given us all that he's given us. Is it no It's not so we go back to What I started playing and stopped there was no the

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Bible until the fourth century when we think about the Bible we think about a book that contains the Jewish scripture and the

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Christian writings and such a thing did not exist until after Christianity became illegal and scholars could come out of the shadows and actually put such a thing together

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So note that the early church no one ever said in the early church the Bible says the Bible teaches the Bible says the Bible teaches because there was no the

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Bible but to your point of your question there was there was Scripture scripture.

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Yes, and that's why this is a distinction with no difference Okay Technically as far as Manuscripts are concerned

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Binding it all together in one big hunk and volume. Sure. That's irrelevant the church has always been a text based community

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There has always been the documents of the covenants that have been given to us I think this would be

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I would challenge Andy Stanley to read Michael Kruger's books on Canon I think he'd start getting the balance that would help him to see where he's jumped off the cliff here but Again, you read the early church fathers and they are always from the earliest point from the

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Didache Quoting from as a final authority

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The scriptures that are available to them at that point in time Now was there a canon process of the

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New Testament just like with the Old Testament? Yes, there was does that Somehow mean that the scriptures then are secondary to the church come forth from the church

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I mean I couldn't believe what he said that would allow the Scholars to come out from the shadows and and to do such a thing You think that's where the

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Bible came from with the scholars coming out of the shadows? It really makes me wonder what what

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Stanley's Bibliology is as to the actual origination of Scripture what its relationship to the church really is

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I mean, we're seeing some some serious issues here That From my perspective would lead him leave him wide open

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To Roman Catholic refutation and Roman Catholic proselytization to be honest with you which is again goes

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The origins that he is driving his theology from have been impact along those lines as well

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When we see the word scripture in our New Testament It means something very very very very different than it does to us because when we hear the word scripture

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We think the Bible so when I say the word scripture I think anything that was God breathed anything that you know was is inspired and it's true because of the source

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Not necessarily because of you know, who wrote it down or when but that that distinction between Scripture and the Bible I don't think it used to be that important but because of the generation we live in and because of our culture

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I think it's an extremely important that people understand what the Bible is and the differentiation between that and what people thought

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Especially in the first century when they saw or heard the term the scripture or scripture So I don't know if that's what you're asking

23:06

There's there's there continues to be real confusion in Andy Stanley's mind at this point

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Is there really functionally relevantly some massive difference between saying the scriptures say when when

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Luke refused refers to Paul's writings in the same category of Scripture When possibly

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Paul refers to Luke's gospel and quotes from it as scripture When when

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Peter refers to Paul's writings again in the context of Scripture Why?

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Why do we have to? Go to the canon process and its final formalization in the fourth century and Have a

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Bible for those references to Scripture to be relevant. I don't

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I don't understand it I don't see how in this generation or any other generation that somehow some big

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Major important thing that is supposed to keep people from losing their faith, which is what he says

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He's most concerned about here different frames of reference again going back to what I said about covenants God's covenant with Israel which set the context for really everything between the end of Genesis and Malachi It's a very different worldview and it's a in some ways.

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It's a very different Value system and what Jesus introduced now, we've got to stop right there.

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That is Right on that's sticking your toes over the line of heresy

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It really is. I Mean, that's just false that this is false as you can get you you have

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Jesus introducing something that is a Okay, let's remember something

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Jesus is the God of the Old Testament Okay, that is Jesus speaking.

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And so now Jesus has all of a sudden changed his tune It's one thing to recognize the supremacy and superiority of the new covenant the inclusion of the

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Gentiles the world mission all that's Wonderful, but don't you dare?

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tell me that the worldview of The Old Covenant is different fundamentally different than that of The new what what do you what are you talking about?

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How can the same God have a different worldview? I mean the the the presupposition of the

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New Testament writers is the holiness of God's law That brought about the crucifixion those same texts that that contained

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The the prophecies of the resurrection are the same texts that have this worldview does he not see the a

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Sound solid well read opponent of Christianity would absolutely tear this stuff to shreds

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It is Wow, I when I heard that I'm like, what are you talking about?

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It and he's gonna go on and say worse so I guess we can hold our wrath till then and so Christians have a tendency to mix and match dip into the old and the new blend it all together and come up with a

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You know a very interesting Form of Christianity some part of my point was hey It's time that we grow up and let the

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Old Covenant be with the Old Covenant is but focus our attention on the new Now notice in in his thinking that's that's a maturity thing

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You know when people When people who grew up ignorant of church history discover some

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Heresy from the past and try to revive it. They always say This is what happens when you grow up.

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This is this is how you become mature. Yeah and and so if you if you actually

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You know, I Just I just thought of Sermon that I did in the

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Hebrews series a few years ago where It's a

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Sunday morning. I remember because it was very bright in the sanctuary Where I went through what was it?

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The was it 17? I Think it was like 17 18 16 points that John Owen gave on the identity of who is sanctified in Hebrews 10 29 and It was all based upon Covenantal theology and you know all that that kind of stuff

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So those of us who have actually been, you know reading stuff like that and maybe wrestling with stuff like that Okay, so Andy Stanley wasn't doing any of that stuff but we're just sort of Irrelevant you can ignore all that stuff to grow up is to Take the

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I mean, it's let's let's be honest. It's the easy way to deal with covenant issues to just simply go who

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I cut the book in half and There you go.

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We just solve that we're the adults in the room. No, you know, there's

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You can think that you can you can disconnect these things unhook these thing unhitch these things but thankfully

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God made those connections out of something. You can't break you can you can think you can't but you can't break them

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So yeah, yeah, I don't I don't buy that one Don't buy that one for a second that you're the one that is giving the mature view here

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You know in the first first century, of course The apostles dipped into the Old Testament or the Old Covenant to make their point about Jesus to Jews in our modern culture now

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To make their point about Jesus to Jews Jesus the first thing he does at the resurrection is to open their minds to the scriptures upbraid them for their unbelief and point out the fact that from Moses through the all of the prophets they testified of him.

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It's not oh, well Hmm, you need to make a point to the Jews here. So how So do you think we think we had to use those old those old covenant scriptures?

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Maybe that's all we got So I guess we'll you know, the Jews will listen to it because it's their scriptures.

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So until we get something better. Oh My No, this is

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There's got to have been a Fundamental. I mean, I mean this this is what you see in here is the fruit of that deutero -canonical

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View, I've talked to before where people are canonically challenged where functionally they may say they have 66 books

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But let's be honest. They really don't The the Old Testament canon exists on a lower level

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Functionally in their mind. I mean a lot of people have multiple levels. I mean if it's red

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It has the highest level of authority and and then if it's in the New Testament, but not read It's the second level and unless your revelation and that has a special high level for some people and then you get to the

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Old Testament and You know certain books have higher levels than others and Second Chronicles or Zephaniah.

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I mean, it's about the lowest canonical level you can get for some folks This is this is what's behind a lot of this type of stuff because if you really believe that all

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Scripture is the honest us and all scripture is profitable. You'd have a hard time making these kinds of distinctions that are that are being made here, so Yeah, no,

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I This was painful to listen to to make their point about Jesus to Jews in our modern culture

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I'm convinced and and you know, I'm sure there's are people who would argue with this I'm convinced that we actually make a better case for Jesus if we leave the

31:32

Old Testament or the Old Covenant out of the argument So let's not do what the

31:37

Apostles did because we have a different context and So we can't we cannot rely upon apostolic example.

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Okay The Apostles did go out in all the world and Hmm, you know

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Rome and Corinth and stuff like that You know, they but they first went in the synagogues, but you know, we don't don't get a lot of information about exactly how they approached you know,

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I suppose got Acts 17 and that's about it there and So so maybe that's how we should do it is we should we should assume

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That because Paul didn't start in the same way in Acts 17 as he did in in any of the synagogues say in Acts 13 that we can just unhook stuff and and The reality is we have to make up our own way of doing it because there there really isn't

32:30

I mean, it's the modern generation is just so different that we just sort of have to have to hoof it and rather than taking biblical parameters and Trusting that it's the application of the

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Word of God by the Spirit of God that word and spirit thing That's that Reformation stuff again and that Reformation stuff

32:49

I I'll be honest with you a lot of these folks I think Andy Stanley in an honest moment would say hey

32:55

Reformation stuff was great for the Reformation, but we don't live in that age anymore And of course, we don't live in that age anymore.

33:03

I Brought that up in my sermon in the slush kirka in Wittenberg last year.

33:11

I mean part of the whole point of my sermon there was Things have changed

33:18

They've degraded You could you could actually you actually had more of a foundation to talk to the lost in Luther's day

33:28

Then we have now because of secularism so on so forth. So I'm not for a second downplaying the reality of secularism however, what

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I would say is The the worldview of the secularist

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Does not change the fact that that secularist is made in the image of God and The question we have to have is what is the power of God even in our day?

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Even in our day, what is the power of God? Is it not the Word of God and the Spirit of God? Word and spirit that's it.

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Has that changed? Has there ever been a time in history where word and spirit is not what the church possesses?

34:14

As its primary as the only thing that has been given to us and is it not enough

34:22

That's an important question We because our apologetic for Christianity and for Jesus really stands on Three feet if you can think of it like a stool number one the resurrection

34:32

You don't need ancient props when somebody rises from the dead after predicting it number two, okay And Resurrection outside of An explanation is just a freaky historical event

34:54

Okay, there has to be an explanation of who died

35:01

Why did he die and why has he been raised up?

35:07

And what provides that context? God's special revelation called scripture and specifically the prophetic word

35:19

Because that's what Jesus immediately started teaching the disciples as soon as he rose from the dead

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Which means that's probably pretty important. So first leg Not so much

35:30

We continue predicting it number two the destruction of the temple because Jesus predicted that and you can go visit the destruction

35:37

You know the destroyed temple today Hmm.

35:42

I had not heard that one before I don't think

35:49

Jesus was the only one who in the decades prior to the destruction of Jerusalem had foreseen problems between The Jewish people and the

35:59

Romans, but he did give very specific Prophecy concerning the destruction of the temple.

36:07

So would that be a general way of saying fulfilled prophecy? and yet,

36:14

I Don't remember the Apostles Identifying that as the second leg of the apologetic for the church

36:25

Can't think of a single one So, I guess we're breaking new ground number three the church so my so the church

36:39

What do you mean by that? the local church universal church Survival of church through the ages.

36:45

What do you mean? The church is the third leg what? There's obviously a whole lot more behind that somewhere that is not explained.

36:53

I have no idea how you Align those three in some way that it'd be a three -legged stool or something.

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I I Don't get it the point I was making and have made on multiple occasions to our local church is that in terms of defending our faith or in terms of What does our faith rest on we really don't need the

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Old Covenant or the Old Testament to prop it up Prop it up. How about explain it?

37:20

How about be the foundation? How about be not only the prophetic word and the Apostles did

37:26

Emphasize that over and over and over and over and over again. I guess it was just because they were talking to Jews, but How about Foundation out of which it grows so that it can be made sense of it can be explained

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How about that? What do you mean? We don't need it all of a sudden You can just cut the foundation out from underneath it and all will be well

37:49

It just becomes a Contextless event that you then have to fill with meaning what

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I don't think Andy Stanley realizes is there is no way for him to Maintain a belief in solo scriptural logically with what he's doing here

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There has to be external sources of authority that he can bring in because he's not using what

38:10

God has given to us he's chopped that up out of embarrassment and That comes from a lack of trust in the

38:17

Spirit of God to redeem his own people You know if you've got to convince people to just tip that hat, you know toward God, that's what makes you a

38:27

Christian there's there's no trust in the Spirit of God working the miracle of regeneration sovereignly here and Once again, it's all connected folks.

38:37

We've tried to emphasize that for many decades now It's all connected

38:42

Christian truth is a beautiful hole And once you start warping one part of it, it's gonna have an impact on something else, you know my

38:55

My grandkids are coming over this evening and So my wife got this brilliant idea

39:02

She was out shopping and she found this This shade thing that you can put up in your backyard.

39:10

It gives you shade in a certain area and She's like, well, you know we could put this in the backyard and and because she's gonna cook some chicken on the on the grill and and Thankfully, it's not gonna be a hundred and fourteen degrees today.

39:24

It sort of cooled off a little bit It was actually nice on my ride this when I got down to 71, I think out toward the

39:30

Stanzia this morning So, of course, it's four o 'clock in the morning. But anyway and so it takes two people it's sort of all these frame things and you have to you have to pull on both sides and The problem was she's not as tall as I am

39:48

So so I could get the legs on one side but then I had to go over and have her hold that side and then

39:55

I had to and if if we Hadn't done that it would have been warped Because for all the all the stuff to fit everything's got to be snapped into place if you leave some stuff

40:08

Unsnapped it ends up looking a little funky and probably would eventually fall over and stuff like that Now that's a strange illustration of the fact that once you start, you know, we don't get one leg, right?

40:20

It it warps things and so the the cover ends up moving and and it ends up impacting all sorts of other things in that little

40:27

Gazebo thingy that we've got going in the backyard right now Christian truth, you know

40:33

Especially especially when you're working on the foundational stuff When you get it's one thing to have differences up toward the top, you know

40:42

Because you know there were Velcro Velcro straps you had to do up the top, you know And that didn't really impact much if you didn't get all the

40:50

Velcro exactly, right? Cuz that's sort of up at the top and it just sort of moves around anyways, but down at the bottom the foundational stuff

40:57

You have one one problem down there. Nothing else is gonna fit It ends up creating a systemic warping and that's why a person's view of what

41:08

Scripture is is so vitally important and Can end up having such a huge impact on major things like how the church views homosexuality.

41:19

I Mean in case you haven't noticed if you don't have the highest view of Scripture You are not gonna stand very long against the current social pressure to give in on that subject

41:29

And that's why we see so many people giving in on that subject all over the place First century

41:34

Jews did when they were trying to defend their faith to first century Jews who were you know, you know

41:39

Not embracing the way or the Jesus movement So I do feel like if we're gonna survive the

41:46

Internet and if we're gonna survive survive the misinformation agent Jonathan you know this and this is worth repeating as many times as we can think about it a person can discover

41:55

Everything that's in the Bible without actually owning a Bible or ever picking up a Bible or ever reading a

42:00

Bible and when you and I Grew up that wasn't the case to get misinformation about the Bible You have to go to college or to a library

42:06

But now in our world, it's not just what the Bible says It's what else the Bible says it undermines people's faith.

42:12

So I am convinced for the sake of this generation in the neck Late In fact,

42:20

I'm gonna go to normal speed just one but It's not just what the

42:25

Bible says it's what else the Bible says that undermines people's faith. So Does that make any sense?

42:33

it Third time it's not just what the Bible says. It's what else the Bible says that undermines people's faith.

42:41

So I Think what he's saying is

42:48

There's parts of the Bible that he finds defensible and there's parts of the Bible. He doesn't find defensible and We don't want people to lose their faith

42:57

Whatever that is and if you don't trust that faith is actually the work of the Spirit of God using the Word of God Then you you're gonna be very worried about this kind of thing

43:07

Because you can't really trust God to save anybody because God can't save anybody It's up to us to save ourselves and you know, it's all that anti Lordship stuff, but it still didn't make any sense but I think the idea is

43:21

There's stuff that we should Just leave out as long as you get the tip of the hat as long as you get that person quote -unquote becoming a

43:29

Christian You know acknowledging Jesus You don't have to worry about regeneration.

43:36

I have to about sanctification. I have to worry about the applications What about those types things? That's the anti Lordship stuff. I Hope you see whoa.

43:43

I hope you see where that that goes. I Hope you see how this is relevant to homosexuality Gay marriage and other issues in in the church because it is

43:56

That leaves the door wide open leaves door wide open But I'm not a hundred percent certain exactly what he meant by that to be honest with you

44:04

I am convinced for the sake of this generation in the next generation We have to rethink our apologetic as Christians and the less we depend on the

44:13

Old Testament to prop up our New Testament faith The better because of where we are in culture and again,

44:19

I could go on and on about that but that's what I was alluding to so Apologetics should be determined by what culture you're in to the point of Abandonment of apostolic example apostolic principle and it is a it is a thoroughly

44:40

You know if it works that's great That's that's that's the standard

44:46

If we see it working, how are you judging that? You know utilitarianism

44:54

Something along those lines. How do you how do you judge that it's quote -unquote working? That is a

45:00

I think major major question that needs Needs to be asked. I was a little confused to be honest by some of the controversy

45:09

I mean unless you're a Seventh -day Adventist or you're part of the Messianic Jewish tradition and most of your critics are not then chances are your

45:18

Christian faith is already at least partially unhitched from the Old Testament if you're Honest, you're not practicing

45:24

Early temple Judaism and your understanding of key ideas like the afterlife and righteousness and justice are largely derived from the

45:30

New Testament Understanding. So am I missing something here or that was my point?

45:40

Again I suppose If if what Jonathan Merritt is

45:46

Trying to say here is that he was given an exceptionally shallow

45:55

Perspective on God's law the relationship the Old Testament the New Testament What what is the distinction between ceremonial law and moral law

46:08

Is there is there law specifically for the people of Israel? That Is not does not carry a specific kind of moral

46:19

Commandment for all people. I mean, it's not like Christians have not been discussing the kinds of law and the the proper application for literally over a thousand years

46:37

Maybe if you're not aware of that, you never heard anybody talking about that But it's really hard to think that someone could go.

46:44

Well, you know, unless you're one of them Seventh -day Adventists, you know you've already and it's Really?

46:52

So so the Seventh -day Adventists I Was just lost that point going

46:59

You're you're either Not accurately representing things or just really don't understand what's going on at all and It's it's sort of hard for me to believe that that you could be quite that naive as an author

47:11

Of all the stuff that's out there on the subject of the proper application of God's law

47:17

We have a tendency and it's really the way you and I were raised with the Bible. Nobody explained

47:23

These the differentiation of covenants. It's like this week the pastor preaches out of Psalms next week He preaches out of Ephesians the next week.

47:30

He preaches, you know from the life of David So we all grew up throwing this in a blender without much differentiation well,

47:37

I Suppose there are people like that That's that's not how we do things by any stretch of imagination, but I I suppose there are some that do that Churches because I just want to drill this in their heads is that Christianity can stand on its own to nail -scarred

47:56

Resurrection first century feet that Christianity can stand on its own to nail -scarred resurrection first century feet that just give me two gospels and first Corinthians and that's all

48:05

I need to build a case for why we follow Jesus, you know, that's my point. And so How does that work?

48:13

two Gospels and First Corinthians you really think that's all you need

48:20

Now don't get me wrong. God God has used, you know, third John to bring people to salvation but the

48:27

Holy Spirit of God gave us a particular set of Documents that comprise the the covenant documents of the

48:39

New Covenant and You know, I can I can see how we could have survived without third

48:46

John but You saying you can get away without Romans? Galatians Ephesians Philippians Acts Wow, so this is a this is a minimalization on a amazing scale

49:05

I mean you are so minimizing what the church is and what

49:11

God's intention in giving education to the church is that It's it's astounding to me

49:20

Hadn't planned on doing this, but you might want to Like find the theme or something there.

49:27

We're gonna need to take a break at the top of the hour for just a few minutes well, we're gonna continue on because I've still got a bunch of stuff to do but Need to take a break at the top of the hour, so I'll let you

49:41

Cue that stuff up there and we'll do that Here in just a few minutes actually you just let me know when you've got something and we'll we'll go from there

49:51

Okay, pressing on that early Christians were pretty much married to the idea of circumcision until they unhitch the

49:57

Christian okay, and this is Jonathan Merritt again, and He's just as confused as Andy Stanley maybe more so From what

50:06

I'm hearing that early Christians were pretty much married to the idea of circumcision until they unhitch the Christian wagon from that practice

50:12

So give us for those who didn't and most I would imagine didn't listen to this this sermon series

50:18

Tell us about the way the early Christian Church thought about Scripture Andy Stan is not the first person

50:26

I would ask that question of but what what does he mean that they they were somehow hitched to circumcision,

50:34

I mean the Jews would have in those early years

50:42

Hadn't wrestled with the question yet, but when it does come up in the text that Stanley was preaching on Acts chapter 15

50:52

When it does come up, what's amazing is I think I have it cued up here somewhere

50:59

The idea is that James is just gonna go nope, they don't have to we don't have to worry about it. That's not what they did

51:06

Any One who reads Acts chapter 15 is gonna go, huh?

51:12

There's a there's a whole lot of citation of the Old Testament here for someone who's allegedly unhooking themselves

51:22

Hmm they seem to have Viewed the Old Testament scriptures as normative and as having prophesied the gospel going forth to the

51:33

Gentiles Hmm he even even in the early church Yeah, that's exactly what's going on of Christian Jews who were insisting that every

51:42

Gentile had to be circumcised Which meant they had to become part of the covenant between God and Israel before they could be

51:49

Christian And so at the end of this meeting in Acts 15 James the brother of Jesus stands up and says no they don't

51:55

That's not what happened. I Don't it is really hard for me to understand this

52:02

That's not what happened James does stand up but before then and after then there's this stuff that's getting skipped called the citation of scripture and that God has revealed that this was what he was going to do all along and now we have come to see it and Therefore we dare not lay a burden upon these

52:29

Gentiles that we ourselves could not bear And so we still need to have a unified church

52:35

And so there are certain things that are really offensive to Jews that we shouldn't be doing in the church because that's going to force

52:42

The Jews to go against their conscience and things like that But the point is no you don't have to become a

52:47

Jew before you become a Christian That's what Acts 15 is all about and the scriptures prophesied this and said this

52:55

That's what's right there in front of us Stunning to me That you could just go at James stands up says nope.

53:03

Don't worry about that. That's not what he did Don't and they wrote a letter and sent it to Annie Hock and said I got some good news especially for the men you do not have to embrace the

53:11

Old Covenant in terms of a way of life a Framework or a worldview in order to become a

53:16

Jesus follower. So they Unhitched the Christian faith from Judaism or from ancient

53:22

Judaism and to your point a few minutes ago They unhitched it from ancient

53:27

Judaism if if what if what you're trying to say there is

53:33

That there is a fulfillment motif That there is something new and better in the

53:41

New Covenant That's not the same thing as unhitching from the

53:48

Tanakh What we call the Old Testament scriptures Seeing that the old has passed away the new has come which is a better covenant everyone believes that but that's not the same thing as Abandoning the

54:06

Old Testament scriptures or saying that their worldview is different or their ethics and morality is different and and all the rest

54:13

That kind of stuff. It just simply isn't there. So you uh, you got that. All right We're just gonna take a couple minutes and we're gonna pick right back up where we were and press on What is dr.

54:27

Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

54:33

No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

54:38

Calvinism he insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

54:48

James White replies to dr. Geisler But the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

54:55

Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

55:03

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called Extreme Calvinism Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the

55:18

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

55:32

Breaking news from the White House and the issue gay marriage for a lot of people You know the the word marriage was something that evokes very powerful traditions religious beliefs

55:42

I think same -sex couples should be able to get married the NAACP has passed a resolution

55:47

Endorsing gay marriage as a civil right this comes two weeks after the president announced his support for same -sex marriage

55:57

Under the guise of tolerance our culture today grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality

56:03

Anyone opposing or questioning this today is quickly shouted down called a bigot a homophobe a hatemonger

56:10

Threatened and accused of discrimination. It's become commonplace to see people who take a biblical stand against homosexuality

56:17

Ostracized to the point of losing their job How soon will it be before we will also see people losing their freedom now more than ever

56:23

Christians need to be equipped to be An approved workman of God correctly dividing the word of truth as we are told in 2nd

56:28

Timothy 2 15 dr James White and pastor Jeffrey Neal have partnered to bring you their book the same -sex controversy if you are

56:35

Christian this book is just one of The tools you'll need to be prepared to give a proper defense of the faith in the face of the unrighteous onslaught

56:42

We face today the authors right for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on this subject Explaining and defending the foundational biblical passages that deal with homosexuality including

56:52

Genesis Leviticus and Romans in a straightforward Loving manner they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and return to God's plan for his people the same -sex

57:02

Controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality Get your copy today from the bookstore at a omen dot org and don't forget to search for other resources like debates and past Dividing lines dealing with this very provocative issue and remember theology matters

57:31

And welcome back. That was quick, huh? Yeah just Had to take care of something there and no

57:38

I did not have to run to the bathroom It was something something else. So, where are we here? We are What I do with that.

57:44

Okay, we're diving right back in no introductory comments needed clearly

57:50

Was unhitched from the Old Covenant and I would say not just the specifics of the Old Covenant But that Old Covenant worldview and that Old Covenant value system is why?

57:59

Old Covenant worldview and Old Covenant value system that that The the the one the the central aspect of things that I would say remains absolutely consistent is

58:15

The worldview and value system God's holiness didn't change I mean, it was the very content of that law that that condemned man that resulted in the crucifixion itself so What are we talking about here, what do you mean?

58:38

I mean the specific things that have been done away with were the things that had to do with the national identity of the people of Israel and the theocracy that it was supposed to exist there and and the the

58:52

The outward signs that identified the Jewish people over against their neighbors and and that kind of stuff

59:00

But the worldview in the ethical system, that's the very thing that stayed the same He's got it exactly backwards

59:07

That's what's amazing, you know Jonathan is kids growing up one of the things that we haven't asked you this but you know

59:12

Everyone struggles with is why is the God of the Old Testament so seemingly different than the God Jesus introduced? When I heard this

59:20

I was like what? Now thankfully a little bit later. He's gonna say well, it's it's not a different God, but then why even say this?

59:33

That shows such a shallow understanding who God is in both covenants in both

59:39

Testaments that ignores The judgment motifs in the new it ignores the grace the chesed of the old

59:50

It's just a canard That's what it is. It's a canard. It's it's yeah, we were ignorant and we didn't really read our

59:58

Bible the way we should have and Therefore we had all these misconceptions then why bring it up? And of course there are people who lost faith over that and the answer is no

01:00:08

There are not people who lost faith over that This is where Andy Stanley's false theology of anti lordship anti reformed comes in there are people who have professed a false faith and Then abandon a false faith

01:00:25

But Jesus does not lose his sheep he is a powerful

01:00:32

Savior and You see over and over again the poison of the anti lordship

01:00:42

Non -gospel Impacting this kind of stuff. It makes a huge difference

01:00:50

Didn't change his mind God was a founding a nation in the Old Testament and God introduces himself to the world as father in the

01:00:57

New Testament It's the same God, but he was doing two different things So God is introducing himself as father in the

01:01:08

New Testament But he was just building a nation in the Old Testament. There wasn't a revelation of God's Chesed.

01:01:15

Well, there is that Psalm 136 thing. There is that Isaiah 53 thing. Oh, come on I could go on and on it's just it's just a theological and biblical mess

01:01:27

Fulfill it if the Old Covenant is a plane. I'm landing it if it's a homework assignment. I'm completing it if it's dessert

01:01:33

I'm finishing it. So, you know a transition happened in Acts 15 the church finally, you know accepted that and so that was that was the background so this is again massive distinction just Chop it right down the middle huge chasm.

01:01:49

That's what you've got in In Andy Stanley, we're actually getting there believe it or not

01:01:56

So yeah the the sticking point the beginning our Apologetic the reason we follow Jesus is not the teaching of the

01:02:02

Old Testament and it's not even the teaching of Jesus It's the resurrection of Jesus that punctuates his claims about who he claimed to be and we this is incoherent

01:02:12

I continue to say this is utterly incoherent indefensible Indefensible, you know and he may think that this is a this is the best thing ever

01:02:21

Look at you know, I know who some of his favorite apologists are we've can compared and contrasted a consistent biblical apologetic

01:02:34

In debate with his favorite apologists and Haven't done.

01:02:40

Well, they haven't done well as a result. This is just incoherent the statement. I mean I Try to try to chart this out

01:02:47

So, yeah, the the sticking point the beginning our apologetic The reason we follow Jesus is not the teaching of the

01:02:54

Old Testament and it's not even the teaching of Jesus It's the resurrection of Jesus that punctuates his claims about who he claimed to be

01:03:02

Who he claimed to be in what? Who he claimed to be in what

01:03:07

Andy in his teachings which are contained in the scriptures and And then he pointed people to the

01:03:17

Old Testament scriptures as evidence of who he was This kind of well, we just let's just get the target so small so minimized

01:03:29

Doesn't work doesn't work. It's pure pipe dream and we don't have time to talk about this

01:03:35

But honestly the only reason any of us take any of those stories and the Old Testament seriously is because Jesus did

01:03:41

If if there had been yeah So Paul didn't take any of them seriously and till he met

01:03:48

Jesus, right? Well, no No, he had already taken him very seriously Huh?

01:03:55

Hmm New Testament if there had been no Jesus You and I wouldn't believe somebody built a boat and put two of every kind of animal in it

01:04:02

We wouldn't get those those Jews never believed that for 1400 years they didn't believe that no nobody

01:04:09

No Leave the Adam and Eve and a talking snake week We would put all of that in the category of ancient myth with people trying to understand so all of those stories

01:04:18

They so what he's really saying is we hyper intelligent modern men

01:04:24

Would not believe these things because we are the children of the Enlightenment That's what he's really saying

01:04:31

So easily accept and embrace The only reason they do is because of Jesus not because they're in the

01:04:37

Bible and not because you know The Old Testament can stand on its own not because the Old Testament can stand on its own because evidently it can't from his perspective

01:04:48

Hear that or what he's saying is well in our culture today so God's Word I Mean you look at Jesus's view of the

01:04:58

Old Testament and I love how he's gonna put later on You know, once you accept Jesus and you find out Jesus is really interested in the

01:05:04

Old Testament No, it's the author of it. It's all about him

01:05:10

He has the highest view of it That's Not the same way it really can't the reason we take the

01:05:18

Old Testament seriously is because Jesus did he said I've not come to Abolish the law of the prophets. He again he embraced it and spoke about it in authoritative terms

01:05:26

So, yeah, the resurrection is the whole deal it's everything and again as you quoted I've that's one of them

01:05:32

I mean, so when Jesus said it before the resurrection that wasn't the real deal When he said search scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life.

01:05:39

That wasn't the real deal That that wasn't real until the resurrection Where did the

01:05:46

Apostles ever teach like this where the Apostles ever give us any of this stuff they didn't But I suppose the excuse for that is that's because they didn't have to face the secular world that we lived in today

01:05:59

Quotes I say all the time if somebody can predict their own death and resurrection and pull it off I'm with that guy now

01:06:04

Of course people took that to mean that I don't think the virgin birth is important or that I don't think it happened at All which of course, you know, what was not the point?

01:06:12

In fact, you can appreciate this if I didn't believe in the virgin birth. Do you think I would tell anybody?

01:06:17

I mean, that's a career -ending move, right? So that's that's the background and I You guys stop making those faces, okay be

01:06:30

Because I'm already making them for myself And then when you do that, it's just just very distracting because I'm lost as well.

01:06:36

Yeah, my head's exploding as well. I really struggle I Really struggle to believe that someone could really believe that the virgin birth is a divine truth and treat it with this kind of contempt

01:06:57

You you really think about it, but I'd be a career and a move right there Well, I suppose these days there's so little reverence for all sorts of things

01:07:08

That that guy oh What's that what's the name of you'll know this what's the name of the actor that plays the guy the

01:07:21

Walking Dead main guy Andrew Lincoln, my reason

01:07:26

I ask is that there is a Theologian by name of Andrew Lincoln. I think it's

01:07:32

Andrew Lincoln who wrote a book Against the virgin birth a few years ago. I have it just haven't

01:07:41

There's just only so much heresy that you can you can deal with at one at one point in time certainly

01:07:48

Maybe down the road once I get other projects done more pressing projects is something I'd like to deal with but other people of have interacted with his material, but there are lots of theologians today who have expressed their rejection of the virgin birth as Just a

01:08:11

Pious story, you know, it doesn't really have any particular meaning to it or anything like that.

01:08:17

It's it's quite common wouldn't be career -ending and if Andy Stanley continues on the trajectory that he is on it may not be

01:08:27

I mean if he's Covertin with the the ends and the Rachel held

01:08:32

Evans's and people like that of the world It's not gonna be long before He realizes that's not a career -ending move at all

01:08:42

I'm now surrounded by people that really wouldn't matter one fact The first day that it would look like it would be a positive thing for him to say that he will

01:08:52

That's the dangerous part. That's that's the dangerous part I think you know this line of questioning or this this thinking sort of begs a question for me

01:09:01

I mean, do you think it matters and I've had this conversation with lots of folks here in New York Do you think it matters if?

01:09:07

Noah's Flood really didn't happen in history or Jonah wasn't literally swallowed by a whale because I talked to a lot of people who say

01:09:12

That the truth of these stories would remain Regardless of their historicity. They're not in the Apostles Creed They're not the historicity of them is not central necessarily the

01:09:20

Christian faith in that These arguments of people make to me sound pretty logical. What do you think? Do you get the feeling

01:09:29

You know when someone says these sound pretty logical me what do you think that strikes me as sort of a leading question

01:09:40

To where you get to say what you're really thinking But you get to hide behind.

01:09:46

Well, that's just that's just a question that I asked I wondered about that.

01:09:52

I wondered about that and look in the vast majority of Theological seminaries today this kind of question is absolutely radioactive

01:10:05

Into different directions if you're in the very conservative seminary a few of them that are be left

01:10:14

There is a fear of even talking about it lest you be thought to be

01:10:20

Questionable or something like that and in the vast majority of seminaries which are way over on the left

01:10:26

It is if if you would dare to say that you actually think that it's possible these things actually happened

01:10:34

Your career is over You're done. I mean,

01:10:40

I've told the story before but I In 1984 ish 83 84 one of those two years was taking a

01:10:52

New Testament class Fuller one of my favorite profs way to my left

01:10:58

But guess what you can learn from people way to your left if you have a good solid grounding and foundation

01:11:05

Learned a lot from him But kept my faith and He was explaining

01:11:14

How and why Fuller had abandoned the doctrine of inerrancy and it was a big

01:11:21

New Testament class real big It was it wasn't one of the specialized classes. So it was one of them. They're bad to take so there was like 60 people in there and I Just decided

01:11:33

Okay, and I put my hand up and he had respect for me because I did listen to him he knew that I listened to he knew

01:11:40

I was a good student and I wasn't just arguing for the sake of arguing and So I explained why

01:11:49

I sort of felt like Fuller's token fundamentalist And how often

01:11:56

Things were expressed that basically said If you really believe there's a way of harmonizing these things if you really even look for harmonization if you look for Consistency of themes across time across Authors in in scripture that you're just you're wasting your time you and and you're not a smart person you're basically a fundee

01:12:24

And When I sort of gave a defense of Inerrancy in that class.

01:12:31

I Was mobbed in the hallway afterwards. It was in one of the large rooms in Fleming classroom building and Grand Canyon and There there was there was 20 25 people a third.

01:12:43

I'd say a third of the class Rushed out that door to say to me.

01:12:48

Thank you For saying what I have wanted to say for a long time but didn't even realize that there were other people in the room that that That believed like like I believe and like you believe

01:13:04

So I Do not dismiss Jonathan's question But I also recognize that if what he's reading is

01:13:15

Brueggemann and ends and Rachel held Evans and these types of folks

01:13:23

He's already answered those questions. He's already decided. You know what? I Don't have to think that God ever sent anybody to Nineveh I don't have to think that God caused a gourd to grow over Jonah's head or Any of those things as long as the mythology is

01:13:44

Sufficient as a container for the germ of truth. See I did go to fuck I can still talk like that as long as it's sufficient for that then all is well and I just get the feeling that's where he is and We'll see where Andy is

01:14:02

I think that if a person embraces Jesus claims in terms of who he claimed to be Then a person can put their faith in Christ as their

01:14:10

Savior a person can choose to follow Jesus and then on the back side of that they have to wrestle to the ground when

01:14:15

Jesus referenced many of these incidences was he Referencing them as something that happened in history or was he referencing them?

01:14:22

Like you shouldn't tell a lie because George Washington cut down the cherry tree and he you know He told the truth and we all learned that we should tell the you know

01:14:29

And there's I mean there's all kinds of fables and there's all kinds of you know Stories from the past that we learned from it's why we go to movies and watch fictitious movies and cry

01:14:36

We know this none of this stuff ever happened, but we walk away inspired. So then a person has to decide

01:14:42

Okay, well actually Jesus references the Garden of Eden or he references, you know in the beginning when you know

01:14:47

God created the first two people got he references Jonah So then you have to decide when the

01:14:52

Son of God references these people in these incidences in these prophets What did he mean? They notice what he just said?

01:14:59

I don't think he realized he just contradicted his entire apologetic He said when the Son of God does this well, wait a minute.

01:15:06

How do you know he's son of God? Well, the resurrection proves it well, but all those things he said were before the resurrection

01:15:11

So someone couldn't have known it then couldn't have accepted what Jesus said then See the very idea of defining

01:15:21

Who the Son of God is and why that's important requires Special revelation in Scripture and the resurrection doesn't tell you that because God could have raised anybody from the dead

01:15:32

Being raised from the dead doesn't make Jesus the Son of God You have to have his pre -resurrection claims and his post -resurrection teaching to make it all work, which requires that scripture thing and I'm sorry

01:15:47

Lazarus yeah. Yeah, it all hangs together and I am I am comfortable not everybody's but I'm comfortable

01:15:53

Letting the conversation go from there. Once a person embraces Jesus now, that's another weasel phrase

01:16:00

That that you learn in liberalism I'm comfortable to let the conversation go from there

01:16:09

What does that mean What what exactly I mean, I think what it means is

01:16:17

So hey, you know As long as I can get them to sign the dotted line, that's good.

01:16:23

And the rest of it, you know Doesn't really hold together. This is yeah, they can go wherever.

01:16:29

Yeah What I say is we should have the same view of the Old Testament that Jesus did and it's a man

01:16:36

Amen, Pastor Stanley But you don't I'm sorry, sir.

01:16:41

It is self -evident that you do not I Mean, that's the that's the primary

01:16:50

Criticism I have been offering from the start just were to show up and say here's how you should approach

01:16:55

Here's what you should believe about the Old Testament Anyone who's a Jesus follower with follower would say yes, sir

01:17:01

Yeah, absolutely. So then the challenge is for us to discover how did Jesus view his own scriptures?

01:17:06

Amen He's the author of them Exactly. You do that and you're going to abandon all this stuff.

01:17:12

You really but I'm just afraid you have this filter of How we do apologetics in our culture today, you know this pragmatic stuff

01:17:22

In your mind and it's getting in your way only a few minutes of Quotes left.

01:17:29

You can't really argue with what I'm about to say historically, but it doesn't always sit well with people personally

01:17:34

So I'll say it anyway The primary issue and first base of faith is not about a text again

01:17:41

The Christianity did not begin because somebody read something Christianity began when some people saw something and we have okay, so Fundamentally what you're hearing here is a

01:17:57

Logical and even biblical reversal of origins Because God intended to provide to the

01:18:08

New Testament Church a Foundation that they were to believe in In the scriptures, that's why

01:18:19

Jesus upbraided people for not believing the scriptures So that when they did experience things they had the proper context in which to place those experiences

01:18:30

It's not the experiences that gave rise then to human interpretations

01:18:36

But it was God's sovereign purpose to place those people in a context where they already had the

01:18:47

Knowledge from the scriptures to be able to properly interpret once the Holy Spirit opens their hearts and their minds they have evidence to believe that the documents that document the resurrection whether it's the four

01:18:59

Gospels or First Corinthians or James the fact that James the brother of Jesus shows up believing his

01:19:05

Jesus his brother is his Lord I mean, are you kidding? What would it take for you to convince your brother that you're the son of God?

01:19:10

That would be firstly possible But we know in history James the brother of Jesus shows up in the Jerusalem Church as a leader in the church and in his

01:19:15

He refers to his brother as his Lord so now by the way, I've just found it interesting that this form of apologetics

01:19:23

I Just have have they ever taken on someone who goes?

01:19:30

Well, that's nice, but I'm not really certain that James was written when you claim it was and in fact

01:19:36

I'm not certain that James is some type of independent Source and and so you end up They they pretend that they can get past the tough questions, but they can't there's always gonna be tough questions and They may say well

01:19:53

We don't have to deal with all the alleged contradictions and stuff because we've sort of you know laid inerrancy aside And so you still get tough questions

01:20:00

There's there's no way around tough questions so you're either gonna consistently answer them or Dodge them but the point is again it goes back to the resurrection the text is

01:20:13

Secondary to the events that inspired the text in other words another way of saying that is this the Christian.

01:20:18

Okay, here we go this is here this is and He would not care about this again because of the confluence of influences in his past this is

01:20:32

Pardon part of this you can lay at the feet of Norman Geisler You really really can what you're about to hear the

01:20:39

Christianity that are the Bible did not create Christianity Christianity ultimately and eventually created the

01:20:47

Bible that is Rome's position. That is a Roman Catholic understanding of the relationship of church and scripture you go back to the

01:20:59

Reformation go back to the Writings, especially in the generation after the first Third generation good

01:21:05

Bezos period onward turrets and so on and so forth. You'll see a lot of discussion of this very issue what is the relationship between church and if you don't have a view of scripture as being a

01:21:20

Decreed say Anu Stas Revelation from God that is given to his people

01:21:30

So that they will have a clear understanding of what the gospel is then

01:21:37

It just becomes the result of the actions of the church and that's how Rome can have oral tradition written tradition and you can have

01:21:45

You know things outside of scripture that are authoritative and all the rest of stuff Stanley does not stand with the

01:21:52

Reformation at this point Now is that because he studied church history and decided that was wrong.

01:21:58

No, it's this pragmatics thing again Well, I've found this works works for what works to Get people to tip the hat toward Jesus It's again.

01:22:11

You keep bringing this anti lordship saying is you say why do you keep bringing in because it's so clearly behind What he's doing.

01:22:18

That's why you have to identify it Unlike other religious systems we have an event based faith

01:22:25

But over time it has become a text based faith Yeah that tell tell that to the author of the 119 psalm just in passing chuckles and this is a really big deal and their whole

01:22:36

Theological systems built around, you know, either one of those camps, but I'm convinced Um, our best bet is to step back under the firm our best bet.

01:22:45

I'm glad I Don't I don't do apologetics on the basis of best bets

01:22:53

And I'm glad I don't well of the first century where some people saw Something and because of what they saw and who they saw their faith sprang to life and an axe

01:23:03

This is so powerful to me in the book of Acts Peter and John Face down the very men who crucified

01:23:08

Jesus They're there in the presence of the very men who crucified Jesus and they said we cannot stop talking about what we have

01:23:15

Seen what we have heard and seen so that sounds great, doesn't it?

01:23:21

Sounds wonderful one little problem Have you read that story? I? Preached on it just recently so it was fresh in my mind when it came up, but that's that's

01:23:35

Acts chapter 4 and This is part of what I dealt with because Preaching through p45 and When they stand before the

01:23:47

Sanhedrin with the man that they've healed what do they do? they quote scripture

01:23:55

The very thing he's trying to get away from We this is what we've seen

01:24:02

Hmm by this name this man stands here before you in good health He is the stone which was rejected by you the builders, but which became the chief cornerstone.

01:24:11

Hmm Where'd that come from? Oh that that's a quotation from the Psalter. Oh He's going back to the

01:24:19

Old Testament scriptures hmm so much for non text -based

01:24:26

Religion, etc, etc. One more quote and we wrap it up That's the approach and once a person locks in on you know

01:24:34

What there's plenty of evidence to believe that Jesus walked this earth that he was who he claimed to be You know what? I'm willing notice plenty of evidence

01:24:42

Outside the Bible so the Bible is not enough You got to have some notes just trust a person's intellectual pursuits and spiritual pursuits from that point forward

01:24:52

But I just don't feel any pressure to try to convince people of a lot beyond that But again, here's the thing you fall in love with Jesus.

01:24:58

You're interested in what Jesus was interested in interested in what Jesus was interested Yeah, Jesus was interested in the Old Testament.

01:25:03

He was just interested in it. That's not Jesus's view of the Old Testament and This whole did you just trust their intellect and their pursuits?

01:25:11

Yeah, so I'm gonna trust in doing evangelism apologetics I'm not and I hope you don't either

01:25:20

So like I said this morning This very morning Dr.

01:25:25

Mohler spent quite some time in responding. We did an hour and and 20 minutes or so, so Hopefully that will give you an understanding of what the real issues are and where Andy Stanley has gone astray and again the the problem is that North Point has a wide wide audience and and a lot of influence a lot of influence

01:25:53

And so we simply have to have to address that Okay, believe it or not

01:25:59

We're not done Sorry rich You said

01:26:06

I could go all day so yeah We're just making sure we've got we got it got to cover stuff got to cover stuff

01:26:18

Yesterday I Joined Jeff Durbin and the gang at Apologia radio and we started responding to I Had not seen these but there is an entire

01:26:36

YouTube channel called three Mormons and these are Young kids.

01:26:43

I mean I'm old enough When you are only about 10 years older than my oldest grandchild,

01:26:50

I can call you a kid Okay, so that's that's how that works or You are more than 10 years younger than my youngest child either one works.

01:27:02

You are a kid they they look like they're about the same age that I was when

01:27:08

I first started witnessing to Mormons and So we're talking teeners here and You know, they've got the little you know

01:27:19

They've got high production value and they've got editing afterwards. And I guess it's these aren't even Millennials These are sort of isn't it generation

01:27:27

Z. I think Gen Z. I think is what's after millennial I'm not gonna tell you

01:27:36

I'm not gonna tell you what? I'm not gonna tell you what what Rich said is he's mean

01:27:41

He's he's just a mean man and everybody who thinks that I'm the mean man. You don't hear what he says anyway

01:27:51

The Wanderers yes But they've got they've got the You know the background here and stuff and and they have fun and they're nice and short and stuff like that.

01:28:00

This is the new face of the friendly

01:28:05

Mormon Church, it's not it's not like when I was young the missionaries came in and they told you

01:28:13

Joseph Smith's testimony and in Joseph Smith's testimony, he's like Well All the churches are abomination their creeds are corrupt and their professors are corrupt and so on and so forth and and there's one

01:28:28

True church on earth. I know that this is the new friendly Version of of Mormonism and I'll be honest with you.

01:28:35

I don't think this version is gonna fly in Manti It ain't it this one don't fly in Manti It may be the theme but but it's out there and we certainly invited we we certainly link them to it

01:28:49

And I'll do the same thing once we do this program Get this program posted and by the way,

01:28:56

Rich, I Promised that if they would contact us we would send them a letters to a

01:29:02

Mormon elder is more my brother and the Forgotten Trinity as as well as Get him a copy of Mormonism shadow reality, so Well, we'll see we'll see what what happens

01:29:20

Yeah, yeah, it could be could be might be you never know. We can hope we can hope not We did we've done that in the past And and in the long long distant past back when we were closer this age than we are now

01:29:35

We learned that some of the missionaries we did that for Burned the books once we provide them to them.

01:29:41

So it wasn't those books I hadn't written them yet, but we bought Mormonism shadow reality and stuff like that anyway,

01:29:49

I Want to sort of continue with some of what

01:29:56

Actually, I just realized that's the wrong that's the wrong video. I want I didn't really get a chance to There we go

01:30:07

We only got through a part of what we needed to get through and so I said to Jeff I said, well, you know I do have my own podcast we can we can do this and so I wanted to respond to some of the more stuff in in their videos and We'll just see how far we get with this and how far we want to go

01:30:27

Because there's one other brief topic I want to talk about before we wrap up so One of the things if the three

01:30:34

Mormons whoever the three there's two Mormons that are consistent and then there's a third Mormon that sort of I guess is a fill -in spot, but anyway

01:30:44

One of the things we said and it's not meant to be offensive not trying to put anybody down, but they don't know

01:30:52

Christian theology and badly misrepresented and We're hoping that you know, we can help correct that and they can come to know the truth

01:31:02

Here's an example of that and you've got the you're gonna have the video. Okay Now we have video so you don't have to look at me the whole time

01:31:11

Because we only had audio for the last one, but here's here's a section from the three

01:31:16

Mormons There's a word that's called subordination ism and actually predates the

01:31:21

Trinity and I'm not saying that you know, we're subordination is but I am saying that It does line up a little more with our doctrine that you have what what origin called on Deuteros Theos Which is secondary

01:31:33

God which you call Christ So it's God the Father Jesus Christ the Son the Holy Spirit and the Spirit and the Son are subordinate to the

01:31:39

Father There's no specific date as far as I'm concerned I might be wrong fact check me if when this came to be but it definitely predates the

01:31:46

Trinity and it's kind of that early Christian era so it is more likely and more accurate that that is the close to the true nature of the

01:31:53

Godhead and it's Very similar to LDS doctrine and it's not like Joseph Smith was like, let me get those books before the

01:32:01

Catholics got around. Let's match that It was more so when the revelation was given and the Father and Son appeared to him

01:32:06

It just it became very clear and I supplement that Jesus Christ. Okay, let's Be I won't be able to remember all the points

01:32:14

Subordination ism is earlier than the Trinity which means they haven't read Ignatius or Ignatius as teachings on the deity of Christ and Those issues that are before origin or something like that or even what origin was referring to though even trying to go with origin given what he believed about all sorts of things and what he actually did is

01:32:36

Problematic in of itself, but it's very common for Mormons. Just grab anything in the early church and context in the early church

01:32:43

I don't have to worry about that at all But Let me just roll this back just a second

01:32:52

Because there was something else there that I wanted to want to respond to it's a Trinity and it's kind of that early

01:32:58

Christian era So it is more likely and more accurate that that is the closer the true nature of the

01:33:03

Godhead So if you go early that gets you closer to the true nature of the Godhead So Ignatius is earlier than that Ignatius believes what

01:33:10

I believe and nobody in the early church believe what you believe Nobody you say well, what about that quote?

01:33:17

Show me a single Person in the early church that believed what

01:33:26

Joseph Smith taught in the King Follett funeral discourse just show me one

01:33:32

There's nobody they did not believe that God was once a man who lived on other

01:33:40

Planet Joseph Smith said that was the first principle the gospel and until you can show that Foundational reality every quote you give is going to be irrelevant

01:33:51

Because that is the most definitional aspect of the

01:33:57

Mormon claim concerning an anthropomorphic God They didn't believe it they did not believe it very very important to emphasize

01:34:11

Gotta see that and it's very similar to LDS doctrine and it's not like Joseph Smith was like, let me get those books before the

01:34:20

Catholics got around. Let's match that. It was more so When the revelation was given and the father and son appeared to him.

01:34:25

It just the father and the son didn't appear to him If you will take the time to honestly examine all of the information

01:34:35

About the first vision it is historically unreliable There was no revival in upstate

01:34:44

New York in 1820 The churches the closest to where Joseph Smith lived lost members in 1820

01:34:52

They did not gain members the revival that Joseph Smith refers to took place in 1824 not 1820

01:35:00

The development of Joseph Smith's plurality of God doctrine took place long after the writing of the

01:35:09

Book of Mormon in 1830 The changes have been made in the Book of Mormon also points to the reality that Joseph Smith was a modalist at that time

01:35:18

Not a believer in a in a plurality of gods Which he would have had to have been if the first vision had taken place prior to 1830 but it is a

01:35:29

Concept that developed at a much later point in time Mid 1830s at the earliest even when

01:35:37

E .D. Howe writes Mormonism unveiled 1834 1835 It's no reference to it because it wasn't being preached

01:35:44

It is something that develops over time. It is not a historical reality Became very clear a supplement that Jesus Christ.

01:35:50

He was very reverent when he talked about the father Oh, yeah, you never saw him speaking in public as I am equal to the father

01:35:56

Yeah, many people thought he was saying that when he would say well This is the father's doctrine, which is my doctrine and my doctrine is the father

01:36:02

He's emphasizing the idea that they were of one purpose. Yes, and that he was on a mission father and I are one Yeah, father and I are one exactly except when he is like he said on the cross crying out

01:36:11

Abba my father my God It would make no sense to be reverent towards his father and to call out in the moment of desperation to yourself

01:36:20

Yeah to catch that Gentlemen Jesus was not crying out to himself

01:36:25

Christians have never believed that he was crying out to himself You have just demonstrated that you think we're a bunch of modalists.

01:36:31

Now, maybe you've run into a bunch of modalists, but there are Officially only a very small number of modalists.

01:36:37

There are Christians who are ignorant of the Trinity Who will end up sounding modalistic?

01:36:43

There are people who fall into that just out of ignorance But if you're gonna, you know be talking about other denominations other perspectives you might want to do some homework and realize that That is the same level of misguided criticism of the doctrine of Trinity that the

01:37:04

Muslims offer in the majority of instances and that is not What was going on?

01:37:11

Besides that Jesus is quoting from Psalm 22 on the cross when he says Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani and That is the beginning of a messianic

01:37:19

Psalm that ends up in the vindication of the suffering servant, etc, etc. But the point is You need to understand that what the doctrine of Trinity is is not what you say

01:37:28

You say it's three beings who are one being no, it's not there is one being of God eternal

01:37:36

Uncreated and because that being is eternal and uncreated and without limits

01:37:42

That being which is what makes God God can be shared by three persons being in person are not the same thing

01:37:49

You think they are? Being in person are not the same thing There are three persons distinguished from one another each identified by one name in Scripture Yahweh Which we slaughter in English is

01:38:02

Jehovah. So one being of God totally and completely and perfectly shared

01:38:09

By three co -equal co -eternal persons the Father the Son the Holy Spirit They're distinguished from one another each identified as Yahweh.

01:38:18

I know in your theology. That's not true, but we're talking biblically Each is identified in that way.

01:38:23

I don't imagine that to be something that I would do I would call it to someone that I truly love and and and just want to be with right?

01:38:30

I'm not calling up to myself Yeah Also, he's in the Garden of Gethsemane when he's praying and atoning for the sins of the world

01:38:36

He catch that praying and atoning for the sins of the world again. This is an LDS belief

01:38:43

That the atonement begins in the garden is to simply finished on the cross There is nothing in Scripture even remotely relevant to such a concept

01:38:52

But you will catch it when you listen praying to himself.

01:38:57

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah No, he is praying to The father whom he calls

01:39:03

God. Okay, so both these young men now the other fella has also chimed in here

01:39:09

And both of them have no idea what Christians believe On a basic fundamental level, that's a very important to recognize and it's very very common

01:39:20

But it's a major error even say let's say Jesus Christ didn't even know about his mission He grew up as a

01:39:26

Jewish person, right? Yeah, and they believed in praying to God And so I imagine him let's say in the

01:39:31

Garden of Gethsemane praying to God because that was a moment of desperation Yes, so beautiful. Let's say he didn't really know he was just using his

01:39:38

Jewish customs His custom was to revere his one and only God of the Covenant. Yes And to supply him with help and you know, but he did know we do believe that Jesus knew yes

01:39:48

I'm just saying if he didn't know it just shows that he truly was following his cultural norms and also

01:39:53

I think sometimes it ruffles some feathers plus people a little bit of a ditzy do and a woozy wazzle is that we don't play by the

01:40:01

Trinitarian creedal rules. We do our own thing. We're not creedal Christians Yeah, so when people are like you guys are you guys monotheists or polytheists or monolatrists we go

01:40:10

It's not yeah, it's not that it really hurts. Okay, let's let's do some education here.

01:40:15

Okay Why don't you pull that down just a second because I'm gonna reduce I have to use my screen

01:40:23

There we go Guys, let me introduce you to something and I I'll be reading from something on my screen because the fonts a whole lot bigger

01:40:32

But so it's easier on my aging eyes, but let me let me introduce you to a church publication

01:40:40

You could find it in your libraries. I'm sure at your Ward Chapel Stake Center, wherever it might be achieving a celestial marriage student manual

01:40:50

Church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints copyright all of 1992

01:40:57

By corporation of the president of Church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints. Okay, so this is your stuff, right and For many years if you want to be married in the temple

01:41:08

This was the workbook that you had to go through 1992 may sound like a long time ago for you because it was before you were born, but for most of us that was like yesterday and So, let me let me read for you

01:41:25

This is for everybody some really important words from Achieving a celestial marriage student manual pages 4 through 5.

01:41:37

God was once a man who by obedience Advanced to his present state of perfection through obedience and celestial marriage.

01:41:44

We may progress to the point where we become like God Proclaiming the divine potential within man

01:41:50

John Taylor once wrote knowest thou not that thou art a spark of deity struck from the fire of His eternal blaze and brought forth in the midst of everlasting burnings

01:41:58

Elder BH Roberts stated man has descended from God. In fact, he is the same race as the gods

01:42:06

His descent has not been from a lower form of life But from the highest form of life in other words man is in the most literal sense a child of God This is not only true of the spirit of man, but of his body also

01:42:20

Can you see the implications of these two statements as they relate to you and your eternal destiny elder James E Talmadge did he declared in his mortal condition man is

01:42:30

God in embryo however, any individual now immortal being may attain the rank and Sanctity of godship.

01:42:38

That's from the very well -known book articles of faith page 529 How is this possible?

01:42:44

What course of action will bring this potential to fruition as you study this lesson look for the answers to these?

01:42:50

Questions then the sub point points to ponder God became God by obedience to law

01:42:59

It was late afternoon as we sat in my office, but I felt the time had been well spent He sat silently now obviously contemplating the ramifications of the things we had been discussing

01:43:07

We had talked of God of how he had become God and what that meant in terms of our own exaltation notice

01:43:14

God had to be exalted become God. We have to be exalted become a god like God Finally he spoke.

01:43:21

What is this law of exaltation of which you keep speaking? Well, it involves the whole of the gospel law everything required of us by God is associated with this law

01:43:29

But the major crowning point of the law, which man must obey is eternal marriage Therein lies the keys of eternal life or as the

01:43:36

Doctrine and Covenants puts it eternal lives In other words an eternal increase of posterity.

01:43:41

I stop only long enough to once again Emphasize to my Christian audience. You must understand there is a vast vast difference in lexicography

01:43:51

The Mormons speak Mormon ease they use our words We came first they use our words and fill them with completely new meaning

01:44:00

So eternal life becomes eternal lives that is an eternal increase of posterity that is having billions of spirit children in the future

01:44:06

That's not what eternal life is But it is in Mormonism keep that in mind Then what you're saying is that God became

01:44:14

God By obedience to the gospel program which culminates in eternal marriage

01:44:23

Subpoint through obedience to law we can become like our Father in heaven Yes, do you realize the implications of this doctrine as far as you are concerned?

01:44:31

I think so if God became God by obedience to all the gospel law with the crowning point being the celestial law of marriage

01:44:39

Then that's the only way I can become a god Right, and it is the law that assists us in reaching that potential

01:44:46

It tells us what we must do to gain the ultimate freedom In fact, it is by obedience to law that we have progressed to our present position

01:44:52

You mean we have always been governed by law and then here is a tiny little paragraph which once again for my

01:44:58

Christian friends and For my Mormon friends as well. You need to understand. I think this is one of the most important paragraphs in all the

01:45:05

Thousands and thousands of pages of LDS literature in my library or that I've read here.

01:45:11

It is Always you are an eternal being You were never created and you cannot be destroyed, but you can advance progress and develop by obedience

01:45:24

Now to my Christian friends you recognize immediately That is about as devilish a statement as one could ever have

01:45:34

That is spoken with the same Whispered voice

01:45:40

That the serpent used in the garden Now to my Mormon friends, you need to understand

01:45:49

You are not an eternal being You are a created being Says you were never created.

01:45:54

You cannot be destroyed. No you were created and yes, you can be destroyed. In Fact J is said fear him who is able to destroy your body and soul in hell, which is

01:46:04

God not the devil, by the way the entire

01:46:10

Ontology that Mormon teaches Mormonism teaches about God and man is utterly and completely contradictory to the

01:46:19

Bible There is one eternal being God Everything else he created

01:46:27

Everyone else is a created being and is dependent upon him for existence

01:46:34

So keep that in mind. It's very important. There's more I can read here

01:46:40

I was gonna I may come back for the King follow funeral discourse later on but I Want to I want to get to a little bit more of this first and like I said,

01:46:54

I've got some other things I've got One other thing I got to talk about so I'm going to move to another video and Did it yeah this one here and maximize it and now they have a pretty young lady

01:47:12

So now it's three Mormons of I'm not maybe the previous version was just a defective Version because there's only two

01:47:18

Mormons. But anyway, now we got three Mormons and let's let's pick up with their conversation

01:47:23

On the same similar topic be like Heavenly Father in Romans 8 Paul is talking about how we can become heirs of the kingdom of God He specifically says and if children, you know, the

01:47:34

Spirit tells you that we are children of God the spirit The spirit will tell you that we are children of God.

01:47:40

No the spirit that speaks Consistently with what he gave us in Scripture scriptures that he inspired and that he preserved

01:47:53

And that that he directs our hearts to obedience to That spirit has told us that only by faith in Jesus Christ are you children of God?

01:48:07

Not naturally and So you think that just by being born in this world?

01:48:14

That's the demonstration that we are literally the offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother one of his many heavenly mothers his heavenly wives because God is a polygamist, of course in Mormonism Which y 'all didn't mention in that other video, but anyway and so if children if you go back in Romans 8 and Trace that back that children part is not pre -existent children of a

01:48:47

Heavenly Father That is being adopted in the family of God by faith and repentance in Jesus Christ having been a child of wrath having been one who was opposed to God and Then being converted by the gospel

01:49:03

That's what is in Romans 8 Yeah and children then heirs and heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ and if so be that we suffer with him that we

01:49:13

May be also glorified together so Not that we're gonna you know be exactly who the

01:49:19

Savior was but it's saying you that we're going to be a joint heir in The kingdom of God that will be like him one day.

01:49:25

That means you are going to be a perfected human being not a God the

01:49:31

Chasm the ontological chasm that exists between the eternal Unchanging God and what he has made always remains.

01:49:41

He graciously reveals himself. He graciously Conforms us to the image of whom his son

01:49:48

Who entered into human flesh the God man as I said on apology radio yesterday

01:49:54

The gospel is not that men can become gods The gospel is a big God became a man in the person of Christ Jesus one unique event

01:50:02

Not billions and billions and unlimited going the other direction, which is what you have in Mormonism it is so beautiful to me and it also instills lots of Purpose within me, but we're worried about is not worried about what we worship is the fact that God gave us life

01:50:18

God yes earth. God gave us a Savior by which we can be redeemed. Mm -hmm. That's why we worship

01:50:23

God. Yes He is our actually we worship God first and foremost because he's

01:50:30

God and we're not That's one of the things that I said on and you may have found it to be somewhat

01:50:36

Offensive maybe but I don't believe you have a God If you believe what

01:50:42

I read from achieving a celestial marriage that we are gods and embryo the God Men and angels are all the same species.

01:50:49

You don't have a God to worship. You've got a superman You've got a highly exalted

01:50:56

Man, but it's all man and that comes out in your own words When you say that God's purpose is to bring about the exaltation eternal life of man

01:51:08

When you have a God Then the things you talked about in regards to worship and things like that I can understand why worship doesn't make any sense to you because he's just it's an exalted man may have been very nice to you, but You know if if Bill Gates came down and gave you a couple billion dollars

01:51:27

You might be really nice to him too, but he's still just a man. You don't have the

01:51:33

Transcendent God who is worthy of worship in and of himself

01:51:40

Even if he didn't do anything else for you than to bring you into existence According to Romans chapter 1 that's enough to honor him as God and give thanks to him.

01:51:48

I Know you have no foundation for that because You believe the

01:51:54

Book of Mormon doctor was broken Christ And it's not even the Book of Mormon the vast majority of this doctrine as you well Know is not in the

01:51:59

Book of Mormon Joseph Smith did not believe the things that you believe when he wrote the Book of Mormon It is very evolutionary in its

01:52:07

Development creator he is who we look to for guidance. He gives us blessings. He's provided The Word made flesh

01:52:14

Jesus Christ on earth to teach us. We worship God because he is there's no words.

01:52:20

There's not enough Now we actually played part of this yesterday we are nothing without God now, let's let's think this through within Mormonism God was once a man lived under the planet so Would he have once said

01:52:42

I am nothing without a different God and in that previous video?

01:52:50

They likewise had talked about how? They will always Look up to God the

01:52:56

Father Hmm. Okay. So does God the

01:53:01

Father continue to look up to his father before him? And then his father before him and back into that eternal regression.

01:53:07

That is So incoherent in LDS theology Inquiring minds wants to know it is a major major problem with my personal opinion on certain verses that talk about They're not being any gods before God or after a dollar tree.

01:53:26

Yes, because you know There was a big issue in the ancient times Honestly a big issue today of people worshiping and and you know worshiping

01:53:35

God doesn't always mean like you're praying to a statue. Sometimes we worship these kind of gods You know what?

01:53:40

I mean like we're worshiping things and and we know we may not say we're worshiping but we're giving enough attention and then having so Much faith in and looking towards man -made objects.

01:53:49

It becomes this bizarre form of modern idolatry, right? but I believe that the verses that speak about that are

01:53:58

Are pertaining to Let's say it just got really quiet in here. Oh, I feel like it's been quiet all the time has it

01:54:03

Okay, man, just my voice so loud and echoes the verses that speak about they're not being any gods before or after are true because the scriptures pertain to our world and You know the first dispensation to the last so all the knowledge we have in the scriptures pertain to the world

01:54:19

We live in from its beginning to now Okay, so so This is the standard

01:54:26

Mormon way to get around the fact that the Bible directly contradicts the claims of Joseph Smith Well, we need to limit what the

01:54:32

Bible is saying to just this world see well or maybe just this universe

01:54:38

Because maybe there's other universes what we don't really know But actually we say that Jesus was a

01:54:43

God and the Holy Spirit is God So we actually have three gods But there's only one God for this world because the

01:54:50

Bible says there is only one because Isaiah for you didn't before me There was no God formed and there will be none after me

01:54:57

But what was really being said was before me There was no

01:55:02

God formed for this world or this universe and there will be none formed after me for this world or this universe

01:55:10

Or just for Kolob or or whatever. This is not What Isaiah was talking about or Jeremiah was talking about or anyone in the scriptures had any concept of any of this and you just have to believe that well, you know as long as Joseph Smith said it and Yet Joseph Smith was as ignorant as the day is long of the content of Scripture He made so many errors in what he said about the original languages

01:55:40

He didn't even know the original languages he pretended to but just check out the book of Abraham sometime And you'll get a really good idea of just how good he was in original languages but as I pointed out in responding to this on Apologia yesterday

01:55:54

If your God according to Jeremiah chapter 10 if your God did not create the heavens and the earth your

01:55:59

God will vanish will perish from under the heavens and from the earth and Your God didn't your

01:56:05

God organizes you guys use the word create. I think you need to be more careful about that Because Joseph Smith was very very careful to describe

01:56:15

Organization of pre -existing matter. That's not the same thing as creation if you want to communicate with us.

01:56:20

Anyways, um, you know, maybe Maybe you don't I don't know but that's something to keep in mind Yeah, look at that time

01:56:28

I Know I'm sorry. I've been making rich sit out there for nearly two hours now, and we're getting a little long

01:56:38

So I'm gonna I'm gonna continue. I'm gonna try to kid. Let's let's bring the the nice young Mormon kids down And we'll continue on because there's there's a heavenly mother video.

01:56:50

I want to get to too So I'll just sort of make a note as to how far I got in that one and we'll we'll pick that one up a little

01:56:56

Bit later on there was only one other thing. I wanted to get to Too much to the chagrin of the vast majority of the

01:57:03

Twitter verse Jeff the GK is back and Oh And that has brought good old brother camp back as well.

01:57:14

I guess they've done some sort of a Webcast and it's it's back to the the issue of Interfaith dialogue and all the rest that kind of stuff and what

01:57:28

I didn't realize was that while I was getting ready to Get in here and do this program and get things queued up and and all the rest of stuff a

01:57:43

Thread developed in in Twitter. And yes, you can hear me slowly getting back to it here

01:57:49

Where someone had looked up? Yasser Cotty's Twitter address and had thrown it in and So he became tagged

01:58:01

In what was being said and what I want to point you to is a

01:58:10

Couple things first of all both brother camp and brother

01:58:16

Jeff Think that as long as you Hit the right points in a tweet then

01:58:25

You've done what you needed to do. You've now witnessed to Yasser Cotty So that's what they that was part of what was going on here is that's they were doing is they were witnessing to To Yasser Cotty make sure that he knows as if he

01:58:42

I mean part of this is so incredibly disrespectful They don't have any idea who he is

01:58:48

They're not doing any type of inter interaction with them. They're not preparing any of this material

01:58:54

So that would actually be understandable to someone in dr. Cotty's position It's extremely disrespectful.

01:59:00

And and all you got to do is read some of the stuff that that Steve has posted today and you'll see the purpose is offense not not in any way really to present anything that would be heard by dr.

01:59:13

Cotty, but but dr. Cotty actually Responded and I wanted to to read this

01:59:22

He Saw what was being said and he said I typically don't respond to such issues and forgive me if I don't continue

01:59:32

But everyone in our mosque got the point That dr. Oakley, that's my my twitter handle.

01:59:40

Dr. Oakley 1689 Was making and he made it with tact and wisdom.

01:59:47

I Presume someone of your inclination would have given the same message in a blunter way

01:59:55

The fact that he followed a better route according to both Jesus methodology and common sense

02:00:01

Seems to irritate you But his message was clear. The only way to salvation is through Jesus.

02:00:07

That's his view and us Muslims respectfully disagree Can we live in peace now? that was his response and Of course that was followed then by well, you need to know this this this and this as if Dr.

02:00:22

Cotty doesn't know those things and as if just throwing them out there is somehow going to ring true if you don't show

02:00:36

Respect for the person you're talking to as a human being don't expect them to hear your words

02:00:44

We all know this in other contexts, but it just seems there are certain people who because of the current situation in our world forget that Muslims are human beings and You know,

02:01:02

I'm not gonna talk about things that have happened since last year doors that have been opened

02:01:09

Possibilities relationships that have have developed where you could could actually be able to for once be able to demonstrate

02:01:17

To the Muslim people to individual Muslims themselves that you actually care enough to accurately represent them to show them respect as human beings you know, the gospel is directed to human beings and And Unfortunately, especially

02:01:38

Steve Camp Thinks that one of the best ways of dealing with Mormon Mormons Muslims That's that is the danger of talking about both

02:01:48

Mormonism and Islam at this in the same program that one of the best ways to you know, just get them to see the truth is to Refer to their pedophile prophet now,

02:02:06

I would think That if Steve sat back and thought just a little bit

02:02:14

About people approaching him and What might?

02:02:21

Help their message get through to him that he might recognizing that using that kind of language

02:02:30

Demonstrates that you have no interest whatsoever in actually talking to the other person you are talking at them and You haven't done any serious reflection upon not only methodology, but upon the content of what it is that you're saying and especially when you're talking to an

02:02:56

Islamic scholar and Who has done? Countless hours countless hours of lectures on the life of Muhammad I Have not listened to everything the

02:03:11

Yasir Qadhi has done on that but Yasir Qadhi will tell you that he knows I have listened to many hours of his lectures not only on Muhammad I Listened to all of Hamza Yusuf series and and I've listened to Yasir Qadhi and I've listened to Bunch of Yasir Qadhi's lectures on the

02:03:32

Sahaba. So those that were around Muhammad Don't you think that maybe just just possibly

02:03:39

I? might have a little more of an opportunity to say something meaningful to Yasir Qadhi When I've actually taken the time to respect him as a human being and to know what he believes then someone on Twitter Who decides in their first or second tweet to use that kind of language

02:04:02

Without ever having listened to a word. The man has to say outside of the dialogue that we had last year.

02:04:09

I Mean, I know I'm I'm I'm stating what is painfully obvious here painfully obvious but that's what that's what happened four hours ago and We've been on the air for two hours.

02:04:24

So just two hours before the program started That's what was going on on Twitter you can you can see it, you know, it's at this point

02:04:35

But it It allowed it these guys set it up so that dr.

02:04:46

Qadhi by just simply being a thoughtful person could make them look horrific and make their presentation of Truths a without a context without preparation and hence well to use biblical language a clanging gong

02:05:12

Not the beautiful music of the gospel, but just I'm gonna get you.

02:05:18

I'm gonna tell you there is a reason why

02:05:26

Dr. Qadhi and I's dialogue last year had a very different reception outside the

02:05:34

United States and especially amongst people who just They don't live their lives in social media.

02:05:40

They actually live their lives in real world They had a very different view of it than many of those who are keyboard warriors, and there's a reason for that There's a reason for that so Anyway, I obviously have not read what has happened over the past two hours.

02:05:58

I may multitask fairly well, but reading Twitter and Responding to Andy Stanley at the same time a little bit beyond my capacities

02:06:10

So we didn't do that. So I don't even know if I'm gonna take the time to look to be pretty honest with you then sometimes it's just really

02:06:20

All that again, yeah, no I'm sorry Yeah.

02:06:26

Yeah. Yeah But I did find that absolutely absolutely fascinating. So we have covered a lot today

02:06:34

We spent a great deal of time on the Andy Stanley issue, but we also wanted to Shout out give a shout out to our three

02:06:42

Mormon friends We're gonna continue looking at some of their material We want to make sure that if you know,

02:06:49

I don't know if they're gonna have any interest whatsoever in dialoguing having some type of interaction but Important to be

02:07:00

Accurate in what we're saying on those those matters as well as when dealing with our

02:07:05

Muslim friends as well So over two hours on the program today a ultra mega edition of the dividing line on a

02:07:14

Friday No, no less I Gotta get home and get a nap before the grandkids show up because something tells me they're gonna keep us busy this evening