Gays in the Military? Then More from George Bryson

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. Hey, good morning. Welcome to The Dividing Line at 11 a .m.

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It's still 11 a .m. We are exactly on time, and if you've been waiting around for an hour...

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I have a question about a Clinton -era policy that is coming under renewed scrutiny amidst fears of future

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U .S. troop shortages. General Peter Pace said the Pentagon should not condone immoral behavior by allowing gay soldiers to serve openly.

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He said his views were based on his personal upbringing, in which he was taught that certain types of conduct are immoral.

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Quote, I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts.

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End quote, Pace said in a wide -ranging discussion with Tribune editors and reporters in Chicago.

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I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is okay to be immoral in any way.

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As an individual, I would not want acceptance of gay behavior to be our policy, just like I would not want to be our policy that if we were to find out that so -and -so was sleeping with somebody else's wife, that we would just look the other way, which we do not.

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We prosecute that kind of immoral behavior, Pace said. Well, the very first story on the

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Today Show this morning was General Peter Pace has stepped in it.

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He has ignited a firestorm of criticism for having morals.

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No, it's not for having morals. It's for having the wrong morals. We need to realize, folks, as we live in a society where there are people who are always yelling and screaming about not judging.

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Don't judge anyone else. Let everyone be themselves. But what they mean by that is adopt our morals, accept our morals, which are directly opposite that of the scriptures, the

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Bible, the very foundations of the society in which we live. Adopt them and them only.

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Be tolerant only of those that we say to be tolerant of and behaviors we say to be tolerant of.

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There is nothing more except only our morals or we will attack you vociferously.

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Their morals are the only morals. But if you say that this is a morals issue, they'll deny it's a morals issue to begin with.

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The irrationality of the pro -homosexual crowd and especially those who use that tiny minority, that 2 .5

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to 3 percent of the population as their club to beat everyone else over the head with, especially since they tend to have money because they don't have kids.

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Those individuals are leading the cultural revolution. And for all intents and purposes, as far as I can see, the battle lines are not drawn.

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There's no one on the battle lines. That revolution is already over. Hearing this kind of absolutely irrational diatribes on the part of pro -homosexual activists and people on the left in our society reminds us that freedom of speech has already been undermined in Western democracies.

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Though we say that it is one of our most precious freedoms, the existence of hate crimes legislation and the utilization of that hate crimes legislation in Europe, Australia and Canada.

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And I guess I'll throw the United Kingdom in there so my British friends will recognize I distinguished between them and Europe because Europe doesn't want them and they don't want

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Europe either. But anyway, in those Western societies, the existence of hate crimes legislation and the fact that that is being promoted in our own society as well is the means that these individuals will use to destroy the freedom of Christians to speak

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God's truth to the issue of homosexuality. Homosexuals do not want equal rights.

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Homosexuals want Uber rights. They want rights that trump everyone else's. They know that what they do is sinful.

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They still have a conscience that's in there, no matter how often they bash it down.

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And therefore, they are putting out such tremendous energy to suppress their own consciences that to have anyone else speak out and remind them of what they are suppressing within themselves infuriates them.

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And with the zeal of of a medieval inquisitor, with the zeal of a medieval crusader, they will not give up until the other side is silenced by the power of law.

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They will not give up. And as long as society continues to do what society is doing, look at the

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Emmys, look at the Oscars, look at all that Hollywood does in pandering to this small minority based upon sexual behavior, not based upon race, not based upon class, but based upon chosen sexual behavior.

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As long as they continue to do that, they will be successful. They will be successful.

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I am thankful for General Peter Pace and his willingness to say what he said. I saw a quote from Martin Luther, and he was speaking of how we should be thankful for godly military people who protect us from our enemies and allow us to worship

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God. And just Wednesday night, my fellow elder at church, in his prayer, was praying about being thankful for the military that defends us against our enemies.

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And I know that there are wishy -washy people on the left who can't figure out what the

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New Testament says about the resurrection of Christ and the centrality of the cross, but they can figure out that we should all be a bunch of pacifists and that the military is evil.

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Can't figure that one out. But the fact is, we have the freedoms that we have to proclaim the gospel and to minister the word and to do the kinds of studies that we're doing and produce the materials we're doing because we live in a free country and there are many, many, many, many, many people who would like to destroy those freedoms, both outside of our country and inside of our country, sadly.

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And so, those individuals are, you know, when we have folks like Peter Pace, and I don't know what his background is,

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I don't know what his religious upbringing is, he could be a Mormon, he could be a Roman Catholic, I don't care. What he said about the subject of homosexuality is true.

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He's giving voice to the reality that if you accept the

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Bible as having any normative voice in human behavior, what he said was true.

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And there are people that do not believe you should have any voice in politics, in the military, you should have no voice in the society at all, unless you get your morals from Charles Darwin.

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Those are the only people from that perspective that have any right to say anything. Ask Dawkins about that.

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So, I don't know what we can do to support this man and to express our thanks for his service and his willingness to speak the truth.

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He is certainly not alone. I know many good Christian men in the military, serving in Iraq, Afghanistan, all across the world.

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I wish I had more time to correspond with them than I do. And if they're listening, you know who you are. I've got some good

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Marine Colonel friends out there. And they're wonderful people, and I cannot help but feel for them as they look at what happens within our society.

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What in the world are they defending when people are willing to engage this kind of behavior in our own society and to attack this man for what he says?

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Thankfully, I also read stories today about the fact that General Pace will not apologize for his remarks.

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Thank goodness for that. We have Luis Vizcaino, spokesman for the gay rights group

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Human Rights Campaign. Don't you love that? Human Rights Campaign. What a crock. What absolute disgusting misuse of language.

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Human Rights Campaign. This fellow said that Pace's comments were insulting and offensive to the men and women who are serving in the military honorably.

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So I guess that means we shouldn't talk about those who are sleeping around with other men's wives or vice versa.

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See, that statement means nothing. What do you mean it's offensive? The only reason it could be offensive is if it's untrue.

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What you're offended by, sir, is that this man has morals and those morals are different than yours.

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At least he has an objective standard for his morals, which you do not. That's what you're offended at.

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We really need to speak out while we still have the right to do so. How long is it going to be before a webcast like this has to go underground?

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Have to basically learn from the pornographers how to hide your

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IP addresses and skip around. How long before that's going to happen? You know there are people right now who would do anything to shut down my voice and the voice of people like me.

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They would do anything. And if there was a legal way to do it, they'd do it. They'd do it in a heartbeat. They'd do it in a heartbeat, and you know it.

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And you really have to wonder what's going to happen after 2008 when they have many willing accomplices in high places of authority.

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And they wouldn't think twice about our human rights. Oh no, of course not. Of course not. Not at all. There is not an ounce of rationality in these folks, and that's why they cannot debate.

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When you see them run into somebody, and we've videotaped this happening, when you see them run into someone who can debate, who can think rationally, who has thought through the issues, they melt down.

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They just start yelling and screaming because that's all they can do. That's all they have. That's all they've got.

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So that was the first thing I saw this morning, and I was reminded once again, we still have our rights to speak and to speak clearly, and we need to take them.

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All right, having said that, and we certainly have addressed the issue of homosexuality.

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I've preached on it at the Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church. I've debated on it twice, and I normally don't get into issues of winning and losing debates, but there isn't any question that in both, all three debates that I've done, there's actually a third debate, which

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I don't know, do we even have the audio of the Salt Lake one? Not yet. I've got it real close to getting it out there.

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No, the Salt Lake one. Yes, I had to set it. I was just before the Spong debate happened.

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I was almost ready to start processing some stuff. The Gay Pastor one? Yes. Oh, okay. Yes, so it's soon.

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It's very soon. Okay, all right. Well, hopefully now that we have doors that are basically impregnable and stuff like that, you can –

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Yeah, if I'm not having to run around nailing doors shut and – Painting and – Negotiating with companies that make promises of one day and deliver three weeks later, stuff like that.

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I can do a lot of other things. Yeah, we've got a lot of stuff we need to get out. We need to get out the ship debate by the time the book comes out because I quote it.

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I quote it in the book, so we need to get that stuff out. But anyway, we've got all this stuff that we need to be putting out there, but in all three debates, because there is a third debate

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I did, we've got Barry Lynn, we've got John Shelby Spong. Don't get much bigger names than those. And then – do you remember the guy's name?

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It's on top of my head. I bet you, tired of New Jersey, will remember who it was. He was there. But there is a homosexual, quote -unquote, pastor, former

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Mormon in Salt Lake City that I debated at the University of Utah.

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No, yes, University of Utah. Yeah, I was at the U of U, and he was part of the Metropolitan Church.

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D. Bradshaw, thank you. Thank you, tired of New Jersey. D is his actual first name, D -E -E. D -E -E, yes.

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D. Bradshaw. Yep. And so we've done three debates, and there isn't any question here.

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I mean, you know, sometimes – we've got people all upset right now because I'm posting clips from the Syngenis debate on the mass, where he was just Dr.

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Nasty, man. I mean, he just set new records for being as unpleasant a man as you could possibly be.

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And so, you know, there's this one fellow on YouTube that is setting up a camera in his bedroom to try to give responses, and he keeps forgetting he's got plastic in front of it, and, oh, it's great stuff.

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You may be wondering why I am doing this video, but –

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Rich, you're going to get us in trouble. Turn that microphone off. All right, man, I tell you. But we've got some folks saying, well, he just lost that debate so terribly.

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Okay, you know, I'll let the Philporvosnics of the world run around and do their little scientific analyses of how many of the debates

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I've won with Roman Catholics. When it comes to the issue of homosexuality, I am 3 -0, man.

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I mean, it wasn't even close in any one of them. I mean, it wasn't – it's just, you know, there's no question anywhere along the lines.

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I don't believe that anybody, unless you were slipping a money under the table, could ever come up with anything other than the fact that they just can't debate.

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They've got no grounds to do it. And so, anyway, oh, my goodness.

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Anyways, let's go to the website. Yes, go to the website. Well, you're at the website if you're listening live right now. And if you're not listening live right now and you're listening within a short period of time, at least in the spring of 2007 anyway, you might want to go to the entries for the 13th of March 2007 under the title

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For Use on Today's DL, More Tomb Errors. I've got a lot of YouTube stuff.

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I've got people trying to make me feel guilty for crashing the internet, okay? They're saying that I especially am crashing the internet by posting all this

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YouTube stuff. And, hey, you know, I feel badly that the 13 primary internet servers are bogging down because of YouTube.

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But I'm not the one putting so much inane stuff up there. At least what I'm putting up there

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I interact with. It's for my debates. You know, I imagine someone's going to complain bitterly about all that someday and I'm going to get bounced and then we'll have to put them on our own server.

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But, hey, whatever. As long as I can do it, I'm going to keep doing it because people enjoy it and they go, wow, we live in a visually oriented society.

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When you can see it, it's a whole lot more powerful to most people than just reading it.

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Sadly, I mean, let's face it, I know that that's what we're facing. And I try to call people, you know, a little bit higher level.

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But still, the fact of the matter is, if they can see it, it's going to hit harder. So if you'll look at that particular one,

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I'm going to be playing the audio. I'll be playing it through my computer here. Obviously, if you fire that up at the same time

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I'm firing mine up, it's going to sound really goofy. But at some point you'll want to listen and watch the presentation.

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I want you to watch the presentation, too, because part of the appeal of the tomb movie, The Lost Tomb of Jesus, was the recreations that are presented.

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And here you've got the crucifixion, even. And you've got Mary Magdalene and Judah at the foot of the cross and all the rest of the stuff.

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And sadly for many people, men and women alike, but let's be honest, folks, especially for ladies, that's a very powerful image that frequently overrides the logic circuits just a little bit.

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A little boy crying. Mommy, you know, crying out, Abba, Abba. Daddy, Daddy.

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And Mommy, you know, wow, that would have been special. I would have liked that.

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Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's exactly where it's going. So let's listen to what

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I did here. I focused in on the John 19 stuff.

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And before we look at that, John 19, Therefore the soldiers did these things, but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, that would be

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Mary, and his mother's sister, then Mary, the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

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And there's all sorts of questions about how many Marys there are here. And I have certainly, one thing I have certainly learned, is to be very thankful for the external information that is available.

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I'm writing a review right now, and I'm really enjoying it, of Richard Balcombe's G .S. and the Eyewitnesses. This is really a good book.

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This is saying in, how many pages, 400, almost 500, yeah, over 500 pages, 533 pages, from a world -recognized scholar.

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This is saying and documenting what I've been trying to say, and I started to say, in response to the

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Fleming stuff. He focuses in upon that, what he calls that silent period between the life of Jesus and Paul's all we've got there.

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That's not true. And Balcombe, who is so many light years beyond Fleming and his gang, this

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I am funny, just ransacks the literature. I mean, this guy is just a tremendous scholar.

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And he goes through the name issues.

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That was, most of us don't have access to some of the resources he was using, but he provides a lot of the very same information on the name stuff that we're dealing with, with the tomb issue.

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And the fact that almost a quarter of all the names was Mary is reflected in the

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New Testament. I mean, we didn't know this until just recently. I mean, there was no way in the 1800s, in the 1800s, people look at that and go, that looks really silly.

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Well, now here we are, and we're digging all this stuff up. And guess what? The percentages we're finding in other forms of documentation, and not just ossuaries, but sometimes there'd be inscriptions on an entire tomb, for example, and in documents.

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The numbers are the same. The percentages are the same. And people thought, well, it's really weird. It's all these Mary's, man.

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I mean, what was so big about it? But that was the most popular name. And here, archaeology, digging this up, doesn't prove the

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Bible's true, but it's demonstrating the consistency between what the Bible says and what we're finding in history.

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And so here you have, Jesus' mother is there. Mary Magdalene is there.

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Now, Mary Magdalene is not referenced all that often in the New Testament. I'm sorry. And that's why the

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Gnostics glommed onto her. That's why the Gnostics... What the Gnostics would do... We're not told a lot about Judas, either.

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And so what do they do? They write a whole gospel about Judas. They would take people where there's not a lot of information, given in the

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New Testament, and to create myths to support their side, they take those individuals and they fill those individuals with an ahistorical, fictionalized personality.

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That's what the Acts of Philip is all about, as well. These are not historical documents.

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They don't come from 1st century Palestine. The Gospel of Thomas comes from 165 years

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A .D. And the Acts of Philip, from farther than that, after the

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Council of Nicaea, toward the end of the 4th century, is the most logical context where this would be written.

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We can place it there, because we know there are conflicts going on. Well, anyways, I'm getting into all sorts of stuff that I'm supposed to be doing for the book, and there's just so much neat stuff.

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And it has definitely been good for me to be studying this stuff, because, once again, as in so many other times, you get hit with a challenge, and it's utilizing stuff maybe you've never even heard of before.

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How many people had ever even heard of the Acts of Philip? I knew the Gospel of Philip, but the Acts of Philip? I mean, there's like three manuscripts, grand total, and they differ from one another massively.

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And who knew what an encritite community was? I mean, this is veggie tales from the ancient world, okay?

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I mean, literally, they're vegetarians. They don't drink wine, they don't use meat, and they don't marry and have kids, which is why they didn't last very long.

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I think the tomato eats meat. Does the tomato eat meat? Bob the Tomato? I think he does. Oh, really? Have you seen him with a cheeseburger or something like that?

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Well, he sings a song about a cheeseburger. Well, there you go. See, now, if he was a true encritite, there's no way he would ever sing a song about cheeseburgers.

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How? You know, I was going on... Wait a minute, maybe that was Larry. Here I am, sitting here, with this high scholarly book, and within 30 seconds,

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Rich, we're in veggie tales and cheeseburgers. I mean, how did this happen?

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I can't keep control of things. But anyway, we have fun.

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Alright, so, how did we get here? Oh, yes, the many Marys. So, the

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Gospel of John has both Mary and Mary Magdalene at the cross.

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When Jesus then saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother,

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Woman, behold your son. Then he said to the disciple, Behold your mother. From that hour, the disciple took her into his own household.

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Please notice something. The disciple has a household. This is not a child.

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And can you imagine as you're undergoing suffocation, that's how you die in crucifixion, blood loss and suffocation.

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But primarily suffocation. You can't keep pushing yourself up to get any air. You die of suffocation over time.

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Exhaustion and suffocation. Can you imagine in the midst of that, looking at your wife and your kid and going,

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Hey, kid, that's your mom. Mom, that's your son. Brilliant. Hello.

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From that hour, they weren't together before that? The inanity of this stuff is enough to just make you want to scream and yet it is being presented.

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So, let's listen to what it says. Here's a clip from the lost tomb of Jesus.

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If Judah was their son, his existence would most certainly have been kept secret.

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Since Jesus was perceived to be a pretender to the royal throne, Jesus' son would have been a target of arrest and crucifixion by Roman authorities.

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It was a time of great persecution. Anyone associated with Jesus' ministry was threatened.

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His cousin, John the Baptist, beheaded. James, the brother of Jesus, stoned to death.

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Simon, another brother, crucified. If they were parents,

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Jesus and Mary would have known that leaking knowledge of the birth of their child would have put the child at terrible risk.

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So perhaps the unnamed beloved disciple referred to in the book of John is actually the son of Jesus.

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Who remains unnamed in the text to conceal the child's lineage. In John 19, 26,

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Jesus asks the beloved disciple at the base of the cross to behold his mother.

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He then says to Mary, Woman, behold your son.

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Traditionally, this scene has been understood as Jesus addressing Mary, his mother.

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Can this be later theology? Could it be that Jesus was talking to Mary Magdalene, his wife, asking her to protect their sons?

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So there you go. Again, powerfully portrayed, but just so silly, it is really hard to know where to start.

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Not only can they... They've got John the Baptist getting beheaded because of his association with Jesus. That's not why he was beheaded, of course.

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He was beheaded before the cross, and it was for preaching against incest. We all know what that was about.

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So they're mixing all sorts of stuff up. The chronology, the anachronisms in this stuff is just beyond imagination.

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I'm reminded that Simcha Jakubowicz at the beginning of the book talks about the fact that he didn't even know that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

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He had never heard that before. We're not talking... I can excuse some of those folks.

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Cameron, Jakubowicz, they don't know what they're talking about. They have no biblical knowledge at all. But people like James Tabor, these folks are mercenaries.

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They're hired guns. That's all... Whatever's the new theory, he's chasing it.

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That just makes me ill. It really does. It's a form of...

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I better be careful. Anyway, it's bad stuff. But the main thing is this.

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If you watch that clip, if news of their son leaked out, and they've got this guy sneaking around the corner, watching and observing, and in the marketplace, there's a

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Roman soldier coming, and so Mary Magdalene, blah, blah, blah, hides

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Judah, and the soldier walks right by, and there's this conspiracy, and the

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Roman soldiers are everywhere. Then, at the cross... Historically, the

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Roman soldiers, after they crucified someone, stayed nearby. We know, from the gospel accounts, this is the case, because they're engaged in the mockery, and they're casting dice for the personal belongings of the criminals, and there's another reason why they stayed by.

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Because if they didn't, the families would take the people down and try to save their lives.

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Hello? This is sort of obvious. This is real basic. And so, can you imagine, in the midst of this, well, we don't want anybody to know who

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Jesus is, his son is. Can you imagine, in the midst of that, with Roman soldiers standing right there,

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Jesus addresses his wife and his son in front of the

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Roman soldiers. Oh, that's brilliant. And that's within, what, 30 seconds of the presentation of hiding in the marketplace?

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I just... I don't know. I watch this stuff, and it's very difficult, at this point, to not just truly mock that, because that's just dumb.

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And notice there is not a single reference to any other historical source.

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You're not going to the Acts of Philip, because it says nothing about these things. It's not a historical document. It doesn't even address this stuff.

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This is pure science fiction. It has no historical validity at all.

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But then we have to sit there and watch Simcha Jakubowicz and James Table. We, you know, we... We're just reporting the facts.

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I tried to shoot this theory down at every point. Yeah, we're right.

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877 -753 -3341. We're going to take our break, and then we will be right back.

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What has happened to this sacred duty in our day? The charges are as follows. Prostitution, using the

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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning

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where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

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And welcome back to the dividing line. I might as well go ahead and look at the second one. Right below the clip I just played,

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I quoted, at least from the Vatican Greek version of the

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Acts of Philip. I can just see Gail Ripley going VATICAN! And a whole new book was just written.

35:00

I knew it! I knew it! There's the proof right there. The Vatican Greek manuscript,

35:06

I think it's number 824 of the Acts of Philip 1924 translation, verses 137 and 138, which says,

35:15

And the Lord said, Since you have been unforgiving and wrathful, you shall indeed die in glory and be taken by angels to Paradise, but shall remain outside forty days in fear of the flaming sword, and then

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I will send Michael and he shall let you in. And Bartholomew shall go to Lyconia and be crucified there, and Mariamne's body shall be laid up in the river

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Jordan. And I shall bring back those who have been swallowed up. And he drew a cross in the air, reaching down into the abyss, and it was filled with light, and the cross was like a ladder.

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And Jesus called the people, and they all came up, save the proconsul and the viper. And seeing the apostles, they mourned and repented.

35:53

Okay, this is you know, again, great stuff, but notice the statement that Mariamne, her body shall be laid up in the river

36:03

Jordan. So Mariamne is going to die in the river Jordan, or be buried in the river Jordan, or something along those lines.

36:11

Keep that in mind as we listen to this clip from the tomb film.

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And remember, these are just journalists reporting the facts, folks. It's only

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Christians, it's only the Gospel writers who change things, okay? They're the only ones that stretch anything, alright?

36:31

I mean, these, you have to accept what a reporter says when he says he's a journalist.

36:37

And remember, Simcha Jakubowicz met Ted Koppel when he got a journalism award, and so he has an award as a journalist, so therefore, there can be no bias in anything that he has to say.

36:50

However, in the Acts of Philip, written in the 4th century, the oldest known account of Mary Magdalene's travels, she does not die in France.

37:04

According to the Acts of Philip, at the end of the story, Mariamne is said, supposed to go home to Israel, to the

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Jordan Valley, and the author has an allusion that where she would die, and be buried.

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The Acts of Philip clearly tell us that Mary Magdalene, Jesus' most trusted apostle, dies here, in Jerusalem.

37:34

Now, you hear that? Did you hear that? The Acts of Philip clearly tell us that Mary Magdalene will die here, and the picture is, of course, of Jerusalem.

37:49

The reality is, the Acts of Philip never mention Mary Magdalene. The term

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Magdala never appears in the Greek text of any version of the Acts of Philip.

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I have written to François Bovan, who you just heard being interviewed there, only a third of what he said, and he has confirmed, as the world's leading expert on the

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Greek text of the Acts of Philip, that Magdala never appears there, and his identification of Mariamne with Mary Magdalene is on a literary level, not a historical level.

38:22

I'm sure he explained that to the producers of the film, but they either didn't understand or just, you know, it doesn't really fit with our theory there, so we take it out.

38:31

But, even if all that is, does the

38:37

Jordan flow through the middle of Jerusalem? No, it's a full day's journey away, about 20 miles.

38:45

So, now, all of a sudden, not only is Mariamne Mary Magdalene, but Jerusalem becomes the

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Jordan River! Hey! When you can spin stuff like that, and just make up connections out of thin air, and move entire geographical sites 20 miles just on a whim, you can come up with anything!

39:07

You can come up with absolutely, positively anything, and that's exactly what they've done.

39:17

It's just... You know, when you've been spending hours every day, you know, your whole train of thought, you know,

39:30

I've got piles of paper in the other room, photocopies from books, you know, the

39:37

Greek of the Acts of Philip, and emails with Francois Bovon, and Carnie Matheson up in Canada, Thunder Bay, that's where the real

39:48

Canadians live, and you've just, you've been digging into this stuff, and you've been checking facts, and the cavalier attitude they have, but then just to hear them, we're just reporting the facts, we're just telling you all scholars agree with us!

40:08

And you just... Deep breath, isometric exercises, take a phone call, we'll be better, let's talk with Jeff.

40:21

Hi Jeff, how you doing? Hi Dr. Way, how you been? I'm keeping really, really busy, how about you?

40:26

Well, I'm busy, but doing different stuff, and I actually got to talk to Karen King last week.

40:32

You did! I did a lot of preparation, I used you as my debate guide, although I wasn't in debate,

40:38

I just got to ask a question. Now, no one, you need to realize that less than 1 % of the audience has a clue who

40:46

Karen King is. It's at least 50 % of this audience. I don't know! I don't know,

40:53

I think I'll ask everybody in the channel, everybody, and I'll ask Rich to join the sample here, everyone who knows who

41:00

Karen King is, put up your hand. Rich, I had you order her book.

41:09

Clearly a memorable name. Well, you know, what can I say? Well, let me give it,

41:15

Lane Pagels was supposed to have shown up, but she had the flu, so she only

41:21

Karen King showed up, so we were kind of thrown for a loop, but we were able to, she made a joke,

41:27

I think, at the expense of the Jesus tomb thing. Oh, I want to hear about it. Well, if you can, repeat it.

41:35

Just the gist of it was, she's like, and I'm not going to even get into the tomb thing, and everybody laughed, because she was just talking about the different Gnostic stuff throughout the entire evening.

41:49

Well, she is referenced in the book. Oh, she is referenced in the book? Yes, yes, yes. She's thrown in at one point with Francois Bovan.

41:58

I attempted to get her to disavow the National Geographic advertising, because I'm like, she basically, she's less subdued than Elaine Pagels, in what she's willing to come out with and say, like to say, oh, this overturns.

42:13

Elaine Pagels is very much like, oh, we have no idea who wrote the Gospels and that sort of thing, but she,

42:20

Karen King is less than, I don't want to say bombastic, but she's less prone to make big statements like that.

42:28

So I kind of asked her, you know, I went over how the Apostolic Fathers kind of testified to who wrote

42:36

Tradition and that sort of thing. And so, given the fact that we know that Gospel of Judas doesn't have a connection to the

42:45

Apostles, why the advertising that it overturned Christianity? And I said, I know you might not want to bite the hand that feeds you, but, you know, here you go.

42:55

And she kind of was like, yeah, I wasn't really involved in the advertising, and then she kind of moved on.

43:03

Yes, yes. And I can understand why. I would love to ask her if she's looked at Balcombe's Judas and the

43:09

Eyewitnesses. It's going to be interesting to see if those... Is that worth getting the book? It is most definitely worth getting it.

43:17

I have a friend who is a librarian for Jews for Jesus, and he was saying that the book was very good.

43:23

He was reading it. Really, what it is, is I tried very briefly to enunciate the idea that...

43:34

Well, here, let me just read you a real quick quote here. I have it at hand, and with my handy -dandy marker here.

43:41

This is right at the beginning. What I like is he sort of gives you a little bit of a summary up front before you hit the hard stuff.

43:49

He says, quote, pages 6 and 7. In general, I shall be arguing in this book that the

43:54

Gospel texts are much closer to the form in which the eyewitnesses told their stories or passed on their traditions than is commonly envisaged in current scholarship.

44:04

Page 7. Part of my intention in this book is to present evidence, much of it not hitherto noticed at all, that makes the personal link of the

44:13

Jesus tradition with particular troddence troddence is a term that means someone who passes on knowledge or tradition, throughout the period of the transmission of the tradition down to the writing of the

44:25

Gospels. If not historically undeniable, then at least historically very probable. The Gospels are written within living memory of the events they recount.

44:33

Mark's Gospel is written well within the lifetime of many of the eyewitnesses, while the other three canonical Gospels were written in the period when living eyewitnesses were becoming scarce exactly the point in time when their testimony would perish with them were it not put into writing.

44:45

Now, he's going with, he's not going with an unusually early dating.

44:50

He's going with the standard accepted dating, but what he's saying is you don't have this anonymous tradition just floating around.

44:58

You have eyewitnesses who are still in the community and they're still active and they're still vital and so you have this living and viable and historically reliable connection that goes from the events to the writing.

45:13

You don't have this, he's really going after the very foundation of the form critics criticism of the

45:20

Gospels. And like I said, it's over 500 pages long, just ransacks the literature.

45:25

It's filled with references and things like that. So, yeah, I think it's sort of I don't have to go on my

45:32

Amazon wish list. Oh, yes, most definitely. Well, I hate to tell you this, but I actually have two copies of it here and some of it gets sent things and stuff like that.

45:43

I know I'm diverting far from the reason for my call, but I'm definitely going to let you know you've been very valuable in the last month or so and I'm definitely going to be sending a donation your way.

45:55

Hopefully you can use it to take a mental health day around mid -April. Now, wait a minute.

46:01

He wasn't valuable before that? He was, but he's been especially useful.

46:06

You've finally breached the mark. I got there. Rich, turn that microphone off.

46:13

Somebody out there in the studio audience, get Rich away from the microphone. He had way too much coffee this morning, so ignore him,

46:19

Jeff. Don't worry about him. The reason for my call, I saw something

46:27

Someone had mentioned C. Gordon Olson. Yes. I wanted to put this on your radar screen if you haven't heard of this already.

46:35

He is in a new book or a relatively new book on Arminianism.

46:41

Yes. Okay. Concerning John Six? Well, I have the book and I've looked.

46:49

If I recall correctly, I suppose I could do a quick scan of the blog here.

46:55

The point regarding John Six that I wanted to put on your radar screen, although I don't have the book,

47:03

I'm just basing this off a hearsay. He was saying that the believers who are going to be raised at the last day, he was saying the thing that Calvinists do wrong is universalize it and it should be applied only to Jewish believers.

47:20

That's not too unusual. That's not too unusual. No. I've run into a number of folks.

47:28

There's a series of articles on the blog in response to one fellow whose name even escapes me.

47:34

I had been investing way too much time responding to him and then I discovered he's got all sorts of other idiosyncratic viewpoints that make responding to him somewhat of a waste of time and energy.

47:45

I did spend some time responding to this one fellow who approaches the text from a very odd dispensational perspective and as a result limits the relevance of John Six to the

48:01

Jewish people than some other people without even that same odd dispensational perspective.

48:07

Likewise, try to get around what Jesus says in John Six by saying, look, this is only relevant to God's dealings with the

48:14

Jews. Now, I don't know how in the world they get away from the fact that then everything in John Ten and John Three and basically everything in the

48:22

Synoptic Gospels as well becomes only relevant to the Jewish people and you basically cannot derive anything relevant to salvation as a whole from Jesus' teachings.

48:32

Then you're stuck going to Paul only. Well, then you're stuck going to Paul only, but the problem is obviously,

48:40

Ephesians One, Romans Eight and Nine, Paul's saying the same things that Jesus did so it doesn't really accomplish anything. You're just trying to limit the number of texts you have to be dealing with.

48:48

But the problem is that the whole thing of coming to Him and believing

48:54

Him and eternal life and all the things associated with that in John Six, nobody in the history of the

48:59

Church has ever made that kind of limitation and it's so artificial because Jesus Himself does not make that connection to you

49:08

Jews in comparison to Gentiles or someone else. The way I would tackle that is just say, you know, take their assumption and say, okay, well then it would mean

49:20

Calvinism applies to the Jewish people, but then, as we said, there's no distinction between Jew and Gentile, which can be established in the following letters then that would kind of retroactively apply to Gospel of John.

49:35

It's weird. Well, it's weird, but because it is weird, it's sometimes hard for folks to respond to it because of its weirdness.

49:44

In other words, since it's not something that we're accustomed to responding to, then it can be difficult to respond to it.

49:50

I've practiced with a new perspective, you know, when you totally blow a paradigm and start saying words mean things that they don't mean, then you have to figure out new and unique ways to respond.

50:01

Yeah, and that is one of the challenges we face in a context where, sadly,

50:08

I personally think, because of the judgment of God coming upon our nation and the

50:15

Church as a whole, we have to deal with that more and more often. There was a day when

50:21

God restrained the madness of men in some areas, and today that restraint is not being exercised, and so the number of challenges facing the faithful of Christians today are many indeed.

50:35

Lastly, Mr. Lutz sang the cheeseburger song. Who did? Mr. Lutz. Mr. Lutz sang the cheeseburger song.

50:42

Yes. And obviously you have young children in your family? No, I was a college student at one point.

50:54

Thanks, Jeff. You're welcome. Bye. Rich, I'm going to tie your hands to the side of your seat.

51:03

You're only going to be able to adjust those things with your lips, so stop it. We are not going to have any

51:09

VeggieTales debates today. Oh, goodness.

51:16

Okay, well, anyway, it's Mr. Lunt. That's who it is. Okay. Blue has kids, so he knows these things.

51:25

I was going to go to Shabir Ali, but after that, there is really only one thing I can do. Read my book.

51:32

We need to go We need to go to George Bryson, because John 6, George Bryson, you know, it all,

51:39

I mean, we've got that video clip up on YouTube of George Bryson trying to explain the subject of John 6.

51:48

That's a good thing to do. We'll leave Shabir Ali alone today and last few minutes here, we'll press on for a couple anyways with good old

51:55

George Bryson. But whether they will allow it or not, says

52:01

Calvin, predestination is manifest in Adam's posterity. It was not owing to the nature that they all lost salvation by the fault of one parent.

52:11

Why should they refuse to admit that with regard to one man, that which against their will they admit with regard to the whole human race?

52:18

Why Scripture proclaims that all were in the person of one made liable to eternal death, and this cannot be ascribed to nature.

52:26

It is plain that it is owing to the wonderful counsel of God. I'm going to shrink that down into one sentence for you.

52:33

Here's what he says, and I said this earlier. God created you sinless. I can't explain your sin in Adam.

52:41

I can't explain your sin by your nature. He didn't create you a sinner, so there's got to be some other reason you're a sinner.

52:51

The reason? As this cannot be ascribed to nature, it is plain that it is owing to the wonderful counsel of God.

52:59

Other translations say to the wonderful decree of God. In other words, you know, you remember the old

53:05

Flip Wilson thing? God made me do it, or the devil made me do it? Calvin says God made me do it.

53:11

Yeah. George, dealing with real theologians might be a little bit dangerous for you because when you can read

53:24

Calvin's discussions of Providence and Sovereignty and try to summarize it utilizing

53:31

Flip Wilson, you're just going to get into a small amount of trouble and difficulty which is what just happened there.

53:43

That was the explanation. So, on that note, I want to open this up, but I think we have to turn the tape over.

53:49

Root of our problems. That was where the tape was turned over. Can you tell? Root? That's, yeah, well it's happened to us too a few times.

53:57

Sin is the root of our problems. Our problem is God who made us sinners. Now, again,

54:03

God who made us sinners. Overthrowing everything that Reformed folks say about ends and means and secondary causes.

54:11

Just throw it all out, and what's going to be the primary thing that these

54:17

Calvary Chapel pastors are going to take away from George's presentation? Is it going to be the actual quotes of Calvin where he's careful in his language, or is it going to be

54:25

George's massacring of those quotes of Calvin in his summaries where he just doesn't understand what he's saying?

54:32

In the person of Adam. That's the position of Calvinism. And what is the main overarching theme, supposedly of Reformed theology?

54:39

To the glory of God. I want to know. Supposedly of Reformed theology? What glorifies

54:45

God about God making man a sinner, then judging him for the sin that he commits.

54:52

Then he comes around and saves some of the people that he could have condemned, but not shows any interest or does anything on the behalf of those he wants to send to hell.

55:04

They were created to perish, to be punished. Okay, let's open it up. Now, that's the end of his presentation.

55:13

Now he's going to be going into questions and things like that. We'll listen to the rest of it, but you're still left truly amazed at the...

55:26

This is the same man who just a few months ago, when we started playing this, same man who talked about how he really does understand

55:38

John Calvin. He understands what John Calvin had to say. And if he can just get, if he can get to somebody before the

55:47

Calvinists get to him, then he can keep him from being a

55:53

Calvinist. He has the proper theological inoculation to keep people from becoming reformed.

56:02

That's the man that we're talking about right here. Yeah, that's an audience question.

56:12

Yes. Okay, election. If you look on Ephesians 1...

56:18

It's actually, by the way... Is that Warren back there? Wow!

56:25

How many years has it been, Warren, since you've been here during a dividing line? It's been years.

56:31

And used to be we'd have to beg for callers, and we would beg for them by threatening to have

56:38

Warren sing Elvis. Was it Elvis? It was Elvis. Okay. Yeah.

56:44

Hi, Warren. Our studio audience has doubled in size in just the past few moments.

56:50

We're listening to George Bryson. Didn't you go for the Bryson debate? Weren't you over there? Oh, yeah. Along with Eddie and the gang.

56:57

And this was after that, but before the Bible Answer Man thing, so it's exciting.

57:04

The word predestination is used a total of four times in two forms, predestine and predestinate.

57:11

One in Ephesians, one in Romans. But if you look in Ephesians, take the entire...

57:19

You know, there's an old saying, every text out of context is a pretext. Well, if you look at what

57:24

Paul is telling us in Ephesians, I can get to it here. General Electric Power Company, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, that's how we find it.

57:38

There we go. If you look at what Paul is telling the Ephesians, he says that he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

57:55

No question of the timing here. This is an eternal decision. But I want you to know it's an eternal decision on whose part regarding what specifically?

58:07

What's the direct object of the verb, George? Locationally. Locationally. In Christ.

58:16

See, what we're going to try to do from the direct object of the verb is us by putting this in Christ.

58:22

Make Christ the chosen one. That way you can avoid the specificity of the act of choosing itself.

58:28

I have a feeling that's where we're going. But that music in my headset means we have run out of time for the dividing line today.

58:35

Don't forget, your clocks will not change between now and Thursday. So we'll be here at the normal time, but you won't be there at the normal time.

58:44

If you know what I mean. Hopefully you're in Arizona and don't have to worry about things like that. We'll see you Thursday afternoon. God bless. Brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

59:46

If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at PO Box 37106

59:53

Phoenix, Arizona 85069 You can also find us on the world wide web at aomin .org

59:58

That's A -O -M -I -N .O -R -G Where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates and tracks.