June 10, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White. Well, good morning and welcome to the dividing line.

We are live today and you may notice that we sound a Little bit different than we did a week ago today that's because we are not on a cell phone this time around and That Makes things a little bit easier.

I would imagine for everyone to hear though I I haven't listened the archive of last week. So I don't know how the cell phone sounded but it is amazing what you can do these days With those particular little pieces of equipment, but we are back from Long Island two weeks away.

And it was a wonderful time. I want to thank Chris Arnzen and Brian McLaughlin, especially For their their work and making that entire trip possible. It is a lot of work that goes into that. We visited a number of different churches Hillside Baptist Church Grace Reformed Baptist Church Hope Reformed Baptist Church.

The wonderful folks down in New Jersey at Trinity Fellowship Church we were all over the island basically at the Massapequa Church of God and Just wonderful folks every place that we went and a wonderful Opportunities There in in speaking and in preaching this past weekend.

I had the opportunity of Speaking on the subject of first in the morning the mission of the church at Hope Reformed Baptist Church and then Sunday evening we spoke. I we what is we. I spoke on the issue of new perspectivism and That was at the Grace Reformed Baptist Church as first time I had an opportunity of speaking at their Amityville location they have two churches.

They have two buildings because there's two churches that merged together. I've always spoken in the Merrick location 36 Smith Street. Just south Long Island Railroad. No North Long Island Railroad and In fact, that's where I went.

That's where that's what even on the website still I need to pull that page down. But it still says that that's where where the meeting was going to be and lo and behold it was in Amityville. So I was about five or ten minutes late getting there to get to crosstown to the to the other location, but it all ended up working out and So that was that was very enjoyable and lots of questions from folks that that whole issue I think is is not going to go away anytime soon.

That's something we're gonna have to keep dealing with and keep standing for the truth for a long long time unfortunately the those who who present False teachings on the subject of justification tend to be very very How shall I put it?

They have they have a lot of energy they don't go away and so it takes a tremendous amount of work to respond to them and So that that was a great opportunity To to speak with all those folks to meet folks.

I love getting a chance to travel meet folks who listen to the dividing line Long ways away. It reminds us that we are not alone out here in the desert Southwest and. And so I appreciate again all the hard work and effort that that went into that and all the wonderful people from all those churches again, I'm not exactly sure when the Debates will be available.

They normally show up in mp3 format first. Specifically the debate with Mitch Pacwa on the subject of the priesthood, but I would like to Mention that I think along with the Stravinsky's debate on purgatory.

This debate will be one of those that those of you who are involved in planning the Sunday school curriculum for your churches that were involved in Christian education and You want to be able to present a video presentation?

That would allow for Well for you to even invite Roman Catholics to attend because there is a a fair representation of both sides and yet in both situations a very clear difference between the the kind of the kind in nature of biblical Argumentation and evidence.

That is that it is presented. I think that these these two debates especially Would be most useful for that and so keep that in mind keep an eye on the website. You know feel free to drop certain people in the ministry notes remind them that you're you're waiting because that will make them feel loved and and and wanted and and Will not put them under any undue pressure whatsoever to.

Then I'm afraid that miscellaneous as yet to be reconnected pieces of equipment are about to come flying around the corner at me because there's I was the fact that I was trying to fire up my my I have got my computer connected to the to my stereo which Strangely enough is all the way across my office, which isn't a long ways but it's on the other side my office, and then the speakers come back over to where my computer is and I was sitting I turn it on and I'm trying to turn up the volume, and I'm going what's what's going on.

And I look over there, and and and there's one really important connector. That's that goes up over the door. It's completely gone it got stolen to go to New York to help with the Recording of the of the debate it has not yet been returned it played a very vital role vital role.

Yes. Talk about Stealing from Peter to pay Paul or Paul to pay Peter or whatever it is. Yeah. Well, that's how we do stuff around here folks. We I was so pleased to have found a Home Depot right next to my hotel in New York.

That's right. Did what did you pick up there? What do you think duct tape duct tape? Hey? Hey, well you should have gotten extra brought it back, and then we would have been able to Withstand any terrorist attacks along with a little bit of plastic tape plastic stuff on the window so anyways.

Well it's it's good to be back, and it's good to know that we make a that we got the the debate recorded and despite by the way those of you who are concerned about the the House sound the sound in the auditorium it's a what is that a room whatever?

It's a banquet hall a banquet hall. That's really not going to affect this. I mean I imagine you can probably hear something in the background. But I don't think it'll it'll impact the quality of where she be able to hear it certainly will sound a whole lot better than The first few years of the great debate on Long Island like the one year.

Where they used the house they I guess I I'm not sure but it almost seemed to me Like the only sound they had was on the camera in the back of the room and open mic catching the house sound. Now he is the microphone on his camera.

Yeah, it was the house. Oh, it was it was it was almost You know almost ruined it and unfortunately he was right next to the microphone where the audience lined up to Ask their questions, so he was able to spin the camera around and that's how you're able to hear the audience questions.

Just unbelievable and then then one year, I think the the mass debate the last debate we had at the Coral House. They did something something kept picking up a local rock station. And I remember right in the middle of one of Robertson Genesis statements.

He here. You know. It was it was it was hilarious, but anyways we didn't we didn't have any of those types of issues though. It is strange. It is strange. I hope when you call that company whoever made our soundboard out there.

It was the exact it well wasn't the exact same soundboard. But the same company same make just one step above ours and the very same channel that fried on ours. Which happened right here on the dividing line is what fried during the debate on theirs the very same one that is just too weird.

And I hope you mentioned that to the company when you call them about the fact that ours Fried as well, and so they need to replace that so. Well anyway the debate will be available whenever that strange voice that comes in both during the program and also Is attempting to do Barry White impersonations prior to the program?

When the the the body that hosts that voice gets around to editing the video and making it available. So actually I started on that this morning. That's that's very good. And now is that going to be available before certain debates from a couple months ago.

Well since I've got everything wired. I'll probably do them in order, but Frankly, I think it's a better debate so yeah I would happen to agree. I think there would be more interest in the priesthood debate with Mitch Pacwa than either the Debate with It's so memorable folks.

He can't even remember what they were about. I Was actually I was gonna say the debate with dr. Potter on Mormonism was Intriguing but not exactly groundbreaking and the debate with Robertson Janice on the mass Is just simply the two-hour version of the previous three-hour version from a few years ago with just a few exceptions.

So you know I think it would be it would be good to have the priesthood debate available because that's what people are talking about. And and things like that so well I should be able to get them done in order.

And we'll get the the Pacwa debate up there first, and then do the other two right right afterwards. Well that wouldn't be in order then or would it be a reverse order reverse order that works a reverse order, okay?

Okay, all right well eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and Since we're talking about the Pacwa debate.

Someone who attended the Pacwa debate sat down toward the front along with a couple other folks from New Jersey is Steve and he has called in so let's go ahead and talk about the Pacwa debate real quickly and Invite your calls on any other subject.

You'd like to raise well. You know within reason at eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one hi Steve. How you doing? How are you doing? Dr.. White doing pretty good good. I was listening to your webcast last Tuesday on the on the archive and you remembered me, and I appreciated the flattered by that.

I have a question and it's concerning your question. Yeah, I believe you cited Timothy. Actually, or the Titus I think it was Titus and yes I was specifically using the looking for the use the term presbuter off there mm-hmm and You asked him where was mrs.. Pacwa, and he and let's let's admit.

He had a very good response didn't he that's right. It was very very very humorous his response was my mother died a few years ago. But he turned kind of red. And by the way there was another person from New Jersey my friend George was there as well.

Oh, we didn't connect that night well and and and Mike who called in last week was there too so there were the The three the three Christians from New Jersey did did did make the debate it was very very encouraging.

Oh, you had two mics there. Oh, yes, okay good. So yes for about the the Being the husband of one wife. Does that imply that a presbyter or elder must be married? You know a lot of people ask that question and of course all I was attempting to do in in raising the issue was to just Sort of point out that if the the argument that he was making was true, and that is that.

And in just so so folks know what the argument was it it's very common for Roman Catholic historians and theologians today to argue That the the presbyters in the New Testament became priests and historically.

That's what it was the that office was differentiated from Episcopal which is why I pointed out you cannot make that differentiation in in the text itself and why he had to basically assume it and Try to come up with I felt the only argument he did raise tried to differentiate between the two even though Roman Catholic theologians and biblical exegetes recognized their use interchangeably was that well Episcopal is used Singularly more often in presbyter us in the plural and I pointed out well That's because it's used singularly in those passages in Timothy because it's talking about the the Elder the qualifications of the elder he must be without blame husband of well I saw sort of but it's presbyter us using the singular in Titus the same thing so it's it's it's it's not a Valid argument, but anyways the reason I raised it was not to say well You need to be married to be this but his argument was not what you find in in most of what I've read from modern Roman Catholic Theologians his argument was based on that well you couldn't call him priests, and so you called them presbytery instead I Wanted to point out that if that if what he was saying is they were the priests then by apostolic Teaching priests at that time were one husband men now or one wife men so Therefore there would they their their tradition their their discipline of Celibacy would go directly against the apostolic example that is given there now.

That's a different issue than saying can a single man Be an elder. I don't think that you can push That point that to that point that a person who was Indeed Paul himself Very much recognizes that that single state the person who gives themselves the service of Christ in the kingdom and and So on so forth in in first Corinthians that that is that is something that is very praiseworthy and so on so forth.

I can't imagine that by saying what he was saying he was saying that therefore all elders must be married men. I think what he means by that is all elders must be faithful men. And if they are married that means they're faithful to the woman to whom they are married.

They're not philanderers and So I I don't I I personally do not see that it follows that a person has to be married. It sounded a little bit like I see where you were going with it, but it came across is a one-woman man.

It almost sounded as if the fact that he wasn't married is a Rome does not allow the priest to marry is an indication that the priesthood is invalid based on that not on the well. Yeah, well well the fact the fact that that element of the description of the elder or bishop or presbyter us overseer.

The fact that that element has been made irrelevant In light of the fact they do forbid marrying which which Paul Specifically identifies as an element of false teaching I think is relevant. But it doesn't follow that what I meant by that is that a single person is is precluded from that position of eldership.

Simply because of that fact. I think that the the issue. I didn't even get into that particular subject. Yeah, I am bunch of other questions. Somebody's wife dies, and they remarried. If someone what if somebody's wife dies, and they remarry I think early on they They They tended to remain in a single state at least some in the early church when I want to say a widower.

Yeah, I know. I I don't I certainly would not hold that position. Paul does address the issue of of when a person passes away the relationship with that marriage ends and That a person is is free to marry only in the Lord at that point in time.

I I don't believe that that that is Something that disqualifies a person from from the position of eldership. No. Yeah, that's that's that's the big the big argument and There are there are people on both sides of that particular that particular arguments.

I personally think that has to do with the you know the nature of the situation I think for example if a person is abandoned. If a person that becomes a believer there, let's say their wife does not become a believer and simply will not abide the the gospel.

That that's different on a fundamental basis than a situation where there is a Profession of faith, and there's you know I am I'm an agreement there wholeheartedly and In that position. And I'm still the husband of one wife right right a woman man.

That's right, but yeah, no I really didn't yeah, I wasn't trying to get into that. I just I had thought about it and before that that was actually a part of the questions that I had written down and I had written it down because I was looking at the uses of those two terms, and I thought to myself if He attempts to differentiate between Episcopal and presbyteros and tries to say that Presbyteros in the New Testament actually are already functioning as priests.

Then this would be a relevant question since that is the direction that he went then that that was the question that I asked. All righty well. Thank you. You take care all right. Thanks a lot for for coming out the debate.

I appreciate it, and you all enjoyed it. You all try to stay dry there. I hear you have more rain headed I know I know, but they I was watching the watching the news, and it's heading back your direction yet.

It's unbelievable. I was when I was out there base going man I've never seen so much rain in my life, and there was all this complaints, and I I Usually a rainy this spring yeah, well. I you know it was it was gray almost every day I was there's about two days where I saw the Sun, but you know it really didn't bother me all that much.

But then again, I knew I was heading back out to Phoenix where I'd see many many weeks of Sunny skies anyway, so it didn't really matter so anyway. Thanks. You've called Steve all right. You take care.

God bless All right eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Mike who called last week also wanted to make comment on the debate. So let's stick with the theme if you have another topic.

You'd like to bring up feel free to join us today at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. It's a little tough for me before we go to Mike a little tough for me to do programs. You know only a few hour well few hours after just getting back from from traveling especially since I didn't get a direct flight home yesterday and got to spend quite some time at LaGuardia and Chicago Midway and Then on a small 737 with three people packed in my row from Chicago here.

So it's it's hard to come up with With programs the morning after that other than talking about what you've just went through or what's your plan doing in the near future? Oh someone just in a before we go to Mike someone just was very unkind and channel to remind me of crisp meat burritos.

Right before right before lunch. That's a very unkind thing to do and if that person did not have 450 ops level status I would I would wreak havoc, but anyway, let's go ahead and talk with Mike. Hi Mike I don't know.

How's it going with you? Oh, I'm I'm right yesterday.

I was able to see the IMAX version of matrix reloaded, so I'm very happy.

Well, you just lost a few folks that you were listening there. They're tuning out now actually so yeah.

You sound you sound sort of tired. Yeah, yeah, I tend to be. No matter where I am it's very. You Know if you're tired of not having crisp meat burritos you could come to Utah more often, but I guess that's yeah, well.

There there are many reasons to visit a state. But crisp meat burritos as good as they are Do not necessarily rank at the very high high end of that particular. I agree completely. But um I mean you get to have them all the time if you if you ate them as often as I eat them when I'm there.

You would be much thicker than you are right.

That's certainly true. But um one of the things about the debate that got me with his argument that Paul and The rest would not use the term of priest in terms of Christians because it would offend the Jews.

Because they were in a third Levitical line. But when you look at what they do in acts in terms of addressing the Jews that doesn't ever really seem to be much of a concern to them. Because they'll turn around and talk about the Messiah Who's the most central figure in Jewish theology and tell them that they crucified him?

Which I would think would be somewhat more offensive than applying a term Which doesn't have the correct lineage behind it to a Christian?

Yeah, I there were there were so many Directions from which that didn't make any sense to me that I it was almost hard for me to respond to it simply because it was. It took me by surprise That Mitch Packel would use that argumentation.

It really did I just You know maybe if I had run into it You know In something I had read before I I don't know. But the fact that the that he admitted that the right of the Hebrews Could care less about the very distinction that he made that is he admitted well You know certainly yeah the the writer of the Hebrews does use that term priest in a in the very way.

That his whole argument says that Paul never would. Then you go okay wait a minute here you have someone who's writing to Hebrew Christians. So if this argument was ever going to have any level of validity it would be right here.

It would be in the very context of the book of Hebrews writing to Hebrew Christians and to admit that well. Yes, he did, but Paul wouldn't when Paul is writing outside of Palestine to non Hebrew Christians.

Just made me go. Oh come on. You've got to see how how completely off base this is and Unfortunately he didn't didn't. Well, I don't know if he saw that I don't know if I explained it clearly enough to him I I hope that he heard that but I you know you never know how how far you really get in communicating that type of Thing.

I mean I think Mitch does listen to what I say and tries to respond to it. If he has the opportunity of doing so I don't think he's like a lot of folks like maybe sitting in the front row who were not listening to anything that I had to say and and Wouldn't be able to repeat to you any argument that I presented.

You know even that night let alone today, so yeah, I yeah, I Don't know what else to say other than yeah, I was very surprised at the argumentation as it was used.

Yeah, I was. I was pleased with the fact that he stayed on topics. I expected hearing They know a series of patristic quotes that supposedly support transubstantiation or some of the peripheral issues.

But he stayed on the actual Existence of the priesthood as an office in the Christian Church, right which I was very happy with. I mean I think it's an extremely valuable debate in terms of Evangelism or whatnot because It didn't go all over the place.

It stayed focused on the topic at hand, and he didn't invent evidence And try and take it off on tangents or something like that, so I was very pleased with it in that regard.

Yeah, at least he didn't end up doing as I've had some opponents and debates for example Scott Butler quoting from the Arabic canons of the Council of Nicaea which everyone recognizes are fraudulent and we didn't have the donation of Constantine or the pseudo-isidore and decretals Being cited as if they were actual evidence and all the rest that kind of stuff, so that's that's obviously a good thing and So yeah, he normally does stay on topic.

I thought that there is actually more discussion of related, but not necessarily directly related stuff in regards to mass than than I had expected, but He would feel more comfortable with that particular subject so since it was raised It would make sense that he would want to you know really press upon that and then we also have to remember the emotional Benefit of dealing with that particular subject within the context of the Roman Catholic Church as well because When you're when you want to excite your base I'll never forget the guy in the first Staples debate in Fullerton during the audience questions.

There's a whole line of people standing there waiting to ask questions and You know Tim Staples folks folks listen to me folks folks. You know you know my students will tell you that You know and he's getting the audience all excited and all of a sudden this guy just can't contain himself anymore, and he just yells out the Eucharist and Everybody's yeah, yeah and and you just like Okay, this is this is a pep rally or a debate.

Which one is this one? I've lost track of which one it is so it does have that kind of Emotional element to it for a lot of folks. Well, thank you very much for coming, I appreciate your driving now. I was amazed.

It's a when I got back to The hotel and fired up my computer you were already in Channel, and you live in, New Jersey. So I'm not sure if you took a helicopter. If possibly Romans 13 got a little bit bent.

We were going on the way back. We made it back and.

Matters. Okay, well all right. Thanks, Mike. All right. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. We'll be coming up on our break. That's a perfect time for you to join us with your questions or comments.

Maybe you'd like to look down the road toward the next debates coming up. Next. Books coming up. We'll be glad to talk about those. Join us.

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Highly recommended. You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen Org. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 630 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

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And welcome back to dividing line. It's about 27 minutes before the hour. That means there's about 25 minutes left for those of you who are just dying to call in to get your chance to break through that constant busy signal that is the well anyways.

No, actually. If you have any questions or comments. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four. One had an interesting conversation day before yesterday and I was speaking to a an individual who has studied with Jehovah's Witnesses and but I heard all of the objections rolled into just one quick flurry of Objections and so we started trying to deal with some of them for example.

We some reason and this is not normally the direction that I go. We started with John 1 1 and One of the the things that I have seen over and over again in fact it reminds me of something fact. I want to bring up an email another example of the tremendous power of tradition.

I got an email last night. Let me see if I can bring it up here. Oops. Wrong wrong folder. I got an email last night. And it was quoting from a debate now, where'd I where'd I put that thing? That's not the one I was looking for.

I wonder if I left it in the inbox. No, that's not there either. Hmm. Well, it was oh, yeah, here it is a quoting from debate between Norman Geisler in 1994 with Farrell till a very well-known atheist and It was quoting Norman Geisler and I found this very interesting, especially those of you who have Listened to this this program, especially we've discussed Matthew 23 37 before Quoting Norman Geisler quote and I don't believe that God wants to send anyone to hell and certainly not professor till Jesus said Oh Jerusalem.

Oh Jerusalem. How oft I would have gathered you together as a mother hen gathers her chicks. But you would not and if professor till goes to hell it's because he doesn't want eternal life loud applause and shouts of approval not because God doesn't love him louder applause and Quote and I found that to interesting.

In light of the fact that if you're familiar with Matthew 23 37, that is the constant Miss citation traditionally driven miss citation of Dave Hunt and Norman Geisler and Adrian Rogers and all these individuals who miss cited and say how often would I have gathered you and you would not and the the whole point of the two different audiences being blurred by various levels of Miss citation normally from from memory, but miss citation anyways Impacting how we hear things.

Well same things took place in talking with this Individual who had been studying with Jehovah's Witnesses for quite some time. If you've ever done that, you know that you will hear John 1 18 thrown your direction.

No one has seen God any time now, that's only the first phrase of an entire sentence. But Again, it was thrown out there. No one's seen God any time. We saw Jesus therefore Jesus can't be God and I said well you might want to finish reading the rest of the of the Of the sentence and so she looks it up.

And of course they use a small G With God the only begotten God in in 118 and I so I tried to explain The fact that capitals or non capitals is an editorial thing and she didn't believe me at first. But I you know pressed the point and then eventually I said, okay, so you don't believe anyone's ever seen God could you please read for me Isaiah 6 1 out of the New World Translation, which is what she was carrying and So she looked at it and it says in the year the King Uzziah died I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne lofty and lifted up and I said, so who did he who did Isaiah see?

I saw saw saw Jehovah. So what is John 1 18 mean? Well, that sounds contradictory and then I took the conversation over John chapter 12, especially verse 41 Where Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and you spoke about him.

I pointed out where the citation was from is from Isaiah 6. We know who Isaiah would answer when it was Isaiah. Who did you see? I saw Jehovah who does John say he saw and and the response was he said Jesus.

Well, there you go What I haven't ever seen that before so we're able to you know Make that point but then immediately the next response which is somewhat disappointing was well, what about Christmas?

And That that makes you go. All that effort and you really you have to wonder you know. You just trust the Lord will use it and you know, it may not it may not make impact now. But maybe down the road there will be some willingness to to look at some more information and and some work of the Holy Spirit.

And prioritizing the importance of subjects as well eight seven seven seven five three. Three three four one. Let's talk with Adam in Akron, Ohio. Hi Adam.