November 30, 2022 Show with Dr. Joe Boot AND Joel Webbon on “The Mission of God: A Manifesto of Hope For Society”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 30th day of November 2022.

I'm thrilled to have on my program two guests for the very first time.

We have joining us today, Dr. Joe Boot, who served as founding pastor of Westminster Chapel in Toronto, Canada for 14 years, and is a

Christian thinker, cultural apologist and philosopher, and author, who is the founder and president of the

Ezra Institute for Contemporary Christianity. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Joe Boot. We also have on the program, for the full two hours,

Dr. Boot apparently can only be on with us for the first hour, but for the full two hours, we have Joel Webbin, president and founder of Right Response Ministries, and senior pastor of Covenant Bible Church in Georgetown, Texas.

He's going to be also addressing with Dr. Boot, The Mission of God, A Manifesto of Hope for Society, which is a book, a massive book, by Dr.

Joe Boot. And we're also going to be promoting the Right Response Conference in Georgetown, Texas, on the theme,

Theonomy and Post -Millennialism. And Dr. Joe Boot and Joel Webbin are a part of that speaking roster.

Let me welcome you to the program for the very first time, Joel Webbin. Thanks for having me.

I'm happy to be here. Why don't you let our listeners know something about Right Response Ministries? Yeah, so Right Response Ministries, I pastored a church in Southern California for a few years, went out there when

I was younger to plant a church. As I developed in my doctrine and theology, between that and COVID and a number of issues, just providentially, the

Lord guided my family and I and seven other households as well to leave

Southern California and to move to Texas. And so we're now in Central Texas, about 45 minutes north of Austin, Texas.

It's Georgetown, Texas. That's where the conference is going to be. May 5th, 6th, and 7th of 2023.

It's a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, the Theonomy and Post -Millennialism Conference, like you already mentioned. And we're planting a church here.

It's about 18 months old now, this church, about a year and a half, called Covenant Bible Church.

And so if anybody's listening from the Central Texas area, it would be covenantbible .org, covenantbible .org.

And so Right Response really started as, well, really it was just the social media wing of the church that I was pastoring in Southern California.

So it was just sermons, sermon clips, a few blogs, sometimes converting my sermon manuscripts into an article from time to time, things like that.

Maybe sharing some memes of, you know, a quote from Charles Spurgeon or a

Bible curse or something from Calvin. And it, you know, slowly but surely began to develop.

And then we decided to bifurcate it from the church when I was still there as pastor and for it to become its own nonprofit ministry, online ministry.

Kind of, you know, think like Ligonier is to St. Andrews, you know, or Desiring God, Bethlehem Baptists, you know.

So bifurcating that online presence, media ministry presence from the local church.

And so then, you know, when I decided to move locations and plant a new church, the ministry and its board came with me.

And in 2021, last year, I really took off and started getting thousands of downloads with our podcast and tens of thousands of views on YouTube.

And this year we're on track to hit, you know, two and a half, three million YouTube views with Right Response Ministries.

And I'm hoping by God's grace within the next couple of years that we can be in the tens of millions. So God has really, really blessed it.

We do a lot of podcasting, a lot of sermons, a lot of interviews with like -minded theologians and pastors, and that's what it's become.

Well, I'd like you to, as we have accustomed to do here, since you are a first -time guest,

I'd like you to give a summary of your salvation testimony that would include the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in and also whatever providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that led you to Himself and saved you. Yeah.

So I was raised Baptocostal, is probably the best way to put it. So an independent

Baptist church that was charismatic in its leaning, you know, continuationist.

So it was Baptist in terms of, you know, focus on global missions, personal evangelism, and, you know, in typical

Baptist fashion, you know, borrowing the fifth point of Calvinism, security of the believer, while not embracing the other points.

And then, you know, other than that, it was basically Pentecostal, kind of like a

Baptist version of assemblies of God. And so I grew up in that church atmosphere and, you know, developed relationships with a lot of wonderful people who really love the

Lord. I would disagree with a lot of the theology now, but it was a true church. You know,

I always bifurcate the difference between a true church and, you know, you can have a true or false church, and then you can have a good or bad church.

You know, you can have a true church that's, you know, kind of a bad church, but it is a true church. And you can have, you know, a true church that's a bad church and a true church that's a good church.

And so this was a true church that some of its doctrine was bad, but some really great people. So I was raised in that environment.

Later on, we ended up moving our family, and my dad became a senior pastor, and that church became a vineyard church.

So think John Wimber, Jack Deere. Yeah, like Calvary Chapel on steroids.

Yeah, exactly. It was Calvary Chapel, but the back room Calvary Chapel activities were in the front room.

That was the vineyard. Yeah, so vineyard did that for a while, and then the vineyard, you know, slowly became more progressive.

It wasn't egalitarian at first. John Wimber wasn't egalitarian, or at least not vocally.

But the vineyard now has female pastors. They're fully egalitarian.

I don't know where they went on, you know, some of the social justice issues of the last few years. So that was like middle school, high school.

And then I went to a school, two -year ministry training school, kind of like Bethel, you know, kind of like a school for witchcraft and wizardry.

It's called Christ for the Nations in Dallas, Texas. That came out of like the 1950s.

Yeah, we had one where I was raised on Long Island, New York.

I'm wondering if it is the same school. Probably not, not to my knowledge.

This was a charismatic school. Yes, and so this would be like what

I was saying earlier. I wouldn't consider just bad, but actually false doctrine. I mean, they would platform like Benny Hinn, you know, or Joyce Myers, or Cindy Jacobs, or Dutch Sheets, or lots of different individuals that I would feel comfortable saying are heretical and false teachers.

And so I was there for two years. I transferred to Dallas Baptist University and finished my undergrad.

Shortly after that, moved to California, thinking, I'm going to plant a church. And I, you know, only really knew the vineyard at the time.

So I went through their church planting assessment and, you know, and got their approval to plant a church well before I was really ready to do so.

And then God's sovereignty and mercy. It took, you know, probably about four years of being there, just kind of doing a glorified

Bible study in my living room with my, you know, my roommates. And finally, you know, the

Lord just slowly helped me in my doctrine, helped me in my character. I met a wonderful woman who fears the

Lord. We were married. And I'd say by about 2014, we were a real church.

By God's grace, I was qualified to be a pastor. We kind of replanted and restarted, fresh start, you know.

And at that point, 2014, we joined Acts 29. By that point,

I was, you know, a Calvinist. I had actually been a Calvinist since 2009, or actually 2007.

But by that point, I was, you know, realized the vineyard wasn't a good fit. I was a Calvinist, gravitating towards cessationism, different doctrines like that.

And so we joined Acts 29 because that's just kind of what I knew at the time. And I knew that they were

Reformed -ish, at least in their soteriology, their view of salvation. And so I did that all the way up until 2018.

2018 is where Eric Mason came out with his book, Woke Church. I was pretty publicly outspoken against that and a lot of the social justice warrior things that were happening.

Within the Acts 29 camp and the conferences, you had guys like Eric Mason.

You had, you know, you had Leonce Crump, Brandon Washington, a lot of different guys that were really pushing social justice.

And so I was concerned about that. I was also concerned with Chandler. He was just placing more and more emphasis on the sign gifts prophecy.

That's what he, around that time, came out with his sermon about pirate ships and sharks. You know, if you had a vision of pirate ships and sharks, maybe it's a prophecy from the

Lord. So ended up going ahead and pulling the trigger on leaving Acts 29. Still grateful for a lot of guys, good guys that were there, but was concerned about the direction.

And so by 2018, end of that year, we were just an independent church.

And we spent all of 2019 working towards becoming confessional, particular

Baptist, 1689 historic confession, being able to affirm that. By the end of 2019, we had made that transition.

A decent amount of people had left the church because they liked Acts 29. And they weren't on board with being confessionally reformed and different aspects of that.

And then 2020, after all this transition, boom, we couldn't even catch our breath, COVID hit.

And so then we were figuring out COVID and let the record state that Joel Levin and our church, we opened up before MacArthur.

Now, granted, it's maybe a little bit more complicated with a 7 ,000 person church to figure out the logistics.

But we opened back up and worshiped God publicly on the Lord's Day and defied the orders of Gavin Newsom, who is a tyrant who hates the

Lord. We pray that God would have mercy and save him. And then by the end of 2020, I just realized, you know what,

California is just not where I want to raise my kids. It's not where I want to be. Seven other households in the church agreed and wanted to come with us.

And I had another guy that, you know, we had some doctrinal differences. And I felt, you know, I think it's better if he takes the helm and continues, you know, with this church here.

And I just, you know, trust the Lord to bless a new endeavor. And so they blessed me and sent me to plant a new church.

And December 2020, we moved to Texas. And I started simultaneously planting

Covenant Bible Church and planting, you know, or I don't know, starting

Right Response Ministries. And so in terms of salvation, the last thing I'll say is just it's hard.

You know, Chris, it's hard to put a date on. When did you come to the Lord? And so my best guess is even when

I was seven years old and I was first baptized. And I really did ask

Jesus to be my Lord and Savior, trusting that he's the son of God, fully God, fully man, and that he died not merely as a moral example of sacrificial love for his friends, but he actually died as a substitute in my place.

I really believe that that happened when I was seven years old. But there were multiple other points where sometimes

I'm tempted to think maybe this is when I got saved, when I, you know, embraced the doctrines of grace and the fullness of God's sovereignty.

And so there are other points that could have been a moment of true salvation. But the more I think about it, the older I get,

I realize that as important as Reformed theology is, I don't want to underplay or minimize the simplicity and beauty of a sufficient gospel proclamation.

Amen. And what matters is you were saved, brother. That's what matters. And we have,

I believe we have Dr. Joe Boot finally has connected successfully. Can you hear us, brother?

Hi, Chris, I can hear you. Can you hear me OK? I can hear you completely well. And he is joining us from England.

Is it London, England? Yeah, just outside of London. And I was I'm not a tech,

I'm not a tech guy, but I was having a slight technical problem. And so it takes me a little longer than most.

So so but it wasn't as simple as the mute button, I assure you. Well, I can assure you it would have taken me a lot longer because I am probably less technologically astute than you are.

In fact, our mutual friend, Dr. James R. White, has been mocking me for decades over that.

But but now that we have you joining us, we have a custom here. Whenever we have a first time guest, we want them to give a brief summary of their salvation testimony.

That would include the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised and any kind of providential circumstances.

Our sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Well, thank you,

Chris. Yeah. Well, I think that's that's an encouraging way to to start an introduction.

I think that's not often done. Sometimes go straight for the juggler of the issues. I was raised in a

Christian home in England. My by the time I was 12 years old, my parents were planting, pastoring a church in the southwest of England in a small town called

Devizes near Bath. For those of you not familiar with the geography of the UK. And so I was raised in a in a home that was passionate about the gospel.

And it was a I actually grew up not in a reformed environment. I grew up in the Pentecostal church in England.

And I like to say I took the meat and I spat out the bones over the years. But what

I did get from from that, one of the things that I got from that was a was a love for the gospel, a recognition of the omnipotent power of the

Holy Spirit and a passion for reaching people.

And that really is what eventually led me into the field of Christian apologetics, a desire to really try and effectively communicate the gospel with my peers and a recognition that that requires a dependence on the power and work of the

Holy Spirit. So there were good things that came from my upbringing in that Christian community.

By the time I was about 20, my parents were missionaries then in Pakistan for about 15 years.

So I was both a sort of PK and an MK pastor's kid and a missionary kid by my by 1920 years of age.

But for me personally, anybody who's grown up in a Christian home, but especially the home of parents who are pastors or missionaries, know that various crunch times come in your life where you have to decide whether you are going to make the faith of your family and your parents your own.

And I entered into the study of philosophy, actually, in what we call in England A -levels.

That's sort of 16 through 18, where my faith confronted the main fundamental challenges that are thrown up against the

Christian gospel. But from a fairly rigorous philosophical point of view, so these weren't just your run of the mill objections to the faith,

I was dealing with things like religious language and arguments against the existence of God, logical positivism,

AJS, verification principle, all these kinds of things. And by God's grace, what

I found is that my actual faith and confidence in the Lord emerged stronger. And so as I look back,

I can't remember a time when I didn't know the Lord or love the Lord. But I do remember crunch moments of fundamental challenge where I knew

I was confronted with a choice between submitting to the Lordship of Christ and his word or walking away.

And by the grace of God, by the omnipotent working of the spirit, I was kept on course.

And actually, the rigor of some of those challenges to my faith early on really helped me develop a robust faith, a desire to develop a

Christian apologetic, even in my school years with my friends as a student, and then led on to a calling in my late teen years to ministry, in which

I ended up heading off to seminary when I was 18 years old. So that's a whistle stop tour of my early years and early life in England.

And it was filled with evangelism and some of it not so effective, some of it reasonably effective.

I think we tried pretty much everything in that town by way of seeking to reach it as a church plant community.

And I spent a great deal of time in music, actually, early on. My brothers and I had a musical outfit, a progressive

Christian rock band that toured up and down the country. We even went professional for a couple of years. And that's how, in the end,

I started a speaking ministry as a

Christian evangelist and apologist in the early years by sharing the gospel at various venues where the introduction was actually through music.

So it was an interesting route for me. And that was basically the beginnings of it. Now, how and when did you come to discover and embrace

Reformed theology? And also, I was just curious, since your Christian life began in Pentecostalism, has any of that been retained?

And when I say any of that, I mean in regard to the non -cessationist or continuationist element of Pentecostalism.

Well, the beginnings of my discovery of the Reformed faith happened on the cusp of my arrival at seminary when

I began to encounter the work of Francis Schaeffer and had begun some initial reading in C .S.

Lewis, who, of course, is not classically traditionally Reformed, but he was part of a Reformed community in the Anglican Church in Britain.

But I wasn't really truly exposed to the Reformed faith until I encountered the

Puritans, and that was in seminary. And one particular professor was a keen reader and teacher of the

Puritans. He was a competent teacher. His name was Robert Pickles, actually.

And it was through him that I was introduced to the English Puritans. And that began the journey for me, although it was by no means complete.

I began reading in my early 20s as I emerged from seminary, or during seminary, as I emerged from seminary, extensively the work and the preaching and teaching of both

Charles Haddon Spurgeon and Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones in England. And so by sort of 24,

I was really a convinced Reformed Christian. But it didn't take on its full development until about the age of 28, 29, when

I was very dissatisfied with classical Christian apologetics that I discovered the work of Cornelius Van Till.

And that began a 20 -year journey for me at about 28 into the world of the

Dutch Reformed thinkers and philosophers and theologians, from which I sort of haven't looked back.

As far as beyond the sense of the power of the

Holy Spirit, dependence upon the work of the Spirit, and a general passion for Christ and the

Gospel that I picked up from my background in the

Pentecostal churches as a child, for which

I am thankful to the Lord, I haven't retained a great deal from that tradition.

However, I would say, and this actually may be considered highly significant, that I'm not a convinced cessationist at all.

I read the cessationist material in my late 20s, mid to late 20s, with a strong desire actually to be convinced of the cessationist position.

But I found myself thoroughly unconvinced by it. So I wouldn't describe myself as a charismatic.

That word comes with far too much freight. But I'm not a cessationist. I do believe that there is a continuation of certain gifts in Scripture that I don't see anywhere in the

Bible where God says, well, I've drawn the line now. These are no longer available to my church. So that would not include the notion of some, because missiologists, of course, identify various waves of the

Pentecostal and charismatic movement. They'll talk about classical Pentecostalism and then the first wave and second and third and even fourth wave charismatics with all kinds of different novelties in there.

When I talk about being a non cessationist, I simply mean that I don't think we can lay down rules for God and say that gifts of healings or the gift of tongues for some people are excluded or ruled out in the life of the church.

So, yeah, that puts me perhaps in an interesting position within the reformed community.

But I am a non cessationist. If you just tuned us in, our two guests today are

Dr. Joe Boot, who is the founder and president of the Ezra Institute for Contemporary Christianity, and Joel Webben, who is the president and founder of Right Response Ministries and pastor of Covenant Bible Church in Georgetown, Texas.

During this first half of the program, we are addressing Dr. Boot's book, The Mission of God, A Manifesto of Hope for Society, and we'll also be discussing later on the

Right Response Conference in Georgetown, Texas, Theotomy and Postmillennialism featuring both of our guests.

If you have a question for Dr. Boot and Joel Webben, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Dr. Boot, this book, I happen to know, this massive book of yours that is nearly 700 pages long, has been used in powerful ways to,

I'm sure it's involved in the lives of many, many beyond the two people I'm going to mention.

But I know that according to his own profession, our mutual friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who was amillennial in his eschatological view, this book transformed his thinking radically, and he has publicly and openly and passionately adopted a postmillennial eschatology and even a theonomic one.

Also, the other individual who is not well known globally is the woman who led me to Christ in the 1980s, who up until recently,

I would say about a year ago, she held to a dispensationalist view.

She was a Calvinist, but a dispensationalist, much in the same way as a hero of mine,

Dr. John MacArthur, who I love in spite of our eschatological differences. And she is now also an enthusiastic postmillennialist and theonomist.

I happen to remain an optimistic amillennialist, but I am teachable, and I am not one of those who has dug my heels into the ground and refused to even consider this topic.

And it is a controversial topic to the point of disturbing me that there are so many who hate with a passion postmillennialism and perhaps especially theonomy, and I'm sure you know this.

There are members of my listening audience who have stopped supporting this program financially, because I interview so many theonomists.

There are people who, when they know I'm interviewing a theonomist, they don't listen.

And people also very often think I am a theonomist, because I interview so many so often.

And the reason for that is that my theonomic friends just happen to be brilliant Christians who have an authority on a very wide spectrum of subjects that even go far beyond eschatology.

In fact, most of the time I'm interviewing theonomists, we're not even talking about that subject. So, before I ask you why you think there is such hatred, even amongst our fellow

Reformed brethren, against postmillennialism and especially theonomy and reconstructionism, can you give us your definition of postmillennialism?

Because there is a wide variety of folks who identify themselves in that way, who disagree with each other.

In fact, when I last had a marathon on this program, it was eight days long, an eschatology marathon where I had different representatives every day defending their own particular eschatological view.

I had to have three different guests on to discuss postmillennialism, because they disagreed with each other on very important issues.

So, why don't you give us your definition? Yeah, well, I'm not sure that it's a simple thing to give a simple definition of postmillennialism.

As you well know, Chris, the terms are relatively new, but I can tell you what it means for me.

And the sort of maybe the distinctive feature, perhaps one of the key differences with some postmillennialists is whether they believe in a literal thousand -year sort of golden period for the gospel in the earth, and others don't.

Both views were present amongst the Puritans. But for me, eschatology is fundamentally about the meaning of history.

It's not just about last things. It's about first things. And my particular perspective, really, which certainly is not unique to me, is that since the resurrection, ascension, and especially the session of the

Lord Jesus Christ, to the right hand of all power and authority, and since Christ has sent his

Holy Spirit upon his people, the Father and the Son have sent the Holy Spirit upon the people of God, and all authority in heaven and earth belongs to the

Lord Jesus Christ, the meaning of history is that Christ will have the supremacy in all things.

And 1 Corinthians 15 makes clear that the order in which things are to happen, that Christ is reigning and he's subduing his enemies, and the last enemy to be defeated will be death.

Christ will hand over the kingdom to the Father, at which point the last enemy to be defeated will be death itself.

And so between the session of the Lord Jesus Christ, his resurrection, ascension, and session, and his second coming,

Christ is going to have the supremacy in everything.

Of the increase of his government and of his peace, there shall be no end. The earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the

Lord as the waters cover the sea. And so to me, a postmillennial vision is much more about the meaning of history, and the nature and character of the kingdom of God, and really that's what my book is primarily about.

And it's interesting to me actually that many people have come to a postmillennial conviction from reading it, because it's certainly not the focus of the book, it's there, but it's certainly not the focus of the book.

So whether or not I personally don't hold to a view of a literal thousand -year period of golden age for the gospel, but that that's a symbolic period in which tremendous success is seen for the gospel in this kingdom age.

And history is not a straight line at a right angle or a 45 -degree angle, heading constantly upwards from the ascension of the

Lord. It's very much like a spiral or an undulating path.

There are ups and downs. A rollercoaster. Yeah, very much so, very much like a rollercoaster.

Actually, I like the way sometimes my friend Doug Wilson puts it, that we are, in my conviction now, would be that we're perhaps in the latter part of the early church.

And whereas some people are waiting for the final moments to come,

I think history has a long way to go, and that the nations, we don't see as Hebrew says, all things subject to him, but it's all being made subject to him.

He is ruling and reigning, and everything is being brought into subjection. And, of course, post -millennialism could be easily misunderstood.

It is not universalism. It is not that everybody will be saved. It's not that even at a great period of success for the gospel in the nations that everybody is going to be saved.

But it does mean that Christ will have the victory. He will have the supremacy. He will have first place in all things, and that includes victory over the purposes of Satan in history.

He will build his church, and hell itself will not be able to hold out against it. So, for me, that is the meaning of post -millennialism.

It's the trajectory of the kingdom of God in history towards the total victory of the

Lord Jesus Christ. And just to let you know, and you likely know this, but there are post -millennialists who do believe that by the time

Christ returns, everyone on the planet will be saved.

I'm not saying that that is the majority view, but I've even interviewed post -millennialists who do adopt that or have adopted that position.

Well, I know that the kingdom of God is the focal point of the mission of God, and can you please explain what the scriptures teach about the kingdom of God and how it manifests itself?

Well, there's a series of programs right there, and that's why I want you back. I'm sure

Joel wants to get a word in. Great to be on this program with my friend Joel Webber as well. Well, for me, the importance of the reality of the kingdom of God is that it's the focal point of, it's the keynote of the

Bible. It's the focal point of Jesus' preaching and teaching and ministry. It's interesting, actually, that in the

Gospels, Jesus deals with the kingdom of God numerous times. Only in a couple of places does he have a special discussion about the church, the ecclesia.

So we've got two words there. We've got the ecclesia for the gathered congregation, the church, but we have the basileia, the kingdom, for the kingdom of God.

And the gospel itself is the gospel of the kingdom, which concerns the rule and reign and authority of the

Lord Jesus Christ. And so the importance of that is that I think in the recent history of the church, and, of course, not just in the recent history, but in the past, there's been a conflation or a collapsing of the concepts of ecclesia and basileia, of church and kingdom.

And we've one of, I think, the big mistakes that I try to address in the mission of God is the way in which the church has been unhelpfully conflated with the kingdom, as though the only place the kingdom of God is actually operative or functioning or manifest is in the life of the ecclesia, in the church institute.

And so sometimes we're not careful enough to differentiate between the kingdom of God, the body of Christ, as a global, invisible people, universal, global people throughout all of history.

And the church institute and a lot of modern evangelicalism tends to be disengaged from culture.

In other words, from law, politics, education, the arts, science, business, all these different areas of life are not thought about as needing to come under the lordship of Jesus Christ and his word specifically, because they've either shunted the kingdom of God off into a future age after the eschaton, or they believe that the church, the ecclesia itself is the kingdom of God.

And because they are closely related in the Bible, they've collapsed the two. But Jesus very clearly actually says to the

Jewish authorities, he says, the kingdom is taken from you. And it's given to a people who will bring forth its fruits.

Both concepts are active there. There is a distinction between the kingdom and the people. The kingdom is being given to a new people in and through the

Lord Jesus Christ. So the kingdom of God is a cosmic, much broader principle.

And it's the reality of God, of Christ's reign, God's reign, but specifically Christ's reign, the king of kings, the lord of lords, the ruler of the kings of the earth, over creation and within history.

And the church should always be on mission in terms of the kingdom of God. It does not exhaust the idea of the kingdom of God.

Neither can we imprison the rule and reign of God within the life of the church institute.

And so I think that particular issue is incredibly fundamental to a proper understanding of the kingdom of God and actually to addressing the real issues that are confronting the church today and often causing such confusion, maybe even some division, as you mentioned, in some cases, even some animosity, because, of course, the king, if there is a king, the

Lord Jesus Christ on his throne, and he's king of kings and lord of lords and present tense is ruler of the kings of the earth, then he must have a domain.

There's no such thing as a king without a kingdom. And every kingdom must have a law order.

And so these issues often, and you've actually mentioned it, they often go together.

And so often hostility to these ideas go together as well. So that in scripturally, the kingdom of God is about the reign of the

Lord Jesus Christ over every area of life, not just over the church institute, the

Ecclesia. It's about his body, his people being out in the earth on mission in terms of turning his creation into a

God glorifying culture through faith and obedience and faithfulness to the gospel and obedience to his

Lord. And so that will touch politics, the arts, education, economics, business and media and sports and entertainment and every single area of life, which is to be brought into subjection.

And that usually is the area where you get so much pushback. I actually don't think it's primarily and fundamentally about the decalogue or God's moral law, although antinomianism is a major problem.

I do think it's about a misunderstanding of what the Bible teaches about the kingdom of God.

The kingdom of God is that is cosmic in scope. It covers every area. And the church is to be on mission in service to the kingdom.

The kingdom isn't in service to the church. The church doesn't exist to serve itself or to enrich itself.

Now, before I go to a listener question and before I get a question from Joel Webben for you, can you answer a question that I asked in my introduction to you as far as why do you think?

I know that you're not a mind reader or a prophet, and I know that there's not one monolithic opposition to post -millennialism and theonomy.

But what possibly could get the those who disagree over this, amillennialists and premillennialists and dispensationalists?

What raises the eye or what gets them so furious about this issue?

It's mind boggling to me because, as I've already said, I'm amillennial, at least right now. And I don't get furious over discussing these issues with my brethren who are post -millennial and theonomic.

And I love them and I find them fascinating. So what is your opinion about what could be some of the reasons behind this angry opposition?

Well, I think there is a few reasons, as you said, and it's not it's not that straightforward because there will be different motivations for different people like you.

I do find it somewhat baffling that any Christian could be hostile to God's holy word, his holy law.

Paul the Apostle says very clearly the law is good if one uses it lawfully and the commandment is just and holy and good.

And the Lord Jesus Christ took Torah seriously. And that's how he defeated the temptations of Satan in the wilderness.

And he makes crystal clear in Matthew five in as the greater Moses, when he interprets the law on the

Sermon on the Mount, what we call the Sermon on the Mount today. That his law, he has not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, to bring it to its fullness, completion, to put it into force.

Why? Why any Christian would be hostile to God's holy standards?

The standards of his righteousness and justice is difficult to understand. It's also difficult to understand why we'd be so hostile to the notion of success for the gospel in history of the nations being gathered in.

It's got shades of Jonah about it, you know, sitting under the sitting under the tree and or sitting alone outside the city, moaning that God hasn't brought down fire and judgment upon Nineveh.

Feeling sorry for ourselves in that regard. One would think that it would be a matter of hope and rejoicing to the

Christian to believe that the earth is to be filled with the knowledge and the glory of the

Lord as the waters cover the sea. And the house gates will not hold out against the ecclesia, the church of Jesus Christ in service to the kingdom in history.

So it is it is difficult to fully understand. And I think one reason is that I think very often the popularity of different eschatologies are dictated by where we are in our historical context at any given time.

You see the growing popularity of dispensationalism, for example, after two world wars and the sense of hopelessness, a loss of optimism about the

West, a sense that the shattering of hope in the

Western world through those both those terrible wars. And so, although dispensationalism, of course, which came out of the

Plymouth Brethren, JN Darby and so forth in England in the latter part of the 19th century, certainly a theological novelty, though not the premillennial element within it became remarkably popular, especially in North America after those tragedies.

And I think when people see they think, well, our culture or our context is getting worse, we start to develop eschatologies of defeat, perhaps retreat and defeat and escape from the world.

And I think that feeds has certainly has played a part in feeding some of the animosity, hostility towards an optimistic eschatology.

That's certainly been part of it. Another aspect is that I think many people today, many

Christians are not keen on the cultural confrontation that's required today between the kingdom of God, the gospel of our

Lord Jesus Christ and a de -Christianizing West, because it's costly.

And if you're confronted with the gospel of the kingdom and an eschatological vision that requires cultural engagement, that requires prophetic confrontation with the world and not escape or retreat from the world, that's intimidating.

And we can feel as though our security is being threatened. We can feel as though it's going to cost us something that we don't want to pay if we're required to advance the kingdom in the way that an optimistic eschatology, whether it's optimistic or post mill would require of us.

And especially, of course, what is very often involved with that, a higher view of God's law and his kingdom, which means a confrontation between the law of God and the lawlessness of the culture.

So that would be a second reason. I think a third reason is the endemic nature of, maybe endemic is the wrong word, but certainly widespread issue we have in modern evangelicalism, sadly even in many of the reformed churches with antinomianism, that we have so allowed the culture and the world to invade the life of the church that we have become increasingly hostile to God's law, which is remarkable in and of itself.

I mean, this is the subject actually of one of the fellows of the Ezra Institute, a new book that Dr. Jonathan Burnside is writing at the moment, which

I'm looking forward to immensely, which will be dealing with. He's professor of biblical law at the

University of Bristol, which will be dealing with the history of the

West's engagement with biblical law right from before the time of even Alfred the

Great and the first codification of English law with the Ten Commandments, some of the case law of Moses, the

Book of Acts and so on. It's remarkable that since biblical law is nascent within Western society,

Western culture, and the last 60, 70 years has been a constant interaction with biblical law, largely repealing it in the

West, that we should find in the life of the church such hostility to the application of God's law.

For me, the basic meaning of theonomy, of course, you will know that the word translated law in the

English Torah is often translated also instruction, and it simply means to be in structure that as creatures of the living

God, every aspect of life, every sphere of life is governed by God's law. We are in structure, instruction, and we're bound, therefore, by God's goodness and kindness to us.

The condition of life is law. Do this, Jesus says, and you will live.

These are the old paths, walk in them. Whether it's the Torah itself or the prophetic literature calling

God's people back to the law, or whether it's David singing songs and writing poems about the law of God in Psalm 119, the longest chapter in the

Bible, or whether it's the wisdom literature where King Solomon is teaching his son

God's law in the Book of Proverbs, or whether it's the Lord Jesus exegeting the law to the people, or Paul teaching a societal, social use for the law in 1

Timothy 1, God's word is concerned with his law word, his covenant law word, and covenants are law and blood.

And there is new blood in the change in the priesthood of the blood of the

Lord Jesus Christ, but he gives no new law. Jesus does not declare a new Ten Commandments.

He simply upholds his own law, which he gave to Moses. So I think antinomianism has become rife.

Most Christians today, in my experience, couldn't even tell you what the Ten Commandments are in order. We used to display them on the walls of our churches.

We used to read them in the liturgies of our services on a Sunday. It used to be part of our everyday lives.

They even hung on, certainly in Britain, on the walls of the Crown Courts. The law of God was always before us.

It ceased to be before us, and I think it's almost as though many Christians are in a fresh encounter with God's law today, when they confront a theonomic perspective, and they find it difficult or they resent it.

And then fourthly and finally, I would say that, and this is endemic in the

Western Church because of our inheritance from the Greco -Roman world, and the synthesis era of Christianity with paganism, and what

I would call the scholastic era, which reaches its apogee with Thomas Aquinas.

We have this radical nature -grace distinction that has been so fundamental to so much

Western theology and thinking, which gives us these common divisions.

The way that we can describe it, perhaps as simply as Francis Schaeffer did, is to think of a double -decker bus, a two -story bus, to have a dualistic framework.

We've got the Greek view of nature on the lower deck.

That's where human reason, the mind of man, and his own polis, his own political organization, is sufficient for most of life, law, education, politics, culture, basically, is the lower deck of the bus.

The upper deck, grace, a super -added gift, is something that's there to really perfect nature.

The lower story, especially the life of the state, is kind of what supposedly

God uses to just maintain a certain amount of order. But God's revealed word and the logic of the

Lord Jesus Christ is not directly applicable to that lower deck, and on the upper deck we have the church,

Bible reading, evangelism, prayer, etc. That's spiritual life, that's grace, that's the really important stuff, what goes on in the upper deck.

That, what we might call the nature -grace divide, leads us to a secular -sacred divide, a radical law -gospel divide, and other such dualisms that have persisted in the life of the church.

The problem is the driver is always on the lower deck, and that's why the culture is being driven off a cliff right now, is that we've abandoned the lower deck to apostasy, and we've ecclesiasticized the gospel and the faith and the word of God.

When Christians are challenged about that, it can be quite intimidating, it can be quite disorienting to think that you may have been in a paradigm, in a philosophical paradigm, imprisoned your theology even in a particular paradigm that is incorrect.

And when that is challenged at such a root -and -branch level, it's destabilizing, and people can feel intimidated as though their very faith is under threat somehow, and I think that explains some of the hostility anyway to the issues you're talking about.

And we're going to our 10 -minute break, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, go to or send your email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back. Getting a driver's license. Running a cash register.

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Joe Boot and Joel Webbin. Let me ask a listener question. This is

Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. After hearing Jeff Durbin talk about the elders at Apologia Church reading

The Mission of God, I bought copies and gave them to our elders at my own church.

They have not read it yet and seem to hold to a two -kingdom view.

I have a hard time understanding how anyone can read and study the Holy Scriptures and can't see that Christ is

Lord over everything now. What advice would you give in trying to have conversations with my elders about this?

Two are dispensational and pre -tribulational, and one is covenant and a millennium, and I'm not sure what he means by that.

Maybe he means amillennial, unless that's a view that I haven't heard of, covenant and millennium.

If you could respond to Grady, and then we have to go to our midway break. Well, that's a good question.

I did address actually recently at a conference in California, the Balancing Conference, something of that issue, and I think those recordings would soon be available if they're not available already, so I would encourage your listeners to look at my lecture there and perhaps the

Q &A period as well in which I deal with some of that. I also have an extended chapter in my book,

Gothical Culture, a shorter book, dealing specifically with Two Kingdoms theology.

And Ezra Press also, for your listeners, publishes a book by one of our fellows, Willem Auernael, called

The World is Christ's, a critique of Two Kingdoms theology, and that's an extensive critique of it.

I think as you're dealing with pastors and elders, of course, it is really important to keep this dialogue

Christ -centered, Bible -centered, submitting ourselves to the word of God, to try and avoid sectarianism and the hostilities, but to try and encourage people to be ready to, if we're going to be truly reformed or truly

Protestant, we have to be constantly in reform. The Reformation, in that sense, isn't over. We can talk about the historic period called the

Reformation, which divided the Western Church, and that's important, but Calvin would never have imagined that with his book the church in reform is finished.

We're always in reform in terms of Christ's lordship and in terms of his word. So that's the way

I would begin to encourage pastors and elders to think about this. What have we still to learn? How can we still grow?

I would also encourage listeners who are in that sort of a situation to approach it from the worldview, philosophical side first.

I think diving in at the details of eschatology is not the best route, and it's only usually a symptom of the problem rather than the root of it.

What I've just talked about is the nature -grace problem and the failure to recognize the fundamental principles of sphere sovereignty, of Christ's lordship that your questioner was talking about over the different areas of life,

God's sovereignty in these different areas. The root of the problem typically lies there, and this just assumed nature -grace dualistic worldview that we inherited actually from Roman Catholicism, which is still held too tenaciously by Roman Catholicism because of the devotion to Thomism, to Thomas Aquinas.

Thomas was dealing with essentially two sources of authority, the Bible and human reason.

I think we need to get back fundamentally to Scripture and building a biblical world and life view.

So I would suggest that rather than diving in with arguments about eschatology, that you start at the worldview level.

I would put some of the, by God's grace, some of the success of my book,

Mission of God, down to the fact that it deals with the macro, the Christian worldview piece, and the underlying sort of philosophical undercurrents first.

Sometimes we fail to recognize that theology isn't a neutral discipline, and we come to various concepts in the

Bible with a set of assumptions, with a set of philosophical assumptions that also need to be brought into submission to the word of God.

And we need to be self -conscious about that. So I have actually written, I think particularly for your listener, a very little booklet.

It's called For Mission, The Need for Cultural Theology. And that might be a helpful start to elders and pastors who are struggling with this dualism, with this two kingdoms view, because it differentiates between church and kingdom properly, and in a straightforward way.

And I think that actually lies at the root of this. It's a failure to distinguish Ecclesia and Basileia, and it's a failure to be self -conscious about what we've inherited from Roman Catholicism and nature -grace dualistic divide, drawing a line through the

Bible in the wrong place. And that's where I would encourage listeners to start.

And I was wondering, Pastor Webben, if you have a question for Dr. Boot before he leaves? Yeah. Well, one of my questions would be, so we've gotten to spend some time together.

I'm super excited about you coming to the conference and speaking with us there. It's kind of a more personal question, but I've benefited so much from your teaching on postmillennialism and theonomy, and I know a lot of where you stand there.

But I was surprised to hear your position with an openness to continuationism, with the gifts.

And so I was just curious. I always assumed you were a cessationist. I always assumed with that, just hearing your theology, that you were also a

Paedo -Baptist. But now I'm wondering, hey, I wonder if he's a Credo -Baptist, too. What are you?

What on earth are you? Oh, I certainly don't want to disappoint anyone.

But thank you, Joel. Yeah, I think a lot of people, of course, because I defend publicly a reformed and reformational perspective, that I must hold some sort of path line on the gifts of the

Holy Spirit. I don't see that fundamentally as an issue of being reformed or non -reformed.

In fact, there are actually reformed church movements in the

United Kingdom that are explicitly continuationist. And the

Anglican Church, the Church of England, the strongest churches within the Church of England in Britain are evangelical.

The Church of England is a reformed church movement, as you know, the 39 Articles of the Church. And many of the strongest ones, excuse me, in the

United Kingdom would also be continuationist or gently charismatic.

Gently charismatic, I like how you put that. Yeah. So it's so, you know, it wasn't just my experience within Pentecostalism, but also within within the

Anglican Church, where you see a strength, actually, of these churches that are continuationist.

They're often growing fast, but without being extreme or wacky.

I would sort of encourage people to reflect on this in terms of a reformational vision and of a post -millennial vision, that if we're going to get the job done by God's grace and Christ is building his church and extending his kingdom, that we need the power of the

Holy Spirit active in our lives in a profound way. We know that it's the

Holy Spirit who's convincing the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment. And at Pentecost, we see a real baptism of power.

And it wasn't a one -off event, because we see the disciples being filled with the

Spirit again a couple of chapters later. So this was about power and authority for witness.

This was about an endowment that the Holy Spirit is giving in terms of a resource.

Himself, his person, is giving himself.

God, the Holy Spirit, is given to us and endues us and fills us with power and is dunamis for this task, because we can't do it on our own.

And so Paul encourages the church, doesn't he, go on being filled. It's an ongoing thing.

I think one of the big mistakes that many of the Pentecostals made was to talk about a one -off experience at some point in their lives where they were filled with the

Spirit. But I think this is the birthright of every believer to know the fullness of the power and working of the

Holy Spirit. And we see the church, the early church in the

Book of Acts, expressing the life and power of the

Holy Spirit in their lives. So for me, that's what it's about. I'm not really interested in the sort of the wrangles and the debates and the sort of, and certainly

I think the distractions of the extreme end of the charismatic movements. What I am interested in, though, is that we as God's people, as his church, as we seek the kingdom of God and its fullness through the

Lord Jesus Christ, that it's coming about by the Spirit's power. And I don't want to neglect anything that God, the

Holy Spirit, is giving to his people to see that task done. So that would be where my openness to what the

Holy Spirit is wanting to do among his people. Of course, I reject the notion of revelatory gifts or continuations of apostolic ministries of the nature of the apostles and prophets on which the church is built.

There have been some very extreme movements in the last, as you know, Joel, decades of people claiming all kinds of bizarre and wacky things.

Now, the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, but he's given us of his Spirit. And if we believe in the sovereignty of God, because we're reformed, we won't want to put the

Holy Spirit in a box and say you can't do this or you can't do that. Yeah, I agree with you.

I totally understand. And I'm certainly not going to debate you on Chris's show. But, you know, it's funny.

I kind of got a glimpse of the whole gambit. You know, I was a part of Christ for the Nations with, you know,

I mean, there was Joyce Myers and Benny Hinn and people like that. But then I also, a lot of people don't know this about me, but I helped lead a prophetic team when

I was a member of Jack Deere's church, who wrote Surprised by the Voice of God, Surprised by the Holy Spirit, who was, you know, somewhat discipled by John Wimber and good friends with Wayne Grudem and Sam Storms.

And so I definitely have been in that world. I've seen the craziness where I would say it's actually heretical and false teaching.

And then I've seen milder and more careful expressions with guys who really do love the

Word of God. Sam Storms, I think, loves the Word of God. He's reformed. He's a Calvinist. Wayne Grudem wouldn't be another example.

Say what you will about Wayne Grudem, you know, but I remember his disagreement with Piper before the 2016 election with Trump.

And he said, if we get Trump, we will get three Supreme Court justices and we could overturn Roe. And my gosh, if anything will make you think maybe there's prophecy.

So Wayne Grudem nailed that one. So anyways, all that to say, but you still didn't answer my question.

Are you a credo or pedobaptist? I will answer that.

And let me just say one thing before I do and respond to your helpful comments there.

It's interesting that one of the most important reformed ministers in England who was instrumental in the recovery of the

Puritans in the UK and a profound influence on a man of the stature of J .I.

Packer was Martin Lloyd -Jones. And I'm sure you're familiar with his ministry.

And he wrote quite extensively on this issue of the work of the spirit. And he was actually a friend of George Jeffries, who was the founder of the

Eastern Pentecostal movement in the United Kingdom. And I actually have sort of I would say that my position on that issue is probably been most influenced by the writings of Dr.

Lloyd -Jones. There's a number of things I significantly disagree with Lloyd -Jones on, particularly in the area of apologetics and the role of Christian philosophy.

And I think some of the pietism and quietism in his thought. But on this, I think he was very good in bringing into the reformed consciousness the importance and role of the work of the spirit.

On the on the baptism issue, you may be dissatisfied with my answer.

The I have worshipped and served in both Credo and Pedo Baptist communities over the last, gosh, 30 years.

And of course, we would both agree that there are wonderful and faithful believers in both.

I tend to take a John Bunyan, a great Puritan perspective on this is that I would say that I'm a non -sectarian on the baptism issue.

Perhaps the closest I can get to answering the question would be to say that I believe in the validity of both forms of baptism,

Credo baptism and Pedo baptism. I think that one group baptizes in anticipation of the fulfillment of the covenant promise and then adds an additional service, an additional rite of passage, if you will.

Either we call it either confession of faith or confirmation at that sort of 12, 13 years of age, usually to be a communicant at the

Lord's table within the church. And we might say that that's a sort of extra biblical service.

And then we in the Credo side, we have we tend to baptize on confession of the fulfillment of the covenant.

If we're reformed and have a strong understanding of the covenant, we see that as that covenant promise to our children is fulfilled, they're baptized on confession of their faith.

And we typically in the Credo communities as well, then we'll add our extra biblical service of dedication when the children are babies.

And because I've served in both contexts, I mean, I remember when I was serving in the

Credo Baptist community, I was accused of doing dry baptisms because my my dedications were so covenantal and I was using anointing oil and so on and so forth.

I've also worshipped and served within the as an associate pastor within the director of evangelism within the

Anglican community in England. So I have very dear friends in both.

And I don't think it's a debate that is going to be settled this side of the eschaton. I could be wrong.

I don't think it's gonna be settled either. And I think it's similar if I could just kind of zoom out to the 30 ,000 foot view, both what you're saying in regards to the sign gifts and what we're talking about with baptism.

I do agree that we can't embrace heretics, but we do have to sometimes reform guys.

They want to they want to continue to to particularize and particularize and split and split and narrow and narrow until all the guys with right theology we can fit inside of a van.

And we're just not going to win with that mentality. And so I think there has to be a big tent mentality, whether whether it's

Doug Wilson's mere Christendom or Stephen Wolfe's. You know, so you and I both could probably get.

So I've been talking to Stephen Wolfe offline. I had him on my show. I'm grateful for him. Cannon published the book

Christian nationalism, but he's a Thomist. I'm not, you know, you're not. But I'm like, hey, you know what?

But he got to all 10 commandments. Now, I, you know, he's doing natural law. He's doing. And I always want to remind people.

Yeah, but God also wrote a book. Remember that? God wrote a book. We can use the book. You know, divine revelation is a thing.

And we can, you know, and so but he's you know, he's working a little bit more with natural law emphasis, which which we both affirm.

But a little bit more Aristotle baptized by, you know, but Aquinas and some of those kinds of things.

But but he's landing still. There's some problems, but he's landing on this the same conclusion, or at least very, very close.

There are 10 commandments. They're not just for Christian people, but for all people in all times and all places.

And the civil magistrate has a duty and moral obligation from God himself to be

God's deacon and to enforce all 10 of the commandments in just ways for all society as a common grace gift to man.

The gospel might flourish. And so I'm like, yeah. Okay. You know what? If some Thomas want to hop on board with this vision, you've got some debates to settle down the road.

But you're my point is the 30 ,000 foot view of what you're saying, whether it be baptism. So baptism, especially

Thomism, you know, maybe to a lighter degree. There are some problems that come with that, you know, but then gifts of the spirit that one.

I'm a little bit more hesitant. I am a cessationist. But but for me, it's it's regulatory gifts that are most concerned about depends how you define tongues and is tongues regulatory, which

I personally think it is. But but the point still remains in tongues or gifts, baptism, and even the

Thomas guys, the Stephen Wolf expression of Christian nationalism. If we put it under a big tent of this mere

Christendom, the reason why Christendom has flourished in the past and by God's grace, Christendom 2 .0

can flourish again in the future is is if we recognize that the spirit of God is at work in many, many people who don't agree on everything.

And and the thing that we can't do that has hurt Christendom in the past is when

Christians start executing each other for wrong views of baptism. We just we've got to avoid the we've got to avoid at all costs.

The circular firing squad. Yes. Has gone on in the church, but even in reform circles.

And as you say, you know, a lot of the young the younger crowd who in their passion and enthusiasm discover the reform faith want to, as you say, so narrowly define what they mean by reform.

But eventually, as you say, there's just a van. There's just a van load of them who are actually truly orthodox.

I think that the the the this is I think what you said there is good.

I like what you said. I think that the the part of the post mill trajectory is not that we will water down these debates or discussion, but they would be had in a robust and faithful and loving way.

But that those who, you know, I see, you know, these steps that you're talking about from others in the

Thomas camp is, you know, just keep coming. Keep coming. Right. Exactly. That's just come a little just come a little further.

It's like I'd say to Chris is optimistic. Just keep coming, brother. And, you know, there's this old joke.

You may have heard it before about the the Dutch reformed guy who landed on a on a desert island and was lost and marooned on a desert island alone for about twenty five years.

And he was finally discovered by a passing ship. And he was he had a fire going and they saw the signal and they arrived on this island.

And when they arrived, they noticed that there were three structures that he had built on this island, even though he lived alone.

And they said to him, well, what what are these? What are these structures you have here? And he pointed to the first one.

He said, that's my home. He pointed to the second one and he said, that's my church. He pointed to the third and he said, and that's the church

I used to go. And I think that that is part of the that's part of the challenge that in these the importance of these discussions.

And I do think that, you know, that you mentioned the discussions around Thomism. And I think there's legitimate discussions to be had around the gifts of the spirit and so on.

That those of us who name the name of Christ, who are submitted to his word, you have this broadly reformed understanding of Christ's sovereignty over all things.

We mustn't major on minors and we mustn't divide over secondaries. Well, Dr.

Book, do you have time for one more listener question? Yes, sir. One more. Okay, we have a

Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who asks, you were talking before about why people hate theonomy and postmillennialism.

One thing that I have heard, and it is ironic because this is typically from Armenian dispensationalists, that we who are postmillennial and theonomic add the works of men to bring godly transformation to society, as opposed to God bringing the fruit to rise through his own sovereign will and spiritual power.

How do you respond to these people who seem to be arguing from a Calvinist side, even though they're

Armenians, ironically? Yes, well, the listener is astute to pick up on the irony there, given the

Armenian soteriology of what man is contributing to his salvation.

So I think, yeah, those kinds of objections are largely built around a complete misunderstanding.

Jesus Christ says that he will build his church. And he also tells us that hell itself won't hold out against the people of God.

But he also tells us about the kingdom of God. And the images and the pictures that he gives us of the kingdom are always of growth and development and expansion.

So it's like the leaven in the loaf. It's like the mustard seed. It starts very small, as though a puff of wind can blow it away.

It becomes the tallest plant in the garden. So the kingdom of God is something that is growing, developing, expanding.

And the reality of that is that God appoints means as well as ends.

And all good reformed people know that this is the case. When we say

God is sovereign and that God is building his church or that he's extending his kingdom, we don't mean that we sit passively by and do nothing, as though God has no means to accomplish his ends.

He has appointed us to bear fruit. That's what the

Scripture explicitly tells us, that we've been created in Christ Jesus for good works.

And one of the key questions we see in the Scriptures is, what must I do that I might work the works of God?

That's putting our faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and then living in obedience. And so Paul adopts a variety of metaphors for the

Christian life. One of them is soldiering. That involves fighting in the spiritual conflict that we're in.

He takes the image of the ambassador as well. We are Christ's ambassadors.

So if you're, especially if you're British, you understand that the role of an ambassador or a high commissioner is one who is representing crown authority in another territory.

And so the Christian is representing the crown authority of Christ the king, wherever they are placed in the earth.

We are ambassadors. And so the apostle Paul says that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, and he has given us a ministry of reconciliation.

We are his co -workers, co -laborers. So one of the biggest misunderstandings of Calvinism, and especially of a reformational, transformationalist, or post -millennial vision of history, is that somehow this would imply a static, passive, non -engaged.

On the one hand, those who misunderstand Calvinism see it as a non -engaged, passive theology, which it absolutely is not.

It's the opposite of that. Or others would pivot and say, well, if it's optimistic and transformationalist, then it is somehow activist, or we believe in political salvation by man, or we believe that man is building

God's kingdom for him. None of those are true. It's God in Christ who is reconciling the world to himself, giving us a ministry of reconciliation as his co -workers so that the

Holy Spirit is making his appeal through us. God is making his appeal through us be reconciled to God.

We don't say God is sovereign, therefore don't pray. God is sovereign, therefore don't teach your children.

God is sovereign, therefore don't preach the word of God, witness to your neighbor.

God is sovereign, therefore don't engage the culture. So the opposite is true. It's because God is sovereign and is able to work his will and purpose through us that we act, that we live in faith and obedience to his word in every department of life.

So a related objection is often that somehow the

Reformation or theologic vision is legalistic, that we're all about imposing

God's law and we're Pharisaic in some way. But actually the sin of the Pharisees wasn't their love of God's law or obedience to it.

It was that they knew that neither knew the scriptures, Jesus said, nor the power of God, and that they substituted their tradition in place of the word of God and made

God's law of no effect, Jesus said. They threw a millstone around people's necks with their own idea of law, with their own traditions, their own moral traditions, and didn't lift a finger to help others lift it, instead of living in obedience to the law of liberty, as James calls it, and the law of love, which the

Apostle John calls it and says in Romans 13. So the most, in my experience, the most gracious, the most non -legalistic, and actually the most loving

Christians that I have encountered in my Christian life are those who have a high view of God's law and an optimistic view of the future and believe that the

Christian must be engaged in the work of the kingdom as an ambassador of God.

It's actually people who are antinomian and reject God's law, who put their own personal proclivities and regional holiness in the place of God's law, who are on the horns of a

Pharisaic and legalistic faith. So that's truly been my experience.

If you want to meet a gracious, loving, serving, faithful believer, look no further than certainly the theonomic optimistic believers that I'm acquainted with.

Well, it has been a joy, Dr. Boot, to have you on the program. I want to mention your website if anybody wants to find out more about the book,

The Mission of God, and all of your writings and all about this ministry and your personal participation in it.

Go to EzraInstitute .com. EzraInstitute .com. I look forward to your return in the future and I hope it's soon,

Dr. Boot, and I hope that your returns are frequent as well. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you, Chris, for having me. And thank you, Joel, for spending time with us this evening as well. The floor is yours for the last 20 minutes here.

Hey, real quick, Dr. Boot, before you go, I heard you do a commercial on the Ezra Institute. I think it was

Nathan Oblux, so tell him for me. The conference is not in Waco. It's in Georgetown, Texas.

It's an hour from Waco. Georgetown. That is correct. I apologize for that. You can't get in staff these days.

Just to clarify, it's Georgetown. We look forward to being there. Well, God bless you,

Dr. Boot. And we're going to our final station break, folks. So if you have a question for Joel Webbin, our email address is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Joel Webben, before I go to another listener question, tell us why in your opinion, your biblically informed opinion, your understanding of eschatology has an impact for the better, obviously you would believe, upon all other areas of Christian life, upon evangelism, upon discipleship, upon benevolence and kindness and compassion.

To the poor and less fortunate, and we could go on and on about all the areas of life that involve a

Christian witness and presence in the world. Why is your view, post -millennial and theonomic, a benefit to the

Christian church in the world today? Yeah, because I, in embracing post -millennialism,

I'd already embraced Reformed theology, and now being Reformed and post -millennial, I guess the way

I would word it is I feel like I have both of the wills of God on my side. So, you know,

Reformed theologians are fond of speaking of the two wills of God. The moral will of God, or revealed will of God, that which is in the

Scripture, the things that He has revealed to us, belong to us and our children forever, you know, but the hidden things belong to God.

So we have the revealed will of God, His moral will, prescriptive will, and then the hidden will of God, the things that His sovereign will, you know, like God in His sovereign will,

He allows for sickness and suffering and sin. And so I think when

I wasn't post -millennial, the only category I had for obedience in things such as evangelism, parenting, you know, what

I do with my children, what I do with my family in evangelism, and then all these other realms of life, vocation, economics, markets, art.

Film, all these other things, you know, what's going on in the medical industry and whether or not, you know, pharmaceutical companies are credible or this or that.

Like, it just, it didn't really matter. I felt like if it mattered, it only mattered in the sense of God's moral will.

He tells us to be righteous. He tells us to be obedient. He tells us to honor Him, but in His sovereign will,

He's determined that all of these efforts will ultimately fail. So the only point is just to be obedient.

But in a sense, you're obeying the moral will of God, but working against His sovereign will, if that makes sense.

And to align those and see, you know, these things that God has called me to do, it's not only morally right, it's not only scriptural commands, but it's also the vehicle that God has ordained in His sovereign will to bring about His kingdom and His victorious reign on earth that makes a difference in the way that you live and what you value.

And so I'll sum it up by saying this. I always tell people, you know, when they say, well, you know, pre -mill, dispensational pre -mill, or historic pre -mill, or all that, like, we all believe that Jesus is going to be victorious.

And that's true. So, you know, we don't want to straw man someone that we disagree with.

Every eschatology, every Christian believes that Christ will emerge ultimately victorious.

The difference is, in a word, is whether or not Christ will win despite the church or Christ will win through the church.

And that's really what it comes down to. Is Christ going to win despite a losing church, a small dwindling remnant that's barely surviving, barely holding on?

Will Christ win despite a losing church, or will Christ win? Does His victory, is it ushered in through a militant and victorious church?

And I now believe the latter. And that changes the way you plant churches, the way you preach, the way you invest money.

Whether or not you really think you're going, if you're my age, 36, whether or not you actually think you're going to have great grandchildren, and what you plan to set up for them.

It changes everything. It changes whether you live in California or Texas. I believe that there's an impact.

All these different things. From where do you live? Everything, politically, culturally, financially, it changes the way you think.

It changes from having a five -year plan to a 500 -year plan. Christians need, if we're going to really be successful, we need to have a 500 -year plan again.

You look at some of the cathedrals, like the Cathedral of Notre Dame, and a fire couldn't even take it out.

These things were built not just to be aesthetically transcendent and beautiful, but also to be long -lasting and durable.

They built a church really thinking it was going to be around for 500 years.

And I think that kind of Christian mentality, Jonathan Edwards was post -millennial.

You look at the lineage of Jonathan Edwards, how many of his children became lawyers, doctors, state senators, governors.

It's remarkable when you actually think that Christ made Terry for a while, and as he does, that he plans to rule and reign through the church, not despite a losing church.

We have Christian in Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says,

Are you also, in addition to being a post -millennialist and a theonomist, a partial preterist, or as Gary DeMar prefers to call it, a partial futurist?

Right. Yes, I am a partial preterist. If you could define that, please. Yeah, so preterist, preterism,

Latin, it just means past, fulfilled. So what we mean by that when we say partial preterist is that we're saying partial, so not all, but a sizable portion of certain prophetic literature in the

Scripture has already been fulfilled. So a great example would be Matthew chapter 24, all of that discourse that Christ has with his followers.

Post -millennials would believe that Matthew 24 has been fulfilled, that this

Jesus, you know, he says, I tell you the truth, that this temple will be destroyed and not one stone will be found on another.

And then right out of that, that's kind of the sign, the proof, the evidence. And right out of that,

Jesus speaks of many other things that are soon to take place before this generation passes away.

And I don't think he means before this type of generation. And, you know, we'll always have unbelieving, stubborn, you know, generations until Christ's final return.

And so, you know, I think he means these flesh and blood. You guys, this generation will not pass away, a generation being about 40 years in their custom.

And lo and behold, sure enough, about 40 years from the words of Christ saying these things.

And all of a sudden it's 80, 70, the fall of Jerusalem. And I mean, even

Josephus, you know, the Jewish historian said that, you know, he interviewed people. There were many eyewitnesses that said they were actually there in Jerusalem and its destruction and the destruction of the temple.

It even said that the sky was darkened with smoke and clouds.

And that the moon seemed to be turned blood red with ashes in the air.

And that some people even witnessed seeing angelic hosts upon the clouds.

The clouds, coming on the clouds, that's judgment language. That's what we find in Joel, the prophet Joel chapter 2.

Multiple places, Isaiah, multiple places throughout the scripture, this coming on the clouds. So anyways, all that being said, a preterist is someone who believes preterism is just past fulfilled.

So it's taking certain prophecies in primarily the New Testament and saying that at least some of these have already been fulfilled.

That in a sense that Jesus did not return physically in 87. But we believe there was a spiritual return of Christ for the purpose of judgment on the people of Israel for rejecting him as the

Messiah. And that that took place in 8070. The destruction of the temple was complete exactly like he said it was.

And so Matthew 24 is not talking about a future return of Christ in speaking in our future.

A physical, the final or ultimate physical return of Christ, but rather a spiritual return of Christ that was in their future, the audience that Jesus was speaking to, but is in our distant past.

So preterism, past fulfilled. That's what it means. Partial preterist is saying some of these prophecies like Matthew 24 are past and fulfilled, but some of them are yet to be fulfilled.

And so I, you know, not a fan at all of full preterism. I think the full preterism is incredibly dangerous and in just about every case winds up in heresy.

And so I reject full preterism. The reason why is full preterism would be or hyper preterism is the idea that all the prophecies in Scripture have been fulfilled, which would include the bodily resurrection of the dead.

That would include the physical and final return of Christ to judge both the living and the dead.

That would include a final, a final culmination and end to human history and the finalizing of Christ's victory.

A full preterist, for the most part, there's some variance, but for the most part, believes that this is kind of all there is and it's just going to go on and on and on.

So all that being said, yes, I am a partial preterist. R .C. Sproul was a partial preterist.

His famous teaching series, The Last Days According to Jesus, is just an in -depth, multiple part study through Matthew 24.

They're all about discourse and saying, hey guys, this already happened. R .C. Sproul's not saying everything has happened, but he's saying this happened.

A lot of the book of Revelation has already happened, but not all of it. We're waiting for chapter 20, 21.

The end, the last couple chapters of the book of Revelation is yet to be fulfilled. There are certain prophecies in Isaiah and Jeremiah that are yet to be fulfilled.

And so we're still waiting. There is a future physical return of Christ to judge the living and the dead, a bodily resurrection of the dead, an end to human history, and a finalization of Christ's victory over sin,

Satan, sin, Satan, and death. And we are waiting for these things.

It's going to happen. But other things are not yet fulfilled. And we are out of time.

We're out of time, brother. We've got to go. But I thank you so much for being such a superb guest, and I look forward to having you back on the show.

I want to repeat that the conference, the Right Response Conference on Postmillennialism and Theonomy, is

May 5th through the 7th in 2023 in Georgetown, Texas. And if you want more details, go to rightresponseconference .com.

Rightresponseconference .com. It features Dr. Gary DeMar, Dr. Joseph Boot, Dr. James White, our guest today,

Joel Webben, and Dale Partridge. And I want to thank you again. I want to thank all of our listeners.

And by the way, our listeners who submitted questions are all getting a free copy of The Mission of God, a massive nearly 700 -page book.

Everyone except Grady, who already purchased the book. And I want to thank you all for listening, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater