July 25, 2025 Show: Jeremiah Nortier vs. Jared K. Henry Debate on the Ordination of Women (Day 2 of 2)

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 25th day of July 2025.

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And once again, I am very excited and pumped up about today's program. Today is day number two of the second debate that we've had on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with these two same brethren.

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We've had other debates in the past on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but this is the second we've had with these two brethren,

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Jared K. Henry, who is a Nazarene pastor, and Jeremiah Nortier, who is a

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Reformed Baptist pastor. The first debate that these two men participated in two weeks ago was on the ordination of women, where the

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Nazarene Jared K. Henry affirmed the ordination of women into positions of worship over men in the church, and Reformed Baptist pastor

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Jeremiah Nortier opposed that thesis. And today we have the second day of day number two, or should

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I say of debate number two, on the theme, Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life.

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And once again, we have the Nazarene Jared K. Henry affirming that thesis, and we have the

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Reformed Baptist Jeremiah Nortier denying or opposing that thesis. First, we're going to have 10 -minute recaps from yesterday by each of the debaters, and we are going to start with Jared K.

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Henry, who is the pastor of Mackie Church of the Nazarene in Mackie, Indiana.

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The website of that church is mackienaz .org, M -A -C -K -E -Y -N -A -Z .org.

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And Pastor Jared K. Henry, you now have your 10 minutes to begin on your recap from yesterday's program.

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Thank you so much, Brother Chris. It's good to be on again today. It's good to be again here with my brother Jeremiah. I just want to reaffirm that we get really intensely involved in our debates, but in Christ we are brothers, and I love him, and I appreciate him and his enthusiasm and his desire to honor the

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Lord and recognize the authority of Scripture. So I want to just try to recap again a few things that I tried to do yesterday.

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One is to make sure, and this was I felt like a kind of a constant battle to clarify what

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I was advocating for, the thesis, can Christians be totally free from known sin in this life?

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We talked about a lot of other things, but I want to talk about, can

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Christians be totally free from known sin in this life? What kind of sin? Known sin.

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This is not unintentional sin. This is not sin that I committed that I was unaware was a grievance or a disobedience or a breaking of the commandment to God.

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This was willful, conscious, intentional sin. I use kind of as a definition of the specific kind of sin that we're talking about.

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James chapter 4 verse 17, whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

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That's the kind of sin that we're talking about. When we say, I know what is right, but I choose to do something different.

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That is a conscious, rebellious act toward God. And so it's wrong.

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No one, or at least no one on this, in this debate, really no one that I know about is arguing that there will be no sin in a life of a believer, in this life, in terms of unintentional sin, unconscious sin, something that goes against my will.

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In other words, I didn't willfully do this. This was an accident kind of thing. We're not talking about those kinds of things, although that might be something someone would want to debate.

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But we've got to differentiate between what is willful, conscious sin and human limitations, mistakes.

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Even Jeremiah mentioned stumblings. We're not talking about stumblings and those mistakes, those kinds of things.

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We're talking about willful choice to sin. I'm tempted.

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I know it's a temptation. I know this issue is a sin, and I do it anyway. We've got to differentiate between those things because we're talking about known sin and being free from that in this life.

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So, I'm saying to be totally free from known sin in this life is only by God's grace, empowered by the

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Holy Spirit, to not willingly or purposely or deliberately violate

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God's will. This is a Holy Spirit -empowered reality in this life. So, Brother Jeremiah has a few presuppositions he brings to the table as well.

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We disagree on these things. One is he believes that we must live in sin in this life due to the flesh, the carnal nature, depravity, whatever he might make reference to it.

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But Jeremiah likes to use Paul's testimony at least partially, and this is the problem of context, to talk about when he says in Romans chapter 7,

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Oh, wretched man that I am. And he talks about the things that I want to do, I don't do. And you can sense the striving and the difficulty because he says,

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Even the things I want to do, I can't do. And Jeremiah is saying, This is the standard

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Christian life. There's nothing beyond that. But Paul doesn't end in chapter 7.

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He continues and goes on into chapter 8. For example, beginning at verse 12,

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So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

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For if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

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What does it mean to put to death the deeds of the body? I think it means that you don't continue in your sin.

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You cannot continue to practice willful, knowledgeable, intentional sin.

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Verse 14 of chapter 8 in Romans, For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

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For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received the spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry,

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I'm a father. The Spirit himself bears witness by our spirit that we are children of God. And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

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So what's the outcome? Yes, Brother Jeremiah wants to talk about glorification. Praise be to God.

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We're not denying glorification, but this debate isn't about glorification. It's about this life.

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We're talking about this life and sin, intentional, willful sin. You cannot continue in the life of the believer.

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Number two, or I refer to this, but he translates to heaven what God wants to do here.

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All right. So this continual, ongoing, willful sin is not acceptable in the eyes of God in this life.

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The wages of sin is death. That's spiritually and ultimately eternity apart from God and hell.

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All the tenor of Scripture speaks against, though, willful sin in this life.

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Even God's people, he speaks strongly. Willful sin is not acceptable. In fact, he punishes the

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Israelites in the Old Testament for their sin. There's discipline, he talks about, in the

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New Testament for ongoing willful sin. Why does he discipline? Why does he punish?

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And why would God punish if he said, I expect this of you, but I'm not going to allow you, by grace, to live this way.

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I'm just going to continue to punish you in this or just allow this to continue to take place.

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I think God's serious enough not only to prohibit willful sin, but to provide grace through the power of the

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Holy Spirit for us to say no to temptation and yes to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in a consistent manner in this life.

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So, I know I said yesterday, my brother Jeremiah didn't like it, but salvation, what we're talking about, is not a carrot on a stick.

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It's not to say, well, follow this carrot. Eventually, one day after you die, when you get to heaven, then and only then will you be able to live the kind of life that God wants you to live.

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No, he's saying, I will empower you to say no to temptation.

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I'm going to give you a way of escape. I'm going to give you my Holy Spirit. Resurrection power will be available for you to say no.

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I believe that the power of the gospel is greater. The power of Christ is greater than the flesh at work in us.

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1 John chapter 5, verse 2, By this we know that we love the children of God when we love

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God and obey his commandments. What's implied here? What's expected? Obedience to the will of God.

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Verse 3, for this is the love of God. When you love the Lord, that we keep his commandments.

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This is how love is expressed. Jesus said, if you love me, you will obey me. And his commandments are not burdensome.

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It doesn't have to be an ongoing burden to say, oh no, I've got to stay sober this weekend while my friends are there.

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No, this is a joy as well. Is there a fight? Is there a battle? Is there a resistance?

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Is there a fleeing from sin that needs to take place? Absolutely. Verse 4, chapter 5, 1

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John, for everyone who has been born of God, not some of them, but everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world.

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Praise be to God. That was mine. But here's the scripture continues. And this is the victory that has overcome the world.

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Our faith. Faith in what? Faith in our ability to do it? Nope. Faith in his work in us.

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Are we saying, am I saying that I'm perfect? Am I saying that we are perfect? No, I'm saying he is perfect and his work in us is perfect.

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Praise be to God. Who is it that, verse 5, who is it that overcomes the world? Except the one who believes that Jesus is the son of God.

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Why would God deal so harshly with sin if he has not made provision for dealing with it in this life?

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And I think I'm about out of time here, so I will capitulate the rest of my time. Okay. And now we have

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Jeremiah Nortier, the Reformed Baptist pastor in this debate, who is opposing or denying the thesis that Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life.

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Jeremiah Nortier is the pastor of Twelve Five Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

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And the website for that church is twelvefivechurch .com, and that's the word twelve, the numeral five, church .com.

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And you now have 10 minutes, Pastor Jeremiah, to give your recap of yesterday.

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Thanks so much, Chris. And I just want to let everybody know that I really love

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Jared, and I love our interactions, and I love it gets passionate. And so sometimes we over -talk each other, and we understand that it's done in Christian love.

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So I just want everyone to hear the thesis, the question that Jared is defending.

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Can Christians be totally free from known sin in this life?

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I believe he has the insurmountable task to say that, yes, we can do this in the flesh.

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And so in this life, everything that we do is tainted by the principle of sin that exists in our fleshly members.

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Now, you mentioned Romans 8 earlier. I'm going to address that more in the rebuttal because I want you to hear the words of 1

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John 1 again. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

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The real difference between me and Jared is we have a different understanding of the depth of sin.

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I believe sin is exceedingly sinful to our very core. But grace is greater than our sin in this way, that when we are regenerated, we now have a new master,

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Jesus Christ. And we go from totally sinning, doing nothing but, that's what we love, that's what we practice, that's what we habitually do, to now we can obey him.

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The difference with me and Jared, though, even in our best obedience in this life, it is tainted with the flesh.

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It is tainted with the curse of sin that exists in our fleshly members. And so I want

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Jared to hear me. When you positively, knowingly obey, the principle of sin is always mixed in with that.

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Therefore, you can never escape it in this life. And so 1 John 1 depicts the

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Christians that walk in the light. It's not that they're free from all known sin. It's the Christian. They are convicted when they realize that they fall short of God's perfect standard.

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We do not have a perfect love when we carry out our actions of obedience to God. And what would that cause the

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Apostle Paul to do? Well, to be convicted over him falling short of the glory of God and praying out and resting in the fact that we will shed this meat suit and one day we will be resurrected to glory.

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And there will be times where we give in to temptation and willfully sin in this way.

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And God has always made provision. This is the ongoing life of a Christian to repent and confess sin.

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And this depicts the life of the believer who has victory in Christ, knowing that one day he will return and glorify us now.

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So I'd like to continue this train of thought. Because something that Jared said my position is advocating for, it's a misrepresentation.

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But I do not believe the Christian can practice sin and walk in the light.

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And I believe we can really understand the tension that exists here in 1 John 3.

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It's funny because he went to 1 John chapter 5 where it talks about all Christians have victory in Christ. Well, I'd ask

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Jared, what about those that are still warring against the flesh? What kind of victory is that if you're still at war?

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I thought you were a victory. Well, the point is you can have both victory and be at war. Now, the things that Jared doesn't like us getting deeper into is he actually believes that he's free from all known sin and is completely sanctified.

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And says, Jeremiah, we don't have to debate about that right now. Well, it's interconnected. That's why I asked you yesterday if you're that perfect man that can tame the tongue of evil and have perfect love for neighbor.

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You said yes, which is kind of crazy in my book. But I say that in love because I realize that sin pervades my very existence and I can't escape it in the things that I do.

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If you would, look with me at 1 John chapter 3 starting in verse 2. Beloved, we are children of God now.

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And we will be, what will be is not yet appeared. So we're looking for something that is coming in the next life at our

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Lord's return. But we will know that when Jesus appears, we shall be like him because we shall see him as he is.

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Amen and praise God because this life is not meant to be a carrot on a stick and doom and gloom because I can't escape the principle of sin.

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Then I'm just going to walk around sad about it. No, to live as Christ. And we know that what

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God has worked in us, he will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. That's actually when sanctification will be complete.

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Verse 3 is really important to understanding this context here. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

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The life of the Christian is one of war and victory in this way.

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I wanted to think of analogy, Jared, that maybe can advance the conversation and maybe you'll like this.

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I believe believers, when we are commissioned, commanded to go pan for gold,

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I believe that we can go pan for gold. And when we get the pan and we have those those chunks of gold, we can look at that and acknowledge that, man, we did it.

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We have gold. We were we obey God. We his commandments are not burdensome to us. But that gold in this life always is intermixed with our fleshly tendencies.

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It's always intermixed with those rocks, the impurities of how we pan for gold in this life.

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And so that's what I'm saying, Jared, is the ongoing life of the believer, we can actually pan for gold and be truly obedient.

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But what is always present is that principle of sin in our flesh. Now, think about this. The unbeliever, when he goes panning for gold, he can only capture fool's gold along with rocks and dirt and all those other impurities.

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But he cannot have gold at all. And so the trajectory of the

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Christian pursuing this life, walking in the light, is one where we can have those true moments of practicing righteousness.

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But it's always painted with that principle of sin. This is what I believe

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John is talking about in the life of the believer. Verse four, everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness.

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I want to pause. John here in a moment will talk about that word practice and how it entails a heart that pursues in a particular direction.

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And sin is lawlessness. And so remember back in 1 John, in God there is light and there is no darkness at all.

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God's law is holy, righteous, and good because it reflects sin. This is a perfect standard that we will always fall short in thought, word, and deed.

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Verse five, you know that He appeared in order to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.

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Jared, Jesus did not have the possibility of doing the act of sin.

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His body did not have the principle of sin because He was not under the sin of Adam.

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In Jesus, it was not possible for Him to disobey the Father. He is the standard.

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In this life, we pursue being like Him, but our acts of obedience are always going to be touched with sin.

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So He is our standard. And remember what we just read, when He returns, we will be like Him. We will be resurrected with new bodies, no longer with that principle of sin in our members.

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Verse six, no one who abides in Him keeps on sinning. No one who keeps on sinning has either seen

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Him or known Him. The unbeliever that doesn't know Him practices and pursues only sin continually, even in their best efforts.

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It's fool's gold mixed with dirt and rubble and all those things that are detestable before God.

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Verse seven, little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous as He is righteous.

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So the deception here is for the one that says that you can be freed from all known sin in order to practice righteousness.

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That is not true because you are still in this flesh and even your best efforts is touched with that principle of sin.

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Verse eight, whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

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The reason for the Son of God, He appeared, was to destroy the works of the devil. Now listen, all the children of the devil, think about what it means for Satan to practice sin and continues to do it.

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It's because Satan can only do evil continually. It is impossible for Satan to achieve any gold, any acts of righteousness.

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It is only evil continually. And the children of the devil, right, that are enslaved and bondage to sin and have not been born again, that is the only thing that they can do is grasp at fool's gold.

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But for us, we have a new master, not Satan, not the flesh, but Jesus Christ. And in this life, we are being purified.

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The Holy Spirit is working love in us and working in us in this life. We are being purified over time, but the impurities will still exist there until our

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Lord returns. And so verse nine, please pay careful attention. No one born of God makes a practice,

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Jared, of sinning. For the believer, we practice righteous. Not that we can perfectly love neighbor or perfectly love

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God, but we practice it. We get better at righteousness, and one day we will be perfect when our

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Lord returns. You got to be careful interpreting verse nine. Like certain translations says the one who commits sin basically does not have the seed of God in him.

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Well, if Jared's not careful, then he's going to have to go to the position that says Christians never sin.

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I know that's not what he's advocating for, but you got to be careful how you interpret this verse. It's not talking about the acts themselves.

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It's talking about the habitual lifestyle. For unbelievers, children of Satan, it's only sin continually without a hope of righteousness.

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But for the Christian, we actually are victorious. We can pursue obedience even though it is touched by the principle of sin in our members.

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But one day we await for perfection at our Lord's return. Thanks so much, Chris. And once again, ten minutes on the button.

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And when we return, we are going to have each of our debaters provide an eight -minute rebuttal, starting with the

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Nazarene, Jared K. Henry. We're going to our first commercial break, and I'd like to welcome a new sponsor to the program,

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Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville. Then, on Sunday, September 21st, at 1 .30

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p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the

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Bible is the Authentic and Inerrant Word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.

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and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with day number two of the debate on the theme,

36:50

Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life. And we have reached the point where each of our debaters is giving an eight -minute rebuttal, and we are starting with the

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Nazarene pastor Jared K. Henry, who is affirming Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life, and you have eight minutes.

37:11

All right. Thank you. Let me just clarify again, because now we're going from unintentional or mistakes.

37:19

Now I feel like Brother Jeremiah is talking about the sinful nature. I'm not advocating today for freedom from the sinful nature.

37:28

All right. That's another debate. I'm advocating for the freedom that we have in Christ Jesus to say no to temptation.

37:40

That's simply what I'm saying. I'm saying that it's it's possible that God expects it and that God empowers it.

37:47

All right. So the practice of sin, you know, that Brother Jeremiah, he looked first,

37:53

John, and tried to kind of re -articulate. Well, the practice of sin is the practice of sin.

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I'm not advocating for the practice of sin. I'm advocating that you can practice sin. So I get confused when

38:06

Brother Jeremiah starts to do all these gymnastics in the verses where he says the practice of sin is when you practice sin.

38:15

It might not be the same sin. It could be different sins, whether you practice it once a week, once a day, once a night.

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He says that every day, thought, word and deed, you must sin. That sounds like something that he's practicing.

38:29

And if you believe what he's saying, that you're practicing sin on a daily basis, that that's part of what you're doing.

38:37

Again, we're not talking about accidental. We're not talking about human error or shortcomings physically in our fallen state.

38:47

But we're talking about willful sin. That's what Jeremiah is saying, that every day you must sin in thought, word and deed.

38:55

This is an ongoing sin that we're unable to resist. Even though God made a way of escape that we looked at yesterday, 1

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Corinthians chapter 10, that that way of escape isn't really available for you all the time. It's kind of a come and go kind of a thing.

39:10

So what I'm saying is that he's conflating the need to resist temptation with defeat.

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If there's a battle of any kind, if there's resistance of any kind, you've already lost the battle because you're having to resist.

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But even Jesus resisted temptation in this life. And he was perfect without sin.

39:30

All right. And he did so as an example to us. So no one believes that you won't have to resist temptation in some form or another.

39:38

I'm not advocating that there will be no temptation. Certainly that wouldn't be the case. If Jesus was tempted by Satan, then why would we ever imagine we get a pass?

39:49

That's not what we're saying. No one's suggesting that that living in obedience is easy.

39:56

It's not always easy. It's often difficult. There is a battle to take place.

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I'm also not advocating that you must be entirely sanctified, as Jeremiah is saying, to be able to say no to temptation.

40:11

This is actually the practice of a born -again believer. This is what

40:17

God calls us to do. All right. Well, look at 1 John, for example, back in chapter 3.

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He went through that. He said, whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil. It doesn't say that whoever makes a practice of sinning is not entirely sanctified.

40:32

He says, no, no, they're actually of the devil. If you practice sinning, how often?

40:38

Well, Brother Jeremiah says you have to do it daily. All right. And so if you're daily doing that, by all definitions, that is the practice of sinning.

40:49

All right. And John, 1 John chapter 3 is clear. This means that you're of the devil.

40:56

You're children of the devil, not children of God. All right. So to be totally free from known sin in this life and by God's grace, it is to not willingly and purposely and deliberately violate

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God's will. Your nature, you might be in the flesh, which means that you might have the sinful nature even, but God's grace is greater than our sinful nature in this life.

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This is the good news, that the Spirit of God is available to you in this life.

41:32

All right. 1 John, he quoted from 1 John chapter 1, verses 6 through 10. You know, we've got to ask, what does it mean to walk in the light as he is in the light?

41:43

All right. Jeremiah says walking in the light doesn't mean that you're not sinning. You can walk in the light while you continue to sin.

41:52

But John's saying, no, no. If you're walking in sin, that's walking in darkness.

41:59

That's the exact opposite of walking in the light. So I want to make that that clear as well.

42:06

All right. Let me let me let me touch on a few things in my remaining time. You'll hear Jeremiah maybe he hasn't done much today, but but conflate and use the word perfect out of context or apply it to me or my position.

42:20

Now, that's a good work. It's a good ploy in this debate because the word perfect comes with all kinds of baggage that we bring to it culturally.

42:32

All right. So it's got this absolutist terminology. I absolutely reject the notion.

42:39

And I've heard people say, well, I'm not perfect. I'm trying to think. I don't think I've ever met somebody and said, oh,

42:46

I came across somebody perfect here. You know, and I'm sure Jeremiah has not thought, man, this Jerry Henry guy, he's perfect.

42:52

All right. We're not talking about an absolute kind of perfection here. We're talking about the perfect work of God in our lives.

43:01

We're not talking about flesh dependency. We're talking about spirit dependency.

43:08

So don't let the word perfect be used as kind of a red herring in this debate or kind of bait and switch to kind of change what the word means all the time.

43:17

We maybe talk about that because Jesus did say be perfect as as as I'm perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

43:24

And that's that's not implying that we should have an adoption of the absolutist kind of a mentality.

43:31

All right. So we are called to repent of our sins, which means we change our mind about sin.

43:40

I think that when we change our mind about sin, John the Baptist said there's fruit in keeping with repentance.

43:48

I think Jeremiah would agree with that. He just wouldn't go to the the place where he would say that that consistently takes place, that I can choose to live a life of repentance where I consistently change my mind about sin in terms of I choose to say no to sin.

44:06

I'm going to continue to take God's provided way of escape when faced with temptation, not just once, not just twice, not just to get out of a bad place that I found myself in because of my sin, but to consistently choose

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God's way of escape empowered by the Holy Spirit. Now, to to advocate, excuse me, to advocate for this gradually doing better over time is really to advocate for a kind of a worse righteousness where I am fighting sin on my own in my flesh.

44:42

And so that's why my victory is not perfect. I don't know what that means exactly, either victorious or you're not.

44:48

But my victory is not perfect. I'm not I'm winning, but not really overcoming sin.

44:54

I'm practicing sin, but I'm not practicing sin. Those those things, that's works of the righteous.

44:59

I'm saying not that you can do this in the flesh, but that those that have been born of God, born of the

45:06

Spirit, are people born of the Spirit. And the Spirit is advocating for and working this in our life.

45:14

And that was eight minutes. And now we have the Reformed Baptist, Jeremiah Nortier, giving his eight minute rebuttal.

45:24

And he is, once again, opposing the thesis, Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life.

45:34

You now have eight minutes for your rebuttal, Pastor Jeremiah Nortier. Thanks so much,

45:41

Chris. Jared, I appreciate it. A lot of what you said. I want to try to touch on as many things as I was able to capture.

45:50

Maybe let's start with this. You said Jesus was our example. And I want to say, yes, He is our perfect example.

45:57

So let's kind of define again how we ought to be using the word perfect, because I got accused of using red herrings in this.

46:07

I just want us to understand teleos means being fully developed or complete in a moral sense.

46:14

Jared, if you don't like it, take it up with BDAG, most respected Greek lexicon that we have. Obviously, we still have to look at context and so forth.

46:21

But when you want to warn people about me imploring the term perfect, it's exactly the thing that, yes,

46:28

I'm warning people of saying the deeper presuppositions that when we're talking about you can be freed from all known sin, well, you actually believe that you can perfectly love

46:38

God and love neighbor. Those are the exact commands that I would ask people. Are you doing that perfectly? The way that perfection is grounded in God who cannot sin?

46:48

Everyone understands. Most people understand that, no, we fall short of the bar of being able to perfectly love

46:54

God and love neighbor. That's the thing that you think Christians can do. When you said that I don't think you're perfect, well, yesterday it was a surprise to me that I was talking with someone that has completely tamed the tongue.

47:08

So, yeah, I was kind of surprised that you take that approach, that you inwardly are perfect to some degree and can exercise that kind of self -control, not just in stumbling, making human errors.

47:18

James 3 talks about evil speech. It's an unruly evil. No man can tame the tongue.

47:24

Of course, it's not how it ought to be because it is sin against God. Now, I actually think you appealing to Jesus being our example totally undercuts your position.

47:35

So let's go back to 1 John 3 where we read in verse 5, you know that he appeared in order to take away sins.

47:46

In Jesus, there is no sin. Well, it's interesting. I want everybody to hear how he didn't want to say we're not debating about sinful nature or anything like that.

47:56

We'd love to debate those things another time. Jared, unfortunately, these things all overlap and are interconnected because your best efforts in obedience will always be touched knowingly by your flesh.

48:07

This is the whole point. Why is there no sin in Jesus? Because he did not have a sinful nature.

48:13

You prove my case there. Now, something that you are misrepresenting me. Now, this is kind of the crux of the debate.

48:20

He thinks if our acts of obedience is tainted with sin, then he's accusing me of saying, see,

48:26

Jeremiah's advocating that you can just go practice it headlong and willfully do it. Jared, I don't think you understand the context of how the apostle

48:34

John is talking about practicing sin versus practicing righteousness. You got to think there's two examples here.

48:41

You got Jesus and you have Satan. Satan only chooses sin, does sin continually without the possibility of choosing righteousness.

48:51

Ain't going to happen. Even when Christ commanded the demons to leave a vessel and go into pigs, they were not obeying in righteousness from a heart of reverence with a transformed heart that wants to obey him.

49:05

They did the external acts, but it's got to be more than that. It's got to be from the inward desire as well. So unbelievers practice sin in terms of that's what they plan to do.

49:15

That's what they love it. They do it continually. And when they think they've done something moral, it's fool's gold.

49:21

Okay. Now for the child of God, we practice righteousness, not as we're being perfect.

49:28

That's why we're practicing it. We're getting better at it. And so when we choose to do something victorious as 1

49:34

John 5, I have to back you up into chapter 3. It is victorious, but it's not an ultimate victory that lies in the perfected life of glorification.

49:44

You are promising something to people that can only be achieved in glory. It's a false sales pitch, complete sanctification, being able to be freed from all known sin.

49:55

That is a deception according to John in the first chapter.

50:01

So when we say practicing righteousness, I want you to understand what's on the table.

50:06

I'm sorry you don't want to talk about it, but human nature still exists. This meat suit that's at special price at ChrisArnzen .com.

50:15

That will touch even our best acts of obedience. Therefore, when you knowingly do righteousness, it's always touched by sin.

50:24

And so that's why the proposition is wrong. When you say habitual, known, voluntary acts, well, me and you have a different understanding of the sinfulness of sin.

50:34

Now, you keep talking about how the Holy Spirit and God's grace is greater than our sin. Absolutely, that's why we're being sanctified in this life to one day reach perfection.

50:45

Now, we might return back to 1 John. I had to put on my preaching hat a little bit there.

50:51

We're both fellow preachers, so we share a kindred spirit. Now, something you said, maybe I don't get the exact wording, but for you, you think that it's still practicing sin.

51:01

If we're not able to carry out the command to obey God. And I want to tell you, that's what

51:08

Paul said in Romans 7, verse 18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me.

51:15

He's a born -again believer, right? The law has convicted his heart. He knows he needs a

51:20

Savior, his testimony earlier in this chapter. But as a mature Christian, mind you, because he has knowledge of sin, he has knowledge of God's holiness.

51:29

He feels conviction. For I now know that nothing good dwells in me. That is this meat soup, my flesh.

51:36

For I have the desire, Jared, to do what is right. And here's what I think the crux of our debate is, but not the ability to carry it out.

51:46

Carry what out? Perfection, obedience to worship God in our works that is worthy do

51:52

His name. So continuing to read on into Romans 8 does not save you,

51:58

Jared. So I took note of Romans 8, 14. You're just bringing your baggage and your presuppositions to being free from all known sin into looking at this verse.

52:08

Actually, it is Romans 8, starting in verse 12. So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh, but to live according to the flesh.

52:20

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But if the spirit you have put to death, the deeds of the body, you will live.

52:29

This is the earlier context, Jared, that when the Holy Spirit indwells you, you now can choose righteousness.

52:37

You can now choose obedience because you serve a new king. But those acts of obedience will never be totally rid of the principle of sin that exists in your members.

52:48

It is true we can live according to the Spirit because He fuels us, not perfectly.

52:54

Let me remind you of the term perfect again in the Greek, being fully developed, complete in a moral sense.

53:03

We already talked about yesterday how that is achieved at the resurrection. That is achieved in the life to come.

53:09

That's why, Jared, Paul goes on in Romans 8 to say, we long for glory, the redemption of our bodies.

53:17

So Romans 8 is one of my favorite chapters because this is not carried on a stick. This is called our future blessed hope that fuels us to live each and every day to the glory of God.

53:27

And so I'll kind of conclude with verse 30 here in chapter 8. For those who have been predestined, He also called. And those whom

53:32

He called, He justified. And those whom He justified, He also glorified. It is a guarantee to take place.

53:39

Thank you so much. Thank you, Pastor Jeremiah. We are now going to our midway commercial break.

53:45

So please stay tuned because there's a lot more left in this program and this debate.

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a

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Welcome back. Before I return to this exciting debate we're having between Nazarene Jared K.

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Henry and Reformed Baptist Jeremiah Nortier, on the theme that Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life.

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and put I Need a Church in the subject line. And we are now back with the second half of today's debate, which is day number two of the second debate between these two men,

01:09:00

Nazarene Pastor Jared K. Henry and Reformed Baptist Pastor Jeremiah Nortier. We have now reached the most beloved section of any debate that I've ever arranged, and that is the cross -examination period.

01:09:16

Today, we have reversed the order from what we did yesterday. We now have

01:09:21

Jared K. Henry opening up with his own 12 -minute cross -examination of Pastor Jeremiah Nortier.

01:09:29

And please, will the one cross -examining only ask questions and not give speeches or just teach and preach?

01:09:40

And will the one answering questions only answer questions and not ask questions of his own, unless he is just asking a clarification question, like, what do you mean by that, or could you repeat that?

01:09:55

So now, Pastor Jared K. Henry, who is affirming the thesis that Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life, you now have 12 minutes to cross -examine

01:10:11

Pastor Jeremiah Nortier. You may begin. You start my plot.

01:10:18

I'm sorry. I want to start out by saying, just start out with maybe some simple ones that will lead us someplace.

01:10:27

Do you believe that Adam and Eve were created with a sinful nature? No. Okay.

01:10:35

How do you think that they sinned without the sinful nature? So I believe they were created in a blameless, upright state.

01:10:45

And so I believe they truly were worshiping God, loving God, in a state that was truly honoring and pleasing to Him because they did not have a sinful nature.

01:10:54

So when they willfully chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, it says their eyes were opened.

01:10:59

And so I believe Romans says that's the moment where sin now reigned in man's members, and we all come out of that corrupt soil.

01:11:10

All right. So you mentioned earlier that Jesus, the reason He didn't sin was because He had a sinful nature.

01:11:17

Would you say that it's probable, or He didn't have a sinful nature? Would you say that it was more than just the fact that He didn't have a sinful nature if Adam and Eve didn't have a sinful nature either?

01:11:28

No, Jesus is the God -man. So I don't think it was possible for Jesus to sin as where we see the possibility coming to fruition with Adam and Eve.

01:11:37

So I don't want to preach that. I understand the question. Yeah, no, I'm with you so far.

01:11:43

I'm just kind of clarifying some things. So what is the sin in the members of our body that you refer to, just for clarity's sake?

01:11:51

I think I'm with you, but what do you mean by that? Yeah, so Paul calls it the namas, which could be law, which it could mean authority.

01:12:00

It could mean principle. And so all I mean is that this meat suit, as Chris Arnzen likes to say, it is intermixed with every action that we do.

01:12:15

So even the Christians' best efforts are mixed with that. Remember I said you can go painting for gold, but it's going to be mixed with dirty water and impurities.

01:12:24

I'm saying that's the Christian life is where the unbeliever, it's only fool's gold. Yeah, so you're saying that you could do the right thing with the wrong motive in other words.

01:12:37

No, I think for the Christians, since we've been born again, we have God -honoring motives. But even in our best

01:12:43

God -honoring motives, it's still touched by that principle of sin. Do you think that God can change those desires?

01:12:54

Absolutely. So do you distinguish then between this fallen state?

01:13:03

Would you call this the sinful nature? Is that fair to do? Can I do that with you and we're on the same page there?

01:13:08

Yeah, but we have a redeemed fallen nature, if that makes sense. Okay, yeah, but you can be a

01:13:16

Christian, I would agree, and still have a fallen nature. I agree with that. Yes, and in this sense, we have an outer man that's perishing, but we have an inner man that's being renewed day by day.

01:13:27

From one degree of glory to the next. Amen. So do you distinguish then between the sinful nature and personal sin?

01:13:38

Do you think that there's a difference? I think there's a difference, but they are inextricably linked.

01:13:44

That's why our best efforts will always be mixed with that principle of sin.

01:13:50

Now, you said earlier that you believed Adam and Eve did not have a sinful nature, and yet they committed personal sin.

01:13:57

Are you necessitating that connection? Are you saying it has to be connected?

01:14:03

After the fall, yes. Why did things change after the fall in terms of that connection?

01:14:10

Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate that question. I'll try to keep this short. Because, you know, Adam was blameless upright, but when he sinned, it says there,

01:14:19

Adam and Eve, their eyes were opened. And so Romans 5 through 7 talks about, you now have a new principle, a new namas that pervades in mankind's members.

01:14:31

And before you're born again, you can only serve that master. You can only, you know, search around for fool's gold.

01:14:36

But when you are born again of the Spirit and dwelt by the Spirit, we can now choose righteousness.

01:14:42

But in this life, it's still mixed with that sinful principle. Would you agree that the second

01:14:49

Adam is Jesus? Amen. Yes. Right? Biblically, a description of Jesus is the second

01:14:55

Adam. And do you think that the work of the second Adam is greater than the work of the first Adam?

01:15:04

Yes. Yeah. And, however, is it fair to say that you believe that this work of the second

01:15:13

Adam is only impactful after this life is over? No, I think there's an already, not yet.

01:15:21

We are experiencing the glimpses of the age to come. We are experiencing glimpses of that here and now.

01:15:29

But this is where I promise I'm not trying to misrepresent you when I say this is my position. I don't believe we can obtain perfection in this life.

01:15:37

And now when I say perfection, I mean a perfect love for God and a perfect love for neighbor. I think that exists in a life to come.

01:15:42

But because of what Jesus said, we can experience glimpses of that. Like Hebrews talks about, we can taste of the age to come here and now.

01:15:52

But we await for that complete work and glory at his return. Do you think that Adam and Eve had a perfect love for God before the fall?

01:16:03

Yeah, without a sinful nature, I think we would agree that they were able to love

01:16:09

God in a God -honoring way. Alright, so again, is it at what level does

01:16:19

Adam's sin, I agree that he introduced the fall, okay. But to what degree does

01:16:27

Jesus, is Jesus maybe, it's probably not fair to say, is he unable to deal with the consequences of the fall in this life?

01:16:39

Jesus, tell me if this answers your question directly, I'm trying here. So when Jesus took on flesh, it was through the virgin birth.

01:16:45

So he did not have a sin -curdled body. Therefore, when he perfectly obeyed God, it was not intermixed with a principle of sin.

01:16:54

And so I wanted to read earlier 1 John 3 that says, one day we will be like that, where we will not sin in any way, shape or form.

01:17:04

But I believe that's reserved for glory. So do you think that when

01:17:10

Paul says, you know, that I'm crucified with Christ, is there like the old man?

01:17:16

He talks about the old man being crucified. There's death to self, death to the flesh, living to the spirit.

01:17:24

It just seems like death seems pretty final. And you're suggesting maybe that it's not.

01:17:29

Is that correct? Uh, close. I want to be charitable with this interaction. I believe what

01:17:35

Paul's articulating is a process because Paul still had to physically die. And that was a result of not only his past sin, but the principle of sin that exists in his fleshly body.

01:17:45

So I think when we say I've died to Christ, to live for Christ, that's the disposition of the

01:17:52

Christian's life, like 1 John talks about. We practice righteousness in a less than imperfect way. Now, I mean, you mean different things when we say that, because I'm emphasizing our sinful tendency in everything that we do because of this flesh that we have.

01:18:07

Yeah. Would you say that when you use the word flesh, you're not just, you're saying more than just like physical flesh because Adam and Eve, physical flesh, you know, you're saying the sinful nature.

01:18:20

Yeah. The principle of sin, the concept of the fallen myth of humanity or whatever.

01:18:27

And so do you think Paul uses flesh in the same way? Yes. I mean,

01:18:32

I think I'm I mean this in love, not a perfect love, but I think I'm rightly understanding Paul.

01:18:38

And I think the other side that says that we can be free from all of it, I think, is misunderstanding Paul and John.

01:18:45

So was Paul promising something that could never happen when he said, for example, in Romans eight, verse three, for God has done what the law weakened by the flesh.

01:18:57

You're taught. I would agree with that. You would agree with that weakened by the flesh, could not do the flesh, could not in the flesh.

01:19:04

By sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh as well.

01:19:13

He condemned it in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh.

01:19:22

So we're not walking in light of that flesh, but according to the spirit.

01:19:27

So how do you distinguish? Now, you keep trying to do this, but I'm having a hard time understanding. Like you're not walking according to the flesh, but you're saying now you can't help but walk according to the flesh.

01:19:37

OK, what are you saying there? Yeah, I mean, you just have deeper presupposition. So I'll articulate how

01:19:42

I understand that. So Jesus, perfect God, man, he was perfectly righteous and thoughtward. Indeed, everything that he did, he could not even fail.

01:19:51

The possibility wasn't there to disobey the father. Now, some people actually disagree. I'm saying it ain't going to happen because like we said in 1

01:20:00

John 1 5, God is light and in him there is no darkness. That goes for Jesus Christ as well.

01:20:05

So what Jesus accomplished, there was only one person that could do that in this fallen world, and it was him, the

01:20:11

God maker. And so my point is Jesus accomplished what we could not do.

01:20:18

And so when we live a spirit -filled life, we are free. And this is where me and you just mean different things when we say the same terminology.

01:20:26

We are free to obey. We are free to pursue righteousness. But I'm retaining,

01:20:33

I feel like what 1 John and Paul says here, with that principle of sin that still exists in our members.

01:20:40

That's why we long to shed this body. All right, let me ask you a couple more questions.

01:20:46

I'll try to be quick with these. The Bible describes a number of people as blameless. You've said that nobody could be blameless earlier.

01:20:54

Paul in Philippians chapter 3 says, as to righteousness under the law, I was blameless. This was actually, he talked about this in his pre -conversion.

01:21:03

So he was saying I could say no to sin and lawlessness before I was a

01:21:09

Christian. I was blameless. Noah was described as blameless. In what ways are they blameless?

01:21:14

In what ways would you say that they're not? Yeah, there's others too, but go ahead. Yeah, great question, because we can find this more.

01:21:22

And after I listened to some of your sermons, I did a deep study on this. So blameless, number one, has Hebrew etymology roots.

01:21:29

It just means to have integrity. It doesn't mean freed from all known sin or anything like that. I will say that Philippians 3,

01:21:35

Paul said that as a Pharisee, a Pharisee, and we would say he was wrong. I mean, his whole conversion process, in fact,

01:21:41

I'd actually point to Romans 7, when true knowledge of sin came to bear, he realized he was not blameless to the law.

01:21:49

So I appreciate you bringing up that passage because I would say Pharisees wrongly think that they have perfect integrity, that they are freed from all known sin.

01:21:58

And I think the law, which is wholly righteous and good and is grounded in God, to the one who is born again, we realize we cannot obtain the fullness of that in this life.

01:22:08

And we are now out of time. Now it is Jeremiah Nortier, the

01:22:14

Reformed Baptist pastor in this debate, who is opposing the thesis that Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life.

01:22:25

He will now have 12 minutes of cross -examination with Jared K.

01:22:31

Henry, the Nazarene, who is affirming the thesis. You may begin your 12 minutes.

01:22:39

Thank you, Chris. Now, this first question, I think we're on the same page here. I just want to double -check. When Jesus did acts of obedience, when he practiced righteousness to the

01:22:47

Father, was that righteousness mixed with a sin -cursed flesh? You're talking about Jesus?

01:22:55

Correct. Yeah, no, I don't think so. In this life, are we able to follow that example?

01:23:05

The example of what? His lifestyle? His obedience that's not mixed with a sin -cursed flesh.

01:23:12

Are we able to follow that example now? By the power of the Holy Spirit, yes.

01:23:18

Okay, so we are able by the power of the Spirit to pursue righteousness the same way

01:23:23

Jesus did, who did not have a sin -cursed flesh. Because of the work that he does in our life, yes.

01:23:32

That he can cleanse us and make us holy, that we can walk with him.

01:23:37

It's not what we do in the flesh, it's what we do by the power of the Spirit. My last question on this is, so when you think we can be totally free from all known sin, does our sin -cursed flesh still exist?

01:23:53

I think that it can exist. When you're born again, you still have the sinful nature.

01:24:01

But the expectation and the call of God is still that we don't live in willful sin. So yesterday you told me, and I appreciate you answering the question, that you personally were freed from all known sin.

01:24:13

My question now today is, would you not identify here in the present as being a sinner?

01:24:24

I would say that I once was lost, but now I'm found. I'm now walking with God.

01:24:31

So yes, my past was sin, but now I identify as a child of God.

01:24:37

Thank you. But to get really good clarity on my question, presently you would not identify as a sinner?

01:24:45

I would not identify as a sinner, no. A sinner is someone who practices sin.

01:24:51

Okay, so in 1 Timothy 1 .15, if you want to start turning there, Paul says,

01:24:57

Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am she, for I am the foremost.

01:25:04

When Paul says, I am, what tense did he say that in this verse? He's saying that in all of his, even in his past,

01:25:15

I still hold the title of that I was once a sinner. I persecuted the church. I was killing people.

01:25:22

What tense did Paul say, I am, in this verse? That is present tense.

01:25:31

So now getting into what you wanted to preempt, Paul in your mind was free from all known sin, and yet he would have no problem identifying in the present as a sinner.

01:25:44

Is that right? Yeah, he presently identified that his life had sin in it, and he's not denying that.

01:25:52

He's not denying his old way of life. I have another question. His point is simply this, that he was the chiefest of sinners, and that he had committed some grievous sins.

01:26:03

And you agree that he didn't say I was the chief of sinners after he was free from all known sin, something that you would say that you would not identify as a sinner, but Paul did not.

01:26:13

Would you agree that he did not say I was the chief of sinners? I got more questions. Yeah, I'd agree with that.

01:26:19

I would affirm Saul's stance, not that he's continuing in his sin.

01:26:25

Jared says, Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness.

01:26:33

Sin is lawlessness. So since sin is violating a command of God, do you think when

01:26:40

God gives a command, he intends for the possibility for it to be obeyed entirely?

01:26:50

Yeah, he will divinely provide the means to fulfill his will. Right, okay.

01:26:56

So when God gave the law to Israel, was it possible for them to obey it and have everlasting life?

01:27:07

Before Christ? Well, God gave a command before Christ, right?

01:27:13

We're talking about you just said when God gives a command, he will provide a way to obey it, right?

01:27:19

Yeah, we're not living in the Old Testament. The good news is that Jesus ascended to heaven. He gave his

01:27:25

Holy Spirit. So you're saying in the Old Covenant, it was okay for God to give a command that he did not fully expect people to obey?

01:27:34

No, that's not what he was doing. Okay, but this is my question. When God gives a command, does he expect the possibility for someone to obey it entirely?

01:27:45

A second ago, you said yes. Are you going to stay with that? Yes, today, yes.

01:27:53

In the New Testament, yeah. No, no, no. I'm saying whenever God gives a command, does he expect somebody for the possibility of obeying it entirely?

01:28:03

Did that change with God before and after the cross? I don't think that, yeah, it did.

01:28:09

You can't skip over Pentecost. You can't skip over the fact that Jesus said, I'm giving you my

01:28:15

Holy Spirit. Me and you have two different systematic theologies, biblical theologies. So you think

01:28:20

God could give a command in the Old Testament and not expect people to obey it? But now, after the cross and after Pentecost, God can.

01:28:28

Okay, but you see, this is where you're not being consistent with my question. When God gives a command, either

01:28:33

Old Testament or New Testament, did he expect the possibility of somebody obeying it entirely, yes or no?

01:28:40

Yes, he did. I think he expected that. And there were people who did obey him, and it was counted. They believed and trusted him.

01:28:46

So you see how we're back to square one. We're back to square one. Because I asked you, when God gave the law to Israel and said, obey these commands, do this and you shall live, and the

01:28:56

New Testament says that means inherit eternal life, God expected the possibility that someone in Israel could actually obey the entirety of the law?

01:29:06

By his grace. What do you mean by his grace? Let me answer your question.

01:29:13

Let me answer your question. What I'm saying is that you are leaving out. You're trying to push away the reality that Jesus, when he came, he provided for us the gift of the

01:29:25

Holy Spirit at work. So what we're talking about now is that we have spirit in our obedience.

01:29:35

So, number one, do you think the spirit was present in the Old Testament? Yeah. Okay, so it was possible in the

01:29:41

Old Testament for an Israelite to obey the entirety of the law, yes? I think it was possible for people to obey

01:29:49

God and live a blameless life. Job was one recognized as such. We already talked about some of the first son that did that.

01:29:56

So it's a possibility, yes. Okay, then if you think it's a possibility, number one, did you know that's called

01:30:02

Pelagianism historically? That's my first question. Well, you'll have to define

01:30:09

Pelagianism. I feel like we have a definition of Pelagianism. And number two, since you think it's a possibility to obey the entirety of the law, then tell me if this sounds like a possibility in Romans 3 .20.

01:30:22

For by the works of the law, no human being will be justified in his sight.

01:30:30

So was it still a possibility? I'm not saying that adherence to the law saves you.

01:30:37

I'm saying that Paul said it was possible to obey. I said it was possible to obey. I didn't say that means that you were saved.

01:30:43

I did not say that meant that you were saved. I'm just saying that it's possible. I asked you that earlier, you said yes.

01:30:51

No, no, no, no, no. Okay, I don't know. Did obedience to the law. No, no, I'm not. I'm asking a very specific question.

01:30:58

Did obedience to the law promise that you would have life with God? No, obedience to the law is not salvation.

01:31:10

Leviticus 18 says, If you do this, all the laws, then you shall live.

01:31:15

Did Jesus not tell us that that means to inherit eternal life? Oh, that does it.

01:31:24

Adherence to the law does not redeem you. It is not salvific. All right.

01:31:29

The blood of Jesus is what they know. How would people be blameless then?

01:31:37

Because you don't understand blameless. You think it means freed from all known sin. My next question is, when Jesus listed the commandments to the rich young ruler.

01:31:46

And the rich young ruler said, all these I've kept from my youth.

01:31:51

Did he think he was free from all known sin? Of course he did.

01:31:57

That's exactly what he was saying. Was he self -deceived? Was he self -deceived?

01:32:03

No one is advocating that moral behavior saves you. That's what you're trying to get me to say,

01:32:09

I guess. Was he self -deceived that he kept the law? I don't think he was.

01:32:14

Jesus did not refute him. He said, one thing you lack. Okay, this is my question, Jared. Do you think the rich young ruler kept the law?

01:32:23

If he hadn't, Jesus would have said, no, you've not kept it. Well, he exposed the one thing that he wasn't keeping, which is he loved his possessions.

01:32:31

So is he not exposing that he, in fact, did not keep the law? No, what you, your misunderstanding is that it's somehow you could keep the law.

01:32:43

Vidicus 18 says, if you obey the law, then you shall live. That would inherit eternal life.

01:32:50

Do you agree with that? No, no, no, no. Live. There's a natural blessing in obedience to Jesus, whether you're a

01:32:56

Christian or not. If you obey the ways of God, there's a natural blessing in that. So, hypothetically, my time is running out.

01:33:04

Hypothetically, if someone perfectly obeyed the entirety of the law for their whole life, would they earn eternal life?

01:33:12

Yes or no? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Okay, well, I'm sorry to tell you, but that's what Jesus did on our behalf.

01:33:18

My next question is, since you have a perfect love. No, no, no. Hold on. Hold on. I got a question. I got a minute left here.

01:33:24

No, I'm going to answer your question. Jesus did not earn his own salvation. He was spotless and pure. When we talk about a perfect love, you said you perfectly love

01:33:32

God and love neighbor. Can your perfect love increase? Quantity, not quality.

01:33:42

So, there's a sense in which you can increase in your perfect love. The quantity, but the quality is a pureness of heart.

01:33:55

In other words, you can have 100 % of something, but that can grow and still be 100%.

01:34:03

So, again, you're using perfect as an absolutist kind of a word. I'm using it as a fullness, a matureness.

01:34:10

So, I can't use it as being fully developed or complete in a moral sense? You wouldn't like that definition?

01:34:16

Fully and complete. And it can still increase? I believe you can love the

01:34:23

Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and sense. Completely with your heart, you can love the Lord. And that love can grow.

01:34:28

Will that increase? Sure. Then how is it perfect if it can grow? Because it's not an absolutist perfection.

01:34:37

It's a completeness. It's complete. So, it's growing out of its completeness. And we are now out of time for that 12 -minute segment.

01:34:44

And we are going to our final commercial break. When we return, each of our debaters are going to have eight -minute closing remarks.

01:34:54

Don't go away. We're going to be right back. I'm Dr.

01:35:03

Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

01:35:14

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

01:35:21

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:35:39

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

01:35:45

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

01:35:55

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:36:02

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:36:11

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:36:25

This is

01:36:41

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:36:46

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

01:36:51

Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:37:08

Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

01:37:14

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:37:28

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:37:37

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:37:46

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

01:37:51

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

01:38:24

...have been sticking with or switching to the NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina, and the

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01:39:57

Welcome back, and now it is time for each of our debaters to give their eight -minute closing remarks, and we will begin with the

01:40:06

Nazarene, Pastor Jared K. Henry, you may begin now. Thank you,

01:40:14

Brother Chris. Thank you again, Brother Jeremiah. You kind of poked me a little bit on this last time on these questions, so I want to kind of respond before you're going to make me out like a heretic here.

01:40:26

I would distinguish between the legal issues and righteousness, all right?

01:40:34

Now, in salvation, when we're born again, we are justified. We are adopted into the family of God.

01:40:42

We experience regeneration. But the legal issues are dealt with not just on known sins, but anything that is a violation of the law, all right?

01:40:57

So when the rich young ruler came to Jesus, Jesus didn't address him on any unknown shortcomings or his sinful nature.

01:41:08

He dealt with, have you done the law? He didn't challenge the rich young ruler in terms of the law, but he did say, there's one thing else missing.

01:41:18

Go sell everything that you have. Why? Then he dealt with the issue of the heart. So what

01:41:26

I'm trying to say is you can obey the law and still miss heaven.

01:41:31

There will be people who will be sober all their lives, but they're going to break hell wide open.

01:41:39

And there can be people who've never stolen anything, and they're still going to miss heaven, all right?

01:41:45

Because it's our relationship with Jesus that is essential.

01:41:50

How do you get into a relationship? You can't get into a relationship if you're an enemy of God. You must be justified.

01:41:57

That's the legal thing. But Jeremiah is conflating the legal and the relational need, all right?

01:42:04

That's why Paul was saying, I followed the law to the letter. He said,

01:42:10

I was blameless. Jeremiah says, no, he wasn't really. He just said that. But no, he didn't follow.

01:42:16

Yeah. But what was the problem? He didn't have a relationship with God. All right.

01:42:21

He thought following the law was the relationship and it wasn't. All right.

01:42:27

So let me say it this way. You can still have a terrible marriage without ever committing adultery.

01:42:33

You can be never step out on your spouse one time and still have a terrible marriage and not even be, you know, terrible.

01:42:43

But you cannot have a good marriage while continuing to be unfaithful to your spouse.

01:42:49

That's simply what I'm saying. I'm saying that you can have a terrible relationship.

01:42:58

You can be an enemy of God. All right. And not be in right relationship with God, but yet not do willful transgressions against God.

01:43:09

But you cannot have a good marriage while continuing to practice sin and be unfaithful to the

01:43:18

Lord as the bride of Christ. All right. So don't equate victory over willful sin as somehow that's holiness.

01:43:24

There are some people who might have victory over and freedom from saying, like,

01:43:31

I'm not going to steal. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to whatever. But.

01:43:38

Righteousness and holiness is not just absence of sin, it's fullness of relationship.

01:43:46

All right. But absence of willful sin is a necessity for that relationship.

01:43:51

So Jesus was sinless and Jesus was sinless, not because he earned salvation for himself, but because somebody had to pay for our sin.

01:44:03

All right. That's why John saying, you know, whoever says that he's without sin is a liar.

01:44:08

It didn't say anybody who said they are without willful sin. Though in my life, my past,

01:44:15

I had willful sin. I willfully chose to sin against God. I violated the will of God and I did things out of a rebellious heart.

01:44:25

Jeremiah rightly notes that that rebellious heart is important to note because it is an influence, the flesh, the fallen nature.

01:44:34

But when one is born again, all is clear. We don't live according to flesh any longer.

01:44:41

Not just that we don't live according to flesh part time, but this is our full time endeavor and privilege as the spirit works in our life to live not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.

01:44:57

This is the good news. You say, well, I'm a believer. I'm living in willful sin. Repent of your sin, willful sin, and ask the

01:45:06

Holy Spirit to empower you not to continue in willful sin.

01:45:13

Do I identify as a sinner? No, I don't. I don't identify as a sinner any longer. I identify as a child of God.

01:45:19

I'm a spirit filled believer of Jesus. If I do sin, then

01:45:25

I repent of it. I'm not suggesting arrogance or pride in the flesh.

01:45:31

That's certainly what the flesh might want. I'm suggesting total dependence, surrender to the work of the spirit in my life so that he can empower me to live in the way in which he's called us to live.

01:45:46

Galatians chapter 5, I think that Jeremiah brought this up to the vague verse 16 or verse 17.

01:45:53

He said, for the desires of the flesh are against the spirit. The desires of the spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other to keep you from doing what the doing the things you want to do.

01:46:04

All right. But you got to take that in context to verse 16. I say walk by the spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

01:46:16

You won't gratify. Is that a part time endeavor? Brother Jeremiah would say, yes, it's part time endeavor.

01:46:22

It's a partial thing. But Paul saying you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

01:46:28

How do you do that? Verse 24 of the same chapter, Galatians chapter 5. For those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh.

01:46:39

Let's kill the flesh, the cause of the trouble and the problems with its passions and its desires.

01:46:45

Those passions and desires of sinful fallen nature can be crucified.

01:46:52

The flesh could be crucified. We can live by the spirit. This is the good news that I wish every believer could understand.

01:47:00

You don't have to continue and persist in your willful sin against the

01:47:06

Lord. Are you going to be perfect? Nobody thinks you're perfect, but you can live according to the spirit.

01:47:14

You can say yes to the Lord. Jesus gave an option to the rich and the man. It is what it is.

01:47:19

What's holding you back? It's your love of the money. You can let go of that love of money and you can say yes.

01:47:25

But he went away sad because of it. Paul said, not me. I'm going to crucify the flesh. I've struggled with this long enough as a believer.

01:47:32

I've struggled with and allowed the flesh. I'm not going to allow this tiger to just kind of try to tame the tiger and keep it because at the first chance that tiger is going to maul me.

01:47:45

No, no. I'm going to crucify the tiger by the work of the spirit in my life. That's what

01:47:50

I'm suggesting. I'm not suggesting that adherence to the law somehow saves you.

01:47:55

No, no. I'm not even saying that's the purpose and the goal. The purpose and the goal of what

01:48:02

God wants to do in forgiveness is that we would be in relationship. And then as we walk with him in the light, there's not space for us to continue to try to tiptoe into darkness.

01:48:16

And you're out of time. And now it's the Reformed Baptist in the debate, Jeremiah Nortier.

01:48:22

It's your time for eight minutes of closing statements. Thanks so much,

01:48:30

Chris. And Jared, thank you for this interaction. I didn't mean to poke the bear, per se.

01:48:36

I hope I didn't knock you out of your complete sanctification with that. Something you said, something you said, there's a couple of things you said that kind of broke my heart.

01:48:48

But it's like, hey, iron sharpens iron. That's what we're here to do today. I want to say,

01:48:53

I don't think you understand the purpose of the law that was given. God is a just judge.

01:49:01

In Romans 2, God will render each one according to his works.

01:49:07

He goes on to say, those who by patient and well -doing seek glory and honor and immortality, for those that accomplish that, he will give them eternal life.

01:49:19

And so the point is, the law is wholly righteous and good if somebody could obey the law's demands.

01:49:29

Well, God is just. He would give them what is owed to them. God shows no partiality. He's a perfect judge.

01:49:35

He would give them everlasting life. But Romans 3 quotes the Old Testament and says, there's none good.

01:49:43

There's none righteous. No, not one. Jared, if somebody was able to obey the law perfectly, they would gain everlasting life, not just temporal rewards here and now.

01:49:57

God would bless them with an eternal inheritance. But the whole point, ever since the fall of Adam, when

01:50:05

God gave the law to Israel, I think you misunderstood my point. God gave a command that no man could obey.

01:50:11

And you might have been feeling how you trapped yourself when I asked you if God gives a command, does he expect the possibility for someone to obey it?

01:50:19

You said yes until I brought up the law, which no man is able to fulfill except the

01:50:25

God -man. And so that's the whole point of the law. It's to point us back to the perfect righteousness, the holiness of God, but our inability to fulfill the law's demands.

01:50:35

That's why by works of law, no human being will be justified because we cannot obey it. We cannot do it, not even in our best efforts because of this meat soup.

01:50:45

It's intermixed with sin. I do want to talk about the rich young ruler because I think,

01:50:51

Jared, I say this with love. I think you have the same heart problem that the rich young ruler has.

01:50:57

He thinks that he is blameless to the law, that he keeps it in a way that is truly honoring to God.

01:51:03

No, no, no. None is good. No, not one. But God and him alone. Listen, Jared, the rich young ruler was delusional.

01:51:11

He was self -deceived and Jesus put his finger on the heart problem. And you did say this a little bit earlier.

01:51:19

Someone could outwardly look like they're following the law, but if they're not doing it from the heart, then it's all for naught.

01:51:26

And here's the point. No person born of Adam in sinful flesh is able to do that.

01:51:33

And so that's what Jesus is saying. He says the rich young ruler came up to Jesus and teacher, what good deed must

01:51:39

I do to have inherit everlasting life? The context is not something temporal.

01:51:46

He said to him, why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good,

01:51:52

Jared, who is perfectly righteous and holy. It's like what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount. You shall be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

01:52:01

This side of eternity, we're not able to do that. Now, can we have a likeness when we love our enemies?

01:52:07

Does that reflect a transcendent love? You better believe it. But let's keep on going. Jesus said to him, why do you ask me about what is good?

01:52:14

There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, not a temporal life, but everlasting life, keep the commandments.

01:52:23

Now, Jesus is giving the rich young ruler an impossible demand.

01:52:29

Now, earlier, remember, Jared said that he is not a sinner. Presently, and that hurt my heart because the

01:52:37

Apostle Paul, who was freed from sin, he didn't mind in the present identifying as a sinner.

01:52:44

It's because he is both justified as a saint, and he's also warring against the flesh as a sinner.

01:52:52

That is the ongoing struggle that we face in this life. Jesus once again says to the rich young ruler, if you would enter eternal life, keep the commandments.

01:53:01

And what did he say? Which ones? And Jesus said, he took him through the list. Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal or bear false witness.

01:53:10

Pause. The Sermon on the Mount says that you must have perfect heart motives in carrying out these commands.

01:53:17

There's no one under the sun, no one born of Adam that is able to fulfill the law's demand.

01:53:23

This guy thought he perfectly honored his father and mother. I'd like to have a conversation with them. They'd be like, he hadn't done that.

01:53:29

And so we read, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Remember, Jared's position is that he does that perfectly, a perfect love for God and a perfect love for neighbor.

01:53:40

Listen, this side of glory, you will never be able to fulfill the law's demand. We need a perfect savior to accomplish that on our behalf.

01:53:49

And this young man said, all of these I have kept. Now, yes, Jesus didn't immediately say, no, you haven't.

01:53:56

Well, Jesus is smarter than that. And he addresses the heart problem, which debunks that he was able to meet the law's demands.

01:54:04

When Paul is a Pharisee, said that he was righteous, that he was blameless. Yes, Pharisees were self -deceived.

01:54:12

Jared, Romans 7 debunks that Paul had a wrong understanding of the law as a

01:54:18

Pharisee. And so when this particular Pharisee said, what do I still lack? Jesus said to him that if you would go sell all of your possessions, you would be perfect.

01:54:30

So, you know, I've been accused of abusing the word perfect. What Jesus is doing is saying that in order to have or inherit everlasting life, you must be perfect.

01:54:41

You must completely fulfill the law's demands, both inwardly of the heart and our external acts of obedience.

01:54:49

There was only one man to walk this earth that was able to do that. Hypothetically, if someone was able to meet the law's demands inwardly and outwardly.

01:54:57

Remember, love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength, the things that you carried out.

01:55:03

Well, then, yes, God is a just judge and you would inherit everlasting life. But Jesus puts the heart, brings out the heart of the problem and says, you can't do that.

01:55:14

He says, if you if you would love neighbor, right, if you would go sell all of your possessions to the poor and needy, then you would be perfect and you would have treasure in heaven.

01:55:24

Come and follow me. The rich young ruler was not able to count the cost and follow after Christ because it was too high of a demand.

01:55:32

And I just want to say, as you continue to read the rest of this context, the apostles were worried because they said, who then can be saved that because they realize that they, too, fall short of God's holy, righteous standard.

01:55:45

No one can fulfill the law's commands. And Jesus said there will be people that inherit eternal life.

01:55:51

And this is the gospel of grace that you don't look to your own obedience. You don't put it under the moniker of the

01:55:58

Holy Spirit working in us can free you from all known sin. No, we war against the flesh.

01:56:03

We will have temporal moments of victories, but it's imperfect. What Jared calls a carrot on the stick,

01:56:10

I just want to submit to you, is the Christian's future blessed hope. And we will be free from all known sin and the possibility of sin and glory.

01:56:18

There is not going to be any more sin. It's not even going to be a possibility because we will receive sweet fellowship with our

01:56:24

Savior for all eternity. Thank you so much. Alrighty, we have time for two audience questions, and we will give you each 30 seconds to respond to each of these questions.

01:56:37

In other words, the question that is intended for you. And we have

01:56:43

Coral May in Walnut Park, California. And Coral May in Walnut Park, California has a question for Jared K.

01:56:53

Henry. I didn't hear any mention of your total freedom from sins of omission.

01:57:00

If you claim to have achieved that, that would mean that you always do every single thing that you possibly could do.

01:57:08

You have 30 seconds. Yeah, so this is about the known will of God.

01:57:14

So this is about saying yes to the Lord. And so I think that you can live in a way where you say yes to Christ on a regular basis.

01:57:24

So does that mean that there may have been times in terms of my shortcomings or my unawareness or unintentionally that I missed an opportunity to do something that—well, not consciously.

01:57:38

I wouldn't do that. But if I'm consciously aware of something, again, the debate is about the known will of God and saying yes to that.

01:57:48

So that's 30 seconds. That's 30 seconds. And now we have

01:57:53

Terrence in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida. And this is a question for Jeremiah Nortier.

01:58:02

You Reformed people love to boast of the perfection of the redemption provided on Calvary's cross, which is why everyone for whom

01:58:13

Christ died, in your view, will be saved. But Reformed people also frequently talk about that the redemption

01:58:21

Christ provided was not only to free us from the penalty of sin, but from enslavement to it.

01:58:27

Why, then, wouldn't Pastor Jared's scenario be true if we have been perfectly freed from enslavement to sin?

01:58:37

Yeah, so the assumption came in at the end to be perfectly free from sin, and that's the whole problem.

01:58:44

It's just because Paul says we no longer have dominion over sin. He says that in Romans 6 as an imperative, something that we have to obey.

01:58:52

And so to the questioner, that means that we can now choose righteousness.

01:58:57

Sure, it's mixed with our sin -tainted flesh, therefore it's not obedient, but perfection belongs in the age to come when we are perfectly glorified.

01:59:05

Well, we are out of time. I want to thank you both for doing such remarkable jobs today, and I love the spirit of warmth and love that you truly generated, even though you are having some sharp and clear disagreements.

01:59:20

I want to remind our listeners of each of your websites.

01:59:26

Pastor Jared K. Henry's website is mackeynaz .org, M -A -C -K -E -Y -N -A -Z .org.

01:59:34

Pastor Jeremiah Nortier's website is 12fivechurch .com. That's the word 12, the numeral five, the word church .com.

01:59:42

I want everybody to have a safe, joyful, Christ -honoring weekend in Lord's Day, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater